* * *
Ok, you really have to hear the background of this next post. The other day I was tweeting with a guy whose Twitter handle is @fivesolasguy, (Brian Thornton.) He responded to a couple of tweets of mine and I have to be honest with you, his words felt very familiar to me. The following is a good sampling of our conversation.
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Eventually, I got tired of the same runaround and so I said “gotta run” or something similar a couple of times. I continued to get more tweets after saying I had to go (notifications come to my smart phone) and I didn’t want to have to keep picking up my phone for the same guy tweeting the same ol’ stuff and so I blocked him. I think I have only one other person blocked in my 1+ yrs of tweeting.
Well, yesterday, I noticed Mr. Thornton came here to the blog and posted a couple of comments. He questioned why I blocked him on Twitter. So, I went back to Twitter to see what was going on. Apparently, he had tweeted and tagged me quite a bit. I found the evidence on Aug. 9 in which he spouted off publicly about me for blocking him. JA did something she doesn’t allow her kids to do – she rolled her eyes.
* * *
* * *
Wow – those are 6 tweets in a row. There were more, too. I couldn’t tell if the tweeting occurred all at once or throughout the day. I realized that this guy was obviously trying to get some message across to me and not satisfied with my earlier responses and so I gave him an offer to say whatever he’s trying to say in a paragraph or two and I’d post it here on the blog. (You might consider clicking on that link. The exchange is pretty funny – – one of our regular readers, Eric Fry, saw what was going on and put his TX cowboy boots on. Yea, he cut to the chase.) I figured why not – we could try to discuss it here with complete sentences and paragraphs without the Twitter character limitations and just be done with it already.
Hey, what do you know, he took me up on it. You can tell from the tweets above that we both were getting frustrated. Twitter can be very effective or it can be very ineffective. Our conversation was not getting anywhere.
But check out what he wrote. I can’t believe it’s the same guy. It definitely gives more insight into his tweets. The only edit I made was to break up a long paragraph, otherwise, this is exactly Mr. Thornton’s content. I’m looking forward to the discussion.
* * * * * *
A Call for Reasoned Discernment Before Judgment Is Made Upon Others
My wife and I have experienced what is known as spiritual abuse at the hands of a pastor who went to great lengths to “lord it over” his flock. He would arrive at your doorstep unannounced to rebuke you for not attending a service, have others call you out and rebuke you for some comments you made at a small group gathering, and would even verbally chastise you and threaten to remove you from membership if you did not repent of a particular sin he was convinced you had.
When I finally concluded that this guy was beyond the possibility of being reasoned with, I removed my wife and family from his spiritually oppressive influence. This guy was off the chain, so to speak, and I would not allow him to exert his unbiblical and sinful attempts to control us any longer.
My experience had made me a prime candidate to resist any future submission to a pastor/elder/shepherd (it did, in fact, result in me being hyper-critical for several years following that experience). But, in spite of what we went through, I remain convinced of the Bible’s teaching concerning the submission of Christians to their church leaders. Sadly, though, I fear that there are many who experience similar things that we did who become overly cynical, distrusting, and critical of anyone who teaches the biblical truth concerning the authority of church leaders over their congregations. Simply put, bad experiences do not negate the truth of God’s Word. And they don’t give us unfettered license to rail against anyone we believe is abusing their authority.
One of the main mistakes we can make (especially those of us who have experienced abusive practices firsthand from church leaders) is that, going forward, we fail to give others the benefit of the doubt. Paul said that love “bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things”, and I believe part of what Paul is saying there is that our love for one another inside the church will include an attitude and heart of trust, rather than distrust. Our love for one another, rooted in the common bond we have IN Christ, will (should) translate into carefully researched conclusions and comments regarding another’s supposed position on church authority, for example. That love will result in, not publicly expressed suspicion the moment we see a red flag or questionable information, but will instead lead us to make sure that we are counting others as more important than ourselves, which will hopefully result in us reserving judgment until we are sure of the truth. I have been guilty of this more times than I can count.
Another common mistake we tend to make is that we will attack and judge and critique something based upon what someone has written rather than how what has been written actually gets fleshed out in real life. For example, someone reads on a web site article about someone’s position on the church’s authority over a Christian, and they draw all sorts of conclusions and preconceived opinions, not based upon what actually occurs in real life, but rather based upon what was written. I have been guilty of this quite recently. I strongly disagreed with a particular “method” for doing something as it was written and explained on paper, and I began to passionately attack that method with much vigor and emotion. However, when I took a step back and decided to see how that method was actually being fleshed out in real life, my conclusions were completely opposite from my initial judgments. We can erect all manor [sic] of straw men that we can easily knock down (or burn in effigy), when the truth is all we’ve done is malign another member of the body of Christ for no good reason. Make no mistake, there are those who take advantage of others and abuse their authority in the church. And they must be exposed and stopped. But, every red flag is not a cause for misinformed declarations against others who profess Christ. When we do that, we very well may be bringing down someone who is truly on our side. And for what reason? Because we didn’t give the benefit of the doubt, or we didn’t do our homework, or we attacked some words in an article rather than examined real life actions. When that happens, we have acted no differently and no better than those we are accusing of wrong-doing.
I pray we would all grow in the grace of our Lord and Savior as we bear, believe, hope, and endure all things for the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ. May we seek to be well-informed, truly discerning members of the church.
Brian Thornton
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Thanks lydiasellerofpurple for the info.
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The only edit I made was to break up a long paragraph, otherwise, this is exactly Mr. Thornton’s content.
Because nothing says “Kook Rant” like a grossly-overlong paragraph.
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“Kook Rant” Hmm, has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it. 🙂 Gave me a chuckle, too.
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“Kook Rant”…Kind of describes most of the comments on here. 😉
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Brian said:
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Brian was having a twitter conversation with another Eric:
I’m not sure that we have come to an agreement on what authority means. Have we really done that? I know we talked about it a bit, but I can’t agree with Brian’s tweet here yet until I have better I feel we’re on the same page with the definition. Thoughts?
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I like Wade Burleson’s sermon, “Only Servants, No Masters,” which looks closely at every verse authoritarian pastors use and demolishes their interpretation. It’s worth the 27 minutes.
Video: http://vimeo.com/69920147
Video and comments: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/07/13/echurchwartburg-7-14-13/
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Now, now, Brian. You can’t be serious when you say: “Kind of describes most of the comments on here.” I trust that you were just joking. I find that there has been much wisdom posted here by many people–people who know by experience as well as those who have taken the time to further research these issues in the church today. This has been healthy dialog, IMO.
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He put a winky face emoticon.
I think there has been good discussion, but there has been the occasional snark and I do want to make our guest feel welcome.
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You can’t have everyone in the church be only “servants” with no leaders with the authority to lead, shepherd, and make decisions. You’d have the whole church headed for a disaster of biblical proportions…real wrath-of-God type stuff! Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!
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Yes, just checking–on behalf of the sight-challenged, that it really was a ‘winky face’. 🙂
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Brian — Take that up with Jesus. He said it. And please watch the video.
I don’t need any pastor looking over my shoulder to make sure I’m doing the right thing. I belong to Christ and the Holy Spirit lives in me. There is a priesthood of believers, and I don’t need a pastor to tell me what God wants me to do today.
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Julie Anne said:
“I think there has been good discussion, but there has been the occasional snark and I do want to make our guest feel welcome. ”
Well, let’s do a word game. It’s like the “authority” word…only FUNNER (as I once heard in the movie “Legally Blonde”.
We could invite Brian for tea.
Now, I am not one who likes tea. However, years ago…1984, the Navy brought me to Perth, Australia. Well, I met a nice Australian girl who invited me to her parent’s house for, get this…tea.
But it isn’t the same tea that we Americans think. To them, tea is another term for dinner.
So, it gets back to authority. Which definition of authority are we discussing? There are many Greek words used for our English word Authority. The Greek word used defines what it is.
Tea anyone?
Ed
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LOL, Ed, you’re funny. I’m actually quite hungry for the Australian version right now. And to top that off, I happened to make sweet tea this afternoon (the real Southern way). So I hope to enjoy nice tea with my tea.
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Wow…I thought surely someone would recognize my kook rant as being from a scene in Ghostbusters.
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Let’s say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of commentary that results from a controversial blog post ….
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Would anyone have a problem with this version of Hebrews 13:17:
“Be persuaded to listen to, yield to, defer to, comply with, trust, and have confidence in your leaders and resist no longer, but give way to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”
If you do have a problem with it, why?
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I have no problem with that, but I ask, how do you interpret that, and why would you even be asking in the first place if Julie Anne submitted to authority? I truly and honestly believe that your context of the question to her was a complete opposite of what you just posted, which, I may add, is pretty close to what I posted many many comments ago. You had a reason for asking Julie Anne if she submitted to authority. What was your context? To stand up when the elder said to stand up? To ask “how high” if the preacher said to jump? To do 20 push ups if the preacher said “Drop and give me 20”?
Ed
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Brian, I have no problem trusting someone who truly cares for my soul. But that also requires a long term intimate and spiritual relationship. All Christianity is relationship based.
People trusted their souls to Mahaney and his pastors college trained elders/pastors and it caused what? True caring for the soul?
So Brian you are very concerned about us obeying authority. Would you now trust that Mohler, Dever , Piper and the other Mahaney defenders would care for your soul properly? Would you have reservations about their spiritual discernment and wisdom?
And I agree with Ed. I still have no idea what you mean by submitting to authority. The list you gave earlier are areas of agreement.
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That question has been asked and dismissed several times already, Ed, so I guess we’ll be left to speculate on Brian’s motives.
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The version of Hebrews 13:17 I posted (and my earlier explanation) is what I mean by submitting to authority in the church, so please stop saying you have no idea what I mean by submitting to authority. You said you agree with it, so I’m glad we see things the same on that issue.
I originally asked Julie the question about her submitting to church authority because I was trying to get a sense of her beliefs and how they line up with Scripture. That is all. No secret, hidden, evil, woman-hating motives. I think many on here get hung up on words like submit and obey and authority, so I simply removed those words and replaced them with the meaning of the Greek words.
I would be curious to know, Julie, if you have a problem with Hebrews 13:17 as I have rendered it.
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A small detour I wanted to share–the comments under Brian’s post comment at fivesolasguy- (mine is still in moderation from last night) but others are approved.
“Comments
Born4Battle says:
August 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm
I think your piece posted at Spiritual Sounding Board was spot on. What I found sad while I was trying to speak to Biblical authority in the church and in the home (various blog posts there), was the atmosphere of resistance (if not rebellion) against all forms of authority. I experienced much the same thing you did in the exchange of Tweets. I can only pray that some would take seriously what you had to say about authority.
Lydia Thomas says:
August 12, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Reblogged this on thoughts about my wilderness journey and commented:
“Simply put, bad experiences do not negate the truth of God’s Word.”
Truth!
Diane says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 12, 2013 at 9:42 pm
@Born4Battle
What I found sad while I was trying to speak to Biblical authority in the church and in the home (various blog posts there), was the atmosphere of resistance (if not rebellion) against all forms of authority.”
Gosh Born…..what I personally found sad was that you got banned from SSB for your abusive commenting practices. I also found it sad you rarely answered my questions directed toward you.
Why was that?
Oh well…blessings anyway to you!
“Born4Battle says:
August 13, 2013 at 5:01 am
The comments over there are up to 222, and seem to be against a LOT of things, which is true to form. Please pray for those folks. I tried a short comment again and appear to still be banned. I applied a large amount of scripture to several of the blogs and it didn’t go well.”
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“I think many on here get hung up on words like submit and obey and authority, so I simply removed those words and replaced them with the meaning of the Greek words.”
For good reason. They are used quite a bit by those who WANT authority over others and use it as a proof text to beat others over the head. They do not do present as you did above with the more correct translation but in words that are meant to convey power and conceding to that power. Mahaney is perfect example of this since he was quite the leader in your movement for years. Now we see that Mohler, Dever, Piper, Grudem, etc, really have no problem with Mahaney at all and teach much the same things.
It took quite a few comments here and interaction to even get you to the point of reconsidering the translation. If anyone has come to agreement, the comments show you have come more to our way of thinking. That is why it is so important to discuss these things in depth and give practical applications to what you think is correct doctrine.
One of the huge problems with the movement you are in is they want to define all words and concepts for us and we must agree or be out of sync with Christ. They have redefined Gospel, grace, love, salvation, etc, etc. They have introduced or reimagined concepts they want us to believe are salvic such as submission to an authority, gender roles, church discipline, etc. They have included these concepts to be part of the basics of the Gospel when they are tertiary issues for the Body.
My Shepherd is Jesus Christ. All other human relationships within the Body are voluntary but should be based upon mutual love as I discern with the wisdom the Holy Spirit provides me. Seeking to be “over others” is a sin that should be confronted. A true elder would be appalled at such thinking. A true elder would be one refined by the fire of sanctification. In fact, I suggest in many churches there are true elders who are not recognized as such because they do not fit the institutional model. They are often considered the losers in that venue. But they are often the people folks seek out with spiritual crises and usually not in leadership. Sometimes they are little old ladies and other times it might be the janitor.
It could be your thinking is so institutionalized you are missing out on the abundant life. Go back and read your tweets again and then think about the fact there are believers out there who would love you in a mutual environment without all the trappings of the caste system. An authentic relationship were none are considered better or over others in the Body. The weakest among us is considered most important, in fact. (1 Corin). And we all know they have NOTHING to give in return but love. It is a beautiful thing. And it is of Christ.
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Brian said:
Yes, I do have a problem with it. The words “comply,” could be replaced with obey and I don’t see this verse as one saying we need to obey our church leaders. The poor translations of this verse and way I’ve heard it makes it seem that if we don’t “obey” our leaders, we are in grave sin. That is just not so.
I have been in counsel with our current pastor and most of the things I agree with, however, there has been a couple of things I do not agree with. For example, I did not comply with his opinion that I change the name of the blog (to remove the church name from the title – because it was in the middle of a legal court case.) To be clear, I asked him his opinion on that, he did not volunteer that information on his own.
I understand that a shepherd has a higher responsibility and that he is to care for our souls and so there is a level of respect that is given him, greater than others in the church. If I go to him for counsel, I am trusting that he is caring for my soul and that his words are beneficial. But I don’t see that as an obligation for obedience. And apparently he didn’t either, as I told him I didn’t change the name of the blog and he didn’t bat an eye.
However, I think as a pastor shows himself to be a true shepherd, he will naturally have a following of people who mostly comply out of respect and trust. I just don’t see complying or obeying as a prerequisite and I’m wondering if that is the key where we differ? What do you think, Brian?
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Lydia
WOW – what a great comment…
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Brian
Was wondering if you could respond to my first question?
AUGUST 11, 2013 @ 10:50 AM
————
You write…
“I remain convinced of the Bible’s teaching
concerning the submission of Christians to their **church leaders.**
In the Bible – I can NOT seem to find **church leaders** mentioned.
If the term “church leaders” is NOT in the Bible… How can you
“remain convinced of the Bible’s teaching concerning
the submission of Christians to their **church leaders.**”???
Sounds to me like maybe a MAN taught that to you – and NOT the Bible.
Did you ADD that term to the Bible?
Is that an acceptable practice – To ADD terms to the Bible?
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Lydia’s comment made me think more of my current pastor. I’ve never heard him say “submit” to his authority, where CJ preached this kind of stuff. After my bad church experience, here is what I’ve concluded: If you have to tell your people to submit, you are a control freak.
LOL I think that might be tweet worthy.
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Brian said~
“I think many on here get hung up on words like submit and obey and authority, so I simply removed those words and replaced them with the meaning of the Greek words.”
And a few of us did that as well many, many, many comments upstream…did you read them? I have no problem with “be persuaded to listen” at all.
btw-I still am waiting for an answer, if you would indulge, regarding why you were/possibly still are a “huge supporter of SGM” (not necessarily of Mahaney). Since the kind of authority, obedience and submission they have historically taught and administered their spiritual abuse by is not the “be persuaded to listen to” type of obedience….but the “blind trust your leaders they know what is best for you as they tell you what to read, how to dress and who your friends are ” type of obedience, what was it about SGM that was appealing during your huge supporter of SGM days?
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Pardon my skepticism, but there are a number of other ways you could have asked that question instead of the way you did. You could have asked her opinion on the authority of elders, instead you asked if she were submissive to elders. That doesn’t indicate an interest in a belief system, it indicates you wanted to know if she was doing something her elders didn’t know about. I think you were trying to judge her heart instead of trying to learn what she believes.
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Diane: There have been 3 comments from B4B in the last 2 days which I have not approved. His first comment was something like “some things never change.” Hmmm, I could say the same, right? I don’t feel like dealing with the constant contention. He has his blog in which, last I checked, he was shadowing my posts with his own comments as to where we (readers and me) are off. So maybe he can find a sympathetic group of people who don’t like it here and they can form their own group. The internet is big enough for that 🙂
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Brian
I’ve noticed you tend to use sayings like – **the Bible’s teaching**
“do not negate **the truth of God’s Word.**”
“and critical of anyone who **teaches the biblical truth** “
“beliefs and how they **line up with Scripture.**
BUT – Then you use – words and terms – NOT found in the Bible.
To attempt to persuade folks to your point of view…
You might NOT realize it – BUT…
You use many – words and terms – NOT found in the Bible.
**church leaders**
**church membership**
**submission to a pastor**
**it’s not one’s perfection,
but rather the direction they are going that matters.**
If these terms are NOT in the Bible – Wouldn’t they be considered…
Un-Biblical? – Non-Biblical? – Extra-Biblical? – Anti-Biblical?
If these terms are NOT in the Bible – Wouldn’t they be considered…
Commandments of Men? – Doctrines of Men? – Traditions of Men?
That Jesus warned us about?
Mark 7:13
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Brian: I remember when I started to read comments like Lydia’s most recent comment and it turned me off because of what I had been taught for so many years. I really was turned off because it was like night and day compared to my previous church experiences.
I would like to gently challenge you to dig deeper for yourself to see if this authority structure that you have believed in is really biblical after all. Dig all the way down to the root words and see for yourself. I think you might be surprised as I was over time. My change in belief on this issue didn’t happen over night.
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@ JA~
That sounds reasonable to me, and wise.
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Here is an excellent article from a well-known Calvinist preacher that lays out a powerful argument against authoritarian power structures in the church. He’s also well-known for being a peace-maker and compassionate towards those abused by churches and church power structures. http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html
From the post:
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Brian
As I said – I was ordained – I was in “Leadership”
It was tough, being told by others, and seeing myself, as a “Leader.”
Then reading Mat 23:10 NASB, Where Jesus instructs His Diciples
NOT to be called “Leader” for you have “ONE” leader – Jesus…
Lord Jesus, now what do I do?
And I checked the scriptures and NOT one of His Disciples
Called themself “Leader” – they ALL called themselves “Servants.”
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters: for “ONE” is your Master, even Christ.
New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders, for “ONE” is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English –
you must NOT let people call you leaders,
you have only “ONE” leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader,
your “ONE” and only leader is the Messiah.
Jesus told **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders**
And NONE did. – They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
And Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
And took on the form of a “Servant.”
I had a choice to make – Do I want to be a “Leader?”
Or – Do I want to be one of His Disciples? A “Servant” of Jesus?
It took awhile – 5 or so years – BUT – eventually
I destroyed my official papers and departed
from “The Abusive Religious System” of today.
Like Abraham – I went out – NOT knowing where I was going…
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Wade has it right, and history agrees with his perspective. Until the conversion of Constantine, the church functioned as a bottom-upward group of mutual aid and common welfare, then after Constantine, took on the hierarchical structure of the Roman state.
The big question every Christian has to ask themselves is if they will place pre-eminence on the teachings of Christ or the teachings of Paul. I wish that those who give Paul’s teachings greater importance would be intellectually honest enough to call themselves Paulist instead of Christian. Paul was not the new law-giving Moses, he was just another Christian that communicated the way he did things, and the influence of his upbringing as a Pharisee is evident in much of the writing attributed to him.
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There are a wealth of links concerning authoritarianism and the abuse of authority at batteredsheep.com. Tons of material for research, but keep in mind that inclusion of an article does not imply battered sheep’s agreement or endorsement.
http://www.batteredsheep.com/articles.html
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Now we have our 4th comment from B4B.
Here’s a little snippet:
Yea, there’s no intelligent and thoughtful dialogue going on here here. ::::sarcasm::::: We’re discussing actual biblical texts and looking up Greek. I don’t find it intelligent and thoughtful to swallow whatever a church leader feeds you. The ones who want you to do that should not be in the position they are in. A thoughtful and intelligent leader would encourage such a study of key words because he is not threatened when his people learn and grow.
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For those of you who may still doubt that our psychology drives our theology, just do some comparisons of the stories from people that have been long-time members of a congregation who have seen authoritarianism creep in and take over to the Milgram experiment.
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Brian – Jeff Brown – Anyone
Was wondering….
Have you checked out these two EX-pastors. One 33 yrs – One 3 yrs.
Who say – “There aren’t any *church pastors* in the New Testament”
Do you have any thoughts on “NO *church pastors* in the New Testament”?
—————-
The Glass Pastor – “Casting Off The Task-Masters”
http://theglasspastor.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/casting-off-the-task-masters/
“Don’t get me wrong, for my part I did my best to play the role of ‘pastor’, but I always knew that I would not be able to really pull it off. First of all, I didn’t really buy it. **There aren’t any church pastors in the New Testament,** and I could never get past that.”
—————–
“I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring”
http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2010/09/ive-resigned-from-professional.html
“I’m not sure how else to say this, so here it is:
I’ve resigned from professional pastoring.
After much study of scripture, prayer, discussions with some of my friends, and reading good books, I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer in good conscience remain a salaried pastor. I cannot find it anywhere in the bible, so I’m not going to do it.”
—————–
Seems the only one in the NT with the “Title/Position” Shepherd/Leader
Is…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Brian – Jeff Brown – Anyone
Maybe you can answer these questions…
Today’s “Pastor/Leader,”
is this a “Title” or “Position” in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many people… are called pastor?
In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
And every pastor I’ve met also has the “Title” Reverend…
In the Bible, How many people… have the title Reverend?
If these “Titles” are NOT found in the Bible – What would you call them?
I’ve noticed – Most who claim to be “Church Leaders”
Use lots of flattering “Titles” – NOT found in the Bible. 🙂
Senior Pastor – Lead Pastor – Associate Pastor – Reverend – Holy Reverend – Most Holy Reverend – Doctor – Mdiv – Rector – Prelate – Cardinal – Pope – Chief Executive Apostle…
No Kidding – There really is someone calling them self “Chief Executive Apostle”
Saw it with my own eyes… 😉
Titles – Titles – Everywhere – Except in the Bible… —– sigh —–
Job 32:21-22 KJV
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give **flattering titles** unto man.
For I know not to give **flattering titles;**
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
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Eric, Until Constantine, the “elders” were likely to be fed to lions first —not traveling around speaking at conferences for another income stream. :o).
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Perhaps you guys can give me some examples of things a pastor/elder/shepherd would tell you to do that you would not submit to.
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Dear Brian,
Looking through the many comments, I realize you have a lot of questions and concerns coming at you. I think you’re very brave and gracious to respond as much as you have, and to some very insistent questions as well. As such, please don’t feel you have to respond to this. Just take it as food for thought.
Way back in your original post, you say, “bad experiences do not negate the truth of God’s Word”. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that we negate or nullify the Bible based on our experiences. However, IMO, we should allow experience to shape our interpretation of God’s word. That’s what’s going on here at SSB — questioning whether the common evangelical interpretations of passages like Hebrews 13 are indeed correct. And whether their definitions of things like “church leaders” or “church membership” are true to the spirit of Scripture and the character of God.
In other words, I don’t allow my experiences to negate the truth of God’s word. But neither will I allow any interpretation of God’s word to negate or nullify my (or anyone else’s) experience of life. I allow both to inform each other, and interpret each in light of the other.
As for submission to church leaders — for what it’s worth, I respect and listen to my pastors and older members at church, for the simple reason that they’ve studied more and walked with God longer than I have. I give my “obedience” to none of them. That belongs to God alone. In fact, here in Japan, I occasionally even disagree with my pastors on some (secondary) issues, yet they accept and welcome me. So apparently I’m not out of favour, or out of the will of God, by refusing to simply submit to them.
P.S. to Julie Anne: I really like how you’re handling Born4Battle. Especially this little tidbit: “So maybe he can find a sympathetic group of people who don’t like it here and they can form their own group. The internet is big enough for that.”
Perfect response, sister! You tell ‘im! 😀
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Nothing overly detailed or drawn out…just some examples where you would say, “I’m not following THAT instruction!”
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Brian
Can you name one of His disciples who called themself – pastor/elder/shepherd?
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Brian
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the “”Title” – Pastor?
And asked someone to submit to them?
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Brian
In the Bible – Does anyone have to submit to a pastor/elder/shepherd?
Does anyone have to submit to a pastor/elder/shepherd…
Who does NOT qualify according to “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3 and Titus?
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Serving – I was wondering why I had to approve your comment and then took a closer look and noticed the name change. I like it and it better reflects what you do in Japan. You are moderation free now! 🙂 It’s good to hear from you.
Your response about submission is exactly the way I see it.
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Peter called himself an elder: 1 Peter 5:1. John called himself an elder: 2 John 1:1.
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Brian
Was wondering…
I left two comments at your blog awhile ago – about 11 am EST…
They are still in moderation – Will you post them?
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Brian
Thanks for the response – But The Question was also included pastor-shepherd.
Can you name one of His disciples who called themself – pastor/elder/shepherd?
And also this question…
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the “”Title” – Pastor?
And asked someone to submit to them?
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Brian,
Just off the top of my head: If a pastor tried to command me to marry a certain woman, and I didn’t feel it she was right for me, I would refuse. If an elder said that I ought to be a pastor or a missionary in order to “really serve God”, I’d tell him that’s between me and my Lord. Hasn’t happened to me yet, and I hope it never does.
My two cents. Anyone else?
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The terms pastor, elder, and shepherd are synonymous in the New Testament and refer to the same office within the church.
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Brian
Where, in the Bible, does it say they are “synonymous?”
And also this question…
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the “”Title” – Pastor?
And asked someone to submit to them?
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In our spiritually abusive church, our pastor told us that we shouldn’t be doing any co-ed swimming and told us what kind of swim attire was acceptable and not.
We later went to family camp and enjoyed swimming, with mixed sexes and in unapproved swimming attire. And I secretly wondered if the CON police were spying and taking pictures to report us to the church authorities. I also did not comply with his rules on attire. I dressed my boy in pink, I wore black/gray/brown. I showed my shoulders (I think in one of my tv interviews during the lawsuit I wore a sleeveless top and thought he might think I was showing the world my immodesty – lol). My kids didn’t always wear shorts down to the knees. All of the above were against his guidelines.
In our current church, our pastor is very balanced and wouldn’t force anything. Our first year here, there was some hoopla regarding the Courageous movie and he got some sort of covenant for men to sign. He encouraged all men to sign this “covenant” to be better dads/leaders or whatever. I had a discussion with my husband on this and showed him why I had problems with it and he agreed with me and did not sign it.
But because this is a good pastor who does not lord over his people. He was not commanding anyone to sign it, but was merely encouraging men to sign it. He also did not harass anyone who didn’t sign it.
Oh, here’s another one, at our current church they ask for people to fill out these cards each week to show you are there in attendance. I refuse to do that.
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Brian
Where, in the Bible, does it say pastor, elder, and shepherd, are “synonymous?”
In my neck of the woods …
Pastors are Hired, and Fired, by the elders – And pastors get paid.
The elders are mostly from within the congregation – Volunteers.
NOPE – Pastor and Elder are NOT synonymous.
I do NOT think you get that from the Bible –
I think it is another “Tradition of Men” the Makes Void – the Word of God.
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“The terms pastor, elder, and shepherd are synonymous in the New Testament and refer to the same office within the church.”
Oh boy! First of all there is no “office” in the Greek. Check your interlinear on that one. That was added by translators for good reason: church/state. They are actually “functions” in the Body and are not static so to speak. You might have several functioning as “pastors”. People in third world countries functioning as missionaries see this all the time as they do not have the institutional caste system we have when meeting in grass huts on dirt floors. Some tend to have a gift for “pastoring” a new believer for a while. But the focus should be on helping a new believer seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit…not just a human.
The problem is, pastoring as we know it, can become an albatross for believers keeping one from not maturing past the pastor in Holiness. That is not a good thing. And if one matures past the pastor, then he is obsolete. If too many do this, then the pastor is out of a job unless you are a church/state. So, the trick is to keep as many people dependent on the pastor as possible.
History is a wise teacher in this respect.
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Mod note: I am approving this comment of B4B. The tone is good, it pertains to the discussion and I think can benefit many if we can wrestle with the real meanings of the words. The following is his comment in its entirety with no editing on my part. ~ja
That none of the disciples gave themselves ‘titles’ does not mean that those roles/positions are not important to the organization of the church.
“And he (Christ) gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.” – Eph 4:11-12
The office of ‘elder’ (as are the ‘gifts’ Christ gives in Eph 4) is a divinely appointed role.
Therefore, A. Amos’s assertion that there should be none of the above is without merit. Rather, it might just demonstrate that there were those in the early church that did not ‘abuse’ their calling and ‘Lord it over’ those in their care, but rather served as God’s appointed leaders.
Because some have sat under abusive leadership in the church in no way negates the need for good leaders.
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“Perhaps you guys can give me some examples of things a pastor/elder/shepherd would tell you to do that you would not submit to.”
Those types. if the real lowly thing, would be so busy being Christlike and caring for others they would not have time to be going around telling people what they should be doing or not doing. They live what they teach, are transparent and are NOT seeking followers unto themselves.
So many are under the impression Christianity is mainly about TELLING others what to do or how to act. How about living it out in real time? It is not easy at all to do either!!!! Then perhaps more people will want to know about the real Jesus Christ because we look more like Him. Maybe, just maybe.
One thing this does is focus us on the grand theme of Love God, Love others and not the tertiary issues so many are bogged down in. There is freedom in that, my friend. There is NO freedom in trying to control other adults.
As the Romans said in the 1st Century about the Christians: See how they love one another!
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The important phrase is: to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up the body of Christ. There’s nothing in that phrase about an authority structure or hierarchy. That looks like training/teaching to me.
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Brian
NOPE – Pastor and Elder are NOT synonymous.
Where you fellowship – Who gets their “Title” and Name…
“Engraven” on diploma’s, that are placed on office walls,
“Engraven” on business cards, that are handed out,
“Engraven” on office doors, and the secretarys desks,
on the Sunday morning bulletin, on the street sign,
Seems “the Pastor” gets all the “Reverence” and advertising space…
and anyone who reads them knows who “the Pastor” is. Yes?
How many who are voted in as elders – get their own office and secratary?
Their name on the street sign? 😉
Is all this self-promotion of the pastor “self-honoring” and “seeking glory?”
Seems Jesus warned “His disciples” about those things. 😉
Joh 8:54*
…If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:..
John 7:18
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory…
Has the “Title Pastor” become a “graven image?”
Doesn’t the Bible warn us about, and exhort us to,
“hew down “the graven images” of their (our) gods.”
Micah 1:7
And all the “graven images” shall be beaten to pieces…
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name:
and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to “graven images.”
Jer 50:38
A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up:
for it is the land of “graven images,” and they are mad upon “their idols”
“Pastors” become “Masters”
“Titles” become “Idols”
And if you pastor say his “Title” is NOT and “Idol”
Just ask him to get rid of it… and see what happens… 😉
Didn’t Jesus, as man, humble Himself, make Himself of NO reputation,
take on the form of a servant ? Phl 2:7-8”
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Lydia, you are setting up and knocking down so many straw men I can’t even count them all.
Julie and Japan, I agree. I would not follow those instructions either. Furthermore, if my pastor gave any of those commands I’d be looking for another church real quick!
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Amos Love, there’s no way you and I are going to be able to discuss anything if you won’t agree to even a basic given about the terms pastor, elder and shepherd. They ARE synonymous, regardless of what the church structures are like in your neck of the woods.
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Lovingkindness
I agree when you write…
“Because some have sat under abusive leadership in the church in no way negates the need for **good leaders.**”
Jesus said…
“There is NONE **good** but God.”
“I am The **Good** Shepherd.”
“there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.”
“You have “ONE” Leader – the Christ.”
Kind of hard to find a “Mere Fallible Human” who is a “Good Leader.”
When Jeus says – “There is NONE **good** but God.”
So, Yes – There is, as you say – the need for **good leaders.**”
Thanks for conferming my beliefs Lovingkindness…
Jesus – The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Leader…
And – The only “ONE” who is **GOOD.*
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}
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Julie, there IS a hierarchy, but it’s purpose is not to demean anyone or to place some as more important than others. All the members of the body of Christ are of equal importance, but there are different roles within that body. Some are charged with the task of shepherding/teaching, and that necessitates leading, but not in any type of dictatorial sense.
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Brian
I agree with…
“regardless of what the church structures are like in your neck of the woods.”
I’m NOT very happy with what these 501 (c) 3 Corporations do either – or teach…
In the name of Jesus – And saying they are being Biblical… NOT…
But – Can you explain, from the Bible, how “pastor/elder/shepherd” are
“Synonymous?”
And I have two comments in moderation on your site…
Will you post them?
And also this question…
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the “”Title” – Pastor?
And asked someone to submit to them?
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For Julie Anne August 13, 2013 @ 10:30 AM
Authority and hierarchies are inherent to just about any organizational structure on the planet. We just fail to do it properly at times. As John MacArthur teaches, organization of the church should be in step with the Holy Spirit, not neglected when it is needed (as in the early church), and not outrunning what the Holy Spirit is doing in building the church. ,
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Brian
Yes – Peter called himself elder.
And also had some advice for other elders in 1 Peter 5:1-5.
That many of todays so-called elders – “Church Leaders – “Ignore.”
1 Pet 5:5 **Yea, all of you be *subject one to another,** (*submit)
Yup – Ever try telling a Senior Pastor – We’re to submit – one to another?
1 Peter 5:1-5. KJV
Feed the flock of God which is *among you*…. (among – NOT under you.)
Neither as being lords over God’s heritage,
but *being ensamples to the flock.* (Actions speak louder then )
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. (Older in age??)
**Yea, all of you be subject one to another,** (Elders tend to “Ignore” this.)
and *be clothed with humility:* (Elders tend to “Ignore” this.)
for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Do you know any – pastor, elder, shepherds – Who live like this?
Being examples to the Flock – By…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
7 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
8 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
9 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
10 – NOT “execising authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
Yup – Ever try telling a Senior Pastor – We’re to submit – one to another?
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth NOT the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
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What I see in this blog post, as well as others in the recent past, is a complete denial of any authority or organizational structure. I don’t know why that is, but without them, we are left with ‘everyone doing what is right in their own eyes’, and a form of anarchy. Our problem is not that they are present in the church, but with those who would abuse them. You simply cannot read the New Testament (or the OT) and come away with not needing them. To rebel against authority is to rebel against what God has ordained, and God himself. I would not want that on my conscience.
Some examples:
1. God instructs children to obey their parents. In Ephesians 6:1, we read: Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2. God instructs us to obey the government. Romans 13:1 tells us: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
3. God instructs wives to submit to their husband’s authority. Colossians 3:18 says: Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
4. God instructs church members to obey their elders. Hebrews 13:17 instructs us: Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.
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Ok, once again, I approved B4B’s comment because he is mentioning verses that are so often used to prove the authority issue.
For the life of me, though, B4B, have you not read any of the comments regarding the Hebrews 13:17 verse?
Here’s what bothers me about you mentioning that verse: there have been so many comments on that particular verse and it troubles me that you’d even mention it. You wanted thoughtful and intellectual conversation – – – well, it was there, but you have disregarded it. Why????
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Of course I read them. What I know is that comments trying to support the ‘no authority’ proposition are basing that on ‘one’ of the meanings of ‘rule’ or ‘obey’ are using the pasge to ‘prove’ a presupposition, rather than engage in careful exegesis.
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. ESV
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. NASB
17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. NKJV
Our LibraryCommentariesJohn Gill’s Exposition of the BibleHebrewsHebrews 13Hebrews 13:17
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you
Not the ecclesiastical rulers among the Jews, for to these they were no longer obliged, they being no longer under such tutors and governors; nor civil magistrates, though it was their duty to obey them, even Heathen ones; for as for Christian magistrates, as yet there were none; but their spiritual guides and governors, the same that are mentioned ( Hebrews 13:7 ) these the apostle exhorts them to “obey”: by constantly tending upon the word preached by them, and hearkening to it; by receiving it with faith and love, as it appears agreeable to the Scriptures; for a contrary behaviour is pernicious to souls, and highly resented by God; and by being present at, and joining with them in the ordinances of Christ, as administered by them; and by regarding their admonitions, counsels, and advice:
and submit yourselves;
to the laws of Christ’s house, as put in execution by them; and to their censures and reproofs, as delivered by the authority of the church; for they are spiritual fathers, and children should obey their parents, and submit to them; they are the ambassadors of Christ, stand in his stead, and represent him, wherefore their authority is great; and they are pastors or shepherds of the flock, whom the sheep should follow:
13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you – The word implies also, that lead or guide you; namely, in truth and holiness. And submit yourselves – Give up (not your conscience or judgment, but) your own will, in all things purely indifferent. For they watch over your souls – With all zeal and diligence, they guard and caution you against all danger. As they that must give account – To the great Shepherd, for every part of their behaviour toward you.How vigilant then ought every pastor to be! How careful of every soul committed to his charge! That they may do this – Watch over you. With joy and not with groans – He is not a good shepherd, who does not either rejoice overthem, or groan for them. The groans of other creatures are heard: how much more shall these come up in the ears of God !Whoever answers this character of a Christian pastor may undoubtedly demand this obedience.
Strong’s Greek Definition for # 2233 (rule)
2233 // hgeomai // hegeomai // hayg-eh’-om-ahee //
middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of 71 ;TDNT – 2:907,303; v
AV – count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,
misc 6; 28
1) to lead
1a) to go before
1b) to be a leader
1b1) to rule, command
1b2) to have authority over
1b3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading
as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or
leaders of the churches
1b4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
1b5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
2) to consider, deem, account, think
Strong’s Greek Definition for # 3982 (obey)
3982 // peiyw // peitho // pi’-tho //
a primary verb; TDNT – 6:1,818; v
AV – persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3,
be confident 2, misc 7; 55
1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good
will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to
do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to
be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident
Why didn’t I yield to faulty exegesis? Why should I?
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B4B – I guess, if you take them as COMMANDS, I can see where you are coming from. I have just finished reading The Glass Castle (don’t know how to underline in this program!) and I agree with Jeannette Wall’s mother – they should be taken as SUGGESTIONS. I thought that was brilliant, it makes far more sense.
I think, B4B, that you might be having a difficult time adjusting to today’s world – in most jobs nowadays, the focus is on working as a team; the traditional hierarchical structures are disappearing. If you’ve come from a military background, I can see why you might not be adjusting to this new reality. It’s much the same in the church that I’ve been involved with for the last 35 years – patriarchy is gone (good riddance, I say!) and has been replaced with sensible, talent-sharing people who share a common bond. Perhaps you need to readjust your thinking?
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Lovingkindness
Have you ever watched the movie – The Shawshank Redemption?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shawshank_Redemption
It takes place in a prison – A NOT very nice prision…
Men are there for many years…
Told what they can do – and when to do it…
The guards are NOT nice – The Warden is NOT nice…
It is a missable existence for these men…
Then some get paroled – They are told they are FREE…
But – being in the ‘Institution” they learned NOT to think for themselves
Just Obey… when to Wake up – Eat – work – Eat – Go to sleep…
NOW – they are FREE – And they are scared –
They do NOT know how to live – As a FREE man…
Some even commit suicide… Now that they are FREE…
———-
I volunteered at a “VA Medical Center” a Veterans Hospital…
The Salvation Army – Used one of the buildings for a homeless shelter for veterans. These well trained military men – Who could do almost anything with nothing – Were so Institutionized – Told what to do and when to do it – When to awake, when to eat – to work – to eat – and to sleep – But…
They could NOT live as FREE men…
They could survive living in the woods in the USA…
BUT – They could NOT survive being a FREE man…
They wanted an “Authority” a “Structure” to tell them how to live…
———–
I’ve submitted to the “Authority” you suggest is in the Bible…
I was a leader in the “Institution” many today call church…
And we loved having people “Obey” us…
We “Exercised Authority” over them – ALL for their good – We thought.
But – We taught them to depend on man – and NOT on Jesus…
“Spiritual Abuse” caused me to question that “Authority”
Your way makes people “dependant on a man” for direction..
And never learn to hear from Jesus for themselves…
Your way comes between Jesus and His Sheep…
I found out – In the Bible – Jesus has a better way – A way of Liberty…
My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and – Follow Me.
Those “Led” by the Spirit – Those are the sons of God.
Do NOT be called “Leader” – You have “ONE” Leader – Jesus
I have learned to live as a FREE man – In Jesus…
And once you taste FREEDOM – there ain’t NO goin back…
If you would like to learn how to live as a FREE man
I would love to help…
Be Blessed in your search for “Truth” – Jesus
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“What I see in this blog post, as well as others in the recent past, is a complete denial of any authority or organizational structure. I don’t know why that is, but without them, we are left with ‘everyone doing what is right in their own eyes’, and a form of anarchy. ”
Those who work for someone else who signs their paycheck are well aware of authority issues. But then, even that is a contractual agreement for both parties. Then we can take a look at government as we know it as Americans. Btw, borntobattle, I would buy tickets to watch you “obey” Barack Obama. (wink). But then, that is not how it works anymore, is it? On purpose we became a nation of laws to obey. Not a man (or men) to obey. Yes, we have individuals whose job it is to deal with those who break the laws from police to the judges but you are not disobeying them, you are disobeying the laws a majority people agreed should be laws by election, etc.
Before America there was the divine right of kings to obey and magistrates to punish if you did not.
What is a problem is that we starting to lack individualism and self determination (GASP) (which was a hallmark of our founding) . We look to government to fill our material needs and to a pastor to fill our spiritual needs. We are becoming a nation of non thinkers and dependents. (There are always those who need help and as believers we should be the first in line to do so)
I really believe you have it backwards and totally misunderstand submission. Christianity is not Islam, for crying out loud. We would be fools to obey someone just because they have a title in the Body. We must be wise and discerning and that is what the Holy Spirit is for. There is this notion that adults must have a human to lead, manage and organize them because they cannot do so themselves. And there are plenty of tyrants willing and available like CJ Mahaney.
BTW: Amos makes a good point about “leaders” in a 501c3/4 Body of Christ. Kind of silly, isn’t it when you think about it.
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“Lydia, you are setting up and knocking down so many straw men I can’t even count them all.”
Sorry you view my comments that way. What I am hearing from you sounds eerily like the mantra we have heard before: Separate but equal.
This was the mantra during segregation. It has been the mantra for the comp movement and for authority/submission in the Body of Christ. (they really tried to nail it with ESS, too) A lot of twisting has to be done to say one is equal but at the same time not equal enough.
Orwell said it best: Some animals are more equal than others. (Animal Farm)
You know, this is a tenant of socialism/collectivism
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Borntobattle,
Many scholars think Gill was a hyper Calvinist.
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Wow…comparing my comments to segregation. When did I ever hint about something even remotely similar to “seperate but equal”. I think we have pretty much hit the titling point in this discussion.
Do you not realize that the Trinity gives us a perfect example of what I am talking about? There is one God, eternally existing in three co-equal Persons, Father, Son and Spirit. Yet, though they are co-equal, there is a hierarchy of roles. The Father is the head. The Son, positionally speaking, is subserviant to and does the will of the Father. The Spirit, positonally speaking, is subserviant to and is sent out by the Son. These different, subserviant roles by the three co-equal, eternally existing Person of the Godhead are expressed really well by the Christian rapper, Shai Linne:
Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one Working as a unit to get things done
Our salvation began in eternity past
God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass
A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever
When it comes to the church, peep how they work together
The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth
To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth
The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them
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If you read Gill’s actual writings, instead of what “some scholars” say, it is clear Gill was not a hyper-Calvinist.
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“Do you not realize that the Trinity gives us a perfect example of what I am talking about? There is one God, eternally existing in three co-equal Persons, Father, Son and Spirit. Yet, though they are co-equal, there is a hierarchy of roles. The Father is the head. The Son, positionally speaking, is subserviant to and does the will of the Father. The Spirit, positonally speaking, is subserviant to and is sent out by the Son.”
You have just described Eternal Subordination of the Son. ESS.
I will give you credit, though. Most of the pushers of this errant doctrine don’t go as far as you did to have the Holy Spirit subservient to Jesus. Usually, Jesus ends up the lesser god all the way around in their scenerios. You ARE describing a pecking order within the ONE TRUE GOD of Abraham. Lesser gods within the One True God. Sad stuff. But it helps me really understand how much kool aid you have drunk and why authority is your hot button issue. The gurus did their jobs well.
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Brian,
You said at 11:01, “Some are charged with the task of shepherding/teaching, and that necessitates leading, but not in any type of dictatorial sense.”
I don’t see how that’s necessarily so. As a teacher myself (or at least, an assistant teacher), I’m often told the exact opposite. In fact, during the training I just finished for my new job, we trainees were often admonished to avoid “leading” the class as much as possible. To craft lessons centered on the kids, and not on ourselves. To get out of their way as soon as we can, and let them have at the subject and learn.
Now, to some extent, schoolteachers have to be in authority, since their students are so much younger. But between adults, that doesn’t apply. I’ve taught English to grown-ups as well, some quite a bit older than myself. I’m pretty sure they’d take umbrage at the notion that I was in a position of “authority” or “leadership” over them, simply because I teach them for a season.
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Where in my comments did I state that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father? My example with the Trinity was in the context of God saving sinners, and Christ’s redemptive work in His incarnation.
I am beginning to see that you are rather quick to place labels and then attack those labels.
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“Where in my comments did I state that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father? My example with the Trinity was in the context of God saving sinners, and Christ’s redemptive work in His incarnation”
The Father is the head. The Son, positionally speaking, is subserviant to and does the will of the Father. The Spirit, positonally speaking, is subserviant to and is sent out by the Son.
Positionally speaking? Are you saying what you wrote above is only applicable to the Trinity in the 33 Incarnational years Messiah walked this earth?
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Isn’t it interesting that the Son intercedes to the Father on behalf of those who draw near, and the Holy Spirit also intercedes to the Father on behalf of believers with groanings too deep for words.
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“Another way a congregant submits to the authority of a church can be seen when their church leaders decide to use a certain cirriculum or method for doing something, and the congregants use that cirriculum and follow that method being employed. For example, one church may choose to utilize Sunday school for discipleship, while another may use small groups that meet during the week. A person who refuses to submit to the authority of their church regarding what curriculum and methods are to be employed would also cause major disruptions.”
Brian I think Sunday School and small groups are great, and have thoroughly enjoyed both as I have been involved. The problem that I have with this is when churches make involvement mandatory. This is especially true is you have a church with a plethora of different Sunday School classes, bible studies, book studies, Precepts, small groups, and other ministry activities which a lot of time meet on Sunday as well. You whole Sunday could be filled with church activities, and some of which you may not have even been involved if you didn’t feel pressured or obligated by the leaders. Whatever happen to you looking at the all of offerings of the church and presenting these opportunities to God in prayer, and asking HIM what HE would have you do? The bible does say to study to show yourself approved, but it never listed out what that had to look like. I have had people tell me that they didn’t like most Sunday School classes because for them it felt like they were sitting in another sermon. Which for the most part you are just sitting there listening to the leader. That person would be better served in another format, in my opinion. Now if in these classes the decision was made to have all the groups go through the book of John, fine. I don’t have a problem with that type of structure. I guess my issue is why there always need to be a rule in place for simple things were God has given you the freedom to choose.
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Brian, Again, you do not answer questions so it all becomes futile. I could give you example after example of the SAME things that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit do in scripture. Why? they are all ONE TRUE GOD. Working in harmony in a love relationship with the same will. Outside of the short Incarnation you cannot support this doctrine. Even then the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because claiming to be God’s son was “making himself equal with God” (John 5) The Reformers eschewing any Hebrew understanding in the NT do not understand what claiming to be “God’s Son” really means. And much meaning is lost for them. Jesus becomes a lesser god for eternity past and future.
I did a ton of research on ESS years back when Grudem and Ware were making it salvic gospel and the YRR/comps were lapping it up. In my research I was appalled to see that Ware actually edited a quote by Athanasius to make it look like he was affirming ESS. Kevin Giles outlines this in his book on this subject. These are our scholars…dishonest men editing quotes from church fathers and trying to pass them off to affirm an errant doctrine. And plenty of young men fall for it.
Giles claims ESS was promoted for ONE reason: Complementarianism. If one could get folks to believe there were lesser gods in the Trinity then they map that to human relationships. I think Giles was right because it was all over CBMW and taught at comp conferences for a long time.
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“These are our scholars…dishonest men editing quotes from church fathers and trying to pass them off to affirm an errant doctrine.”
Guilt by association…that’s the mantra here that I am beginning to see clearly. You cited Grudem and Ware (two, count them, two people out of how many scholars in all?), and now all of a sudden ALL scholars are dishonest men editing quotes?
And it’s not ESS, it’s EFS, “eternal functional subordination”.
By the way, complementarianism doesn’t need EFS to be true. Complentarianism IS true. You can kick and scream and claw and scratch against that true doctrine all you want, but it will still be true. “the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”
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I find this part of the dialogue between Lydia & Brian Thornton absolutely fascinating. It is a case study, really. Brian, layman, believes in authoritarian structure in church. He backs it up by saying there’s a hierarchy in God, essentially ESS lingo, yet doesn’t know that’s what he is espousing. Separate but equal, well not really equal of course, God is a pecking order. What a smooth, deceptive sell & hold on people this heresy has. Shameful on the promoters of this lie, they aren’t even honest & upfront with the laity on what they are pushing/selling.
I feel sad for Brian now, just as I felt sad once I realized my own gullibility. Now I’m even more upset at these control freak pastors who are promoters of lies, jealous for their “office of authority”. The ones they are serving & protecting are themselves.
We need to start thinking about what we believe & what it really means, instead of parroting or being a mouth-piece for a higher ranking official. We are to be followers of Christ alone. Each of us is ultimately responsible for what we do & say.
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A Amos Love,
Brian is right in regards to pastor/shepherd being synonymous. It is the same Greek word, and the definition is…get this…pastor/shepherd. It’s in the KJV. I don’t know what translation you use, but pastor/shepherd/elder is in the Bible.
Elder is simply defined as “Senior” or “Older” or presbyter.
So, Brian must be pretty old?????????? On Social Security??????
Ed
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Brian,
You had said:
“Amos Love, there’s no way you and I are going to be able to discuss anything if you won’t agree to even a basic given about the terms pastor, elder and shepherd. They ARE synonymous, regardless of what the church structures are like in your neck of the woods.”
You are right, and you are wrong.
Pastor/shepherd are synonomous, but not elder. Pastor/shepherd is the same Greek word, Elder is not.
The Greek word for Pastor/shepherd is simply, pastor/shepherd. The definition for Elder is simply, “OLDER”, or “SENIOR” or presbyter. The definition of presbyter is:
Dictionary.com
pres·by·ter
[prez-bi-ter] Show IPA
1. (in the early Christian church) an office bearer who exercised teaching, priestly, and administrative functions.
2. (in hierarchical churches) a priest.
3. an elder in a Presbyterian church.
NOT SHEPHERD/PASTOR.
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Brian,
You had said:
“Julie, there IS a hierarchy.”
My response:
No there isn’t a hierarchy.
We are all kings of the King. Jesus is the King of kings. We are all “brethren”. There is no one above another. No one rules over anyone. We all sit on the same throne that Jesus sits on. We are all of the same rank.
God is not a respector of persons. That is in the Bible. All of it.
No one is to lord over us. Period. There is NOT a hierarchy.
You Calvinists are no different than Catholics in that regard. Reform, huh? Doesn’t look like it to me.
Ed
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Born4Battle,
You had said:
“What I see in this blog post, as well as others in the recent past, is a complete denial of any authority or organizational structure.”
My response:
Organized religion, huh? I thought you left the Catholic church, calling it something like “reform”.
We protestants are not into the organized religion. We prefer guitars and drums, instead of organs.
On a serious note, you take that word authority and run with it, completely changing the real meaning of it. The same with the word “obey”.
Who are we to obey? God, or your interpretation? We know the real definition, and it does not line up with your definition, created out of thin air.
Ed
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Brian,
EFS (eternal functional subordination) is new to me.
However, I fail to see the difference between ESS (eternal submission to the son) & EFS (eternal functional subordination). Is EFS the “kinder, gentler ESS”? Both names imply a pecking order. What do you think the differences are?
Maybe the pecking order of God is different in one vs other? Subordinate in function or form? To claim there is a pecking order within God reminds me of Hinduism. Brahman the godhead, with lesser gods. Is this what much of reformed Christianity has reduced itself to? All to support hierarchy structure. This is nuts to me.
“So, Hinduism quintessentially has only one Supreme God, but it also has a hierarchy of lesser Gods. Most Hindus look at these Gods as mere representations or symbols of forces. Braham can manifest itself in various forms which are the ‘Sakara’ form of the Brahman.”
Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/hindu-gods.html
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“And it’s not ESS, it’s EFS, “eternal functional subordination”
Sorry, I have not kept up in a few years and did not realize it got a new name. :o) You didn’t use “ontological” and for that I am grateful.
We all know about “pecking order functions” that are called equal. It is called “spin”
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Brian,
You had said:
“Do you not realize that the Trinity gives us a perfect example of what I am talking about?”
I personally don’t like that example. Why, you might ask? Well, let me explain.
Co-equal, and yet, not equal is basically your outline.
Either they are equal, or they are not equal. Which is it? If they are co-equal, no one is under anyone, no one is above anyone, no one rules anyone, no one is in charge of anyone.
So, every time I read any church’s “WE BELIEVES” statements, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT ONE, you know the ole Co-Equal, yet not co-equal mantra?
Ed
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Stick a fork in me…I’m done.
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Second grade history & religion curriculum of old has really come in handy for this homeschool Mom! 🙂 Sadly, I learned more about church & religious history from secular courses than from preaching. Maybe they don’t want us to know this stuff came from Saint Augustine of Catholic faith, Plato & other religions.
Just navel gaze & rest, no need to follow or grow in Christ & think for yourself. 😉
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Brian said:
“Isn’t it interesting that the Son intercedes to the Father on behalf of those who draw near, and the Holy Spirit also intercedes to the Father on behalf of believers with groanings too deep for words.”
My response:
Isn’t it funny that Jesus told his disciples to Baptize them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and yet, we don’t find the name of the Holy Spirit in scripture, and they didn’t use the name of the Father, either.
All they used was the name of Jesus. What is the name of the Holy Spirit?
If Jesus is in heaven, with the Father, then how can we say that Jesus lives in us if he is in heaven?
Yes, interesting that there are three people playing the role of one God. The Jews know about the Holy Spirit, knowing that the Holy Spirit is God, and yet, they don’t believe in two people playing the role of one God.
Oh, but it’s a mystery, huh? Hmmmm. Church fathers…ha!…phewy.
Ed
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“Sadly, I learned more about church & religious history from secular courses than from preaching”
Exactly. Very important point.
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Here is one example of the Trinity working as ONE TRUE GOD concerning the Resurrection. According to scripture: Who raised Jesus from the Dead?
Jesus Himself- John 2:19
The Holy Spirit-Romans 8:11
God the Father-Acts 2:24
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