Single women, church, rejection, alone, SINK
A comment from “Love” came in on an older post and I didn’t want it to get lost in the shuffle. This woman’s voice probably represents many women who are experiencing similar thoughts and feelings.
I wonder if I am the only Christian single, childless, 50-something, woman in the whole world who is not really focused on finding a man to marry. I can relate to other single women who have been made to feel like they have no place of significance in the church. I’ve even being asked not to attend a church that I poured my heart and soul into because the pastor thought “single women are a scourge on the church.”
I am involved in a much more loving church now, but I still feel somewhat isolated not only for being a SINK, but also for being older. Many contemporary churches don’t seem to have a place for older people, especially the very old. There are only a handful of people my age or older (all married), in a large church of 20-30 year olds. I do love the worship services, and take part in women’s bible studies and service projects (because they pretty much have to talk to me then 🙂, but any of the church social activities are just too emotionally painful. Rejection is a deep wound.
Love’s words show incredible pain: “no place of significance,” isolated, rejection.
She also described spiritual abuse by a pastor who labeled single women as a “scourge on the church.” This makes me sick. That certainly was not a healthy place for anyone!
How can the church do better in this area? Are there any singles over 50 who have some thoughts or ideas to share?
Spiritual Sounding Board 
For me I’m still on the hunt for the right kind of church for me. I’m having a difficult time finding one that I feel comfortable with, even though there are a lot to choose from. Please don’t tell me, “you are probably not close to God” or anything like that. It’s been a long time.
This morning I made the mistake of going to church and it’s Father’s Day. I forgot that it was that day. This morning at a church I went to (one of very many that I’ve tried), I felt like a real outsider. Seemed like all couples and family. One man who sat behind me said hello to me after the service. He was with his wife. That was it.
It’s all looking very hopeless. Maybe the Rapture will come and take me away from all of this.
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Oh, I should add (I wish I could go back to my post to edit) that I have noticed a lot of single people are just not going to church. Especially those around my age. I don’t know a whole lot of people, but everyone around my age and single have been telling me that they have not rooted themselves into a church.
Also, it seems like a lot of Christians that I know are working on Sundays. Either that they need more money to survive or it’s just better to be busy and making money instead of going to church. My sister is married with two children and is devout. Even she is working on Sundays and doesn’t seem to really care about missing church. I think that a lot of people are going to be hurt by this.
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Teri, you’re right about character.
I don’t think it’s about being superficial. I want someone i am attracted to, which doesn’t mean a supermodel, no. That sort of thing is very subjective. But I have gone on dates with people who are not my ‘type’ who were very nice but never became my type and I maybe never became theirs. Chemistry is a thing!
My last date with someone I was not attracted to ended up with a story about how all his ex’s basically left to get away from him – red flag city! So I unattractive does not equal good character! Besides I figure a man would rather be with someone who wants to be there and I have never been a good liar.
As for church, I am happy with mine. I don’t feel singled out (ha) but I am not being catered to either. I gave up on meeting a man at church long before I joined there, so that helps.
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@ Teri
I do care about looks somewhat, but if the guy has a bad personality, I don’t care how good looking he is.
I’ve been set up on blind dates with guys who are wealthy and very good looking but were also very arrogant, condescending, and rude, so I had no interest in dating them further.
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Tom said,
I sympathize.
Church is one of the worst days for childless or single women on Mother’s Day.
Sadder still are the catty Christian women I see online (who are mothers) who gripe and moan that if you’re a woman who finds Mother’s Day services at churches painful (because you are infertile, or your mother died, or whatever the case is), suck it up and get over it, because they STILL want to be honored at church on Mother’s Day.
My good gravy, the lack of empathy from some Christian women on that issue is mind boggling to me.
On occasions I’ve been to churches that do not fall on Mother’s Day, there is still a focus on coupling, marriage, and parenting.
I went to a mid-year church service once where I was not expecting any sort of motherhood message, but the pastor had all the women step forward with their babies for some kind of special prayer deal.
Had I known they were going to do that, I would’ve stayed at home that day.
As it was, the “honoring moms and babies” thing made me cry on the way home, because it reminded me I was still single (I associate babies with being married, not just with motherhood itself).
But it’s shocking the number of self professing Christians out there who would shame women such as myself who admit to this stuff – they think it’s more important to celebrate Mommyhood (or marriage) than be sensitive to any singles or child free or infertile people.
Almost all examples pastors cite in sermons to illustrate some biblical point or another is almost always about marriage, or they use their children as examples.
The same points could almost always be used by using the example of a friend, co worker, neighbor, aunt, cousin, but these jokesters ALWAYS opt to use “wife” or “son” or “daughter” as their illustrative point.
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I said above,
“Church is one of the worst days for childless or single women on Mother’s Day.”
I now realize how awkwardly I worded that, LOL.
Hopefully everyone knows what I meant by it, even though I muddled it.
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I am not opposed to churches celebrating mothers/fathers day necessarily, but I think there should be some sensitivity about it. These days are hard for a lot of people…
I missed church today but there was nothing about mothers day on mothers day.
Compared to stupid Gateway, which annoyingly did a whole marriage thing on valentines day last year.
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@Lea Being sensitive towards churches that celebrate father’s/mother’s day and valentine’s day is hard, BUT I look at it as trying to be happy for others who can celebrate it. Today we ask people to not talk about what makes us uncomfortable because of X Y Z, but Jesus tells us when we are weak he is strong and we need to focus on that.
I say bring on the things that makes me cry so I can better understand how Jesus can work in me and teach me how to rely on him to navigate me through this.
Being happy for others is hard and something I think we need to work on.
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Daisy, where in the Bible does it say, “Be ye happy for I am happy”? Regardless of how happy it may make us disobeying God is wrong.
Saying it’s more important that a man be good to me rather than loving the LORD makes me the center of things rather than Jesus. Unequal yoking is wrong and a very bad idea; like running a three-legged race when the man you’re tied to is headed in the opposite direction.
By the way, there are plenty of abusive, cheating atheists too.
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(Part of this post is for Doug as well.)
@ Rachel Nichols.
I don’t care about obeying God for the most part. I haven’t decided if I’m leaving the Christian faith or not. In the meantime, I can say I obeyed God my whole life and it got me didley squat.
Where does the Bible say, “God wants us all to be unhappy.” -?
Since I’ve abandoned a lot of the Christian faith, I’ve been a bit more at peace.
The church already does a great job (like secular American culture) at celebrating with those who are happy.
(This part for Doug too):
The church, and most Christians, are terrible at weeping with those who weep, whether those who weep are single and wanting marriage (we get platitudes instead, or shaming), or women who are infertile wanting a baby, or people who are going through the death of a loved one.
Of course some atheists are awful. My sister had a live-in atheist boyfriend for many years. He cheated on her, was selfish, etc.
But, I’d rather marry a decent, loving atheist man than a self-professing Christian one who is abusive or selfish.
I now have a wider dating pool from which to choose. There are no single Christian men ages 30 – 70 in most churches. I’m in my 40s. There are no single Christian dudes my age in churches, and the self professing Christian guys on dating sites are dirty minded weirdos.
You said,
Uh, no it doesn’t make me the center of things. It means I’ve gotten realistic about dating, and the Christian way does not work – the “unequally yoked” view unnecessarily limits the dating pool for single ladies.
And really, blogs like this so often feature stories of controlling or abusive Christian men, I’d feel a bit safer dating Non-Christian men. Go to Google News and do a search for “youth pastor sex abuse” or “preacher prostitute” and such like phrases, and up will pop tends to dozens of news stories of Christian men who have been arrested for fondling children or married Christian men who have visited prostitutes.
There was a news item over a year ago about a Christian man (who I think worked as a pastor) who was arrested for taking out a Craig’s List ad seeking to have sex with a dog. Do you really think I’d want to be “equally yoked” to a perverted dog abuser like that? No thank you.
I don’t drink the Christian Kool-Aid anymore, Rachel.
I used to be a full blown, Bible believing, sweet, Jesus-loving girl up until a few years ago when certain things happened in my life (and certain other things did not happen).
So -I re-examined my beliefs and now realize a lot of them – involving Christianity – are naive and simply do not work.
I’m not quite ready to date just yet, who knows when that day will arrive, but in the meantime, I’ve already changed the dating sites I’m on to match me up with agnostics and atheists.
Rachel said,
Er, no. I’ve seen too, too many stories by Christian women on this blog (and others) who discuss how they were married to “men who love the LORD,” and those men were verbally or physically abusing them, or, they later found out, molesting kids, to fall for that sort of thinking any longer.
You cannot guarantee that just because a man says he “loves the LORD” or attends church that he’s a decent, loving, caring person. Hence, a woman must judge the guy by what he does, his character – not by what he says he believes about religion, or not external religious trappings, such as, does he read the Bible,etc.
Check out this guy – he “loved the LORD” (which is your criteria) and talked about his favorite Bible verses with single Christian women he met on a dating site, and he later raped one or two of them:
Here’s your Equally Yoked standards in practice, Rachel – these women “obeyed the LORD” and got raped:
Christian date-site rapist gets 37 to life Nov 2014, San Diego Trib story
I’d rather date a Non-Christian guy who isn’t going to force himself on me than a Bible-quoting Christian pervert.
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(I may have a link or two below about the small dating prospects for single religious ladies.)
Re: Rachel Nichols post.
I sure as hey do not want to be Equally Yoked to this deviant mess:
Missouri Baptist leader arrested for allegedly seeking sex with a dog
If my choices are between
OPTION 1.
that Baptist, Christian pervert guy and
OPTION 2. a guy who is, say, a Jew, Hindu, or New Ager, who does not have intimate relations with animals, I’d pick option 2.
There is NO AMOUNT of “equally yoked” that is worth it.
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Re: Rachel Nichols’ post.
My ex fiance’, who was very selfish and who financially exploited me, claimed to be a Christian, btw.
Also not enthused about “equally yoked” (or complementarianism) after seeing stuff like this, either:
Indiana man accused of raping and abusing wife after forcing her to sign ‘slave contract’
Sept 2014
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Re: Rachel Nichols’ post (continued)
The numbers are such that single women over the age of 30 who are conservative and religious don’t have any single men to date, because there are no single men past the age of 30 (they’re all married already):
How the Dating Scene Became Stacked Against Women
So, the numbers are such that if you are a single Christian woman who wants to be married, you will pretty much not have a choice but to date and marry a Non-Christian, as getting a Christian guy who is also compatible with you and who is not abusive and also not a jerk is rare.
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I’m over 50 (I pass for 35 till people ask me how old I am. LOL) and a total SINK.
Very hard life for sure, however unwrapping what I know and see from this world and trying hard to wrap my mind around what Jesus wants for me is always a work in progress. Will I ever get there, I don’t know but I must trust in Jesus.
Jesus at times wants us to be on the last 1″ of rope to hold onto to so we will trust in him. Just gotta block all the distractions of this world and focus and cry out to him.
Question: “What does it mean that God collects our tears in a bottle?”
Answer: While in the custody of his enemies, David wrote, “You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle” (Psalm 56:8, ESV). David was going through a difficult time. He begins this sad psalm with the words “Be gracious to me, O God, for man tramples on me; all day long an attacker oppresses me” (Psalm 56:1, ESV). The Philistines had captured David in Gath—David was, at the time he wrote this psalm, a prisoner of war, and he had reason to cry and be sorrowful. David says that his struggles are recorded in God’s book (verse 8), and he asks God to put his tears in His bottle. What does this poetic language mean? Does God really have a bottle where all our tears go? Are the events of our lives really written in a book?
The idea behind the keeping of “tears in a bottle” is remembrance. David is expressing a deep trust in God—God will remember his sorrow and tears and will not forget about him. David is confident that God is on his side. He says, in the midst of this troubling time, “This I know, God is for me” (Psalm 56:9, ESV) and “In God I trust; I shall not be afraid. What can man do to me?” (verse 11, ESV). God may not have an actual bottle where our tears are kept or a literal book where sorrows are recorded, but He nonetheless remembers all the things that happen in our lives, including the suffering endured for His sake. In fact, there are many instances in Scripture of God’s recognition of man’s suffering. God is a tender-hearted Father to us, a God who feels with us and weeps with us (Exodus 3:7; John 11:33–35).
The fact that God remembers us and our sufferings should be very comforting. Often, obedience and following Jesus create suffering in our lives. This should not be a surprise. Jesus spoke on multiple occasions of the suffering that accompanies discipleship. Jesus warned, “Everyone will hate you because of me” (Luke 21:17; cf. Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:13; Matthew 10:22). The Lord said that Paul would be shown “how much he must suffer for my name” (Acts 9:16). Loss—even when that loss is a result of obedience to God—creates real suffering and real tears. But God remembers our sufferings and has promised to more than compensate (Matthew 19:29).
Our tears are not futile. God knows each of His children intimately, and every tear we shed has meaning to Him. He remembers our sorrow as if He kept each tear in a bottle. In the end, He will share His joy with us when “‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Revelation 21:4).
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That is the biggest bunch of bull I’ve ever heard, I’m way above thirty and women are just not interested or overly picky waiting for the worse possible lying fool to walking in the door to grab up. They’re disconnected and not looking or interested, not engaged or other wise. I’ve been single for a long time and regardless what you ladies think there is no prince, there is no knight coming to sweep you off your feet on the flying white horse and your mama was lying to you too, you’re not the best thing since sliced bread. Now go other there and make the usual horrible choices. No wonder I’m still single. I’m done here you people are sucking the positive energy right out of me.
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I mean…surely you would want a supposedly Christian man who wasn’t good to you? WhAt kindnof Christian would that be? Ugh.
I want a man to love me. Loving Jesus would also be great but I kind of get daisy in that I don’t see much difference between Christian and non Christian as far as dating is comcerned. Give me a good man. Regardless.
(I will say I think these people who go around talking about how Christina’s they are and then raping are lying)
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What on earth?
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Thank you Doug for the lovely post about tears.
I’m not sure who sams was replying to when he wrote this…
sams said,
Dating is tough for everyone, sams. Finding true love is difficult for everyone of both genders.
I’ve told my story here on several threads…
I was engaged to a physically unattractive, supposedly cash strapped, uneducated yokel who financially exploited me and who was very self absorbed. I put up with him for several years hoping he’d change, but he never did.
My family wondered the first year of my relationship why I was dating him, since they (who normally put me down) said I was “too smart and pretty for him.”
Does that sound like I was being too picky, sams?
Most women I’ve known personally have lived with, married, or dated male gold diggers who are selfish, cheat on them with other women, and/or never help with housework and are unemployed. Are they too picky, sams? I don’t think so.
A lot of women either have low self esteem, or get tired of waiting for a genuine decent guy to show up, so they settle for Mr. Third Rate-
-some women were brought up in abusive households when younger, which is one reason some women gravitate towards abusive men – it’s not because women “enjoy” being abused.
I’m in my 40s. When I was in my late 20s and all in my 30s and was single and looking, I could not find single men my age, especially not in church. All men over the age of 25 in churches are engaged, married, or way out of my age range.
Most women I know would love a White Knight on a brave steed but are willing to date a bit less than that, provided the guy is kind, has stable employment, is not abusive, etc.
I don’t tend to blame the entire male gender if one guy I have my sights on is not interested in me in return.
It is disappointing and frustrating to be rejected, but I realize that sometimes the guy just does not have romantic feelings for me in return, so I don’t take it personally and start hating on the entire male gender for that.
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Lea
sams said,
Now go other there and make the usual horrible choices
What on earth?
I may be misreading sams, but I think he’s one of those single guys who gets angry with the entire female gender because he can’t get a girlfriend for whatever the reason, but he sees women dating men who are mean or selfish or abusive, and he cannot figure out why women will date Jerks.
He’s may be one of those guys I see online who go on and on about how “Nice They Are” and they are angry because women prefer dating jerks to dating “Nice Guys Just Like Them.”
They get frustrated with being single and take it out on All Women Everywhere.
As I told him above, the reason women date jerks is not because they hate “nice guys” or like being abused or exploited but due to reasons like, they have low self esteem, or were raised in abusive households (abuse is all they know.The wouldn’t know a healthy decent relationship if it came up and shook their hand)
Also: another big reason why the mean guys gets dates and Nice Guys do not: the jerks approach women and ask them out, as in, “I find you attractive. May I take you out for coffee sometime?”
Your average Nice Guy is afraid of rejection and will not risk it, so he never ever asks women out. He drops Nice Hints and does stuff like change the woman’s oil for her, or mows her lawn for her, hoping that the woman will respond to those Nice Guy actions by getting romantic with him. That’s not usually how it works.
If you are a Nice Guy, you need to face your fear of rejection. If you like a woman, ask her out on a date. Stop dropping hints. Stop hoping she will read your mind and figure out that you like her.
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I checked the bell symbol thing on Word Press, and it says Sams was replying to my post above that says,
“Re: Rachel Nichols’ post (continued)
The numbers are such that single women over the age of 30 who are conservative and religious don’t have any single men to date, because there are no single men past the age of 30 (they’re all married already):
How the Dating Scene Became Stacked Against Women
Stats confirm what we knew all along: There aren’t enough single men.
So, the numbers are such that if you are a single Christian woman who wants to be married, you will pretty much not have a choice but to date and marry a Non-Christian, as getting a Christian guy who is also compatible with you and who is not abusive and also not a jerk is rare.”
Yep.
Sams doesn’t want to believe that Nice Guys like himself are single due to number imbalances, but because women are too selfish, picky, unrealistic, or whatever he was getting at.
If Sams is a man (I assume sams is a man), and he is single and between the ages of like 30 – 60, he needs to start regularly attending any number of Protestant evangelical or Southern Baptist churches, if his goal is to marry a single Christian woman.
(Of course, he could also try Christian dating sites.
However, if he tries dating sites:
He strikes me as being one of those guys who, if a woman he “winks” at or messages on a dating site doesn’t write him back within three seconds, he starts impatiently messaging her back, “Why haven’t you written me back yet??” – that is creepy, off-putting behavior to most women.)
There is in fact a Man Shortage in evangelical Christianity going on (as well as in Mormonism and Judaism), and if he walked into about any Protestant church, there would be about a zillion single women for every one of him.
If none of them are interested in him in return, maybe he neglects to use deodorant, or he walks in with lettuce stuck between his teeth, or there is something creepy about him, or perhaps he’s socially awkward, and any of that is driving the ladies away.
Here is another article about the Man Shortage going on in conservative religious circles: From TIME Magazine:
What Two Religions Tell Us About the Modern Dating Crisis
A guy wrote a whole book about how there are way more single, conservative religious women than there are men. That is what that TIME link is about.
The author goes into details about the situation at that web page. So sams, I’m not making this stuff up. Other people have reported on it.
Also for sams: BTW, some men are way too picky concerning dating and marriage. I read an article a few months ago (did I mention this above?) about men who are in their 40s now who are dying of loneliness because now that they are ready to get married, all the women their age are already snapped up.
The article went on abut how those men in their 40s now regret they frittered away their 20s and 30s “sowing wild oats” and trying to avoid marriage. These men now wish they had married earlier, because now they want a wife and cannot find one.
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Weirdly, there is a single guy who sits in front of me and one who sits behind me in my age range at church! I’m pretty sure one is gay (although I haven’t asked, because rude so maybe not) and the other I already went on a date with.
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I can’t argue with you that there are a lot of creeps and hypocrites who attend church. I don’t believe they’re all Christians though. And they certainly don’t love the LORD. Remember the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats?
I finally ended my unhappiness (partially) by ending my wait. I no longer date and have given up on marriage. At least now I can exhale and have some closure.
I still have to deal with the crabs at church who think all “real Christians” must be clones of them and their yuppie families.
Maybe some of the wives are jealous of me, though Heaven knows why! I’ve always been homely and awkward–even when young. To all you paranoid wives in the pew: Don’t worry. I know you carry on to anyone who’ll listen about how your Hubby-Wubby is such a studly hunka hunka burnin’ love! But guess what? He ain’t all that and a bag of chips. He’s safe with me. In fact, I wouldn’t kiss your stud-muffin hubby for $10,000. Seductive siren that I am.
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To Rachel
I have surrendered my desire to get married also. It’s a nice feeling to do so, but there are times I could go into self pity about it. The pity is very short lived. I feel weird for feeling that way at times, but not very often. I used to get very down a lot when I wanted someone and didn’t succeed. I’m glad that’s over with.
I’m OK being alone with myself, too. But there are times it doesn’t make me feel good. I wish that there could be a good church to go to like it used to be. There are so many churches now in my area that are contemporary in style of worship and I don’t care for it. I know that a lot people prefer that, and I’m OK with those that feel that way. I feel the need to be somewhere where I could be warmly accepted.
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Not only are most praise choruses so shallow and repetitive I find myself daydreaming, but the music is too loud. I have way too sensitive ears. No one else I know has this problem. Born that way. My mom says even as an infant I would react strongly to loud noise.
It’s good to try to win Millenials, but adopting a contemporary music style and other pop culture elements seems misguided. Why go to church to hear a praise band for hip, trendy music when you can get the real thing on YouTube or at secular events?
Considering most young people are single and poor, maybe the church would do well to reconsider only targeting wealthy married people.
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@Rachel
I’m am introverted and have been all of my life. I can very much understand having sensitive ears with music being too loud. I’m that way, too, along with crowds. I’ve heard old people say that it’s good for the really young people to have music that suits them so that they can be at a place to hear God’s message. I don’t know about that. I feel that kind of music can be misleading and misguiding. When I was around the Millenial’s age (during the early 80s), Christian Rock music was popular. I didn’t care for it, even though it was supposed to be suited for me at that time.
As far as church that would do well targeting wealthy married people, I feel that churches are already made for married or coupled people, with or without kids. I think that the ideal target for churches to go for are single baby boomers. So many of them are not going to church now because they are disgusted with they way churches treat them. The single baby boomers (and maybe those a little bit younger than the boomers) are an untapped market; and I feel that churches would do very well if they can put something together. After all, there is a whole lot of single baby boomers (including me!). Would anybody reading on here have any ideas on how it can happen?
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This is one of the many reasons I joined a church where we sing hymns. Accompanied by organ. And I’m closer to millennial than baby boomer!
Not everybody like the same thing.
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In the past an older widow and I had success organizing a Christian singles’ group. Some of us did pair off, but that wasn’t our real purpose. We studied the Bible, discussed our life challenges (marrieds have challenges but they’re often different) and built up friendships with each other. It was inter-denominational. Most of our churches had no more than 3-4 singles apiece.
As far as getting churches to actively reaching out to singles of any age, I really can’t think of any easy solution as things stand. Somehow convince the smug marrieds in the pews that singles have souls too and are valued in the sight of God?
I’m glad the 80’s are over. As a teenager, my youth group always dragged me to “fun” stuff like Petra concerts that made my ears bleed and my nerves stick out all over like porcupine quills! 😀 My friends couldn’t figure out why I didn’t like having a good time like the rest of them.
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@Rachel
How did you organize a successful Christian single’s group? How did you get people to come? Did you advertise, word of mouth, or anything else? That’s great that you and your friend were able to put together a successful Christian singles group.
I got with a friend one time and told him how I feel about churches and stuff. He could relate very well since he was a Christian single and around my age. He’s very outgoing, unlike me. He said that he would get a group together. He had a radio program that he’s on. Apparently he tried to get a group together but it didn’t succeed.
He and I had a fallout recently, so he’s pretty much out of my life. He wasn’t a good of a friend as I thought he was.
One time I emailed a message to a popular Christian radio talk show host. I asked him if he would consider having anything on his show about being a Christian single. It was about two months ago when I sent him a message and so far I have not heard anything from him.
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It was my friend Laurel’s brain child. She already was active in her church and went to various functions and put the word out by telling people about it. I met her and found out about the group at a ladies’ luncheon.
As far as finding an accepting church to worship at Sunday mornings, I would look at the small kinds. The type that average fewer than 50 in attendance and often use a lone pianist and hymnals instead of praise teams. They can be unfriendly, snobbish and exclusive too. But often they are so happy to have any new face that they won’t care if you come minus the spouse and kids and drive an old clunker. Mega churches can afford to be choosy. So they often fawn all over the wealthy (though the Epistle of James condemns this behavior) and pointedly ignore poor people–especially those with no family.
Lina Abujamra, a Christian writer, works as a successful pediatrician. She’s obviously not living in poverty. But even she gets ignored a lot at church. Once she became depressed and quit attending for a month or two. Later she felt guilty and returned, but no one seemed to have noticed she was gone. 😦
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From a guy I was talking to recently, DivorceCare at his church seems to function as a single ministry. Except only for people who have been divorced.
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I’m glad for the divorcees. Unfortunately that still leaves us virgins out in the cold.
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Maybe they could have DivorceCAre/Singles mixers 🙂
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@ Rachel (and to others)
I very much agree with you about the small churches. I never cared for the mega churches and stayed away from them. Anyways, the mega churches all tend to be contemporary. I hardly would know of any mega church that would just be a piano and organ (the way it’s been for the last 200 years or so). Even smaller churches are going the way of contemporary to try to compete with the larger ones. It sucks.
My sister, who has been going to a small-town Methodist Church, told me that the Pastor is thinking of changing the style from traditional to contemporary so that young people will come in.
The problem with a church that goes traditional style worship is that the vast majority of people are very old. The old people would have been to that church for many years and then they are into their comfortable cliques; which makes them not interested in getting to know new and younger people (like even at my age!). The elderly are OK, but they have a tendency to be very set in their ways. Recently I went to a church that was traditional and mostly elderly. I never felt warmly welcomed and encouraged. I only knew one old man, and he was gay and wanted me. No thank-you on that!
After that I went to a very small church, which was literally next door to me. It was alright, until something happened there that soured me. I went to a Men’s breakfast when I first went there. The experience was alright, but it could have been better. The next month I went to the Men’s breakfast at an IHOP where the bulletin said it was going to be held. NO ONE SHOWED UP! The next day the Pastor told me that he decided to have the Men’s breakfast somewhere else and he forgot to call me. I recalled that the first time I went, this one old guy that was there put me on the “hot seat” as to why I never got married. Needless to say, I didn’t go back to that church and no one had ever called me to check up on me.
There is diversity with single people, and we must remember that. The one thing we have in common is that we’re not presently married. There are the widowed, divorced, and never married. There are differences with the three.
I may be wrong about this, but there are times when I feel like single women tend to be more accepted in churches than single men, especially older. I’ve seen lots of single women in churches, both young and old, that blend in together pretty well. I have not experienced that myself with the men at churches.
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I agree with you. While single women are more apt to open contempt and mockery (they call this teasing and if you cry or get angry you’re “too sensitive”) bachelors are often gossiped about. Usually they assume you’re a lecherous horndog, if not a child molester or gay. Married women often think we’re out to steal their hubbies. Sometimes I wonder if these matrons are defrauding their hubbies since they act so paranoid about other women.
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To all that have commented that Mother’s Day and Father’s Day are rough days to go to church, yes indeed. Not so much rough for me but I do roll my eyes ’cause I know what’s coming and I don’t relate. I’m goog with not having had children but once a lady almost fell out of her church seat because I told her I did not want children. I then told her that just because I happen to have a Uterus does not mean I have to use it. Talk about “roles” – it’s so dumb. “You take out the trash because you’re a male and you cook because you’re a female…” dumb, dumb, dumb. I actually don’t mind taking out the trash. I’d happily do that chore if someone else will clean the toilettes… LOL!
To Leah and Daisy, yes, I also have to be attracted and yes, it’s very subjective. I too have dated very handsome men or attractive males that have nothing to offer and yes, being unattractive is not a qualifyer.
Don’t know where you all are located but there’s a website named meetup.com and that’s where I have found great people. I’m contemplating starting one for Christians that want to do something besides eating (why does every event have to revolve around food?) – but fun stuff like hiking, skiing, outings that involve socializing. I’m so not a movies type person – that’s why God allowed Netflix to be invented 🙂
Do you all know about meetup and do you access it?
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I’ve done meetup.com and grps are single +45 and up, I’m 50 and everyone there is 65+ not fun for me. Done Christian and Singles. Most the times is 1-3 women and 8+ men.
I think I have given up pretty much. I have not felt happy in over 5 years, seldom smile and no real friends because everyone is busy with their family and other friends who are married as well. I just exist. Been trying to feel something and nothing is there. I liver in sorrow, and isolation.
Have looked and looked, but no where for single Christians over 40. Nothing exist. When I’m 55 there is the oldie group where someone might die so I might have a chance with someone but that is just to creepy for me.
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Yes, I have done meetup a few times but it’s kind of awkward. We have a hiking one, so you might try something like that. There are a ton of running and biking groups around here where you can meet people but you have to run or alternately bike. I think I’m sort of half introvert so I have to psych myself up for strangers lol.
I think the best way to meet people in general is to get plugged in to some group or a very social friend. My problem is that all my friends are married, so it’s a little hard to meet single people with them.
Doug, I’m so sorry. I hope you find somewhere to plug in!
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“I think I have given up pretty much. I have not felt happy in over 5 years, seldom smile and no real friends because everyone is busy with their family and other friends who are married as well. I just exist. Been trying to feel something and nothing is there. I liver in sorrow, and isolation.” — Doug
I am sorry to hear this, Doug.
Have you been to your doctor for a check-up and a referral? Have you been checked for depression?
Would it be possible to expand your life in some small way, like by getting a pet?
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I can truly relate to the single Christian woman in her 50’s. I am in my 60′ and divorced so I am treated the same way and there seem to be no church functions for single older women. The women speak from a distance
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Been thinking about Sams (were his posts deleted?) and all those other Nice Guys who go on rants.
Maybe you Nice Guys need to ask yourselves:
Many girls reject beta males because they themselves are shallow, immature bimboes.
Solution: Don’t insist on dating a shallow, immature bimbo even if she is the hot blonde all your buddies are fighting over. She’s not worth competing for anyhow.
If you’re such a Nice Guy, why do you go on misogynist rants about how evil women are, how you hate us all, how we should all be chopped up and fed to the crows? Really, that’s not my definition of Nice. Maybe you’re more alpha than you realized.
Solution: Nourish your inner misogynist. Learn to ride a harley. You too can become a sleezy alpha leader of the pack and have dumb women fawning over you. Vroom! Broo-haw-haw!!
Better Solution: Save your venting for private journaling. In addition to being nice try to be strong as well. If you want to date a girl ask her. Nicely, of course. If she says “You’re ‘too nice,'” you’ll know she’s an airhead you wouldn’t want to marry anyhow.
I always thought “you’re too nice,” was lame, even when I was 16. I never would have turned a guy down for a date because of his kindness, gentleness or good manners.
None of those Nice Guys ever asked me though. They were too busy fighting over the Hot Blonde.
Ah, youth! That’s why we all should marry young. We’re so level-headed and reasonable before we hit twenty-two. 😀
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I can never recall turning down a guy for being ‘too nice’ (or friends doing that either). I do remembering turning a guy down in high school because he asked me to a dance through a friend and I thought he should be asking me himself. That’s not about being ‘nice’ though. That’s about being assertive.
[now maybe he was a great guy and I should have accepted, but ah, youth, is right :)]
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@Velour
This is spiritual depression. Americans are the most medicated for depression then any nation in the world and the meds are not good for most people.
I prayed very earnestly about my non social situation and other things months ago and God told me “I put you in the forge” and said nothing more. So I must be hammered into shape and strengthened if I want to or not. I know in the end I will come out much better, but in the mean time I have to remember this.
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Everyone: all your comments are valid but giving up is what begins the downspiral. This coming from someone well acquainted with harship so not being insensitive. I get that at times it is discouraging and one can feel sad but you gotta keep going and trying. Knock and the door opens, seek and you shall find, you got to keep trying and as Lea said, you have to plug in. Volunteering, Meetups, Professional Associations, REI (the store) puts on some amazing trips all over the world, do research to find what suits you and yes, “psych yourself up” to show up. Tell yourself that you will attend for 60 minutes to 90 minutes and if the event is crappy, you’ll leave but not first without introducing yourself to at least 3 people. You have to put yourself out there so that you can meet new potential friends. Saying that one group did not work and so you’re giving up is what will keep you in that place. What if you started your own meetup?
I am seriously considering doing this myself and so I would value your input:
what would make you join OR not join a meetup that says it’s for Christians or Believers and the age range is 40 – 65, coed and for Singles? The activities would include road trips, skiing/cross country, walking trips, outings to sample different kinds of foods, all types of activities. Would you join? How many times would you attend? Would you attend 3 times and then be willing to contribute $5 annually to help pay for the meetup?
What are your thoughts? Obviously church is not meeting the need for single adults to connect so I’m considering creating a venue. Lea, if you did this, you will certainly have lots of social friends and the mere fact that you are hosting will attract all the attendees to you so you can meet them. I have seen many people in my city start a meetup because they just moved here, work and want to meet others. Other people like to engage in activities such as kayaking, backpacking and their spouse and friends won’t join so they start their own meetup. I think this is a super smart idea.
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I just posted a rebuttal to some smug, self-righteous idiot who thinks he has all the answers as to why so many Christian women are single. If you guessed that it’s all your fault you get a gold star for the day. https://lookingupliiving.wordpress.com/2017/06/24/virgin-shaming-in-the-church/
This pompous moron married in college. Yet he thinks he’s the expert on why all of us 40 something female losers haven’t landed a husband. He doesn’t know my life circumstances, but he thinks he knows I’m immoral, picky, shallow, and proud! And not “proactive” enough in seeking a husband. WTH does this bozo mean? It’s not like a job interview. We were always told not to chase guys because that would scare them away.
Here’s the Bozo’s actual article. thefederalist.com/2014/06/09/four-myths-about-the-helpless-single-woman/
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Hi Doug,
Thanks for your reply. I will be praying for you.
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That’s funny, because I feel like a lot of dates feel a little like a job interview. The bad ones feel a LOT like a job interview!
I do think no one who married in college really gets how dating works in different age ranges.
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If you haven’t tried dating while disabled you can’t imagine how impossible it is. It IS like a job interview. Unemployable AND undateable. Turds like him don’t even consider problems like that!
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(Part 1)
Hi. Haven’t yet read through any and all posts since I was last on this thread, I may or may not do that later, and I may or may not respond to any of those posts.
For now, I wanted to comment on this, by Rachel Nichols:
And I have a lot to say about this, so I apologize in advance if this post is really long.
Yes, what Rachel writes above is very common in Christian circles and also in secular life.
I’m a right winger and have been my whole life, but sometimes other right wingers get a few things wrong, this issue being one of them.
Whether we are talking about secular conservatives or their Christian counterparts, they often make the same mistakes:
-that singleness is bad and wrong and marriage to be preferred;
-all single women past a certain age deliberately chose to be single,
(or, if single past age X, it is assumed they were too wrapped up in career to try to get married, so it’s a woman’s fault if she finds herself single past age X).
And yes, generally, almost every time I see such attitudes, it’s from MARRIED people, who are usually age 50, or older, who got married when they were 25 and have no idea what it’s like to still be single in one’s 30s or older…. though not always.
I’ll occasionally see a 20- (or perhaps 30-) something married person write equally obnoxious commentary at singles, telling us why it is we’re single at age X.
An aside:
The 20-somethings have a lot of hubris – they give condescending lectures to single women over 40, such as myself, making all these insulting, negative assumptions as to why we’re still single.
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(Part 2 – Re: Post by Rachel Nichols🙂
There have been numerous insulting “What’s wrong with you” type lists and essays aimed at singles especially in the last few years. It’s a cottage industry. Sometimes these articles are by Non-Christians.
There was one a few years ago by a woman who was divorced two or three times who dared lecture older single ladies why they haven’t been able to get a husband, and yes, it boiled down to a list of insults – you’re too slutty, etc.
Here was one single woman’s response to that dreck:
Why I’m not married (and it’s not because I’m an angry slut) – on CNN’s site
I notice that the majority of these articles are most usually aimed at women, and declaring there’s something wrong with us women, which is why we aren’t hitched.
I honestly rarely see authors (whether secular or Christian) lecture single men as to why they, the men, are still single. (I’ve only seen a small number of online blog posts that shame older men for being single, or who insult men for being single.)
I already provided links above to articles that explain that in certain conservative religious circles, there is a gender imbalance, meaning, there are more single women than single men, so not all women will get a husband. That is hardly the fault of single women.
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(Part 3 – Re: Post by Rachel Nichols )
Rachel N said,
I think you were quoting a secular conservative source there, but…
Christians give contradictory advice and commentary to singles as well.
The women are told to be independent to get a man, but not TOO independent. We’re told to be sexy but not TOO sexy, etc…
Group 1.
There is one group of Christians I’ve seen (usually gender complementarian) who write long essays or lists with characteristics they tell single Christian women to hold out for when mate hunting.
Their lists are impossibly long, and the standards they tell single women to hold out for are so high, no man alive, apart from Jesus of Nazareth Himself, could meet them.
Such lists or advice will only keep a single woman single indefinitely if she abides by them.
Group 2
But, I’ve noticed a sort of new trend in the last few years, which I’ll get to in a moment.
Because a small portion of Christians have noted that singles now comprise a large percentage of society and marriage is on the decline, they are worried and in a tizzy.
Christians cannot accept singles as single – they worship marriage. Many Christians do not respect singleness, so they pressure singles into getting married, no matter the cost.
This group swings the advice and commentary to singles too far in the other direction, from being too high and strict to being too lenient, and they write articles and blog posts advising single Christian women to drop most or all of their expectations, standards, and criteria when husband- hunting.
For example….
Reports from the last few years in the news reveal that looking at dirty web sites and dirty movies is just as high, or almost as high, among Christian men as among Non-Christian men.
Men looking at dirty photos or movies is a deal-breaker for a lot of Christian single women.
However, a Christian sociologist wrote an article a year or two ago kind of scolding Christian women for holding a man viewing nudie photo viewing as a wedding deal breaker.
He told them to reject that criteria and go ahead and marry a Christian man, even if that man looks at nudie photos all day long.
Then, there is the Christian preacher who stated that since so many Christian preachers are looking at nudie photos, he redefined “fornication” to exclude nudie pictures as a category, so he ends his article by arguing that a man viewing nudie pics is NOT a biblical grounds for a woman to divorce.
Because so many Christian men are failing in the area of sexual purity, Christian men are telling women to just put up with it, go ahead and marry a guy with a sexual sin problem (or stay married to him if already married).
So, one group of Christians makes dating criteria so high it will be next to impossible for a single women to marry, should she follow their advice.
The other group goes the opposite, equally depressing and problematic route and encourages single women to reject about any and all criteria, or their deeply held personal convictions, and to go ahead and marry any guy who comes along, no matter how deviant and gross he is.
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(Part 4 – Re: Post by Rachel Nichols )
By the way, this post is appearing on page 2 or 3 of this thread; my part 1 is Located Here, with a part 2 right under that.
Anyway, yes, there’s a lot of insulting, derogatory material out there snarking at women who are single past age of 30, both from secular conservatives and by Christians.
Many of these conservatives assume if you’re a woman still single past age X, it’s because you’re a raving feminist loon who hates family, men, marriage, kids and/or you worshipped your job too much.
The truth of the matter is it’s freaking hard the older one gets to find eligible, compatible men to date.
I did not deliberately set out to be a never-married women past the age of 40.
I had been taught as a kid to pray and trust God to send me a spouse, but I was never sent a spouse. In the meantime, I would like to be respected as a single so long as I am single.
I want my fellow conservatives to stop writing these arrogant, condemning essays where they tell me I’m still single because I’m too flabby, arrogant, bimbo-ish, career-focused, or whatever other negative quality. These people have never even met me or seen me in person or seen a photo of me, so they are writing from fantasy and ignorance.
(You may be able to pick up some clues online as to why someone is still single at age X from their writing alone, case in point, the men who show up to complain they are “nice guys” who cannot get a girlfriend, yet their tone of their posts show a lot of entitlement or bitterness against women.)
Other than a few cases like that, I cannot think of too many other scenarios where one person can tell another over the internet or in a magazine article what the cause is of their singleness.
I am really sick and tired of secular and religious magazine articles, blogs, or books telling me I’m single past 40, and it’s all my fault I am still single, and/or I am still single because I am ugly, fat, stupid, a man-hating feminist, or insert other insulting or untrue assumptions here.
It is just really difficult meeting single guys once you’re over 30. When you’re in college, you’re surrounded by lots of people in your age range. That is not so much true once you hit your mid 20s and older.
Then, if you have a steady, full time job, you’re in a time crunch. Even if there were dudes you could date, how would you get the time to date them?
The people who make negative assumptions about why older single women are single never factor these considerations in. It’s always just assumed older single ladies are single because it’s all their fault ,or they are so hideous no man would ever want them.
~The End~ 🙂
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Yep. Matthew Cochran is the name of the A___H____ (I meant Air Head! Hee hee!) who wrote this article. Got married in college–probably in his teens or barely out of them. Wrote some nonsense about how we all fantasize about bad boy Brad Pitt clones and ignore the hordes of wonderful bachelors in our midst because we’re so shallow and picky. Does this moron live on Jupiter? He sure ain’t on planet Earth!
As I recall, I was invisible to the guys I went to college with because I wore a size 14 dress. Too bookish and deep. And bad at flirting. Some liked me as a friend. But none of them saw me as marriage material cause I wasn’t a cute, perky blonde. I’m not the one who was picky!
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Rachel Nichols said,
Yeah, male writers (and sometimes female sell-outs to the female gender) will sometimes assume we single ladies are single because we were holding out for a chiseled, multi-millionaire, Bruce Wayne with six pack abs.
Nope on that. Women are generally more forgiving of looks than men are.
I had several people take me aside while I was engaged to my ex to say they didn’t get why I was with my then-fiance’, as they felt he was ugly as lye soap and felt I was pretty. They felt I was out of his league (even my ex said he felt I was out of his league)
I find a lot of men, even balding, toothless, dorky dweebs who are ages 35 and over, and who have no teeth, feel entitled to an air-brushed, 20-something “Sports Illustrated” magazine model, and further, such entitlement and unrealistic standards are even supported in or by churches and Christians.
(Churches teach that men are designed to be more visual, and I, as a woman, constantly heard growing up that I should keep myself trim and pretty because dudes like the pretty, and men will not date or marry ugly fatties.
Only once in my whole life have I seen a male Christian writer declare to the single men to get off their couches, go on a diet, lose the beer gut, and hit the gym, because they might get more dates or get a GF if they get in shape).
I do care about what a man looks like, but I am willing to overlook my personal preferences in the physical appearance department to an extent if the guy is sweet, funny, nice, smart, or brings some other quality to the table.
My impression is that most men are not willing to compromise on a woman’s looks or ages – no matter how ugly or how old a guy is, they are all dead set on marrying a 21 year old stick thin fashion model.
Some polls bear this out, by the way.
I saw an article a year or more ago showing that while most women on dating sites set their age prefs within a few years of their own ages (e.g., most 40 year old women will say on the site they are looking for men ages 35 – 45), that most men on dating sites, even 50 and 60 year olds, will set their accounts to only filter women ages 20 – 25.
Some of the men on the dating sites (the articles said) won’t even look at profiles of women ages 26 (or 30) and older.
I think that is really, really dumb of men. If you are a single guy over age 35, you will have an unending line of pretty, smart, accomplished women over age 35 on dating sites (or in real life) who would love to date you.
The world of women would be yours, all yours, yet so many of you all are fixated on grabbing the 23 year old Cindy Crawford look-alike (who you’re never going to score with, and, she’s being chased by all the other men ages 20 and up….)
You could have plenty of 37 year old, or 45 year old, or 50 year old hotties, but you’re fixated on the 20 somethings.
I think there are a minority of single women who are way unrealistic or too demanding in their dating criteria as well (re: money or looks), but from what I’ve seen over my life, and in many articles I’ve read, these issues of being too picky, and so on, seems far, far more pervasive among single men.
Rachel said,
“and ignore the hordes of wonderful bachelors in our midst”
That annoys me too. This idea that over my life I’ve had billions of average to above average, nice, great guys chase me, but I blew them all off for a Brad Pitt clone. Lord, no.
I didn’t have tons of men chasing me down, first off.
The few times I did have cute or average looking guys flirt with me, my self esteem was so low, I avoided them because I could not accept that a decent, stand up, cutie would actually want to date me. I thought “surely there must be some mistake here.”
That in turn goes back to the family I was raised in: a very critical one that told me that I am not good enough, I am flawed, I am garbage.
So, I’m sick of these authors who lecture me (or women like me) that if we’re single, it’s our fault because of this or that reason, one of which is, we supposedly were too demanding, picky, and blew off ten million nice guys to wait on Brad Pitt to ask us out.
Please, that is NOT the reality I lived at all.
(I left two more posts on this thread, Parts 1 and 2. They are at the bottom of the last page of this thread, if you click the link at the bottom of this page that says “Older Comments.”)
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“…because I’m too flabby, arrogant, bimboish…”
Being a bimbo can be a real asset in finding a husband. Especially a Christian, conservative patriarch. Stupid women are more apt to submit unto their lordships and worship them like the gods they imagine themselves to be. 🙂
At Indiana Wesleyan University, having a brain in your head was unimportant in landing a hubby. Sometimes it was even detrimental. I had a friend, Robin. She was a really cute, bubbly blonde. Normally girls like that made me feel inferior and intimidated, but I liked Robin because she was sweet and never treated me badly though I was homely and awkward.
We all knew Robin could have her pick of men and would get engaged to some hunk before her senior year. One who was going into law or medicine. Lo, and behold, in her junior year Robin became extra studious and announced SHE was going to be a doctor! Not a nurse. Gasp!!!
While preparing for med school consumed her times no one wanted to date her after that. Although she was cute, perky and blonde as ever Robin had had the audacity to show she had something between the ears as well.
Last time I saw Robin, she sighed and told me she guessed she’d have to be a celibate.
Too independent! She needed a lobotomy to make her a suitable wife. 😀
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I was just saying in another thread on this blog (_in this post_) that the guy I was engaged to was as dumb as a box of rocks – which doesn’t fit with gender complementarian teaching.
Some comp guy in that thread was apparently saying that men should lead their women folk and read the Bible to them, but my ex could not read well.
Once, when I was in high school, I had a big crush on this guy who was in 2 or 3 of my classes. He was very, very good-looking.
About half way through the school year, the teacher changed the seating chart around in one class, and Mr. Cutie had to sit next to me. He was a nice guy but not so bright. Once I saw how dim he was, I lost my crush on him.
I do not grasp men who are okay dating “pretty but stupid.”
There’s only so much you can stare at a person and enjoy the pretty before that gets boring. I’d want to be able to laugh or having interesting conversation with the person too.
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Yeah. I had some older legalistic preacher admit he looked for a wife dumber than himself in the hopes she would be easier to control–but it didn’t work. This man also condemned celibacy from the pulpit. When I told my dad how surprised and offended I was, he said I was too sensitive. He was only condemning celibate clergy. (aka evul Roman Catholic Priests! We hates em! Grr!!!) I thought he meant this too. But his words and terminology weren’t clear enough; it sounded as if he were condemning all people who weren’t getting any. Ironically he and his group were so prudish they’d have choked on their pearls if I’d pointed this out. Only the women didn’t wear ungodly adornments like jewelry. They pinned bunches of flowers, lace and ribbons on their dresses instead. Lol.
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I do want to say, it really bothers me when supposedly Christian people talk solely of looks in reference to people, single or married (ie, the look at my ‘hot wife’ pastor bro type). Attraction is a part of the selection part, but aside from the fact that it is highly subjective, being good looking/hot is not the end all and be all of Christian life. In fact, it is not important at all.
(aside from that, I decided that there are a lot of people of varying levels of attractiveness both single and married. So that’s clearly not the issue one way or the other).
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I have a problem with an article some dude wrote that used fat shaming techniques to cure church singles of their unacceptable marital status. Yes greed/gluttony is a sin, but he spent all the article condemning fat people for unsightliness rather than the sin that may or may not have been behind it.
It’s okay to be greedy as long as you’re cute! It’s great to be a super model look alike who blows her income on the latest trends in clothes and jewelry rather than helping the poor. Appearances are all that matter to some nominal Christians.
And there’s research now that fat shaming does not work. Telling someone, “You’re fat, ugly and unloveable,” 100 times a day will not lead to long-term weight loss. I don’t know about you, but I’m flabbergasted.
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You’re too fat/my wife is hot are two sides of the same, superficial coin.
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Daisy so glad to see your posting you always make me smile and or laugh. Rachel N. thanks for your comments. Still reading, tough subject but thanks for bringing to the forefront. Is any church and it’s leadership living the God of the Bible? Just wondering!
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@Daisy
“…he redefined “fornication” to exclude nudie pictures as a category, so he ends his article by arguing that a man viewing nudie pics is NOT a biblical grounds for a woman to divorce.”
Even though men should not look at the pictures, it can’t be fornication because you need 2 people to have sex. It’s like you reading “romance” novels that always have fornication in it. And even if it is a married couple in the novel, you then become a voyeur peeping tom.
I know that you will say that Jesus said if you lust at a women its adultery.
Well if a woman doesn’t obey her husband, or patriarchal hierarchy, then you need to be burnt as a witch because The Bible says “for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.
And by the way, there is no such thing as “complementarian” & “egalitarian”.
There is just patriarchy. Its like saying that you can either be a “rapist, sodomite” Christian or a “straight law abiding” Christian. There is only the Christian way.
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You want to burn us as witches, huh? Okay. After you get stoned, and I don’t mean high on marijuana. I don’t read romance novels ever. Bunch of lies and nonsense, women who waste their time on this trash might just as well be playing house with plastic Barbie dolls.
How much time do you spend gawking lustfully after bikini clad women on the beach while your wife watches in anguish? But, hey you’re normal. Not some queer. If she weren’t a fat, ugly cow you wouldn’t have to deal with this. She made you do it.
Complementarian or self righteous Pharisee? Btw, my Dad is a patriarch. He doesn’t gawk at other women. Nor does he spank Mom. He also has nothing good to say about those abusive monsters you go to great lengths to defend.
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@ “Michael, setting the record straight”
I wouldn’t be surprised if Julie Anne puts you in the Dog House.
Michael said,
No, Jesus defined adultery as motive and thought life, not just action – so a guy looking at a woman in lust would be considered fornication.
I don’t read romance novels, dude.
Michael said,
I’m not a married woman.
The only person the Bible asks or tells women to obey is God. Human men are not God.
Putting all that aside, the Bible does not tell married women to “obey” their husbands. There is also nothing in the Bible about husbands “leading their wives.”
The Bible asks women to submit to their husbands, with the expectation that the husband will lay down his life for his spouse if need be.
The Bible does not say that submission is something a man can demand from a wife. It’s not yours to demand or ask for.
I don’t practice witch craft… that rule doesn’t even apply today for people who do practice witchcraft, as we are living under grace now, not Old Testament Law.
Your biblical application and hermeneutics are terrible, Michael.
I don’t think men should be allowed to teach or preach the Bible, since they are so terrible at it.
Mike said,
I don’t care what label slaps on to sexism that is slathered in biblical catch phrases, whether you wish to call it “patriarchy” or “complementarianism,” it’s all a bunch of sexist swill.
I did not invent these terms, by the way – they are in common usage among Christians.
Your post was weird, and you seem to have a terribly sexist stick up your behind.
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hee! But he’s ‘setting the record straight’ don’tcha know? Pfft.
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HI – It’s been a while since I’ve been on here. I had posted previously that it’s been a long, long time that I have found a church that I really like. As of now I still feel unsettled, but lately I feel like I may have found a good church. But I don’t know. The church that I’ve recently found seems to have potential and I will stick with it for at least a couple of months (God willing!) and see if it will be good for me or not.
The vast majority of the people attending there are at least 15 years older than I am. There’s not a lot of people there (I would say about 15-20). It could be that way because it’s summer and lots of people are away. A couple of people have been nice to me. It’s very hard for me to fit in to a new place right away. I do have some social anxiety, especially with strangers. There are times when I feel like it has killed me to have a fairly good social life. So, we’ll see what happens.
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One more thing. I need some advice or feedback as to know what I should do, and I would appreciate it if it comes quickly. If I don’t get anything about this, then I’ll handle it on my own.
Next Sunday (the 20th) my friend (whom I had met at a previous church that I went to and had left) will be out of town. In fact, he and his family will be going to Idaho to see the full eclipse on the 21st. Next Sunday from now, I want to go back to that church, where I used to go, and see what the new Pastor is like. I heard one of his sermons on line one time and was impressed.
Should I tell me friend that I want to go there next week? I wonder if my friend will feel hurt that I want to go without him being there? I’d rather just go by myself at that time and maybe talk to some people that I used to know. I don’t want my friend tagging along with me at that time. If I don’t tell my friend, then he will find out anyways because the others would tell him that I was there.
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Hi Tom,
Perhaps you could ask your friend if he is interested in going back. You could say you are planning on checking it out next week and you’ll let him know your thoughts. Then, when he’s back, you could go together. Or, you could not say anything at all and if it comes up you let him know you were interesting in checking it out again. It’s kind of hard to know how he would respond without fully understanding your relationship. Are you expecting a bad reaction if you don’t say anything?
There is nothing wrong with you doing this on your own. You shouldn’t feel like you have to wait for him to go back. I guess it all depends on if you’re concerned about ruining a good relationship.
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To Kathi – Hi. I don’t know if you’ve been on here before or not. Anyway, welcome to this.
First of all, on your first sentence, I’m not quite understanding about my friend going back. He had never left the church. I did. It’s just that he’s going to be gone for a week because of the eclipse next week.
I do think he may react badly if he found out that I went to the church and did not tell him. But I could say that I decided to go there at the last minute. Ironically I told him today that I’m liking the new church that I found for myself.
I just don’t want him tagging along because I feel like he will divert attention from others to me. He is pretty popular there. I never was. In fact, he was a pretty good reason why I left that church. Because I got into good conversations with only a few people; and then my friend would come along and intercept our conversation. I was annoyed by it. Another thing about my friend, that made me want to leave because of him, was that he would at times usher me into doing labor kind of work at the church after the service. I never felt like I wanted to do that. He picked me because I was very young and strong compared to the other people at that church.
I hope I answered your question. Thank you for replying.
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Hi Tom!
I kind of agree with Kathi that there is no reason to feel bad and really no reason your friend should care. Reading your most recent comment, it sounds like you might find it easier to make friends if you show up alone. Sometimes I find that to be true.
you might also have some annoyances that you need to address with your friend, if you decide to go back to that church. But there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries and saying no to things on occasion. When you really start getting in a church, sometimes you start getting a lot of requests and you have to learn to filter them into stuff you can manage. You can’t do everything.
IF you’re worried about him reacting, just say you decided to see what the new preacher was like when he asks and leave it at that. It’s shouldn’t be a big deal.
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Tom –
I misunderstood that your friend is still at the church. If it were me, and he asked why I went when he wasn’t there, I would say that I was interested in hearing the new preacher. Let it be with that. You don’t have to attend with your friend, you are free to attend whenever you choose. His reaction is not your fault.
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To Kathi and Lea – thank you for your nice replies to me. I agree with what you’ve said.
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@ Michael Setting the Record Straight
(who probably isn’t reading this thread any more, but anyway)
I found this while researching another topic and it’s pertinent to what Mike was posting the other day.
From Christianity Today (Link):
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Hmm. Maybe Driscoll thinks we should study porn. Just basic research so we can fulfill our hubby’s every whim in the bedroom like the happy hookers God made us to be.
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Good night, are there people who think Twilight is porn? Did they read it at all? They don’t even have sex until they get married!
I can kind of see a comparison to romance novels, but there are actual emotions and characters developed. Not just sex, sex, sex. Not a true comparison at all.
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And BTW, Kevin DeYoung posted an ‘it’s evil to watch game of throne, because sex’ article. Bless Serving Kids in Japan for commenting regarding pastor like him obsessing over culture stuff and then not caring about the abused in their own congregations.
Maybe focus on real life instead of tv for a while.
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I never called Twilight porn. No more pornographic than other stuff. Idolatry is the real reason I am against these silly, cheesy novels. Mothers, do you really want your daughters contemplating suicide because their “one true love and soul-mate” broke up with them? That’s what that strong, smart well developed Twilight protagonist, Bella, does.
Better have them read Jane Austen. Especially Sense and Sensibility.
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Later in life, the one that speaks to me is Persuasion. However, P&P is still my favorite 😉
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@ Lea,
Things get even more ridiculous and muddied in the world of Christian blogger Tim Challies.
Over a year ago, Challies wrote a blog post where he declared that “even fornicators are virgins now” (the notion being that people who do commit fornication shouldn’t really worry about it), but several months ago, he wrote another blog post where he chided and scolded Christians who watch TV shows that contain scenes of actors pretending to be having sex, especially if those actors are married in real life to other people, not the actor with whom they film the sex scene.
The bottom line? Tim Challies is more concerned over “fake,” for-TV sex than he is “real life” sexual sins by real life people.
Here is a link to the Challies column where he is wigging out about Christians watching fake TV sex (if anyone needs the proof):
–Sex on the Silver Screen – Outsourcing Depravity– (on Tim Challies blog)
-But remember, this is coming from the same guy who said in a much earlier blog post that single adults (in REAL life, not on T.V.) having sex is basically excusable, because God’s grace!, we’re all sinners, etc, and he really did use the phrase, “We’re all virgins now [even fornicators]” in that post.
But fake sex where actors are pretending to have sex for a TV show is what’s really bad, you see.
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Maybe Tim Challies has become a shock jock. A very vocal, opinionated guy. But his opinions vary from week to week. As long as his expressed views shock and offend many people–and the views of the blog go up–Challies is happy.
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Just viewed Tim Challies blog in all its glory. Judging from his description of the TV sex scene, it sounds like he’s familiar with watching them. 🙂
Read another post about 10 issues to resolve before marriage. One is–you guessed it! All the multiple sex partners you must surely have had even if Christian.
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This is so over dramatic. If you had a trauma associated with sex you probably need to discuss it, or if you are very young, but I feel like older couples are probably going to be fine.
But then, I’m past the point of thinking sex before marriage is some huge issue. So maybe daisy and I wouldn’t be in sync on this!
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I should say my dating life the last year or has mostly been divorced dads, so maybe my perspective is just different. Maybe I should read the article.
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The guy I am seeing has had several sex partners. I think he’s nervous because I am physically a virgin. This does bother guys more than anyone wants to admit. But he repented, so I won’t hold it against him since God doesn’t. He may have a kid in Japan. Maybe over 20 now. If he wants to meet the young person I am glad and may join him.
Still honked off at the notion of cheap grace. As Tim Challies presents it. Just sin away young people. Then you can show up at church. Make occasional confessions after services while trying to look sad. Then we can all go to Heaven after all. Yuck yuck! Ain’t’ grace grand!
Remember how our LORD bled and died to redeem us from our sins? No big deal after all cause our sins are so small and forgiveable.
A lot of “redeemed” folks have spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.
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Hmm. for whatever the reason, Ed, who used to post here has been posting to my Daisy blog this evening.
Lea said,
My perspective is that the Bible forbids sex prior to marriage.
I was certainly taught as such as a kid and teen, and I see as an adult that is what the Bible teaches.
However, Christians today have given up on biblical morality, including abstaining before marriage.
It started out with Non-Christian, liberal feminists who went around talking about being “sex positive” and how “slut shaming” is bad. This influenced the liberal Christians online (such as RHE) who began blogging about it, and then your liberal Christians started chortling and making jokes about Christians actually expecting women to stay virgins, and then conservatives like Challies, strangely enough, bought into it and started to parrot it.
My position is that if I am in a stable dating relationship, I’d now be okay with having sex prior to marriage, but, I am not going to deny that the Bible says it’s fornication. That is where I differ from many Christians, especially the liberal ones.
I think many Christians today, and from when I was a teen, were selling a false Gospel of dating, sex, marriage, etc.
They tell you when you are a kid to abstain, save sex for marriage, but when you find yourself still single and a virgin past age 30, the church doesn’t support you at all.
Everything with Christians is about supporting married couples, and they all assume there is no such thing as a virgin adult past age 30.
Well, I am over 40 and still a virgin, and yes, I have a sex drive, and no, God did not “gift me with celibacy” and wipe away all sexual desire.
From what I can gather, Christians are not serious about supporting sexual purity or virginity.
Christians will tell teen girls to stay virgins until marriage, but when that teen girl is a 30 or 40 year old virgin (still not married), those same Christians are assuming she’s just having sex all over the place (even tho she is not), then you have your Challies and RHE types online telling people that virginity is no big deal, so if you have sex before marriage, eh, so what.
Virginity is of no import. No biggie is you fornicate, they say.
And I’m like, but, you guys told me when I was 15 years old that it’s wrong to have sex before marriage, now you’re saying “meh, go ahead who really cares, and everyone is doing it, you may as well too.” -??
There is no consistency from Christians on this.
I don’t see a point in holding out for marriage, should I meet a great guy, and we’re in a stable dating relationship. I have been robbed of any and all reasons to abstain any longer.
Christians don’t really and truly expect anyone over the age of 18 to abstain.
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‘Christians don’t really and truly expect anyone over the age of 18 to abstain.’
GOD is who asked you so kindly to refrain from sex till marriage. YES, it is not easy. Like in life, you have the HAVE’s and the HAVE NOTs.
I’m over 50 and most days I feel my life is over, but I do all I can to wrap my mind around what God has for me if I trust in him.
God offers eternal life. All we know is this life that was giving to us. It is super hard to unwrap our mind from this life and wrap our thoughts around what God is offering us. I struggle everyday with feeling everything BUT what God tells us to feel.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
If you can defeat your flesh and what you think you need, you will accomplish much.
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Rachel, in my twenties I had multiple sex partners and I was a sincere believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, grace is marvellous for without it we would ALL be up the creek.
The reason why I had multiple sex partners was likely due to feelings of immense rejection from my parents. I wanted to be loved and of course if you are twenty and cute you will have no shortage of young guys telling you so.
It hurts to read your comment because I was that person. I’ve been there… and the sex meant nothing to me… it was intimacy and LOVE i was looking for. Of course, i didn’t get it… but if you think I was flapping a grace card whilst doing the deed then you are wrong.
Many believers struggle with sexual sins. It’s easy to be snarky about it when you’re not that person but I can remember my state of mind at the time and it wasn’t mentally healthy.
Maybe a little more grace?
We are all struggling in one way or another.
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There are so many things wrapped up in this kind of teaching…you have the other side where you can start telling people they are worthless because they did have sex and that isn’t right either.
I don’t believe anyone should be shamed for what they’ve done, so long as they have not been hurting others. Adultery, abuse…those are sins that hurt someone else. I’m drawing a hard line on those, and feeling a lot of grace for the rest I guess.
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I meant to say, I also do not believe people should be shamed for not having sex.
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Great points Daisy! :-)’Since you no longer actually see yourself as a Christian and are willing to date pagans, trying to “hold out for the honeymoon” would irritate most of the gentlemen. You might even gain a reputation as a tease. I am not being sarcastic either.
I need to blog about why the “True Love Waits” campaign failed. Basically they promised specific carnal rewards for obedience. When God didn’t make good on the promises well meaning fools had made on His behalf many singles felt cheated.
I am a virgin. I may be marrying my best guy pal in the future. I am determined NOT TO WEAR WHITE. Seriously. Odd how many people find this scandalous even though my sexual integrity is not questioned. 😉
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I’m happy for you, Rachel!
I think people like white because it’s tradition, and no other reason. But you do you.
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Yeah. I’m an irritating person who examines the meanings behind traditions. If I don’t like them I do something else.
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Rachel said,
Rachel, maybe your heart is in the right place here, but it sounds weirdly insulting to me.
(I honestly cannot tell if you were genuinely attempting to be supportive of me in some way, or if that was meant in a snarky tone to put me down? I don’t know how to read the tone or motive behind it.)
I’m not quite sure what I am. I cannot slap a label on myself.
I have not rejected Jesus Christ.
But I’ve been in the valley of indecision that last few years, seeing that a lot of things I was taught about the faith, Bible, etc, is a bunch of swill that doesn’t work in real life. I don’t know how true Christianity is.
It’s very difficult for me to articulate my views about religion these days.
I’m willing to date or marry almost any guy, provided he treats me right.
His proclamation of belief does not matter – there are so many Christian men who beat their wives, cheat on them, etc, that a profession of faith apparently does not change most men’s lives.
I’ve occasionally seen an atheist here or there who live out Christian morals and ideals better then some regular church attending Christians… I’ve also seen Christian women who married atheists say so. They say their first husband was a Bible believing Christian who treated them like trash, but they divorced that guy to marry an atheist, and the atheist, they say, acts more like a Christian than the Christian first husband did.
Re this:
I’m still currently a virgin, Rachel.
I’m not going to give it up on a first date. And not for just any guy.
You make it sound like I now have zero standards and would spread it around like I’m cheap.
I’m more like this woman:
Woman [Suzannah] Reveals Why she Refuses to Hook-up with Men ‘For Fun’ (article on Daily Mail site)
One of several reasons I remain single isn’t entirely the virginity issue, I’d say the unrealistic Christian “Equally Yoked” teaching, coupled with the Christian idea of, “Just pray and have faith in the Lord, and he’ll send you a husband!” are partially to blame.
I had the opportunity to be with a good looking, successful guy before, but he was Roman Catholic, so we could not have been “equally yoked,” according to the Baptist tradition in which I had been raised.
Had I not believed in the Equally Yoked garbage I was taught as a kid and a teen, I could likely be happily married to that guy now.
I may never meet a decent guy. There is no guarantee saying that just because I’ve modified my views that I will meet a great guy and also have a roll in the hay with him.
It’s super easy to be idealistic about holding on to your virginity and the Equally Yoked teaching stuff when you’re in your 20s or 30s and/or already are engaged to a Christian man, as you apparently are.
If you are over age 45, as I am, tired of waiting and being single, with no male prospects in sight, all that idealism gets chucked out the door, as does the “pie in the sky” stuff where Christians try to console your still-single status by spiritualizing it, saying things like, “but Jesus will reward you in the afterlife for staying a virgin your whole life!”
Um, no. I want a husband now and to be having sex, I don’t want a “reward” after I’m dead for being single and chaste.
I’m not so picky any more about who I marry religion wise, so long as the guy is not abusive to me.
But that doesn’t mean I’ve turned into a raving, hormonal whore who is going to sleep with every man she meets, and on the first date, either.
For any single Christian woman out there who desire marriage, waiting, praying, and doing the “Equally Yoked” thing is only acting as a hamper to you getting married, and it’s a waste of your time.
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I think it was the reference to dating a ‘pagan’.
If we were all sitting in a bar, I would give further thoughts on this whole topic of sex, because I have them, but I’m not really interested in going into detail online.
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Lea said,
The problem is the liberal Christians (who have now influenced many of the conservative ones, like Challies, on this issue) have over-corrected this.
They have over-compensated.
In attempting to cheer up all the people who have had sex prior to marriage, who say they may have felt shamed over it, after hearing a “purity” lecture in a Sunday school class one time 10 – 20 years ago (which is a very common complaint I’ve seen), the pendulum has fully swung way too far in the other direction, where there are online diatribes against virginity and celibacy, ones written by Christians, of all people.
That hurts my feelings. But, apparently, my feelings don’t matter – only cheering up those who have “diddled”- prior- to- marriage feelings matter.
If Christians are not going to fully revere virginity (and at times mock those who have abstained, or mock the concept of virginity itself, as they occasionally do, on other sites I’ve been on)….
And if Christians are no longer going to speak out against fornication as being a sexual sin (because some say a purity lecture they heard in church youth class when they were 17 made them feel uncomfortable), there is no reason at all for me to abstain.
Also, it’s making a joke out of my decades-long- by- now celibacy and making it moot.
I could have been boinking like a cat in heat since my teen years, apparently.
Had I known when I was ages 15, 18, 25, that nobody in Christianity would be defending virginity these days, and cheering me on and supporting me in this, had I foreseen as a teen that my later in life virginity would be brushed aside as though it does not matter…
I think I may have been happy to have sex prior to marriage years ago (provided it was in a loving, committed relationship).
I don’t think Christians who go on these anti-purity stances realize how much damage they are not only doing to biblical sexual ethics, but how demoralizing they are to people such as myself who are literal virgins over the age of 35.
To put it another way to the Christian community:
Don’t tell me when I’m 15 years old that I should stay a virgin until marriage, only to turn around and tell 45 year old me that my virginity is no big deal. But that is what they are doing. I feel as though I was lied to.
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@ Lea.
I left another comment for you, but it is not showing up on the blog, not that I can see. I even refreshed the page, but I don’t see my post to you.
I didn’t use any bad language in it, so I don’t know why it’s not appearing.
I was just saying I found the entirety of Rachel’s paragraph that I quoted off putting, not just the “pagan” part.
But then, I am not sure what her motive was. Maybe I am misunderstanding her.
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I know it does. I don’t think its necessary to mock anyone for their choices in this area. Nor is it kind.
I disagree with you, though, in that I think the overcorrection to an extent was necessary, but should have stopped short of making fun of anyone who didn’t have sex. That’s prevalent enough in popular culture.
Everyone’s feelings should matter! We all made choices, for whatever our reasons. We can make different ones now, or not. I think I’ve said before, I would have been a little more wild as a teenager if I had it do over again….but then again maybe not because I think I’m temperamentally wired to be risk averse.
But here is the thing I’ve decided about life as I get older, I have never regretted the things I’ve done. Even the things that were obvious mistakes. Because I learned from them, I grew, I experienced. The only things I’ve ever regretted are the things I didn’t do.
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Will look for it later, thanks. Pagan just jumped out at me.
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Believe me, I was trying to be supportive in my weird “Tim the Toolman” way. If you are not sure where you are spiritually it’s probably hard to know what you want.
Not sure if my own situation will work out. If it does it will not be a story book romance. Poverty, poor health, emotional baggage from years of celibacy. In the end my only reward will be a smile on the face of my One True Love when He says, “Well done good and faithful servant!”
So
Stories about how God may grant you a marriage partner en route to the cemetery, when you’re too old and sick to enjoy it have always struck me as incredibly stupid. As though that should console you for years of heart ache and loneliness when it can’t. Nothing this side of eternity can make it up.
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Thanks for the shoutout, Lea. I was so happily surprised when Todd Wilhelm highlighted my post on Twitter. Glad to know that he found it relevant and worthy of mention.
Can’t be sure how many people saw it on DeYoung’s comment board, or if it’s still there. I know my last two comments on that article didn’t last more than a few minutes. RevKev doesn’t seem to appreciate my presence there, or my talking about his buddies.
I, too, wish that DeYoung, Challies, Piper and so many others would get their priorities straight.
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SKIJ, every time I see you commenting at other sites, I’m woohooing. You have a way of cutting to the chase that (hopefully) makes people think. Keep going!
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Ah, well. I left a comment as well, but didn’t pop back in to see if it was still there.
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