There is nothing that happens in your life that God does not permit – – even abuse?
We got in a heated discussion in the comments on the last post regarding the determinist belief that nothing happens in our lives that God does not permit. For people who have been abused, that is a tough pill to swallow. For abuse survivors, please be careful. This discussion could be triggering.
This determinist belief seems to contradict the idea of a kind and loving Father who protects His children. Gail asked Pastor Wade Burleson specific questions and I thought it would be best to put them in a new blog post to keep this topic together.
Here is Gail’s comment to Wade which I also sent to him in an e-mail:
Wade,
I just listened to one of the sermons that Oasis linked on the other thread. I have a few questions & observations. I will be quoting some of what you said to clear up any confusion to those who didn’t listen.
“Every affliction in your life is of the Lord, all of it is.”
I was molested at five years old by my father, by another again at seven the list doesn’t stop there, for time sake I will be brief. Do you believe child rape is a affliction?
I do not understand what you meant when you said “affliction is of the Lord” but “not from the Lord.” What does that even mean?
“Nothing happens in your life that God either permits, promotes or prohibits”
Okay, so God could have prohibited my abuse? Or He permitted it? Wow, that sounds like God was implicit in what tore me to shreds as a girl.
Can you understand why your words cause turmoil inside of me?
I trust that you meant what you said in your sermon, that you are learning, growing from this interaction also with Oasis.
Would you consider that perhaps you miscommunicated with her? You keep insisting that you are not in the wrong at all, that she has her perception which makes it her reality, which implies at least to me that she is not telling the truth.
I will be out the rest of the afternoon, if I don’t respond I am not ignoring you, just have a full day.
Wade responded back to my e-mail and gave me permission to post his response to Gail’s questions:
I can sure understand that there are triggers for anyone who has undergone abuse. I would like to answer Gail’s questions, and feel free if you would like to use them.
(1). “Every affliction in your life is of the Lord, all of it is”
God says “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7). The word disaster is better translated (in my opinion) “affliction.”
However, there must be some caveats and qualifications with any understanding of this Isaiah passage of scripture. The Bible never contradicts itself – ever. We also read “For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone (to do evil); But each one is tempted (to do evil) when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (James 1:13-14). So when I (or anyone) says God “affliction is of the Lord” it NEVER means He causes, designs, authors, or creates EVIL.” Not at all.
“Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights” (James 1:17). God only creates good. Man and fallen angels create evil. When I say “Affliction is of God” I mean God is able to take what man creates (evil) and orchestrate good from it. Evil is not good, nor is good evil – rather, God is able to turn what man meant for evil into good. God is never responsible for evil. He is only and always the author of good.
(2). “I was molested at five years old by my father, by another again at seven the list doesn’t stop there, for time sake I will be brief. Do you believe child rape is an affliction?”
Rape is evil. Rape is a crime. The rapist alone is responsible for the unspeakable horror. What I believe is that somehow, someway, God will produce good from evil. For example, the punishment of the rapist at the Judgment will be a good thing. The ultimate healing of the victim of rape through the love, mercy and kindness of God will be a good thing. The question that you seem to be asking is simple: “DID GOD CAUSE THE RAPE?” My answer: “GOOD GOD NO.”
I do believe that God allows evil to occur (that He doesn’t cause) because He will ultimately bring about an eternal greater good.
My example would be the beheading of the Coptic Christians in Lebanon. Did God cause this to happen? No. Will ultimate good come from it? Yes.
“For we know that God works all things together for good to them who are the called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
(3). “I do not understand what you meant when you said ‘affliction is of the Lord’ but ‘not from the Lord. What does that even mean?”
It simple means that God does not create, cause or author evil (‘from the Lord’), but God will allow and permit evil because of an ultimate greater good that is coming, including the display of His holiness and justice in the punishment of the sinner and His mercy, goodness and kindness in the redemption of the victim.
(4). “Can you understand your words cause turmoil inside me?”
Yes. Absolutely. There’s wisdom in simply being there for someone whose been abused in the beginning, showing love. However, if I didn’t believe that ultimately the only hope of real recovery from deep, intense scars of past abuse is the knowledge that good IS COMING (the abuse is NOT GOOD), but good is coming, then I would remain silent about these things forever. I only speak of what I see Romans 8:28 to teach when asked. I never offer it until asked.
(5). “Would you consider that perhaps you miscommunicated with her (Oasis)?”
Of course. I also have no hesitation in apologizing. I just need to be shown (because she said it was in writing), and in my opinion, I have never – ever – said “God designs sexual abuse.” I have only and always said “God designs good” and I do not believe in any form or fashion sexual abuse is good.
Wade also added the following:
I am out for the rest of the week. This is all I can offer. I would suggest that those who would like to read further what I believe to go to the link “The Prince of Evil Overcome by the King of Good.” http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/10/the-prince-of-evil-overruled-by-king-of.html
photo credit: [As seen on my run.] via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Ann,
Trying to use scripture to rationalize sin in this world will always fall short. Our job as Believers is to be available. Amen
Amen!!
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Thank you, Kathi. We live 2k miles apart, but I’m praying and sending out letters of encouragement. I pray that they accept Jesus as their Savior, even now.
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Brenda, why is there no explaining why bad things happen? Seems to me you already answered your own question, when you said evil people do things and are responsible. Just wondering.
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Oasis,
God is not unknown. He came to this world as a baby and lived life like we do. He had people who wanted to kill Him even as a baby. Many children lost their lives in that attempt. He was thought to be a liar and a fraud. He was tortured, persecuted and gave up His life for us on the Cross. This was witnessed by many reliable people and written down for us to know about. Jesus is alive today. He overcame death. I find this to be very good news. He knows how we feel because He lived it. He is trustworthy in all things when we surrender to Him. He can make us new creatures. He mends broken hearts today, just as He did while he was here. I find this to be such good news.
The Gospel of Jesus is truth and incredibly good news.
In no way do I minimize your pain. I have had similar experiences. I have felt that pain and anger. Rightfully, so. My choice was to give it all over to Christ and let Him lead my life. It keeps getting better and better all the time.
((((HUGS)))))
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Many of your answers here reminds me of the story of Lazarus and his death in John 11.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 “Where have you laid him?” he asked.
“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
then we have:
Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it. ” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”
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Oasis,
Bad things happen because we are in a fallen world. I cannot explain why people think up the evil things that they do. I tried to figure out why my wicked step father did the things he did for years. wasting all that time was keeping me from doing good and I was relying on my own understanding instead of putting my faith in Jesus where it needed to be. The last time I saw wicked step father before he died he was still trying to touch me in an inappropriate manner. By this time I was 50 and he was a shrunken old man who didn’t know what common things in the home were called. He had Alzheimer’s, was no longer the frightening huge ogre that I remembered as a girl and I pushed him away from me. For him this was normal behavior. He saw nothing wrong with what he did. I had realized a long time ago that it was not. It was wrong and completely evil. I believe he died without knowing God and a special place was made for the wickedness that he did while he was here. I would not wish that on anyone, but I could not stop it either. We all have choices to make. I chose to forgive for my own heart’s sake and follow Jesus wherever that may take me.
Right now I think it is about 4 hours past my bedtime.
I hope only good things for you. You deserve Love and Joy in your life.
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Brenda, agree with you that God is not unknown and that he did those things, and is trustworthy (since he has revealed his character). Not sure how that answers my question, though…
As for pain, not sure what you are saying there, either.
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Just saw your newest comment, Brenda. Thanks for your reply!
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Another Tom said,
But the way I see Calvinism presented by many Calvinists is kind of like this:
“Saying that God cares, God knows, and God has the power to do something and yet he specifically chooses to cause that (evil/ bad/ hurtful) event to happen (for whatever reason), and that sure sounds like determinism to me.”
Now, I don’t know about the Wade B’s of the world, but the manner in which I see Calvinism presented and explained by other Cal’s on the internet makes it sound like God is the ultimate cause of bad things, or logic leads one back to being the cause.
I’ve heard many Cal’s online on other blogs and forums say that they find it comforting to think or to know that God causes the car crash that killed their children, or the heart attack that killed their father, or whatever.
I personally don’t get a lot of comfort, personally, by that thought, but find it creepy that God would supposedly be causing car wrecks and heart attacks, and at that, for “his glory,” as so many Cal’s like to crow. That sounds like an uncaring, unloving, sadistic, cruel, and narcissistic deity to me.
Yes, the narcissistic part of it also bowls me over. It’s not enough that God himself personally caused that car to flip over and kill everyone in your family, but he did it supposedly for “his glory.” -???
I don’t see how any of this brings God glory.
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Cindy C said,
“Some of you may not like the idea that God allows evil to exist”
I don’t know if that’s the issue, but that, as I said above, Calvinists often present the situation as “God causes evil to exist.” Or, that is where Calvinist theology can lead to, if taken to its logical conclusion.
At the end of the day, in Calvinistic thought, from what I have been able to gather from reading their posts on other sites and here in the past, humanity is free only to do evil, never good.
Furthermore, God choose from eternity past who would be saved and who would go to Hades, so the people who are now doing the evil don’t truly have a free choice in their actions, and they are not given a choice to accept Jesus and get into Heaven… because they are not one of the elect. God has the whole thing rigged from the get-go (according to Cal’s), and nobody has a real say in any of it.
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Another Tom said, “I keep hearing how bad and awful and “deterministic” it is to say that God allows evil.”
Because the way many Calvinists portray the situation, it’s not that God “allows” evil and tragedy to happen, but that God causes it to happen, or that God is the ultimate cause of evil.
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Wade B said,
“(3). I’m asking you if He knew. If He didn’t, as I sense some of you might say, I would like for you to give me the reasons why you say God doesn’t know.”
Is this about Open Theism, that God supposedly cannot or does not see into the future but is only a really great guesser? I myself so far as I remain a Christian at all (I’m partially agnostic), do not subscribe to Open Theism.
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Debbie Kaufman said,
“Dash: I did not read your comment as Julie Anne did a good job explaining.
Wade is not Calvinist.”
He’s not? I thought he said he was a Calvinist at his blog at some stage, or Dee and Deb’s blog? Did he used to be one and then stopped?
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Another Tom said,
Maybe so, but I think many people are going to find the Calvinistic type response even more repulsive than the standard Non-Calvinistic, Christian response.
What’s creepier, more infuriating, and harder to comprehend for the average Joe out there:
1. the God who knew but didn’t stop the deed
or
2. the God who knew and who was also was the ultimate cause of the deed (and because he wanted the evil to bring him glory)
I think choice 2 is going to be a tad more revolting, and harder to understand and accept than option 1 to lots of folks, though your average atheist will not be satisfied with either one, I would guess.
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I think there is a tendency to rationalize everything, as if everything must make sense, fit into a box, be filed correctly. Reformed faith (fatalism/ determinism/ God in control) neatly, efficiently does just that. It rationalizes evil. It sends evil into the “it’s part of God’s plan” category. God is taking care of it then, that’s the solution to this equation. It helps us move on. While on the surface that may seem safe & comforting, I think it shifts responsibility & makes us naïve to & sanitizes evil & abuse. Maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to move on or explain it into a neat box or give it to God. We are the mouth, hands, feet of Jesus to the hurting in this world.
When pure evil choices are made, the bottom line is that it’s senseless. It’s irrational. It is without excuse. We should be highly disturbed into action. The evil choice is not meaningful at all. The person who has been abused is meaningful. The evil choice is not turned into good, it does not cause good. Evil isn’t right. It’s forever wrong. When someone triumphs, that also is a decision & a choice. It is good. Whether we triumph over evil or excel during good, both are independent choices. The evil didn’t cause someone to triumph or excel or do good. The person chose to triumph or excel despite evil.
When I hear the word “had” connected to evil as in “Why did it have to happen?”, “I feel bad that it had to happen.” I always cringe. Evil does not have to happen. Ever. Evil action is a decision. It’s a choice.
Hurting others is wrong, senseless, irrational, thoughtless. I can’t see it differently than that.
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Lydia said,
“What bothers me, too, is using scripture as if it is the 4th person of the Trinity.”
Oh heck, I’d say some Christians boot out the Holy Spirit almost entirely, and make the Bible the Third Person of the Trinity.
I’m not a supporter of Charismatic / Word of Faith theology, but those who believe in those views at least acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is alive and well today. They don’t relegate every single last thing to the Bible, as other Christians do.
I’m really confused by Christians who are so insanely devoted to sola scriptura (and yes, I agree with sola scriptura) that they make no room for the Holy Spirit to work in people’s lives.
It’s as if they almost deny that God can and work in people’s lives today, that everyone has to just read the Bible only and hope to find an answer or cure in the pages of a book.
Christians who are nutso kooky crazy in favor of sola scriptura often sound like Deists to me. They believe in a God, but don’t believe he acts in the world today, he is confined to a book only.
Yes, the Bible is a great book and all, but when you are undergoing a very deep and painful time in life, the Bible does not always contain the answers you seek, and you need to have a personal experience with God, to feel his presence and to know that he is there. Bible reading never did that for me.
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Oasis said,
“There. Is. NO. Excuse. For. Rape. PERIOD.”
There are adults alive now who were conceived via rape.
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Lydia said,
““You are both sinners” they were told by the pastor. You are both guilty. Therefore the real evil is watered down.”
What I don’t understand about the equivocation they do. Even the Bible (and today’s laws in the USA) recognizes there are differing levels of evil, and responsibility.
In the OT, God said that someone who intentionally puts another person to death was to also be put to death, IIRC, but, if a man accidentally killed another man, God said do not kill him, but allow him to go live in some other city.
Even today, in the USA, our law is set up to see some crimes as being more serious than others… and motive and intent are taken into account, as well.
I don’t understand why a lot of Calvinists like to equate, therefore, all sins as being equally bad when the Bible itself does not do this.
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Kathi said,
This is the best solution.
The Bible says you are to weep with those who weep (show compassion, give help), not give them a theology lesson.
See the book of Job in the Old Testament, and how, when his friends just sat silent with him, they were of great help to Job, but the minute they opened their mouths and started giving Job theology lessons and telling him he was to blame for what befell him, they became useless and “miserable comforters.”
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Oasis said,
I don’t think anyone who says “I don’t know” means it in that way. I find it odd that you would choose to view that response in that light.
I think saying “I don’t know” demonstrates a humbleness and humility.
I would rather hear “I don’t know” from a Christian on these sorts of topics than someone act as if they have all the definitive answers, and pontificate about some systematic theological reason (which comes across as being cold and unfeeling).
Actually, when I am hurting, I just want a friend to console me, not give me Bible lessons. It’s not until after the pain wears off that I may find myself wondering the “why’s” and go seeking answers.
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Debbie K said, quoting the Bible, “4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it. ”
Yes, but that story had a happy ending – Jesus raised the dead Lazarus to life. Telling people in this thread (who were raped by their father or someone else) that the rape was caused by God to “show his glory” is a different ball game altogether.
My mother died of cancer and other health problems a few years ago, in spite of my prayers for her healing, and her prayers for her own healing, and many people at different churches were praying for her healing. I know I would find zippo comfort at the idea that God causing (or even “allowing”) her to die was for “his glory.”
I would actually find it fairly repulsive that God killed my mother to bring himself glory.
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“There are adults alive now who were conceived via rape.”
Yes, your point? That is still no excuse for rape!
“I find it odd that you would choose to view that response in that light.”
What can I say? That is where some ideas and thinking do lead. My mind goes there automatically, because in spite of everything, in spite of the conclusions I have come to, and the help from God and a few very wonderful people, I am still terrified at times, deathly afraid of losing Jesus. 😦 It is my worst fear that someday I will discover that he really is the monster people describe him to be, that he had evil intentions toward me and cannot be trusted. 😦
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“I always cringe. Evil does not have to happen. Ever. Evil action is a decision. It’s a choice.”
Cringe here, too, A Mom. Evil is entirely unnecessary! I love your comment and agree with every word. You practically read my mind.
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A Mom,
Hurting others is wrong, senseless, irrational, thoughtless. I can’t see it differently than that.
Yep!! 100% correct. Unfortunately, there are far too many people in the world with minds that think otherwise and take joy in harming others and think they are completely right in doing so. Their views are mostly entitlement. They can treat others anyway they choose. It has been going on since the Cain and Able scandal. In the past, I have asked God why about different situations. What I came to understand is we live in a fallen world and an individual’s heart and mind rule the body. There is God who is good, loving and longsuffering. He gives us His Spirit for conviction and guidance. Then their is Satan who is rebellious and evil. We all get to choose who we will follow. Where there is Light there can be no darkness. I choose Light.
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Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I am politely bowing out of this dialogue, respecting your right to express your views and opinions on God and the existence of evil without any reinterpretation or biased judgments from me, and kindly asking for the same respect from you.
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I wish there were satisfying answers to the question of why God does not stop all evil. Those of us who have been abused struggle with the question of, “Where was God?” and many more questions beside. “Struggle” is an understatement. For some of us, it feels like an anguish-filled battle to the death.
It’s not a theological discussion for me. Bottom line: theological constructs didn’t get me through my dark nights of the soul. If Calvinism — or its antithesis — keeps you warm at night, that’s wonderful…but I prefer to place my faith in a Living Being, even one as incomprehensible and complex as God, rather than in the doctrinal box people try to shove Him into.
I’ve had to make peace with the fact that if my puny brain could comprehend the ways of God to my satisfaction, He wouldn’t be much of a god. Some days, it’s an uneasy peace. Other days, it’s wonderful beyond words.
I wrote about my own personal grappling with these questions here: http://rebeccaprewett.com/2014/09/22/why-didnt-god-stop-them/
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“And we must learn that, as we run the race of the Christian life, everything that comes our way is designed by God for our ultimate good.”
“He (the conductor) does not PLAY THE NOTES, but He carefully orchestrates when and where the notes can be played, and if one note is played contrary to his design, he steps in to stop it.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/03/09/echurchwartburg-3-10-13/
I wasn’t going to bother posting this, but some people encouraged me to go ahead and put it here, so…might as well. Anyway, it was too silly of me to click on this thread…but the subject matter screamed out at me! BeenThereDoneThat had the right idea, though. 🙂 Gone now.
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“I am politely bowing out of this dialogue, respecting your right to express your views and opinions on God and the existence of evil without any reinterpretation or biased judgments from me, and kindly asking for the same respect from you.”
I am confused by this. I totally understand your wanting to bow out and respect that but not sure what it means by asking us not to do as you with reinterpretation and biased judgements. Does this mean we cannot quote your public words as a public communicator and discuss them unless you are commenting? If so, then why be a public communicator? Doesn’t that come with the territory? You are not the first pastor I have seen make this request and it always confuses me since they are public communicators for a living.
There is a cognitive dissonance in teaching everything is by God’s design, predestined and the focus always being put on his Sovereignty/Power but then insisting God has nothing to do with evil.
My position is we have focused on the wrong things when it comes to Yahweh and totally misunderstood Him. Part of His love is creating us with free will. A love relationship is never about power but always about trust and love.
We are, as adults, hugely responsible for the evil/wrong doing we look away from in our little corners of the world and keep insisting we are powerless to do anything. We become desensitized to it. We rationalize it. We say that God has good to come from it. But why aren’t we dealing with the wrongs correctly? Why aren’t we dealing with the evil? Look at SGM, Driscoll, JD Hall, James McDonald and so many others and there is a mixture of wrong doing, evil and protection from their colleagues for a long time. James McDonald has been invited to speak at the SBC convention pastors conference. It is ridiculous how much of a blind eye is turned toward wrong doing. (Not to mention his teaching that congregationalism (voting) is from Satan)
The wrong doing to others and our rushing to exonerate those types( especially those in ministry who make a living representing Jesus) is crushing to victims and is hardening our own souls with cheap grace. What about those who are wronged by these people? Do they matter? They are told to forgive and move on and then they are the sinners if they don’t comply. I say we should look at patterns of wrong doing to others as red flags and encourage those types to find the real Jesus but not while teaching about Him. And I do not think any of it was by God’s design.
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May we all remember Oasis in our prayers today. That said, I am confident that many here have been doing so. She must be exhausted & triggered by reliving how she was deeply hurt by a doctrine that wounds the wounded.
May the Lord bless you and keep you, Oasis.
Oasis, May the Lord make his face to shine upon you,
and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you,
and give you peace, Oasis.
Oasis, You have put words to the pain that victims go through. Love your voice, love your heart.
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Debbie Kaufman on April 15, 2015 at 8:50 PM
You can’t take one event and apply it to every illness of every person from that point on and say that it is for the purpose of Jesus being glorified. What happened that day with Lazarus was for a purpose that Jesus made perfectly clear to those who were present. Jesus did not then go on to declare that every sickness was for Jesus go be glorified.
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Thank you, Oasis, for posting this link. I really appreciated Patrice’s comments and thoughts.
There were also 2 comments from Wade that I appreciated. This is not a man who expects us to buy his words hook, line, and sinker. You are free to come to your own conclusions. With my abusive past, I cannot some to the same conclusions as determinists. It makes God to be evil and that doesn’t jive with a merciful and living father to me.
Anyway, here are 2 comments from Wade that I found helpful and certainly more freeing than many pastors who insist if you don’t believe their way, you are wrong:
And this one:
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“When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.” Matthew 9:36
This is the heart of God. This shows His character. He can be trusted. He is trustworthy. He is loving and sovereign. Good and just. Why there is evil? I believe we will have to trust God to explain injustice and unspeakable evil in eternity. Until then we are left with trusting God because He has shown Himself our champion at the cross.
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” I believe we will have to trust God to explain injustice and unspeakable evil in eternity”
I think He will be asking us why we put kept putting up with it or looking the other way or rationalizing it away.
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Julie Anne,
Where can the many hurting, like Oasis, comment or silently read about differing opinions & ideas about God & evil in a safe way without being told what to think? Discussion or even just reading is helpful to healing. For some, asking a question or expressing their opinion is the start of feeling like they matter & that they have value. Many silent ones have been marginalized or shunned for asking honest questions. It’s a mountain climb to try one more time. They aren’t trying to be rebellious. They are trying to understand. They are thinking. They want to engage. Isn’t that good? Or would we rather have them walk away altogether? We show we care by listening & thinking & discussing with them. These are hard questions. We are obligated to do the hard thinking & difficult discussing if we’re with them & want to help.
Thought-provoking discussion isn’t happening, yet that’s what everyone craves. It’s not only the hurting ones who are desperate for it. IMO, we owe the same to our children, co-workers, friends, etc. Hard questions & thinking should be encouraged. It helps us form & strengthen our opinions in an unbiased way. And if my belief needs to be changed after thinking & honest discussion, then I do that as well. I have retired my YEC & reformed beliefs. I no longer pledge allegiance to a system, movement, or theology. I want a relationship with a wonderful, loving God & others. I want to truly love & truly be loved.
That Oasis chose to bring up this much need discussion here, knowing some would disagree, says volumes. It’s not easy-peasy, but she is healing. She is stronger in expressing her own ideas. And YOUR place feels safe to her.
Oasis – I love you.
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“I think He will be asking us why we put kept putting up with it or looking the other way or rationalizing it away.”
I think that is why Christians are supposed to care for the widow, orphan, the hurting, the poor, those who’ve been abused. They are all around us.
Some hurt is because of seeing loved ones suffer with cancer or other health issues. Sometimes there isn’t anything we can do except practical helping with chores, meals and other tasks. While it seems that cancer is an injustice, it isn’t the unspeakable horror of child abuse, rape, domestic abuse etc.
People are hurting all around us. I know from experience the pain of casual remarks that cause offense when none was intended.
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“People are hurting all around us. I know from experience the pain of casual remarks that cause offense when none was intended.”
Kay my thoughts were somewhere else and I did not explain. I think we will answer for supporting “corrupt priests”. The evangelical church in America has become a cesspool of image, cult of personality and ignoring wrong doing and evil done to others. They are more interested in our money, our allegiance and our admiration of them than they are with justice and love. They circle the wagons for each other propping up all sorts wrong doing. .
Why are we responsible? Because we are supposed to be growing and maturing in Christ. We have no mediator. The pastor/leader is not our guide, the Holy Spirit is. I really wish I had understood this mainy years ago. We cannot turn all this around until we take responsibility for our part and part of that is coming along side those who are still crawling out of the pit of abuse and fighting for them until they can find their voice.
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I’ve always found Lamentations 3 to be helpful when trying to reconcile some of God’s character traits. It seems appropriate here.
1
I am the man who has seen affliction
by the rod of the Lord’s wrath.
2
He has driven me away and made me walk
in darkness rather than light;
3
indeed, he has turned his hand against me
again and again, all day long.
4
He has made my skin and my flesh grow old
and has broken my bones.
5
He has besieged me and surrounded me
with bitterness and hardship.
6
He has made me dwell in darkness
like those long dead.
7
He has walled me in so I cannot escape;
he has weighed me down with chains.
8
Even when I call out or cry for help,
he shuts out my prayer.
9
He has barred my way with blocks of stone;
he has made my paths crooked.
10
Like a bear lying in wait,
like a lion in hiding,
11
he dragged me from the path and mangled me
and left me without help.
12
He drew his bow
and made me the target for his arrows.
13
He pierced my heart
with arrows from his quiver.
14
I became the laughingstock of all my people;
they mock me in song all day long.
15
He has filled me with bitter herbs
and given me gall to drink.
16
He has broken my teeth with gravel;
he has trampled me in the dust.
17
I have been deprived of peace;
I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18
So I say, “My splendor is gone
and all that I had hoped from the Lord.”
19
I remember my affliction and my wandering,
the bitterness and the gall.
20
I well remember them,
and my soul is downcast within me.
21
Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:
22
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23
They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24
I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”
25
The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26
it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the Lord.
27
It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.
28
Let him sit alone in silence,
for the Lord has laid it on him.
29
Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30
Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31
For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33
For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.
34
To crush underfoot
all prisoners in the land,
35
to deny people their rights
before the Most High,
36
to deprive them of justice—
would not the Lord see such things?
37
Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
39
Why should the living complain
when punished for their sins?
40
Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the Lord.
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lydia, I agree.
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God is a gate-keeper of evil. God opens the door & allows evil because God will force it to turn out good later on (some say for God’s glory).
These assertions prompt honest questions if we are using our God-given brains: Is that love? Is each one responsible to make their own choices? Isn’t rape, murder, abuse infringing upon someone else’s choice? If so, the definition of evil is taking away someone else’s choice. Then evil falls into the control category, IMO. Do we want God to control us? Or do we covet our freedom? Founding fathers said it is God-given freedom & many have given their lives for liberty & justice for all. Is a God who doesn’t control us but gives us choice… good or evil? What’s the difference between good & evil – if it all is made good in the end? These are questions that come up with God in control belief.
I have yet to hear a rational explanation for determinism/ fate/ controlling God/ reformed belief.
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I don’t really know what determinism is, or whether it’s a reformed belief, but the Lamentations passage seems to help with explaining how God handles good and evil without creating a contradiction.
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This is a great subject and the reason it gets so intense is, I think, because it strikes so close to who God is and how can we make any sense of the evil of life? If God is who He says He is, all-knowing, which includes past, present, and future, and if He’s all-powerful, and if He’s all-wise, we have a God who knows everything, can do anything, and everything that He does is the wisest.
Then there is evil. If God causes evil, He is not holy. But if He can’t moderate it or control it, he’s not all-powerful.
I asked my dad this question when I was about 8 – “when satan sinned for the first time, why didn’t God zap him?” No satan, no sin, no evil, no problems. And “zapping” satan out of existence would be no challenge to an infinite God.
So here we are, asking the same question – why didn’t God do something He clearly could have done to alleviate pain and suffering of those He loves? I see these possibilities:
He is so committed to absolute human freedom he won’t interrupt even a molestation in respect for the molester.
He allows evil even though he hates it with every fiber of his being, because it will serve some purpose.
Neither of these are easy, and leave me, like Job, with unanswered questions. But for me, I’d rather have a God who allows things for reasons I can’t understand than a God who is incapable or incompetent. Because I think at the end of the day, the problem of evil really does come down to Gods relationship to it – why does he leave it, why does he sometimes act, sometimes not?
Two texts strike me particularly, one is already quoted from John 11 where Jesus delays coming to visit Lazarus for two days, because He loved him. So… the reason Jesus waits for Lazarus to die is because He loves him and his sisters? That’s what it says.
The second one is the man born blind in John 9. Why? So God can be glorified. Is Gods glory worth a lifetime of blindness? Jesus says it is. Jesus who is the most loving person who ever lived.
I still don’t have all the answers, but that at least helps me understand in some small way.
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Daisy,
I understand and share your concerns about the way that many Calvinists express their views, especially those who teach (or imply by their teachings) that God causes specific evil events or actions to occur.
My point was just that saying God allows or permits bad things to happen is not a specifically Calvinistic teaching.
I think it’s good and healthy that people express their concerns about or dislike for Calvinism. I just think that people may go too far in their desire to distance themselves from that doctrine and end up denying things taught in the Bible — like the fact that we simply can’t fully explain or understand how an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God exists, and evil also exists. If He cares about us, knows that evil hurts us, and is powerful enough to do anything he chooses to do, why doesn’t he choose to do something to prevent or stop all evil? That may not be the best question to ask, but people ask it because they are in pain.
For one who knows and trusts God, the best answer may be “I don’t know, but I know that my Redeemer lives.” But I don’t think that it makes sense, from the standpoint of biblical teaching, to try to deny the obvious conclusion that in some way, and for whatever reason, God permits our suffering.
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Karen, I also love Lamentations 3 and find great comfort there. It appears that the author viewed his calamity (having witnessed unspeakable evils that most of us can’t even imagine) as arising from God’s specific intent. I would caution folks not to carry that too far and conclude from it that all suffering for all people everywhere is specifically brought on them by the direct hand of God, or that we should tell someone who is hurting due to another person’s actions that they ought to view God as responsible. But, for me personally, I find some sense of comfort in knowing that, at least at times, God may have a specific purpose in my suffering that I am unable to see. And, even if not, whatever the reason for my pain, I can always trust that my loving Father desires, can, and will work all things together for good. Others may find no comfort in such thoughts, and I see no reason to expect them to just because sometimes I do.
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Joe Reed, good thoughts, well stated. We each have to figure out what makes sense to us based on our understanding of the nature of God as revealed in scripture, while still trusting that Hos Word is true and His character is good.
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The comments are so good here…..I learn from others (Oasis, Brenda, A Mom, Lydia, Daisy- thank you) and think it is healthy to have these discussions without condemnation, allowing the other to speak freely. I think God can handle it, don’t you (without maligning His character)? Freedom is a precious gift from God and personally I have come to the point that ANYTHING that tries to force and pressure a man or woman to confine themselves to a one sided view point of God’s character do not truly understand God. He is multifaceted and all good. He IS every personality that is born in this earth – and all personalities are good until one listens to the lies of Satan and leaves the safety and relationship of God. A choleric personality is good until he or she leaves Gods design and starts to control. A melancholy is good until he or she leaves and becomes depressed (Not that these examples fit to a tee of what these personalities end up with, but just an example). God knows and has created all sorts of ways to do things and be His servants. He is such a wonderful and creative God!
One of the saddest epiphany’s I have had of late in my own life and looking at others as well is, how evil it is to stop or hinder someone from fulfilling his or her own talents and gifts. I was raised with the idea that some talents and gifts were not worthy to pursue because they were deemed “wrong or not godly”. Now at 46, I have had to look back and mourn my own time/talents stripped away (by my own listening to others and parents thinking they knew what was best for me) because of the opinions and beliefs of other mere men, who thought they were God’s oracle to the sheep. Who gave them the right?
They were always trying to get people to go on the mission field – “leave it all and serve Gawwd”!! Always getting one to feel guilty and “serve in every aspect of the church (specifically in what they felt was deeemed service”). I was tired of feeling guilty. I wanted to serve God in the way I felt He wanted me to serve. This epiphany makes me cry inside for myself and others – what time wasted 😦
This cannot be good and there is no purpose by God for it. Time cannot be redeemed. Of course we can learn from it, but if we would have known sooner how much more would we have been able to do. I saw last night a documentary on kids that left FLDS and had to make it on their own. This was evil! They had NO clue who our presidents were; they did not even know about World War I or II, or any history for that matter. They did not know how to drive or use a credit card. There was and is no purpose to this. Time wasted. They are without their families, sisters and brothers- so sad and so evil.
When someone said above not to throw out all “Calvinism” because there is some truth to it- well of course, all denominations/religions have some truth to it. Even the Muslim religion has some truth. The problem is that man uses that little truth and mixes it with lies. The “some” truth acts as a bait on a hook and lures those in seeking it. Once someone has bought it then the institution starts to mix its own version of “truth” and demands those to conform to it. Any institution or man who demands, coerces, manipulates, or forces another to forfeit his or her relationship to God is evil; and this has been happening from the time Adam and Eve took that apple. Satan gave some truth but manipulated it to seem better then what God designed. In closing, Gods ways may seem simplistic and we want more; I am more content by obeying and realizing that His way is so much more fulfilling and exciting. His Spirit shows me how to live and be His child to the fullest. I am “down” with that! I don’t need a man to show me how to live my life for God; the Spirit is so much more then that!
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trust4himonly
Yes… APRIL 17, 2015 @ 5:50 AM…
“His Spirit shows me how to live and be His child to the fullest.”
“I don’t need a man to show me how to live my life
for God; the Spirit is so much more then that!”
————
Maybe WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, should considered the ANT?
The ANT is small and insignificant – Or is it?
Proverbs 6:6-8 KJV
6 – Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 – **Which having 1 – no guide, 2 – no overseer, or 3 – no ruler,**
8 – Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
1 – Guide – 07101 qatsiyn
KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1; 12
Thayers – chief, ruler, commander, dictator, ruler (of one in authority)
2 – Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1; 25
Thayers – official, officer./
3 – Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4, 81
Thayers – to rule, have dominion, reign, cause to rule, exercise dominion.
————-
Yeah, WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, should consider the ANT…
And “Ignore” ALL these self-proclaimed Mere Fallible Human leaders…
Guides, Overseers, and Rulers…
Today’s so-called “christian leaders,” “church leaders,” “spiritual leaders,”
Ain’t been doin so good… 😉
Yeah, WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, should consider
Going directly to Jesus – NO middle man…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Lydia
Yes… APRIL 16, 2015 @ 9:47 AM…
“The pastor/leader is NOT our guide, the Holy Spirit is.”
———
Yes, I vote for The Holy Spirit to lead us.
NOT Mere Fallible Humans… 😉
Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
John 3:8
The *wind (*pneuma – Spirit) blows where it wishes
and you *hear (*akouo – hearken, comprehend, understand)
the sound of it,
but do not know where it comes from
and where it is going;
so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
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@AnotherTom
I agree. I wouldn’t expect everyone in every kind of pain to be necessarily comforted by Lamentations 3. I merely thought it might be a useful tool to some of the commenters above who were having trouble with the idea of God bringing both pain and goodness into our lives. This passage seems to suggest He does exactly that.
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Karen, God does not bring pain into our lives. Sin, evil, etc brings pain. Lamentations is man lamenting to God in poetry about the destruction of Jerusalem. Things that did not need to happen except they constantly ignored God’s wisdom and guidance yet He was always trying to offer “rescue”. That is where we should start in our understanding.
We do people a diservice when we ignore the genre of ancient communication and how that worked in different books of the OT.
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@Lydia00
Absolutely. Context is vitally important. Jerusalem is the backdrop for the writing of Lamentations 3. But the poem goes on to reveal two vitally important realities about God’s character which don’t appear to be case specific:
“Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.”
“Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?”
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Karen, You have missed my point. God does NOT bring pain even if the lamenter in lamentations says so. It is like the pastors who teach that King David was actually quoting God. Do they really want to go there when David was also advocating dashing his enemies babies heads against rocks? You know, there are people out there who believe that he was quoting God!
We tend to read the OT through Western post enlightenment eyes. You do not put ancient Hebrew poetry into a computer program and get a literal meaning out.
I would give my right arm to get people to understand that God does not “bring” evil, pain or wrong doing to anyone. To get us all to point our fingers at ourselves instead of God would be a huge step in the right direction. It is just another form of blaming God for what humans do.
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Lydia, the poetic elements of Lamentations and other parts of the Bible do not negate the truths they teach. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the author (Jeremiah?) explicitly attributes the destruction of Jerusalem and the atrocities people committed at that time to be the work of God. In many other places we have prophecies inspired by God declaring that God Himself is the cause of these things. In our zeal to point out that evil men are responsible for their own evil acts, and that God never is, let’s not discard a consistent theme of scripture. We go beyond scripture to declare that God directly causes all calamity, but we also go beyond scripture to declare he never does.
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“But for me, I’d rather have a God who allows things for reasons I can’t understand than a God who is incapable or incompetent.” Joe Reed
I don’t think the opposite of control is incapable/ incompetent. Does anyone really think that? Well, maybe dictators. Is anyone voting for a dictator next year? The discussion is whether God controls or gives us personal freedom/ responsibility. We do not have free choice or responsibility if God controls.
Control is not ideal. If it was, we would attempt to control our adult children instead of raising children to make their own choices to be free & separate from us. Many deterministic religions (google determinism) think freedom is not ideal.
This is what I see as a homeschool mom in much of the reformed homeschool movement. There are now adults who were “kept safe” into their 20s; dare I say 30s? There are blogs online created by adults speaking out about the control of their Christian parents because it is “God’s way”. I hear parents say the same thing said about God – Parents decide for their adult kids “for reasons their kids can’t understand”, Parents “know better than their kids”, “Parents are keeping their kids “safe”, etc.
If one believes in a God who is in control & think that is best-practice love & relationship, then it is logical to parent that way thinking it’s loving. Personally speaking, none of this (controlling God, controlling pastors, controlling spouses, controlling parents, controlling govt, etc.) makes sense to me. It seems to me we are loosing the value & appreciation of God-given freedom. God is wiser than we think, much less incapable or incompetent.
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I have a different view of the OT than you do. It is too intense to get into here but I tend to look at a larger view: Gods constant theme of rescue. Only a sociopath would create calamity so he could be the hero of rescue. That is the focus of power not love. Our focus should be on the stubborn Israelites.
I do not think people have delved into ancient forms of comminication. I have asked skads of seminary grads if they have ever read other ancient pagan creation narratives. The answer is always no. That says a lot to me.
Why am I adament? It is about trusting a good and Holy God.
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@trust4himonly:
Question: How does this sound any different from every One True Church of One, new split-off denominational founder, cult founder, or “One True Church of One” a la A.W.Pink? Each of those examples would claim “His Spirit showed them how to live” without need for Man’s institutions (except the one the example founded) and that they were restoring the Original New Testament Church with the Holy Spirit as the only guide.
For example, the Mormons’ origin story begins with a private revelation to one Joseph Smith to “Join None of these (existing) Churches, for all are Apostate”. And after Brigham Young’s reorganization, this Restored Original True Church is one of the biggest religious institutions in the Intermountain West.
Another example is the Ultimate Theoretical End State of Protestantism approached by A.W.Pink: Millions of One True Churches, each with only one member. And its watered-down version, the Lone Ranger Christian — “just God, the Bible, and me”.
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trust4himonly and A. Amos Love, May God bless you both.
trust4himonly,
Your testimony brought me to tears, to read of the brokenness of a life, and yet, has given me such hope, for your time here on this earth is not wasted. It may surprise us one day as we stand before our Risen LORD, just how much of an impact an individual has made for His Kingdom, for we only see what we can see in the flesh. And our Father, who art in Heaven sees and already knows the bigger picture. The spiritual realm of our LORD is but a mystery to us in the natural, and yet, you may be blessed far more than you will ever know in the presence of Jesus.
A. Amos Love,
Love, love, love the light of the Scriptures that you brought forth. God’s Word is always alive and active. Ants, seemingly insignificant, are a living powerhouse here on our farm. As for people, it is more often than not, that those considered lowly and insignificant in this world, by this world; are a greater witness, bearing the marks of Christ far more than those who inwardly and outwardly consider themselves more important. For us to decrease so that Jesus may increase is not looked upon favorably by the American church system where health, wealth, and prosperity are taught overtly and covertly.
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I too was wondering, having attended churches of various denominations, how each one (denomination) claims that it is the one true church, worshiping the one true god? And if for some reason, I was abandoned and stranded on an uninhabited island with only the clothes on my back and my Bible in tow, would I be condemned to hell because there are not others worshiping Jesus with me on that island? Would my prayers and the cries of my heart be heard by our LORD?
What I find so incredible is that I can speak of Jesus publicly, and pray with the Body of Christ in a store, on the telephone, or via the internet, with love and purity of the heart, far more that I can within a church full to overflowing with self righteous, condescending scribes and Pharisees. Alleluia!
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“Question: How does this sound any different from every One True Church of One, new split-off denominational founder, cult founder, or “One True Church of One” a la A.W.Pink? Each of those examples would claim “His Spirit showed them how to live” without need for Man’s institutions (except the one the example founded) and that they were restoring the Original New Testament Church with the Holy Spirit as the only guide.”
That is a good question! When trusthimonly starts a church and influences and/or insists others believe his/her way or they are heretics then we should be concerned. We could use a bit more individualism in Christendom that we bring to the corporate group when we fellowship/worship. Right now, it seems all we do is look to pastors for what to think or believe.
If his/her beliefs are not about harming others or controlling others then why should it matter that much?
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‘For us to decrease so that Jesus may increase is not looked upon favorably by the American church system where health, wealth, and prosperity are taught overtly and covertly.”
I honestly believe that for Jesus to increase we must reflect Him to others. How else is He really “increased”? There are as many scripture interpretations as there are IHOPS. But what really evangelizes? Being like Jesus Christ?
Have you guys ever read the letter to Diognetus? It is fascinating:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html
Here is a bit of background concerning the letter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Diognetus
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@Lydia00
I understand what you mean about King David perhaps taking a form of poetic license in a time of distress, and I think you’re right. In fact, I’ve never met anyone who believed David was quoting God in that Psalm. But then I read things like the graphic commands in Deuteronomy 7 and Joshua 23 and the punishments in Ezra 10, and I wonder if sometimes we ask the wrong questions because we can’t fathom the answers to the right ones.
I too believe there are differences in the themes of the OT and the NT. And a prominent theme of the OT is certainly Israel’s stubbornness and the need for rescue. Another one is the revelation of God’s character, and the circumstances revealing it show us why the ultimate rescue had to be in the form of the only perfect sacrifice. Himself.
All of this was determined before the foundation of the world, which creates a bit of a conundrum for us. But when we’re talking about God, who transcends time and space, it’s not really surprising that some of His actions would defy human logic. In fact, He assures us they will.
At any rate, what we do know is that He came to earth (that he created) to pay the price (that he set) for sin. If he hadn’t been willing to do this, I suppose you’d be right to call him a sociopath. But he was willing, and he did it. This is what’s so amazing about Christianity to me. I can think of no other religion where the object of worship condescends to its worshipers the way our God did. “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Interestingly, even after the price was paid, the imagery of pain continues into the NT and is frequently used to describe the process God uses to make us more like him (pottery, pruning, etc.) and this is why I believe the language in places like Lamentations 3 is not merely poetic. I think the writer was actually consoling himself with the reminder of God’s ultimate (albeit sometimes unfathomable) plan.
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“All of this was determined before the foundation of the world, which creates a bit of a conundrum for us”
It does not create a conumdrum for me at all. I am not a determinist. I think God knows what humans are fully capable of because He created them with free will. A love relationship is not determined. I do not think He planned their behavior.
“If he hadn’t been willing to do this, I suppose you’d be right to call him a sociopath. But he was willing, and he did it. ”
As to my reference to sociopathic behavior: what would you think of a parent that determined heinious things for their unborn child to happen to them as they grow up so they can show their power over the child? Wouldn’t you find that evil?
Now a good parent would step back and allow their children to make mistakes, fall, etc, so they can learn from it and mature. That is a whole other topic and it is a form of discipline.
I cannot understand why so many see God as good when they claim this sort of bring pain determinisn but the same behavior from a human would be called evil. It continues to boggle my mind. But people really do find solace in believing God brings them pain instead of pointing the finger to the appropriate offender. That is their right to believe that. But when they tell victims of such evil that, expect me to argue. I am simply done with the damage I have seen determinism do to people.
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One of the most fascinating texts that explains something of the tension in understanding that God could stop evil (and often does, for which we seldom give Him enough credit in discussions like this, I think) but doesn’t always, is from the lips of Job followed by a comment from the narrator, both inspired by the Holy Spirit – and said: “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.” In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. (Job 1:21-22 NIV)
So saying “the Lord has taken away,” by which he was referring to the loss of his kids due to an apparent natural disaster, loss of his wealth to marauding bandits, and loss of his health – all which was orchestrated by Satan. But wasn’t it God who allowed it? Yes. So in that sense “the Lord has taken away.”
BUT, it wasn’t God who murdered those kids or servants or inflicted Job with disease. Satan did that. God lifted the protective hedge, but that’s not the same as causing the evil. Hence Job could say “the Lord has taken away” without “charging God with wrongdoing.”
That’s the closest I can come to making sense of the problem of evil. It leaves questions, yes, but it makes it clear that God never does wrong, while recognizing that evil doesn’t take place without Gods being aware of it or able to limit it as he chooses. The “why” question remains, especially in regards to heinous acts of evil against the innocent, but God can neither be blamed for it nor considered incapable of halting it.
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God allows or gives us freedom and therefore each one is responsible for their actions. Each decides to do right, wrong, or evil. When people commit rape, murder, abuse they are choosing to infringe upon the freedoms of another. And they are completely, 100% responsible. And they need to be brought to justice.
Keep in mind that if we want God to control others then we are saying we wish we were robots/ puppets/ bobbleheads ourselves. Same for our kids/ friends/ etc.
If God is the gate-keeper and selects the evil actions to be allowed thru the gate on a case-by-case basis (only the situations of rape/murder/abuse that will bring Him glory & us good in the end is chosen, of course) then God is ultimately responsible for all evil that He allows through the gate. How is this not logical? Or must we give up our God-given minds to understand this nonsense? No wonder Christians are becoming atheists when they think through this nonsense. I speak up to say no, this is not my beloved God. The alternative is not an incapable/ incompetent God. That is blasphemous, IMO.
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“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Declaration of Independence
It is obvious to me that this is what we are discussing. It is obvious some believe this to be true & some think it is not self-evident, God has not endowed, a transfer of unalienable rights & freedoms has never occurred.
What I am hearing is: tension (as in contradiction makes sense), can’t be understood, can’t be known, can’t be self-evident, God is gate-keeper, there is no endowment of choice or decision making given to us, and on & on, fill in the blank.
How can one say they love this incredible truth, the truth this country was founded upon & stands upon, yet hold to determinism at the same time? Can we see the huge, gaping contradictions? Let’s think & mull & ponder long over this. We owe it to ourselves.
It’s okay to admit wrong & change course on this one. I did.
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Posse peccare, posse non peccare
Non posse non peccare
Posse non peccare
Non posse peccare
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I’m sure this is not the appropriate place, but I need your prayers for my daughter and her unborn child. Joy is in the hospital after her water broke. She is about 23 weeks. The docs are doing all they can to prevent labor from starting. He is much too small to survive in the world yet. Your prayers are sincerely appreciated. I would gladly give my life in exchange for this little one.
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Oh, Brenda, lifting your grandbaby, daughter and family in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us posted on how she’s doing.
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Thank you, Julie Anne. I’m almost afraid for the phone to ring.
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I can’t imagine what you all are going through- and the unknowns.
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“Posse peccare, posse non peccare
Non posse non peccare
Posse non peccare
Non posse peccare”
I am not a fan of Augustine and believe he did a lot of harm to Christianity. I disagree with his declaration because I believe humans can refrain from sinning against one another and that should be evident as an ongoing fruit of salvation. Growing in Holiness. It is a choice and a daily hard one, for sure!~ But we also have to define it because a lot of Christians have a distorted view of what perfection means. We all need to study the life of Jesus. The non syllabus Jesus. The middle part.
The problem is that Christians define sin differently. (And that is a huge topic) For example, Augustine defined our very existence as sin. His concept of original sin (Imputed guilt) made us all guilty the minute we leave the womb. (And I am not talking about being born with bodies that die and a corrupted earth)
Augustine knew no Greek and made a quite a hash of much scripture. It is just that with his position and influence, his writings in Latin spread West and his views became what many call “orthodoxy” (I hate that word!). He was tenacious including his insistence the Donatists be wiped out because they were refusing to take communion from corrupt priests. Augustine said they are the chosen priests and you have no choice!~ (They were being rebellious so they needed to be wiped out)
He brought in a lot of his Pagan Mani thinking and merged it with horrible interpretations as in “material world bad/ spiritual world good” into his writings. Greek Pagan religion is immersed in determinism. Too much of Western Christianity is modeled on his thinking. And it is so ingrained! The irony is if we believe Augustine was right then we cannot agree that humans can govern themselves. Augustine brought in the Greek pagan thinking of the Philosopher king into Christianity as in we need priests to lead the masses in order to teach us what to think and do.
I do not mean to say everything he wrote was wrong but the big stuff he got wrong made a horrible impact and caused quite a bit of evil and suffering done in the name of God.
Sorry! Augustine is one of my pet peeves because I see the damage his interpretations have caused.
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“I’m sure this is not the appropriate place, but I need your prayers for my daughter and her unborn child. Joy is in the hospital after her water broke. She is about 23 weeks. The docs are doing all they can to prevent labor from starting. He is much too small to survive in the world yet. Your prayers are sincerely appreciated. I would gladly give my life in exchange for this little one.”
It is always appropriate to ask believers for prayer!~ What stress this must be causing for your family. I am honored to pray for your family.
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“Here is some of what Augustine himself had to say about this.
Man’s original capacities included both the power not to sin and the power to sin ( posse non peccare et posse peccare ). In Adam’s original sin, man lost the posse non peccare (the power not to sin) and retained the posse peccare (the power to sin)–which he continues to exercise. In the fulfillment of grace, man will have the posse peccare taken away and receive the highest of all, the power not to be able to sin, non posse peccare . Cf. On Correction and Grace XXXIII. ”
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/four-fold.html
NOTE: This hero of the reformed religion, Saint Augustine, says all humans who ever lived (except Adam & Eve) have zero power to do good and only have the power to sin. He says the only power humans have is to sin.
Is this what we should teach three & four year olds? They are corrupt little sinners & have done no good since conception? They only have the power to sin? If their action is good, they don’t deserve a, “Good job!”? Ugh! If they are raped, the perp never was expected to do better? To top it off, this is a loving God’s plan? Yikes. Not many can muster up the sheer coldness to apply this man-made theology to their lives. Unless you’re a John Piper can you even attempt to live it out. At least he’s consistent with his religion.
This teaching condones, excuses, & emboldens evil. Don’t Christ-followers speak up against ANY religion that teaches, condones, excuses & emboldens evil?
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Brenda R, It is the right place. Thank you for sharing. This is gut-wrenching. I will be praying for your grandbaby, Joy, and your family.
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“BUT, it wasn’t God who murdered those kids or servants or inflicted Job with disease. Satan did that. God lifted the protective hedge, but that’s not the same as causing the evil. Hence Job could say “the Lord has taken away” without “charging God with wrongdoing.”
Joe, quite a few Ancient Hebrew Scholars have shown where the Job “poem” (That book is the most ancient written even before Genesis) actually communicates the opposite of how it is usually taught by most pastors. Job’s friends insist the calamities Job faced were punishments for his sin. They spend a lot of time arguing this. Of course that is wrong. The ancient genre is hard for us to grasp with our post enlightenment literal thinking. We would view the hyperbole used in Ancient communication as actual lying or at the least ridiculous exaggeration.
We see a lot of this hyperbole in the OT concerning war. If you read other ancient writings you see a pattern of this.
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Even Pastor Wade says love must trump theology. I agree. I just wish he believed this 24/7. 🙂
Because I care, I hope & pray he will ditch a theology that does not jive with love & a loving God. Based on this post, it seems he somewhat understands this theology is cold, heartless, unloving.
When one has to set aside religion/ faith/ beliefs in order to love in word & action, then something is terribly wrong about their religion.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/05/when-love-trumps-theology-moore-tornado.html
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Julie Anne,
I just talked to Joy. She is actually 22 weeks and 2 days. They are giving her antibiotics every 6 hours and the next 48 hours are crucial. If Tiny Mikey makes it 10 more days, they will start steroids to help his lungs develop. His lungs are not strong enough at this point to make him “viable” at this point. I don’t understand that word used about the baby we already love. Joy is in good spirits and is being well taken care of. She will not come out of her hospital room until the baby arrives.
Thank you for your prayers.
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Thank you, Lydia. You don’t know how much that means to me.
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A Mom,
I completely agree that the person who sins is 100% responsible for his evil. That’s logical, and infinitely more importantly, it’s biblical. Saying God makes people sin is blasphemous in the highest degree, and Augustine and Calvin and the rest of the so-called “determinists” would agree.
The question to me has always been “why doesn’t God stop evil when he knows it’s going to happen?” Either he doesn’t know (open theism) or he knows but doesn’t intervene like we might desire or expect (traditional Christian teaching, in no way limited to reformed people)
About Augustine and “goodness,” I’ll just set the direction but a comment couldn’t possibly flesh it all out. Here’s two “goods”:
Romans 3:10 – “there is none who does good” (think also of Jesus to rich young ruler “there is one who is good – God!)
And
Romans 13:3 Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same.
So I tell my kids “good job” and “good boy” because it is appropriate. But picking up dirty socks isn’t the same goodness as that required to gain entrance into heaven, necessarily. Hope that helps
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And Brenda, may God be gracious to your daughter and grandson and demonstrate His goodness and love and mercy in wonderful ways, for their good and His glory!
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Brenda,
Joining with everyone else to pray for your daughter & grandson.
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You guys are the best. Thank you for your support and most of all your prayers.
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“The question to me has always been “why doesn’t God stop evil when he knows it’s going to happen?” Either he doesn’t know (open theism) or he knows but doesn’t intervene like we might desire or expect (traditional Christian teaching, in no way limited to reformed people)”
I know this is going to sound simplistic but I had to stop asking that question when I realized God’s intention for His creation. God wants us to stop evil. How come we are so immature, ignorant, etc even 2000 years after the resurrection that we do not see the patterns of behavior that lead to evil doing? How much of it could have been stopped if decent people had stood up to the SMALL things they saw? But we are so accustomed to saying, sinners sin, we overlook much and put even have the nerve to call it “being human”. Or worse, some even call it “gossiping”. That is how ingrained this stuff is. Overlooking the small things only desensitizes us to the big things. History plays this out over and over.
Another thing we do is elevate people who end up lording it over. Or we so admire them because of title, position, etc as to overlook much. And we are not real picky who we “learn” from. We tend to view ourselves as ignorant in certain matters and there are “experts” who will tell me what to think or do. That might we wise in law, engineering or medicine but a disaster in spiritual matters. Or even in common sense matters of governing.
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God wants us to stop evil. How come we are so immature, ignorant, etc even 2000 years after the resurrection that we do not see the patterns of behavior that lead to evil doing? How much of it could have been stopped if decent people had stood up to the SMALL things they saw? But we are so accustomed to saying, sinners sin, we overlook much and put even have the nerve to call it “being human”.
I totally agree Lydia. I disagree with your understanding of Job, but this statement is spot on! God almost always uses natural “means” or “instruments” to stop evil. And he is, I believe, happy when people are engaged in stopping it. But still, He is God, and we thank him when good things happen, because we understand his hand is behind them. “Every good and perfect gift comes from above.” Like my parents – good people. I was loved well, and even looking back now, wouldn’t change a thing about how I was raised and I try to raise my kids the same way. I thank God for them. But if God gives good things to some, why do some have bad things? Is God only in the good and absent from the bad, or as I said earlier, so committed to human freedom he won’t trample on the freedom of the most evil to keep them from their evil? Because frankly, I wish he would more often! And certainly when people fight against evil as you suggest that happens. I’m happy to trample all over the free will of someone wanting to harm my kids or my wife and I make no apologies for that! And I’m glad ultimately good will triumph, but does that truth help the abused now? Or is something more immediate more helpful?
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Brenda,
Praying for your daughter and baby Mikey.
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Lydia, it wasn’t my intent to reference Augustine. I’m aware of the problems with some of his theology. Yeah, I think Augustine came ui with that formulation, I was just referencing the common formulation of the relation of human beings to sin.
Adam was created with the ability to sin or not to sin.
After his fall, humans who are not in relationship with God live in a state it which it is not possible for them to completely avoid sin. Everybody sins. The concept of “original sin” or “inherited sin nature” is not the point here — people have different beliefs on that. Rather the point is, regardless of why, the fact is that everyone chooses not to always do what God wants.
When a person becomes a believer in Christ, that person is now able not to sin. Aprt from Him and His Holy Spirit, we don’t have the ability to always and completely live perfectly and avoid sin. As believers, through we can still choose to sin, by God’s power and grace we can also choose not to sin.
When the Lord returns, and we are all in our resurrected and glorified form, we will be transformed so completely in holiness and Christlikeness, we will not even have the capacity to sin. We will be “not able to sin.” I can see where some may take issue with this particular point, and say that we could theoretically sin if we wanted to but we will be so completely transformed that we will never want to. But the end result is the same — we will live eternally sinlessly.
I didn’t bring this up to argue for an Augustinian or Calvinistic position. That can be an important discussion, especially to ensure that unbiblical and deterministic teachings are denied, to me, But the discussion of whether or not God permits evil is not confined to that theological perspective.
I brought it up to point out that sin is evil, and that evil is sin, and the relationship of humans to sin and evil is connected to the state of our relationship to God, and Gos’ relationship to us. While it is true that we should focus on our own responsibility as individuals and the overall responsibility each person has for their own actions and not blame God for people’s sinful choices, it is also true that we live in a world impacted by the choices people make in regard to God’s will. Go sees every sin and ever form of evil that we chose to do toward Him and toward others, and, for whatever theological reasons we want to give, He chose to allow the first sin, and He has chosen to allow the sins and evils done since to continue. We can’t blame Him in any way for any evil anyone does, but we cannot deny He allows evil to exist in general, and He allows each individual to do the evil that person does.
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Lydia, it wasn’t my intent to reference Augustine. I’m aware of the problems with some of his theology. Yeah, I think Augustine came up with that formulation, but I was just using it as a way of describing the relation of human beings to sin.
Adam was created with the ability to sin or not to sin.
After his fall, humans who are not in relationship with God live in a state in which it is not possible for them to completely avoid sin. Everybody sins. The concept of “original sin” or “inherited sin nature” is not the point here — people have different beliefs on that. Rather the point is, regardless of why, the fact is that everyone chooses not to always do what God wants.
When a person becomes a believer in Christ, that person is now able not to sin. Apart from Him and His Holy Spirit, we don’t have the ability to always and completely live perfectly and avoid sin. As believers, though we can still choose to sin, by God’s power and grace we can also choose not to sin.
When the Lord returns, and we are all in our resurrected and glorified form, we will be transformed so completely in holiness and Christlikeness, we will not even have the capacity to sin. We will be “not able to sin.” I can see where some may take issue with this particular point, and say that we could theoretically sin if we wanted to but we will be so completely transformed that we will never want to. But the end result is the same — we will live sinlessly for eternity.
I didn’t bring this up to argue for an Augustinian or Calvinistic position. That can be an important discussion, especially to ensure that unbiblical and deterministic teachings are denied, but the discussion of whether or not God permits evil is not confined to that theological perspective.
I brought it up to point out that sin is evil, and that evil is sin, and the relationship of humans to sin and evil is connected to the state of our relationship to God, and God’s relationship to us. While it is true that we should focus on our own responsibility as individuals and the overall responsibility each person has for their own actions and not blame God for people’s sinful choices, it is also true that we live in a world impacted by the choices people make in regard to God’s will. God sees every sin and every form of evil that we chose to do toward Him and toward others, and, for whatever theological reasons we may give, He chose to allow the first sin, and He has chosen to allow the sins and evils done since to continue. We can’t blame Him in any way for any evil anyone does, but we cannot deny that He allows evil to exist in general, and that He allows each individual to do the evil that person does.
It seems that the concerns of some with saying that God permits bad people to do bad things to us is that they feel that saying that would make God in some way responsible for the evil that was done. I understand and share those concerns. We need to be very careful not to allow our theology to be used as an excuse for us or anyone else to blame God for anything evil. Nevertheless, we are left with the objections raised when we tell people that God is all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, and that He is in no way responsible for evil, and yet they observe every day that evil exists. We can tell people not to blame God, and we should, but their objections remain. For those of us who now God as our loving Father, we realize that in Him there is only goodness, kindness, and love, and that He has no desire for any harm to come to us. For those who don’t know Him, such trust is not so easy. It’s not always easy for those who know Him well.
You said that we have a different view of the Old Testament. Probably so, to some degree, as no two people see everything the same. But our general perspective may not be all that different. But this isn’t really a matter of how we interpret isolated Old Testament passages. Probably the most direct and specific indication that God can, at times, not only permit bad people to do bad things, but also even ordain it, is seen in the death of His Son Jesus on a cross for our sins. Through His death, burial, and resurrection, we are reconciled to God, by grace, through faith. The cup of Christ’s suffering at the hands of evil men was the will of God for our good.
We should not say to someone that the wrong that someone did to them was planned by God in order to accomplish some greater good in their live. Nor should we even say that it came about because God permitted it with some good in mind. Our focus instead should be on blaming the evildoer alone, and on doing what we ourselves can do to stop evil. But neither should we say that it is never, under any circumstances at all, true that God might have a good plan and purpose in mind in permitting someone to do wrong. Either one is presumptuous and goes beyond the teaching of scripture. His calling on us as His children is simply to trust Him, and to encourage others to do the same, no matter what comes our way.
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“I completely agree that the person who sins is 100% responsible for his evil. That’s logical, and infinitely more importantly, it’s biblical. Saying God makes people sin is blasphemous in the highest degree, and Augustine and Calvin and the rest of the so-called “determinists” would agree.” Joe Reed
As AnotherTom graciously pointed out, Augustine & all determinists say humans don’t have the power to do righteous actions. If that’s true, then how is it that the person who sins is 100% responsible for their evil actions since they can’t choose to do right? If a hostage’s finger is tied to a rifle trigger & the string is pulled to fire the rifle, and the bullet kills an innocent person, is the hostage 100% responsible?
I wholeheartedly disagree with deterministic religions (Reformed/Islam/etc.). I believe all humans were created with conscience/ the knowledge of good & evil/ etc. and they can choose to do right at any point in time.
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“So I tell my kids “good job” and “good boy” because it is appropriate. But picking up dirty socks isn’t the same goodness as that required to gain entrance into heaven, necessarily. Hope that helps” Joe Reed
So glad you tell your kids good job when they do righteous actions. I bet you did this when they were toddlers. 🙂 I think it’s 100% appropriate. No ifs, ands or buts. I’m curious as to why you think it’s appropriate? Isn’t that telling them a tall tale from your viewpoint? As AnotherTom pointed out, Augustine says kids do not have the power, human agency (choice), to do righteous actions. This is the held belief of the reformed faith.
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“…and, for whatever theological reasons we want to give, He chose to allow the first sin, and He has chosen to allow the sins and evils done since to continue. We can’t blame Him in any way for any evil anyone does, but we cannot deny He allows evil to exist in general, and He allows each individual to do the evil that person does.” AnotherTom
Why is there sin? It’s not a “whatever reason we want to give” – it absolutely matters why! It’s important to those who have been abused! Please put me on record for saying sin is possible because God gave us freedom…. the freedom to choose our own actions.
It’s impossible to be both free AND be controlled by God. Also, if God controls one then God controls everyone. BTW, I don’t think God wants to control us. Many places in the Bible God begs, pleads & yearns for us. Doesn’t sound like a controlling God to me.
Saying we want a controlling God is saying that we want someone to control us & make our choices for us for the rest of our lives. We are also rejecting freedom/ volition/ human agency/ choice/ love. Control is not ideal.
The upside to freedom is the possibility of someone choosing loving action. And the downside to freedom is the possibility someone will choose evil action. Take away freedom & you take away loving action, not just evil action. TAKE AWAY FREEDOM, THEN YOU TAKE AWAY THE POSSIBILITY OF LOVE, NOT JUST EVIL.
NOTE: If we have no free-will, then can we truly love? Love is not love unless both people choose. Can you force someone to love you? Would you want to force someone (a spouse perhaps) to love you? You want someone to choose to love you, right? So does God. God is glorified when we choose to love God & each other (according to Jesus).
No freedom, then no choice, then no evil, but then no love either. There would be no possibility to love without freedom to do so.
God is love, so God create a world where love is possible. From beginning to end, the Bible talks of God’s desire for relationship with people made in God’s own image. It’s the repeating theme. Relationship. Love with God. Love with each other. I think the Bible (taken in entirety, not proof-texted) explains quite well why there’s choice & therefore why evil may occur. God says, “Will you love me? Will you love each other?” God wants us to have an abundant life, but God gives us the choice. We are the “deciders”. We are 100% responsible for our own actions, which is why justice is 100% appropriate & why praise for good action is 100% appropriate. People are fully capable of doing right.
Why do people sin? It’s because people have mistakenly thought doing wrong was better for them than doing right. Doing wrong hurts/ severs loving relationship & doing good brings/ strengthens loving relationship. People will do right when they are fully convinced doing right is best for them. Understanding it that way, doing right isn’t so bad. 😉
Determinists don’t believe all have God-given freedom to do right. The irony of discussing whether God-given freedom for all is true or false with deterministic Americans (Isn’t that an oxymoron?) who choose each day hasn’t escaped me. 🙂
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A Mom, I’ve missed you and your thought-provoking comments. So good to see you. 😀
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Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28 NIV)
Can God be in control and people still have freedom? Peter seemed to think so and prayed like it.
And regarding doing “right,” of course not every deed done by every person is “evil” in the sense of harmful. But it absolutely is impossible for anyone to do anything out of love for God with all their mind soul heart strength, because without faith it is impossible to please God.
So that’s why there’s a distinction between the good of giving to charity and caring for other people and loving a spouse and the kind of good deeds that earn favor with God.
Jesus says in Matt 7 he’ll throw certain miracle workers out of heaven. But he also says in Matt 10 he’ll reward cups of water – given in his name.
So freedom to do the one kind of “good” is of course real, but its impossible to do the other kind if we’re not saved. Jesus didn’t die to make up for however many evil things we happened to mess up on, he died because absolutely nothing we do outside of Him earns any favor whatsoever, because there is “none who does good.”
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anothertom,
I hope you understand that I find discussions/disagreements like this edifying. Anything that makes us think about what we believe and why is a good thing IMO.
You wrote:
“Probably the most direct and specific indication that God can, at times, not only permit bad people to do bad things, but also even ordain it, is seen in the death of His Son Jesus on a cross for our sins. Through His death, burial, and resurrection, we are reconciled to God, by grace, through faith. The cup of Christ’s suffering at the hands of evil men was the will of God for our good”
I do not view it like this at all. In that scenerio God did not have to make anyone go along with crucifying Himself. I do go along with God knowing it was the perfect timing as far as what was going at the time concerning “Saviors of Israel”, Passover, Pentecost, etc. That would be like saying Jesus sacrificed Judas to get the job done. He did not have to do any such thing. He knows what we are thinking but he certainly does not ordain evil deeds. He even partook of the Passover with Judas knowing what He knew. On the other hand, guys like Nicodemous has serious issues with what was going on and secretly wanted to understand it. What is the difference in terms of what God permits, ordains? Human choice
I see Jesus as the God-Man. I see the cross resurrection as a sacrifice and then victory over death and new creation. It was a big message to the Jews. We tend to forget the Jewishness of Jesus and that stunts our understanding. We tend to see the Euro Jesus of the Reformers who was being punished by God for our sins because God is so angry He had to pour out his wrath on someone. So He sent his son to take the punishment meant for us. (Nevermind this SAvior of Israel is referred to as “everlasting Father” in Isaiah!)
For me, the whole Hebrew father/son metaphor is missed. The educated Jews understood it perfectly as we see in John 5 (I think that is right). They were miffed at this nobody “Messiah” (meaning Savior of Israel and there had been other posers) but boy, when He called God his Father, they wanted to kill him. Because in the Hebrew culture dealing with the son is equal to dealing with his father. The son is the father in all business/personal dealings. Jesus was claiming to be God!
The resurrectoin means NEW LIFE. It is akin to a metaphor about creation but a NEW Creation. We see references to that—new creation in Christ. Born Again. All of those are creation metaphors. It is like God shouting “you can be born again”! You can be different! See! I proved it! Let us get to the business of working toward redemption of this earth and people because as you will hear from John later, I will be joining the earth with heaven and it will be perfectly redeemed. But let’s start now.
We should have been well on our way to working toward redeeming His grand creation here and now as we can. (It won’t be perfect but so what?) But we are doing exactly what the Jews did. Historically, we have turned the meaning of the resurrection upside down. Historically Christians have simply turned the cross resurrection into an excuse for sin. Jesus took the punishment for us so it is no big deal. He is acting as our righteousness right now as we sin. (This is why I hate proof texting)
I see scripture as a billion piece puzzle. We tend to get caught up with the individual pieces discussing how they fit or tyring to force them to fit while we ignore the BIG picture on the front of the box. Not a perfect illustration but the best I can do off top of my head.
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“”So freedom to do the one kind of “good” is of course real, but its impossible to do the other kind if we’re not saved. Jesus didn’t die to make up for however many evil things we happened to mess up on, he died because absolutely nothing we do outside of Him earns any favor whatsoever, because there is “none who does good.””
Are you referencing Romans 3 here to make a point that no one can do good outside of believers? Only their “good” is favored by God? (What about believers who molest children and then preach the gospel? Is one thing good because they claim to be a believer but the other bad? Just a thought in how this thinking can become a problem and we see this thinking played out all the time. I heard it about Driscoll every day on blogs: Yeah, nevermind that other stuff…but he preaches the Gospel! He is a believer and does good and bad)
In Romans 3, Paul is referencing Psalms 53 and 14. (And remember, Psalms is man talking to God in poetry) He is using it for the case he is making in Romans about “corporate” election. This emcompasses the whole converted Jew/Gentile dichotomy that is a problem all through the NT.
It really helps to go read those Psalms in context and see how it fits the case Paul is trying to make in Romans which is why it is horrible to proof text Romans. What are those Pslams really saying?
There is a culminating arguement going on here and Paul is setting the groundwork for it in the part you quote. In other words, Romans is NOT about individual salvation. I am convinced there would be no Calvinism if Romans was not interpreted as being about individual salvation. But even Non Calvinists read it as individual election, too and it causes a lot of problems. Even the passage about the potter is totally misunderstood because people have not studied the whole potter/clay metaphor!.
There is an interesting cultural backdrop to Romans because it was written after the banished Jews were coming back to Rome. Even the proselytes. This would have caused some havoc in the small Roman church when the converted Jews returned. Paul is explaining the whole “corporate” election deal.
Interpreting it that way causes other problems in that Jesus even tells us to be perfect like our Heavenly FAther is perfect in Matthew 5. Was He lying to the Jews? PPlaying a bait and switch on them? Telling them they could strive for this when it was really impossible? I just don’t get it.
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“What about believers who molest children and then preach the gospel? Is one thing good because they claim to be a believer but the other bad? Just a thought in how this thinking can become a problem and we see this thinking played out all the time”
Believers who molest children and preach the gospel are a reproach to the gospel and ought to be given a cease and desist order. Period. Anytime the enemies of God are handed an opportunity to blaspheme by so-called men of God is a colossal tragedy.
I don’t want to get diverted, but I can be thankful that somehow, despite the wickedness of the messenger, Driscoll lead some to Christ. And I’m thankful he’s no longer in a pulpit making a mockery of the name of Christ and His church.
As to Romans 3, I am aware of the corporate understanding of that text and the way to dance around the idea of individual election. I’d just say go to Romans 9 and you’ll find sovereignty as individual as it can possibly get. Jesus first sermon in Luke 4 is too – and he about got shoved off a cliff for it, so I don’t mind a little pushback now and again either 🙂
Seriously though, to come back to the theme of the thread, in the problem of evil, Jesus’ death was indeed a great evil – condemning an innocent man to death is evil, we’d all agree. But God, while not doing the evil, did indeed plan for it to happen, in such precision that the method of Jesus’ execution was graphically predicted in Ps 22. How the free will of men lined up so perfectly with the plan of God from before the earth began is beyond me, but Herod, Pilate, Caiaphas and co. are 100% guilty and they did exactly what God already knew they would. To me, that’s the mystery, but it gives me hope – suffering is no surprise to God, but he will justly punish those who cause it because they are guilty, not him.
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I choose to worship a loving God who desires relationship with all. I don’t worship a determinist God who may have already damned you to hell before you were born for His “good” pleasure. Yikes! I see scripture much differently.
If Jesus (teacher of love, freedom & abundant life, all very threatening ideas to the government & religious leaders at at that time) was born in present-time N. Korea & my conclusion was dictator K J-u would conspire to kill him, would you think I have control of K J-u?
If I were to say, “Go to N Korea, tell K J-u he is not God & you will be murdered.” then do I have control of you? No. Do I have control over the situation? No. What I know is the atrocities of K J-u. I told you I know because I care.
Acts 4: Is it possible this is a continued expression of God’s undaunting love for everyone? It tells us God knew these were the daunting circumstances in which Jesus was born into.
Can it be possible for God to know without control? I think so. Does know = control? I don’t think so. My friends know I love onions – raw, sauteed, pickled, grilled, marinated, fried! Are my friends in control of me? Hmmm – No, but I think they know me. 🙂
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To everyone reading,
You ARE free to worship a loving God in this country, and terms such as love, good, evil, mean exactly what they mean & not the opposite. If I lived in Geneva during Calvin’s iron-fist freedom-less rule, then I might have been burned alive. Children were publicly whipped & beheaded under Calvin’s church-state rule. Calvin didn’t believe in freedom, he believed people were stupid & needed to be ruled by religious leaders.
John Adams, Ben Franklin, & Thomas Jefferson may have been burned alive for blasphemy if they lived in Geneva during Calvin’s time. They believed (as stated in the Declaration of Independence of the USA):
+ Certain truths to be self-evident – Calvin believed truth is not self-evident
+ The Creator endowed all persons with life, freedom & pursuit of happiness – Calvin believed people were created depraved, controlled by God, had no idea what happiness is
+ It is the purpose of the government to ensure these rights – Calvin believed the government’s purpose was to enforce his rule & religious beliefs on everyone
+ People have the right to overthrow oppressive governments – Calvin’s church-state was an absolute tyranny
Puritans had their own style of church-state Geneva, killing “witches”, Quakers and punishing anyone who didn’t believe in Calvinistic beliefs.
Our country was not founded on Puritan beliefs, as is being propagated by some reformed religious leaders.
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Btw, my friends know I love onions not because they have super-powers. They know because they are with me when I eat them & maybe they smell them on me (LOL). And they still hang out with me anyway!
God loves us. God is with us. God knows us. How else could God weep when we weep? God knows our joy & our sorrow. That is what I find comforting & amazing about our Creator. God knows us because God is with us, not because God controls us.
Do you think God knows us because God is with us always or God knows us because God controls us?
I can’t begin to express how much the answer we give to the abused and abusers matters..
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“I don’t want to get diverted, but I can be thankful that somehow, despite the wickedness of the messenger, Driscoll lead some to Christ. ”
Joe, that is Greek Pagan dualism and it is becoming a huge problem in Christendom….again as it was historically. We can thank Augustine for it and Calvin just systematized it. People try to tell me all the time to separate John Calvin’s behavior from his beliefs. HIs beliefs are right but his behavior wrong. If our “right” beliefs do not result in right behavior, then what is the point of it all? Evil Christians?
How do we seperate a long time professing Christian beliefs from their behavior? Especially when they have chosen to make a living with their beliefs?
Folks make the same arguement for Driscoll. AS if our beliefs do not drive our behavior. Oh his cage fighting Jesus beliefs did drive his behavior. That was the problem. How can that happen without dualistic thinking? It is pagan thinking. Separating mind from body or separating behavior from beliefs, separating physical world from spiritual– meaning there is no spiritual in the physical because the physical is all bad, etc.
Dangerous stuff that leads to all sorts of problems making Christians unsafe and trustworthy to be around. The question I might ask is what kind of Jesus was Driscoll selling that folks believed in? A cruel one.
Are messengers perfect? Of course not, but they are not evil using God for fame, profit or controlling others by which means they have to distort the truth in order to prop all that up. This is like saying evil is good.
Romans 9 is part of a larger arguement about corporate election. Romans 9 Paul is talking about God using Israel for His purposes which harkens back to Abraham and the plan to set things to rights after Adam’s big mess. God making a nation that would be the light of the world. (they were stubborn) Jacob/Esau denote nations not individuals. See back to Genesis from which he is quoting to make his argument that Jews are saved the same way Gentiles are. This is one the whole book has to be taken into consideration. I do think some people think God hated Esau before he was born, before he sold his birthright.
Look, I know people say they are not determinists but there is so much dualism and deterministic thinking in Western Christianity that is so ingrained that the Reformation’s foot prints are everywhere. Everything from Let go and let God to the kids in a seeker church telling me Jesus got them a pony to the women in Sunday School in a non Calvinist church talking about the new dress Jesus got them to the mega church pastor telling someone “God will protect you” while he has a bodyguard. (A lot of pastors teach determinism for others while they don’t practice it themselves.)
It is everywhere. God is responsible for everything—us nothing– except to say “I believe” or “Jesus saves” and that makes everything else ok. No. Jesus said we are to be new creations which includes behavior.
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Thanks to all who have welcomed me & my commenting “marathon”. LOL
I am encouraged by & cheer on all commenters who’s comments take a stand for freedom & love. That is caring for the abused.
This topic is so critical, IMO. Especially among abused but really it’s critical for everyone. And freedom to discuss in earnest has not really been encouraged on certain abuse blogs, IMO, & that pains me. I don’t think blind faith is good at all. Faith must be founded on solid, secure ground. We need to be able to explain our faith logically. If a religion is based on glaring contradictions that must be ignored, then that’s a warning sign. If a religion denies God-given freedom for all, then that’s a warning sign. If a religion seems control-based, that’s a warning sign.
SBTS grads move to my city in droves to fill the pulpits. Let’s be honest, people are asked to put aside common sense, told they are depraved, told there is no such thing as conscience, told they don’t have the ability to reason or think straight, told they don’t have freedom to choose, told women & children are less than men in so many words, told suffering is for their own good & God’s glory. And the result? Guards aren’t down, the guards have been eliminated completely & traded in for blind faith. I’ve seen it first-hand. It’s disastrous. The theology itself does damage.
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Joe Reed,
Indeed, it is all a great mystery. God knew everything that we would do. He is beyond out comprehension. His ways are not our ways. Hard to accept–very much so, but in the end I wouldn’t want Him any other way.
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Brenda, Another way to view it is that God revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. People traveled with him (even women!) ate with him and had discussions with him. He made Himself knowable. Why people won’t accept that Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh, I will never understand. And He wants His ways to be our ways.
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