Pastor Eric Davis of The Cornerstone Church (WY) Decides to Remove Two Comments from Women and Closes Further Commenting
-by Kathi
Thanks to Boston Lady, I looked up a blog post that was linked in a comment on this blog’s previous post. Eric Davis wrote, “Reasons We Miss Church (But May Not Need To)” which was posted on The Cripplegate.
This post discusses all of the wrong reasons why someone might miss church. They include:
- “There is no command that says I need to go to church every Sunday.”
- “There aren’t any good churches in my area.”
- “Family/friends are in from out of town.”
- “The preacher/teacher I like is not preaching/teaching.”
- “I can watch the/another gathering online, or listen to a message online.”
- “Recent birth of a child.”
- “Gatherings are too long.”
- “It conflicts with the kids’/family’s schedule/sleep/sports/stuff.”
- “Church is far away.”
- “I work during the church gatherings.”
- “I am traveling.”
- “Some hard things have happened and I need space.”
- “I’m tired.”
- “The church isn’t a location or an event, but people, so I don’t need to be there.”
- “My spouse/significant other/roommate is staying home so I will too.”
- “I know all of these reasons, but you just don’t understand my situation.”
As noted by Boston Lady, the ever eloquent A. Amos Love had left some comments on there, so I decided to chime in as well.
Then I asked Julie Anne if she had seen it and she decided to comment too (her tweet came later after learning her comment was removed):
A little bit later in the night I received a text from Julie Anne asking if I knew what happened to the post. Eric Davis decided that enough “robust discussion” had taken place and closed the comments. He also decided to delete my comment as well as Julie Anne’s (noted by the “Removed” sign in our screen shot comment).
When I left my comment, I noticed that the previous one had been made a day earlier. Why all of a sudden are comments closed and two are deleted? I know I’m risking my attitude being questioned when I ask this, but was it because two women were challenging the authority of a pastor and elders over the congregants? Was it because we are outside of this congregation and asking questions? Lord knows if anyone within the congregation is willing/able to ask questions. If we had left these comments with male pseudonyms would they have been allowed to stay and perhaps had some discussion to follow? Did we step on authoritarian pastor’s toes and question why the church needs to have so much control over people’s lives?
When I first read this post it screamed 9Marks to me, and by golly they are affiliated with 9Marks. Then I went and read the church by-laws and I was left concerned about how much control this church has over its members. You can be sure that there will be more to discuss later. That was a valiant attempt at trying to leave us out of the conversation, Eric Davis.
Oh, and comments will remain on.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hmmmmm…..
Wonder if they know that God gave pastors this job description:
(Ezekiel 34)
1) Strengthen the weak
2) Heal the sick
3) BANDAGE THE HURT
4) Bring back the ones that wandered away
5) Look for the ones that were lost
6) Feed the sheep
That’s a lot more work than just preaching two sermons a week—but that’s what God expects from pastors. If the church would do that—people would come.
Here’s the heart of God grieving over what’s still happening today
“Now listen to what I, the living Lord God, am saying to you shepherds. My sheep have been attacked and eaten by wild animals, because you refused to watch them. You never went looking for the lost ones, and you fed yourselves without feeding my sheep.” (Ezekiel 34:8 CEV)
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Thanks to my excellent ability to read the Scriptures myself I’ve come to realise that the church are the people of God.
Not an organisation.
Not a place.
Not a religious meeting on Sunday morning.
Armed with this knowledge I am free to gather/assemble with other members of Christ’s Body (singular) in my home (without a salaried religious facilitator present) to exhort/encourage/serve in my time and at my own cost.
Thankfully the LORD led ELDERS (godly OLDER folk) into my life who are able to provide counsel when required.
Elders are not salaried religious professionals.
They are NOT a special category of Christian called ‘The Pastor’.
Traditions of men are clouding a) the Scriptures and b) common sense (which we leave at the door and only seem to get back years after leaving the Club)
The greatest shall be the least.
Boom 💥
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Kathi and Julie Anne,
Now you may understand (in context) my concern for one of the commenters on the “Cripplegate” site, a certain Nicki. Wow, has she been indoctrinated! And is she going to be sorry later! Of course, I don’t want it to be the case, but in a controlling, authority-fetish institution like Davis’, that’s the way it always goes. Almost all the time…for women.
Yes, “pastor” Davis’ is trying to silence you, Kathi and Julie Anne, and yes, because you are women and questioning their authority and because your comments make sense and are not in line with his and his movement’s controlled way of thinking. Oh, please don’t be fooled for one minute by his pious, two paragraph-long guilt trip that he has tried to put on you and on anyone who dare miss church for whatever reason (ya think death would be a good excuse NOT to go?). Church, in his movement, comes first (it secures salvation, don’t you know? It’s in their beloved Institutes), be it–in my opinion–a church that obviously peddles a false gospel. Can it be any clearer? The affiliation with 9Marks is an ocean of red flags! Kathi’s comments were accurate and got to the heart of the matter…authority and control. That’s what it’s all about. Funny enough, John 4:23 clearly indicates that God’s (priesthood of) believers can worship God at any time and any place. And Julie Anne’s comment hit a very sensitive place, ouch!
Having (unfortunately) read through Davis’ condescending, belittling, rather dictatorially and sarcastic article, it is clear he does not understand the meaning of Priesthood of Believers or knows nothing much about normal human behavior or free will. Why? Because those ideas take control and authority away from his certain brand of institutionalized church and its “leadership.” And that hits the pockets, doesn’t it?
Following on from all this is the all-important CONTROL over anyone who walks through the doors of a church such as Davis’. Believe me, a place like that think they own you the second you walk into it…if you’re a woman, whether you belong to it or not.
So, for future reference, best avoid “Cripplegate” and all its affiliates unless you want to feel sick when you don’t want to. It is one of the worst sites on the Internet. By a mile.
Julie Anne and Kathi: Thanks for following up; I don’t have an investigative nose for things like you two bloodhounds. I have other things I look out for, things I’ve been through, for example. It’s like a certain illness that always presents with the same signs and symptoms…one would be foolish and unwise and uncaring to ignore them once they start to show. You know what I am referring to.
Yes, Kathi, I also don’t go to “church” any longer. It was too stressful, to say the least. So I guess your “Sunday Gathering” is totally unbiblical and anti-Cripplegate then? Let’s pretend we care.
Love and hugs; may SSB go from strength to strength, and may those fake pillars fall one after another, the whole lot of them.
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Salty,
Have you and A. Amos Love ever considered collaborating writing a piece? It would be entertaining on so many levels!
You
understand
Sure?
{{{{{{ }}}}}}
Thanks again for letting us know the truth in no uncertain terms (the way it should be).
Blessings, Salty (you always make my day, no matter what time it is over here)
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I’m gonna channel Severus Snape here for a second.
“How disappointing…”
“How grand it must be to be the Chosen One…”
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My sister and missus and I were just talking about a related thing last night. These guys will likely all say they believe in the priesthood of all believers – heck, most’ll say it’s a core tenant of Baptist history, something that makes us who we are as a denomination! This was across the board in my experience at 2 IFB churches, an SBC church, a 9marx/MacArthurite church, and now at a non-denom church we currently attend. The non-denom church seems to take it seriously, and there’s results, practical ramifications – it’s a truly free community as far as the extent of your participation. The rest of them? It was a fun abstract to talk about as a point of doctrine but it had no practical meaning. The pastors were free to meddle in lives in person and from the pulpit, and though they’d usually not go as far as questioning salvation(wouldn’t want to appear like one of those works salvation regions!), it was clear your commitment to Christ was based on your participation and obedience in a man’s vision and ministry. It also meant, at least in some of them, the pastors kept congregants in a perpetual state of spiritual childhood or adolescence – the priesthood of all believers basically means you’re free now to want to obey your pastors and follow their vision of what following Christ should look like for you. Heck, in some circles, even pastors don’t have real freedom in Christ – peer pressure from other pastors will often keep them doing the same things the same way.
These guys like the idea of the priesthood of all believers, until the practical results get messy and their weekly influence and power is weakened, and the thought of members who decide they no longer need to be spoon fed every week is a tough pill to swallow, and then they gotta band together to keep their sheep in line with some guilt trip blog posts that may stop short of saying you’re not saved or committed to Christ if you skip church, but only leave you one option if you want to follow Christ.
I’m tired.
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It’s because you were both too articulate and wise. You pulled the curtain back with TRUTH. Satan hates a powerful, God centered woman. She must be silenced, or his poppycock may be seen for what it is.
Thanks for letting me comment. 😉
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I agree GP.
“For sure I believe in the Priesthood of believers! We are all members! Jesus is the head and naturally as The Pastor I am the neck”.
🙃
PAIN IN THE NECK. 😆🙋
Can’t do it BL. I cannot trust myself haha.
Still waiting for the self control fruit to come in.
I’ve knocked off most of the list.
Meekness
Goodness
Incredible Humility
Pretty much ready to be taken like Enoch.
-arrived- 🚀
So tired too GP.
Jesus turned over tables.
He gets it.
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Wemmick Girl,
Being the father of lies, Satan hates truth. Period.
Contrary to popular “church” myth (presupposed by the men in the various movements), not every woman is an Eve.
You mean you’ve been allowed to comment on SSB without a mandatory, non-negotiable, 5-year probation period and personal SSB-clearance? Unbelievable! 🙂
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From Eric Davis’ comment, I’d like to comment (since we can no longer comment on the original post): “I’d encourage us to be more zealous to examine our hearts and work towards humble, eager involvement with Christ’s bride which he loves, than disputing logistics. I know I need to do that.”
Point #1 – I’m assuming he’s telling me that I need to be more humble in being involved with the body of Christ. Well, I tend to not talk about what I do because not only would it involve breaching confidentiality, but because it’s nobody else’s business! What I do is between me and God, not any other human being.
Point #2 – If he’s so concerned about not focusing on logistics, then why in the world did he write a 16 point post about the reasons people give for not coming to church?! 16 POINTS! Did he and the elders come up with this list during a meeting or has he been keep tally all this time? All of these deal with logistical issues, so why is he even bringing it up? I’m making a logical guess it’s all about making sure that people are kept in their proper place and if they’re not coming in the doors than the $$ isn’t coming in either.
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I remember Cripplegate in its early days. I stopped reading the blog started by those three young men when they wrote a post insisting that no Christian should ever give charity to a non-Christian unless it was part of an evangelistic agenda toward the person.
They are the ones I reference in my 2014 post Feeding the Homeless, Three Scones at a Time when I wrote: A couple of years ago a team of three young pastors started a new blog. They were eager, they were earnest, and they were woefully lacking in experience. One day they wrote an article on how to help the poor: either confine it to those who are already believers or couple it with evangelism if the poor people are not Christians. They insisted that any other assistance to the poor is not only prohibited by Scripture, but that it is sinful and a waste of God’s riches.
Suffice to say that in my post I disagree with the Cripplegate folks.
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Gov. Pappy –
In regard to priesthood of all believers, I would expect what you described in authoritarian churches. They may give lip service to acknowledge it, but the reality is that it’s not practiced.
I spent most of my adult life in non-denom Christian churches. And, yes, I would agree that the leadership is more open to practicing the priesthood of all believers. However, where I saw a difference was when it came down to women’s leadership in the church. A woman may be acknowledged as a priest in the greater body, but she could never hold the title of pastor. It was always director or coordinator. Same job and responsibilities, different title. This also meant the pastors also served as an elder, she could not.
I have started seeing a change in that in some of the non-denom churches in the Portland area though and I’m glad to see them open up to having women as leaders.
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9Marks attitude toward the “toxic” non-attenders:
http://9marks.org/article/those-toxic-non-attenders/
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Kathi: Agreed. That freedom has varying degrees of application.
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Kathi, it’s interesting that in that 9Marks post you link in your comment Matt Schmucker disagrees with Eric Davis on two points. Davis says missing church because of work or age/illness are part of his list of invalid reasons to miss church. Schmucker says such people should be given grace in their situations.
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Tim – I’m having trouble opening the link at the moment. If I remember correctly, that was written quite a while ago. I guess this is Eric’s updated version.
When I saw this list I immediately thought that this had to be a 9Marks affiliated church because I remembered reading an article almost identical to this on the 9Marks site. Unfortunately, I’m having trouble locating that right now. It could be that I read something similar on another gospel approved site.
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Kathi- I had to skim your 9marks link because I cannot stomach their attitude & self righteous, holier than thou rhetoric, along with their plethora of words. We all here know the bottom line in that link is all about the Benjamin’s $$$. I have been having a blast the past 10 years giving our “tithe” money to people with real needs & that includes atheists at times. “Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done to me.” The truth really does set us free.
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Well, my comments (under a different screen name) still stand… perhaps they couldn’t be sure whether I’m a Jezebel, since my avatar and pseudonym don’t make it clear.
I’m inclined to think that Kathi is correct. She and JA got kicked off because a) they’re female, and b) they’re less than utterly indoctrinated into their pastor-exalting, chauvinistic control-freakery.
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If this guy goes to the hospital he should hope to get some caring nonbelieving doctors and nurses because believers shouldn’t help him.
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Irene,
I like your conclusion, which is correct (Tim’s comment refers?) Consistency is NOT one of this movement’s characteristics. You gotta be kidding. Hypocrites, Irene, hypocrites. They don’t practice what they preach because they are clueless as to what they are preaching. Inconsistent much? Yes, all the time, they are.
No, he’ll get the best treatment with money as forcefully tithed by sheep. Did I say sheep? Baa!
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I don’t want to be all ‘master of the obvious’ but I think it’s a good idea to point something out.
Matt Schmuck wrote this:
“In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle Paul speaks of the body and its parts as a metaphor for the church:”
Then Mr Schmuck quotes Scriptures here:
“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.” (1 Cor 12:12)
“Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.” (1 Cor 12:27)”
Question time!
How many bodies of Christ are there? Hint: 1 Corinthian 12:12
Is Christ the head of ONE body?
Is the church a singular body or is it multiples?
How many heads does Christ have and for how many bodies?
How does the New Testament define the Church?
If it’s not a building or a club or a place but a BODY made up of many members… and if the early church didn’t have CLUB houses (wrongly called ‘churches’) then is it possible that perhaps there is only ONE body with ONE head that is ONE church comprised of MANY members?
Is it possible that Christendom does not understand the meaning of Ekklesia?
Just asking
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I posted a few tweets last night and this morning, so I’ll post them here since Pastor Eric Davis joined the conversation for one response. There was no apology.
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Tim, part of the reason I left my first/last denomination was that thinking. A committee wrote a paper that was accepted by denominational leadership and was potentially going to be turned into a position paper (don’t know why it didn’t). The premise of the paper was that the only “help” a person could get is to become a Christian, and that we should never “help” people unless that help was leading them towards conversion. It was about what occupations Christians could serve in, and essentially eliminated just about every occupation except for pastor.
So, for example, I couldn’t be a marriage counselor because the only counsel I could give to an unbelieving couple would be, your marriage is doomed unless you both become Christians.
Fascinating that Jesus discipled Judas for over three years, knowing full well that he would, in the end, reject and betray him. If our only purpose in life is to hook converts, why would Jesus show incredible love and patience to someone who would never convert?
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Prayer has become the scapegoat—–the excuse for avoiding personal responsibility in the body of Christ. Here’s a great example of someone asking Julie to ask God to force them to make that personal choice!
But if God refuses to force us to accept Christ, the most important decision of all, why would God force us to make any other decision in our lives?
When Jesus was limited by other people’s choices, He still didn’t try to control them or make their choices for them. Jesus just grieved that “I have wanted……but you wouldn’t let me.” Matt 23:37 (Also see Matt 13:58)
Whether or not this person “grows in humility” is 100% their personal choice and responsibility.
There are more important things for us to pray for. (See Luke 10:2)
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A church that treats me like a child who needs a note from the doctor to prove I had a good reason to miss church is a church I will be going to for very long.
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Kathi, that 9marx article is just precious. “4. They Worry Their Leaders”??
Non-attenders don’t hurt anyone, except maybe the pastors ego, which is why the blog above specifically calls out people who skip the pastors whose preaching they don’t like. (btw, I don’t do that with church but I will skip sunday schools with topics or teachers I don’t enjoy)
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Avid Reader, “prayer” has become a chosen tool of abuse in the church. It’s also a codeword for “this is what I want you to do”. That is, the pastor who says “ask for God’s leading in whether you should come to the men’s breakfast on Saturdays” is REALLY saying. If you don’t come to the breakfast, you aren’t listening to God. Keep in mind it was Simon the magician who asked for the disciples to pray for him – after trying to buy their “magic” gift with money. Simon is not exactly the example we should be following in godliness.
I really appreciate my new pastor in that way. He seems to recognize that there are relationship circles within the church, and that while he can promote prayer in general, and even areas where we can prey in general, he really pushes that challenging and convicting others comes from a closer relationship. He recommends that we find others in the church – spiritual fathers and children, as it were, who we do allow to speak into our lives in that way.
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I’m not addressing them censoring the posts and such right now.
I am too currently intrigued and horrified by the legalism in the list of reasons he thinks people should go to church, and how they have turned regular church attendance or church membership into idols
I see some perfectly valid reasons on this long list of – what is it, 14 or 15 reasons – that are legitimate for people to skip church for a day, a season, or permanently.
I don’t care what these guys or ones like them say. If I don’t want to attend a church, I am an adult and I choose not to go, therefore I will not go, no matter how long their list is, and in spite of all the shaming and guilt tripping.
The older I get, the less I care what other people think. These church guys can take their list and cram it where the sun don’t shine.
I note the some of items on their list – such as ““Recent birth of a child.”” is akin to what Jesus yelled at the Pharisees for: putting burdens on the shoulders of people then refusing to lift a finger to help them.
What is this church doing to make life easier for a woman who has just given birth so she can come to church?
Is the church pastor who wrote this insensitive, stupid, anal retentive post going to go to that woman’s home on Saturday night to wake up at 2 AM to feed the baby?
Then, is he going to stay at her home all day changing the baby diapers and such so that the woman may go to church? Or is he going to take money out of his personal pay check to pay for a nanny to come to that woman’s house to do all that stuff? Is he going to wave a magic wand to give that new mother who is likely exhausted due to birth and infant care to give her instant energy?
If the nim-rod cannot or will not take any of those practical steps to help that woman or the others on his list, he needs to go get bent.
It’s not his place to stick rules on people especially if he is not taking action and concrete steps to assist the people he is badgering
As for me, I prefer to spend my Sunday mornings by sleeping in late, keeping my fuzzy cartoon character jammies on til noon and watching re-runs and movies on cable TV all day.
I believe my time is much better spent that way at this stage in life than waking early, slathering on make-up, wiggling into panty hose and a dress, to shuffle down to a church to hear some blow-hard preacher rattle off his mistaken interpretation of the Bible for 30 minutes or longer.
Based on this doofuses list, I take it that there is NO REASON that is “good enough” for him, not even a sudden death in the family.
I’m sure the weenie even has a come-back for THAT. Such as:
“Well you see, even if your mom drops dead the day before church, I STILL expect to see you at church the next day because (fill in with some stupid, insensitive, idiotic reason here)”
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Yes, he asks for prayer for “humility and christlikeness.” He used these same words in other comments on there, especially answering the women who had issue with being there the first Sunday after giving birth. Eric, I think it’s time to stop making excuses and grow up. You can start by opening back up your comment section and reposting ours on there.
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Kathi, did you read this part of the ‘new infant’ section?
Unless the elders in question are doctors, I don’t think I would be asking for their advice on this.
Also, the stuff about work schedules is silly. His every answer is ‘have you asked the leadership’? As if they have answers to thinks that you haven’t thought of. As if praying for a different schedule because church happens to fall sunday morning is the only godly thing to do. No mention of just going to home group or sunday night or what have you? This guy is not realistic at all. He goes back to the same tired answers for everything ‘god says you have to’ and ‘ask your leadership’.
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Did you read this comment from someone? It’s a rebellious heart that causes you to want any control over your own life!
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Daisy, “What better place to be after the death of a loved one than at the house of God, surrounded by the people of God, worshipping God, hayman?”
The more things change, the more they stay the same. They can rebrand, drop the Baptist outta the name, get a swanky new sign and website, but they’re still the old fundamentalists underneath.
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Lea – The constant “ask the elders for advice” was what prompted me to ask if people were placing too much trust in men or not. If someone is not attending due to the preaching, they are placing too much trust in men. If someone is not able to attend due to work and life issues, then they need to talk to the elders and ask for help. If you don’t like the preaching, then that obviously is not a valid reason to not attend because that’s not the pastor’s fault. Nothing is the pastor’s fault.
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Here are some more reasons not to attend many so called churches:
We ought not to patronize the prostitute daughters of the great whore (organized religion) sitting on many waters.
Neither should we turn over our hard earned money to such prostitutes and their pimps-parading-as-pastors. To do so deprives our own families of what rightly belongs to them.
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If you aren’t attending because you don’t like the preaching, maybe THAT is the time to talk to the elders!
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Kathi and Julie Anne
Sheesch – I go away for a little while…
To shovel out of a snow storm… 😦
And a couple of comments from you two ladies…
Shut down Eric’s… err… Pastor Eric’s post and comments…
I’m-a-gessin… It was because…
Youse guys were NOT…
“…submitting to a visible biblical leadership team (e.g. Heb. 13:17…”
Youse guys were NOT…
…asking your **church leaders
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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Oh – And thanks ALL…
For responding to my call for HELP!!!
I tracked down Nicki Ann on another site…
And replied to her there – NO response back, as of yet.
Here’s that comment.
Hi Nickie Ann
You asked… in our previous conversation…
“AAL: I’d be interested in Eric’s response to your post.”
Well – Seems Eric stopped ALL comments…
And did NOT speak to the tuff qualifications…
And, he did NOT want to answer, 2 ladies..
Who challenged the idea of his post…
And, he deleted their comments… 😦
Then closed the comments…
What does that tell you?
Why? When two ladies challenge his beliefs about church?
Why? When I challenge his beliefs about Qualified leaders?
What is Eric afraid of?
And, Is Eric, “Ignoring” the 17+, very, tuff, Qualifications?
When he says in the 2nd paragraph, when closing comments…
“An existing qualified plurality of elders puts in place
other leaders as per 1 Tim 3:1-7, Titus 1:6-9, and 1 Pet 5:1-5.”
But, do you know many, any, qualified elders?
As per 1 Tim 3:1-7? Titus 1:6-9? and 1 Pet 5:1-5?
Now that you have some idea how tuff they are?
Should elders be required to meet these tuff standards?
Or “Ignore” them?
Thanks for the conversation…
Be Blessed… And continue to be a Blessing…
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
.
.
.
.
.
And – A challenge for you, Nickie…
Google “Heb 13:17 and Spiritual Abuse.”
See what others have to say… 😉
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Boston Lady
@ JANUARY 8, 2017 @ 2:10 AM
👍🏿… You rock…
Rock on… 😇
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Hi Gary W
Please…
Tell WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
How you really feel…😎
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A. Amos Love,
And you, eloquent poet, you. 🙂 Write on, rock on, won’t you?
I don’t have a good “feeling” about our friend Nicki, but you are asking her the right things and in the right tone and spirit. Let’s hope she thinks for herself, although thinking for oneself may induce a coma of sorts at times.
Julie Anne and Kathi,
Davis’ twitter reply seems off. Where is the focus in his tweet? Or rather, on whom? Nah, call me the eternal sceptic, but it seems rather hollow and made-up for the occasion. I have heard those kinds of responses before…when one has been caught out, for instance, or when one is being put on the spot. Sounds like a politician wrote it. In a hurry. To please, hoping the opposition silently goes away. Yawn.
In any case, SSB is continuing to be an oasis for the ones who need it. Praise God.
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Amos said:
Amos,
I believe there were any number of reasons why we were shut down.
1) We did not ask permission from our husbands to post on another pastor’s blog. (Isn’t that right, Kathi?)
2) Maybe Eric believes that only “heads of homes” should be engaging in spiritual conversations with church leaders
3) We’re women. Women should be seen and not heard.
4) He’s married and shouldn’t be conversing with women to avoid the appearance of evil.
5) We are evil women.
6) High-controlling pastors are always right.
7) High-controlling pastors cannot admit when they are wrong. (Note the tweet says nothing about him being wrong.)
8) High-controlling pastors always get the last word.
9) Did I mention we are mean and nasty women?
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Julie Anne – When my husband saw your tweet he asked (not verbatim),”What have you gone and done now?” Then he knew I would be up late. And, yes, I was up late and up early because my mind was spinning. Does that mean I was using my masculine side of me because I was thinking?
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I don’t know, Kathi. Are you wanting me to respond as Piper would or as JA?
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Rhetorical question. Whew! You’re off the hook!
BTW- I can’t wait to dig into those by-laws and think critically.
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Kathi, you may probably want to drink critically afterwards…be warned. It’s just the tip…of an iceberg.
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If God had wanted all of us to attend one local church, he would have made only one.
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When ideas cannot stand up to an open dialog, that tells me the ideas have no merit. The responses were well thought out and the fact they were shut down and removed tells me all I need to know.
The days when I would allow myself to be shamed by the shameless are long done.
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Surprise, surprise….the Cripplegaters are Neo-Calvinists. “Cripple”gate – how apropos. Time and time again it has been proven that Neo-Calvinists do not want to have discussions with the pew peons. Whenever the comments disagree with their narrative, it’s time to shut down the comments. If this is how they run their churches, no wonder they are writing articles missing church. No doubt, there are folks within their congregation who are getting fed up with being mistreated. Consider this, pastors: Maybe, just maybe the 9Marxist model is failing. Being required to sign membership contracts….er….covenants, in order to receive concern from the pastor/leaders, discipline, discipline and more discipline. When discipline for sin isn’t really spelled out until, lo and behold – one finds themselves in hot water because they disagreed with a point in the sermon, or their marriage isn’t considered Complementarian enough for the elders, or you question YEC (Young Earth Creationism), or you fail to report to your group leader why you didn’t attend a meeting, or you tithe the way the leaders think you should be tithing, or you leave your abusive husband without the elders approval, or…..feel free to add to the list. And they wonder why people are missing church??? Clueless.
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Darlene, I looked on The Master’s Seminary website where they introduced Cripplegate and included this:
Was that article edifying and encouraging? You can see a video of how it started here, too: https://www.tms.edu/news/what-is-the-cripplegate/
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“if we are concerned about our infant getting sick, we could ask our elders for suggestions for that, too.”
What hubris these Neo-Calvinist pastors have. When your child is sick and you’re up all night taking care of them, then you’re too tired to do much of anything the next day. What is wrong with these knuckleheads? And there’s no way, no how that a mother should ask elders for suggestions on how to cope with a sick child. Whatever happened to trusting one’s motherly instincts? I thought these guys stress gender roles and mothering as being the highest calling for a woman. If that is so, then why should a mother ask suggestions from an elder, when she already has a God-given innate ability to know what she should do. It seems Neo-Cals want to exert control over every area of their member’s lives.
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Julie Anne, I never heard of Cripplegate until I read this your article this evening. As far as I’m concerned, it’s just another site that plays by the Neo-Calvinist playbook. They’re all cookie cutter cut-outs of one another. Pretty much if you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all. Stepford pastors here we come! 🙂
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Okay, I meandered over to their blog site and the first thing I read under “Cripplegate” was: “for a new generation of non-conformists.” Now, talk about not being self-aware. 9Marxist churches are the epitome of Conformist Christianity, which by the way, has nothing to do with genuine unity in Christ.
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I wonder if these “pastors” , former “pastors” and other leader wannabes ever stop to consider just how drop dead stupid and cowardly they look when they delete comments that conflict with their agenda. For one it gives serious focus to there not being much to their position if it can’t withstand review by other believers. It also makes me think, WOW what a bunch of pansy boys. They can’t even handle people having a different view on something. It’s like they think they are the sole source of truth.
You know many of the men I do business with don’t attend church at all anymore. Many of my male friends have tossed it completely too. The reason most give: church guys are so effeminate acting. One guy recently told me, ” you are the first guy I have met that goes to church (I still attend a few services a month, hanging on by a thread) that I don’t suspect of being a fag”. I believe these pansy pastors that can’t handle opposing views are 100% the causation of this. They have created this environment that is very emasculating. No one can disagree with the pastor. Everyone should do whatever leadership requires bla bla bla
Frankly most men I know won’t tolerate that kind of environment very long. You are then left with the real weak men and the church then attracts more weak men.
Recently I was asked why I haven’t joined one of the churches I attend occasionally. I said, what do you mean like become a member ? Well, yeah. I said, no offense pastor but I would never join this church. I have a real hard time being around such effeminate men. The conversation ended quickly.
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Anonymous2: “If God had wanted all of us to attend one local church, he would have made only one.”
This seems like dangerous thinking to me. The “problem of evil” is essentially that if God didn’t want sin to exist, he would have disallowed it. Yet sin exists, therefore God must want sin to exist (he’s not good) or be powerless to stop it (he’s not omnipotent).
God wants us to be united in him, yet, there is sin and people disagree about what the Bible says, and how important certain doctrines are. So, there are divisions. Beyond that, I left my last church, not because of the doctrine as much as the abusive tactics of the leadership – the equivalent of what we see here. Silencing opposition, not through reason and love, but by abusive silencing tactics.
On that note, I reread the Parable of the Tares recently. “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.””
I think this is a different perspective. God allows sin and evil people because of his care for his children and his desire to bring his children to himself. I had never thought of things in those terms before. I was taught that God raised evil people so that he could bring himself glory by squashing them in perfect wrath.
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= Conform to our non-conformity! Here is a list of rules in how to be a non-conformist.
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“This seems like dangerous thinking to me.”
Mark,
I’m with you on that one. There’s a lot of different parts to the body of Christ—the Dones, the home fellowship people, the people who attend a brick and mortar church, etc.
Each part can’t say to the other parts “I have no need of you.”
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” (1Cor 12:21 (NIV)
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Mark, lighten up. It’s a joke.
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Sorry, I can’t generally tell tone in comments. 🙂
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From Eric’s comment….
Maybe you’ve ‘known some who do and some who don’t’ because childbirth can be more taxing on some than others, there is a difference between the effect of natural and c section on the health of the mother, some babies need more time in the hospital, etc…
Dude. Back off.
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When one deletes comments which are designed to make individuals “think,” they are removed from those who deem themselves “all knowing.” Is it possible the “hierarchy” actually desires that people not think for themselves, for they are easier to manipulate, control, and lord it over? Then in their self perceived and self conceived leadership role, play the “humility” card as an excuse to close the discussion, in keeping with the theme “unity.”
I have seen all of this before, literally played out in the Christian religious industrial complex where “unity” has nothing to do with the lower laity dogs, and EVERYTHING to do with leadership, leadership, and more and more of leadership.
Will ask this until the cows come home….”What exactly, is religious leadership AFRAID of?”
JESUS?
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Having been through both, the current (as of 8 years ago advice) was to avoid activity for about two weeks – doctor visits was just about it. After that, still shouldn’t be carrying more than the baby’s weight for another two weeks.
The doctor stressed that many women ignore this advice because they ‘feel ok’ and that there are significant long-term health issues from ramping up activity too soon after birth.
So, in essence, the “some who do and some who don’t” are those who are ignoring their doctor’s advice vs. those who aren’t. Which should the church be praising?
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RE : Eric Davis…
Thanks for reminding me why I left church (The building)
What a bunch of manipulation and control. (And indirects)
Who do these guys think they are?
I love when after they tell you what you are supposed to do,(holier than thou), they display this false humility (“I know I need to do that”)
It’s a man centered religion.
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Folk like Eric do more harm to the cause of Christ than any good. But they are so arrogant that you could never convince them of that. i hate and yes I mean hate the way these guys treat women. It is despicable.
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Scott, you are right that by silencing opposing views, the pastors can create an environment where the men feel emasculated. In one church I attended, the pastor trainee was a young single man who would repeat the pastor’s directives verbatim to me on social visits during the brief time we were sort of dating (including the admonition that women should wear long skirts). A total yes man who waited hand and foot on the pastor’s every desire in order to earn his ordination card to secure a paid position in the denomination. (He was unemployed, living with his dad, not into hard work, and, yes, exhibited effeminate mannerisms.) I quickly lost interest in him, and when I started missing church, he reprimanded me on a visit to my house. Last I heard, he got married and is pastoring his own church. Yikes!
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Stephanie,
Yikes indeed! In the last abusive church I attended ( a conservative Baptist church), a young man share with me that a “woman who dresses provocatively is just asking to be raped.” In essence, it is the woman’s fault if she is raped due to some fault of her own, not withstanding the moral boundaries of the man (anotherwords, man does not claim responsibility for his actions and women are always to blame.)
I know all too well the “YIKES” teachings of the harlot church system and they are not the Ways of Jesus, but of worshiping man. It seems to me that Christianity has been recreated or ‘reborn’ to worship men, instead of Christ Jesus. And to date, I have not seen the Name of Jesus on any 501c. 3 church sign where it says:
Pastor: JESUS, the Christ
A man or woman’s name surpasses Jesus as the ‘shepherd’ of every denominational system.
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“We ought not to patronize the prostitute daughters of the great whore (organized religion) sitting on many waters.
Neither should we turn over our hard earned money to such prostitutes and their pimps-parading-as-pastors. To do so deprives our own families of what rightly belongs to them.”
When I left the Christian industrial complex, part of the process for me to deal with what I saw and the abuse I experienced was to make a list of every red flag and my responsibility for them. Yes, they are cons. But the con won’t work without lots of people supporting it or turning a blind eye.
The best place to start on the list is money. The budget. If I cannot see a detailed budget before I join, why would I join at all? There is no need for secrecy of such in the Body of Christ.
My list of red flags is long and goes on from there. Many would disagree with most of them. Especially the one where I list I did not know Christ as well as I thought or I would have questioned more obvious things sooner.
But I saw the list as crucial for my children. They needed to know that mature adults take responsibility for their very bad decisions and what they support. We can all be conned by the master con men. We give them our trust. . Especially the ones who use Jesus as a beard. The question is, how do we respond to it? And what do we learn from it? It will be a cold day in hell before I ever trust an institutional church again with money and allegiance. Jesus Christ is nothing like those places. An in depth and consistent reading of the Gospels within their historical context should prove that.
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Lydia00
Yes we didn’t know Jesus Christ as we ought to have. Thankful that our eyes were opened. All the abuse my family endured taught my kids what church the institution is all about.
It took may years to recover from it all, and after visiting other churches with their own version of manipulation and control.they are probably turned off forever. On thing they have is discernment. They can spot a phone immediately, so they will never be taken, it’s a valuable gift.
What do you mean when you say to read the gospels in historically context? I ask because I have realized that much of what has been applied to the church was not meant for us living in this dispensation of grace.
Anyway, so thankful for blogs such as this where one does not have to be alone, after they are shown the door for speaking out in truth.
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We have a real problem in the church with the “hirelings” who want the pastor salary without doing the work of the ministry.
“A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don’t belong to him and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. The hired hand runs away because he’s working only for the money and doesn’t really care about the sheep.”
John 10:12-13 (NLT)
However, the existence of wolves in the church and the need for us to avoid giving them our hard earned money doesn’t eliminate the existence of real ministers who are doing the real work of the ministry.
Case in point—Barbara Roberts and Pastor Jeff Crippen
Barbara does a tremendous amount of work without getting paid for it. I don’t know how she does it—but I admire her heart for people.
Then while we are on the subject—does anyone object to Pastor Jeff receiving a salary from his church?
Does being a 501(c) 3 make Pastor Jeff’s church the whore of Babylon?
Is it a sin for good pastors to receive tithes?
Of course not—without the tithe people like Pastor Jeff would have to take a regular job, which would eliminate the time he spends counseling victims of abuse for free.
While I agree we need to be careful with our giving—each of us have a responsibility to contribute towards the spread of the Gospel.
Jesus established a principal when He sent out the seventy to preach the Gospel. First of all some of those seventy could have been women—the Bible never said it was seventy men and we can’t add anything or take anything away from the Bible.
Jesus gave these instructions to the seventy
“Don’t take any money with you……Don’t hesitate to accept hospitality, because THOSE WHO WORK DESERVE THEIR PAY.” (Luke 10:5 & 7 (NLT)
People who are doing the work of the ministry “deserve their pay.” The Apostle Paul echoes this principal in 1Timothy 5:17-18) We get to choose who we believe is doing the work of the ministry to support. But we have to be really careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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“What do you mean when you say to read the gospels in historically context? ”
Have you ever noticed how churchy people and pastors will use bits and pieces from Matthew, for example, to excuse horrible behavior from another “Christian”. They will tell you to turn the other cheek, instantly forgive, etc. (This is just ONE example of many)
So do they really believe that Jesus Christ was teaching the Jews in Matthew 5 to go around slapping each other and they had to just perpetually forgive the assaults? Does this make sense?
The historical context shows us that Jesus Christ was speaking to Jews who were oppressed under the Roman occupation and furious about it. He was teaching them how to be the light of the world to the pagans who were in control. (The Jews were supposed to be the light of the world way back to Abraham)
He also had some very harsh words for the Jewish religious leaders of his own tribe for how they treated their own people. Jesus Christ was not giving them permission to go around slapping each other and then receiving instant forgiveness. But sadly, that is how many Christians have been taught. It is putting Jesus in the category of teaching cheap grace and condoning abusive treatment.
If Christians are perpetually doing wrong things to one another such as deceiving or manipulating others, they are the ones with the problem that must be addressed. But most have been taught that is the normal. And they do it by taking scripture out of this historical context to beat people up with cheap grace and instant forgiveness for willful and purposeful actions against others.
There are a zillion examples of this problem. and the first to trot out the proof texts are the “religious leaders” of OUR time. I do believe that many of them mirror the corrupt Priests of the Old Testament. Or they are willfully ignorant?
This is why I love the fact that Jesus Christ makes those who do His will, priests, in the Holy Priesthood of believer.
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Lydia,
That’s a great point.
Jesus Himself didn’t turn the other cheek when He was slapped by the temple guard in John 18:23 (NLT). He confronted the guard.
Jesus replied, “If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But if I’m speaking the truth, why are you beating me?”
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You know, I can understand and accept that we might have to be ‘light of the world’ door mats to barbarian cons at some point but to supposedly fellow Christians? I think not. They need to be exposed for what they chose to be.
Besides, there was no concept of individual rights in the first century caste system. There are people out there who use that now to insist such rights are unchristian.( Patruarchy is one such example) Because such individual rights are not expressed in scripture! . I happen to believe the opposite. And I believe truth and justice are in there. I believe truth and justice ARE a part of “love”. Not excusing the evil behavior of so called Christians.
If we can’t trust fellow Christians, then what was the point of it all? God coming as a lowly human, His modeling of living here, the Cross, Resurrection…All of it. What was the point? A get out of hell free card?
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Avid Reader
Oy Vey – “tithes.” – A pet peeve if ever there was one. 🙂
You ask @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 7:45 AM…
“Is it a sin for good pastors to receive tithes?”
Well, In the NT, did any of His Disciples “receive” tithes?
Hmmm? In the NT, did any of His Disciples “give” tithes?
If, in the Bible, His Disciples did NOT “receive” tithes?
Or, “give” tithes?
Why should WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, “receive,” or “give” tithes?
“Tithe,” just means, one tenth. Or, ten percent. Or, 10%.
In the OT, or NT, did anyone ever “tithe” silver, gold, or MONEY?
From wages?
Best I can figure, the “Tithe” was always food, agricultural…
To be eaten – and or sacrificed to God. – Burnt-up…
When was the last time you saw a Benjamin, a $50 bill…
Burnt-up, on an Alter?
The “Tithe,” in the Bible, was NEVER, silver, gold or MONEY.
From wages.
Except once… Gen 14:17-20. 😉
When Abraham gave a tithe, once, of the spoils of war, to Melchisedec…
After slautering a bunch of kings. And taking “The Spoils of War.”
And Abraham only gave that “tithe” once. 😉
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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Leviticus 27:30-34 KJV
And all the tithe of the land, whether of “the seed” of the land,
or of “the fruit” of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD…
32 And concerning the tithe of “the herd,” or of “the flock,” even of whatsoever
passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD…
34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel…
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“ Tithes?” Hmmm? AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH… 🙂
In the OT you can find a “Tithe” for “You and Your family” to EAT?
And Rejoice.
That You and Your family may learn to fear the LORD thy God, always.
Yeah, A “Tithe” that belongs to You and Your family. Go figure… 😉
Yes – “Pastors need to preach unashamedly about this Tithe.
Deuteronomy 14:22-26 KJV (And Deut 12.)
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed,
that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou (You)* shalt EAT before the LORD thy God,
in the place which he shall choose to place his name there,
**the tithe of thy (Your) corn, of (Your)* wine, and of thine **(Your) oil,
and the firstlings of thy (Your) herds and of thy (Your) flocks;
(NOPE – NO silver, gold, or money.)
that thou (You) mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it;
or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose
to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into Money, and bind up the money in thine hand,
and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy (YOUR) soul lusteth after,
for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink,
or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: (NOPE – NO silver, gold, or money.)
and thou (YOU) shalt EAT there before the LORD thy God,
and thou (YOU) shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, 🙂 🙂 🙂
Yeah, “…bestow that money for whatsoever thy (YOUR) soul lusteth after, “
What are the chances…
These verses will be preached from the pulpit? Today? 🙂
Jer 50:6
My people hath been lost sheep
THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Any pastor…
Who says you are to give 10% of your income – TO GOD
Don’t worry – GOD is NOT gonna get any of it… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Any pastor…
Who says you are to give 10% of your income – TO THIS CHURCH
The House of God.
Just send it to me…
Seems,In the Bible, ME, Amos, I now be The House of God.
I now be The Temple of The Holy Spirit.
Any pastor…
Who says you are to give 10% of your income – to the pastor, the man of God.
A priest taking “Tithes” of the people…
Run… Run for your life… You are in the process of being conned, deceived…
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Some great conversation here!
I think you have to read Matthew from the context of who was being spoken to.
This was for the Jews under the law. It doesn’t apply to the church.
just as Malachi doesn’t apply to us. It’s not our book.
We can learn historically from it though.
The tithe was for Israel. Yes, there were three…well it’s a hot topic!!!
God’s program for us is in Paul’s epistles. Paul never mentioned the tithe.
It was an ordinance that was fulfilled with Jesus died in the cross ( I’m Jewish by the way).
Have you wondered why there is no tithe in the synagogues today.
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Amos,
I know this issue is close to your heart so I’ll tread carefully here.
What I appreciate most about the thoughts you share is that you try bring the focus back to Christ.
So let’s look at how Jesus treated this whole subject.
#1—First of all, I agree with you that OT laws don’t apply to the NT covenant so we could have a fascinating discussion over when the OT law ended and the NT covenant began.
To answer that question, once again we turn to Christ.
Jesus said the law and prophets WERE UNTIL John the Baptist then the Gospel was preached. Notice John’s ministry focus was on repentance and John preached that Jesus took away the sins of the world—that’s the Gospel.
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.”
Luke 16:16 (BSB)
#2—Jesus directly advocated tithing in Matthew 23:23
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law–justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.”
There’s a misconception that Jesus’ words here only apply to people living under the OT, and only Paul’s writings apply to us today.
But remember—we are supposed to build our lives on the WORDS OF CHRIST
NOT THE WORDS OF PAUL!!! (Matt 7:24-27)
Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” John 14:15 (BSB)
#3—Jesus distinguished between what belongs to God and what belongs to civil government.
In Mark 12, the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus by asking if they had to pay taxes.
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.” Mark 12:17 (ERV)
There’s another misconception in the church that everything we have belongs to God. Here Jesus is making the point that we have a responsibility both to pay taxes and give back to God what belongs to God, thus implying that part of what we have doesn’t belong to us.
#4—Jesus received donations from people
The three wise men brought gold at Jesus’ birth—that money probably helped Joseph obey the command to flee from King Herod.
When Jesus and the disciples were traveling around for three years—that cost money. There were powerful women giving that money to Jesus.
“Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.”
Luke 8:3(NLT)
#5—Jesus sent out the seventy, establishing the principle that those doing the work of the ministry could their living from it.
“Don’t take any money with you……because THOSE WHO WORK DESERVE THEIR PAY.” Luke 10:5 & 7 (NLT)
#6—The Apostle Paul writes a whole chapter (1Cor 9) confirming that ministry workers can be paid.
“In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.” 1Cor 9:14 (NIV)
#7—Jesus established the five fold ministries.
“And THAT SAME CHRIST gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.” Eph 4:11(ERV)
“There are different ministries, but the same Lord.” 1Cor 12:5(HSCB)
“If each part of the body were the same part, there would be no body. But as it is, God put the parts in the body as he wanted them. He made a place for each one.”
1Cor 12:18 (ERV)
Amos,
The whole reason I spoke up is because it really bothers me when you put good pastors like Pastor Jeff in the same category with wolves and con artists just because they receive tithes!
I don’t mean to keep bringing up the same pastor over and over, but every time you slam all pastors, you’re attacking and discrediting the work of good people who don’t deserve that kind of attack.
Can we please get back to exposing the wolves in the church and not keep attacking the people pouring out their lives for others?
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Hi Hannah, I have a different take on law/grace but it is too involved to get into here. Most people err too far, either way.
When I comment on Christian blogs I should make it clear I’m not talking about law/Grace but basic right/wrong and good/evil. I do believe the law/grace arguments are a distraction from the basics that applied to everyone from OT and today. I don’t do “dispensations” or ‘covenants’ unless that’s the topic as there are way too many doctrines out there on each and it’s a rabbit hole. :o)
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Avid, it is interesting to study OT tithe system. It’s actually about 23% of whatever they harvested, etc. poor people were exempt because part of the percentage went to help them!
When Jesus had Peter pay the Temple tax, He said, the sons are free. We think that means Christians but it actually meant the Romans who did not pay the tax. The Jews collected the temple tax and gave it to the Romans for Temple upkeep. Graft included. It was more like.a municiple tax. Jesus is basically staying we have no need for a temple to pay for but let’s not offend. Jesus was not real into the Temple at all. It it had been important, JTB would not have been chosen as the last prophet. He was extremely against the Temple set.
Just because there is no tithe today should not be offensive. People have the choice to give or not. But it is not the same system as the tithe system of a theocracy. Paul kept bringing up the offering about the saints in Jerusalem because they were suffering persecution. He brings it up in several places. Paul made tents to not be a burden. And think of this, as a Pharisee, he was supported by the tithe system.
I do think you have misunderstood the passage about paying ministry workers. In the NT, these were people who traveled around and their pay would be hospitality and funds for travel. Most offering was given to people in need. Not a salary for a pastor or elder. They also display not have tax free housing allowance, etc. it’s a different system because we don’t have a temple or priests to support. The Levites were not even allowed to own property because of the tithe system of the OT.
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Lydia,
I hope we can agree to disagree.
There’s a whole lot more Scriptures to explore on this topic but I don’t want to derail this thread.
All I want is to see each part of the body of Christ utilizing their gifts and talents—fulfilling their callings without ripping each other apart.
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Lydia
I don’t have the time that I used to when I was on other blogs, where after several years, you got to know everyone and their position on everything!…not sure what you mean about making a distinction, but I will oblige on discontinuing the discussion.
What I have come to understand is that not every book in the Bible is for us (the church that is). It has helped me fill in a lot of gray holes…blessings!
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Oh…just to break down your 23% OT tithe..
There were 3 tithes. This was a taxation system for Israel. It was not freewill giving.
Giving to God has always been freewill…It is in Deuteronomy
Levitical- 10% of the GROSS goes to the government, The Levites were the Priests and could not own land and could not have income. So this went to them to keep up the temple. They had no source of income. How many Pastors own a home or land? They are NOT the Priests in the OT!
Festival tithe- 10% off all your increase (NET)This was what helped the people get to the temple (it was costly-they had to take time to travel, etc) to celebrate the festivals- 3 times a year- Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. YOU eat and enjoy this tithe. You are supposed to est corn, wine, oil, and STRONG DRINK! Have you ever heard this preached??
Welfare tithe-every 3rd year this was collected. You dont give it to the government but give it to those in need.
I learn much from Pastor Richard Jordan on Youtube. He has a few teachings on the subject.
Unfortunately, many do not want to investigate these truths.
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on the welfare tithe it was 10% every third year. So this made the annual tithe 23.3%.
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IT was probably just grape juice /baptist logic.
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Hannah,
Its a really big jump in logic to say that because the Levitical priests didn’t own land therefore pastors can’t own their own home. There’s a lot of home ownership verses in the Bible which aren’t limited to just the lay people.
I understand that this not your personal opinion but something that is being taught by someone else. I’m just suggesting that we dig deeper on it.
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“Its a really big jump in logic to say that because the Levitical priests didn’t own land therefore pastors can’t own their own home. There’s a lot of home ownership verses in the Bible which aren’t limited to just the lay people.”
You mentioned the “tithe”. I assumed you were referring to that. Anyone is free to give to the institution and support a ministry worker. But it is not tithing. I used to know why only 10℅ is taught and it’s origination but I forgot. And frankly, many churches/denominations used to provide a home/parsonage in that same Levite tradition. The Anglican bishop in my city has a residence provided. As do most Catholic priests. The housing allowance became a better deal for pastors. But back then most were not paid much. The typical 500 person church in my city pays the pastor around 50-80 thou a year plus housing allowance.
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“I understand that this not your personal opinion but something that is being taught by someone else. I’m just suggesting that we dig deeper on it.”
I wish I had kept a bibliography. There is a ton out there. Mostly by Ancients scholars who have dissected the OT and other ancient writings. It is not a popular subject for pastors or even seminaries to promote for digging deeper. I don’t trust their proof text interpretations either. :o)
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Most likely you’re all familiar with the story of David Wilkerson. For those that aren’t familiar here’s the brief cliff notes version.
David Wilkerson was pastoring a small rural church in Pennsylvania when he was reading the newspaper one day about a story about the gangs of New York City. The Lord spoke to him to go to New York City and minister to those gang members.
So once a week on his day off he would drive out there and spend the day walking the streets and praying for guidance on how to proceed. So finally he works up the courage to start preaching on the streets to anyone who will listen while developing relationships.
My favorite part of the book is when he decides to hold an evangelistic rally, invites rival gang members and then tries to preach to them while they’re fidgeting like crazy. Everything is going wrong or so it feels like to him so he finally gives up, stops preaching and starts praying and asks the Holy Spirit to touch hearts. While his eyes are still closed, he starts to hear sniffling as the Holy Spirit begins to sweep across the auditorium, drawing people to the Lord.
That’s the story of the Cross and the Switchblade—lot of people came to Christ and Wilkerson started Teen Challenge which has helped even more people.
Here’s the thing—at the very beginning of the story, Wilkerson has to ask his home church congregation for gas money to drive to New York. He wouldn’t have been able to do all that if he didn’t have the money to get there. Plus once he started going more than once a week there were costs for a place to stay and to rent the auditorium and he has to rent buses to bring the gang members because it would have been dangerous for them to cross rival territories to get to the meeting.
That’s what I was thinking about when reading that comment this morning which accused all pastors of supposedly being con men if they ask for the tithe.
That comment deeply grieved my spirit because that type of mentality in the church eliminates the resources for people to fulfill the call of God in their lives and to get the Gospel to those who need it most.
We could argue over Scripture all day long but at the end of the day, God will hold us accountable for whether we each contributed towards the spread of the Gospel.
Now we could go further on this if you want, but maybe its better for us to move to a different topic. Please understand that while this topic can get really intense, I’m not trying to attack anyone or make them feel disrespected, I’m just concerned about the big picture.
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“We could argue over Scripture all day long but at the end of the day, God will hold us accountable for whether we each contributed towards the spread of the Gospel.”
Very familiar with Wilkerson and his beginnings. And grateful. My take is we are all held accountable for spreading the Good News and living it out, too. I don’t view it as a job for those with Christian titles. I think many “pastor” without the tile as I view it as a verb.
An arguement could be made that some just give money and check the box. I think everyone is free to operate and how they approach it is none of my business. People are free to make choices. I do enjoy discussing beliefs and practices. . You seemed offended that some might not be enamoured with the institutional approach. I understand that but don’t feel guilty about my position. I grew up around great pastors and have no doubt there are many out there we won’t hear about on this side. I have a hunch, though, that more real awakening is going to take place outside the institutions.
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Lydia,
I don’t want to make you feel guilty. What is done in guilt isn’t done for Christ.
To answer your question about
“You seemed offended that some might not be enamoured with the institutional approach.”
That’s not at all what I was saying. There’s a lot of real pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc who don’t wear a collar or preach from a pulpit but are doing the work of the ministry. I wish people like Barbara Roberts were getting a salary for all the ministry work that they do.
The principle is that people actually doing the work of the ministry deserve to obtain their living from that—that principle applies both inside and outside the institutional church. Brother Andrew is a great example of someone who labored as an apostle behind the Iron Curtain—ministering to the persecuted church outside of the institutional system.
Lottie Moon was an evangelist that disobeyed her “covering” when she went to China as a missionary and the organization that sent her told her to just focus on teaching at a girls school. Lottie quit that job and actually went out to preach the Gospel.
Then we could talk about the history of women’s missionary organizations that were started because the institutional church wasn’t doing its job to get the Gospel out. The women raised their own funds, selected their own team and sent out many people who did a powerful work for God.
There’s a lot of different parts of the body of Christ. I’m grieved when one part starts ripping apart another part of the body.
I’m grieved when someone labels all pastors—including people like David Wilkerson—as con artists just because he asked for some gas money to go to New York City and minister to some really hurting people. What could possibly be wrong with him providing for his wife and children and putting gas in his car while he was answering the call of God to go and do ministry in New York?
I’m grieved when the harvest is big and the laborers are few and those few aren’t getting the resources that they need.
“For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10:13-14 (HSCB)
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Avid, I think all believers are “called” and are ministers. I believe all can develop their gifting. What you call a “five fold” ministry, I see as gifts developed by anyone. My take is that there were most likely several “pastoring”, for example, in the early church. And unpaid to do so. I don’t see the gifts as static.
People are free to support anyone they want. I know many who support independent missionaries in third world countries. So I am not sure what you are so upset about? You are free to support anyone as are others here.
I am always a bit leary of the idea that people in civilized Western countries have never heard of Jesus. We are way past the 1st Century in terms of literacy, communication and travel. Even the Muslims here use the Name of Jesus to recruit. Perhaps, the real issue is people have not seen Him modeled much by Christians. Most, not all, pastors are recruiting to maintain an institution. Institutions need money to maintain themselves. That is just the way it works for good or bad. But that is also a problem for people who are broke. One can’t afford to alienate donors but some, like single mothers, cant help pay. Even many older people who have lost jobs and homes in this horrible economy are finding it hard to support their families.
Perhaps many will read you here and support work they find crucial to the Body. I admire your passion but not sure why the tithe, which no longer exists, and institution are crucial to what you are advocating. Unless for tax purposes?
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Do they ‘deserve’ it, or is it a great blessing when people decide to support them? That’s where I see the distinction. And I don’t think tithing and giving an offering are necessarily the same thing. You can tithe, or you can give to specific people for specific missions. It’s just a different way of thinking about it.
When you talk about what the pastor deserves, it turns sometimes into the pastor deserves not just a living but a comfortable one. And to support his family. And someone to clean his house and mow his yard and so on and so forth…why does he deserve that and I don’t? That’s how it comes off as a parishioner.
So if someone has a wonderful ministry, I may support, not because they ‘deserve’ it, but because they are doing a good work. Deserve turns into entitlement.
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“Its a really big jump in logic to say that because the Levitical priests didn’t own land therefore pastors can’t own their own home. There’s a lot of home ownership verses in the Bible which aren’t limited to just the lay people.
I understand that this not your personal opinion but something that is being taught by someone else. I’m just suggesting that we dig deeper on it.”
I want to be respectful to you, because I don’t know you and I rarely comment on this blog because I don’t have the time that I used to.
I have dug very deep on this issue for many reasons.
When you say it is not my “personal opinion” but what someone else taught me” , you are right. I was taught this by the scriptures by God HImself!
And I am confident that the “tithe” does not apply to the church, just as the church has not replaced Israel.
The OT is not the basis for anything that applies to the “church” today.
Giving to God was always freewill giving..then and now.
As a reference, you can read Exodus 35:29 and compare it to 2 Corinthians 9:7
That is what the churches should be teaching about giving in this church age.
Giving to God is never obligatory, and pressured.
The OT tithe was to the 1- government, to 2- ourselves, and to 3-others.
What we give to the church today is NOT the tithe.
I am not our to change anyone’s mind.
I do hope you dig deeper.
If we want to be under the law, we have to follow ALL the Mosaic laws and ordinances.
If we are under the law, we are under a curse.
We have been freed from the law in Christ!
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This is a topic that we all have strong feelings about. Please understand that I’m treading carefully here because I don’t want to minimize the deep pain that some people have experienced in the church.
I’ve tried to choose my words carefully to be join the discussion while still being sensitive to real deep pain that has been caused by wolves in the church and others who twisted Scriptures to line their own pockets.
When wolves come in the church, the very first thing that they go after is the tithe. There’s been a real problem in the church with the wolves having the platform to pressure God’s people into giving more than they should and that has caused a lot of damage.
However, the existence of wolves in the church hasn’t eliminated the existence of good people in the church pouring out their lives for others.
Now let me respond to a few points.
Lea,
Maybe I didn’t use the best wording. We all agree that entitlement mentality is wrong. By no means would I suggest that the pastor is entitled to having someone cut his grass.
My point is that when you work fifty hours a week, you deserve a salary. Your hard work has earned the salary. Some missionary laboring for that same fifty hours in a foreign country also has earned a salary. Here’s the thing, the person that’s called to be a paramedic and works fifty hours a week, doesn’t have as much time to do ministry work as a missionary who’s full time in the field.
While that paramedic can still spread the Gospel within their personal circle, fulfilling their work responsibilities limits their personal time. The person that’s called by God to be a homemaker and raise three kids also doesn’t have as much time for ministry as someone who is single and full time in the field. Yes, we are all called to contribute towards the spread of the Gospel, but realistically, a mother raising small children can’t just move across the world and become a missionary that easily. God calls some people to be missionaries and some people to be homemakers. Both callings are just as important but there’s a real need for full time ministers that can’t be fulfilled without them.
Of course, everyone is in a different place in life. I’m not trying to burden people that are struggling under a difficult economy. Jesus admired the widow for giving more than anyone else because she gave from what she had. God holds us accountable for what we do with what we have not what we don’t have. I agree that we all have the freedom to choose which ministries/missionaries/etc to support that we believe have earned that salary.
Lydia,
I agree with you that all believers are called. God has put different gifts inside of us and expects us to develop them. But like we were discussing earlier, the person who’s called by God to be a kindergarden teacher, isn’t going to have as much time to do the work of the ministry as someone who’s full time in the field.
I was just reading the biography of Gladys Aylward who worked as a maid to save up enough money to go to China as a missionary. She did this completely outside of the institutional system. So she gets to China and joins another lady who is already there.
She rescued a lot of children from the streets, starting an orphanage and taking care of them.
The best part of the story was when she was traveling around, sharing the Gospel with the villagers. At one point she’s been walking for several days to get to the next village and is exhausted and tired when she sees a couple monks waving eagerly at her. They greeted her so enthusiastically that she was wondering why until they explained that they had been waiting for someone to come and tell them about Jesus.
Apparently they had obtained a copy of the Gospels and all come to Christ. They had been praying that God would send someone to them to teach them more. So she stayed with them for weeks and taught them about the Lord.
Then comes the war and she gets kicked out of the country. So she goes back to England and starts sharing the Gospel there. One day the Lord tells her to visit the insane asylum. There she finds a Chinese lady who was perfectly normal but had been put there through a cultural misunderstanding because she couldn’t speak English.
Gladys speaks Chinese to her and helps get her released from the asylum. Long story short that lady went back to her village and brought the whole village to Christ.
The biography of Gladys was fascinating because it showed how God could move through one woman who obeyed God’s call to go full time.
There are a lot of other Gladys Alywards out there who are also called by God to do mighty things. Let’s not stand in their way.
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I love this story you shared, but it sort of illustrates the exact point I was making. She felt that it was something she should do and she earned the money herself to do it! I don’t think you deserve a salary just because you are doing work. That’s not to say I’m opposed to it either. A salary is a thing that you may or may not get. I could do labor for 50 hours a week, but if I haven’t contracted with an employer, or sold my labor freelance, I wont’ get a salary. Deserve has nothing to do with it.
I also think you can witness through your every day life in as productive a way or moreso than many people being paid. That housewife could be a witness through her life without being a missionary. I think sometimes we are too wedded to this idea that people have to be paid to do these things when they can be living their lives, working regular jobs, with their lives serving as a witness.
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I hope that story of Gladys Alyward would encourage us women to take initiative to fulfill God’s call on our lives without waiting for permission from anyone.
Gladys was actually rejected by a missionary organization that’s why she worked and earned enough money to buy the one way train ticket herself, which was the cheapest way to get there. However, that wasn’t enough money to get her there.
While she’s on the train, she ends up sitting next to a Christian couple who gave her some money after hearing about the call of God on her life.
That money ends up saving her life when she gets taken hostage on the way there and has to bribe her way out of trouble.
I admire her trust in the Lord to take a leap of faith, spending her last few dollars on a train ticket not knowing what would happen next. However, she never would have accomplished any of that if she had spent the rest of her life working full time as a maid instead of answering the call to “go ye.”
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It’s interesting that the chapter title for 1 Cor 9, 1-18 in the NKJV is “A Pattern of Self Denial.” He wasn’t writing these scriptures to lay a pattern for supporting pastors, but quite the opposite.
Too bad the institutional church today doesn’t actually follow Paul’s example in 1 Cor 9 instead of picking out a few verses here and there. Then again, I’m finding what passes for Christian “doctrine” these days is akin to tossing whatever happens to be in your fridge and/or pantry into a food processor and pulsing for a few minutes. You can call the final result “dinner,” but it might not be edible.
I don’t have any issue with someone who feels lead by the Spirit to support a minister. That’s their business. I do have a problem when it becomes an entitlement.
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“Please understand that I’m treading carefully here because I don’t want to minimize the deep pain that some people have experienced in the church.”
As for me, I am way past that and only interested in truth. It’s not that I disagree because I been “hurt”. I don’t come to conclusions that way. It might cause me to question. That part is healthy.
I think it is a mark of maturity to not only question traditional doctrines but to search out truth before we experience any spiritual abuse. I hope more will do so. When you use terms like “5 fold ministry” it is an indicator to me of pastoral influence not independent scriptural influence.
You can set your clock by the typical tithing sermons in many traditions. One is around this time of year and another before summer.
I have spent too much time in the past with church growth consultants and image managers. :o)
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“I agree with you that all believers are called. God has put different gifts inside of us and expects us to develop them. But like we were discussing earlier, the person who’s called by God to be a kindergarden teacher, isn’t going to have as mch time to do the work of the ministry as someone who’s full time in ”
I simply don’t agree with your understanding of ministry work. The teacher, as a believer, is in ministry. I don’t get the compartmentalization going on. I have family go to Afghanistan to set up clinics as humanitarian aid workerswho were ministering …..very carefully. Another cousin went to Romania to help get a college back on track who was ministering.
The best way, IMO, is to be a part of the real world, making tents, while modeling and ministering as a believer. You are able to approach people where they are. You are one of the them.
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Hi Avid Reader
I’ve enjoyed your stories of the saints who served in faith. Trusting Jesus.
I’m also sorry, what I’ve written about the “Tithe” really bothers you.
I’ve enjoyed your passion, and willingness to “tread carefully.”
And, still have the ability to state your case strongly.
But, I’m-a-thinkn, you and me gots a mis-understanding about “Tithe.”
Let’s see if we can clear it up. At least some.
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You write @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 1:50 PM…
“Amos,
The whole reason I spoke up is because it really bothers me when you put good pastors like Pastor Jeff in the same category with wolves and con artists just because they receive tithes!”
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Well, that was certainly NOT intent. 🙂
Putting pastor Jeff in the same category with wolves and con artists. 😦
I do NOT know if pastor Jeff “receives Tithes.” 🙂
Do you know if pastor Jeff “receives Tithes?”
1 – When you say… “receive tithes.” Do you mean “receive MONEY?”
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