Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Sovereign Grace Ministries, Sovereign Grace Ministries Lawsuit, Spiritual Abuse

Kevin DeYoung Speaking with Mahaney in South Africa

Julie Anne

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Ok, as long as these guys want to toot their horn about speaking with Mahaney, I will be tooting my horn about their silence.  Just sayin’

Here is where DeYoung will be speaking along with others.  Yup, they’re all here:

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There is NOTHING wrong with these BFFs saying something like:  “Mahaney, there’s a lot of disruption going on in the Christian community because of the lawsuit, the sex abuse cases, yada, yada – and until this is resolved, you need to take a chill pill.  We’ve got you covered, buddy.”  But they just don’t do it.  They wont’ tell him “NO!”

By the way, here’s a big shout-out to Matt Redmond who is not remaining silent and is encouraging his reformed friends to start talking.  Thank you, Matt!!

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Edited to add:  I thought I better give more background on Kevin DeYoung.  He is a member of the The Gospel Coalition (TGC) and blogs at TGC site.  Here’s a little blurb from his bio at The Gospel Coalition site:

I am the Senior Pastor at University Reformed Church(RCA) in East Lansing, Michigan, near Michigan State University.  I’ve been the pastor there since 2004.  I was born in Chicagoland, but grew up mostly in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area.  I root for da Bears, da Bulls, da Blackhawks, the White Sox, and the Spartans.

But take a look at this.  Do you notice anything peculiar here?

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183 thoughts on “Kevin DeYoung Speaking with Mahaney in South Africa”

  1. Guys like DeYoung start from a position of “us vs. the world.” Any attacks on the Christian community (bloggers, lawsuit…) is interpreted as persecution. In his mind, Mahaney is just going through the run-of-the-mill persecution for “standing up for Christ,” or whatever. In their minds, Mahaney stepping back and chilling would be tatamount to “negotiating with unbelievers.” He needs a huge wake-up-call. Outsiders like us will be ignored. Reformed insiders have a better chance of getting through.

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  2. It’s ridiculous. So, I’m trying to count how many pastors I know who do stand up against it. Let’s see: Jeff Crippen, Ken Garrett, and Wade Burleson. Who else is there?

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  3. Your tweet is awesome! And I think you make just the right comment and links to just the right posts.

    I know from being in SGM for a long time that there can definitely be a defensive, circle-the-wagons mentality to any ideas from outside the safe confines of that tight circle of beliefs. So there’s that motivation to defend their own. And I’m sure the power trip of authority factors in. But the longer it goes on, and seeing conferences like this, the more I wonder how much money is a factor. I’m sure at the end of the day the money and power go together anyway.

    Yes, Kentucky, Illinois! Close enough from South Africa, I’m sure…

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  5. Is the peculiar thing we’re looking for the fact that he has a separate URL link for speaking requests and that comes before the link to his church e-mail address? I hope that’s not what you’re suggesting is peculiar, Julie Anne. Don’t you understand that he is required to speak at every major YRR conference? I mean, it’s the law, for cryin’ out loud.

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  6. You win, Sergius! 🙂 I mean, doesn’t every pastor need a private link for speaking engagements because they don’t have enough shepherding to do at their own church? I mean a ‘SEPARATE” link as if the normal e-mail address won’t suffice? GMAB = give me a break.

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  7. Oh, wake up and smell the coffee, Julie Anne. That’s exactly what Tullian Tchividjian does. Let’s just hope Kevin DeYoung doesn’t start unbuttoning his shirt half-way down like Tom Jones.

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  10. Where is it? Kevin’s is listed on the church staff page and Tullian’s is not. I couldn’t find it on his bio, either. I do see he has his own website. Wasn’t he a speaker before he took the pastorate at Coral Ridge?

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  12. oh it’s so hard and interesting to be seeing these “big” men continuing like nothing is wrong. I have close friends who rave about Kevin DeYoung, and Tullian, and half of those other men. Although, they are becoming more aware of Mahaney’s fault, and are not speaking so highly of him now. The strangest thing is that the lawsuit and all of this stuff is kind of “blown over” at CLC. my mother in law barely knew what it was when I mentioned it to her, and even though she’s not really one to learn about all of that stuff, I really wonder if the pastors are trying to brush it off and let it die among the congregation by not talking about it.

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  13. caleigh – It’s very unfortunate that they think by remaining silence, the problem will go away. They need to learn that by exposing everything – putting everything on the table – is the point at which healing can begin. I’m sad to hear that things are still quiet at CLC even though they have detached from SGM. The culture is so strong. I’m afraid that they won’t be able to get away from that underlying culture until they have a clean sweep of leadership – people from outside SGM.

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  15. Thanks for posting about this Julie Ann. I just become aware of this issue and began posting several links on my FB page. Found your site from somewhere, can’t remember exactly. I come from some reformed evangelical type churches and certainly feel the reluctance from my peer groups to say anything negative about this, although they were certainly condemning of the Roman Catholics. Let me ask you (and your readers), what do you think are the key factors leading to coverups like this?

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  16. Seth – – Hang tight. I think your question deserves a whole post. I believe it is because there is such a focus of Authority and Submission and an almost obsession with sin, with little grace.

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  19. Thanks Julie Anne and BD,

    So the implication from that link seems to be its due primarily to this covering doctrine? I can see how that would contribute a lot. I haven’t been in an SGM church, and I had never heard of church membership (among evangelical churches) until a couple years after I was married. Then we tried to meet with a local house church group after we moved to a new area. They held to a strict membership policy, practiced closed communion, and wanted us to sign on. We met with them for 5 months; I felt like they treated us like fellow believers during the actual meeting. But for communion, they switched and excluded us. They urged us to sign the membership papers and complete the process. This entailed signing a semi-legal document promising never to sue anyone in the group, reading a book written by one of the leaders, making a profession of faith to the elders for their consideration, and promising to follow the elders and try to come to their understanding of scripture. I couldn’t agree with a single point of this process, much less the idea of membership itself. Although I personally liked a lot of the guys in the group, we both felt uneasy about the leadership structure and their absolute dedication to something the NT never talked about. So we left. That was years ago. My experience makes me think about this issue a good amount, even though I don’t know anyone in an abusive church.

    But I think several things reformed evangelicals believe make them extra prone to this abuse. One is that almost extreme promotion of an authority hierarchy that BD’s link spoke of. Another is the idea of church membership itself. I’ve been super blessed to have been in a reformed bible evangelical church with no membership or abusive authority. I didn’t realize how rare this was until I left. A third factor I believe is suspicion of the secular world’s involvement in things of the church. And the last factor is the hero like worship of men, rather than of God.

    When I look at these factors together, it almost seems inevitable that future abuses will get covered up. But this is from a semi-outside perspective. I’d love to hear your thoughts Julie Anne and anyone else?

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  20. These men are self-serving, arrogant, privileged, egocentric blind leaders.

    And that is me thinking the best of them.

    Their heads are so far up their collective anal cavity that they don’t realize that they have sacrificed small children at the alter of their collective reputation. Someday, they will pull their head out of their backsides and be horrified to discover how wretched they have become.

    And just who do they think they’re fooling as they kiss one another’s backsides?

    The Church, I hope not!

    The world?

    Hell no, look at the comments in the Huffington Post and Salon articles among others, the world knows what you are (you yellow big dogs) and they are disgusted.

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  22. Question for you Seth and anyone else that wants to chime in. How do you carry out the principles in texts like Matthew 18:17 or 1 Corinthians 5? Who do you choose to exercise this with? How do you carry out the practical aspects of the texts?

    Here is another. How do you make sense of the instructions in Revelation 2 and 3 if there is no membership of the churches in these locals to be held accountable?

    Alright, one more. Do you also avoid membership of shopping clubs, athletic teams, etc.? If not, then why would that level of commitment be acceptable in that instance and not in God’s churches?

    As for Mahaney, though I am not reformed and have probably heard only 2 messages by him, I think we may want to give someone an opportunity to exercise the principles of Galatians 6 for him. Perhaps that is what these guys are doing. I do not remember any Scriptural reference to Judah’s servant or Joab making public announcements or publicly denouncing Judah or David for their sins. I realize Mahaney’s acts of protecting predators or failing to protect victims, if they are true, are criminal and sinful but shouldn’t we be seeking his restoration instead of his annihilation? I’m just saying………..

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  23. Just a minute, Wesley. Please show me where someone is trying to annihilate Mahaney. I think I was pretty clear in the above post that a reasonable response is to tell him he needs to stop speaking until this situation is resolved. This happens in the secular world all the time – someone will go on administrative leave or change their job duties while investigations are taking place. Spiritual lives are at stake here. Try talking to folks who have suffered spiritual abuse and see what it does with their faith, if they have any left.

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  25. In my former church they now have a membership covenant with so many rules to follow including “I will protect the unity of the church by following the leaders”. When I became a member, one submitted one’s name and it was read on membership Sunday with other members standing to approve and welcome them. That was it. But with this membership covenant, I always think it takes less to become a Christian than a member of that church!

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  27. Julie Anne I really do not want to come across as a fan of those who do not protect children from sexual predators, but I would like to make a few observations.

    Spiritual abuse is used like bullying by many to describe any conduct by a person in a position of leadership that they do not agree with. Hurting someone’s feelings is not abuse it is part of being human. Sexually assaulting a child is abuse. Seducing a consenting adult is sin but not abuse. It appears that people to readily absolve themselves of their responsibility to say no.

    Someone’s sinful actions should not affect a person’s faith at all if their faith is rooted in the perfection of God and an understanding of their sinfulness and the sinfulness of humanity.

    I do not see a biblical directive for Christians to await secular resolution of any matter before they continue in their ministry/life. I don’t think David was ever prosecuted for his crimes/sins yet continued in his ministry/life.

    I don’t think Mahaney is accused of sexually assaulting children, but of not taking proper action when allocations of abuse were brought to his attention. If they same thing being advocated here were carried out with the Roman Catholic Church the pope would not have resigned but the whole Vatican would be vacant with a for sale sign in front of it. Yet, I have not heard any cry for the Catholic hierarchy to be sent on administrative leave after it has been revealed that this has been a systemic problem for decades.

    How do we know that Mahaney has not repented and made restitution to the people involved? I do not remember Zacchaeus offering to make restitution to every Jew that had been defrauded by a publican or making a public service announcement apologizing to all Jews for the dishonest dealings of publicans.

    We are adamantly against graceless Christianity when it comes to dealings with the unconverted or public announcements of the sins of unconverted people but have no problem demanding this for those who are believers for particular sins. We deny the need for any leadership in the churches and then blame the leadership of the churches when things go wrong……..huh?

    Again, I am not defending Mahaney because I firmly believe that if there is adequate reason to believe someone is sexually abusing a child they should be IMMEDIATELY reported to law enforcement, but should we not demonstrate the same grace for those who make poor leadership choices just as we should for those who make poor sexual orientation choices?

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  29. @ Wesley Roy,

    I am really surprised at your comment. No, we should not demonstrate the same grace for those who make poor leadership choices. They are held to a higher biblical standard. Obeying the laws of the land is a high priority.

    The thief on the cross died right along with Jesus. His carnal justice was carried out, by the law (NO MERCY). But he still got to go to the Promised land. There is a difference between carnal law and spiritual law. A Christian must obey both, and the leaders have a responsibility to ensure that both are adhered to.

    Ezekiel 33:8
    When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    Leviticus 5:1
    And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.

    1Corinthians 5:1-2 (NO GRACE HERE)
    1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
    (Pay close attention to the next verse)
    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    That would include the LEADERS, because they did nothing.

    Why are the leaders not in mourning? They just go about day to day business, acting like it isn’t any of their business. It is their responsibility. They should be mourning. Why are they not mourning?

    By the way, in regards to the Roman Catholic Church, haven’t you been reading the blogs? People want JUSTICE, and they aren’t getting justice. Everyone wants justice, and if a leader knows something, and does nothing, he is guilty, by God’s standards, and the laws standards.

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  30. Sexual orientation choices? I know this is not your main point, that’s incredibly poor wording. Are you referring to pedophiles? That’s not orientation. If you’re referring to gay people, they don’t choose their orientation. Can you rephrase?

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  31. @Seth,
    You said:
    ” If you’re referring to gay people, they don’t choose their orientation.”

    That is debatable.

    The book of Romans shows that it is a choice, so God gave them up to reprobate.

    However, whether it is a choice, or not, the command from God is: “Don’t do it…don’t go there…exit only.”

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  32. Wesley, there is an answer to your first post but I’m not able to give a longer response right now. Hopefully later

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  33. I disagree, the bible shows its wrong to engage in gay sexual activity, it never mentions orientation. Pursuing that line of thought puts unrighteousness condemnation upon gay celibate Christians.

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  34. Didn’t Jesus say that if you look upon a woman with lust that you are guilty of adultery? Sin originates in the mind, and you can sin without acting it out. That is the point of Jesus saying that.

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  35. You are missing the point. I’m assuming you are straight and a guy? If so you are attracted to women, but surely you will recognize that there is a difference between attraction and lust? Orientation deals with what gender one is attracted to. It says nothing about moving into the realm of lust, or even father to the realm of sexual activity. I respectfully suggest that you consider that this idea is not contrary with the word of God, and also accords with the experiences of millions people.

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  36. Are you suggesting that there are people on this planet who does not lust? Everyone is guilty of lust, and that was the point that Jesus was making, so that no one could say, “Well, I’ve never committed adultery”. Jesus was basically saying to them, “Yes, you have.” Paul said that he had not known lust until he knew the commandment that said “Thou Shalt Not Covet”. Everyone is a sinner. Just because they don’t act it out, it does not negate out the sin. If a thief has a preference to only steal cars, but he hasn’t stolen a car yet, he is still a thief.

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  37. Seth: I’ve been out and looks like I missed one of your earlier comments:

    When I look at these factors together, it almost seems inevitable that future abuses will get covered up. But this is from a semi-outside perspective. I’d love to hear your thoughts Julie Anne and anyone else?

    Yes, the culture of SGM (and churches with characteristics that are mentioned in BD’s link) creates a climate for abuse. It will not be going away any time soon. That’s why when I point out a story about SGM, I try to broaden it to say that it is not just a SGM problem. My former church resembled the culture of SGM and that’s why I connected so easily with the SGMSurvivor stories. I couldn’t believe they were telling “my” story.

    Ok, I have some comments to catch up on.

    .

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  38. Probably contrary to public opinion, gay people do choose their orientation. Saying that they were simply ‘born gay’ is not medically proven. It is a promoted belief which hopes to gain social acceptance of an unhealthy lifestyle.

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  39. Wesley – I want to be clear – I am well aware that there are truly disgruntled church members who behave like bullies. They are grumblers/complainers, do not receive criticism well, create division and disruption within a church. I feel very bad about those who treat pastors like that. I have friends who are pastors or home church leaders and have heard stories. It produces much heartache for not only the pastors, but for the Body.

    Someone’s sinful actions should not affect a person’s faith at all if their faith is rooted in the perfection of God and an understanding of their sinfulness and the sinfulness of humanity.

    It shouldn’t, but if you understand the process by which true spiritual abusers manipulate and control, they can mess with someone’s head and create all sorts of chaos with their spiritual foundation. False teachers lead people astray. We can’t minimize what the Bible says about false teachers. It’s nice and easy to say someone shouldn’t be swayed, but say that to the bright and intelligent people who “somehow” managed to drink the Kool-Aid in so many churches. Some have a crisis of faith and never recover. That is why this issue is so important to me. When you say sinful actions should not affect a person’s faith, you then put blame on the spiritual abuser’s victim. That’s not right.

    I do not see a biblical directive for Christians to await secular resolution of any matter before they continue in their ministry/life. I don’t think David was ever prosecuted for his crimes/sins yet continued in his ministry/life.

    Where is that coming from? I have said that I think that prominent Christian leaders who speak with CJ should encourage him to stop speaking until the situation is resolved.

    How do we know that Mahaney has not repented and made restitution to the people involved?

    I think it would be public, don’t you? Many churches have left SGM since this fiasco – that is one of the key things they (SGM pastors who recently left) are saying publicly – that CJ hasn’t accepted responsibility.

    Again, I am not defending Mahaney because I firmly believe that if there is adequate reason to believe someone is sexually abusing a child they should be IMMEDIATELY reported to law enforcement, but should we not demonstrate the same grace for those who make poor leadership choices just as we should for those who make poor sexual orientation choices?

    CJ is unfit for ministry based on so many witness accounts. He has publicly admitted to bribery. There is so much more. There are so many witnesses – so many more than required biblically. Are you saying we shouldn’t hold pastors to biblical standards? (1 Tim?) Pastors are held to higher standards than an ordinary member choosing to sin, are they not?

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  40. See what I get for not reading the whole thread first? Ed, answered it much better: I am really surprised at your comment. No, we should not demonstrate the same grace for those who make poor leadership choices. They are held to a higher biblical standard. Obeying the laws of the land is a high priority.

    Thank you, Ed.

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  42. Well, JA, thanks for chiming in anyway. After all, it’s your blog…lol. 🙂

    We both said about the same, so great Bible Christian minds think alike. There are biblical standards that discuss these things, and how people are missing it really boggles my mind.

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  43. @just a thought, you’re correct that science hasn’t proven ppl are born gay, not that it would make much difference though. The real problem I have is with you saying ppl choose their sexual orientation. Really? When did you chose to be straight? Do you know any gay ppl? How many of them chose it? It’s more of a curse, I don’t know of anyone who chose that. This is a rabbit trail from the main post, but I feel like you and chapman haven’t thought this all the way through yet.

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  44. Seth wrote: “I couldn’t agree with a single point of this process, much less the idea of membership itself.” and, “I’d love to hear your thoughts Julie Anne and anyone else?”

    I’m glad to hear it, Seth. If you’re interested, I have a blog series titled “Re-Thinking Church Membership” and it is up to 35 parts now. Here’s the link:

    http://fromthepew.blogspot.com/search/label/Re-Thinking%20Church%20Membership

    Most of us have simply been taught to go along with the status quo on “membership” and to accept the thinking behind the issue as given. What I try to do is look at membership from what the NT says. Hope it helps.

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  45. Come on Seth, the word straight implies normal. Someone has been teaching you ungodly philosophy, and you are buying off on it, implying that evil thoughts is ok, just so you don’t act them out. To say that the bible is silent about evil thoughts is not an accurate way to present the Bible. It is evil to God whether you act it out, or not. He is the one that set the rules, and if you really believe that God made gay people, well, your God is not my God. Is love natural? Well, so is being straight. People are taught to deviate from that which is Holy and Pure.

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  47. Not missing any standards my friends. I am just concerned when adults claim they are being abused because they are allowing themselves to be manipulated by anyone, regardless of their position. I am concerned when people absolve themselves of the responsibility to be biblically literate by claiming they are victims of spiritual abuse.

    JA you stated that I seem to be blaming victims for being abused. I would never think of blaming a child for being sexually abused. However, I do hold an adult who is manipulated by another adult contrary to Scripture when the Bible is readily available responsible for what is done.

    When you stated CJ’s repentance should be public you failed to explain how Zacchaeus could hurt so many people, destroy so many lives and be able to repent and make restitution without a public service announcement.

    Seth I believe that homosexuality is a choice on the same level as any other sin. All people have a natural propensity to engage in certain sins. That does not mean their sin is normal. Now to say that God delivers us from all sins but homosexuality, including the attraction, limits the limitless sanctifying power of the Gospel.

    Ed I am sure you have read Second Corinthians and realize that the taking away was talking about church discipline until repentance was evidenced. Now this is only possible if church membership is biblical…..(smile).

    Some also were concerned that I was not applying the principles of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 in this instance and holding CJ to a higher standard of conduct than other Christians are held to. I am guilty as charged. I cannot see anything in either of these passages that should not characterize the lives of all disciples of Christ. Since we do not want a line between clergy and laity when it comes to authority it would be quite hypocritical for us to draw this line when it comes to godly lifestyles. I do recognize that these passages are indicating that pastors must have these characteristics evident in their lives.

    Since I do not believe there are two classes of Christians, clergy and laity, but only disciples with different gifts and ministries I cannot comprehend someone claiming abuse because another person attempted to intimidate or manipulate them. If that were the case they would have to quit their secular jobs because this happens ALL THE TIME in most secular fields.

    Guys we, as adults, have to hold ourselves accountable for what we allow other people to do to us. We have Bibles so we have no excuse for engaging in unbiblical conduct because someone said so. That is not abuse and we are not victims at that point. We may be embarrassed and ashamed of our lack of diligence, biblical knowledge, or plain courage but we have not been victimized.

    I appreciate your gracious comments, considering CJ gets none………LOL.

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  48. Hi Julie Anne-
    Wow, I had no idea that Kevin was from my neck of the woods. I was barely hanging on to my faith when my husband & I left our church, we were disheartened. We attended URC for several months, but it seemed to be more of the same old same old, and we left. Thank-You Jesus! I would have gone from the frying pan into the fire. We nick-named it : University DEFORMED Church. Actually, we had some help with that, we were driving by the church one day and my daughters 10 yr. old friend said, ” didn’t you guys use to go to University Deformed? Out of the mouths of babes.
    Loved your tweet!

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  49. @Wesley Roy

    You said:
    “I cannot comprehend someone claiming abuse because another person attempted to intimidate or manipulate them”.

    Really? How is one manipulated? What is the definition of manipulation?

    Manipulation implies that there is a manipulator and a victim. Of course, who wants to be manipulated? No one. But the one being manipulated has no clue of the manipulation until it is too late.

    The manipulator is guilty, not the manipulated.

    What Bible are you reading?

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  50. Wesley said: Not missing any standards my friends. I am just concerned when adults claim they are being abused because they are allowing themselves to be manipulated by anyone, regardless of their position. I am concerned when people absolve themselves of the responsibility to be biblically literate by claiming they are victims of spiritual abuse.

    So, then I take it you don’t think Jim Jones or David Koresh had victims? Those who lost their lives didn’t act responsibly in allowing someone to manipulate them, right?

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  51. Wesley, I’ve been in a church with no membership that exercised discipline on multiple ppl. Membership is not required for the group to take a stand against an evidently false profession of faith.

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  52. Gail: That comment from your 10-yr old is so funny = University DEFORMED Church. I love it when kids nail it without realizing it. I hope you wrote that down somewhere for safe-keeping 🙂

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  53. Wesley I am going to attempt to respond to your comment with grace and understanding…..Thank you

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  55. Wesley as you can see from my first response your comment left me speechless. There is no wonder abuse and corruption is on the rise in the church when people like yourself take such a stand. Tell me! you think it would be alright if someone came to Mahaney today and told him that someone in his congregation was molesting a child and he decided to take no action. If you think that’s ok then you are as guilty as he is, and if you say of course not, then why was it ok if it happened 20 years ago. Because 20 years has passed somehow makes the offense less serious. Who are we to tell anyone that was violated to just move on.
    I can tell from your comment that you have never felt such deep emotional pain. You have to walk in their shoes to question there motives. Mahaney needs to thank God that those that are stepping forward to expose the truth are humble and Godly people. I am not so sure I could be so civil had it been one of my children. He might have more than a civil law suit to worry about. And you are correct, he needs to be grateful that he is under Grace, because if this would have happened under the old covenant he would have had hot sulfur poured on his bald head.

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  56. What was their basis for exercising this authority in the lives of the people you mentioned? What made the individuals accountable to this particular group of people?

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  57. Wesley said: “Now this is only possible if church membership is biblical…..(smile). ”

    Not sure what you meant by your comment. But, membership IS biblical, and the bible spells out how membership works. The mistake is when people assume – or are taught that – there is no membership until man creates an extra-biblical one.

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  58. Raymond my wife was molested as a child so I am well aware of the ramifications of such actions. I live with the effects of his actions upon my wife every day. I also know that my wife has totally forgiven him and no one would be able to tell that she was molested by him. Now I grant you that this forgiveness and restoration did not require him to make a public confession nor did it even require him to face criminal charges but it did require her to experience the grace and forgiveness of God through Christ.

    My wife and I also have 17 children of our own. We are very protective of them in every situation. We never leave them in nurseries in churches we visit and only allow the ones that can talk to be accompanied by an older sibling to children ministries. So I am well aware of the dangers and consequences of molestation. To avoid this in our church we do not even have a nursery. We have a room furnished for a nursery for parents to use when they feel the need but there is no nursery staff.

    Now if someone came to me and informed me that someone in the church I am a member of was molesting a child I would begin with confronting the person who the accusation is brought against. If they adamantly denied then I would ask the person who KNOWS they molested the child to come with me and confront the person with the information. If the person was not willing to turn themselves in I would encourage the person who KNOWS about the molestation to go to law enforcement.

    Thanks for your gracious and civil comments.

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  61. @chapmaned24

    I am reading the Bible that says greater is he that is me than he that is in the world. I am reading the Bible that says the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth regardless of what any preacher says.

    Now what Bible are you reading my friend?

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  62. Wesley I cannot tell from your comments whether you are a Pastor or not but what I am hearing from you is that you would ask the molester to turn himself in. Do you really think that would happen….Please give me a break….then if he won’t you want the person who reports the abuse to call the authorities. As the Pastor you have a responsibility to make sure it stops and reported.

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  64. Wesley, you’re the one who was just talking about there not being a clergy layty divide. And i agree. No clergy made decisions on any members. It was a group decision led by elders

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  65. Wesley Roy,

    Pick and choose? The Bible states a lot more than just that. What about the Rest of the Story? One verse doesn’t cut it. I provided you with all sorts of scripture, and I can provide more. Justice is required for crimes that are against the law. Regardless of what you think of 1 Cor 5, the dude was to be kicked out, and the church was condemned by Paul for condoning it. And if I do recall, this was PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, because word got back to Paul about it. He wrote it for all to read, including you and me. That is pretty public if you ask me. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. The lump is supposed to be pure. Purge out that leaven from among you. Don’t excuse it. Don’t put blame on the victim for being manipulated.

    Manipulation is the sin, not being manipulated. If I leave my door unlocked, and a thief comes in and steals my stuff, the thief is prosecuted when caught, not me for leaving my door unlocked.

    Where do you get your biblical knowledge from? If you have a bible, read the rest of the story about justice.

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  66. I agree with you Seth, about joining a church, or becoming a church member. I don’t remember Peter telling everyone, Please Sign Here, after he baptized them. Once you are a Christian, you are FREE

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  67. Greetings Wesley Roy, Welcome. Glad that you feel free to comment here. I trust that you will have some time to read and listen to people’s accounts about this issue in the church today from their experiences. This could be very insightful for you. Spiritual abuse is not always an easy concept to understand. Sometimes there is a need to dig deeper and grapple with it longer in order to understand the depth of this often hidden, but very real dysfunction, in the Body of Christ.

    You might be interested in my doctoral research on the topic of spiritual abuse and how people coped and eventually recovered from it. You are welcome to pop over to my website: http://www.ChurchExiters.com and poke around. See what you think.

    I am glad that you are here and that you are asking questions and are engaging with others here. I trust that this exercise will enlarge your heart and your thinking regarding this important church ministry issue. All the best!

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  68. Absolutely free! 🙂 and a member of the universal body of Christ, enrolled and sponsored by Jesus himself.

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  69. Wesley said: If the person was not willing to turn themselves in I would encourage the person who KNOWS about the molestation to go to law enforcement.

    What if that person who knows about the molestation does not go to law enforcement? BTW, are you a pastor?

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  70. Wesley, does your wife know for sure that her abuser did not go on to abuse other people/kids?

    Sexual abuse is statistically not just a one time or one person thing. It’s motivating factors make it an obsession and move people past all sorts of barriers that would normally stop others. One who has sexually abused needs serious help and cannot be declared cured, rather they can be in or out of recovery.

    Turning in someone who has sexually abused is a mercy on this side of Heaven.

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  71. Raymond how do you report someone has committed a crime that you have no personal knowledge of? You do realize that hearsay is inadmissible in court. The person that has KNOWLEDGE of he matter is the person that has to report the matter. I would be happy to accompany the person to the authorities but I am unable to report a crime that I have no personal KNOWLEDGE of.

    Yes I would expect a believer to turn themselves in just like some expect a believer to publicly repent.

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  73. Seth you said your mutual decision to follow Christ is what positioned people to submit to “church” discipline. So can you just carry this out with any person any where who has made a decision to follow Christ?

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  74. Chapmaned24 you seem to be implying that you have some superior Bible knowledge. You are coming pretty close to intimidating me with your tone and manipulating me to just go along with what you are saying……LOL. When these guys do what you are doing it is manipulation and intimidation so why is it different when you claim superior Bible knowledge.

    Now which sins exactly are we supposed to make public knowledge and kick people who don’t repent out of the church that they are not a member of again?

    Too funny…

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  75. Grateful, I don’t know that there is any way to be sure that anyone ever does not do anything again. We do have frequent contact with the person and there appears to be no problem. She does not see any need to attempt to make a person pay for a 30+ year old crime. It is kind of like the fact that David was never stoned for the murder or adultery that he committed. Hmmmmmm…….that is pretty interesting. She has forgiven and simply trusts God to take care of the rest.

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  77. Wesley Roy said:
    “Now which sins exactly are we supposed to make public knowledge and kick people who don’t repent out of the church that they are not a member of again?”

    Isn’t that obvious? Paul wrote his Corinthian epistles only to the leaders, right? Ha! He wrote it to all of the congregation, and guess who got a copy of it? We did. That is public.

    This sort of thing is not something to be hush hush about and swept under the rug, ordering people to be quiet about. JUSTICE.

    Can you count how many times the word justice is in the Bible? Besides, I don’t find church discipline in the Bible. I see the order to kick them out. Church discipline is not something that I find at all.

    Go stand in the corner until you repent. Is that what you call church discipline? Ha! Nope, I see “KICK THEM OUT”.

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  78. Testing, testing, testing: has anyone else seen the questions asking if Wesley is a pastor? Or are they only showing up on my computer? I get easily confused these days. Help me out, people.

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  80. Now Julie Anne as for you question. I was not trying to avoid answering it just takes a while to get home from work and get a break to get back on. Yes I am a pastor. I do not, however, as I mentioned in another post see a clergy class Christian in the Bible. I am simply a member of the church who happens to have a gift and ministry opportunity that is a little different from that of some others. Our church is a small newer church (less than 100) in a small southern town. We are not affiliated with SGM in any way and do not agree doctrinally with them on several fronts. As I have said, I am no real fan of CJ but I am a fan of unity, grace, and forgiveness being exercised among disciples of Christ. I also believe that sins that are crimes should be handled by civil authorities but the decisions of civil authorities does not govern how the churches are to handle these sins. The Bible is our guide for how we are to handle these matters. I also do not think we are being intellectually honest when we condemn poor leadership but do not condemn rampant covetousness which is idolatry or any other sin. I do not believe we are being intellectually honest when we demand public apologies for the sins of others and we have never issued a public apology for our many sins. I do not think we are being theologically honest when we assume that a sin that “hurts” a person is a greater sin than another sin that seems to only effect God.

    As a pastor I am angered and disappointed when pastors fail to shepherd the flock for whatever reasons. I also am angered and disappointed when these failures are exposed and believers are unwilling to show any grace to these men. Did CJ make a grave mistake by covering up for those accused of molesting children? Yes, if he did that he made a grave mistake. Perhaps he trusted someone too much. Perhaps he gave someone the benefit of the doubt that he should not have. Perhaps he was afraid of what his actions could result in. I don’t know what his motivation was for what he did or didn’t do. I do know that there are plenty of men who occupy the ministry position of pastor/elder in churches that like me are working full-time jobs away from their families for 11-12 hours a day, speaking 4 or more times a week and loving the people. I do know that these public, relentless pursuits of those who fail and the constant contemporary cry of “spiritual abuse” only makes their ministry harder. I think we do a grave disservice to the churches of Christ when we make it more difficult to share the gospel and shepherd the people of God by making it seem as if every church that is organized or has any structure is a “spiritual concentration camp”.

    I’m just saying……

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  82. Wesley, I count 4 posts made by you since Julie Anne first asked if you are a pastor. Are you or are you not?

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  84. Wesley, my apologies. You answered the question while I was drafting my previous post. Still, you ought to have disclosed your position from the beginning.

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  85. Gary W. I answered 7 minutes before your post.

    Chapmaned24 thanks for the laugh about your Bible knowledge. Are you a pastor?

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  86. Gary W. why would I have to “disclose my position” when it has no bearing on anything. Chapmaned24 is the guy with superior Bible knowledge. Seth has made it clear that church membership doesn’t exist so technically “my position” doesn’t exist.

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  87. Just for you Pastor Wesley Roy

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13

    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

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  88. It matters that you are a pastor because, in defending other pastors, you are defending your own position, ministry, role, identity, or whatever you want to call it. If your comments were made by one who did not have a self interested stake in the issue, they would have greater credibility. Your own credibility would have been greater had you identified yourself as a pastor from the beginning.

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  89. Wesley Roy-
    You say that your wife “has forgiven and simply trusts God to take care of the rest” and allude that those who have filed the lawsuit against SGM are bringing up old issues that they should have moved on from.

    First, who are you as a man, and as someone who has not personally been sexually abused to decide what an adequate time frame is for someone to forgive their abuser?

    Second, please read these stories http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/ then decide whether SGM leaders handled these situations well, and if there is any doubt about that. Would you seriously have claimed if you yourself could not confirm the abuse 100% happened from first hand knowledge, that hearing these stories you would not have reported the abuse to the police?

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  90. So is that a yes or no? Do you know of anyone who has ever been kicked out of a church for being covetous? Come on chap, I am aware of your superior orthodoxy and am benefiting from it now how about some help with that superior orthopraxy.

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  91. Wesley says:

    I was not trying to avoid answering it just takes a while to get home from work and get a break to get back on. Yes I am a pastor.

    Ladies and gentlemen. The record speaks for itself:

    Raymond indirectly asked if Wesley was pastor at 2:13 PM

    JA directly asked at 3:38 PM.

    Wesley ignores question in his comment at 5:31PM

    JA asks 2nd time at 5:32PM

    Wesley ignores 1st and 2nd question in his comments at 5:32PM and 5:36PM

    JA asks 3rd time at 5:42PM

    Wesley finally responds at 6:03PM,
    exactly 2 hours and 25 minutes after I initially asked.
    exactly 33 minutes after I asked the 2nd time
    exactly 21 minutes after I asked the 3rd time

    Keepin’ it real here on SSB. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

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  92. Wesley, you seem to think that those who are abused by pastors and other church leaders ought to be accountable for not having had sufficient knowledge, maturity, etc. to have avoided the abuse. Shouldn’t the pastor’s role be to bring people to maturity. Isn’t it the case that sheep need shepherds (pastors) because the sheep are vulnerable? How do you get off blaming the victims? That’s a rhetorical question. You don’t get off blaming the victims, ever.

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  93. Wesley, as a pastor, I do not believe you have been up front with us here. Especially with such a simple question. Not answering a question when asked repeatedly is very odd to me.

    Do you know if you as a pastor are a mandatory reporter in the state in which you live? Because if you even “heard” about sex abuse and failed to report, you could be in trouble for not reporting. In Oklahoma, church staff was arrested fairly recently for failure to report.

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  94. Your accusation is unfounded Gary. What happens to CJ will never even be a topic of discussion among people that I know and associate with. I have been clear that I am not defending CJ since I know nothing of him. I would say it is a bit impolite to accuse me of dishonesty simply because I am a pastor. I do not normally introduce my self as a pastor in my physical interactions so I see no need to introduce myself as such for cyber interactions. Your statement really makes you appear to be no different than those who you accuse of abuse by claiming some moral high ground based on what you are not, a pastor, verses their claiming moral high ground based on what they are, a pastor.

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  95. If you cannot discern my answer with a scripture quote, maybe you are not qualified to be a preacher, huh?

    I think scripture is pretty clear with the answer. It is your instruction book, Preacher man.

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  96. Julie Anne I do realize that in my state I am responsible to report if I am aware of any crime committed by a person. If that occurs by the person confiding in me then I am obligated to report it if they will not.

    You say that I was not up front with you on this site. That is not true. I did not see any indication that we had to share our ministry involvement in order to post.

    In the interest of full disclosure here it is:
    I am married to my high school sweetheart and we will celebrate 25 years this Sep.
    We have 17 children, 11 boys and 6 girls, ranging in age from 25 to 1.
    I am a metrologist in a machine shop.
    I am also a pastor of a new church.
    I am Independent Fundamental Baptist but there is much more to the story.
    I am an African-American.
    I am over 40 years of age.
    I enjoy interacting with people with differing views because I learn more.

    If there is any other information that you want just ask and I will be more than happy to volunteer it.

    By the way, I did not delay answering your question. I work about an hour from where I live and had to stop at the book store. Great sale got almost $80 in books for $14.04–shameless plug for Mardel (I have no stock or personal interset in the company).

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  97. Can anyone else see my question for chapmaned24? Is it just showing up on my computer?

    I get it Chap. Scripture says you should but you have never practiced it. Thanks for the straight forward honest answer. I appreciate you being straightforward about where you stand on the issue both in theory and practice.

    LOL………

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  98. I am not implying anything about the ones who are bringing the lawsuit RP. That is totally up to them. Thanks for the link. I am reading the stories now and will comment later.

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  99. Wesley, No disrespect and I hope God continues to bless your ministry, but I am sure glad you are not my Pastor. I also hope you are never faced with the decision to report abuse.

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  100. Thanks for the bio. I’ve been told that I am a baby machine with 7 children (26 to 7), but your wife puts me to shame 🙂 I’d love to meet her. As a mother, I’m looking at the number of years married and the number of arrows in your quiver and DUDE – that’s a pretty fruitful production thang you’ve got going on 🙂 Any multiples in that lot? Does your family homeschool? Large families and homeschooling seem to go together.

    You’re absolutely right – there are no posting rules. Looking at the timeline, it sure seemed like you were evading the question. But no biggie. I don’t “need” to know, but was curious.

    So, you’re an IFB pastor. Are you aware of the other meaning of IFB = Independent Fundamental Bible church? I never knew what IFB meant until my lawsuit.

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  101. Wesley Roy,

    You said:
    “I get it Chap. Scripture says you should but you have never practiced it. Thanks for the straight forward honest answer. I appreciate you being straightforward about where you stand on the issue both in theory and practice.”

    I am not a preacher or a pastor. I don’t claim to be one either. But I do know what the bible states for church’s to do in this situation. It isn’t a “should”, either.

    I don’t think that the Apostle Paul was making a suggestion. It was pretty straight forward. So, to me, it isn’t a matter of “should”, but a “must”. In other words, practice what Paul preaches, rather than preaching the theory. Just saying.

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