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Ok, you really have to hear the background of this next post. The other day I was tweeting with a guy whose Twitter handle is @fivesolasguy, (Brian Thornton.) He responded to a couple of tweets of mine and I have to be honest with you, his words felt very familiar to me. The following is a good sampling of our conversation.
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Eventually, I got tired of the same runaround and so I said “gotta run” or something similar a couple of times. I continued to get more tweets after saying I had to go (notifications come to my smart phone) and I didn’t want to have to keep picking up my phone for the same guy tweeting the same ol’ stuff and so I blocked him. I think I have only one other person blocked in my 1+ yrs of tweeting.
Well, yesterday, I noticed Mr. Thornton came here to the blog and posted a couple of comments. He questioned why I blocked him on Twitter. So, I went back to Twitter to see what was going on. Apparently, he had tweeted and tagged me quite a bit. I found the evidence on Aug. 9 in which he spouted off publicly about me for blocking him. JA did something she doesn’t allow her kids to do – she rolled her eyes.
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Wow – those are 6 tweets in a row. There were more, too. I couldn’t tell if the tweeting occurred all at once or throughout the day. I realized that this guy was obviously trying to get some message across to me and not satisfied with my earlier responses and so I gave him an offer to say whatever he’s trying to say in a paragraph or two and I’d post it here on the blog. (You might consider clicking on that link. The exchange is pretty funny – – one of our regular readers, Eric Fry, saw what was going on and put his TX cowboy boots on. Yea, he cut to the chase.) I figured why not – we could try to discuss it here with complete sentences and paragraphs without the Twitter character limitations and just be done with it already.
Hey, what do you know, he took me up on it. You can tell from the tweets above that we both were getting frustrated. Twitter can be very effective or it can be very ineffective. Our conversation was not getting anywhere.
But check out what he wrote. I can’t believe it’s the same guy. It definitely gives more insight into his tweets. The only edit I made was to break up a long paragraph, otherwise, this is exactly Mr. Thornton’s content. I’m looking forward to the discussion.
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A Call for Reasoned Discernment Before Judgment Is Made Upon Others
My wife and I have experienced what is known as spiritual abuse at the hands of a pastor who went to great lengths to “lord it over” his flock. He would arrive at your doorstep unannounced to rebuke you for not attending a service, have others call you out and rebuke you for some comments you made at a small group gathering, and would even verbally chastise you and threaten to remove you from membership if you did not repent of a particular sin he was convinced you had.
When I finally concluded that this guy was beyond the possibility of being reasoned with, I removed my wife and family from his spiritually oppressive influence. This guy was off the chain, so to speak, and I would not allow him to exert his unbiblical and sinful attempts to control us any longer.
My experience had made me a prime candidate to resist any future submission to a pastor/elder/shepherd (it did, in fact, result in me being hyper-critical for several years following that experience). But, in spite of what we went through, I remain convinced of the Bible’s teaching concerning the submission of Christians to their church leaders. Sadly, though, I fear that there are many who experience similar things that we did who become overly cynical, distrusting, and critical of anyone who teaches the biblical truth concerning the authority of church leaders over their congregations. Simply put, bad experiences do not negate the truth of God’s Word. And they don’t give us unfettered license to rail against anyone we believe is abusing their authority.
One of the main mistakes we can make (especially those of us who have experienced abusive practices firsthand from church leaders) is that, going forward, we fail to give others the benefit of the doubt. Paul said that love “bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things”, and I believe part of what Paul is saying there is that our love for one another inside the church will include an attitude and heart of trust, rather than distrust. Our love for one another, rooted in the common bond we have IN Christ, will (should) translate into carefully researched conclusions and comments regarding another’s supposed position on church authority, for example. That love will result in, not publicly expressed suspicion the moment we see a red flag or questionable information, but will instead lead us to make sure that we are counting others as more important than ourselves, which will hopefully result in us reserving judgment until we are sure of the truth. I have been guilty of this more times than I can count.
Another common mistake we tend to make is that we will attack and judge and critique something based upon what someone has written rather than how what has been written actually gets fleshed out in real life. For example, someone reads on a web site article about someone’s position on the church’s authority over a Christian, and they draw all sorts of conclusions and preconceived opinions, not based upon what actually occurs in real life, but rather based upon what was written. I have been guilty of this quite recently. I strongly disagreed with a particular “method” for doing something as it was written and explained on paper, and I began to passionately attack that method with much vigor and emotion. However, when I took a step back and decided to see how that method was actually being fleshed out in real life, my conclusions were completely opposite from my initial judgments. We can erect all manor [sic] of straw men that we can easily knock down (or burn in effigy), when the truth is all we’ve done is malign another member of the body of Christ for no good reason. Make no mistake, there are those who take advantage of others and abuse their authority in the church. And they must be exposed and stopped. But, every red flag is not a cause for misinformed declarations against others who profess Christ. When we do that, we very well may be bringing down someone who is truly on our side. And for what reason? Because we didn’t give the benefit of the doubt, or we didn’t do our homework, or we attacked some words in an article rather than examined real life actions. When that happens, we have acted no differently and no better than those we are accusing of wrong-doing.
I pray we would all grow in the grace of our Lord and Savior as we bear, believe, hope, and endure all things for the well-being of our brothers and sisters in Christ. May we seek to be well-informed, truly discerning members of the church.
Brian Thornton
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Brian Thornton
You had said:
“We were members of a church for several years where the main preaching pastor/elder expressed his dislike for Facebook, but he NEVER told us not to be on it. I had no problem with him expressing his opinion about it, but I believe he would have crossed over the line had he ever begun to tell us we shouldn’t (or couldn’t) be involved on it. Had he done so, I am sure we would have left pretty soon.”
I think that a pastors job is to preach the WORD OF GOD. What does his PRIVATE opinion of Facebook have to do with the WORD OF GOD?
You had no problem with him expressing his opinion about it, but I would have had a problem with it.
It’s not his place for personal opinions behind a pulpit. He is to preach the WORD OF GOD, and nothing more.
Not only that, I could care less what he thinks about COFFEE, The price of gas, or what kind of car he likes. I don’t care if he hates to watch television, or likes football. His opinion doesn’t matter. What matters is for him to preach the WORD OF GOD. Period.
Ed
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“It is not unbiblical for certain people to lead and even admonish (which can sometimes mean to warn or give disapproval, albeit in a friendly way, if possible). The Bible also gives authority to some to teach what the Bible teaches, which implies that there are clear things to be taught.”
So how does that work? All one needs is a title conferred by other humans? You see the problem, right? It really all depends on the relationship and what is being admonished. Admonishing for many of the things we have seen out of SGM, 9 Marks, etc, is “extra biblical”.
And when the NT talks about teaching scripture it is not even talking about the NT! That is another irony.
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“My, my, you would have thought that Brian Thornton was advocating devil-worship considering many of the reactions to his post. People who have authority over you in a church?”
I am really proud of Brian. But I have noticed his post and comments are very different from his tweets. It is funny how that works when one asks people to get specific in application when it comes to certain teachings.
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Brief interruption:
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Lydia
You had said:
“And when the NT talks about teaching scripture it is not even talking about the NT! That is another irony.”
Amen to that. After Jesus rose from the dead, he revealed himself using ALL OF THE LAW (TORAH (Genesis – Deuteronomy)) and ALL of the Prophets.
The Apostle’s taught Jesus from the Torah and the Prophets. The Berean’s went to the synagogue and searched THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS out to see if “those things were so”.
There is SO MUCH Spiritual things to learn that was written in THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS, other than the carnal exegesis that most teach.
For example:
Why was Moses NOT ALLOWED to enter into the “Promised Land”?
There is a carnal reason.
There is a spiritual reason.
What is the answer to both?
Carnal:
Spiritual:
There is so much to learn, so much hidden treasure to find.
Ed
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“Your pastor told you that if don’t submit that your salvation was in question? Whoa!”
Yes, Julie Anne. It had to do with their interpretation of 1 John 4:3 “and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” They believed that when someone in spiritual authority spoke to you that it was “Jesus in the flesh” to you. (“We beseech you in Christ’s stead”) So to not submit made you the spirit of the Antichrist. Pretty crafty, no? But it’s so Biblical! (Sarcasm)
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I agree, Lydia. It seems very strange, the difference in the tone here and those of his tweets. I’d like to know the answer to A Mom’s question, too, as well as why in the world would someone ask another person on the internet if they’re in submission to elders? That’s such a bizarre thing, and I’ve never had anyone ask me that ever. Is that a common thing for you to ask people, Brian? Or does it really have something to do with Julie Anne being a woman?
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Proper tone is very hard to convey when you only have 140 characters to ask a question. It is much easier to convey when you’re able to write multiple paragraphs. The comments regarding my questions and Julie Anne being a woman are nothing but a red herring.
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Brian, Not trying to offend you. Can you tell us how many times you’ve tweeted another man asking if they’re submitting to elders? Have you ever done that?
It’s a pretty simple question.
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No, Brian, they’re not a red herring. They impact directly on your topic and how it came to pass that you were invited to write a post here.
You write a guest post about submission to elders. You asked Julie Anne if she was in submission to elders. The questions are germane, and I would appreciate it if you would answer them.
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Brian, I am a little astonished that you bristle at this question. Your answer will provide the context in which we can understand your tweet, right?
I am interested in facts, not generalities. Wouldn’t you want us to be?
I hope you rethink and decide to respond.
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Well, I will not be able to tell you how many times I have asked a man if he is submitting to elders, but I have asked that question to men on more than one occasion. I can tell you for certain, though, that I have asked only one female that question.
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It seems like a very creepy question to ask of a stranger. And in the context of SSB topics it comes across as ‘sin-sniffing’.
I guess my next question would be why you feel that it’s an important question to ask a stranger. Does it make a difference in the big picture, or is it just a point you wish to make with people?
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Can you provide some context regarding those discussions? Was it in regards to sexual sin, immorality? Or was it regarding interpretation of scripture? I have never heard of anyone asking someone else if they’re submitting to elder authority & am trying to understand the context in which someone would be concerned about that.
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“I can tell you for certain, though, that I have asked only one female that question.”
How come only one female?
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The red herring is in him wanting to know about someone elses submission to authority. It’s just another way used to put people down for being “unbiblical.”
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@ A Mom~
“I have never heard of anyone asking someone else if they’re submitting to elder authority & am trying to understand the context in which someone would be concerned about that.”
Remember Brian wrote above (Aug 11 6:42) that he was a huge supporter of SGM until the scandal broke? “Huge supporter” to me indicates that he sure did like them. What specifically about SGM he liked and supported, I do not know. But, as you know, SGM had its roots in the shepherding error of the 70s…indeed, Tomczak, Mahaney’s partner, was hanging at times with some of the Ft. Lauderdal Five crowd.
I don’t know how one can be a huge supporter of SGM and not know about its history. I wonder if Brian ever researched SGM’s history…or did he like them because others did and it was popular to like SGM a few years ago?
So, for someone such as Brian to ask…are you in submission to elders…would seem very normal to me if one adhered to shepherding as SGM practiced it and/or was a huge supporter of SGM.
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This tweet in particular, Brian, was offensive to me. Maybe you don’t see it, but it comes off as “holier than thou”. It also comes off as dismissive, to respond to concerns about abuse of authority by asking if someone is submitting to their elders. It seems like you think that’s the problem.
I would never tell anyone they’re out of line for being concerned about abuse of authority. Would asking the players if they are submitting to the coach be the appropriate way to handle the Sandusky Penn-State situation?
The context of the discussion is that authority is being abused, which is leading to horrid abuses, including children in the church. A concern that there’s an unbalanced preoccupation with authority. What we’ve been discussing here is our concern & how to fix the problem. Various reasons, opinions & solutions have been discussed here, in civility for the most part. That’s not free or able to happen in most churches, I might add.
It seems you find these spiritual abuse blogs (you mentioned TWW in your tweet) offensive in some way. That we need to learn a thing or two about submitting to elder authority.
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Brian,
No one is making anyone do anything here on this blog. There is no authority or control over anyone here whatsoever. We are discussing. Yet your answer to JA’s tweet about a lot of church leaders spending more time focused on “biblical” authority, was basically that she needed “to submit”. It seems you find even the mere questioning of church authority unacceptable. Your response to her was basically, “get back in line”.
In the mean time, the appalling actions of popular leaders “in authority” (like CJ, Dever, Mohler, MacDonald, Driscoll) and their rules are unacceptable. Do you find their actions unacceptable? What has your response been to them?
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Janna: Thanks for offering some thought-provoking possible explanations for why liturgical churches seem to have less prevalence of spiritual abuse. I want to think them over more. Very helpful
Monax: I like your spade-work with Hebrews 13:17. I think the verse is so clear in the Greek, it just seems scandalous how it has been translated time and again into English to mean something it doesn’t.
Brian and Julie: Thanks again for such a great discussion.
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“Remember Brian wrote above (Aug 11 6:42) that he was a huge supporter of SGM until the scandal broke? ”
There seems to be lots of cognitive dissonance going on in that whole New Calvinist movement. The shepherding cult that is SGM has a long history of abuses yet SUPPORT and promotion from Dever, Mohler, Piper, Driscoll,etc. The people in that movement are ignoring so much. Their hero’s and gurus actually like the shepherding cult methods– you can see it in their words and actions. They admired Mahaney for his “strong leadership” (Mohler to a reporter). They attempted to cover for him time and time again and rebuke anyone who spoke out. Often insulting them. They wrote a Mahaney support statement–then taken it down after a few hours when negative comments came flooding in, then edited it and put it on another website then deleted it altogether. They are not used to this scrutiny—-because they are elders, pastors, etc who are not used to being questioned.
This attitude from the leaders is how Brian was able to tweet “are you submitting to your elders” without even thinking it was wrong or even a strange thing to say. It is normal in that world to respond that way to people who ask uncomfortable questions. Make them the sinner. instead. They redefine sin.
The thing that concerns me is how ingrained that cult thinking is with so many followers out there. They have revered the leaders of this movement and believed everything they taught is biblical. Frankly, I don’t blame Brian that much except he has been caught up in a movement and used like so many other people. He checked his brains at the door thinking he was obeying God by doing so. There are thousands and thousands of men (and women) just like him out there.
What is missing from that movement? The Holy Spirit. The entire movement is man focused and man centered with thousands of people looking to Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc on what to believe.
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BTDT said:
That’s right – you mentioned it was similar to Oneness Pentecostal. I’ve done posts on a OP church before, Faith Tabernacle. Those articles have received more hits than any others. I’ve also been told they are not allowed to have tvs and computers at home. That tells me that people are questioning what is going on. I hope they find the truth and also find strength to leave.
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Excellent comment, Lydia. I would add that this rejection of the Holy Spirit acting directly on each believer has been replaced with an elevation of the Bible to being a de facto fourth member of the Trinity.
I came across the shadowingabigail blog recently. This quote from one of the posts seems very relevant, “When did “useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness” become “absolutely without error, 100% the voice of God spoken through man as hollow vessel”?
When did “the Word” stop being Jesus Christ and become the Bible?”
There is a loud faction of Christendom that has placed adherence to the rule book above loving our neighbors. This is distressing.
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Steve (Liberty for Captives said):
I’m wondering about this. Why would translators monkey around so much with this word? I don’t know the process of translation and how words are approved/not approved. Could someone in power have nixed the original meaning of the word? It would make sense that a power=hungry person would want to change this meaning in oder to have more power.
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Brian,
My question is, why do you feel the need/want/desire to even ask that question in the first place?????
I ask that for a particular reason.
You gave generalities of BASIC submission in regards to Bible study groups, standing and sitting, etc., which, by the way, I don’t think that anyone has a problem with those.
But the way that you specifically asked the original question was NOT in that same tone.
So, I ask again, why do you feel the need/want/desire to even ask that question in the first place?
There is DEFINITELY something MORE to your question that you are NOT telling us, when you asked Julie Anne that question.
And you know that it has nothing to do with submitting to the leader that states, “Let’s Stand while we sing this hymn.”
Even I don’t obey that one when I don’t want to stand. Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. I prefer to sit…period.
Ed
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@ Lydia~
Thanks for expanding on my comment. Excellent comment and you are right. I have never been spiritually abused by a church. I have no past experience directing my present opinions. When I found out who CJ Mahaney was in June of 2011 after watching what I considered an emotionally unhealthy man speak, I wondered who is this man… and why do so many professing Christian leaders respect him? I put it out of my mind until I happened on an article with a headline about CJ Mahaney stepping down from SGM shortly thereafter in Juy. I remembered it was the man I saw speaking and I googled out of curiosity.
Sad to day…I found the survivor websites right off the bat and read and read. Then I investigated the roots of SGM/shepherding and read every page of the documents.
I often wonder if the huge supporters of SGM ever do what I did.
How can anyone ignore 2 if not 3 survivor blogs dedicated to exposing their unresolved grievances/abuses (both physical and spiritual in nature) against a family of churches?? What gives with that? Why would one “support” that–and one is supporting that if one is a huge supporter. It cannot be ignored/separated.
.
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“I’m wondering about this. Why would translators monkey around so much with this word? I don’t know the process of translation and how words are approved/not approved. Could someone in power have nixed the original meaning of the word? It would make sense that a power=hungry person would want to change this meaning in oder to have more power.”
Boy, I had the same question and did some research. I had never really heard Hebrews 13:17 used this way until the last 15 years or so. I suppose those teaching in my upbringing focused more on all the one another’s, not lording it over, etc, that are much more prevalent than this mistranslated authoritarian proof text which seemed to be Mahaney’s fav?
One interesting thing is to read the long preface to the KJ. It is online somewhere. (It is not in most KJ bibles because it is so long!) Anyway most translations were a result of power politics of the time. Church/state. So the question is why did they choose certain authoritarian words for the translation when the same Greek word is translated differently elsewhere in the NT? The answer I came to was the divine right of kings, so to speak. They had to translate in a way to keep the pecking order of society intact especially as things were not really secure. With the KJ you had a new king that many were suspicious of since his mum was Catholic. Other translations have their own backgrounds. Like the Geneva bible.
I am to the point where I find it pertinent to read the historical background on a translation. Even the ESV has it’s own interesting history when you look at the players and the publisher.
One translation that got totally trashed for no real good reason is the TNIV. The nasty propaganda surrounding that one is notorious. It is amazing how power politics have shaped translations in even the marketing!
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Lydia said:
This really makes a lot of sense to me, Lydia. CON talked all the time about authoritative preaching vs watered-down preaching and prided himself that he preached the Word of God with authority. That is a big topic at Grace Community (his favorite pastor is John MacArthur). Friends of mine went to a conference last summer and heard John Mac in which he mentioned that he sees his first priority is to protect the pastorate. This is now different than we have seen at SGM where even church leader has allegedly sexually abused, but it extends to covering for each other about “looking the other way,” and outside of SGM to CJ’s friends.
Take a look at this: Chuck O’Neal was allowed to go to the Shepherd’s Conference this last year. Grace Community leaders knew he had sued me and disapproved of that, but looked the other way and allowed a wolf and his followers to attend. They let a pastor attend who was in discipline and had his license revoked. So much for protecting the sheep, huh? I’m appalled at this protect-the-pastor-at-all-costs among these weak men who call themselves shepherds. They seem to mouth that they are shepherds, but they are really shepherds for pastors only.
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JA said: “That’s right – you mentioned it was similar to Oneness Pentecostal. I’ve done posts on a OP church before, Faith Tabernacle.”
And Lydia @7:39 does a beautiful job of explaining SGM’s beginnings in the Shepherding movement. Shepherding was birthed in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. Now these teachings are being extolled through Mohler, Dever, et al to the SBC, the second largest Christian denomination in the U.S. behind the Catholic faith. Am I off in connecting the dots in this way? What I’ve read of SGM sounds very similar to my own experience.
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“How can anyone ignore 2 if not 3 survivor blogs dedicated to exposing their unresolved grievances/abuses (both physical and spiritual in nature) against a family of churches?? What gives with that? Why would one “support” that–and one is supporting that if one is a huge supporter. It cannot be ignored/separated.”
Group think? Look at movements throughout history. Amazing what people (mostly the young) will believe and pledge allegiance to even with all the red flags waving. For example, if a guy looks up to Mohler and he endorses Mahaney then that makes Mahaney ok and then it goes even further to defending Mahaney (because Mohler does) until it becomes an embarrassment. Then when it gets too big to defend, one pretends like only Mahaney is the problem after much ignoring of facts and even to the point of claiming Mahaney had nothing to do with any of the spiritual abuse and protecting molester. But wait! Just last year he was a strong leader and those bloggers just don’t like strong leaders!. They are sinfully rebelling.
So only Mahaney becomes the problem…NOT the movement that embraced him for years despite the huge red flags waving. But the movement IS the problem. People suspend their own thinking abilities for that of the gurus. (We have all done this to some degree and hopefully age/wisdom takes care of some of it. The scary part is that is not happening in this movement)
I think it goes back to a larger problem in our society. We are losing our individualism (some call that sin) for the collective. We have been taught to be good little socialists who look to someone else for our material (gov) or spiritual needs (pastor).
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It’s funny that you mention Bible translations. There is a Christian comedian that jokes around about the message Bible.
He states, “Jesus turned water into wine coolers? What is this?”
But, I use the KJV pretty exclusively. I do compare with others, but I hold a Strong’s Concordance. I find that the English in those days, people understood. For example:
Thee
Thou
betwixt.
But what got me was the word “suffer”, i.e. “Suffer the little children”.
What? They want the little children to suffer?
But, when I looked up the Greek word for it, the definition was pertaining to “PERMIT”, or LET.
But, it was a word used in 1611 that people understood that did not mean suffer as we know it today.
So, I say all that to disagree with you in regards to the King.
I also know that the KJV is pretty close to being word for word from the Geneva bible.
Ed
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Control freaks everywhere, I tell you.
I’m reminded of a situation at BGBC in which a woman (who is still there) asked a question about submission. Soon after, the pastor/elders visited her house for hours, uninvited. (I wonder if her husband was there?) When she told me the story, she had tears in her eyes and talked about how they were right and her pride and unsubmissive spirit were the problem. UGH! This is the same woman who validated my concern and told me Chuck O’Neal had veto power even over the shade of flower in the silk flower arrangement. Yea, that shows a powerful man alrighty.
I tell you what, I wish I knew what I know now. Can you imagine having 3 men come to your house to correct your thinking? No, that’s bully behavior. You can be sure she was beat down to a very lowly state in order to switch like that. It makes me sick to see her family still there when she really did know the truth.
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“What I’ve read of SGM sounds very similar to my own experience.”
The early SGM people (Take and Give, PDI, etc) seem to point it to the Jesus Movement of the 70’s. That is where the shepherding cult type of groups seemed to come out of. The Ft Lauderdale 5 is another example. Mahaney was a Charismatic Catholic, I believe.
I still shake my head that Mohler teamed up with an “Apostle” from the “People of Destiny”. Can you say, cult name? No wonder CJ changed it. The big boys would never have accepted him.
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Ed, I am no translation Nazi. I read whatever is close by as I have a ton of them. I pray the Holy Spirit illuminates and let that part go. I mainly use an interlinear for study.
I really loved my NKJ Study bible which was totally marked up and that makes it irreplaceable. But it was stolen when my car was broken into a few years back. I am hoping the thief made use of it. :o)
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Lydia – look at this one: John MacArthur invited CJ Mahaney to speak at Shepherd’s Conferences (not anymore), but I think he went several years. John MacArthur has shared a platform with him at many venues. Yet, you should hear the strong words he has to say against charismatics – subscribing to charismatic ideology is pretty much heresy in his eyes. I’ve seen places where SGM refers to themselves as reformed charismatics. If JMac was that strong against charismatics, why did he allow CJ to speak? Did CJ’s public stance on pastoral authority win him over? Did he put his fingers in his ears saying “la-la-la-la” when he heard about CJ and his charismania?
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Mahaney and Tomczak were both charismatic Catholics.
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It’s really important to understand one more thing. Because this discussion is on the internet, on blogs, & through tweets we are able to think & speak freely.
However, if JA were to say what she tweeted in these types of “authority-based” chain of command churches (direct line from God Himself, to pastor, to elder, to husband, to wife) then the usurping of authority crime would be handed down & her correction, punishment would be in full force. Shaming, shunning, blackmail (CJ), damaging family & work relationships, pressure to conform, etc.
JA would be placed in church discipline or be pressured to leave or feel the need to leave. So would the rest of us who would dare to even question authority.
In many American churches: Discussions like these are prevented from happening. They are stopped cold. They rarely happen. Abuses can pile up for decades, for generations, in the same church. Because of authority.
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“Abuses can pile up for decades, for generations, in the same church. Because of authority.”
Can and DO pile up, A Mom. And the victims are having a difficult time making their voices heard for the very reasons you described.
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Julie Anne, If someone could do a sort of “connect the networks” like David Horowitz did at Front page mag it would be astounding when it comes to Mahaney ALONE in that movement. So much hypocrisy in that entire movement. (I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this over the years but Mahaney plays the humble court jester and slavers on the flattery to those guys)
Piper went after NT Wright with a vengeance over Justification but just within the last few months preached at Mahaney’s Marriott Hotel church praising/defending him.(Same with Grudem, Bridges, Dever, and others. Many have made the pilgrimage to prop him up)
Mohler implied the SBC Trad statement signers (some seminary presidents like him) were heretics because of their belief in Free Will. Yet, he has defended Mahaney to the last.
These guys have NO moral credibility at all. That is the part I cannot understand from their followers. Do they not see it? Are they really that blinded?
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Lydia, I am no Nazi, trust me…I love the Jews…It is their God that I worship.
But, I am big on translation. I NEED to know what definitions are. I do NOT trust other Bibles after being proselytized by a Jehovah’s Witness who has their own Bible, inspired by WESCOTT AND HORT, who has inspired many Bible translations out of whack.
Some are written is such a way that removes any hint of the deity of Jesus. I am always leery of translations.
That is why I don’t just “take their word”, or “trust” anyone until I check it out myself. Isn’t that what being a Berean is all about? Yes, I think so.
Ed
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“Julie Anne, If someone could do a sort of “connect the networks” like David Horowitz did at Front page mag it would be astounding when it comes to Mahaney ALONE in that movement.”
Lydia, it would have to be a man to head that up, ya know. We women are prone to being deceived just like Eve. (I hope you can read the heavy sarcasm in that statement. But, I’m sure you know there are many men who would say that in all seriousness.)
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“Can and DO pile up, A Mom. And the victims are having a difficult time making their voices heard for the very reasons you described.”
The ONLY way to do it is to leave the church. (If you signed a “covenant” make sure you put in writing you are no longer a member) which is hard to do, I know. But no one is going to change the environment from within it. And yes, they will do all they can to marginalize you and your family.
The only way to deal with this is to educate the people who give them money. If the money dries up, they will have to find a stage and followers somewhere else. It is all they know how to do, you know.
If you leave no one owns your voice but you as long as we have free speech in this country. You ARE allowed to write about your own experiences. The biggest mistake people make is in thinking they can change a tyrant.
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This is very true, A Mom. Which makes me suspect that there is some underlying motive for Brian asking Julie Anne if she was under submission to elders. I wish Brian would explain why that question to Julie Anne came out of the blue.
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A Mom – Lydia – All
Here is another blog by a young EX-pastor who has also resigned…
Eric Carpenter – “A Pilgrims Progress”
“I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring”
http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2010/09/ive-resigned-from-professional.html
——————-
“I’m not sure how else to say this, so here it is:
I’ve resigned from professional pastoring.
After much study of scripture, prayer, discussions with some of my friends, and reading good books, I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer in good conscience remain a salaried pastor. I cannot find it anywhere in the bible, so I’m not going to do it.”
——————
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Lydia – I wrote: “It is not unbiblical for certain people to lead and even admonish (which can sometimes mean to warn or give disapproval, albeit in a friendly way, if possible). The Bible also gives authority to some to teach what the Bible teaches, which implies that there are clear things to be taught.”
You wrote: So how does that work? All one needs is a title conferred by other humans? You see the problem, right? It really all depends on the relationship and what is being admonished. Admonishing for many of the things we have seen out of SGM, 9 Marks, etc, is “extra biblical”.
Anything good *can* be corrupted, but it doesn’t follow that it *has* to be. SGM, etc., being corrupt does not mean all churches are corrupt. That was one of Brian’s main points.
Eldership is so significant that the Bible takes pains to point out the necessary qualifications. But of course that’s no guarantee that qualified elders will be chosen. One of the reasons I left my last congregation was because all three of the elders were unqualified.
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“Lydia, it would have to be a man to head that up, ya know. We women are prone to being deceived just like Eve. (I hope you can read the heavy sarcasm in that statement. But, I’m sure you know there are many men who would say that in all seriousness.)”
That attitude used to concern me but no more. I had to be reminded that Jesus Christ first appeared to WOMEN to go back with the Good News to the men. Wouldn’t they be too deceived to do so? In that day and time, their “witness” was not considered the same as a man’s. I think God has purpose and a sense of humor in such matters. But then, the WOMEN were the ones who went to the grave that morning, weren’t they?
We have to get over being called “emotional”, bitter, angry, etc, etc. So what? We SHOULD get angry over children being molested and molesters being given a pass. Only an immoral Cretin would think child molestation is no big deal and the child victim just as big a sinner as the pervert who molested her. That was SGM’s response. There is moral chaos in that ENTIRE movement. I would not trust them with my family recipes.
Quite frankly, they are the ones who look like idiots with their teaching on women. Too much has taken place in society for that to have any sway with anyone but those for whom it benefits for whatever personality disorder they harbor. Women are rocket scientists, doctors, etc. But they are too deceived to be believed? They are the ones who look like Neanderthals. And believe me, the unbelieving world sees right through this silliness.
I got a big kick out of the comps during the Sarah Palin VP run. See, she could be VP but she could not lead a bible study with her staff. Piper was just about in pretzel twists over this conundrum. (Could she give directions to a man?) That was basically their teaching. Now, Voddie Baucham went on CNN and was more honest. He said she should be home tending to her family.
Logical thinking is not in vogue in that movement. You really have to check your brains to follow these guys.
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Hey, Ed, your mentioning of Jews reminds me that you never answered my question: “Can Jews who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior be saved today?”
Sorry, JA, if I’m hijacking this thread.
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SharperIron.org influenced 2 posts from last week and also the tweet above. Look at this discussion at SharperIron:
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BTW, when I post a tweet like that, the links actually work. (don’t ask me how it works, but I just noticed it works)
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A Amos Love,
Keep hooking us up! 🙂 This one was really good. Found it at the site you provided.
http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2013/08/feeling-like-unpersecuted-anabaptist.html
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Lydia,
I stand and applaud! I only wish we were having this conversation face to face so I could give you a hug.
Yeah, I checked my brains at the door many years ago. I was ignorant. I won’t check them at the door any more. I’m thankful for the “discernment” blogs.
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“Eldership is so significant that the Bible takes pains to point out the necessary qualifications. But of course that’s no guarantee that qualified elders will be chosen. One of the reasons I left my last congregation was because all three of the elders were unqualified.”
Actually Jeff, that is not really the case when one takes in the entire pericope. Who are the elders of the Corinthian church? Philippi? Roman? Why are most of the Epistles written to the ENTIRE church to carry out the suggestions within? Why not write them specifically to the elders that oversee such things? Did they even have elders? Why aren’t they mentioned specifically? Especially that situation in the Corinthian churcn (chap 5) should have been dealt with by elders, right? How many years had the Corinthian church been around and no mention of elders in that Epistle? Strange. Some think 9 years! Oh, and don’t forget Diotrephes.
How many times do we see Paul tell someone to “appoint” elders? (That word can also mean “voting” in some Greek uses)
This is so typical of taking a historical context and making it a rule for everyone, everywhere, all the time. Read history. When such functions in the Body were made into authoritarian offices, the blood started to flow….In the Name of Jesus, of course. Humans often make uses of authority and position and call it from God. It impugns His character and is a dangerous thing to do.
Viola did a great historical summary about this issue that used to be free. Sadly now we are going to have to buy it:
Click to access straight.pdf
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Julie Anne
Seems your persistance at SharperIron opened some eyes.
Todd Bowditch, and Greg Long, both thanking you – Cool… 😉
“Julie, I appreciate your willingness to do research and support your statements. I think that your engaging in the discussion reflects better for your position than others who have presented ideas on this thread.”
What a nice compliment. Or is that – complement…
http://sharperiron.org/filings/8-2-13/28030
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BTDT,
YOU are the daughter of a King. Never forget that. :o)
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Jeff,
I sense that you have a motive for asking me that question, but my answer is YES.
However, God blinded the Jews from the get go, and it is only God that can unblind the Jews in the end.
I also firmly believe that those who God blinded will receive MERCY from God, just as God has MERCY on the Gentiles that have no knowledge.
There were things that Jesus said to his own disciples that had no clue what Jesus was talking about. He told them to understand that the son of man was going to be crucified…but they couldn’t, because it was hid from them to understand.
And, Jesus, while on the cross said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. So, the Jews do NOT hold the guilt of crucifying Jesus, since they are forgiven.
God deals with the Jews much differently than he deals with us. The Jews are a light to the Gentiles. Without Judaism, there would be no Christianity. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not a replacement of. Christianity is not a new religion that derived from Judaism.
One thing that is missing from most preaching these days is MERCY. Lot’s of talk about Grace, but not mercy.
My ref’s are Romans 2:14-16, and Romans 9-11.
Ed
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A Mom,
There is much to admire about the anabaptists, yes. Things do not always “flesh out,” though, as it is written on paper. The Amish practice a very patriarchal order in their communities as well. And the sexual abuse of children is, to quote one article, “like a plague” in some communities.
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BTDT, I loved Ana Baptist history (but they are not monolithic) UNTIL they came to freedom here. Strange how that works! Their women had freedom to operate/function in the Body UNTIL they got freedom!
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BTDT said:
I really don’t think you will check them in at the door again.
Readers: This week I plan on posting BTDT’s personal spiritual abuse story. It is an amazing story. I get teary-eyed just thinking about it.
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Jeff Brown
Much agreement when you write…
“Eldership is so significant that the Bible takes pains
to point out *the necessary qualifications.* But of course
that’s no guarantee that qualified elders will be chosen.”
Only problem – I never met an elder/overseer, Today, who meets the qulifications. NO really – Have you ever checked out Pauls tough qualifications? Have you ever wondered? Why? – Paul gives such tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, for Elder/Overseer if NOT important? For something? For some purpose?
Can we dismiss them all? How many are NOT important?
I’ve noticed, most who desire to be an elder/overseer “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Position” of Power – Profit – Prestige.
Titus 1:6-8 KJV – says it nicely.
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men,
sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
That *must be* the same Greek word …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
*Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s, necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes?
Is – Blameless – important?
1 – Blameless – Strongs #410 anegkletos, unaccused, irreproachable.
Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV – The bishop therefore must be without reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NIV – Now the overseer must be above reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NLT – For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many “Elder/Overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey! 😉
Aren’t ALL the requirements important? Which one’s can we ignore?
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Lydia,
Now that’s interesting. It reminds me of stories I’ve heard about the deep faith of Christians in hard-line Communist Russia and China. It seems to be changing now that they have more freedom. (I have no sources to cite. Just what I’ve heard.)
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Amos: Thanks for reminding me that I did not thank those two gentlemen for the nice compliment. I’m spelling it with the “i.” 🙂
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Julie Anne
And that’s a tuff crowd over there – Nicely done…
And “complement” in this case also sounds pretty good…
1 a thing that completes or brings to perfection:
the libretto proved a perfect complement to the music.
2 [ in sing. ] a number or quantity of something required to make a group complete
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Lydia – You have an interesting hermeneutic: If a topic isn’t mentioned in Scripture every time that topic *could* be mentioned, then it isn’t valid. I’m not sure even Jesus would pass that test.
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Jeff Brown
Here’s two more qualifications from Titus for “Elder/Overseer” that most who want to be an “Elder/Overseer” today tend to *Ignore* or “Twist.”
Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men,
sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
Now that’s three tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers.”
1 – Must Be Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. — Yes?
Makes an interesting study – checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “Pastor/Elder/Overseers” – Then checking out those who say they are “Pastor/Elder/Overseers” compared to the qualifications. 🙂
I was ordained. I was in “Leadership.” Oy Vey!!! 😦
Folks told me I had this so-called “Gift of Leadership.” 😦
And I “Ignored” these qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer. 😦
Pro 29:5 KJV
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Pro 20:17 KJV
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
I believed the flattery – I was special – I was needed –
To build the body of Christ.
I deceived myself and wound up eating a lot of gravel. 😦
NOPE – Never met a pastor/elder/overseer who meets the Qualifications.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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Julie Anne,
I’m humbled and nervous. I’ve been participating on SSB and TWW for several months now. Just yesterday my husband said, “They’re (meaning our former church) probably monitoring Julie Anne’s blog.” He’s nervous, too. He’s completely on board with me sharing. But our stress hormone levels are pretty high right now. 🙂
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“Viola did a great historical summary about this issue that used to be free. Sadly now we are going to have to buy it”
You can read Straight Talk To Pastors free here if anyone is interested:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:gZ7ZAb3obpYJ:frankviola.org/elders.htm+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjFZYRFPHtfipF9LLHr5rMVCtt5-NuZVz8FVhWVnBPUUqaWrxdb4xrw9H9QGGCB3g8xqQa2hWf867iskLkkTNA3fNJuElLprv_54sGNFQoSsYDtXIYF4vdtNc1nVc3Uyl_IhF7W&sig=AHIEtbT07sgqvOKnR-8RjBOYHbPyyxKpOg
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BTDT: Should we wait on it? I won’t do it if you are feeling the least bit unsure. It’s not worth the stress. Send me an e-mail or we can talk 🙂 I don’t want you to feel any pressure.
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Eagle – If you are reading, I just posted your comment along with my thanks at the SharperIron forum. You might want to follow it to see if there are new comment regarding your comment. Thanks for giving me permission to share over there. It was an excellent thought-provoking comment. http://sharperiron.org/filings/8-2-13/28030
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Julie Anne,
No. It’s time. The other day, after I reacted so strongly here to that tweet you received, I was so restless and crying the rest of the day. That’s why I decided to type it up and send it to you. It just seems like it’s time.
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That’s terrible and sad that you even have to worry about that. It’s an unreasonable request for people like Brian to demand that people who have been spiritually abused simply trust another group of elders without question.
Ronald Reagan used the Russian proverb of “Trust, but verify” when dealing with the Soviet Union on nuclear disarmament. That works fine between equal powers; not so much for individuals who have been beaten down by those in power. For us, it has to be “Verify, then trust.”
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“Lydia – You have an interesting hermeneutic: If a topic isn’t mentioned in Scripture every time that topic *could* be mentioned, then it isn’t valid. I’m not sure even Jesus would pass that test.”
Convenient response to ignore serious questions?. Make it a sin of sorts?. I never said it was not valid. The entire conversation is valid. It is not a sin to question what is and is not there…..as in “appointing elders” is very specific in a personal letter and a specific place.. I was giving examples of why some might make it MORE than valid..as in.making it a rule when it obviously isn’t. If it is not a “rule” then the human authority gig in the Body of Christ would not work so well as a club to beat folks with. And maybe more young men would pray we submit to Christ and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us instead of demanding we submit to mere human elders?
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JA, You have so much wisdom here. So many rich thinkers here. The light of truth brings clarity. I think many are being blessed, refreshed, including me.
I would not trust them with anything. That includes money and most precious children.
Almost all of us have written about moral actions, doing. Not unto salvation. Nor is the discussion about looking into someone’s heart. The discussion is about actions. The Bible talks about a seared conscience in 1 Timothy 4. If you look at the entire chapter, it says (ESV), “For everything created by God is good, train yourself with godliness, we toil & strive, teachers are to set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity; Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching”.
These same untrustworthy leaders, who aren’t willing to examine their own actions, are the ones who require, demand authority & submission. And remind us all that we are profoundly broken. SBTS pastors coming soon to a church near you. You can even tell by the (less than 144 words?) tweet, that they are from SBTS. Their view of children. Their view of how horrid we all are. This will always tip you off.
Tweet from pastor Steve McCoy, “Teach your children they are broken. Deeply broken.” 11:45 AM – 1 Jul 13
Friends, this isn’t what 1 Timothy 4 says.
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Diane, I bow to your expertise!
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Hey All, I had a comment come in privately and I want to address one aspect of it. I’ve been so appreciative of Brian’s willingness to take the time and respond to our questions. The question about me submitting to elders is a very good question. I have the same questions that you have regarding why I have been asked this question so many times. I highly doubt that men are asked that question.
Brian seems to be dealing with us honestly. I have no reason to doubt his truthfulness and so I won’t. Brian already disclosed to us that he was in a spiritually abusive church. He is apparently in a church that has a strong authority structure. I still have not gathered the inner-workings of that authority structure and how it plays into Brian’s day-to-day life. But here’s the deal. He, too, is a survivor. And because of that, he deserves the love and respect and graciousness that we hope to receive. I think he has answered the questions to the best of his ability.
You (we) have given great questions. The reality of the recovery process is that it is a process like peeling layers of an onion. There is a very good chance that Brian may come back to this thread a year from now and realize that he would have different answers. I know that to be true for me. I am 100% certain that any one of you could look back on the BGBCSurvivors blog and find inconsistencies with what I say now vs then. That is because I am still changing and growing.
So, with all of that, I urge you to not put a lot of pressure in getting Brian to see what you see. Sometimes in our challenging, we can get close to the line of acting a bit like a bully (or even somewhat like our abusers who forced their ways on us). Let’s try to create an environment that questions, yet gives some room for the Holy Spirit to do His thang.
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BTDT: Think back on our sweet time together in Dallas. Remember that long hug? Good grief, the tears are flowing again. I am hugging you now across the miles. You are so loved. I know exactly the emotional place where you are at – – -I will never ever forget it for me – – – I can feel it deeply.
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You are so right. I love what I see here – I have learned so much – – – so, so much.
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The saddest fact that remains is that oftentimes people who are abused become abusers themselves; that’s what I saw on Twitter, and I reacted instinctively instead of thoughtfully and compassionately (I am fiercely protective of my friends, to a fault when I don’t pause first). I apologize to you for that, Brian, and for baiting you into reacting to some of my other tweets.
I think he has, too, and also been courageous enough to knowing step into what could have been a lion’s den. Hopefully, in reading the comments and stories here, he can come to a place of greater acceptance of those who refuse to submit to human authority.
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Julie Anne,
Even though I do not believe in God (honestly, I wish I COULD), what I DO believe in is the inherent goodness of ordinary people. Part of the reason I still attend church is because of that, and the belief that churches do good work through Missions and Outreach and the work they do in creating a caring community – which I don’t see as a personal dichotomy. As I have stated before, I think we should all be more like Jesus in that regard. So I hope you can accept my honest and sincere sympathy to those who have been hurt in church circles. I don’t think anyone should ever leave a sanctuary angry or upset – there’s something wrong with that. If this forum and others are helping in that regard, then you are performing a wonderful task in reaching out. I am thinking good (and healing) thoughts about BTDT. . . .smile. . . xx
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Thank you, Carmen. I think if Christians realized what kind of image they are presenting to unbelievers, they might change some of their ways.
I pray that one day you will encounter the real love of Christ, not the distorted Christ that seems to get all the press.
I always appreciate your comments here, Carmen.
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Ed – My only motivation is that our conversation broke off just before you were going to answer this question.
Yes, there is a type of blindness given only to Jews as a result of their continued rejection of Messiah. Rom 11:25 calls it a temporary “partial hardening.” But there has always been a remnant among the Jews who have been saved. I think that since the end of WW II there has been a relatively huge number.
Concerning those responsible for crucifying the Messiah, according to Acts 4:27-28 it was Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel.
“God deals with the Jews much differently than he deals with us. The Jews are a light to the Gentiles. Without Judaism, there would be no Christianity. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not a replacement of. Christianity is not a new religion that derived from Judaism.
One thing that is missing from most preaching these days is MERCY. Lot’s of talk about Grace, but not mercy.”
Yep.
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Eric Fry,
“I am fiercely protective of my friends, to a fault when I don’t pause first.”
I see this as a good quality. Sometimes, when people are “disciplined” out of an abusive church they are shunned by long-time friends. These “friends” will not speak up on their behalf for fear of being “disciplined” themselves. So, thank you for your love and loyalty.
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Agree! This has been a super discussion. It is important to turn things over and examine them from many angles. Enough people have done the homework in so many similar areas. It is a wealth of knowledge that can be shared and/or challenged, in order to refine points further, so that everyone can ponder and grow further. Just lovin’ it!
Agree. In ‘church systems’ there is not much that one person or a small group can do to change that system. Removing oneself from a toxic system is primarily the first step. Being a voice to warn and challenge others regarding toxic systems is another step. Comparing light and darkness and exposing the darkness is an ongoing necessity.
BTDT, Thanks for your courage! Wrestling through these issues is very real. Your tears reflect what your heart knows–that these things are grievous and that telling it like it is, is liberating–both for you as a couple and for those who read about your story. Go for it! It is time. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. We stand with you and support you in this effort!
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A. Amos Love – Yes, the qualifications are stringent, but, as long as we remember that no man is without sin, I don’t think we can say that no one can qualify. As an example not having to do with eldership: “Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” – obviously, no one can attain that, though we can be striving for it.
A book I find helpful for translating from the Greek says of blameless, “‘unaccused’ of doing anything wrong, ‘not having been called in’ on any charge.” Still pretty strict, but attainable. And, of course, one can be wrongly accused.
Just – “Law-abiding, observant of right, upright, right with God and their fellow man.”
Holy – “‘Devout.’ That is, holy in character, pleasing to God, pure.” Once again, we can look for this without expecting perfection.
You’re certainly correct when you say that some qualifications are watered-down to get some people in. But I have seen some that I think qualify. One common lack I have found is ability to teach. I’ve known “elders” who were unable to teach beyond the most elementary level.
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Jeff, you had said:
“Yes, there is a type of blindness given only to Jews as a result of their continued rejection of Messiah. Rom 11:25 calls it a temporary “partial hardening.” But there has always been a remnant among the Jews who have been saved. I think that since the end of WW II there has been a relatively huge number.”
I disagree that their blindness is as a result of their continued rejection of the Messiah.
I had said from the Get Go.
Deuteronomy 29:4
yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
That means NEVER. It means that God has never given them a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear.
This has nothing to do with their disobedience or rejection of Jesus. They reject Jesus because God hasn’t given them a mind to understand.
I always cringe when Gentiles have an incorrect perception of why the Jews reject Jesus.
I firmly believe that all of the Jews who God blinded will be saved. After all, it isn’t their fault. They did not do anything wrong for it to be a punishment. God will have mercy on those.
And, it was the Jews who proclaimed at the cross that the blood be on them, and their children. The Gentile Roman was gonna let Jesus go, but the Jews yelled out, Crucify him, Crucify him.
Ed
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Jeff Brown –
Thanks for responding about the qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer.
I hope Brian will also respond…
Do we have to submit to elders who do NOT Qualify? 😉
NOT anymore – Thank You Jesus… 🙂
Here’s my take now on. – #4 – Rule well their own house.
The ESV has it – “must manage his own household well” – “Manage Well”
IMO – This is a major failure of wanna-be pastor/elder/overseers to “Qualify” based on 1 Tim 3:4-5. Which I’ll attempt to show – #4 – Will “dis-qualify” 70% – 80% of todays “Pastor/Leader/Reerends.”
1 Tim 3:4-5 KJV
One that *ruleth well* his own house,
having his children in subjection with all gravity; (Got any teenagers.) 😉
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house,
how shall he take care of the church of God?)
First – Let’s look at – “ruleth well” – Manage Well – This “Rule” is…
Strongs #4291 proistemi pro-is’-tay-mee from 4253 and 2476
The KJV – rule 5, maintain 2, be over 1; 8
Thayer’s – Has “Rule” – proistemi as…
to set or place before – to set over – to be over
to be a protector or guardian – to give aid – to care for,
So “Manage Well” here also speaks of – protecting – guarding – careing for.
Seems, If this wanna-be pastor/elder/overseer is NOT protecting – guarding – careing for his family – WELL. “how shall he take care of the church of God?”
This is info from a couple of ministries helping “Hurting Pastors”
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
80% of spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
…. (NOT “Careing for his family – Well?”)
80% say pastoral ministry has *negatively* affected their families.
(NOT “Protecting, guarding, – Well?”)
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage. (NOT “Managing Well?”)
70% of pastors constanly fight depression.. (NOT “Managing Well?”)
With 80% of pastor spouses NOT happy with this profession?
And 80% saying pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families?
And 77% saying they do NOT have a good marriage?
That shows me, as I search for – “Qualified” – “Pastor/Leader/Reverends.”
I already know that 75% of who are in that position – Do NOT Qualify. 😦
Because – They do NOT “Rule Well” or “Manage Well” their own house.
1 – Must Be Blameless. 2 – Holy. 3 – Just. 4 – Manage Well their own house.
That’s 4 tuff qualifications – And there kids must qualify…
Seems to me – this pool of potential “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” –
Who Qualify. – Is becoming quite small. 😉
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Jeff Brown – Brian
Here’s a sobering statistic…
“Almost forty percent polled said
they have had an extra-marital affair since beginning their ministry.”
Wow – 40%… extra-marital affairs….
Gives me lots of confidence in todays – pastor/elder/overseers. 😦
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“The saddest fact that remains is that oftentimes people who are abused become abusers themselves; that’s what I saw on Twitter, and I reacted instinctively instead of thoughtfully and compassionately (I am fiercely protective of my friends, to a fault when I don’t pause first). I apologize to you for that, Brian, and for baiting you into reacting to some of my other tweets.”
I can totally relate, Eric! There are times you know that people commenting are barely out of the pit and it is a huge deal for them to speak at all then these authoritarian types can come in and put them right back in because they just do not have their land legs yet to interact with them. My comments are more for them than they are for those who still cling to following gurus.
I know a couple who joined a YRR church here (funded by the SBC) who were love bombed to the point they were somewhat beholden to them. So they went for several years without saying a word about some things that bothered them. The entire environment was one of “we all submit to one another” from stage. Until the day they saw something that really bothered them and went to speak to the “elders” and were told they were to submit to them and did not have enough facts to know what they were talking about. They were dismissed with smiles. But dismissed. The message was clear: Do as we say, not as we do.
Every week I am being told similar stories from these churches. The amount of authoritarianism is reaching epic levels. And much of it is coming from guys who are 25-35 years old. Most of them lacking any experience in the trenches with accountability to season them in any real life wisdom. Fresh from seminary where they were taught all this stuff and promises of decent salaries for all the staff pastors they clearly don’t need— some from Driscoll when he cleaned house. It is all a recipe for disaster and we are watching the disaster close.
Since I live at ground zero, I tend to be a bit more strident because I am well aware of how this plays out and they view “love” as a weakness to be taken advantage of and ridden over with a monster truck. This attitude of redefining love actually appeals to a lot of young men. Lots of bodies in their wake. Let me tell you!
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Jeff Brown – Brian
Here’s a another sobering statistic…
“50% of pastors feel so discouraged that
they would **leave the ministry** if they could,
but have no other way of making a living.”
Wow – 50%. of Pastors – Do NOT want to be in the ministry.
Gives me lots of confidence in todays – pastor/elder/overseers. 😦
Am I supposed to submit to a Pastor/Leader who doesn’t want to be there?
NOT anymore – Thank You Jesus. 😉
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When I was being ordained as a deacon, I struggled with whether or not I was really qualified. My then pastor shared a great word of encouragement with me. He said it’s not one’s perfection, but rather the direction they are going that matters. I thought that was a good way to put it.
For example, according to scriptural qualifications, an elder must manage his household well. Perfectly? Well, that’s impossible. But a congregation can see whether a potential elder qualifies in this area without requiring perfection.
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“But a congregation can see whether a potential elder qualifies in this area without requiring perfection.”
Not true. Many times they have no idea because so much is hidden from them. At SGM they were told that discussing their child’s molestation was “gossip” and sinful. They were told that by elders. So if they obeyed them then no one else would know that “elders” said that to them, would they? We now find out years later one of the “elders” sons was a predator among other horror stories concerning the elders (or the equivalent to elder at SGM)
At a mega church it is impossible to know anything about the elders except what they want you to know. When you set up the system of authoritarianism, such men become “set apart”. They are in a different spiritual “caste” system so to speak. And it becomes harder to have the ability to discern much about them at all except what is presented publicly.
We tend to think we know people because of what they say on a stage. Or write in a book. Or because people we like endorse them. But we have to be honest and say we really do not know them well at all. They could be practicing voodoo in their basement or knitting socks for the salvation army for all we know. Many times we only know their personas. I liken this phenomena in Christendom to soap opera characters people think they know.
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If a person can’t get close enough to their elders to actually know who they are then they should find a church where they can.
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@ Brian~
Can you please explain to me what being “ordained as a deacon” means? Is that the same thing as an elder…and is elder in your neck of the woods the same things as a pastor? If so, I owe you an apology because I wrote in a comment that you were not a pastor, and could not find anywhere on your web page that said you were ordained, or a pastor, or ordained as a deacon (which may or may not mean the same thing as elder). lol Call me confused.
I have never heard of being ordained as a deacon. What does that mean?
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Brian
Thanks for joining in.
Your pastor said…
“He said it’s not one’s perfection,
but rather the direction they are going that matters.”
That sounds nice and I hear that a lot now – since I started to
challenge pastor/elder/overseers – And if they Qualify…
Paul never said – “perfection” –
Paul said “Must Be Blameless.” Just, Holy.
Blameless means – Without fault, innocent, guiltless… NOT perfection…
Just means – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.
Holy means – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
Paul never said – “the direction they are going that matters”
Your pastor added that to the Bible. – I think that’s a No, No.
When someone does NOT Qualify they have to change the subject.
When it comes to – Husband of one wife –
Does “the direction they are going that matters” come into play?
When a women wants to be an elder/overseer?
Does “the direction they are going that matters” come into play?
I’ll wager you all say NOPE – NO women…
Scripture is “clear” – Husband of one wife – it’s clearly written. 😉
BUT – in your view, scripture is NOT clear for Blameless, Just, Holy.
Does “the direction they are going that matters” always come into play?
What if a potential elder/overseer has four wives??? NOW???
BUT – He used to have six wives – BUT he is heading for one wife…
Would that be acceptable where you fellowship.
Does “the direction they are going that matters” come into play?
What if a potential elder/overseer is a women?
But – She is in the process of becoming a man?
She is in the process of have a sex change which takes awhile.
Does “the direction they are going that matters” come into play?
I think you prove my point with your reply…
IMO – Most, who desire to be a pastor/elder/overseer “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Position” of Power – Profit – Prestige.
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Jeff Brown – Brian
Here’s a another sobering statistic…
Clergy are in the top ten proffessions for those with NPD…
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal70.html
The narcissist naturally gravitates towards those professions which guarantee the abundant and uninterrupted provision of Narcissistic Supply. He seeks to interact with people from a position of authority, advantage, or superiority. He thus elicits their automatic admiration, adulation, and affirmation – or, failing that, their fear and obedience.
Several vocations meet these requirements: teaching, the clergy, show business, corporate management, the medical professions, the military, law enforcement agencies, politics, and sports. It is safe to predict that narcissists would be over-represented in these occupations.
Gives me lots of confidence in todays – pastor/elder/overseers. 😦
Seems to me – this pool of “Church Leaders” I’m to submit to…
Who Qualify. – Is becoming quite small. 😉
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@ Brian~
“If a person can’t get close enough to their elders to actually know who they are then they should find a church where they can.”
I agree, but the very organization that you were a huge support of…SGM…in a sense does not allow you to get close to your elders. You get close to your assigned care group leader, who then reports to the assigned elder over said care group (who you may or may not ever speak with if there is no problem with you). Mahaney was known, by those attending his ex-church CLC, for that fact that he was inaccessible to the common pew occupier.
What was/is it about SGM you like(d) so much?
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A. Amos Love,
You had said:
“Almost forty percent polled said
they have had an extra-marital affair since beginning their ministry.”
My response:
Are they bragging?
Who would admit such a thing, even if they did have an extra-marital affair, unless, of course, they were caught in the act?
Just curious.
Ed
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A. Amos Love
You had said:
“50% of pastors feel so discouraged that
they would **leave the ministry** if they could,
but have no other way of making a living.”
My response:
Have they ever heard of “unemployment checks and food stamps?”
Or is that a separation of church/state thing? hehehehe!!
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Ed
You ask…
“Are they bragging?”
Hadn’t thought of that… (you scoundrel)
BuT, Pastors are in the top ten professions for NPR
Narcissistic Pastoral Disorder
They probable couldn’t help themselves… 😉
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“If a person can’t get close enough to their elders to actually know who they are then they should find a church where they can”
Which means they should avoid:
9Marks
SBC (the YRR/NC churches)
SGM
Mega churches.
Reformed or other denoms that practice the set apart caste system for leaders with a different definition for the Holy Priesthood of believer to “set them apart”.
People should NEVER attend a church that will not share a detailed budget with them off the bat. And they should NEVER sign any sort of covenant/what we believe statement no matter how nice it sounds. Sign nothing. Let your yes be yes and your no, no. Jesus does not require it to be in Body fellowship.
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Ed
Here’s more info about NPD
“People with these disorders have intense, unstable emotions and a distorted self-image. Narcissistic personality disorder is further characterized by an abnormal love of self, an exaggerated sense of superiority and importance, and a preoccupation with success and power.
They probable were bragging…
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“I have never heard of being ordained as a deacon. What does that mean?”
Many SBC churches do this. It is just a laying on of the hands sort of ceremony where they Body recognizes them as deacons to carry out the work of the church for a specified amount of time. Back in the day, the entire church came and laid hands on them in prayer.
They used to ordain women for the work of the church. I can remember years and years ago, an inner city SBC church where my mom was doing missions ordained some women MINISTERS (graduates from SBTS when it was barely still allowed) because few of the other SBC churches in the city would do it anymore and they did not want to go to the CBF (the splinter SBC group from the conservative resurgence who allowed women ministers). I was young but remember it being very moving because they knew there were few places they could minister in the SBC. My guess is they have all left by now. The Kings daughters turned away from serving the Body…the very one they grew up in where it was allowed..
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