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Ok, as long as these guys want to toot their horn about speaking with Mahaney, I will be tooting my horn about their silence. Just sayin’
Here is where DeYoung will be speaking along with others. Yup, they’re all here:
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There is NOTHING wrong with these BFFs saying something like: “Mahaney, there’s a lot of disruption going on in the Christian community because of the lawsuit, the sex abuse cases, yada, yada – and until this is resolved, you need to take a chill pill. We’ve got you covered, buddy.” But they just don’t do it. They wont’ tell him “NO!”
By the way, here’s a big shout-out to Matt Redmond who is not remaining silent and is encouraging his reformed friends to start talking. Thank you, Matt!!
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Edited to add: I thought I better give more background on Kevin DeYoung. He is a member of the The Gospel Coalition (TGC) and blogs at TGC site. Here’s a little blurb from his bio at The Gospel Coalition site:
I am the Senior Pastor at University Reformed Church(RCA) in East Lansing, Michigan, near Michigan State University. I’ve been the pastor there since 2004. I was born in Chicagoland, but grew up mostly in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area. I root for da Bears, da Bulls, da Blackhawks, the White Sox, and the Spartans.
But take a look at this. Do you notice anything peculiar here?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
No problem Raymond. I don’t want to be the pastor of anyone who doesn’t want me to be their pastor.
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Thanks for the warm welcome JA. Warm being the operative word….LOL. We do homeschool. Only the first 2 boys are twins. All the other children are single births. I forgot to mention 3 grandbabies. It is hard to remember you are a grandfather when your little one is running around in diapers saying , “daddy hold me”….LOL. I was aware that there were IF Bible churches as well.
Currently reading the SGM Survivors link that was recommended. Noel’s story is horrible and again I am not defending CJ and suggesting that people with this type of information should not go directly to law enforcement. This has nothing to do with civil lawsuits but with criminal law. All that were involved in her story should be prosecuted but that does not alleviate us of the responsibility to show grace to the guilty as God has to us in our guilt.
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The problem in SGM churches (and churches similar to SGM) is that it seems the criminal aspect was not dealt with (at least in the cases in the lawsuit). There is not a lot of respect for civil authorities and they handle these “sins” (they wouldn’t call pedophilia a crime, but a sin) in-house. Their goal was to get to the point of repentance and reconciliation, but they were not equipped to handle pedophiles who typically do not recover and change their behavior (look at studies on this). Consequently, they applied a spiritual bandaid to the “sin”, assumed things were dealt with, and left children in harm’s way with pedophiles who needed much more intervention/accountability, and certainly to pay for their crime.
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I am in full agreement JA that the people involved in Noel’s case should have faced criminal charges and it was gross negligence to not do everything to make that a reality. I do believe that pedophiles along with every other sinner can be “cured” by the Gospel. The Gospel, however, does not take care of the criminal side of the equation.
To add to my answer to a question that was asked earlier about my reporting a person molesting a child. In a situation with the level of evidence that was presented I would not have hesitated to report this boy to the proper authorities and help this family to see that their daughter was safe. I would have even suggested to the family that if a rape examine was necessary that they could have the girl sedated and her parents present to get all the evidence possible to carry out the prosecution of the crime. I would have counseled both families to forgive. One because of what their little girl had gone through and the other because of what their son would be going through. I would realize that his mother would be doing everything possible to protect her son and think that the family of the little girl was being unfair and I would prepare the girls family for that reaction. But through it all I would advise them to be relentless in the pursuit for justice for their little girl and for sentence of evil to be executed swiftly in hopes of bringing the boy to repentance.
Those pastors did not exercise care for the flock of God as they should have. At the time of the incident I would not have hesitated to have the church remove them from their positions. A couple of decades later–I just don’t know. Really tough one because people change but sometimes people stay the same.
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Wesley why does the passing of time reduce the severity of the crime or the pain the victims feel. There have been Ex German soldiers that have been arrested for war crimes 60 years after they happened.
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Wesley, you say show grace to the guilty as God has to us in our guilt. I say well and good, but what exactly does that look like? If a pastor uses their position to force a sexual relationship on their weak willed, married, secretary, is the secretary to continue on as though nothing had happened? Is the secretary’s spouse to look the other way, act as though all is right, continue regularly attending the pastor’s church and cheerfully paying their tithe? Is the secretary to be blamed for enabling the pastor’s sinful weakness? Is the pastor to be exonerated on the basis of the secretary’s un-Christian, sinful, weaknesses? Is the pastor to suffer no consequence? Is it really the victim’s fault? If the secretary resigns, is the church to hire a new secretary without warning them? Generally, is the pastor to be left in a position to repeat the offense? These questions are intended primarily to provoke thought, but perhaps you can supply some answers. What would grace to the guilty pastor look like if the pastor has used their position to force a sexual relationship on a weak willed secretary?
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I would say Gary W. that that pastor needs to be removed from his position and that secretary needs to be removed from her position. I don’t know that it is a crime to seduce your secretary but I do know that it is a sin if you are a pastor or a manager in a company. I also think it is a little insulting to assume that a woman is so “weak willed” that she would commit adultery because the “pastor” asked her to. I would think a good slap and a conversation with her husband would be her first line of defense. And for attempting to seduce the secretary the “pastor” should be removed from his position. With time and repentance and restoration demonstrated he should be forgiven and restored to fellowship with a congregation. He may never be able to return to the congregation that he once pastored even as a member because of the hurt it may cause the lady and he should be willing to make that change as part of the restitution for his actions. Hope that answers your question.
Raymond the passing of time does not decrease the severity of the crime or the pain of the victims. As an African-American I am well aware that crimes and violence inflicted long ago has lasting effects even on the progeny of those who are the victims. Our civil courts do however have statutes of limitations for certain crimes. Murder is not one of them and if this is not one of them I say prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
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If I recall correctly, the secretaries husband has no choice but to continue to attend, because he is a member of that church, signed, sealed, and delivered. He cannot break his covenant. The church needs his money. It’s binding. If he shows no grace, he is in sin, and the pastor is not held to account, all because the husband showed no grace, even tho the sin of adultery just took place.
Is this the kind of church that we should belong to? I think not.
Am I wrong, Wes?
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Yeah chap, I think you might be wrong on this one, but fortunately that does not effect your superior Bible knowledge. LOL…..
I think I felt the biting wit in that one…..LOL. Just because someone does church membership wrong does not make church membership wrong. No one is ever obligated to remain a member of a church that they believe to be detrimental to their well-being or the well-being of their loved ones. No lack of grace in leaving such a place and no lack of grace in warning others about the conduct of the pastor.
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Wesley, you say that in the case of rape, you would counsel forgiveness by the families. Well, is that it? How would you minister to the pain? The outrage? The victim’s shame? Her likely sense of self blame? Will you be there to comfort, to share in the pain, and seek healing over the long haul? At what point do you counsel forgiveness, and how do you go about it? How do you even make the idea of forgiveness make sense? Do you really think that you owe the same pastoral care to the perp as to the victim and her family. Might you consider that, just maybe, that job belongs to somebody else. If you must interact with the perp at all, would it not be best to counsel the rendering of whatever restitution might be possible–both as a matter of justice and as a matter of writing on the offender’s heart, if only in some small way, the enormity of their actions? Do you have any training in ministering to those who have suffered great emotional trauma? Have you mentored under somebody who is knowledgeable and experience in such ministry? Have you read the literature? Have you ever spent significant time, and I mean over months and more, just listening to and coming into empathetic identification with somebody who simply hasn’t the ability to forget, forgive, and move on? You may have done some or all of these things, but is there more you can do to become better qualified?
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As you can tell, my comment was in jest, and I appreciate your humor in it. However, credibility and accountability really is lacking. The bible is clear to kick them out. Backsliding is one thing, but out right sinning is another. There needs to be a distinction. Godless people in the pews need to be kicked out. You will know them by their fruits.
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Gary, I don’t think you we’re reading Wes s posts carefully. He seems to be saying that the victim should both prosecute to the fullest extent of the law and also forgive. Am I correct Wes?
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Wow I took a 5 hour break and things seem to have gotten a little heated here! We’re all Christians in here right?
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Gary I understand and hear your concerns. I have dealt with people who have experienced great hurts and great guilt and pain. I have a friend who had to deal with and still deals with the guilt for the suicide of his son. I have for over 25 years dealt with the hurt and anger that still surfaces from time to time with my wife. I have read much literature on counseling people as they deal with the situations that are our lives. I also see no problem and suggest that people do get counseling from others as well including professional counselors. I think it is important that these counselors be Christians so that they understand concepts like forgiveness, grace, restoration, etc. because of and through Christ’s atoning death. No Gary, I do not think that I have arrived or that anyone else has arrived and is not in need of additional instruction, experience, and mentoring.
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I knew if we kept talking we would find out that we agree on something chap.
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You are absolutely right Seth.
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Seth, the problem is, he is making a distinction between the difference of criminal law and sin. He apparently does not see justice as needed when it comes to sin. Only forgiveness and grace. That is a major problem as far as I am concerned. Sin requires justice and judgment, both carnally and spiritually, regardless if it is criminal or civil or not. That is what the Bible teaches. Everyone needs to be held to account for their actions, and non-actions. I don’t see that with Wes.
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In the interest of full disclosure…..LOL…..I am and I think everyone else is as well. I forgot to mention Seth and I found a point of agreement as well. Seth and Chap….wow…..we are having a Psalm 133 moment here.
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Lol, the Internet is a strange place. This afternoon I didn’t agree with anything you said Wes. Now we did a 180 🙂
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Although I’m sure I still can’t agree with you on membership. Why do you feel you need membership at your church?
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Chap you must be missing something that I am saying. I have advocated restitution in every instance along with criminal prosecution for sins that are crimes as well. This is justice.
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I don’t know Wes, I kinda see a bit of a Peter and Paul moment…lol
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Well it is very late where I live, I’m headed. Good night everyone!
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It’s not against the law to be a fornicator, and it is a sin to be a fornicator, and yet, you refuse to kick them out as the Bible instructs. It’s not a suggestion. How is restitution involved in fornication? How is restitution involved in idolatry? How is restitution involved in coveting? These are not criminal activities. They are grave sins that God, by the mouth of Paul, said to kick out. You think it’s just a theory not to be practiced, as if it is only a suggestion. Is not 1 Corinthians the Word of God, or the word of Paul? Who are you disobeying by not purging the leaven from your lump (using KJV verbage), God, or Paul?
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Wesley, first of all, you failed to notice that I used gender neutral language in my hypothetical about the pastor and their secretary. In my hypothetical, the pastor could be either male or female, and the secretary could be either male or female. Is it possible that you are prone to assume that it is always the male that fills the dominant, important, and powerful position? More tellingly, you speak of time and repentance and forgiveness and restoration for the male pastor, while for the female secretary there is only the loss of her job and the assumption that she will still be around for possible future reconciliation with the supposedly reformed perp. For the secretary there is no compassion, no understanding, no counsel, no word of forgiveness, no repentance or restoration, no suggestion that maybe, just maybe, she was the VICTIM of a stronger, maybe narcissistic, and generally manipulative personality. There is no responsibility taken by the church or its leadership for having failed in instilling spiritual and personal maturity in it’s congregants. There is no hint that maybe there should be an examination of the church’s failure in having allowed the situation to arise in the first place. Coming back to the secretary, for her there is only the loss of her job, after which it appears she is hung out to dry. I mean no disrespect, but I am having difficulty discerning anything pastoral in your suggested course of discipline.
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I think church membership has very practical implications Seth. Let me illustrate. If a person is just passing through and visiting from time to time and they stop visiting no problem. If a person is a member and they drop off the grid we have an obligation to seek them out and provide help, comfort, encouragement, instruction, etc. to help them through the difficult time.
Membership also speaks of commitment and facilitates our fellowship (not eating together) but ministering together for the cause of the Gospel with the assurance that we will be there for each other.
Membership makes it possible to separate ourselves from those who walk disorderly without shunning them but instead limiting their fellowship and lovingly encouraging them to repent and make restitution (there that word is again).
The epistles of the NT also seem to imply that Christians were united with certain congregations so the letters could be given to congregations and the individuals would get the information.
There are quite a few more but these are just some off the top of my sleepy head.
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No problem Gary. I realize you have already formed an opinion. Let me help you with the gender issue. I do not think there or important or powerful roles in a church of equals with different gifts. In IFB churches we do not have female pastors so I do not normally think in those terms. You indicated that there was no reference to the churches failure in allowing this to arise. Perhaps that you do not understand that a church is not Eden prior to the fall but is made up of people who are redeemed but still capable of sinning. As for the woman being a helpless victim manipulated by this evil man, I must confess that I have had only one wife since I was 19 and so I don’t think in terms of a woman who cannot think for herself and act for herself. I am sorry but I believe women are not so easily manipulated and are much stronger than your explanation of your example would illustrate. The secretary would not be hung out to dry but after repentance (adultery is a sin unless you are raped) she should be restored as Scripture dictates. Naturally there would be an examination to figure out how this could happen and spiritual and physical adjustments would be made to prevent it from happening again.
Perhaps you did not discern anything pastoral in my answer for one of two reasons. First, you are not a pastor and do not know what you are looking for or secondly, I am not a pastor and you don’t have to vent you disdain and anger for pastors on me anymore. LOL…….
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Chap I agree we should terminate the membership of those who are unrepentant sinners until they repent and then we should restore them.
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Wesley, you have been very gracious under fire. Though I wish I could bring you closer to having a greater heart for the hurting than came across in at least your early posts, and though I especially wish I could convince you that even victims who bear some responsibility for their plight are deserving of our UNQUALIFIED understanding and compassion, perhaps I misread you, and perhaps I push too hard. As to your gifting, I certainly am in no position to express an opinion. I do think that there is a tendency for churches to call people pastors when they are actually Spiritually gifted as evangelists, and that this creates confusion. I think that there is an unfortunate tendency to think that getting saved is the be all and end all of the Christian life. I think that evangelicalism is much better at getting people saved (or at least at getting them to say the sinners prayer) than at ministering spiritual maturity, sanctification or whatever you want to call it. I think that all too often churches are structured so that the person who is called the pastor is unaccountable, and I think that this leads to many abuses, both subtle and not so subtle. I have experienced some of the more subtle forms of abuse, but dealt with it by walking away before suffering significant injury. If you have succeeded in avoiding un-Scriptural power structures in your own ministry, I applaud you. I am going to bed now, so don’t think I am simply ignoring any additional posts you may make with me in mind. God bless, and please forgive any offense I may have caused.
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Thanks for the gracious summary Gary. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the problem areas in churches. We work really hard at our church to keep the ministry of pastor from becoming anything more than another ministry. As chap has said we strive to hold everyone accountable as siblings would in a family not as managers would in a workplace.
I do desire a greater compassion for all people. It is not by the size of our ministries but our love for each other that people are able to recognize that we are Christ’s disciples.
God Bless.
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I was really busy last night and couldn’t join in much of the conversation. Sometimes these subjects can be hotly debated – this was done well. Carry on!
I haven’t heard the expression “chap” for a while and I finally put 2 + 2 together that it was for Chapman. I see him as “Ed” LOL Oy, that went over my tall head. Whoosh! 🙂
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Thanks for clearing that up, JA. It went over my head, too. I was beginning to think Pastor Roy was some kind of Anglo-Louisianan hybrid.
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You guys are sooooo funny. Anglo-Louisianan hybrid…….LOL. That made me laugh out loud.
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JA, and Wes
Remember that commercial about Raymond J Johnson Jr. from many years back? You can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnson, or you can call me Jr., butcha doesn’t have to say, Raymond J Johnson Jr.
Julie Anne can call me Ed, and Wes can call me Chap. LOL!!
Anyway, gotta go to work.
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I have come in on this discussion late…..
I will say one thing- “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas” THIS is the church leadership mentality today.
. We are seeing a pastors vs. flock mentality. It is a very elitist attitude that is NOT Biblical or even in the secular world acceptable. We know that Scripture does not at all separate civil law with church law- if someone is guilty of a crime, he must pay for that crime. Sorry, “church law” does not supercede the law, UNLESS the law is requiring you to do something that is unlawful or not Biblical.
We see that many of the churches today look at themselves as the victim (as a whole, not looking at each individual); so anyone critical or exposing the church is looked at as the abuser and I am afraid these guys will not get it. Many pastors (not all) are already narcissists and can easily corral others (pastors, flock, leaders)
to sympathize with them. Never underestimate a narcissist- plenty of them out there too.
One thing I noticed about Wesleys comments was his naivete about the victims in a church. Weslely have you ever read Robert Lifton’s books? One of the most damaging activities (other then sexual or physical abuse) one can do to an individual is to manipulate and damage their spirituality. Mind control and manipulation of the mind is something that can happen and be difficult for one to escape from. Many methods are used to woo and seduce one to think that what they are doing (whether a mixture of bad or good) for the pastor IS Biblical and justified. In fact, the pastor or elders often intermingle with their messages subtle contradictions that make you think “wait a minute” but then load more good on top of it to make you then think “well, he is the pastor, so everything he is saying must be right or I don’t think he really meant that”. Over time you end up being pressured to go along with the rest by many methods that a pastor or elder will have at their disposal: peer pressure, loading the language, mileu control, trance techniques (check out music and lighting that evokes alpha waves in the brain), and etc….
So I ask you who is more responsible the pastor or the flock?
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Trust4himonly I am afraid that I believe the Bible when it says that the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believers would guide them into all truth. I do not think any man is greater than the Holy Spirit and can prevent the Holy Spirit from doing this. Are people manipulated? Yes. Are people pressured? Yes. Are the people that succumb to these methods culpable? Yes, unless the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in them.
Let me give you a secular illustration. In the military commanding officers hold almost absolute power over those under their command. If a soldier is given an unlawful order and he carries out that order both he and the commanding officer will be subjected to UCMJ action. The soldier can refuse to obey the order and face pressure from other to conform and even unjust punishments until his situation can be addressed by a higher command. Nothing of this mitigates his guilt if he follows the unlawful order.
Now in the churches this dichotomy of soldier and commander does not exist. As you have pointed out we are all equals in the churches and people are responsible to not allow anyone to treat them any other way.
As for the “levels” of guilt. We are completely unable to judge that but Scripture is clear that to whom much is given much will be required of them and those of us who are chosen by God to shepherd and teach others will be subjected to a more stringent judgment.
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Oh you foolish Galatians…Do you remember that one? They had the Holy Spirit and were being manipulated. That is why the Apostle Paul had to scold them. He asked, Did you receive the Holy Spirit by…or by…? A baby Christian, or one who is in the milk stage isn’t capable of knowing whether they are being manipulated or not. Do you assume that all Christians having the Holy Spirit are knowledgeable enough to know whether they are being led astray or not? You are naive, as trust4himonly- Faith states. Only the mature Christians would know, but then again, I am sure that you have heard of the Herbert W Armstrong, and Garner Ted Armstrong clan are, right? They are all being deceived. They have no clue what the truth is. They are being manipulated with such statements as, “Check up on me if you don’t believe me in your own bibles”, which really is code for “Trust me, I know what I am teaching you.” They really don’t want anyone to check up on them. They will provide scriptures that are out of sync, not telling the whole truth. And yet, they have no clue. Bottom line, Baby Christians are not in the same place that you are, and are easily swayed to believe what the Pastor/Preacher/Teacher teaches and says, due to the authority that is in HIS control, CONTROL. Control. Lording over others. Not properly feeding the flock. Please don’t be so naive, Wesley Roy. And have compassion, AND EMPATHY for those who have and are being manipulated. No one knows that they are being manipulated until it is too late, or never at all. I don’t understand how you can blame the manipulated. It is mind boggling to me, and others here. Really!! I don’t see empathy from you, all I see is blaming the victim. Really Wes? Do you really think that people want to be manipulated? Do you really think that people with the Holy Spirit cannot be manipulated? Do you really think that all Holy Spirit filled people LISTEN to the Holy Spirit, when they trust the man behind the pulpit who will preach the things that the Apostle Paul had to say, Oh you foolish Galatians? Come on Wes. Please see it from their story, and not yours. LISTEN TO WHAT THE VICTIMS HAVE TO SAY. Don’t say a word…just listen.
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Sorry Wesley- let me tell you something …..many of the church fathers after Peter and Paul were deceived my friend and led many into false doctrines, such as gnosticism. The beloved Augustine was an important father of the Catholic Church and the Eucharist- he was deceived, yet many well meaning Christians have been deceived by him also. I was a Christian for many years and I WAS deceived. I am not too shy to say that I was and my healing was between me and the Lord, who knew exactly how to heal me. It happens….. and yes we are to yield to the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and ALSO use our brains, but sometimes we will go through seasons in life where we may be vulnerable and Satan knows our weaknesses. He is always like a “devouring lion seeking on whom to devour”- why would this be here if Paul did not mean to warn us to watch out for false teachers? Why in Scripture does Paul and Peter (and others) CONTINUALLY warn Christians about these men? Why does Paul state that Satan comes like an “angel of light”- (this means that he will come in a form that seems godly, but is not)?
Especially with baby believers, as Chapmaned stated. This is quite often the case.
We should be standing next to these immature Christians and warn them of these men. I will gladly do so.
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Wesley, even a mature Christian can be deceived- YES, and still be a Christian. This is what troubles me about your comment is that it seems that you are implying that any Christian who is deceived like this probably does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them? Is this what I hear?
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trust4himonly
Lots of good stuff.
Much agreement when you write…
“Wesley, even a mature Christian can be deceived”
Yup – I was deceived for a long time.
And, when you’re deceived – you do NOT know you’re deceived. – Do you?
Thought I was chosen by God for “Pastoral Ministry.” Called to be a “leader.” 😦
Even got myself ordained. Yeah, I was in “Leadership.” Yukky Pukkys. 😦
But, then I read the Bible – And – God opened my eyes…
I couldn’t find anyone with the “title pastor” or “called pastor.”
It took a few years, and lots a “Spiritual Abuse” by those I had trusted…
But eventually I left “the Corrupt Religious System” and ripped up those papers.
Just look at all the folks today who have the Title/Position “pastor/leader/reverend.”
But, in the Bible… (And I’m thinking, The Bible, is it still our standard?)
NOT one of His Disciples call themselves – “pastor/leader/reverend.”
NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple – “pastor/leader/reverend.”
NOT one of His Disciples have the Title/Position – “pastor/leader/reverend.”
NOT one of His Disciples were ever – Hired, or Fired, as a – “pastor/leader/reverend.”
IMO – They are as deceived as I was – Thinking I had this special gift as shepherd.
Seems, in the Bible, Jesus is the only “ONE” with the “Title” Shepherd.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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trust4himonly
Seems when you take the “Title” and “Position” Pastor/Reverend/Leader…
That seemingly innocent “Title” comes with something – “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition – Reputation – etc…
ALL those things Jesus spoke against.
ALL those things that become “Idols” of the heart.
ALL those things “Highly esteemed among men – But…
……. an abomination in the sight of God. Luke KJV 16:15
In my experience… With Pastors, and having been in Leadership… shows me…
“Titles” become “Idols” ……………. (“Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV)
“Pastors” become “Masters” ……. ( A No, No, in Mat 23:10 KJV)
And these “Idols,” carried in the Pastors heart, are unseen to the natural eye, extremely difficult to lay down and walk away from. They become an addiction. And like any addiction – you never have enough – you always need more and more to satisfy the addiction. You think you’re in control, tell others you’re in control – but the addiction controls you. You’re in bondage to an addiction – and a lie – and you do NOT know it.
Power corrupts – and absolute power – corrupts absolutely.
And in my experience with “Todays Corrupt Religious System.” This “power” corrupts ALL who attempt to wield this “power.” This “power” they think they have – to rule over others – to be obeyed – to be someone special – to be someone important – to be a leader – is leading them to – Burnout – depression – hopelessness – discouragement – failure – and their families are effected as well…
This addiction to – Power – Profit – Prestige – is like other addictions – it destroys those who believe they can handle it. These addictions NOT only injures the Pastor/Leader – They also injure the Pastors family.
The statistics – for burned out pastors – say…
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php
80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression. (Depression effects the whole family.)
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Today, when someone says they are a pastor/leader/reverend…
My “Trust-Less Meter” sounds a warning alarm.
Because today I have “trust4himonly”
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Trust4 you seem to be quite defensive. I think that there are many elders (hows that AA) who can stand next to immature Christians and help them move to maturity. Trust4 I am not in any position to determine who is a disciple of Christ any more than you or anyone else. I am simply stating that the Scripture makes it clear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. There is also a great difference between deception and misinformation. A person can be in error and not be deceptive. It is called growth in sanctification and knowledge of Christ. As for “church fathers”, most of them were heretics. They were not deceive but simply heretical in their views with some even denying cardinal doctrines. Because of that I simply stick with the Scriptures instead of their interpretations of the Scriptures or their “visions” and “dreams”.
AA your comments are wild. I can help you with the pastor problem. Let’s call them elders or bishops. Now does that make you feel better? Now you may have to do a little more reading to find churches that are without human leaders. Timothy, Titus, and even the second and third chapter of Revelation will show that you have arrived at an erroneous doctrinal stand on leadership. We could also look to the writings of Pete and the book of Hebrews as well to find there is leadership in the churches. Jesus was not shy about describing the nature of the leaders in churches as ministers and not lords. Sorry about your bad experiences but they do not alter biblical doctrine. Because someone is doing it wrong does not mean that it should not be done. There is much domestic abuse in the world but that is no reason to outlaw marriage.
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We all know that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. BUT “HOW DOES” the Holy Spirit do that?
How does the Holy Spirit work, Wes? Thru people, right? It seems to me, that by your logic, that the Apostle Paul only had to go about setting up churches and leaders in the church, and that was it. Job done. It’s the Holy Spirit’s work now, right? I
think you need to elaborate on HOW the Holy Spirit leads everyone into all truth.
Why did the Apostle Paul admonish Holy Spirit filled Christians? You make it sound as tho all Paul really didn’t have to do anything, that all they needed to do was to be led by an invisible force into all truth, rather than by words and deeds of a person to intervene.
Holy Spirit filled people were being and were being warned not to be led astray. WHY? Because it was possible for the devil to change himself into an angel of light. Isn’t that what scripture states?
I am still not getting you. Paul had to intervene with letters to get people back on the right track. Why is that?
How do you get church’s back on the right track? Do you write letters to church’s, admonishing them, like Paul did? Or do you just sit back and do nothing, saying that the Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth?
How does the Holy Spirit do that? Tell us.
If you aren’t writing epistles to church’s, why aren’t you?
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Chap the Holy Spirit uses people. People who God places in the ministries. The Holy Spirit also uses the Scriptures to reveal error and truth to people in these churches that are willing to stay and correct the problem. The Holy Spirit moves on the hearts of people invisibly to bring them to repentance and acknowledgement of the truth in these churches.
I don’t get you either Chap. You complain about the heavy-handed leadership of men in these churches and then suggest that we begin an Apostolic pen-pal ministry to churches that we disagree with but have no real involvement with. I submit that we must be willing to get involved in these ministries to set things in order like Timothy and Titus. If we are not willing to get our hands dirty and take risks then we cannot expect to accomplish anything by simply bad-mouthing them in every public forum available to us.
Chap you really come across pretty agressive. If I was prone to being intimidated your posts would definitely do it……LOL. I am sure that is not your intention considering the nature of this blog. What I am saying is that sometimes we have to get to know the people to know their motives for what they are doing and we may even find that some, like you, do not know that their words and actions are potentially intimidating. Unless you are really trying to intimidate and berate me into submission………LOL.
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I complain of the heavy handed leadership in the church, if the heavy hand is deception and lies. I complain of the lies told in the church by the preacher/teacher, which leads to abuse. I am all for calling out a spade. I have and do write letters to various churches. I am just wondering what was the last church you wrote to, admonishing them for their lies? But you blame the abused, not the abuser. Oh, but you will blame the abuser if it is a criminal law, but if it deals with fornication, etc., just let the Holy Spirit deal with it. God’s gonna do what God’s gonna do, right? God’s in charge, so let’s just sit back and watch, right? NO, God wants us to do something. Evil flourishes when good men just sit on their butts, and do nothing. What are you gonna do about the spiritual abuse in church’s besides admonish the abused, who you really don’t think has been abused in the first place. That is what I don’t get from you.
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Wesley: Can you point to a post where you feel Ed is aggressive? I’ve been reading them. Did someone post you are from LA or was that just joking around? I couldn’t tell. If you are from LA or the South, you probably have more “gracious” speech. I’m probably more like Ed. I remove flowery language and say it like it is. I’m quite amazed that people read what I write, actually – lol. 🙂
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Chap I would feel abused if it were possible for me to be intimidate……LOL. I think you have forgotten all of my previous posts.
This is my problem. People looking from the outside deciding that they have all the answers when they don’t have all the information. If you are willing to do more than write a letter and get involved in the church and find out what is really going on fine. If all you are willing to do is blast them with your opinion based on secondhand information then that is not fine. I am not foolish enough to expect a perfect church to exist anywhere because there are people. Jesus had his Judas and James and John and Paul had his Demas. There will always be problems and problem people unless you meet in your living room with the 2 other families that agree with you completely which would be a far cry from anything that Scripture records.
Now as for blame. It is simple. I blame people for their actions. No matter what excuses they give. A rape victim is not at fault for being raped. A person who is seduced shares in blame, not equal blame, with the seducer. A person who is bullied shares in the blame, not equal blame, with the bully. A person who is coerced into lying to cover up anything is blameworthy.
You rant my friend about preachers/teachers being overbearing but have no problem with agressive insulting posts and by your admission sending out apostolic letters to people you don’t know about situations you have only heard of and are not willing to dirty your hands to fix. Paul wrote a letter to Corinth and told them they were a mess because he couldn’t get there at the time. He told them that his intention was to get to them and see the matter for himself. That would be a good approach.
Now tone it down my friend. I do not like power hungry church leadership either. I do not think people should take advantage of people for any reason. I am on your side on this one.
Oh yeah, and you are wasting heat because I am never intimidated. I think I would really like you Chap if we ever really met……LOL.
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I am from Louisiana JA. I do have a tendency to be quite polite especially when speaking to people I do not personally know and in a public forum as a disciple of Christ. I do not want people who may be just reading the comments in passing to get the impression that I do not like those that I disagree with.
Chap’s emphatic “How…..How……How” post came across pretty agressive but it is not problem with me if it is no problem with Chap. I commented on my last post that I think I would like Chap if I go to know him personally. I have no problem taking it but I have been personally convicted to be gracious in giving it.
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Wes, as someone who has been in many house churches, I assure you that even meeting with two families in a living room can lead to problems
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Somehow I can believe it Seth.
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If you are not intimidated, then it is impossible for me to intimidate, and therefore, I have nothing to worry about, and neither do you. But I do question authority, and I have no problem in doing so. I was in the military (USN) for many years, and I know that it is not wrong, nor against the UCMJ to question authority where there is cause. But it sure makes those who are in authority uncomfortable coming from me. Good. I am glad it makes them uncomfortable. But I don’t think for one minute that it equates to intimidation. Back in the early to mid 80’s, I had a problem with a division officer, and I fought back. He didn’t think I had the guts, as I was a lowly lowly E3 at the time. I wrote letters to Congress, and it bit him in the butt in the end. Yes, I write letters. I was in an abusive church, but I had knowledge that most did not, and I fought back as well, then I left. I wrote letters to the elders, speaking my mind. I have no problem in doing so. I know the signs. I have seen them.
Bottom line, as I said before, Justice. Justice is needed. Does God want us in bondage, or free? If there are oppressive leaders in the church, and there are, HOW (since you don’t like that word coming from me) do YOU free the oppressed? Do you just sit back and do nothing, or do you get involved?
It sounds to me like YOU do nothing but trust that the Holy Spirit will handle it, and lead them into all truth. What do YOU do? Faith without works is dead, is it not?
What I see you do it blame, with no action to free the oppressed. So, I question your authority. Blame is not an action word. Love is an action word. What does love look like? Being gracious in speech only, or in deed? How polite was the Apostle Paul at times? He was down right mean at times, was he not? Yes, he was. Was Paul intimidating when he was calling people out? Neither am I.
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Do you really have 17 kids?
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This comment string is the oddest I’ve ever seen. Surely after close to 200 comments Wes and Chap are closer to settling than not…….are you guys?
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Yes Seth I have 17 children. Three are married and one who is not married is in the Army but the other 13 are here at home.
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You must have 4 leveled bunk beds 🙂 are families that large common for Baptists in the Deep South ?
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Wesley – I just took a look at Ed’s “how . . . how” post and I don’t see that as aggressive at all. I see that as pointed questions in an attempt to cut to the chase. In other words, no need to sugar-coat it.
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Seth: Re: 17 children – -I’m so glad you didn’t respond to Wesley:
“You know what causes that, don’t you?”
I lost track of how many times I’ve been asked that question. 🙂
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No they are not that common Seth. We are a bit of an anomaly. I have a friend who has 12 in MS and I know another family that has 18 in LA.
No problem with the post JA. People have different perspectives and your knowing Chap gives you the more accurate perspective. I just imagined that if a pastor were to talk to a person in the congregation as pointedly Chap would consider that to be abuse but has no problem talking to someone else like that because they are a pastor that he assumes is trying to close ranks when nothing could be farther from the truth.
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Chap I differ from you in that I do not believe that I have all knowledge of any situation in another church to send apostolic letters to them. I do trust God and believe that God is more than able to correct those that are in error in His church since we all agree that Jesus is the head of the church. HOW, you ask? LOL….By all means at his disposal including apostolic letters from Chap when He sees fit and personal involvement by Wes when He sees fit.
I think part of the strength of our congregation is that I teach/preach that God is more than able to take care of everything and therefore people do not look to me to have the answers for their every problem but instead look to God. I like it that way. Every member in our congregation is not hesitant to let any other member know when they see behavior or attitudes that do not appear to line up with Scripture and evidence the work of the Holy Spirit in their life. I am subject to this like everyone else. Everything that is taught/preached is subject to biblical scrutiny by everyone. The church is the pilliar and ground of the truth not the pastor.
Now with all that said Seth I think Chap and I are saying the same things in many instances just differently. Chap would like me to denounce all pastoral leaders and I would like for chap to give all the benefit of the doubt like any other brother or sister in Christ until they demonstrate that they are walking contrary to Scripture. Part of our difference comes from the fact that IFB’s do not have the hierarchal system that SGM has so the level of information available about other churches is drastically different. I think we will arrive any minute now Seth. LOL.
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Wesley – but this is a debate which is a completely different context.
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No, Wes, I would not consider that abuse. For example, I quote you scripture, and you take it as theory only without the deed of action. That flabbergasts me to no end.
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Ah good :). Some of chaps posts are coming across as aggressive to me as well. But I’m in the Midwest. So maybe it’s regional for me too lol
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Well, Seth, you think that the Bible proclaims that God created gay people, that they were born that way. But that isn’t what my Bible states. And Wes blames the victim for being, as he puts it, seduced. So, yes, I have a problem with both of those things. Denial is not a river in Egypt. Spiritual Abuse is real, and it is not imagined. These days, churches are public, on television, on the internet, whether streamed, or on YouTube, and in various other means. So to say that we need to give the abusers the benefit of the doubt is being, in my view, voluntarily ignorant, and voluntarily defending the abusive preacher teacher, just because you yourself is a preacher teacher. You defend your own, and listen not to the abused. Your ears are shut to the abused, but your ears are wide open with the benefit of the doubt from the leaders.
The Apostle Paul said in his letters that it has been told to him…Wes, wasn’t that considered heresy? He didn’t verify it, he just said that he heard about it. Did he give the church in Corinth the benefit of the doubt? Or did he call them out on it without verifying if it was true or not?
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Chap I never said Scripture should be taken in theory only and not put into practice. I simply wanted to know if you were cherry picking the passage on church discipline. You made it clear that you were not. James said if we are hearers and not doers we deceive ourselves and this is the last place that I as a pastor would want to deceive anyone including myself. LOL. 🙂
JA I am glad Seth didn’t ask that question to…..LOL. Can you imagine how many times I have heard it?
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I said heresy, but meant hearsay.
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The bible doesn’t state either way whether or not ppl are born gay. I’m just saying Wes was one acting like a troll at the beginning of this string, but now you are, just saying…
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As I said before, Wes, I don’t see Church discipline in the Bible. I see a choice, either repent, or be kicked out. There is no in between choices. I see no hail Mary’s, I see no penance. I see repent from one person, and forgiveness from the victim. But if one does not repent, to kick him out.
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Really, Seth? a troll? A troll disrupts and is obnoxious. It seems like Ed is just relentless and driven to me.
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Seth, I see it as a conversation, a debate, not a troll. It’s sunday night, and a good night for some coffee and a discussion.
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Sorry JA, it was just my impression and not my blog of course. They seem to be arguing over semantics and chap seems to be misreprenting Wes s position.
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Ok 🙂 no prob then. You must live in a different part of the country. New York maybe, or Boston. 🙂
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Chap you are to smart a guy to convince me that you think it is a good idea for you to pen apostolic letters correcting churches you have only listened to internet broadcasts from or on unfounded allegations. I am sure you know you are not Paul.
What is disturbing is that without any evidence you claim I am protecting some mythical power base simply because I am a pastor when my posts intimate no such thing. It is also pretty strange that you say these pastors are wrong for exercising apostolic power in the lives of people but you have no problem with you exercising apostolic power over churches, especially their pastors.
Cognitive dissonance anyone?
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The Seattle area, just west of Seattle. It’s only 9:16 pm.
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Chap I was feeling bad about leaving the conversation but you are cheating. 🙂 It’s after 11 here.
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Wes, Oh, I see, so you would just rather the abuse continue until decided on by a court of law, then chime in?
Trustinhimonly posted a few great posts to you, but you aren’t getting it. It’s as if you just brushed her aside, as if her word was meaningless. I take her word seriously, and you should, too. Where is your heart of compassion, and empathy? You just wait until things are adjudicated in a court first, without taking a leap of faith that people are currently in spiritual abuse?
You give the benefit of the doubt to the leaders, instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to the abused. Yes, it is wrong for the leaders to THINK that they have POWER over anyone. They don’t. Their job is to feed, not LORD OVER. They have no POWER. How can you even use that word? It’s disgusting.
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Chap you are not reading my posts. If power is disgusting what gives you power to correct pastors/churches without it being disgusting? What makes you superior to all pastors?
Where is your compassion and empathy for the pastors who are doing it right?
I agree that pastors have no power (disgusting) over people but I also do not believe Chap has any power (equally disgusting) over churches/pastors. 🙂
Now go back and read my posts slowly…only the words that are there … not what you know I meant because I am a (dare I say it) pastor. LOL
I am not ignoring you my friend but this p—– (I feel better already not typing the p-word out 🙂 ) has to get up at 5 am to head to work. Grace and peace my friend. I am really more in agreement with you than you think.
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Wesley – I’m trying to understand how you see Ed showing power over pastors/churches? Are you saying that because he’s challenging you, a pastor?
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I never said I had POWER. The only power is OF God, which comes FROM God.
What I do is NOT a power issue. It is a Christian duty, as an ambassador of Christ.
Those who do it right have no need to be called out as those who do it wrong. There are many church’s that do it right. I am not worried about them.
You have a good night, Wes.
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JA if a pastor wrote a letter challenging some aspect of a congregate’s life would that be exercising power? If yes what is the difference between that and Chap’s apostolic letters besides the fact that Chap is not a pas—. I just can’t bring myself to type it. As for his challenging me, that has no bearing because I have no problem with anyone challenging anything I preach, teach, or post as long as they are not reading or listening and saying you said that but what you really meant is this. No I said or posted what I meant.
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I know your question was to JA, but what Power are you talking about? That word is misused. I looked up the word Power, as it pertains to the Bible usage.
We are all of equal power, no one is above another, and no one is lower than another. Jesus is King of kings, Lord of lords. The ranking system is all the same.
This is not a military style religion. We are of the same body of Christ, and if one part of the body hurts, we all are to hurt.
Is another church a part of the body, or a different body?
Why do you think that you have no authority to intervene in another church’s affairs, when that church is also a part of the same body that you are in?
Is it wrong to get involved, or is it the Christian thing to do? I say that it is the Christian thing to do.
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I have been following the interesting discussion going on here which has touched on many inter-related church topics. From the following perspective, I thought that I would add some thoughts. In one of the Search Keyphrases on my Church Exiters.com site was this question: ‘Why are toxic leaders allowed to remain so long?’ That question got me prompted to think about these issues and an article was birthed. It will eventually get posted on my site. I will include a few sections here as I believe they fit nicely into this conversation:
“If it is felt that the pastor, as ‘the man of God’ has special powers beyond those of the average Christian, then those who buy into that type of belief and organizational structure will get exactly that type of leader. Along the way, there may be church leaders who are generally caring pastors, but the tendency to create a church culture that expects this type of leader will, over time, find that they will ‘get’ leaders who will live up to this expectation. The outcome, all too often, feeds into unhealthy leadership behaviors. These patterns could affect the overall spiritual health of the church. . . .
Most conscientious church groups have things in place for gross moral failure in the leadership, which is usually immediate removal. When it comes to issues of spiritual abuse and/or other problematic behaviors, most churches do not seem to have ways of recognizing and dealing with these more subtle and harder to define leadership problems. If suitable policies are not in place, at both the local church and denominational levels, then things will pretty much continue to run the way that they have always been done in the past.
As with other social and moral issues, when Christians are fed up with how things have been done in the past, when people are genuinely grieved over how things remain at a status quo, and when individuals are concerned about the future of the Church as a whole, then there will be a chance for some positive change.
• If no one is willing to challenge specific problems in the system, then the systemic problems remain.
• If no one feels that the pain of doing nothing is greater than the pain that they are experiencing, then nothing will change. . . .
So often, when people look solely to God for sovereign intervention, without being prepared for any personal involvement, that too is a disappointing way of dealing with issues—since Kingdom issues invariably require an individual or a group to take up the cause and then to participate. When people realize that God is looking for individuals to champion a cause and take godly action directed by his Holy Spirit, then change can begin.”
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