There is nothing that happens in your life that God does not permit – – even abuse?
We got in a heated discussion in the comments on the last post regarding the determinist belief that nothing happens in our lives that God does not permit. For people who have been abused, that is a tough pill to swallow. For abuse survivors, please be careful. This discussion could be triggering.
This determinist belief seems to contradict the idea of a kind and loving Father who protects His children. Gail asked Pastor Wade Burleson specific questions and I thought it would be best to put them in a new blog post to keep this topic together.
Here is Gail’s comment to Wade which I also sent to him in an e-mail:
Wade,
I just listened to one of the sermons that Oasis linked on the other thread. I have a few questions & observations. I will be quoting some of what you said to clear up any confusion to those who didn’t listen.
“Every affliction in your life is of the Lord, all of it is.”
I was molested at five years old by my father, by another again at seven the list doesn’t stop there, for time sake I will be brief. Do you believe child rape is a affliction?
I do not understand what you meant when you said “affliction is of the Lord” but “not from the Lord.” What does that even mean?
“Nothing happens in your life that God either permits, promotes or prohibits”
Okay, so God could have prohibited my abuse? Or He permitted it? Wow, that sounds like God was implicit in what tore me to shreds as a girl.
Can you understand why your words cause turmoil inside of me?
I trust that you meant what you said in your sermon, that you are learning, growing from this interaction also with Oasis.
Would you consider that perhaps you miscommunicated with her? You keep insisting that you are not in the wrong at all, that she has her perception which makes it her reality, which implies at least to me that she is not telling the truth.
I will be out the rest of the afternoon, if I don’t respond I am not ignoring you, just have a full day.
Wade responded back to my e-mail and gave me permission to post his response to Gail’s questions:
I can sure understand that there are triggers for anyone who has undergone abuse. I would like to answer Gail’s questions, and feel free if you would like to use them.
(1). “Every affliction in your life is of the Lord, all of it is”
God says “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7). The word disaster is better translated (in my opinion) “affliction.”
However, there must be some caveats and qualifications with any understanding of this Isaiah passage of scripture. The Bible never contradicts itself – ever. We also read “For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone (to do evil); But each one is tempted (to do evil) when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (James 1:13-14). So when I (or anyone) says God “affliction is of the Lord” it NEVER means He causes, designs, authors, or creates EVIL.” Not at all.
“Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights” (James 1:17). God only creates good. Man and fallen angels create evil. When I say “Affliction is of God” I mean God is able to take what man creates (evil) and orchestrate good from it. Evil is not good, nor is good evil – rather, God is able to turn what man meant for evil into good. God is never responsible for evil. He is only and always the author of good.
(2). “I was molested at five years old by my father, by another again at seven the list doesn’t stop there, for time sake I will be brief. Do you believe child rape is an affliction?”
Rape is evil. Rape is a crime. The rapist alone is responsible for the unspeakable horror. What I believe is that somehow, someway, God will produce good from evil. For example, the punishment of the rapist at the Judgment will be a good thing. The ultimate healing of the victim of rape through the love, mercy and kindness of God will be a good thing. The question that you seem to be asking is simple: “DID GOD CAUSE THE RAPE?” My answer: “GOOD GOD NO.”
I do believe that God allows evil to occur (that He doesn’t cause) because He will ultimately bring about an eternal greater good.
My example would be the beheading of the Coptic Christians in Lebanon. Did God cause this to happen? No. Will ultimate good come from it? Yes.
“For we know that God works all things together for good to them who are the called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
(3). “I do not understand what you meant when you said ‘affliction is of the Lord’ but ‘not from the Lord. What does that even mean?”
It simple means that God does not create, cause or author evil (‘from the Lord’), but God will allow and permit evil because of an ultimate greater good that is coming, including the display of His holiness and justice in the punishment of the sinner and His mercy, goodness and kindness in the redemption of the victim.
(4). “Can you understand your words cause turmoil inside me?”
Yes. Absolutely. There’s wisdom in simply being there for someone whose been abused in the beginning, showing love. However, if I didn’t believe that ultimately the only hope of real recovery from deep, intense scars of past abuse is the knowledge that good IS COMING (the abuse is NOT GOOD), but good is coming, then I would remain silent about these things forever. I only speak of what I see Romans 8:28 to teach when asked. I never offer it until asked.
(5). “Would you consider that perhaps you miscommunicated with her (Oasis)?”
Of course. I also have no hesitation in apologizing. I just need to be shown (because she said it was in writing), and in my opinion, I have never – ever – said “God designs sexual abuse.” I have only and always said “God designs good” and I do not believe in any form or fashion sexual abuse is good.
Wade also added the following:
I am out for the rest of the week. This is all I can offer. I would suggest that those who would like to read further what I believe to go to the link “The Prince of Evil Overcome by the King of Good.” http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/10/the-prince-of-evil-overruled-by-king-of.html
photo credit: [As seen on my run.] via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
“There is nothing that happens in your life that God does not permit – – even abuse?”
What is the alternative? That God didn’t know? That He didn’t care? That He was powerless to do anything?
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While this exchange is very interesting, I’m intrigued by the fact that Mr. Burleson seems to be far more concerned with his reputation and the “correctness” of his teaching than with the pain of a survivor of profound abuse. I wouldn’t go so far as to say “All Calvinists are abusers,” but I will say “All Calvinists seem to be far more preoccupied with themselves than with other people, which is not Christ-like.” I’ve dealt with a lot of Calvinists, and this is consistently true.
For pity’s sake, man- just apologize and let it go. Stop arguing with someone who is in pain. Stop putting concerns about your reputation above the pain of a survivor. I mean seriously, dude: cut it out. You’re not helping anyone. You’re just coming across as narcissistic and argumentative.
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Here’s a suggested wording: “If at any time I have ever communicated anything to you which has caused you pain in any way, I am truly sorry. I am imperfect as we all are imperfect. In the future I will strive mightily to communicate better and more clearly so as not to cause you further pain.” See how easy that was? This is not that difficult, dude.
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Knowing Wade as well as I do, he is my minister and I consider Rashelle and him friends for a little over 20 years, Wade is not concerned about his reputation other than if his words are wrongly misconstrued, the rest of his messages will be also and he will no longer be worth listening to, which is quite the contrary if one will listen to his messages and read his many writings to get the full picture. HIs messages give freedom in Christ, not bondage, hate or continued hurt.
In the early 1990’s, I and my family moved to Enid and began attending Emmanuel a week or so before the Burlesons arrived to fill a void in the pastorate. In that time I heard messages I had never heard before, thinking if it’s too good to be true etc. I took notes, read them and studied them daily with my Bible and found passages that I never knew were in the Bible having been in church most of my life as an Independent Baptist. I came as a beat up, abused child who had grown into a hurting adult. Wade and his family, ministry changed all that. I am now a healthy, vibrant, albeit outspoken woman who loves life, lives it to the fullest through Christ, where before it was drudgery.
No, Wade isn’t concerned about his reputation, as his fight with the SBC a few years ago proves, but he does wish to teach what scripture says on Christ, His deep love and healing our pain, and not what most think it says which is do this and do that, don’t do this and don’t dare do that. If his words are taken wrongly, so will his whole message which is of healing and a God who loves us deeply and wishes us to share in his love and healing.
Understand that my words are as I have seen this man and his family, and this comes from the deep love I have for all of them. Love doesn’t come cheaply or easily to me except when I gave birth, that was instant. Otherwise I tread lightly when it comes to trust because of the abuse and I don’t do it easily at all.
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And yet somehow, Debbie, you still managed to miss my entire point. It’s really kind of amazing.
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Ummm, she asked Wade questions, and he answered. I see nothing in his response to indicate anything other than sincere answers to sincere questions.
If you go about assuming that “all _________ are __________ ” (fill in the blank), you are likely to find evidence to support your assumption, even when it isn’t there.
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Dash, Debbie may not have read your comment before commenting. I just released it from moderation. I was in class.
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No worries, JA, it doesn’t really matter either way. I just find it interesting that Mr. Burleson can’t simply apologize and leave it at that. “The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks” is how it comes across.
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Debbie, it seems Dash may unintentionally be ignoring the statement by Oasis written in the previous post: “Beware of Pastor Wade…(he told me) that God orchestrated and designed the sexual abuse that happened to me, down to the last detail. God designs sexual abuse. He said to many that whatever has happened to us was supposed to happen, and was of God. Sexual abuse is supposed to happen. Sexual abuse is of God.”
Pastor Wade’s comments to Oasis seem to me to be gracious, but firm in calling her out on a misrepresentation of his view of God. Your comment rings with the authenticity of a 20-year pastor/parishioner relationship. It seems right that if Oasis cannot produce the documented written evidence that Pastor Wade actually believes what Oasis declares he believes, then a well-written apology from Oasis might be beneficial. Dash, you might to do more good drafting a well-crafted apology. To excuse or justify wrong behavior on the basis of victimization only leads to further dysfunction.
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Tom, I disagree with Calvinism in every conceivable way that it is possible to do so, so you’ll have to pardon me if I decide to make blanket statements about Calvinists. My frustration with Calvinism knows no bounds. I’m not going to explain why, or be drawn into an endless, intractable argument about this that or the other Calvinsit thing that Calvinists like to pontificate about, because it is precisely the endless pontificating that frustrates me about Calvinism. I don’t care what Calvinists believe, at all, ever. I’m sick of hearing about it.
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Thanks you, Dash, for proving my point.
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I wasn’t aware that I was supposed to *disprove* your point. I’m not interested in Calvinism, period. Thanks, have a nice day.
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Calvinism never fails to be a heated topic at SSB. Put on your seatbelt, folks. Kindness to all works here, but feel free to debate content.
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Let me just say here that that question above, in the title of the post is a HUGE question, and more than one person (including my partner) is agnostic/atheist because that question has never been answered in a way that they can agree with, understand, and/or believe.
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@A Kind Soul: Aaaaaaaaaaaaand here we go with the demands for apologies from the survivor. This is really predictable. How very compassionate of you.
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Lets face it, alpha males in patriarchal systems get away with whatever they want including rape and murder and are afforded grace when caught while the weak and innocent suffer from the letter of the law of an exacting and angry god. Their version of God, and people create images of God to make Him resemble their own selves. That would be both inside and out which explains the light skinned and blue-eyed Jesus and a got that spanks a six month old baby for squirming when his or her diaper is being changed.
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I get that, Hannah. It makes perfect sense to me. Sad, but true. (Phoenixtatgirl)
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“Lets face it, alpha males in patriarchal systems get away with whatever they want including rape and murder and are afforded grace when caught while the weak and innocent suffer from the letter of the law of an exacting and angry god. Their version of God, and people create images of God to make Him resemble their own selves. That would be both inside and out which explains the light skinned and blue-eyed Jesus and a god that spanks a six month old baby for squirming when his or her diaper is being changed.”
This is spot-on.
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JA, I am “holding my tongue” -or my fingers on my keyboard, to be literal- out of deference to your hospitality, but I have to say that this subject matter compels me to want to type things at some of these people that would melt a flat screen. I think I’m showing admirable restraint, but if you find that I’m becoming offensive feel free to tell me to step away.
To clarify my point in this thread, let me again reiterate that I feel that Mr. Burleson should simply apologize and leave the matter be. The endless defensiveness by Mr. Burleson and his advocates is simply a deflection of responsibility.
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Dash, nobody said anything about disproving anything. I only said you proved my point that a person with a specific assumption is going to view everything through that filter. That’s fine, if you are comfortable with your own assumptions. I get that you hate Calvin, Calvinism, and Calvinists.
Julie Anne, I realize that Calvinism is a heated topic, but frankly, there’s nothing particularly Calvinistic about Wade’s responses to the questions he was asked. That’s why I started out above by asking “What’s the alternative?” The belief that God is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful is not unique to Calvinism — it is what Christians of all kinds of theological persuasions have taught for millennia.
As Hannah pointed out, the question in the title is a problem raised by many atheists and agnostics as an objection to Christianity in general. If someone has a problem with the idea that God permits evil and works good out of it (which the essence of Wade’s response), they have a problem with the teachings of Christianity in general, not only with Calvinism.
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Demanding an apology of someone who simply answered the questions asked of him seems unwarranted, especially when no apology was even requested by the person asking the questions. Pointing that out is not a defense of Wade, it is an appeal to common sense and civility.
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Seems to me the time would be better spent discussing the questions and answers rather than ragging on individuals due to theological disputes.
Anyone care to answer my question? What is the alternative, for a Christian? An unbeliever can say that God doesn’t exist, doesn’t know everything, doesn’t care, or is powerless — but how can Christians respond?
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“What is the alternative? That God didn’t know? That He didn’t care? That He was powerless to do anything?”
Of course God knows, of course God cares, and of course God is omnipotent. The issue here is that you are ignoring the role of evil, and the fallen nature of mankind, and the necessity of free will. To engineer an argument that God plans for the abuse of a person in meticulous detail is to ignore the existence of evil as a separate entity.
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And Tom, you come across as a tremendously uncaring, uncompassionate, and unfeeling person. Good luck with that.
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You talk of “civility,” and yet you argue against the value of an apology on behalf of what may be a mere misunderstanding, which becomes less likely the more the point is argued. I make apologies to people all the time, warranted or not, in the interests of well-being and common decency. What is wrong with you that you can’t see the value of this?
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AnotherTom,
Your comments make perfect sense to me and I do not consider myself a Calvinist, but I am a follower of Jesus. I’d like you and others to know that Dash does not represent me in terms of how I disagree with other Christians over doctrinal matters. I, and many others, are able to not attack the character of those who disagree with us, nor are we interested in broad brushing an entire group of Christians because they believe differently.
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Life is so much better when you don’t accept any of this god stuff or the men that claim to speak for him. Just sayin’.
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nmgirl: I am inclined to agree with you. If people need to find God, they should do it on their own; and they should roundly disregard his self-appointed intermediaries.
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If someone tells me that I offended them, I don’t think about asking for written proof before attempting to make things right and apologize for having hurt them even if they misunderstood what I was trying to say. There is always, “I think we have a failure to communicate, can we talk about this?” Wade was correcting the terminology that Oasis used. Speaking, writing, who cares which it was. She was obviously hurt by it.
When Wade says, “Affliction is of God”, his reasoning for saying that doesn’t make sense to me. If someone can explain that to me, that would be nice.
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Dash,
“To clarify my point in this thread, let me again reiterate that I feel that Mr. Burleson should simply apologize and leave the matter be.”
I went back and read the previous post’s comment thread. I’m confused as to the actions for which you say Mr. Burleson should apologize? Are you saying Mr. Burleson should apologize for saying “God designs sexual abuse; sexual abuse is from God” (the allegation lodged against him)?, Oasis and others have failed to produce one scintilla of evidence that Mr. Burleson has written such a thing. In fact, this post and the TWW links I’ve read actually disprove he believes what Oasis has publicly stated he believes.
Dash, would you tell someone who is accused of child abuse (but is actually innocent), “Go ahead and apologize. It will make your accuser feel better.” Of course not.
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Dash, the most hateful-heartless things I have ever been told about rape, came out of the mouths of Christians.
I am sorry:( Much Love;)
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@Southern Sunshine- I am saying that Mr. Burleson should apologize for any misunderstanding that may have occurred. That would be the compassionate thing to do. But no, he and his advocates continue to argue and bicker endlessly for the “correctness” of his teachings. You all disgust me.
@Kiefer Weinmaster- Do you really think I care about your opinion of me? Yeah, nope.
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“Of course God knows (that evil exists), of course God cares (that evil exists), and of course God is omnipotent” (but unable to do anything about the evil that God knows exists and cares about). So we’re to gather from this rather circular argument that evil is more powerful than God since, being omnipotent, God does nothing but know and care about its existence?
IMHO, Wade’s answer to Gail was the most cruel non-answer I’ve ever read. To think a god would allow a five year-old to be sexually abused while having the power to prevent such a heinous act so that good can come makes that god some kind of monster and certainly not Love. But worse yet is a god that allows a five year-old to be sexually abused so that this god can forgive (or not) the abuser and heal the survivor is worse than cruel.
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Oh, what the hell, why not.
“I do believe that God allows evil to occur (that He doesn’t cause) because He will ultimately bring about an eternal greater good.”
In this determinist mindset, the child is raped because of a decision that God made. (That makes God responsible.) God, who calls each and every shot, thinks the better thing to happen is for the child to be raped. (God thinks the child rape is the better choice.) God is the one who ensures the child is raped, because a world with no raped children is not the greater good. God is a rape apologist and finds it necessary for each raped child to be raped, instead. (God thinks the children need to be raped.) God thinks the rape, on some level, is a good idea. (This speaks the language of abusers.) God the determinist could have chosen to prevent the rape, but instead chose sin, evil and darkness, according to this belief system. God chose rape.
And there goes Jesus. The one who is supposed to love us when no one else does, the one we are supposed to be able to trust when no one else can be trusted, the one who is supposed to be safe when there is no safe. He is the one who betrayed us the most, and we are taught by determinism to have an abusive relationship with him.
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“Anyone care to answer my question? What is the alternative, for a Christian? An unbeliever can say that God doesn’t exist, doesn’t know everything, doesn’t care, or is powerless — but how can Christians respond?”
How about saying, I just don’t know, or I cannot know for certain, because God’s ways are above my pay grade. Why so many words, explanations, biblical instructions…
I will tell you the way I responded when I was instructed by my X pastor to give thanks to God for being molested, it threw me into utter despair. I know Wade didn’t ask that of Oasis, but I need to mention that for the sake of my own story & what the doctrine of determinism does to wounded hearts.
You do comprehend the agony, anguish, and hellish nightmare one travels through after growing up in a massive dysfunctional family, right?
Being a Christian doesn’t erase the emotional & mental abuse, it casts a long haunting shadow over a victims heart. I was molested 55 years ago and the evil that I experienced to this day still lingers.
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Thanks, Dash, for sharing your assessment of me. As long as we are sharing our personal perceptions, your comments on this post so far have across to me as arrogant, self-absorbed, hostile, and unloving. It appears that you are more concerned with throwing daggers at a theological foe and making personal attacks than having a grown up discussion.
It’s up to Wade to determine if he feels an apology is in order. But I see nothing wrong with him answering a person’s questions. Demanding an apology and nothing else comes across like saying “Oh, shut up! I don’t like you or your beliefs, so I don’t care about anything you have to say, or anything anyone else has to say, if it’s not simply ‘I’m sorry’.” Rather than trying to silence people by telling them how they should respond to someone’s questions, it seems to me better to let them respond to them as they see fit. Plus the whole purpose of this blog post seems to me to be asking for people’s thoughts on the points Wade made. Seems rather pointless to even have this post if a discussion of the subject matter is not appropriate.
Now that we have the personal stuff out of the way, can we stick to discussing the subject matter, instead of each other?
I don’t see how I am ignoring evil or anything else. All I’m doing is asking how a person can claim that God knows, cares, and has the power to change things, and also say that evil happens apart from his permission. Saying that evil exists and people have free will doesn’t answer the question; it merely begs it. I’m interested in any sincere response from anyone.
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A Kind Soul, sometimes things disappear from the Internet. Sometimes they disappear on purpose.
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“Anyone care to answer my question? What is the alternative, for a Christian? An unbeliever can say that God doesn’t exist, doesn’t know everything, doesn’t care, or is powerless — but how can Christians respond?”
I have challenges with the question because it frames the issue. How about we ask why God permitted little Suzy to be raped as a child but did not permit little Jenny to be raped. Did God like Jenny better so He protected her? To me, that is where such framing of the issue leads. Little Suzy is always to believe that God permitted it to be done to HER but not the others. Why?
I think the problem is how God is presented and how He operates. There is a bit of Calvinism in most of evangelical Christianity that becomes a problem. We start with an unrealistic assumption about how he operates and it takes us into these horrible applications. It is like God is playing Sophies Choice. Why can’t God be all powerful and all knowing without exercising that power? Why did He give humans a charge for what they are to do and be here if He did not expect them to carry it out?
So my question is why God permitted little Suzy to be raped but not little Jenny. If our focus is on God’s power and the alternative is God not having power, I think we have totally misunderstood God and even Jesus Christ.
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Oasis,
I can barely stand to read this post and comments. I am sooo over church drama. (#GladToBeANone/Done) My heart goes out to you. I hoped you weren’t reading all the “love” taking place here. Please, shut down the browser and go do something pleasant. You are more important than this debate.
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Well JA, if you have to put me in moderation. Never mind.
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@rebellady2550
It sounds like they are making very bad excuses for a pro-rape god. One would have to really hate rape to get it.
I was sexually abused the first ten years of my life, nothing good came out of it for me. I have always felt like god was pro-rape.
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Hey all, for some reason regulars are being put in moderation and I have no clue why. If I have not warned you about something and your post doesn’t go thru, it’s likely a Word Press issue. I’ve been at school and high school volunteer gig and so haven’t been able to check as frequently. Sorry!
PS Lydia, you are not in moderation. I just got out of choir and saw your stuck comment.
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Brenda R…here is my explanation…I call it the “keeping God good” syndrome. Keep God good no matter the cost to God’s creation cause, after all, God will get them for that (sooner or later). Here’s my take on it: if God (or any other being) knows someone is about to be harmed and is able to prevent the person from being harmed but fails to do so, isn’t good and no amount of quoting or explaining can change that.
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“your comments on this post so far have across to me as arrogant, self-absorbed, hostile, and unloving.”
Dear Tom, that is how your comments came across to me.
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Dash, thank you for your amazing support, for making me smile, again and again.
BeenThereDoneThat, I did read it all, because curiosity got the better of me. Then it seemed like a good opportunity to get a few things off of my chest. This subject tears up my heart, so very often, and sometimes I am just dying inside and want to get the hurt out. Maybe you are right, though. Thank you for caring. 🙂
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“How about saying, I just don’t know, or I cannot know for certain, because God’s ways are above my pay grade.”
I suppose anyone can say that about anything. I can’t imagine that anyone would find much comfort in the “Heck, beats me” response. But if that’s the response being sought, why bother with this discussion?
Saying that God cares, God knows, and God has the power to do something and yet he specifically chooses not to exercise that power (for whatever reason) does not sound at all like determinism to me. But regardless of what you call it, this is what almost all Christians of all denominations and theological persuasions have pretty much taught throughout history. It is not a Calvinistic teaching.
I can understand why people who don’t know God and aren’t His children would have a problem with it. I can also see why it might be difficult for His children to understand. especially when they have suffered because of the evil of others.
But, again, for a Christian, I see no real alternative but to accept by faith that God knows, cares, and has the power to do anything, but He allows evil to exist and bad things to happen to people anyway. We could argue all day about why bad things happen, the mechanics, and the semantics, but we’d get no where, as this question has been around since the beginning of time. Job and his friends struggled with it, and the only real answer they got from God was “Who are you to call my character into question?”
But we also have assurances in His Word that He has a good purpose even in our bad experiences. After all, that’s the entire point of the cross of Christ — God used the evil act of His Son’s death to work on our behalf the ultimate good of our salvation. I really don’t expect unbelievers to accept all this, but I also don’t see what else a believer could possibly conclude.
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Some of you may not like the idea that God allows evil to exist, but if the level of toxicity doesn’t decrease in some of these comments there’ll be no chance for a civil discussion because your anger and venom drives people away.
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“Thanks, Dash, for sharing your assessment of me. As long as we are sharing our personal perceptions, your comments on this post so far have across to me as arrogant, self-absorbed, hostile, and unloving. It appears that you are more concerned with throwing daggers at a theological foe and making personal attacks than having a grown up discussion.”
Right, the old “Let the grown-ups talk” stand-by, or argumentum ad verecundiam. You’re an exceptionally unpleasant person, Tom. You’re not really worth my time or my effort, but on the other hand I find you amusing. Your pomposity and self-importance are truly funny.
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Can we all try harder to keep the subject on the content of the post and not people? It’s getting too hot in here. Thanks, everyone.
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“Dash, thank you for your amazing support, for making me smile, again and again.”
My pleasure. It’s truly fascinating to me how Tom has basically stooped at this point to making a Calvinist argument for why Mr. Burleson doesn’t need to apologize. You can’t buy this kind of entertainment.
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JA, my apologies and I will remove myself from this comment section now. I have no use for pro-Calvinist arguments, and I’m not interested in entertaining them.
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So, great. God “allows” evil to happen. He even “allows” people who are purportedly called by His name and filled with His spirit to rape little kids. He ”allows” other people of God to cover it up. He “allows” His people to abuse in all types of heinous manners. (Could it beeeee SATAN?) Isn’t that why this blog exists? Most of us will die having never seen “good” come from it or any justice whatsoever. What a wonderful world.
But hey, most abuse survivors are used to the Correct Doctrine and defensiveness being thrown our way. Were used to people getting up on their hind legs or getting their knickers in a twist when we question things. (Never, ever, ever question.) Nothing new here.
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I think it’s especially important to hear from those with abusive backgrounds how some of this teaching impacts them. Your voice is important here, Dash.
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JA, while I appreciate your hospitality, I have no use for Tom and I don’t care to have a discussion with him. It’s best I step away.
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That’s fine, Dash. No prob.
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“So, great. God “allows” evil to happen. He even “allows” people who are purportedly called by His name and filled with His spirit to rape little kids. He ”allows” other people of God to cover it up. He “allows” His people to abuse in all types of heinous manners. (Could it beeeee SATAN?) Isn’t that why this blog exists? Most of us will die having never seen “good” come from it or any justice whatsoever. What a wonderful world. ”
Bingo.
Note how the entire focus is on God and making him responsible for everything or even using him as an excuse for evil because the focus is on His power. (He will bring good out of it? Often that does not happen)
Why isn’t the focus on human responsibility? Why not focus on Human ability to seek justice and protect the innocents, etc? (Because that is much harder and requires sacrifice….lots of it)
. Note how the focus is on future justice…as in waiting for God to do the right things because we cannot. For some reason.
So why isn’t the focus on human responsibility? And there is a good answer for that. It is easier to make God responsible..
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Another Tom,
I was being sarcastic to a degree with my response to your question. I deserved your response.
That said, you didn’t answer my question.
I wrote:
I will tell you the way I responded when I was instructed by my X pastor to give thanks to God for being molested, it threw me into utter despair. I know Wade didn’t ask that of Oasis, but I need to mention that for the sake of my own story & what the doctrine of determinism does to wounded hearts.
You do comprehend the agony, anguish, and hellish nightmare one travels through after growing up in a massive dysfunctional family, right?
Being a Christian doesn’t erase the emotional & mental abuse, it casts a long haunting shadow over a victims heart. I was molested 55 years ago and the evil that I experienced to this day still lingers.
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Maybe God is responsible for the fact of freedom, and human beings are responsible for their acts of freedom?
If God controls evil and purposely does not prevent kids from getting hurt in pedophile rings, then we should do the same. We are to imitate God.
Even if good did come from rape itself, which it does not, that would still be no excuse, no so-called “good reason” for it to happen. Let us do evil, that good may come? Paul rejected this idea, but silly Paul, good enough for God?
I am right there with you Gail, with your utter despair. Determinism has hurt me more than anything else in my life, even more than the abuse, which has destroyed my life, the life I could have had, the person I could have been. Being taught that God is the man behind the curtain only intensified the pain x 100,000. And even though I do not believe such intolerable things, the pain will not go away.
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gm370, I thought my response answered the gist of your comments. To be more specific, I would never tell someone to thank God for something evil someone did to them. If, in their own journey, and in their own time, they found some basis for gratitude in whatever good they may have experienced as a result of their tragedy, I would be happy for whatever brought them comfort.
I’m sure I don’t comprehend the level of pain f those who have experienced great difficulties that I have not. I desire to be compassionate and empathetic. I am sure I fail at that, especially in being too blunt with those I feel have been judgmental and harsh towards others.
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(3). I do not understand what you meant when you said ‘affliction is of the Lord’ but ‘not from the Lord. What does that even mean?
Wade’s response: “It simple means that God does not create, cause or author evil (‘from the Lord’), but God will allow and permit evil because of an ultimate greater good that is coming, including the display of His holiness and justice in the punishment of the sinner and His mercy, goodness and kindness in the redemption of the victim.”
What I am reading here is ends justify the means theology. I can’t believe in that type of God or human being.
Sounds like a recipe for upside-down cake disaster. God allows evil=ingredients. Cake=Ultimate greater good in the end. So evil begets good. Can’t God’s glory/holiness/good be displayed by…drum-roll….good/righteousness instead of evil? I think so. I teach God is honored by & loves righteousness at home. I think Satan is the one who glories in evil. Anyway, this doesn’t sound like a God worth serving if this God must have evil to display goodness. How much evil in God’s recipe is required for the ultimate good to eventually come? It sounds completely upside down & extreme & a perfect way to justify evil action – as in “Well, I’ll step up & honor God by doing evil today?!?” After all, what I’m reading here is that evil helps this God display future greater good/ holiness/ justice/ mercy/ goodness/ kindness.
I must put my God-given mind on a shelf to believe this explanation of evil. I like upside-down cake, but not upside-down holy ends justify the evil means theology. 🙂
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I get the anti-Calvinist sentiment often expressed by commenters here, and I am not seeking to defend or discuss anything about Calvinism. That debate holds no interest for me.
But concerning people’s responses to the core question of the post, I am truly baffled. I keep hearing how bad and awful and “deterministic” it is to say that God allows evil. Yet it is a common, non-Calvinist, Christian teaching, based on the attributes of God as revealed in Scripture (all knowing, all-loving, all-powerful). What alternative view is possible for those who believe in God as He is described in the Bible?
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To be sure, this holy ends justifies the evil means theology does great damage, which is why I choose to comment in the first place. I’m thinking of the nones, dones & silent ones. The greater the sin = greater glory for God belief is horrid, awful stuff. The character of God is love. God is good. And good means only good, in my book.
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Oasis,
To whatever extent I have contributed to your pain, I sincerely apologize. It is never my desire to hurt anyone with anything I write or teach. My goal is to only heal.
It’s also not my goal to enter into a theological debate with anyone. I could not care less if anyone believes as I do that God is able to work great good from evil. Though my belief that God is good and is all-powerful brings me great comfort, it that belief doesn’t bring you the same comfort, I’m uninterested in convincing you of my doctrinal position.
It seems we are all in agreement that God is not the author of evil.
I do have a question for those who frequent this forum. I read today about a youth pastor, his wife, and their six month old baby being crushed to death by falling concrete as they drove on the highway (see here: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/couple-killed-by-falling-concrete-slab-were-youth-ministers/ar-AAaY6zn).
My question is a simple one: “Was God taken by surprise at the sudden deaths of these three Christian people, not knowing that they would die today until it happened?”
(1). Their deaths seem to comprise an ‘awful tragedy,’ and might even be termed ‘an affliction’ by their family members left behind.
(2). I’m not asking if “God caused” the deaths of these people, simply because many of us would say “God didn’t push the concrete” (and by the way, that is precisely what I would say: God did not push the concrete).
(3). I’m asking you if He knew. If He didn’t, as I sense some of you might say, I would like for you to give me the reasons why you say God doesn’t know.
I will attempt to read your answers tomorrow night with the hope of being able to understand your positions better.
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I don’t believe God “allows” child rape (or any other type of abuse) any more than he “allows” a person who jumps from a tall building to hit the ground breaking every bone and internal organ in their body. He created the physical law of gravity. There are consequences if you violate it. He also gave man free will. Hence, Adam and Eve, like overgrown toddlers, decided to defy God and eat the forbidden fruit any way. We exercise our free will all the time. Some for ill purposes. Which is probably why He had to send a savior to (hopefully) change the inclinations of our free will. Doesn’t seem to work too well for some folks.
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Dash: I did not read your comment as Julie Anne did a good job explaining.
Wade is not Calvinist. I am probably more Calvinist in my beliefs than Wade is.
I do not know the answer to the questions concerning evil. I do know that God is not the perpetrator of evil. I do know God is always good. That’s about all I understand and know and sometimes I don’t even understand that fully, but I believe it nonetheless.
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A mom, I love your example. NT Wright has a similar explanation. He says we are MORE human when we love and do righteousness. We are barely human when we do evil to others. (Not that I agree with him about everything he teaches but he has some great stuff on Christian character and virtue)
Yes, the answer reflects an “ends justifies the means” as in God planning it that way. For His Glory, of course. (sigh)
I liken it to reflecting Christ out into the world. Being the humans God intended at creation. I fear a lot of people believe we cannot be those types of humans even after the resurrection. And I think it has a lot to do with how so many Christians define our ability as humans.
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Dash, I get it. You think I’m a horrible person because I disagreed with you, and thus it’s okay to treat me without dignity or respect.
I posed a question, and offered a contrary opinion to yours, and your response was to abuse me with personal attacks. Perhaps I shouldn’t have, but I responded with how your comments about me came across to me, in part to point out how irrelevant such personal remarks are to this conversation, and in part to perhaps to give you pause about your choice to attack me personally simply because I offered a contrary opinion to yours. First you tell Wade that his way of answering questions posed to him was not good enough, then you tell me that my way of communicating is not good enough for you, either. What I don’t get is why you think it’s up to you to determine how other people should communicate their thoughts.
I suspect that on other topics we would find much to agree on and that you would be a perfectly pleasant and kind individual.
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“’I am sure I don’t comprehend the level of pain of those who have experienced great difficulties that I have not. I desire to be compassionate and empathetic.”
Compassion & empathy are worth their weight in gold! That is music to my ears, don’t know if you want to know why, but I will ramble. I was scolded for not being surrendered to the sufficiency of the scriptures, because I had panic attacks and depression, when I was still wet behind my ears in Christ. Kindness & understanding go a long way in my book.
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“My question is a simple one: “Was God taken by surprise at the sudden deaths of these three Christian people, not knowing that they would die today until it happened?” ”
It is a question that frames the debate. I ask you: What difference does it make whether He knew or not? Once you go down that road, God becomes “Sophie’s choice” God. Why that particular family and not another? Why not let it happen to a rapist?
Did God know the infrastructure was rotting? Did God know the budget for fixing infrastructure was used for something else? This becomes ridiculous. Why ask unless it is to present God in a certain way?
He gave us a mandate at Creation and He sacrificed Himself for us. What is OUR responsibility as believers? As humans –here and now?
Why isn’t the focus on human responsibility? Prevention? Us doing good? Because that is considered works salvation? Because we cannot do righteousness? .
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Wade,
God knows. God is outside of time. He knows all decisions that we will make. God does not cause a person to commit crimes. They do that by listening to Satan and others listening to Satan. He knows who will accept Christ and who will reject Him. He knows the number of hairs on our heads. God is past, present and future all in one. We live in a fallen world and have free will. People choose to be evil. People choose to accept God’s gift that he generously gave in Jesus Christ the Lord. All who come to Him will be saved. They are not Elected!!
He knows those of us who were sexually assaulted throughout our lives and collects all of our tears. I am not overly thankful for the things that have been forced upon me during my life including my childhood, but I am thankful that I have been able to provide comfort to others in similar situations for God’s glory. His Spirit in me leads me to do this. God uses the broken for His glory. In this instance evil did produce good. I have triggering events from time to time of my own, but Satan does not have me in his grasp.
Our days are all numbered. The family who died in this accident, my 9 month old grandson who died from SIDS, my grandmother who I never met and was in God’s presence when my mother was 7 years old, my friend who will be going home soon to be with the Savior because of cancer.. God knows all things.
You said something that is quite troubling. You said that you want to heal and then right after said you could not care less if anyone believes as you do that God is able to work great good from evil. I find that very confusing for someone in your position. The things that you have said to Oasis don’t seem very healing oriented. They seem more “the burden of proof” oriented. I personally don’t know a lot about you, but I do wonder about someone who handles an obviously hurting person the way you have. I do wonder greatly about any pastor who doesn’t care what the sheep believe.
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A Mom…I have really missed you and have been wondering about you for a while. Thank you for adding your sensible, healthy, refreshing and uplifting comments. 🙂
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Well, I for one feel better about all this when I think of the fact that the unrepentant molester will be thrown into the furnace by the same Jesus who will be saving the victims.
Plus he or she might get a little hell on earth(prison) if the churches and schools and parents all wise up to the fact that there are molesters out there and we must be vigilant, report them and cooperate with investigations and prosecutions.
As far as the whole problem of evil, my view is that man is responsible for the evil, while God is responsible for the good.
I do think Calvinists have a tendency to try to resolve matters that scripture does not give us answers to. But I also think that Baptists and Holiness folks can flog a person as much as a Calvinist if they are so inclined.
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Brenda,
It’s difficult to communicate well via blogs. It is not my favorite medium. When I write “I could not care less if anyone believes as you do that God is able to work great good from evil,” I am not saying I don’t care for people. I am uninterested in being a hammer of truth to try to get people to believe as I.
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“Was God taken by surprise at the sudden deaths of these three Christian people, not knowing that they would die today until it happened?”
Does it really matter? Would whether or not God was surprised have changed the outcome?
The fact is, a concrete slab weighing thousands of pounds falling on the cab of a pick up truck will generally do serious/fatal damage to the occupants of the pick up truck. The more important fact is that this was a tragic accident and it doesn’t matter if the occupants of the pick up truck were Christian people or rapists. My heart goes out to the people they left behind, their family and friends who must now deal with the loss of their loved ones. I’m sure that for those dealing with this tragedy, whether God was surprised or not is the last thing on their minds and hearts.
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“It is a question that frames the debate.”
Lydia, dear friend, the debate was already framed in these terms by the questions originally asked.
Whenever a Christian claims that God is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful, the unbelieving skeptic inevitably responds by asking how such a God can even permit evil to exist. Their claim is either He didn’t know, or He didn’t care, or there was nothing He could do about it. They cannot reconcile in their minds how a loving God who knows what is going on and has the power to do anything would not do something to stop evil. Responding to them with “The problem is how you asked the question” will not make the dilemma seem any less real to them. They would likely consider such a response insincere, disingenuous, and dismissive of their genuine concerns.
The exact wording used by a Christian to respond may vary depending on a person’s theological presuppositions and framework, but any response that insists that God has all of the qualities attributed to him in Scripture is going to seem unsatisfactory to someone who does not want to know and trust Him.
So the question is already out there, and it is not caused by a “deterministic” view of God. A non-Calvinistic response is going to be just as unsatisfying to someone who doesn’t accept the Bible’s teachings that God is who He says He is, that He is not responsible for evil, but that evil exists nonetheless. Ultimately the response of any Bible believing Christian is the same — God is good and loving, He knows everything, He is all powerful, He is not responsible for the evil that anyone does, and, at some point or another, in some way or another, He allowed evil to exist (otherwise, if He didn’t allow it, He wasn’t powerful enough to stop it).
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“Lydia, dear friend, the debate was already framed in these terms by the questions originally asked. ”
I know. I am trying desperately to reframe it. :o)
I think we are asking the wrong questions and it takes us down all sorts of roads that are impassable. Perhaps God is pointing His finger at us while we point ours at Him? At least I get the sense that Jesus Christ was making it clear we have ability and responsibility by His life and words while here.
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Here’s my perspective. For what its worth i come from a background of sexual and spiritual abuse. I think that his perspective is absolutely a biblical perspective. I think what he’s espousing is exactly what the bible teaches. It was a couple of years ago that I went from fundamentalism to being agnostic and it was primarily due to this issue. Let me explain.
I was molested from the time i was 3. Some people knew something was wrong, but no one but my dad stepped in. No one believed him. I went through hell and now suffer from severe PTSD, bipolar disorder and anxiety. Now, if you believe the bible, you know that god created everything and is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. So according to the bible, God was there and watched me get molested by my stepfather. God knew in advance the chaos and the life i would live. He knew of the suicidal thoughts, the psych ward stays, the difficulty maintaining marital relations. etc. That is simply NOT OK. If I behaved that way toward one of my children i’d be prosecuted for neglect- and rightly so! Shouldn’t god be a better parent than ME?! Because i’d not dream of allowing my child to be hurt. The idea of a loving god who would allow atrocities, one who, according to the old testament ordered genocide to a number of people groups without batting an eye, that kind of god is not one that i’d be interested in worshipping. Thankfully for everyone, (i believe) that this horrific god is one of fiction, much like the ancient greek and roman gods of ancient times. Its sad that people would create a god that was so cruel in the first place, but i for one am done basing my life off it.
It makes me SO MAD to think of the time i’ve wasted believing that I was simply collateral damage. I feel duped and suckered to think that once i thought I was “nothing without Jesus” All my good deeds were “filthy rags” before a holy god. and that church was the place where it was “All about Jesus” not all about padding pockets and building million dollar homes and luxury galore for the lucky guy who figured how to REALLY make some money.
I think its important that people KNOW that stuff like this IS what the bible teaches. You can only water its teaching down so much before it loses its framework. This kind of thinking is exactly what the bible teaches and its exactly why i’m no longer a christian.
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Whether or not God knows in advance natural disasters whether or not He knows in advance evil acts committed by men (and men are responsible for their own acts) is extremely important. If God is not sovereign, we have no way of knowing our salvation is secure. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t because God wouldn’t be in control. I have gone through enough pain the last two and a half years that I would be in despair if I didn’t not know my Savior loves me, gave his life for me and intercedes for me daily at the right hand of God. Injustice has been with us since Cain killed his own brother, Abel. I struggle with thinking that no one else has had pain like I have. Then I come here and read of horrible afflictions people have suffered. Somehow in my own little sphere I think I have it really bad. It turns out I’ve had ordinary, run of the mill life problems. I think that God owes me. As it turns out the crime of eternity was already inflicted on Christ at Calvary. Please, please, please, let us all fling ourselves at Christ’s feet and ask for Him to heal us from our hurts. It will take time. It will likely not be until we are with Him in heaven until our own wounds are forgotten. But if we always look at how men have hurt us, we will not see how Christ’s wounds are healing us.
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Lydia,
You’re doing a fine job at redefining and re-framing this discussion. And I agree totally with you. Why are we pointing our fingers at God when its us causing the problem? Where is our personal responsibility in all of this? Where is MY personal responsibility in this? What have I done today to make this a better, safer, saner world for all its inhabitants? Have I exhibited love or hate today?
When that concrete slab fell, did I show love and comfort to those families who lost three loved ones or did I waste my time wondering why God allowed it happen?
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“If God is not sovereign, we have no way of knowing our salvation is secure. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t because God wouldn’t be in control.”
But isn’t it really love that convinces us of our salvation as true, real and secure? Power can be tyrannical, too. The focus is God’s “rescue” out of love for His creation. A loving God who wept over Jerusalem.
“As it turns out the crime of eternity was already inflicted on Christ at Calvary”
It was not a crime. it was a sacrifice. God sacrificed Himself. That is love. That is His power.
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I am sad to hear of the death of this family. Life is precious.
Wade wrote, “My question is a simple one: “Was God taken by surprise at the sudden deaths of these three Christian people, not knowing that they would die today until it happened?” ”
Sometime people feel safer believing & being told that God predestines or foreknows their future… AND then that can naturally lead to the “it’s meant to be” conclusion that certain evil means are justified due to the glorious end.
For me, I think the question is why is there evil? I don’t agree with ends justify the means as it doesn’t explain God as loving, kind, good.
I believe the answers to the evil question lies in the value of life & freedom & resulting consequences of freedom. Oasis also answers this in her 4/15/15 2:40PM comment.
Thinking on it a bit more, my big questions are who is God, why did God create us, & why is there evil? And what is love?
I think God is good/righteous/holy. God is love. I think God created us for relationship & happiness (just as parents find joy in their children). But we are not controlled by God. If I want a relationship or to love someone, I don’t buy a mug, a book or bobblehead. I make friends, get married or have kids. All may chose not to love me back. I’m not irresistible. 😉 Humans are free to love or not, listen or not, do good or not. I think evil & wrong action separates us from God & other humans & harms us in countless other ways not always immediately obvious. For instance, walking off a cliff leads to a quick death. Smoking, a slow death. Same with wrong action – some are more evil than others. I do not believe people who commit evil know true happiness, relationship, or God. They do not know love. Christians should help others understand God, love, choice, consequences, relationship. The teachings of Jesus are sadly absent in most discussions & churches.
The God who created freewill vs. the God who’s in control: America allows freedom, moreover the founding fathers fostered freedom & purposely set up our gov’t that way. Does that mean the founding fathers allow/permit murder, theft, & all manner of evil? No, there are consequences. It is up to it’s free citizens to champion justice. The heavy responsibility that comes with freedom lies with the citizens, not the founding fathers. I believe God allows/permits freedom. There are consequences here & after for evil. It’s also up to us to protect. We are responsible for our actions, not God. The gov’t the founding fathers envisioned & set up looks more like relationship than rule. It is closer to God’s design, IMO.
As to death, sometimes it’s due to a mistake, sometimes calculated risk (like getting into a car or crossing the street), sometimes evil, sometimes natural causes or old age. Life is precious & it is right to love & value our lives. We should live to make it great & abundant.
So then, evil is put into proper perspective. Evil must be stopped. A problem I see in Christianity is all negative is lumped into the evil category so that true evil is watered down & marginalized. All have a responsibility to stop evil. If we have freedom, then we can’t put the responsibility on God. We care for & help one another by God’s design.
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“You’re doing a fine job at redefining and re-framing this discussion. And I agree totally with you. Why are we pointing our fingers at God when its us causing the problem? Where is our personal responsibility in all of this? Where is MY personal responsibility in this? What have I done today to make this a better, safer, saner world for all its inhabitants? Have I exhibited love or hate today? ”
Another Pelagius heretic! I am not alone in this club. :o) (Just kidding. I am called a Pelagian all the time now because I believe in human responsibility. Pelagius was condemned as a heretic by guys like Augustine)
I think about this issue all the time because I think it really defines Christianity. let us ask ourselves daily what we are doing in our little corners of the world. Because it is doubtful you will hear much about it at church anymore in a way to spur people on. I think of all the non believers who might have invented buildings that withstand earthquakes or invented water cleaning systems. Or those who invented medicines to end plagues.
The other day I was getting gas downtown. At the gas station was a man with no legs parked in his wheelchair in the parking lot. People were walking past him in and out, me included. As I was pumping, I saw one man go up to him and give him some bills. the man thanked him and the giver said, it is not me, it is Jesus giving it to you and walked away. That just floored me. So simple. An encouragement and some help at the same time. One little corner of the world. I will never forget that simple act. It shamed me. Isn’t that really evangelism?
As believers why aren’t we encouraging our kids to find cures for cancer, offer drink for the thirsty, invent things that improve lives and so on. We should be known for this sort of thing. Not ruminating on works as filthy rags (which is totally taken out of context to the situation from where it is quoted) or what sinners we are and cannot help it. Or how powerful God is. I think He wants us to show His power by our love and justice. But that can be tricky. We have to name evil and fight it, too. Satan would be of little use without people to do his bidding. Can we govern ourselves? For thousand of years, most Christian leaders said no. The people must be led and forced to worship God in the way they said was correct. But we changed that paradigm that was not of Christ. We seem to be going back in that direction of needing a human to explain God to us instead of knowing Him personally.
What bothers me, too, is using scripture as if it is the 4th person of the Trinity. So much damage done to people. And for what? To glorify God as powerful? I think it does the opposite. It makes Him look insecure and petty.
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“But worse yet is a god that allows a five year-old to be sexually abused so that this god can forgive (or not) the abuser and heal the survivor is worse than cruel.”
Could not agree with you more, rebellady! The child is needlessly and cruelly violated, used…sacrificed. Why? Because JESUS made a decision for the child to be raped. Well, this so-called Jesus, loved by so many self-professing Christians, is nothing but a disgusting criminal, a supporter and enabler of child rape.
There. Is. NO. Excuse. For. Rape. PERIOD. I thought decent human beings understood this simple concept?
“Let the children come to me, and do not stop them,” says the determining god, “for I have decided that some of them need to be raped.” And then he handed them over to their tormentors.
Those who promote this determining god make me physically sick, on a regular basis. Well, you who worship him can have your pro-rape Jesus. Remember to imitate your Jesus. And be sure to let every unrepentant rapist hear the good news: He/she was carrying out the decision of Jesus the entire time! Celebrate, all of you rapists out there! You finally understand that if you decide to rape the baby tonight, and God does not magically stop you…then it must be meant to be! Raping babies is what God wants! God ensures they are raped, to teach them lessons! So, just keep going and rape away!
How many are you going to turn away from Jesus? How many are you going to drive to suicide?
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Ladybug,
I wish you healing! I read where you have been & where you are now, no judgement from me, only thoughts of understanding. My best to you, I will pray for you tonight while you are fresh on my mind. I went awol from Jesus for a several years. Much love & peace to your soul.
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Yikes! No matter how nice & kind & loving we are, if we teach & tell others God allows evil for good endings, we are hurting others with our words. Make no mistake, there are listeners who hear this and do evil for good. They believe & live out this teaching. There are listeners who do & will carry out evil for good ends plan. Yikes! 😦
God allows freedom. With freedom comes responsibility & consequences. We are responsible for our actions, good & bad. Evil has no place here. “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” is our God-given plan spoken by Jesus. Christ-followers work to end evil.
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“A problem I see in Christianity is all negative is lumped into the evil category so that true evil is watered down & marginalized. ”
yes! And one way this is done is by sin leveling. As in “we are all sinners”. This is the excuse used in situation after situation to keep from dealing with situations and maturing as believers.
In another twist, SGM used this one with the molester and victim in the same room. “You are both sinners” they were told by the pastor. You are both guilty. Therefore the real evil is watered down.
Just another way proof texting scripture causes real evil to get a pass
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AnotherTom said, “Ultimately the response of any Bible believing Christian is the same — God is good and loving, He knows everything, He is all powerful, He is not responsible for the evil that anyone does, and, at some point or another, in some way or another, He allowed evil to exist (otherwise, if He didn’t allow it, He wasn’t powerful enough to stop it).”
I’m sure you’re aware there are things God can’t and/or won’t do. There are limits.
Also, there are many places in the Bible where God explains God isn’t getting what God wants. Time & again, God despairs, is ignored, pleads, begs, is long-suffering, etc. God even admits to changing plans when people change (How can that be when God knows everything?). We’ve been taught a “manly” gospel but that’s not an entirely accurate description. Maybe some aren’t interested in worshiping a God who may appear weak in some eyes? Maybe a “manly” gospel feels more safe/ comforting? If so, why?
America has been an interesting experiment of power & freedom residing with the people. Seems that’s what made America great. God gave us freedom, too. Maybe God is wiser than we think. Maybe the founding fathers took their cues from God? Maybe women & children should be treated this way, too? 🙂
A powerful God? Hmmm. Can God still be God if God gives power to choose (freedom & the responsibility that comes with freedom) to his creation? I think so. I think the Bible is a love story of God’s love for us, not a power story of God’s power over us.
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As long as I can remember I have wrestled with why evil is in the world. A few years ago I was talking to a friend about a horrible rape that had happened to a little girl and she asked me, “Why does God allow this to happen?” My only answer I could give her was, “I don’t know.” And, I think that is the answer that I finally have to settle on. I don’t know or understand why evil things happen to people, except that I do know that people are responsible for the evil they do.
In the years that I have spent dealing with children who have been abused, or talking with women in abusive relationships, or with women who are dealing with addiction and teen pregnancy, I could never have seen myself telling them that God allowed that evil to happen to them for something good to happen in their life. Honestly, even if the victim is a believer, I don’t think that does any good in helping them on the road to healing and recovery.
We live in a broken world. Just like we read in Ecclesiastes, there is a time for everything in this world and nothing is new under the sun. Joy and sorrow, war and peace, tearing down and mending, speaking up and being silent, love and hate. Personally, instead of trying to hammer down a theology for why evil happens, I would much rather say, “I don’t know” to someone. And then I would let them know that I am there to listen, offer consolation, and rejoice when healing is taking place. That is how I read Jesus interacting with the hurt and the lost.
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Kathi,
That was just so beautiful! Thank you so much! That was my first thought when I read Wade’s response to Gail…why didn’t he just say, “I don’t know.” In reality, that’s closer to the truth than anything he did choose to say.
Hurting people don’t need sermons. They need someone to listen and offer them a shoulder. They need to explore their anger and feel its full force with a safe person who won’t judge them or offer them platitudes about why this thing happened to them.
Personally, I believe that saying, “I don’t know,” is one of the most freeing and honest things a person can say but, hey, “I simply don’t know…”
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Wade,
Thank you for responding. There are a lot of things that I had been taught growing up in a Missionary Baptist Church that I thought were truths. Over the past several years I found out, that many things were not Biblical whatsoever. We don’t any of us have it completely right. Any one who thinks they do better come down off their lofty place and realize they are not God.
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Evil is in the world. When someone is in the middle of any type of trauma, most likely they need fellow believers to come along side of him/her and share in the burden. At times they may ask, “why my child? ” or “why cancer?”
There is no answer that will magically make the pain vanish. God shows his love and presence in the day by day and hour by hour service offered by their “brothers” and “sisters”. We are God’s hand, feet and ears. We are His arms, willing to embrace the bodies of the sick, the weak, the angry ,the lonely, the desperate and dying.
Most of us in pain are too busy surviving to attempt to philosophize over the role of God in our suffering. During this time, what we require from God is hope. Hope that we will survive and hope that some day (maybe in the afterlife) we can understand. Until we are face to face with our Lord, there is much we don’t understand. Trying to use scripture to rationalize sin in this world will always fall short. Our job as Believers is to be available. Amen
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Kay,
Amen, to every word you said. I love your heart. I know others go through as bad or worse than I do, but this life is short in comparison to eternity. I want to live that eternity with the One True God, my Lord Jesus Christ. I do not want to be cut off from Him for Eternity.
I have a praise to God. Tonight I found out that my sister and one of her kids and their families have been seeking out the Word and stopped drinking and drugs. I am so thankful.
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That’s wonderful news Brenda! That’s a hard road to recovery. I wish them all the best and hope you’re able to be a good source of encouragement to them.
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A Mom,
Amen to every word of your comment at 8:25.
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The only problem (for me) with “I don’t know” is when “I don’t know” really means something like, “I don’t know, maybe God thinks some toddlers should be tortured. Maybe he decided that for me. Or you know, maybe he didn’t. I don’t know, whatever.” What kind of sick, twisted “relationship” is this?
Does God really want to remain “The Unknown God” to the world, or has he revealed himself? Revealed his character? His character, the same character that should be mirrored in us, more and more, as we grow?
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A Mom,
A powerful God? Hmmm. Can God still be God if God gives power to choose (freedom & the responsibility that comes with freedom) to his creation? I think so. I think the Bible is a love story of God’s love for us, not a power story of God’s power over us.
Another Amen. Sister I like what you’re preaching.
God/Jesus are not responsible for the things that have been done to us. A good father or mother would never want us to fall, but sometimes we do. Sometimes evil people do things to us, but that does not make the good parent responsible for it. God is still good in all things and weeps when we are harmed and collects our tears. He is and was the only one that could heal my broken heart, but I had to let him in.
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Oasis – For me, “I don’t know” is in response to my heart hurting over a horrible situation and I really can’t make sense or reason for it. But, I do understand how, “I don’t know” can be used in a callous way.
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“During this time, what we require from God is hope. Hope that we will survive and hope that some day (maybe in the afterlife) we can understand. Until we are face to face with our Lord, there is much we don’t understand. Trying to use scripture to rationalize sin in this world will always fall short. Our job as Believers is to be available. Amen”
Ann, Your entire comment was beautiful. Yes, Hope! Have you seen this series? I think you will find it very edifying about hope here and now. (There are 6 of these short vignettes that should pop up on youtube) They are worth the time.
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Kathi,
I am really in the Amen corner tonight. I agree so much with what you said. There is much mystery that cannot be explained. I had to learn to trust Him. The Great I AM. He just simple is and there is no explaining why bad things happen. They just do.
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I’ve seen enough of Wade B’s writing on other blogs to say he seems like he is a genuinely nice person who really does care about folks, but I think he is a Calvinist.
I don’t care for Calvinism. The god of Calvinism reminds me too much of Allah (of Islam).
Dash was saying Calvinists are too preoccupied with their own reputations, and while I think a lot of them can be condescending and arrogant, I’d say the ones I’ve seen are far too preoccupied with the topics of God’s sovereignty and glory.
IMO, some Christians err on God’s character and morality by either going too far in one direction or another, and it’s the same with Calvinism. You have some Christians who tend to be very conservative, who portray God as being very unloving, harsh, and judgmental. Christians who are more progressive, though, tend to sell the loving, forgiving aspects of God’s character. Both these positions can result in all sorts of problems.
With Calvinists, I think they err in focusing too much on God’s sovereignty and glory, at expense of his other qualities and interests. I don’t think God is nearly as obsessed with his glory as Calvinists seem to think he is, and I don’t think that God being sovereign means he oversees every single choice or action that humans do, whether good or bad.
(You have to qualify your comments, because words don’t mean the same thing to Calvinists as they do to people who are not Calvinist. They will agree with you that humanity is free to do evil, but they do not believe humanity is free to do good, because fallen mankind can never do good, supposedly. They take one or two Bible verses and run nuts with them, take them too far.)
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