SSB Gathering – April 12, 2015

Spiritual Sounding Board – This is your place to gather and share in an open format.

 by Kathi

 mirror lake

Psalm 46

God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam and the mountains quake with their surging.

There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy place where the Most High dwells. God is within her, she will not fall; God will help her at break of day.

Nations are in uproar, kingdoms fall; he lifts his voice, the earth melts. Come and see the works of the Lord, the desolations he has brought on the earth. He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth; he breaks the bow and shatters the spear, he burns the shields with fire.

“Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”

The Lord Almighty is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress.

***


***

May the peace of the Lord Christ go with you: wherever he may send you;

may he guide you through the wilderness: protect you from the storm;

may he bring you home rejoicing: at the wonders he has shown you;

may he bring you home rejoicing: once again into our doors.

***
Feel free to join the discussion.
You can share your church struggles and concerns.
Let’s also use it as a time to encourage one another spiritually.
What have you found spiritually encouraging lately?
Do you have any special Bible verses to share, any YouTube songs that you have found uplifting?

***

Photo credit: Brian Bonham

104 comments on “SSB Gathering – April 12, 2015

  1. Thanks, everyone, for not noticing that last week’s post was dated March instead of April. Or, at least for not mentioning! 😉 It would be me who messed up Easter’s date.

    Thanks, also for praying for my boss, Linda. She went through surgery well and is home now. She has a long healing process ahead of her, but her spirits are high.

    Liked by 4 people

  2. Hi Folks,

    1. Kathi: Thanks for today’s SSB Gathering, Easter’s, and helping out Julie Anne.
    I will pray for your boss Linda.

    2. Praise To Share: The single mother I met outside my building, who was smoking and crying a few weeks ago, about having to undergo major surgery for a serious, life-long medical problem that she’s had since childhood, received positive news from the surgeons: Things have cleared up in her body and they won’t need to do the major operation. I had been talking to the Lord night and day about her, her health, depression, fear, weariness, finances, having a young daughter she is raising, and Mom who lives with her and she supports. The single mom came to my office and reported to me that all of the doors in her life are flying open: provision for their little family, medical news, etc. I took her to the ladies room and we prayed and thanked the Lord for what He did! We both cried.

    2a. Her family was touched by the homemade (double recipe) pound cake that I made for them and baked in a Bundt pan. (I dyed parts of the batter with colors for Easter: purple, red, green, yellow…and wrote her family a note about the meaning of the colors. She said they read it on Easter Sunday and loved the colors of the inside of the cake.)

    2b. I have started to deliver a meal every Friday for this single Mom to take home for her, her Mom, and her daughter. I delivered a chicken dinner last Friday. Kosher hot dogs and buns, sides, etc planned for this Friday’s meal.

    Thanks, as always, to everybody here! Have a blessed day and a blessed week!

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Here’s a beautiful song “You Rescued Me” sung by Mershelia Williams and The Mississippi Mass Choir, my favorite choir!:

    Like

  4. Hi Folks,

    I was just checking in over at The Wartburg Watch’s E-Church (Electronic Church), Pastor Wade from the Baptist church in Enid, OK. He’s a friend of Dee and Deb’s at The Wartburg Watch, understands the people who have been harmed by churches, (I also read his book Hardball Religion which I bought used off amazon), and he’s got a really nice message today…just for The Wartburg Watch audience, here:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/11/echurchwartburg-4-12-15/#comments

    Like

  5. My “dad” signed the divorce papers! We’re just waiting for a day that a friend can go with Mom, and then she’ll sign, too. And since I’ll be 18 in less than a week, I never have to see him again. Thank heaven it’s almost over.

    But also, please pray for me. Due to chronic illness, my whole body hurts today, I’m exhausted, and my head is swimming. I also have endometriosis (is that how you spell it?), so I’m having horrendous cramps which require me to take Vicodin. I’m getting really tired of battling my body just to do tie my shoes, or boil some water, or brush my goats, or whatever.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. @A. Amos Love,
    Thank you, brother! I always appreciate and learn from your posts. Have a blessed day and a blessed week.

    < (sign of the fish)

    Like

  7. @Witch Hazel,

    First, happy soon-to-be 18th birthday this week!

    I am so sorry you are in pain and struggling with a health problem. I will be praying for you about that.

    Sorry about your family life too. I will be praying for all of you. Sad and bad things go on in families…that shouldn’t. Just remember, we don’t have to make the choices that they made.

    One of the things I like doing on my birthday (I don’t do it every year) is to make a collage. I buy a piece of poster board at the drug store, a glue stick, and cut out pictures and words from magazines, printouts from the internet, that I’d like in my life. I then hang the completed collage on my bedroom wall. I’ve even had potluck birthday parties where everybody brings magazines and makes a collage about their life. They’re all very different and very amazing! It’s a great way to end a 6-hour birthday party…to see everybody’s collage and have everyone go around the room and share. Super fun and super creative!

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Witch Hazel – Sending prayers your way for your health issues.

    And, Happy Birthday wishes too! I hope you are able to find joy in the year ahead.

    Like

  9. Kathi, I am so glad that your boss is doing well and pray she heals quickly.

    Michaela, So glad for the good news of this single mom. Isn’t taking meals to those who could really use it a tremendous blessing? They feel blessed receiving it, but I think I get as much from doing it as they do. Praise God.

    Witch Hazel, Happy almost 18th B-day. I will be having a B-day the following week. I couldn’t tell you what I did on my 18th. It was that long ago. I hope you enjoy the day and live each day to the fullest. Don’t settle for anything or anyone. I know the pain of Chronic illness and will be praying for you. You are much too young for this, but God has a plan for all of us. I am glad that you have options for relationship or not with your dad.

    It was determined that my daughter does have gestational diabetes and high risk for preeclampsia. She will be poking her fingers 4 times a day to keep the sugar in check and now will be keeping track of her blood pressure, which really is fairly normal right now. The good news is she is being monitored closely and baby Mikey is growing as he should and all of his vital organs are progressing nicely. She was told to stay away from stress. Hmmmmm…..I think most of what they told her was in itself stress. The Lord knows how many days we have.

    Amos, so good to see you here. I hope I didn’t miss anyone.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. @Brenda R.,

    Thanks for your sweet post. Yes, giving folks a meal is a blessing to me as a giver!

    I will be praying for your daughter, unborn grandchild, and your family. Have a blessed day and week, Brenda R.

    Like

  11. Witch Hazel,

    Thank you for checking in and letting us know about the divorce and health issues. Praying that you will find peace through the divorce and your health issues will quickly resolve.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. @Witch Hazel.

    Dear friend, my heart breaks that you have been hurt so by your father, and I know how painful that is. I pray that you are able to heal from the wounds he has inflicted and that God brings other godly men into your life (or has already).

    I also hope your birthday is particularly memorable and is the beginning of a hew and blessed year for you and pray that God gives you healing and peace.

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  13. Brenda, I am sorry about the problems your daughter is having with her pregnancy. I have type two diabetes and poking your finger for blood is a pain! (Especially when you make a mistake and have to redo it!) How far along is she? I have heard the here is nothing better than being a grandma. Congratulations!
    Kathi, Thank you for the beautiful picture and verse. The night sky shows me how limitless God is. I have had anxiety this week and will write down the beginning of your verse to remind myself to try not to be fearful. Thank you!

    Like

  14. Beware of “Pastor Wade.” This may be taboo to say here, but I care too much to be bothered and do not want any other vulnerable abuse victims to get severely hurt, like I was, by his cruel false teaching. It is my responsibility to warn people, whether anyone listens to me or not.

    That is all.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Ann,
    I think she is about 22 weeks now, We are praying that all is going to be ok. You are right though there is nothing like being a grandma. We were only given 9 months with the first one before the Lord took him home. I wish they lived closer. I won’t be able to see them as often as I would like. I get my sugar checked again this Friday. I thought I was going to avoid the family curse of Type 2, but maybe not. On the positive side, I got to be a lot older without it.

    Kathi,
    I ditto JA. I love the picture today with all of the stars in the sky. It won’t be long and the fireflies will be out at night in the courtyard. One of my favorite pass times is sitting on the patio and watching them light up.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Oasis,

    I recall Ps. Wade having inexplicably made allowances for whoever it was over at pulpit & pen who had been hounding some kid over the Internet before the kid committed suicide.

    I would be interested in knowing what teaching was so detrimental to you. If you don’t mind sharing, I’d also be interested in hearing how you came to recognize the error. I’m thinking you’ve already said something about all this, but I’m not remembering.

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  17. @Oasis,
    Thanks for your post. After my bad church experience (excommunication and shunning and seeing others get same before me), I will rely on the Word of God myself and the Holy Spirit and not men (or women).

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Oasis,

    Correct me if I am wrong. Wade believes or teaches that God orchestrates abuse, right? Would love to hear your thoughts!

    Brenda R- I have been praying for your daughter, I will continue.

    Ann, I have 2 granddaughters, I honestly feel I was born to be a Grandma. Such a sweet gift from above for this leg of the journey.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Witch Hazel and I spent a lovely day taking our goats for a walk at the local bike/walker nature trail. It’s amazing to both of us how much more connected we feel to God doing something like that than in a church building right now.

    Liked by 5 people

  20. “I would be interested in knowing what teaching was so detrimental to you. If you don’t mind sharing, I’d also be interested in hearing how you came to recognize the error.”

    I don’t want to speak for Oasis but I guess I feel a bit protective of her. A few years back there was an interaction on echurch with Wade about God orchestrating “everything” for good. Wade really tried to talk around this and explain it away but he really is a determinist so it became quite circular. It is the same old story that certain folks start with their definition of Sovereignty/God controlling everything. That always has disasterous results for those who have experienced horrible abuse. Not all abuse results in good being done, either. That was the nature of the conversation. Oasis might remember more details. I am certainly not going to spend time searching for the thread

    There were several people involved in the convo who disagreed with him. Mostly victims of heinous abuse. To tell a victim of such heinous abuse that God orchestrates everything for good….is well….what? to me it is more abuse. So his stance on dealing with abuse is confusing. I just don’t see how it works in the determinist mindset since God is orchestrating everything even within compatablism which is used to explain away the free will in doing evil to others.

    I was very disappointed in his cheap immediate grace for the P&P situation but not surprised. If more time had been allotted to see if it were real he nmight have seen that nothing really changed. It was a PR move for P&P, IMO.

    This is a touchy subject obviously. I won’t be popular.

    Liked by 3 people

  21. On a lighter note, someone sent me this today and asked if I knew anyone who might fit part of the descriptors contained in here. Funny thing as I thought, they were all in ministry!

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  22. Michaela, that is good to know!

    Gary, he specifically told me that God orchestrated and designed the sexual abuse that happened to me, down to the last detail. God designs sexual abuse. He said to many that whatever has happened to us was supposed to happen, and was of God. Sexual abuse is supposed to happen. Sexual abuse is of God. I told him that when he says those things to me, it feels like spiritual abuse, but he did not reply. Neither did he deny on two different blogs that his logic leads to the view that on some level, God wants children to be raped, and thinks it is better for children to be raped, that children need to be raped, that they are raped for their own good.

    In other words, he, like too many others, speak the language of abusers with their determinism, and promote an abusive relationship with God. Regardless of how many agree with his views, or how many fans he has, this kind of teaching is overwhelmingly painful and devastating to me and plenty of others, transforming our Jesus into the one who intentionally betrayed and hurt us the most. Wade and others like him personally intensified my own pain and threw me into total despair, nearly destroying my faith. Some have been driven to suicide because of this kind of poison. Because of all of these things, it is impossible for me to keep silent.

    My only intention is to warn others.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Lydia, I’ve noticed that abusive types are typically offered easy “grace,” while victims are usually just further victimized.

    I’ve been exceedingly lucky that our church (well, we haven’t been there for a couple of months) saw through my husband’s manipulations, crocodile tears, and false repentance over the last year. They chose to support my kids and me, which I’ve found shocking.

    Not so shocking, otoh, is the Christian friends who know our story and have decided that they need to be there for him. It makes me angry, but I really worry about the message those people are sending my kids about who God is, what the church is about, and hypocrisy.

    Liked by 2 people

  24. Lydia & Oasis,

    My Xpastor gave a sermon about giving God thanks for being abused. I was shocked because he ended his sermon by saying; “however, there are some of you who will refuse to give God thanks for being abused, and by refusing you might be resisting God’s healing”
    He then said this, “you will be spitting on the authority of the scriptures by your refusal.” Then he spit across the pulpit. I s*** you not.

    I made an appointment with him after that, I was so mystified & confused… I thought surely he cannot mean that I need to thank God for being physically, verbally & sexually abused as a child.

    In our meeting he explained how God brings good from evil referring to the story of Joseph, he quoted, in everything give thanks for this is the will of God. We went round & round. I had some spitfire in me, so I said to him, well okay then, when I am counseling, I will tell my counselee’s to give God thanks for having their abortion, or affair…

    I got the finger, the index finger in my face, was told that I needed to submit myself to the scriptures and those who had authority over me. I could go on & on, trying to keep this brief. Peace.

    Like

  25. Oh boy, Oasis, I am so sorry for what you’ve endured. I HATE determinism, and how those adherents prescribe traits to God that we used to shudder about when we read about the crazy, fickle Greek gods in school.

    Liked by 3 people

  26. “Lydia, I’ve noticed that abusive types are typically offered easy “grace,” while victims are usually just further victimized. ”

    Yes. It boggles the mind but there is an underlying belief there that perpetuates this and it is worth pursuing it to understand. (I am sick of dealing with the doctrines so not getting into that right now but basically there lacks an understanding of “Christ;’s righteousness” for those who say they are believers. It does not mean we can sin all we want because of it. Obedience to God is as important as whatever it is they define as “love” today)

    The victims are to forgive and get over it. The perps are seen as notches on the Christian belt–see how they are remorseful! How cruel not to forgive and aren’t I wonderful for brokering this sort of repentence? IOW, what was done to the victim happened so the perp could be saved (or repentent) !!! Isn’t God wonderful? (only to the perp!)

    Beware those types. They are not safe.

    Liked by 2 people

  27. “It makes me angry, but I really worry about the message those people are sending my kids about who God is, what the church is about, and hypocrisy. ”

    Do something about it now!!! It worried me sick, too. There is NO WAY I wanted my kids to think what they experienced had anything to do with the REAL Jesus. I decided the only way was to read through the Gospels (only) for a long time and point out what Jesus was really like. What did he say or not say? What did He do or not do? Who was He most angry with ( the religious leaders of his own tribe!!! Not the Romans!) and so on. Get a real picture of Who Jesus was while on earth. It is incredible how wrong we get Him because we have all been suckled on the syllabus Jesus…born, cross, resurrection. What about the middle part?. He was no namby pamby turn the other cheek on abusers within the faith. Oh no. He called them out.

    A great interpretive technique to use is this when reading:

    1. Who is speaking
    2. Who is the person speaking to (very important as in the adulterous woman is all about the Pharisees NOT the woman, etc.)
    3. What is the occasion?

    I really hope this helps. And I hope they are young enough for it to make a real difference. I just kept telling mine: What you saw is not from the real Jesus. So lets go learn about him.

    Liked by 3 people

  28. Thanks, Persephone. I hate it, too. I hate what it does to the character of God, and how it harms people. It led me down a dark rabbit hole into a religious Wonderland nightmare, that somehow I managed to wake up from. I try to celebrate the love and goodness, and holiness of God now, even though I still have very bad because of this stuff. It is everywhere.

    I forgot to answer Gary’s question about how I came to recognize the error. To be short, I chose life over death.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Gail, I believe God is offended when people thank him for sin and evil. He hates child sexual abuse, and every other kind of abuse, and it does not come from him, and it is never his idea or his choice for anyone. I do not know this pro-rape Jesus and I never will, because he does not exist.

    Liked by 3 people

  30. Lydia,

    I don’t know if you remember me, I use to post under Scared, then I changed to Gail aka scared. I signed up for word press so I could like comments and it changed from Gail to gm370. You have been instrumental in my awakening, along with many others here! I named my X pastor and you knew of him, Mr. Love & Respect aka Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. I AM NOT AFRAID ANYMORE! Yay.

    Liked by 5 people

  31. Gail, I did not know it was you!~ Praise God. Oh yes, I remember Mr. Love and Respect——making bank off his twist on Paul no less.

    As to what he told you, It is amazing how many pastors out there try to pass God off as Satan. It is chilling and creepy. It is a culture of death and they get to be powerful in that scenerio.

    Liked by 3 people

  32. “I got the finger, the index finger in my face, was told that I needed to submit myself to the scriptures and those who had authority over me. I could go on & on, trying to keep this brief. Peace.”

    Oh gail, I failed to say you forgot to show him the “respect” he thinks he deserves. You dared to question and disagree. (So now we know the real meaning behind his “love” and “respect”. hmmm. What frauds.

    Liked by 2 people

  33. “My Xpastor gave a sermon about giving God thanks for being abused.”-gm370

    I have a great comeback to these insensitive types that STOPS THEM DEAD in their tracks each and every time. I respond with, “I’m going to punch you in the nose right now until you bleed. And you’re going to be grateful for it and so grateful you won’t even call the police but realize that you had it coming!” Works like a charm. They are stunned each and every time and it shuts them up! LOL!

    Liked by 4 people

  34. Thinking that God plans everything – including child rape – that happens down to the last detail is, except for being cruel to the victim and slanderous towards the heart of God, also illogical.

    The mere fact that God tells people things like “do not…” and that the Bible mentions some things as sin, meaning it goes against the will of God, means that some things are not the things God wants to happen.

    Liked by 4 people

  35. It was a PR move for P&P, IMO.

    I’m not sure if I’m understanding the above statement correctly, but I’ll give my thoughts anyway. I don’t think it was a PR move (for Wade OR JD). I think Wade was legitimately trying to gain understanding from JD’s side. Wade does understand spiritual abuse and bully behavior, but I think he was hopeful that JD wasn’t as bad as his image portrayed. Dee also talked with him, as did I. At the time I talked with JD, he seemed humble and sincere. I shared with him about how he had treated me on Twitter privately. He apologized for that exchange. (Now, looking back, he also said he did not remember our exchange – I find that odd now.)

    He shared some very personal info and I was marginally hopeful that maybe the death of Braxton Caner, along with the fact that he said he was under his elders’ watch, meant that there was a possibility of a new course of direction for JD. Sadly, this change was not a lasting one.

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  36. My Xpastor gave a sermon about giving God thanks for being abused. I was shocked because he ended his sermon by saying; “however, there are some of you who will refuse to give God thanks for being abused, and by refusing you might be resisting God’s healing”
    He then said this, “you will be spitting on the authority of the scriptures by your refusal.” Then he spit across the pulpit. I s*** you not.

    Un-freakin-believable. I will stop now before I get moderated. Ugh, Gail!

    Like

  37. Gail,

    Others have already made a similar point, but it simply is not true that God, who loves you beyond our ability to imagine, orchestrated and designed the sexual abuse that happened to you–not even in a general sense, much less down to the last detail. The satan (the accuser) no doubt designs and wills sexual abuse, but God does not. Only the satan could want us to believe that whatever has happened to us was supposed to happen, and is of God. Sexual abuse is NOT supposed to happen. Sexual abuse is, again, of the satan. To say that it is of God is blasphemous. I am so sorry that Wade Burleson said things that nearly destroyed you. I am so glad you chose and are choosing life over death.

    If some here are troubled that I am so hard on Ps. Burleson for what he did to you, I am sorry. I do not doubt that Burleson has ministered healing to many. Because of this I will not now discredit the man himself. However, we must not fail to speak, even to one we love and respect, when that one speaks and does things that destroy. I dare say that when our respect and love (or intimidation or whatever) make us reluctant to speak truth to ecclesiastical power, our silence is a source for much of the evil that seems to be cropping up within so much of evangelicalism.

    Know, Oasis, that you, and all the others who have suffered as you have suffered, must surely be amongst the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. It’s in the Bible.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Oops! That last post of mine was meant to be addressed to Oasis. Come to think of it, though, what I intended to address to Oasis could as easily have been addressed to Gail, and others.

    Still, so sorry Oasis. What a faux pax on my part.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. “Sadly, this change was not a lasting one.”

    That was my point. It was a PR move and people were used to that end. If it had been a conviction from the Holy Spirit why did it take the suicide of the young man he targeted and the subsequent pushback about his prior twitter exchange and all the other abuses the P&P guys were known for? Remember all the bad media at the time? Even CT covered it. He was desperate to get his “repentence” out.

    Why could he not see the problem with his patterns of abuse earlier as a “man of God”. And since when do we buy into being held accountable by “elders”. These are men who have agreed with his teaching! He laid low for a while, though. Another fraud for Jesus.

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  40. “He was desperate to get his “repentence” out.”

    Yup. It’s reminiscent of the predatory husband doing whatever he can to patch it up with his target wife, so he doesn’t have to suffer the consequences of his crimes.

    And:

    “This is a touchy subject obviously. I won’t be popular.”

    In my experience, it’s lonely being right.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. Gary, thank you for your beautiful words about God! They are healing words of life, precious truths to me, and I can never read or hear those kinds of wonderful things enough.

    And your accidental name switch is perfect, since yes, what you said can easily be addressed to Gail and many others.

    Liked by 1 person

  42. gm,
    Thank you for your prayers for my daughter and tiny Mikey. Being a grandmother is awesome. I didn’t think I would ever have the opportunity again, but the Lord has truly blessed us.

    Like

  43. Persephone,
    Where 2 or more are gathered in His name, he will be in the midst. Since you both had goats, I think that makes it all the better.

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  44. Good morning SSB,

    I loved reading everyone’s comments to Oasis! She is a peach. Thanks, Gary W & Lydia!

    “So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away; and I went embittered in the rage of my spirit, and the hand of the LORD was strong on me” Ezekiel 3:14
    ^
    ^
    ^ So much for not being angry, ha ha. ( Go easy on me Bible scholars, I am having some fun with Ezekiel)

    Yes, I am angry how I tied myself up in knots over swallowing the teachings of determinism. Twenty years of beating myself up, questioning how God could love a mess like me, p***** me off to no end today. Oh, I was the model step ford woman on the outside, but inside I was full of shame, guilt, anxiety, fear from the toxic & brutal teachings.
    Methinks being angry, at this is stage of the game, is part of my healing process. FWIW, I know about letting no corrupt communication… I didn’t swear for years, well, not out loud, only under my breath. Choice words are part of my repentance for being a Pharisee sitting at the feet of the dear leaders who hoodwinked me.

    Liked by 4 people

  45. Scripture says be angry but do not sin. Anger is O.K.

    Scripture also says don’t let the sun set on your anger. I am coming to believe this means we should do something about the anger-making situation without delay. In other words, we are admonished to avoid repressing or stuffing our anger. It is a law that unexpressed anger will always, almost without exception, coming out sideways. It may be that we must ultimately resolve our anger by laying it at the Cross, which may be the only means of avoiding the temptation to pursue vengeance. Laying our anger at the Cross stops the cycle of violence, which itself proceeds from the law of sowing and reaping. Still, we may angrily lay our anger at the Cross.

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  46. I love watching discussions like what has happened here. Thank you, everyone, for being so supportive to each other. You all are wonderful!

    Liked by 1 person

  47. “Methinks being angry, at this is stage of the game, is part of my healing process. FWIW, I know about letting no corrupt communication… I didn’t swear for years, well, not out loud, only under my breath. Choice words are part of my repentance for being a Pharisee sitting at the feet of the dear leaders who hoodwinked me.”

    Sometime ago I did some digging on 1st Century Jewish insults. Jesus did a pretty good job with it.:o) White washed tombs, brood of vipers, etc. Not to mention
    “woe to you” which was quite alarming at the time.

    I worry about victims and those around them who never get angry or think it is a sin to get angry. I think it is creepy that people can hear/see injustice and end up chiding the victim without so much as doing any checking at all. I do not consider those types safe people. They are usually followers of some cult of personality or something like that. It is not an identity in Christ, that much I do know.

    Without anger so many injustices would still remain like slavery, Jim crow, sufferage, child labor, etc, etc. That is channeling anger over injustice– for good. It is good to have anger over spiritual abuse. Our Lord is blasphemed by spiritual abuse and His chldren harmed. Positive change starts with anger over the injustice.

    Healthy anger. It is part of the process. So the next time someone accuses you of being angry about spritual, physical abuse, etc…. just ask them, “how come you aren’t, too”? Tell them you find it scary they aren’t. Next time they call you bitter, ask them nicely to define it and get into a deep discussion on the meaning of bitter. Trust me, they will never ask again. :o). (Kind of like Michaela and her punching for Jesus above. Hee Hee)

    I am still angry and grateful I can feel it. Too much wasted energy on being guilted over anger, defending it or hiding it— when the best way is to channel it.

    Liked by 4 people

  48. Gail, I believe God is offended when people thank him for sin and evil. He hates child sexual abuse, and every other kind of abuse, and it does not come from him, and it is never his idea or his choice for anyone. I do not know this pro-rape Jesus and I never will, because he does not exist.

    Oasis, I fully agree with you. You are absolutely right. James tells us we are not to blame God when we are tempted to sin because He doesn’t tempt anyone. If He doesn’t tempt us to sin then He didn’t tempt the rapist to rape either. God is not the one who put that sin in his heart. I conclude from James that it is just as wrong to say a person’s sin against us is from God as it is to blame God for our own sin, because God does not tempt anyone. Why then do we say it was His idea that it happened?

    I actually don’t want an answer to that question because I don’t want to be exposed to the kind of mental gymnastics that have to be exercised to defend the idea the abuse was from God, nor do I want to know what would motivate someone to put forth their energies in that direction or why they would think doing so would glorify Him.

    I do like Michaela’s answer to that sort of thing. Yep.

    Liked by 3 people

  49. @Lydia00:

    On a lighter note, someone sent me this today and asked if I knew anyone who might fit part of the descriptors contained in here. Funny thing as I thought, they were all in ministry!

    (Mr Invincible video)

    “For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light”
    — 2 Cor 11

    “Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of the altar!”
    — Screwtape

    Liked by 2 people

  50. Barnabas, understand, because those mental gymnastics lead to very dark places with rape apologia. I always compare it to chasing the white rabbit and falling into the Wonderland nightmare, because in that place, there is only madness. But if Alice can realize she’s dreaming and wake herself up from that warped reality, from what is trying to kill her, then she will be back on level ground, where the sun is shining and where she can get up and go on with her life.

    Thank you for what you said about what can be found in James. I absolutely love thinking about what he said there, love dissecting his words and the places they lead. Pure joy and comfort for me.

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  51. Thank you for what you said about what can be found in James. I absolutely love thinking about what he said there, love dissecting his words and the places they lead. Pure joy and comfort for me.

    Oh good. 🙂

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  52. I want to echo what Kathi said, about all of the support… Sometimes, when it comes to certain kinds of spiritual recovery and support, the need is ignored or unrecognized, and there seems to be almost no help or understanding anywhere, so…to me, it means so much. You just have no idea how strengthening it is, even just reading a few sentences on a blog…or that you, Gary, made me cry. Thank you.

    Liked by 2 people

  53. I am doing church here this morning and what a blessing this is to my soul. So very inspired in my faith in Jesus through the respectful, loving, and caring relationships on this blog. I feel so loved by what I am witnessing here. God bless all of you.

    Liked by 2 people

  54. I like and respect Ps. Wade. I am often taken aback that he is Reformed because much of what he has taught would totally tick off Piper, MacArthur, Mohler, etc. For example, his link to “Let the Sisters Preach!” as well as his historical account of what was happening in Ephesus, were all in defense of women. I think he is a humble man on a spiritual journey like the rest of us here at SSB.

    Wade, if you are reading, please reconsider the doctrine of hell (tentmaker.org is a great place to start), and seriously, could Billy Graham be all wrong? And to paraphrase John Piper, the horrible doctrine of limited atonement has to be true because without it, the horrible doctrine of hell falls apart. If meticulous sovereignity is true (God plots and carries out evil plans for his creatures), and election is true (God has created the vast majority of humans in his image for the express of torturing them forever) then Satan has no role left; he and Jesus are working toward the same end.
    Satan has pummeled Oasis and much of the church is alienating her from the one who truly loves her and can heal her (God) by pointing the finger at Him.

    And on a personal note, “aionios” does not mean “aionios”! It completely depends on the nature of the noun being described, even if the word appears twice in the same sentence.

    And on another note, we all have the awesome ministry of reconciliation, helping others to understand they have been reconciled to God, and helping them to be reconciled to each other. So I am praying for by bro Wade, and my sis, Oasis. My we become what we were meant to be. Love to you both, love to you all.

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  55. Oasis,

    You wrote of me: “Gary, he (Wade) specifically told me that God orchestrated and designed the sexual abuse that happened to me, down to the last detail. God designs sexual abuse. He said to many that whatever has happened to us was supposed to happen, and was of God. Sexual abuse is supposed to happen. Sexual abuse is of God.”

    I desire to be fair and gracious to you, realizing that one’s perception is one’s reality. Coming from an extended family where there has been horrible sexual abuse, being one who has sought to hold accountable abusers in the SBC, and helping many men and women who have suffered through abuse–albeit recognizing my own failures and imperfections in being able to help anyone apart from God’s love and grace in my life and theirs–I am not unfamiliar with the pain of abuse.

    If you can produce a written comment, or an audio tape, or any other form of communication from me to you that contains what you represented in the ‘paragraph above’ of what I said to you, I will be more than happy to instantly apologize and seek your forgiveness.

    I must see it though, for what you’ve written in this forum about what I allegedly told you is so foreign to my thought process, so contrary to my teaching, and so opposite of what I would ever say to anyone who has suffered abuse, that I would simply ask that you either produce the communication from me to you (since we’ve never spoken to one another) or… — well, truth be known, I learned a long time ago that it’s fruitless to request apologies for what I deem slander because–again–one’s perception is one’s reality. It’s obvious you believe I wrote such a thing to you. I’m only asking you to produce the evidence to let others judge for themselves.

    Wartburg Watch does not delete any comment thread. It seems to me that it is up to you to produce the source document to prove your statements true, and if you cannot, I would simply ask that people in this forum give to me the benefit of a doubt and realize that your perceptions may be your reality, but they are not mine.

    Wade

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  56. Hi Wade,

    Thanks for your willingness to address this issue with Oasis – especially if there is a misunderstanding, it would be good to clear that up.

    I might be able to help with the timeframe as I remember Oasis commenting about it around the time I started the Calvinist debate threads (to free the debate from current unrelated blog articles). I’ll see if I can find an approximate date and then we can go from there.

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  57. Oasis: Is this the thread from TWW you are referring? http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/25/echurchwartburg-5-26-13/

    If you would like to address Wade on your concerns, please do me a favor and discuss it at this thread: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/02/its-calvinism-free-for-all-off-the-top-of-your-head-part-2/

    I like to keep the Sunday gathering posts free from debate as much as possible so people can be refreshed. This topic can get heated. Thanks!

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  58. [mod removed comment]

    Wade, we have never spoken to each other? Really?

    We have already been through this. I have already run that errand for you once. I went over to TWW for the first time in many months, last year or so, to hunt down various threads there for you, when you requested them on Argo’s blog. Why should I do this again for you?

    You are unfamiliar with my pain entirely, and once again, you add to it, by questioning my perceptions, which we both know are based in truth. How can you even type “request apologies” to me? I practically quoted you word-for-word earlier in this thread. Do you have any idea of the torture you helped put me through? God knows, and unlike so many others, God actually cares and thinks it matters, too.

    [mod removed personal attack] You are able to fool great numbers of people in many ways, but I am not one of them. Your fans will rally behind you and I will be the one who misunderstands you, because the people whose opinions you are concerned about will believe whatever you tell them. They can write me off any way they choose; my only intention is to warn vulnerable abuse victims.

    Julie Anne, that was but one of the threads, but no worries, not at all interested in debating with someone who could very well be a sociopath, in my opinion.

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  59. Julie Anne,

    I get that Sunday’s gatherings are a place to be refreshed. That said, it has been refreshing to me to read what Oasis shared & the supportive feedback that all have given to her. I guess I am having a hard time understanding why you want to move the conversation over to the calvinism thread. It’s your blog, you get to make the call, but I am perplexed, any thoughts would be appreciated.

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  60. Oasis – I did not approve your comment because it contained several personal attacks against Wade. We can disagree about doctrines, but attacking personally is not allowed. If you are not interested in discussing the issue, then that’s all you need to say. I think in the future, if you are going to credit someone with saying certain information, it’s important to provide links so readers (and the accused) can see for themselves and come to their own conclusions. Thank you.

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  61. Julie Anne, what you call “personal attacks,” I call “speaking the truth,” and I do not apologize for it. Anyone can see from the thread you linked to that Wade has, in fact, spoken to me before. He claimed never to have spoken to me the last time we talked, too, right before he pretended never to have said what he was shown to have said.

    No idea what comment you are referring to, since I only posted one, and I can see it. Maybe you accidentally let it through?

    There is plenty of proof in conversations and videos on TWW from February of 2013. There is at least one other particular conversation that I spent hours searching for but for some reason cannot find, where I told him his words to me felt like spiritual abuse…but doing all of this watching and reading tonight has been very triggering and upsetting to me, so…no more. Unfortunately, not being able to find that one thread in particular will make me look like a liar, which is upsetting me even more…but I stand by everything I said.

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  62. “Satan has pummeled Oasis and much of the church is alienating her from the one who truly loves her and can heal her (God) by pointing the finger at Him.”

    Thank you for recognizing this, jkpvarin. Means so, so much to me! Thank you x 1000.

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  63. There is plenty of proof in conversations and videos on TWW from February of 2013. There is at least one other particular conversation that I spent hours searching for but for some reason cannot find, where I told him his words to me felt like spiritual abuse…but doing all of this watching and reading tonight has been very triggering and upsetting to me, so…no more. Unfortunately, not being able to find that one thread in particular will make me look like a liar, which is upsetting me even more…but I stand by everything I said.

    About the parts I bolded, I was thinking something along these lines myself last night.

    Oasis, as far as I’m concerned (and speaking just for me) I don’t need for you to go hunting for a comment, especially when that process must be painful for you. There is plenty of information on Wade between his own blog and TWW that I can go reference at any time to see what kind of person he is and what he teaches, and decide how he strikes me from his own mouth and writings.

    He’s a big boy, surely, and can no doubt take care of himself.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. Oasis,

    When I said “spoken’ I was referring to audio (phone, in person, etc…). Of course we have exchanged comments – I call that writing. All I’m asking is that you produce the writing that represents I believe “sexual abuse is of God.” I think you are fighting your perception of what I believe (which is your reality), but I actually believe that if anyone writes sexual abuse is ‘of God’ it would be to assign the responsibility and culpability for sin to God which is contrary to the truth that man is responsible and culpable for all sin. In other words, I totally disagree with what you say I believe. It’s only my desire to clear up any wrong perceptions you may have, but I am more than willing to step out of the conversation if that is more helpful. I know the Lord will continue to give you grace for healing.

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  65. Gail –

    The conversation has shifted to personal attacks and debate. I know that Oasis views Wade’s comments as not safe and so it was for her benefit and others that I have requested we move this to the Calvin debate thread.

    Updated: Gary has since posted. Let’s see if cool heads can prevail here in this thread. I want Sunday Gatherings threads (even on Wednesday – lol) to feel safe for all.

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  66. No idea what comment you are referring to, since I only posted one, and I can see it. Maybe you accidentally let it through?

    Yup, that must have been what happened. Even if what you believe you are saying is the truth, there are ways to say it without being a personal attack:

    Ie, “you are a liar” vs. “I have a hard time believing those words as true”

    One is directly attacking the person, the other shifts the focus to the words.

    Personal attacks shut down conversation where discussing content allows for healthy conversation. Thank you.

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  67. Wade,

    Thank you for taking the time and expending the effort to participate here. I can see that your perception (which is your reality) is that Oasis is misstating what you said (or wrote). What I’m wondering is if you could produce something you have published online regarding the relationship between the sovereignty of God and little girl rape, or even just evil in general.

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  68. Thanks Julie-Anne for explaining why you wanted to move this. It helps my heart that you said it was for “her benefit.” I understand that you don’t like personal attacks, but am baffled why it is ok to attack Gothard & others based on what people have experienced at their hands…

    This is difficult on so many levels, but it reflects what goes on in real life, it is messy & uncomfortable. I know that I have done the same thing that Oasis did… She named her truth, that takes guts.

    I can understand why Oasis felt Wade was lying when he said they hadn’t spoken. Maybe cooler heads will prevail this morning. I had one tough time last night, after I read what Wade wrote to Oasis, I ended up going through my old documents from 1993 to find the letter I wrote to my x pastor because I had quoted him above in earlier comment, and was worried about my words being deemed as slander.

    “well, truth be known, I learned a long time ago that it’s fruitless to request apologies for what I deem slander because–again–one’s perception is one’s reality. It’s obvious you believe I wrote such a thing to you. I’m only asking you to produce the evidence to let others judge for themselves.”

    Praying for all.

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  69. Apparently Oasis has experienced some severe trauma. I am very sorry for your pain and for the suffering you must experience daily. I hope you are being patient with yourself and have people in your life who validate you.
    I know my own trauma has made me very sensitive at times and alienated from others. It is easy to fixate on one person or experience and ruminate for days on end. (That is why I am thankful for medication to take the edge off! ). 🙂 Whatever the communication is that you had with Wade, it is probably not helpful for your own health to continue your interaction with him.
    Wade, in your line of work, I am sure you deal with many hurting people. I know as a public figure it is easy to be misunderstood or an easy figure to absorb other people’s pain. Thank you for showing patience with Oasis and not attacking her. I look forward to the Kingdom where God’s love and mercy allows for perfect communication and love for one another.

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Gary W.

    You are welcome.

    I wrote a post entitled “The Prince of Evil Overruled by the King of Good”
    Link: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/10/the-prince-of-evil-overruled-by-king-of.html

    This article will answer your questions and accurately represents what I believe.

    Oasis, I wonder if you would be willing to admit that maybe you have deduced certain things about what I believe based upon your perceptions, possibly influenced by others? Just asking. I’m not saying you are lying. That’s not even on my radar. I’m suggesting that maybe your perceptions of me (which is your reality) are not my reality. I would suggest you stop searching for support in my writings of what you have said I believe because you will be unable to find anything even close in anything I’ve written.

    No need for shame. It’s difficult to have relationship with people via online, but there’s no way I could allow what I deem to be a false representation of what I believe to stand without being challenged. On one of the links Julie Anne put up from TWW, there was a comment from someone named Argo who wrongly represented what I believed to others as well. I called him on it. He apologized.

    I have no ill will toward you, nor am I asking you to run any errands for me in terms of ‘looking up what I write.’ I would not have even commented here were it not for your statements about what I allegedly believe. I personally believe to allow your words to go unchallenged cause more damage than you can imagine. I came and asked you to support your allegations. The fact that you can’t find it is neither unexpected nor surprising to me.

    I consider this matter closed and wish God’s continued grace and mercy to you in your recovery and healing from horrible, God-awful abuse, at the hands of wicked, evil people (not God).

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  71. Thanks Julie-Anne for explaining why you wanted to move this. It helps my heart that you said it was for “her benefit.” I understand that you don’t like personal attacks, but am baffled why it is ok to attack Gothard & others based on what people have experienced at their hands…

    Boy, that’s a great question. I see this as different. Gothard has used his position of authority to take advantage of young women sexually, emotionally. Gothard has twisted scripture to encourage parents to beat their children. Gothard has twisted scripture to endorse and encourage Patriarchy which elevates man to god-like status, and women are treated as less-thans. You need to go along with Gothard’s line of thinking/beliefs to be accepted in his group. (This is cult-like behavior.)

    Wade is strongly against pastors using spiritual authority over congregants. He highly respects women and gives them important roles in church. I don’t believe him to be an abuser.

    I do think that there can be confusion in the doctrinal beliefs. For example, you can find the Calvinist teaching on predestination to be abusive and thus label every Calvinist as abusive based on that belief. Is that right to be that black/white with people?

    I simply cannot go to that point. I have dear friends who hold to their Calvinist beliefs, but they allow me to come to my own doctrinal conclusions. I see Wade holding on to his doctrinal beliefs, but do not see that he pushes them on anyone. He’s not going to kick someone out of church because they haven’t come to the same conclusion. He’s respectful to you whether you choose to align with what he believes or not. So, in that respect, how can Wade be abusive?

    To cut to the chase, I think this is the question that is being asked indirectly:

    Are all Calvinists abusers?

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  72. Julie Anne… I think honesty is essential for healthy communication, and it would have been dishonest of me to word it as you suggest. I am one of those John the Baptist types, if you know what I mean. But this is your blog, of course, and I understand that you disagree and did not appreciate some of my wording.

    I do remember that you, Julie Anne, told me that you considered it spiritual abuse to teach a determinist god, when we first talked about our abusive childhoods. Maybe that was before I mentioned Wade’s name.

    Ann, thanks for your kind sentiment. I definitely do not want to continue this conversation, at all. Never intended my initial warning to turn into what it has, or into anything. Really need to step away from here now. Bye!

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  73. Wade, just saw your comment, and you are making me very angry. I have a very good memory, and the conversations I have been unable to find are not figments of my imagination. God knows.

    And, shame? What in the world are you talking about? I am not Argo. What I am, is absolutely nauseated. Please do me a favor and never speak to me again.

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  74. The whole spiritual abuse issue is an interesting one. For me, I have never understood why we cannot name it and deal with it in a common sense manner. For example, when we see patterns of behavior in dealing with spiritual abusers, do we ignore it? Why can’t we simply to point to wrong doing/evil, name it and discuss it?

    Why are there those in leadership who simply cannot walk away from toxic unhealthy bullies, either. Why do they feel the need to rehab them to the world? I am speaking of Wade’s position on JD Hall. And before that Paige Patterson, etc. It seems he is always trying to rehab toxic bullies who claim they are only teaching what the bible says and even make a living with that claim. There are unhealthy toxic abusers out there in leadership positions within Christendom that one shouild NOT trust any instant reconciliation and/or repentance with because of long time patterns. Let them go away quietly if that is possible. Why the rehab at the expense of their victims? It seems to me such claims at repentance after years of patterns of abusive behavior could take years to see if the fruit is real or plastic.

    I find it disrespectful to those who have been abused. I understand the arguments for it as in ‘God loves them, too’, and they claim they are repentent. (Only time will tell) I just do not buy into the methods. Why not encourage them to step down and be done with it? Why all the rehab and public reconciliation so quickly? There has been a pattern of this.

    I don’t see the whole issue as doctrinal at all. I do think determinism makes it worse.

    I won’t interact on this any more. It is futile.

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  75. J.A.-“To cut to the chase, I think this is the question that is being asked indirectly:
    Are all Calvinists abusers?

    Obviously, the answer is no. There are gracious souls in all camps. It is the concept of determinism that drove me to despair, to the point of trying to commit suicide. If others want to take on the question I will be interested in what is said. I imagine that discussion will take place on the other thread. ( :

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  76. Oasis,

    You write: “Please do me a favor and never speak to me again”

    If by speaking, you mean ‘writing,’ I will make that promise with a condition. If you will refrain from writing and representing to others that I (Wade Burleson) allegedly believe, think, and teach that God “causes and designs sexual abuse” (or any other sin for that matter), then I will make that promise to you. May the Lord continue to give you grace and mercy in your time of healing. I will step out of the conversation with thanks to Julie Anne for her graciousness in allowing it to occur.

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  77. “Oasis: Is this the thread from TWW you are referring? http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/25/

    JA, Just to note. That is not the thread I was referring to at all in my comment. The discussion on the thread I referred to was around whether God orchestrates events and how that works with child rape, etc.

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  78. Lydia – – This is a tough situation when dealing with abuse. Do abusers ever realize the damage they have done and come to full repentance? Does Christ do redemptive work or not? I think for those who attempt to reach out, they are putting their hope in Christ and His redemptive work, hoping beyond all hopes that there will be a “great awakening.” Many times it is futile. But what’s the use of being a Christian if we don’t believe that Christ works through us to affect change?

    On the other side of the coin is the habitual abuser who shows no signs of remorse, desire to change, and only focuses on self. Surely there is an appropriate response there: put them out.

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  79. I do remember that you, Julie Anne, told me that you considered it spiritual abuse to teach a determinist god,

    If I remember that conversation, I mentioned that determinist teachings can be dangerous to people who have gone through abuse. I’m not sure that I worded it as you have put it. The issue is that if I am forced to believe that doctrine as the correct doctrine, then it would probably do me in. No one has ever forced me to believe that doctrine and so I wholly reject it for my emotional and spiritual sanity. I think that doctrine paints God out to be evil – that He chose that I would be abused my whole childhood by the dad who adopted me, that He chose for me to be married to someone who holds to Patriarchal teachings. Nope, I reject that. There is no love in that. You can’t have a loving father who protects his children and one who says, I put you there to get beaten in the same paragraph.

    Liked by 2 people

  80. JA, Just to note. That is not the thread I was referring to at all in my comment. The discussion on the thread I referred to was around whether God orchestrates events and how that works with child rape, etc.

    Yea, I was searching and this was one I found with a lot of comments. I was looking for a thread in which Oasis was involved (not looking specifically for your name). I wasn’t even sure this was the one Oasis was referring to.

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  81. Oasis – I am very sorry that this has stirred up stuff for you. Please take care of yourself and feel no need to comment/engage in the discussion. I fully understand and felt an instant connection with you about the God as Abusive God as far as the determinist view. In fact, in reading your struggles, you helped me put together a piece of my puzzle which was so important in my recovery. It can be crazy making and you helped me. Thank you.

    I’m unclear on what happened personally between you and Wade, but that’s okay. Sometimes it’s best just to let it go.

    Thank you for sharing your heart and your honesty and respecting the boundaries here. I greatly appreciate it.

    Liked by 1 person

  82. “Lydia – – This is a tough situation when dealing with abuse. Do abusers ever realize the damage they have done and come to full repentance? Does Christ do redemptive work or not? I think for those who attempt to reach out, they are putting their hope in Christ and His redemptive work, hoping beyond all hopes that there will be a “great awakening.” Many times it is futile. But what’s the use of being a Christian if we don’t believe that Christ works through us to affect change? ”

    It is not really that tough. Is the person making a living off teaching Jesus to others? How many people are they influencing with their behavior and how many people are influenced by cheap grace? That really should come into the equation at some point. Why focus on instant reconcilation/repentance when they have been teaching others about Jesus and that is how they make their living. Should they be affirmed to carry the same influence as teachers/preachers of God’s truth? Did they not know better before? Are our standards for teachers/preachers lower than for ourselves? Would it not make sense to encourage them to step down? If not for the sake of respecting their victims then for the sake of their own souls?

    I have doubts God affects change when the issue is really about keeping positions/influence. Perhaps we need to take a look at what is really at stake here? One example: JD called the tweeting a mistake. But it was much more:It was pure evil. It was obviously the way he thinks.And the pattern of bullying others was there for many years prior. So would it not be more fitting and healthy for him to step down, go away from the public eye as a leader and get to know the real Jesus?

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  83. Gail: I have hid your post temporarily. I’m asking Wade if he has time to respond to it, and if he does, I’d like to make it into a separate post.. I think this could be very beneficial to all.

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  84. Julie Anne, you called it that many times, and it was very validating to me. But regardless, please know how very happy and glad it makes me to know that I helped you in some way. That means everything to me. You helped me, too, back then. You showed me that I was not alone, not the only one with that gut-wrenching pain. Makes me cry to remember. Thanks for your support back then.

    “…I’d like to make it into a separate post.. I think this could be very beneficial to all.”

    Not to me. In that scenario, I fully expect to get sick, as the wool is artfully pulled over many people’s eyes. So, this is probably it for me. But please, Julie Anne, if you ever do come across anyone who shares that particular pain, and needs support, to talk to someone who gets it, please tell that person that he/she can always contact me, if he/she wants, and give him/her my e-mail address? Thank you so much.

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  85. Pingback: Abuse Survivors Question the Idea That Nothing Happens in Your Life – Even Abuse – That God Does Not Permit | Spiritual Sounding Board

  86. Oasis –

    I remember that week well – – it was a difficult one. Just reading your comment to me brought tears to my mind as I remembered that week. It was an intensely emotional week for both of us. Thank you!

    Please feel free to skip the next post. I’m glad you have good boundaries.

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  87. From a mom’s perspective,

    Question – Motive/heart/intention: Can a person have the best intention yet still do damage? Can moms chose to believe/live/instill wrong teachings while all along our motives are pure? Can well-meaning moms teach harmful beliefs to kids? Can friends? Can well-meaning pastors teach harmful beliefs that do real damage? I think good people can unintentionally leave scars, even with those they love. It’s painful, but this is what I’ve learned & it is worth working to prevent through open discussion, IMO.

    Question – Is God a puppet-master who created mere puppets? Is the answer important in helping abused? Non-reformed pastors who teach personal choice/responsibility can chose to abuse BUT if they reconcile it back to God they are hypocrites by their own teaching. My question is this – what impact does the reformed faith (or any belief of zero human choice) have on abused & abuser? Does it condone damage or does it set the captive free?

    Wade – You seem to be a great guy & have done many good things (disaster relief, etc). I agree with your stance on women teachers & tangible help for others & I’m sure we would see eye to eye on so may other topics as well. But your teaching that God’s love is irresistible (zero choice) yet people choose (by God forcing them) is deceptive & damaging contradiction, IMO. This teaching leaves abused in despair. And I think it’s a huge issue among the hurting “nones” & “dones” & silent ones.

    Are there sweet reformed friends/moms/dads/pastors? Of course. There are lovely people, with good intentions, who’s beliefs in an irresistible God are harmful, in particular to the already abused around us. Are their beliefs beyond discussion or reproof because they are good, kind folks?

    IMO, standing up for the abused means speaking up to say God is not a puppet-master with human puppets… no matter who claims it, even if it’s sweet Grandma, a dear sweet long-time friend, or beloved pastor. I did the heavy thinking & changed my own personal viewpoint to say I was wrong.

    Oasis – Thank you for deciding to speak up. Your action (not God’s controlling hand in evil) works good. All can & do make a difference, for good or evil, each with consequences. God gave each of us the choice, just as parents don’t ultimately control children. God cheers for good & weeps at evil. Cheering you on. YOU amaze me.

    Liked by 3 people

  88. This is an interesting comment thread. I was not sure what to think about it all until I read the comments in the links that Oasis posted. After reading the comments in those threads from two years ago, especially those from Mr. Burleson, it is easy for anyone to see Mr. Burleson actually believes the very opposite of what Oasis represents him to believe in this thread. I find this utterly strange.

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  89. “This is an interesting comment thread. I was not sure what to think about it all until I read the comments in the links that Oasis posted. After reading the comments in those threads from two years ago, especially those from Mr. Burleson, it is easy for anyone to see Mr. Burleson actually believes the very opposite of what Oasis represents him to believe in this thread. I find this utterly strange”

    It could be because you are not seeing the cognitive dissonance in what he presents as his beliefs. And he is entitled to his beliefs and what he teaches. In the next thread it is discussed more in depth that might give you some insight into the results of those beliefs when taken to their logical conclusions. Maybe not.

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