Pulpit and Pen blog disses on Evangelical leaders who claim 21 Egyptian martyrs were “true” Christians.
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In the face of unthinkable tragedy – the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, a contributor at Pulpit and Pen blog has gotten on his bully pulpit to criticize those who call these 21 Egyptian martyrs “Christians.”
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From Pulpit and Pen blog by anonymous author. Could it be J.D. Hall?
Southern Baptist and evangelical leaders were stumbling over themselves yesterday in a race to demonstrate who was the most sympathetic to our fellow Christians and these brave martyrs for the faith.
https://twitter.com/edstetzer/status/567171587326369795
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If you read the Pulpit and Pen article, the author does discuss the tragedy, but the main message is this: People, you can’t call them Christians when they are NOT Christians.
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Interestingly, today, R. C. Sproul, Jr. (who is admired by many of the Pulpiteers) posted a tweet:
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and a blog post today and had this to say in his article:
While Christians can mourn over the persecution of believers, they ought never be surprised or ashamed.
And he continues:
And as we are recording today, much on everyone’s mind is the video that has been passed around of multiple beheadings committed by ISIS against those in Egypt who go by the name of Coptic Christians.
I will be watching Twitter to see if Pulpiteers feel the need to correct their friend, RC 2.
The most disgusting thing to me is these are the same folks who are friends with Tony Miano, who some claim was persecuted when he was arrested in Scotland for using homophobic language and had to spend the night in jail. If you remember, Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland after hearing that his open air preacher buddy had been arrested twice within 2 weeks, also for using homophobic language. It was after those two arrests that Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland:
https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/statuses/380386063279087616
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Miano knew the climate of the country and decided he needed to go to Scotland and made the choice to discuss the gay lifestyle in his Gospel presentation (because doesn’t everyone need to include that as part of their Gospel presentation?) and got arrested for using homophobic language. This “persecution” I believe was a planned event. After his release, he spent hours and hours on social media talking about his persecution in Scotland. It was easy to watch how he spent his time on his social media trail from afar (Twitter, YouTube, articles, comments on media articles, interviews). Tony brought attention to self and called it persecution. Why did he not use his time after the arrest to busy himself with Gospel work and postpone the media interviews? Hmm
So, Tony Miano gets the pass among the Pulpiteers because his Gospel presentation matches their idea of a true Gospel presentation. His persecution is bona fide because he passed the Pulpit & Pen test: first being a “true” Christian, secondly, presenting a “true” Gospel presentation when he was arrested = “true” persecution.
Award goes to Tony for having the full-meal deal: he passes as a Christian and he was persecuted doing righteous works . . . . . . . and everyone said,”wowowowowowow.”
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But those poor Coptic Christians. Nope, Pulpit and Pen is sad about their fate (and they are really trying hard to keep things kosher with their words under the sad circumstances), but you see, they didn’t pass the Pulpit & Pen muster. Because they were born into their religion and because Pulpit and Pen is able to judge the hearts of men all the way from Montana and wherever else the Pulpiteers live, those 21 Egyptian “Christians” died a sad death and will likely end up in hell. While they died a horrible death, they did not die the same kind of persecuted-for-righteousness-sake death, because they were not true Christians. In the blog post you can sense the sad violin music playing in the words because the Egyptian’s death likely means they all went to hell, so no trophy for them. (According to P&P logic, of course.)
So, that is how P&P is spending their time lately – going after Evangelical church leaders who are tweeting about the atrocities of the beheadings – and Pulpit and Pen feels it is their responsibility to let all the church leaders in America know this really wasn’t that kind of persecution – you know the kind that earned Tony Miano a symbolic golden trophy among his peers.
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Related links:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
BTDT,
I suggest there is no need for you to defend yourself. It appears that Dustin is engaged in an essentially dishonest effort to get us to apply the conclusions that would be derived from some extreme, fictitious and irrelevant example to get us to agree with some false and illegitimate position of his.
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” I just don’t think bloggers from The Pulpit and the Pen have achieved that level of perfection yet”
Cyberbully and cyberstalk fifteen year old boy, boy shortly after kills himself.
Considering what they did to poor little Braxton Caner they should keep quite in shame and guilt.
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Kyrie eleison. They died confessing Christ.
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Dustin,
I might be wrong, but from what I can tell of Paul’s letters, the men pushing circumcision were the ones being divisive. It was their goal to disrupt the church. Paul was trying to minimize the damage by isolating them.
Speaking for myself: If Paul had done to anyone what this one Pulpiteer did — hearing about people who were killed for their trust in Jesus, and questioning their salvation simply because they don’t have a Perfectly Parsed Theology — then I hope I’d have the courage to confront Paul, the way that Julie Anne and others are confronting P&P.
No one at Pulpit and Pen, or elsewhere, has the right to determine anyone’s salvation.
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Mr. Germain: Is your objection to Coptic beliefs based on soteriology? If so, then you have eliminated all synergists, from the Faith.
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I added a few related articles at the bottom of the post.
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Yea, how nice of you to pray for your brother, Tony and P&P. The other typical response (if you’re not a doctrinal friend) is repent or check your salvation. These guys are alike. It makes me sick.
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Do these Spiritual Giants with their Perfectly-Parsed Theology actually expect to be sitting on Christ’s right hand at J-Day, whispering in His ear “Him Sheep… Him Goat… Him Goat… Him Goat… Him Goat…”? I mean, what would God ever do without The Pulpiteers to tell Him who’s Saved and who’s not?
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@GaryW:
That’s what “Taking Back America and Restoring it to a CHRISTIAN Nation” is for.
The Quiverfull breeding programs and 200-year plans including “estates and house-servants”. God Hath Said.
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Commentors –
Are the Coptics “false brothers who were secretly brought in” as Paul claimed? Or, are they sincere believers attempting to walk out their salvation? You and we may disagree with their walking out their salvation, but do we call them “false brothers who were secretly brought in?”
Mind you, in Galations we are speaking of Gentile believers who were being led astray by Jews, not believing Jews being led astray by other Jews.
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I see that Tony Miano is still kissing up to church leaders. I gather that no one has agreed to ordain him yet.
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Right Marsha, and he’s not speaking at the Refo 2015 Conference either with JD and Phil Johnson and Todd Friel and the Pirate Guy…I mean, it’s not like Miano doesn’t have the time or anything. Wonder why they didn’t ask him?
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I mean…Miano ISSSSSSSSSSSSS one of “THE #15.”
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BTDT –
Dustin did do a switch from an eating issue to a circumsision issue which is wrong to do. And, again, I will say that the eating issues that Paul is discussing aren’t simply about the rules regarding what we can and cannot eat, but mainly about HOW we treat those who eat differently (as is the issue we see here). I know someone who reads here strongly disagrees with me, but that’s okay. The issue has come up here and it is definitely about “how we treat” those who have different convictions about food.
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Dustin: Are people who eat blood sausage outside the fold?
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Great article, Julie Anne.
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These conversations remind me of the high school kids who come over and hang out and talk about other kids at school.
I’m Tony, “**GASP** OMG! Can you believe he favorited that tweet?! What was he thinking?! Dude, you are literally not thinking right.”
I’m P&P – “Oh Tony, I feel so bad for him. I think he might be smoking something ’cause his head’s not right. Let’s pray for him….and keep talking about him. And check our Twitter to see how many followers and favorites we have.”
Seriously, can these guy, like, grow up or something?
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@ Keith:
Speaking from the bleachers, I’ll be interested to see the reply to this, because I’ve always wondered how eating blood (rare steak, black pudding, duck blood soup, etc.) became so widely acceptable in Europe despite that verse in Acts. Don’t know much about the history of blood as a food, except that it was forbidden in the OT and is consumed in non-European cultures too.
I certainly don’t see it as a salvation issue. Doesn’t affect me personally one way or the other because I’m pretty grossed out by the idea anyway. I knew it for sure it must be bad when I was specifically warned by my British friend NOT to try black pudding while I was in England. 😉
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Keith, I’m in the area of Texas that is next to SW Louisiana, and we eat boudin….who knows what’s in it….😜
So, I may be condemned on that one fact alone…
Seriously, I grew up SBC, am still SBC until my mother passes….however she says the following thing…” My denomination left me, I didn’t leave it….”
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.”however she says the following thing…” My denomination left me, I didn’t leave it….”
Wow. that is exactly what my late mother used to say!
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I re-read the passages in Phillipians and Galatians cited by Dustin and my take is different. Paul was angry because the Galatians had been lied to. They had been told that Paul himself was prescribing circumcision and that Titus, a Greek Gentile and Christian leader, had undergone circumcision. This was not true; it was deliberate deception. He wanted the Galatians to understand that they were saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by adopting a Jewish identity as the deceivers were trying to convince people. All who are in Christ are children of Abraham, whether circumcised or not, whether they were born a Jew or a Gentile, and all are heirs to God’s promises. Conversion to Judaism is not needed. He had already taught this to the Galatians and he was exasperated with them for listening to those who wanted to put them under the law instead of being free in Christ. His focus in Galatians 3 is on the Galatians themselves and not the deceivers. In Phillipians he does condemn those requiring circumcision, but not because circumcision is wrong as a practice, Paul points out that he himself is circumcised (and I would add that it has health benefits according to the American Academy of Pediatrics). He is condemning people who are deceiving new Christians into believing that this old sign of a covenant with God is still needed when that is not true. All followers of Jesus Christ are part of the covenant.
As Christians we all make decisions about how we should behave. We try to avoid sin, not because we are under the law, not to achieve salvation, but because sin harms us and harms others and to the extent we can avoid it we will have better lives and be better examples to others. It is the same with good works which Jesus exhorted us to do; again we do not help others to earn salvation but because it is right; it is a good way to live.
If another Christian chooses circumcision for their sons for health reasons or even because Jesus was circumcised, it makes no difference as long as they have put their faith in Christ.
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Keith,
Forgive me in 50 words or less could you explain what soteriology and synergists is?
I give Dustin some credit for exposing his opinions.
I think you should know, but it is in my opinion that he feels anybody outside the Calvinist Reformed School are heretics.
Furthermore, when I questioned the timing of certain postings last June on Ronnie Floyd he didn’t want to admit the reasoning and timing of that posting or the relentless and sinful attacks on Ergun Caner.
P & P Methodologies and much of their belief system are similar to Westboro which I haven’t seen them deny.
i also haven’t seen them rebuke Westboro’s abusive Methodolody if they have certainly not in the same magnitude toward Dr. Caner.
Keith Blankenship
FEBRUARY 18, 2015 @ 8:00 AM
Mr. Germain: Is your objection to Coptic beliefs based on soteriology? If so, then you have eliminated all synergists, from the Faith.
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Hester and KD: I have had discussions with Reformed folks who believe this to be a sin. I have not had boudin, but I know they eat bloedworst, like Blutwurst in Holland.
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Mark: Soteriology is how one is saved, i.e. monergist, God’s work alone. A synergist believes in infused Grace, or Grace plus decision. That is the best short explanation I can give.
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Keith,
Thanks,,,good question not sure how Dustin can answer that question.
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This type of stuff is par for the course with reformed Baptists. If you have the stomach for it head over to forums.carm.org to see what they think of other Christians.
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Tony Miano has connections with CARM.
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The blood sausage question may seem odd, but Mr. Germain wrote regarding the distinction of foods, etc. I mention it because it is eaten in the Netherlands, just like in Germany. The Netherlands has a substantial Reformed population.
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Re: dustin germain (@paperhymn) FEBRUARY 17, 2015 @ 6:41 PM
Such a group is teaching a false gospel, but I’m not sure that ostracizing them altogether is the way to go.
I don’t think it would be wise to give such a group a position to spread their false doctrine in a church and lead others astray, into thinking that one must avoid ham sandwiches to be saved.
Paul ripped the head off Peter (a.k.a. Cephas) for doing something similar.
Peter was associating with a group that taught salvation meant all male, Gentile believers had to be circumcised.
Paul thoroughly chewed Peter out for that, saying being circumcised was NOT a requirement to be saved.
See _Galatians 2:11-21_
My point above is more like, to the members of ISIS, any profession of faith in Christ is all that makes a person a Christian.
ISIS members do not care if the believer’s theology is that salvation is by faith alone or faith- plus- something- else.
I don’t think ISIS is going to stop and parse theology and ask if you are a Calvinist type of Christian, if you are a faith-aloner, or works-based salvation type of Christian, before they decapitate you.
I think a case can be made for your side, because Paul does warn about having the wrong Gospel or a false version of Jesus.
Such as:
Galatians 1:7-9
There are cults out there that get the “Christian” label, such as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they are no such thing.
One of those cults teaches that Jesus was a created a being and that Lucifer was his brother (the Bible does not teach either concept).
JWs teach that to have salvation, you must merit it, by doing things like handing out copies of their “Watch tower” publication door to door, etc.
I’m not sure how God views all this. Maybe God makes exceptions and considers the intent of the human heart.
It seems to me that the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone, but suppose you have a person who buys into his denomination’s teaching that salvation is faith- PLUS- whatever.
Maybe God thinks, “Well, this person is sadly misled about the “Plus whatever” part of his theology, but, he has the first part right (ie, faith in my Son), so I’ll consider this person saved.”
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Brenda said
The apostle Peter had joined the Judaizers. Most everyone regards Peter as having been a true believer.
Verse 13 states (Galatians 2 ),
So other Jewish believers in Jesus also joined in with the false teaching.
The text says back in verse 12,
“For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles.”
I take it that the James there was the brother of Jesus, who became a believer? If so, the text seems to indicate that the “certain men” mentioned were true believers, but ones who had incorrect views about the Gospel. And Paul was seeking to correct their incorrect understanding.
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BTDT said,
I think Dustin has been misunderstood on this point.
He was not saying that someone who feels guilty for eating a pork chop and thus refrains from eating pork chops is not saved. Whether to eat pork chops of not would fall in line with Romans 14.
You know how CBMW and other gender complementarian groups insist that believing in their particular view about women is a first tier, salvation issue?
That if you don’t agree with CBMW that all women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen, and that only men can lead in churches, you are un-saved?
It’s the same with Dustin’s fictional example.
You have a group teaching that refraining from pork chops is necessary for salvation.
Such a Gospel is a false Gospel, and Paul does warn believers about following a false Christ / false Gospel, please see Galatians 1:7-9.
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Gary W said,
I have agreed with you in the past on other threads, but I can’t quite agree with your description of Dustin’s points or behavior so far on this particular thread.
Overall, from what I have seen in the last year or so, the Pulpit and Pen organization do come across as very judgmental, harsh people, and as cyber bullies.
Dustin’s example was not far-fetched; it parallels Paul’s comments about Peter and the Judaizers, who taught that Gentiles must receive circumcision to be good Christians or to be saved.
I don’t think Dustin’s points are wholly without merit (in this particular thread). The Bible in the New Testament does repeatedly warn Christians to be on the look out for false teachers, false doctrine, and false presentations of the Gospel.
I think some groups (such as P and P) could be a lot more kind hearted or gracious in how they go about calling out what they perceive to be false teachings, though.
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Serving Kids wrote,
If you read the portion from link to Galatians, the problem was not about dis-unity, lack of peace, and division, but about Peter joining in with a group that was making some other “thing,” practice, rule, or condition, a requirement for salvation.
The thrust of that passage was Paul re-iterating that one cannot be saved by works, (from Gal 2),
You said,
I think they do, but it should be done with a lot of humility.
Paul said Christians are to judge other Christians – to judge those within the church, not those in the world. How are you going to do that if you don’t make any sort of determination on whether or not Fred (the guy who sits next to you every week in church) is actually saved or not?
I was reading a blog post by Olson not too long ago. You can read it here, –Is a Carnal Christian Saved?–
Olson was saying in that post, what do you do with a man who says he is a Christian, has attended church weekly for 20 years, but you find out he is abusive to his wife at home, controls people in the church, and is a bully? Do you really think that guy was ever saved, wouldn’t you doubt?
You would probably wonder about his salvation, if he ever really repented and trusted in Jesus, because his life does not bear any outward marks of having been transformed or having received Jesus.
I’ve looked at the constantly bullying, greed, vulgarity of Rev. Mark Driscoll, and I am not convinced Driscoll is saved or ever was. I don’t think Driscoll is a Christian.
Jesus said “by their fruit you will know them”… which assumes you will be judging other people at times.
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Bridget said,
As you sure they were not believing Jews? The portion of Galatians I re-read in Gal 2 seems to indicate they were believers, not posers.
More to the point, Peter, who everyone agrees was a believer, and Barnabas, another believer, were influenced and bought into the false teaching, regardless if those instigating were true believers or not.
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Keith Blankenship said,
Dustin Germain
I would like to put something to you. My sister attends an Anglican Church here in Australia. The minister is an ordained Reverent and the assistant minister has a Master of Divinity. Both these ministers are women. I am certain this Church would welcome you with open arms, but could you ‘be in unity with them?’. Would you consider them brothers and sisters in Christ? Would you draw into their community and would you let them teach you about why they had females in leadership? ‘How united do you believe you could be with them?’
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Lydia, your post of FEBRUARY 18, 2015 @ 12:33 PM
reminds me of a time I was looking around amazon (book site). I found a book title having to do with why people are staying away from church.
The way the book was titled, you would assume it would be supportive of people who feel disenfranchised by their churches, but the reviews to the book told otherwise.
So many older people said they bought the book because they feel as though their church has left them, and they thought that the book would help them recover or make sense of things.
These are people who went to the same church for ten, twenty, or more years, but at some point, their preacher decided to swap out everything, and didn’t want to listen to their feelings.
These people said their church dropped the traditional hymns for rock and roll songs. And so on.
They said that the book title of this book I saw on amazon sounded as though it would be sympathetic to their plight, but they bought a copy, read it, and the author spends the whole book chewing them out and criticizing them!
The author spends the whole book telling them, ‘so what if your church changed, and you hate the new rock music, and your preacher is not sympathetic that you feel marginalized, it’s to draw in the younger folks, it’s to grow the church, so shut up and suck it up.’
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Mark,
Soteriology is about salvation, the study of the doctrine of salvation. I knew that without having to look it up…
I’m not sure about synergism, if that has to do with the belief that humankind has to work along with God to accomplish salvation? I’ll have to look that up.
Here’s Wiki’s page about it:
–Synergism (theology)–
Mark said,
If that is true, he’d consider me a heretic.
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Speaking of CARM.
A woman who used to work for CARM (I’m not sure if she is still with them or not), who I believe was a moderator on their forums, was accused by another Christian woman of online harassment and stalking.
I read her blog posts about this a couple years ago, so I can’t remember all the specifics, so it made me rather distrustful of CARM in general, though I do think some of CARM’s apologetics material is okay.
This Christian woman rejects complementarianism, and writes books and blog pages defending women being equal to men, etc, and I think that is what started the CARM lady harassing her and stalking her over the web.
You can read one of several posts about it here:
–To Diane Sellner of CARM–
She had some other page with very detailed histories of how bad the harassment got, but I don’t remember where I saw those pages.
The daughter of the guy who runs CARM, Rachel Slick, became an atheist. You can find her story searching for the headline, “The Atheist Daughter of a Notable Christian Apologist Shares Her Story” on Patheos blog, The Friendly Atheist.
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Daisy,
Peter was a wee bit of a wimp in certain circumstances. Yes, Paul indeed fronted him off because of his not standing firm, but the folks that initially started these teaching were infiltrating the believers. They were wolves among the sheep setting out to cause problems. Peter became afraid and baby Christians who saw Peter as a strong leader followed along like good little sheep. Peter knew better and needed a firm hand to get him back on track. Paul’s opposition to the practice of mandatory circumcision was correct, it meant nothing as far as salvation was concerned.
If Paul were here today he would do the same thing with this group of believers. I stand with my original conviction that these men were Christians with flaws. I am a Christian with flaws. I know of no Christian who has none.
As far as P&P judging individuals, did they personally know any of these men? Do they know the fruit they bore? I know what they confessed at their death. They confessed Jesus. That is enough for me.
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Brenda, you said,
“Paul’s opposition to the practice of mandatory circumcision was correct, it meant nothing as far as salvation was concerned.”
Yes, salvation was the crux of the matter. Paul went on to mention that works are not necessary for salvation. Right after mentioning confronting Peter to his face over the Judaizers, Paul wrote this:
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
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I believe it was at a CARM conference where CON originally met Miano and thus began his abortion protest “ministry.”
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Brenda said,
I don’t have to meet or know Mark Driscoll personally to arrive at the conclusion that he is not a Christian, though he tries to pass for one.
I’ve read excperts from Driscoll’s books, I’ve read his blog posts, and he is constantly rude, egotistical, obscene, is apparently very greedy, etc.
Just because someone claims to believe in Jesus does not necessarily make that person a Christian.
Mormons and JWs claim to “believe in Jesus,” but they have the “wrong Jesus,” so their faith is bogus.
This blog and the other one regularly run stories about “Christians” who molest children in churches, and then, when the parents seek justice for it, the “Christian” leaders cover up that abuse for years, and the leaders stonewall and victim-blame.
I have a hard time accepting that someone who claims to be a Christian would molest children, that Christians who hear about the abuse would think it OK to cover it up and defend the molester, but this happens frequently.
I don’t know any of those people personally, either; I just read their stories on these types of blogs. I don’t think it’s necessary for me to have to know them personally.
I’ve never met Julie McMahon (sorry if I spelled her name wrong), but I believe her vs. her ex, Tony Jones. I have a hard time believing that Jones is a Christian, even though he has a Christian blog and writes Christian books.
– Is a Carnal Christian Saved?
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My link above should be to this page,
Is A Carnal Christian Saved,
–Link to Olson post on Patheos blog–
As he explains there, just because someone claims the name of Christ does not necessarily mean they ever were a Christian, doesn’t mean they repented and trusted Christ.
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Daisy,
I have agreed with you on many a topic. I know the verse that you bolded. It does not change my mind about these men. They had faith in Jesus Christ. They believed in the cross, they were not backing down to terrorists. I find that quite a testimony. I don’t think God will send them away because they had some dietary restrictions added to their faith.
I believe in divorce for abuse, desertion and adultery. Some or many would call me a heinous sinner doomed to Hell for these beliefs. I know differently because we have both the Old and New Testaments to discern from. Again, I say P&P did not know these men from Adam prior to their death. They cannot judge their fruit. They weren’t there.
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Brenda said,
“I have agreed with you on many a topic. I know the verse that you bolded. It does not change my mind about these men. They had faith in Jesus Christ. They believed in the cross, they were not backing down to terrorists. I find that quite a testimony”
I was not talking about the Coptics who were decapitated.
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I” should say that the Baptists who have doubted my Christianity, at least openly, have been of the Arminian type.”
I have only met “Arminian” Baptists in the last 15 years or so. The SBC I grew up in was so free will that most would call us Pelagian today. Heretics. We believed in personal responsibility and the priesthood of believer. It was drilled into our heads.
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Daisy,
There is a huge difference in believing that Jesus existed and having faith in Jesus. There is a difference in complete works righteousness without repentance and not completely believing like one group would have you to. There are all sorts of denominations that don’t agree with one another. I believe there will be saved individuals from most of them. God knows their heart and the intent of the heart. Doctrine gets to be a little over rated. Being wrong in one area does not change the heart unless it is a heinous sin.
Ok Mark Driscoll is really pushing the envelope. He is such a public person there is no way of interpreting his heart any other way than it needs Christ. We’ve heard him speak, read his writings and know his wicked interpretation of scripture. He bears no fruit other than spoiled fruit.
Christians who molest children ARE NOT Christians. They are evil, sinful men that belong in prison. A person who would cover it up is just as guilty as the perp himself. These kinds of people exist in every occupation, race, denomination etc….
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“One cannot have two masters. Just as one cannot pledge their allegiance to both Jesus and Money, they cannot pledge their allegiance to both Jesus and to a set of doctrines. Where the denizens of the cult at Pulpit and Pen are elevating allegiance to their doctrine to the place where it, not allegiance to Jesus, is the standard of salvation, one must conclude that they may not be Christians. Certainly the tone of their public discourse is not Christ-like. ”
Bingo
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Daisy,
You may well be seeing something I’m missing. What I am seeing is that Germain is trying to get us 1) to acknowledge some extreme situation where it is appropriate to distance ourselves, and then get us 2) to concede that it is, therefore, perfectly acceptable to question the salvation of anybody and everybody who disagrees with him on whatever point of doctrine. It seems to me he is attempting to get us to fall for a reductio ad absurdum ploy.
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Daisy isn’t it wonderful that we have a Just and Merciful God that does not judge as man judges.
Matthew 5:11-12 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you”.
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Daisy,
I was not talking about the Coptics who were decapitated.
Then who were you talking about???? lol I’m confused.
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I hope when I graduate from college I can write like you, Gary.
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Thank you for writing this! I’m a Coptic Orthodox Christian and I am absolutely appalled at the notion that these brave men aren’t considered “Christian” when they follow a Church that traces its roots to St. Mark himself! Our community is in mourning and I have seen many people who have given us support and paid us condolences, but apparently some Evangelicals don’t think we are Christian! Please forgive me if my tone is a little harsh, but this is very upsetting!
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Tony, my heart goes out to you and your community. As you can see, many SSB readers here are equally outraged at the behavior we’ve seen displayed. We know Christians by their love. This is not a display of love. I appreciate your comment.
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Hi Tony Rezk,
Please give my heartfelt condolences to the beloved brothers and sisters in the Lord who are Orthodox Christians who are being persecuted and who are grieving.
My grandparents were Orthodox Christians and I am an evangelical Christian. Many in the evangelical Christian community frequently get it wrong and don’t love their neighbors, including Christians of other denomination as the Lord commanded. They have also been hateful toward unbelievers and disgraced the Lord’s name, and the church’s witness. When unbelievers can be more loving and decent than professing Christians than there IS a serious problem with those professing Christians.
There are many things that I have found wrong with the evangelical community. This kind of mean-spiritedness and pettiness I have found very disturbing.
<
In Christ,
Michaela
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Tony, we weep with those who weep. You are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Isn’t it wonderful that Jesus holds the book of life and He knows whose names are written within. ‘Not them’. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” I don’t think Jesus asked Him first ‘do you attend an Evangelical church’.
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Thank you Julie once again for writing this post and thank you for the heart felt condolences. Michaela, Thank you as well. Our Lord commanded us to love one another, and that is how people will recognize that we are his disciples. I have also found mean-spiritedness in lots of places, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant. Its not just a problem with evangelicals. We shouldn’t be over zealot to the point where we take the place of God by judging who is “Christian” and who isn’t.
God bless you all,
Tony
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Tony I had a long rhetorical post all ready to post to say what I think of those individuals who said those brave men are not followers of Jesus. That would not honor them, I am sorry for your community’s loss, I am sorry for the added pain of some folks who, nevermind, I am sorry for their hurtful words. In those folks view I am, as most of us here, considered in the same boat, Tony I would much rather be in your boat than theirs, any day of the week. Those folks killed are now looking into the face of the Lord Jesus and that is a fact, or there is no God and we need not be afraid. I think there is a Loving Father. Again I am sorry for your community’s loss.
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Tony Rezk,
I was saddened by the news of the brave men that followed Jesus to the very end. My heart goes out to their families and the community. It is pure joy to know that they have met Jesus face to face and are living this day in paradise. I am glad you came here. Perhaps some of the nay sayers will hear your words and your words will pierce their cold hearts.
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Tony Rezk, God bless YOU and all in your community who are in mourning. We, too, weep for these brave Christians, who died with the Name of Jesus on their lips. They are, without question, in the Presence of the Lord.
You all are in my prayers.
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“What I am seeing is that Germain is trying to get us 1) to acknowledge some extreme situation where it is appropriate to distance ourselves, and then get us 2) to concede that it is, therefore, perfectly acceptable to question the salvation of anybody and everybody who disagrees with him on whatever point of doctrine. It seems to me he is attempting to get us to fall for a reductio ad absurdum ploy.”
In Calvin’s Geneva, they could simply imprison, torture or burn people who wandered off Calvin’s doctrinal reservation. They cannot do that anymore so they try to speak ex Cathedra. Frankly, they sound like caricatures of the despot Calvin.
Here is the bigger point: Doctrine over people is a cult position.
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Tony Rezk, thank you for stopping by to share with us. May the God of all comfort be with you and your community during this time of great loss.
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Thank-you Michaela, you hit that rusty nail on the head. Standing with zooey111 in prayer for all those who are suffering for Christ, with Christ, and in the name of Jesus Christ…..for we share in their mourning from a physical distance, yet the Spirit draws us nearer to thee. Our hearts truly grieve for such injustice.
LORD, we beg of You to change the hearts of all of those who have denied You or have fallen away. Please turn their eyes to You as the hope of mankind rests only in You, precious Jesus, not any earthly man or any earthly kingdom that we have created. We humbly submit our prayers to you with tears of brokenness and tears of love for the lost and the suffering. John 3:17 In the Name of our King, Jesus, the Christ.
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I write a blog and published a work concerning this topic. Most people who read it believe the Copts are Christian.
My biggest blowback came from a former student of mine( and his wife) who is associated with the IMB and is a missionary…
They both followed the old line that Copts, Catholics, pretty much anyone who is liturgy based is not saved….
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Unbelievable, K.D. I don’t want to be associated with that kind of “christianity.”
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@lydia00:
Or the Caliph of ISIS.
Give them an army of Fighters for God and you’d have a Reformed ISIS.
Absolute Power plus Utter Righteousness is a really bad combination.
@KD:
ISIS sure believed the Copts were Christians.
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Tip, everybody:
When you see guys like the Pulpiteers telling God who’s Saved and who’s Not, ever notice which category they put THEMSELVES in?
“ME SHEEP! YOU ALL GOATS! HAW! HAW! HAW!”
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“They both followed the old line that Copts, Catholics, pretty much anyone who is liturgy based is not saved….”
So, to be saved one has to worship in a particular manner? Sounds like works salvation to me.
Funny thing is, Leanne Payne, one of the handful of people whose ministries have been effective to work such transformation as I have enjoyed in my Christian walk, is a very liturgical Episcopalian. Actually, I should say she was Episcopalian. She died yesterday morning at her home in Wheaton, Illinois. Though I was never personally introduced to her, tears well up as I write this. Anybody who dares to claim that she is not in the face-to-face presence of our Lord is quite mistaken.
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Tony Rezk
I too was appalled at the behavior of these P&P men. My heart goes out to the families of these Christian men who were martyred. They are with the Lord I am sure. This whole discussion these P&P men initiated makes my stomach sick. They have made their doctrine their idol.
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Hi Daisy,
Yes, if you don’t embrace Reformed Calvinism most Neo-Calvinist (or whatever they like to call themselves) you more than likely would be considered a heretic.
Strangely, Calvinist have so many dialects that split hairs over their interpretations of TULIP as many Calvinist don’t embrace all 5 Points. Some embrace 3 or 4 points in different combinations making their views contrary thereby making Calvinist heretics in their own eyes, top to bottom.
More disturbing is their Methodology they practice which in many cases isn’t Scriptural and lacking Love especially to those that don’t embrace Reformed Calvinism..
They have a tendency to judge harder on Christians who choose to avoid Calvinism.
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K.D.,
My old church believed that too (that anyone liturgical wasn’t saved). So blind and arrogant. No wonder nearly everyone in my generation went elsewhere.
I guess there weren’t any Christians for most of the past 2000 years. (Shaking my head.)
What a bunch of hooey. These dudes need to shut their mouths and listen. They are so busy creating noise, they do not feel the Spirit moving.
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Gary W.,
So sorry to hear about Leanne Payne. She was the forerunner of spiritual healing in the past 40 years. I didn’t know she lived in Wheaton. Was she always there?
Condolences…
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Wow thank you all for the support, it’s truly appreciated! I just want to say that I stumbled on this website by accident because I was looking for pictures of the martyrs and then I saw the picture of the original post and read the article! It was all by coincidence, or maybe it wasn’t just mere coincidence! Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Luther himself, and I believe some of the reformed fathers, worshiped in either a liturgical or semi liturgical manner?
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@TonyRezk:
Yes. Luther was liturgical; the Lutheran church uses a Western-Rite Liturgy modified to address Luther’s beefs with the Catholic Mass. Even Calvin (father of most of the non-Liturgical Protestants) practiced infant baptism. Adult Believer’s Baptism (common among non-Liturgical Protestants today and universal among Baptists & Fundagelicals) was at the time practiced only by the Anabaptists.
I’ve heard it said what we’re now seeing in Islam is a Muslim version of the Reformation Wars. The Reformation Wars were a century-long bloodbath across Europe with atrocities in the Name of God that would be very familiar to ISIS. The only thing the feuding Protestant churches could agree on was that Catholics were The Enemy and Anabaptists Must ALL Be Exterminated — again, attitudes that would be very familiar to ISIS except applied to other Muslims.
P.S. The Truly Reformed Pulpiteers might not acknowledge the 21 Copts as “real Christians”, but ISIS sure did. And the RCC; Pope Francis has proclaimed them Martyrs. (But then, some guys are not happy unless they’re Counting Coup on somebody else.)
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@Anonymous2:
Again, the same view of Church history as the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Branch Davidians, and a lot of Reverend Founding Apostle Joe Soaps of Independent Restored New Testament Churches. AND the same view of Islamic history as the Wahabi & ISIS.
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@Mark:
You remember the theoretical ultimate End State of Protestantism, don’t you? MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and/or Apostates.
Just like ISIS’s version of Sharia when it comes to non-ISIS Muslims. Pagans can be converted and/or enslaved, Heretics and Apostates (i.e. Fake Muslims) must be exterminated.
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Anonymous2,
If memory serves, Leanne Payne returned to Wheaton some 10’s of years ago. I say returned because she spent time elsewhere following her tenure as a Wheaton Graduate Student in about the early 70’s. I recommend her autobiography as being well worth reading:
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/p8fjkkb
As one whose (almost) adult life started when she, as a minor, eloped in front of some Arkansas(?) justice of the peace, she is testimony to the power of our God to lift to extraordinary heights any who will but obey Him. There is much to inspire (and emulate), but as I sit here typing I am entertained to recall her description of how the Wheaton College of her time wasn’t quite sure how to deal with this new phenomenon of the presence of a divorced single mother.
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@Monique:
Which is why I make a lot of cracks about “these P&P men” being like classic Communists except for calling their Purity of Ideology “Correct Doctrine.” Different buzzwords, same attitude, same behavior.
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Julie Anne and Person I Can’t Recall…..thanks for the info on CARM. It reaffirms all my conclusions about them. Which is good 🙂
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JD Hall and James White were on the Dividing Line today. Boy well nevermind.
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I’m glad I don’t have the time to listen. It would get me worked up.
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I watched it all, truly I do not think they get it, for example I think JD Hall is a “YEC” and a literalist and they are talking on electronics that use the same “theories” as those that denote the age of the universe / earth. Some of what was spoken of had some real ring of truth, most of it, well I and they live in two different universes. I pray I never have to live in theirs.
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Thank you for speaking out against the self righteous bigots at Pulpit and Pen and their ilk.
I was disgusted to read about so many people who call themselves Christians are dictating to all who is and is not Christian.
According to these bigots who are dictating who is and is not Christian, the original Twelve Apostles would not pass muster and would be disqualified from being a true follower of Jesus. And Brenda R is right about the thief next to Jesus. Good example.
These murdered Egyptian Coptic Christians were tortured to get them to denounce Jesus. They would not denounce Jesus so they were executed. They all cried the name of Jesus as they were murdered. They are Christian. More Christian than those who are saying the Coptic Christians are not Christian.
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CARM did great harm to Cheryl Schatz years back. They were decietful and cruel.
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Our resurrected Lord is usually described as being seated at the right hand of God. Judging by the experience of Stephen, however, Jesus is standing as He receives our martyred Coptic brethren. Acts 7:56.
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For people to say that other religions believe in a “different Jesus” as has been said of the Coptic Christian church (and other religions mentioned in comments), is showing ignorance and bigotry and closed mindedness.
Just because some believe DIFFERENTLY ABOUT Jesus does not mean they believe in a “different Jesus”. If I believe one way about Pres. Obama, and you believe another way, does not mean one of us believes in a different Obama. It is the same person, just different ways of thinking about what we believe about him. So what.
The same could be said for every mainstream Christian religion and their congregants regarding Jesus……and the Bible.
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Thanks to Dustin for taking on my thoughts. In the middle of a lot of upheaval with moving cross-country so am unable to get into a discussion, but scrolling through the comments I didn’t see this posted here. Good article. Articulates what I believe in this. Some pertinent questions:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/the-15-and-the-reprehensible-dishonoring-of-christs-martyrs/
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That is a dead link, Lydia, but I did a Google search and found an article by Wade Burleson. Wade is careful to back up his articles with links and quotes, so I believe him: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2007/10/free-use-of-word-heretic-is-unhelpful.html
But this should come as no surprise. If Tony Miano and my former suing pastor are friends of CARM, Matt Slick, it makes sense that they would behave the same way, especially towards women.
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lydia00 wrote:
“CARM did great harm to Cheryl Schatz years back. They were decietful and cruel.”
I am familiar with Schatz’s work and her treatment at the hands of CARM. Theirs is a sterile and stultified religion propped up by fear on the part of folks who have a sincere desire to please God. Oh how the Devil must cackle with delight when that divine image within is used for his own twisted ends!
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Welcome, EG, and thank you for sharing your comment.
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Just saw this come across my FB news feed:
Brother of two Christian victims of ISIS calls in to SAT-7 live programme ‘We Will Sing’:
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Oh, my goodness, Monique. Thank you so much for posting that. I cried when Beshir told how his mother would respond if she saw a member of ISIS on the street, and when he prayed for the members of ISIS. You cannot defeat that kind of love. What an example these brothers and sisters are.
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Yes, it’s very moving ~ hard not to cry. It makes these martyr’s and their families all the more real ~ real faces, real people going through something we cannot relate to and showing such love and forgiveness.
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Monique, Thank you. What a precious mother that son describes.
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I would like to think that I would be as strong and forgiving as these people are, but I don’t believe I would be.
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Interesting article:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/a-little-pharisaical-southern-baptist-copt-martyrs-christianity/
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@ Melody:
Thought after reading the American Conservative article (and the P&P excerpt within it): maybe I’m not paying attention, but I don’t recall many popular press articles that referred to Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and “Christians,” as P&P claims happens. IIRC they usually call them LDS/Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Maybe one or two times I remember Mormons being called Christian. Though as I said, my memory may be faulty or I’m not reading widely enough.
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Hester-I didn’t catch that, but agree with you. I think that point JD makes isn’t even relevant bearing in mind the professions of faith these 21 made on their death.
Watching that video testimony is hard for me. This latest attack of P&P is the worst incident of friendly fire from Western Christians on Eastern I’ve seen in my lifetime. These families should not have that to contend with. It’s one thing dealing with hate from the world; it’s another thing when ignorance takes a pulpit to judge people’s hearts.
As an adult Third Culture Kid and a mother of two precious boys, I am shocked and grieved at this arrogance in segments of Anerican Christianity. It is heartbreaking.
I think we can only respond by calling such pride out in the church and praying for the families grieving loved ones, as well as for the salvation of IS members as a result of the testimony of God’s saints.
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And apologies for other typos thanks to auto “correct”.
I gotta stop reading and get some rest. Apologies if I don’t reply further. Trying to stay away from stress but on this issue so much needs to be said.
This is the ultimate in bullying-to dismiss an entire group of Christians because they don’t adhere to your orthodoxy. I don’t believe all who claim to be Christians are, but that applies to every denomination. Fruit will grow if the Spirit is there. Otherwise it’s just a cult of control and tradition. I think many Copts know their Bibles too.
This latest P&P incident shows a hard heartedness that is disturbing.
Why anyone would think capitalizing on such events to promote their theology was a loving thing to do while mothers, wives, children, and so on are grieving, is beyond me.
We are not saved by Calvinism nor by perfect theology that even demons believe but by Jesus Christ who loved us while we were yet sinners and gave Himself for us in humility. Those who honestly trust in and profess His name even on pain of death are saved. Our hearts, not our words matter.
If we are not characterized by love, we are not Christlike. P&P have not shown love; they show their arrogance in this latest post.
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Hi Julie, would you mind if I post something quick that responds to P&P’s objections of our christianity? I don’t want to turn this into to a debate nor do I want to look like I’m projecting my believes on anyone on this board. I just want to clear up any confusion that might exist!
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