J.D. Hall, Persecution, Pulpit & Pen blog, Troubling Tweets

Pulpit and Pen is Publicly Correcting Church Leaders: The 21 Egyptian Beheadings? They weren’t real Christians, so was it true Christian persecution?

Julie Anne

Pulpit and Pen blog disses on Evangelical leaders who claim 21 Egyptian martyrs were “true” Christians.

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In the face of unthinkable tragedy – the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, a contributor at Pulpit and Pen blog has gotten on his bully pulpit to criticize those who call these 21 Egyptian martyrs “Christians.”

Pulpit and Pen, persecution, Coptic Christians, 21 Christians beheaded

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From Pulpit and Pen blog by anonymous author. Could it be J.D. Hall?

Southern Baptist and evangelical leaders were stumbling over themselves yesterday in a race to demonstrate who was the most sympathetic to our fellow Christians and these brave martyrs for the faith.

https://twitter.com/edstetzer/status/567171587326369795

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If you read the Pulpit and Pen article, the author does discuss the tragedy, but the main message is this:  People, you can’t call them Christians when they are NOT Christians.

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Interestingly, today, R. C. Sproul, Jr. (who is admired by many of the Pulpiteers) posted a tweet:

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and a blog post today and had this to say in his article:

While Christians can mourn over the persecution of believers, they ought never be surprised or ashamed.

And he continues:

And as we are recording today, much on everyone’s mind is the video that has been passed around of multiple beheadings committed by ISIS against those in Egypt who go by the name of Coptic Christians.

I will be watching Twitter to see if Pulpiteers feel the need to correct their friend, RC 2.

The most disgusting thing to me is these are the same folks who are friends with Tony Miano, who some claim was persecuted when he was arrested in Scotland for using homophobic language and had to spend the night in jail.  If you remember, Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland after hearing that his open air preacher buddy had been arrested twice within 2 weeks, also for using homophobic language.  It was after those two arrests that Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland:

https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/statuses/380386063279087616

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Miano knew the climate of the country and decided he needed to go to Scotland and made the choice to discuss the gay lifestyle in his Gospel presentation (because doesn’t everyone need to include that as part of their Gospel presentation?) and got arrested for using homophobic language. This “persecution” I believe was a planned event. After his release, he spent hours and hours on social media talking about his persecution in Scotland. It was easy to watch how he spent his time on his social media trail from afar (Twitter, YouTube, articles, comments on media articles, interviews). Tony brought attention to self and called it persecution. Why did he not use his time after the arrest to busy himself with Gospel work and postpone the media interviews?  Hmm

So, Tony Miano gets the pass among the Pulpiteers because his Gospel presentation matches their idea of a true Gospel presentation. His persecution is bona fide because he passed the Pulpit & Pen test:  first being a “true” Christian, secondly, presenting a “true” Gospel presentation when he was arrested = “true” persecution.

Award goes to Tony for having the full-meal deal:  he passes as a Christian and he was persecuted doing righteous works . . . . . . . and everyone said,”wowowowowowow.”

6314267041_81e899188a

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But those poor Coptic Christians.  Nope, Pulpit and Pen is sad about their fate (and they are really trying hard to keep things kosher with their words under the sad circumstances), but you see, they didn’t pass the Pulpit & Pen muster. Because they were born into their religion and because Pulpit and Pen is able to judge the hearts of men all the way from Montana and wherever else the Pulpiteers live, those 21 Egyptian “Christians” died a sad death and will likely end up in hell. While they died a horrible death, they did not die the same kind of persecuted-for-righteousness-sake death, because they were not true Christians.  In the blog post you can sense the sad violin music playing in the words because the Egyptian’s death likely means they all went to hell, so no trophy for them. (According to P&P logic, of course.)

So, that is how P&P is spending their time lately – going after Evangelical church leaders who are tweeting about the atrocities of the beheadings – and Pulpit and Pen feels it is their responsibility to let all the church leaders in America know this really wasn’t that kind of persecution – you know the kind that earned Tony Miano a symbolic golden trophy among his peers.

 

 

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photo credit: beta 2 via photopin (license)

280 thoughts on “Pulpit and Pen is Publicly Correcting Church Leaders: The 21 Egyptian Beheadings? They weren’t real Christians, so was it true Christian persecution?”

  1. Apparently the Pulpit and Pen people think that entrance to the kingdom of God includes passing a doctrine quiz: if you answer correctly you’re in but if you’re doctrine’s off then you’re out. They leave no room for the true work of the Spirit in bringing to the Father those who belong to Jesus. Are some works based people not Christians? Sure. Are some grace based thinkers not Christians? Sure. Because it’s not what we think that makes us Christians, nor even the label we adopt, but who claims us as his own. If Jesus says we’re his, then we’re his.

    “I know my sheep and my sheep know me” – John 10:14.

    If Jesus knew those Copts and they knew Jesus then they’re Christians, Pulpit and Pen’s opinion to the contrary notwithstanding.

    Liked by 7 people

  2. Even if the Pulpit and Pen folks evangelized and converted the Egyptian Coptics they would continue to doubt and question their true salvation. This is so sad and displays their utter lack of compassion and grace.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. His persecution is bona fide because he passed the Pulpit & Pen test: first being a “true” Christian, secondly, presenting a “true” Gospel presentation when he was arrested = “true” persecution.

    @Tim:

    Apparently the Pulpit and Pen people think that entrance to the kingdom of God includes passing a doctrine quiz: if you answer correctly you’re in but if you’re doctrine’s off then you’re out.

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
    Purity of Ideology.

    And somehow, I figure the Egyptian Coptic Church has a longer and more solid historical trace than the MousekePulpiteers.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. This is truly sad. Sad that these people lost their lives, sad that people are judging those who have died, sad that they believe that theirs is the only way to look at things. I have no idea what an Egyptian Coptic Christian believes and until today have never heard of them. If they believe that Jesus died for their sins and it is through Him that they get to the Father, does anything else really matter?

    There are all kinds of doctrine in this world, much of which I do not agree with, but in the end the only thing that matters is if you accepted Christ. I can’t judge these people, but I will mourn right along with all of the others who have lost their lives recently at the hands of these monsters.

    I truly wish all of these big religious leaders would find a new hobby and go home.

    Liked by 3 people

  6. Wow. I know P&P doesn’t like the Pope either, but he’s more of a Christian than they are.

    “Pope Francis has today condemned the beheading of 21 Coptic Egyptians by ISIS militants, saying all Christians ‘be they Catholics, Orthodox, Copts or Lutherans’ are one faith, proclaiming the murdered men martyrs.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2955856/Egypt-s-revenge-ISIS-Military-reveals-footage-air-strikes-killed-50-extremists-beheaded-21-Christians-camera.html

    Liked by 3 people

  7. Brenda I agree, EXCEPT the only place these big religious leaders are BIG, RELIGIOUS. Or LEADERS is in their own perverse minds.

    With respect to these murder victims NOT being ” real Christians ” I find that utterly discusting. Coptic Christians are Believers that are trusting in the finished work of the cross for their salvation. Anyone elevating secondary doctrinial issues as essential for salvation is a FALSE TEACHER, regardless of what denominational hole they crawl out of.

    Sometimes I think the ultra- looney folks like pulpit and pen are more dangerous within the United States than Islamic terrorists. I already give them credit for one fatality.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. “I agree, EXCEPT the only place these big religious leaders are BIG, RELIGIOUS. Or LEADERS is in their own perverse minds.”

    Scott, I concur.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “One is saved by faith alone in Christ, but one cannot be saved without an orthodox understanding of what that means.”

    I suppose that the Apostles weren’t saved because ‘all’ they knew was that Jesus was Lord and hadn’t worked out a system of theology?

    I hate to say this but the Pulpiteers are ugly people. They seem to have a need to be special and positively gloat over the idea that other people who love Jesus have gotten something wrong and will suffer in hell for eternity.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. In all honestly, when I heard about these beheadings, I wondered how long it would be before someone said this. In my experience, non-liturgical Protestants tend to claim that anyone who is liturgical and/or non-Protestant is a “dead” Christian. I know this because I am Lutheran (= liturgical and mostly Protestant – some Lutherans don’t use Protestant but I think most would) and have known many non-liturgical Protestants. They would talk openly about how Lutherans, Catholics, etc. aren’t saved, until they found out we were Lutheran, at which point they expressed amazement because we did not fit their mental picture. Even many of our longtime non-liturgical Protestant friends assumed we were Baptist for years because of this stereotype. To get around this, you either have to go above and beyond the call of duty, like be the only Episcopal church in the diocese that opposes the gay bishop or something like that, to “prove” that you’re not morally lax and “dead” like all other liturgical folks, or you have to give up your identity and become exactly like the non-liturgical Protestants. Then you will be accepted.

    Thus, Coptics = liturgical and non-Protestant, therefore = not Christian. The math is straightforward and extremely common. I am not surprised at all. Because unless you attend either an Arminian Baptist/Bible church or a Reformed church, you are lost.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Marsha,
    I don’t believe they do. If they do, they are not getting the same insight to who Jesus is that I am.

    Like

  18. Hester,

    I go to a Bible church, which is neither Arminian or Reformed. Whew, I was scared there for a minute. But in all seriousness, The only way to God is through Jesus in spite of your church affiliation or none at all. The thief didn’t have much time to check into a local church, but Jesus took him anyway. The 21 seem to have it right. The guys trying to get their names out there–not so much.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. The Pulpiteers are merely armchair critics judging other’s salvation from their comfy chairs. How dare they judge the faith of those who have given their very lives for believing in Jesus. Those Egytians counted the cost and paid dearly for it. They counted their faith more precious than their own lives.

    Enjoy your lofty life of comfort P&P.

    Liked by 3 people

  21. Just shocked when I saw this….I taught Coptic Christians in adult edu. when I first started teaching school….they are probably some of the most honest, faithful Christians I have ever met.
    These guys do not have a clue….

    Liked by 2 people

  23. “These guys do not have a clue….”

    No they don’t. Can you imagine Jesus saying, “Sorry Coptics. I know you gave your lives for the faith, but these guys with the cushy La-z-Boys have the right doctrine. I’m afraid I’ll have to send you downstairs.”

    Liked by 1 person

  24. “Thus, Coptics = liturgical and non-Protestant, therefore = not Christian. The math is straightforward and extremely common. I am not surprised at all. Because unless you attend either an Arminian Baptist/Bible church or a Reformed church, you are lost.”

    Partially true – the Pulpiteers believe that Arminians and any other non-Reformed Christians are lost too.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. I hope these Pulpit and Pen guys realize that radical Muslims do not differentiate so finely. If someone claims the name of Christ, that’s all they notice or care about.

    Years ago, a Christian friend of mine asked me to help him debate a Muslim lady online.

    The Muslim lady kept lumping all Christians together into one big pot. Almost all the atrocities she brought up expecting me to defend that were done by Christians, in her view, were by the Roman Catholic Church.

    I told the lady I strongly disagree with RCism, and I would therefore not be stuck in a position of defending all of Christianity for things done by Roman Catholics in centuries past. She didn’t want to hear it.

    She kept lumping all self professing Christians together, even though I told her I don’t accept all professing believers of other denominations of necessarily being Christian, depending on their stated doctrine or how they understand the faith.

    I’ve seen several people state online that ISIS is not comprised of “real” Muslims, to which I’d say, I bet the members of ISIS would totally disagree with that.

    It’s kind of irrelevant if you (or Western media) think that “ISIS = Fake Muslims,” because the guys actually in ISIS think they are the most true, purest expression of Islam.

    On the flip side, the (ISIS) Muslims considered the Coptic Christians to be Christians, so it doesn’t matter to them if Pulpit and Pen Christians disagree with Coptic Christian theology or not, and if PP thinks Coptic Christians are not “real” Christians or not.

    To ISIS, Coptic Christians ARE “real” Christians.

    Liked by 2 people

  26. I am not hoping to “graduate” to Heaven in that way, but should God will, I hope to have as clear a testimony as these men….

    For anyone who wants to investigate further, Coptic Christianity seems to be a variant of Eastern Orthodox faith, including episcopal church government, belief that authority of the Church can define the meaning of the Scriptures, sacramentalism, and the like. They are very different from “fundagelicals” like myself.

    But non-Christians? Let God judge, not me, and let me have the guts of these men and meet them in glory.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. The people killed are reported to have made a confession quite similar to that of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. If that was good enough for our Savior, it’s good enough for everyone else.

    Liked by 2 people

  28. I have said this before, drop any one of these P&P writers into a third world country with no ca$h or American privilege, especially when the have to depend on the impoverished locals to feed them and show them mercy. Then we can now useless their rigid doctrine becomes!!!

    Liked by 3 people

  29. The Coptics didn’t confess Calvinism, that’s probably what’s at the heart of Pulpit & Pen’s issue with their salvation. Maybe if they had cried out, “O my Lord Calvin” as their heads were cut off, that would have made a difference.
    That, and the fact that the P&P leader seems to be a Westboro Fred Phelps clone.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Arrogance. Arrogance. Arrogance.
    And “they travel over land and sea to make a single convert then make th twice as much a son of hell as they are”. The Jewish Pharisees didn’t care to do that so I believe this is prophetic. The heartlessness and hardness of heart to write such things when people refused to convert to IS Islam to save their own lives! The foulness of these men to once again pay themselves on the back for their theology following the death of people created in the image of God. Pray God the families of these murdered by evil men do not have to deal with this spiritual abuse on top of their grief. I have done with such blatant wickedness. They may judge our hearts but the Lord knows those who are His. Demons have perfect theology but they do not love the God who loved me and gave Himself for me. I have grave concerns for all these guys and their associates. It is time to shake dust off feet if they refuse rebuke. And I know in Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve connitted unto Him against that Day. Truly horrified at the arrogance and fearful for the lack of reverence I see in this group. Toxic. Evil. Sad.

    Liked by 2 people

  31. I’d like to see Miano plant his feet on the ground in Egypt or Iraq (where today 45 people were burned alive by IS) and offer his brand of evangelism. I’m sure he never would because he’s most likely not willing to risk his life and he would have to use an interpreter. No, he’d much rather go to a safer spot like Scotland where English is spoken and he knows he would only spend a night in jail.

    Liked by 3 people

  33. I was just saying to someone today on Facebook that the fact that they loved the Lord Jesus in the face of death, is evidence, to me, of a supernatural faith that all true believers must have. You don’t die for Jesus if you don’t belong to Him. Come on!

    Liked by 3 people

  34. “In all honestly, when I heard about these beheadings, I wondered how long it would be before someone said this. In my experience, non-liturgical Protestants tend to claim that anyone who is liturgical and/or non-Protestant is a “dead” Christian.”

    Wow, I have not heard that one before. All this ‘who is a Christian and who isn’t’ stuff is rather a new phenomon for me in just the last 20 years or so. With the rise of Calvinism.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. They are Christians. I went a round with a Presbyterian TE about this years ago with reference to the Christians in Lebanon and in the Balkans. Some of this is ignorance (don’t ever try to tell a Presbyterian they are wrong) but some is just an uncharitable attitude.

    These folks died martyrs. Period.

    Hester: I have gotten the same response from “non-liturgical” types. Presbys usually couch it in complaints about “later Lutherans” who somehow highjacked Lutheran Christianity. One has to sit these guys down and show them the complete doctrinal continuity. Some Baptists just cannot believe we are Christians, even though in some ways we are more “conservative’. Copts, EOC, etc. don’t stand a chance with these types.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. I should say that the Baptists who have doubted my Christianity, at least openly, have been of the Arminian type.

    Like

  39. @ Keith:

    I should say that the Baptists who have doubted my Christianity, at least openly, have been of the Arminian type.

    Yup, same here. If you look “too Catholic” (i.e., too much liturgy), you’re going to hell.

    Like

  40. After returning from my Baptist grandfather’s funeral years ago, my Pentecostal minister had the gall to tell me he didn’t make it to heaven. You see, my grandfather didn’t speak in tongues and wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name. Wackos come in many flavors.

    Liked by 3 people

  45. Test: If the following people were executed by terrorists, which would not be considered a Christian by Pulpit and Pen:
    1) Ron Sider
    2) Matthew Harrison
    3) Tim
    4)Tony Jones

    Answers?

    Like

  46. Tim: Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I don’t really have it, but I do like to stick it to people who are oppressive.

    Like

  48. http://biblehub.com/revelation/7-9.htm
    Where do they think all these people are going to come from? The influence of American missionaries? These guys seriously need to work-shadow a pastor in a volatile area of India or Indonesia for one year. Currently, their lack of compassion and disrespect of different culture tells me they may simply be too arrogant to submit themselves in a learning capacity to someone they think has inferior theology to themselves. What a tragedy.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. I have a friend from Egypt who is a devout Evangelical Christian and she says Egyptian Christians are indeed just as real Christians as the ones here.

    If they love and obey Jesus, even if it’s not in the American way, then they are real Christians.

    I love these arrogant guys who think they, and not Jesus, are the true and righteous judges.

    Like

  51. Having interacted with believers from a few other cultures and traditions, I find this expresses my reaction to those willfully ignorant of their own church history. God always leaves a remnant throughout the ages, but it might not be the ones who think they are elite.
    https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/really-saved/

    Yes, I too feel my ODD coming on. Interested to see that was not a typo for OCD. Worked with a kid or two who had ODD. People of an older generation might call it something else, but it’s certainly an interesting condition… 😉

    Like

  52. Thanks Anonymous2.
    “If they love and obey Jesus, even if it’s not in the American way, then they are real Christians.”
    Clearly, what we need to get back to is that American Christianity and theology is not the standard for Christianity.
    Firstly, Jesus Christ/Messiah (the Anointed One) is, and secondly, the culture of the early church was entirely different from American church culture, in ways such as how they treated women and slaves/lower classes as entirely equal in Christ. We can quibble about the details, but American church, in my observation, is too often influenced by the surrounding culture in how it views people.
    Since these Egyptian Christians refused to convert to IS Islam, additionally if they confessed what they are purported to have confessed at their death, they shame us by their trust in God to the point of death.
    I doubt we in America and the West are as prepared or willing to face such intense suffering for the sake of Jesus. I truly hope none of this debacle gets back to the families of those slaughtered in the name of Christ. What hard-heartedness to make such claims about people’s hearts based on misguided ideas of superiority.

    Like

  53. ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven’. Matthew 5:10
    Not blessed are those that judge another person’s salvation for they shall see the wrath of those that know the true love of God.

    Liked by 3 people

  54. Hester: I have gotten the same response from “non-liturgical” types. Presbys usually couch it in complaints about “later Lutherans” who somehow highjacked Lutheran Christianity.

    Until THEIR church got it right and Restored Real Original Christianity.
    i.e. the same view of Church History as the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    And (according to the Wikipedia page on ISIS), the exact same view of Islamic History as ISIS — “All others went Apostate long ago; now WE and WE alone restore the Original Pure Islam!”

    Liked by 1 person

  55. On the flip side, the (ISIS) Muslims considered the Coptic Christians to be Christians, so it doesn’t matter to them if Pulpit and Pen Christians disagree with Coptic Christian theology or not, and if PP thinks Coptic Christians are not “real” Christians or not.

    ISIS also does this sort of thing to other Muslims (they burned dozens at the stake in Iraq a day or two ago), because (like PP and Christians), no Muslim outside of ISIS is a “real” Muslim. Sound familiar?

    Liked by 1 person

  57. The sheer ironic idiocy should not be missed that these dudes with a blog think they have a better claim to “an orthodox understanding” than martyrs in an 1,800-year-old tradition called the “Coptic ORTHODOX Church.”

    It goes farther back than that, at least in Tradition. I don’t know about Egyptian Coptics, but Ethiopian Coptics traditionally trace the founding of their Church to that Ethiopian Eunuch in the Book of Acts (remember him?).

    And some of the Palestinian Christians that these bozos send missionaries to convert have been Eastern Rite Christians for almost as long.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. This is an interesting conversation on Twitter between Frank Turk (Pyromaniacs), P&P (whoever is manning the account today) and Tony Miano. Frank Turk is giving P&P some well-deserved push back. To see the whole conversation, click on the timestamp in the upper right-hand corner of the top tweet (Frank Turk’s). What you see here is only 2 tweets – it’s quite a bit longer than that.

    Like

  59. ‘In Christ alone’ + Calvinism ++ submission of women, both now and later +++ male only eldership ++++ Creeds…………. If it is ‘in Christ alone’ why do they find it so necessary to abide by everything that is written in Scripture? They are making Christianity into a works based religion.

    Liked by 1 person

  60. Arguing about what flavor of spirituality is ‘correct’ is about like the abortion industry. Which babies with beating heart beats are ‘real babies’ and which ones should be ‘aborted’…….. Follow Christ in the way that works best FOR GOD and doesn’t praise men/self worship etc.

    Like

  61. So when Christians want to do good works and are in the process of doing them, should they shout out, “I am not doing this for salvation purposes” just to be on the safe side? Or would it just be better not to do any good works to eliminate any confusion?

    Liked by 1 person

  62. I think I need to contact P&P and come up with a P&P-certified Salvation Checklist so that people can laminate and carry in their purses/wallets. When that dreadful day comes, they can whip and show the P&P Salvation Checklist as proof of salvation.

    Like

  63. Suppose you met some people who told you they were believers. They stated they believed in the God of scriptures, believed that Jesus was his Son, that he died for their sins and that he rose from the dead. They believed salvation was by faith and grace, and that loving God and loving people were of supreme import. They were in close community with each other, attended their church weekly, loved their families and friends, served each other in sickness and in health, were openly evangelistic, took care of the widows and orphans, and created a loving environment in which they were able to thrive and affect the community around them. They only had one idiosyncratic belief. They believed that you could only be saved if you followed the OT dietary laws and restrictions. Other than that they were all good.

    Could you be in unity with them? Would you let them attend your Church and mix and mingle with you and your friends? Would you consider them brothers and sisters in Christ and give them an audience as they explained their beliefs? What sort of actions would categorize your love and affection for them? Would you welcome them with open arms? Have ecumenical Church services with them? Would you draw them into your community and give them free reign to integrate themselves into your own service? Would you let them teach you about why they had their unique beliefs about how salvation relates to the dietary laws? Would you let those beliefs get in the way of unity, or would you dismiss that as ultimately a non-issue that you refuse to let divide the two groups? How united do you believe you could be with them?

    Like

  64. dustin germain ‘Could you be in unity with them? Would you let them attend your Church and mix and mingle with you and your friends?’
    Its not our Church it’s Christ’s Church and by the sounds of their very confused understanding of ‘being saved; I think Church is where they need to be so the Holy Spirit can convict them of their error.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Looks like Frank was right, like that broken clock that is well, nevermind. Good job frank. As for the Pulpit and Pen cult, Coptics were Christians right out of the first century and have even more creds when it comes to apostolic succession than even the RC does.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Dustin they would be allowed to attend the Baptist church I am member of but they would not be able to become members because membership is only open to baptised believers. They cannot be baptised until they have made a public confession of their faith, usually following a indepth Bible Study, as per Romans 10:9 ‘that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved’. If you are not a member you virtually have no influence on what happens in the Church.

    Like

  69. “They believed that you could only be saved if you followed the OT dietary laws and restrictions. Other than that they were all good.”

    Actually, I’ve already been there. No pork (heaven forbid you should eat crackers with lard in them), no shellfish, no sugar . . .

    You do realize that the Bible makes allowances for this?

    “Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.”

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Throughout the history of Christianity the Church has been at odds with Christ. It would be nice if we could at least agree on salvation theology but sadly even that has been distorted by the various flavors of religion that have been spawned over the years. I often think that religion has been the easiest of all tools used by Satan to divide and weaken the church. Adding human works on to the final and complete work of Christ is common religious thing.

    One of Paul’s core messages to the church was unity. It was important to Paul. So, unless I wanted to ignore the teachings of Paul I would, of course, engage with my fellow believers … even those whose theology might be differ from mine on key points. Some believers ignore the teachings of Paul and for that I would strongly recommend reading NT Wright’s latest volumes on Paul.

    If I can fellowship with Calvinists, Catholics, Baptists, and even Assembly of God then Coptics ought to be a walk in the park!

    Ya Rabbi Yasou’

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Love this verse: ‘But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7

    Like

  74. “14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.”

    If it’s an issue of salvation for that person then so be it. They should do it unto the Lord. That doesn’t make it binding on other believers, though. We are called to live in unity and peace.

    “15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

    19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

    22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.”

    Like

  75. This is exactly why we have a bazillion denominations today. Not everyone sees eye to eye on what to believe. That doesn’t mean we can’t keep the unity of the Spirit in love.

    Liked by 2 people

  78. Dustin, in that vein, and apologies if I don’t have time to follow up at the moment, but others may chime in for me-since you are asking questions, I have some too.

    Do you believe anyone could be truly saved under the false teachings and rank heresies prevalent during the reign of Constantine, the wicked popes of the Borgia and other dynasties, or even before Christ’s birth, when they had no creeds nor exacting understanding of who the Messiah really would be?

    Is not the truth that “the just shall live by faith” applicable to all ages, regardless of the errors permeating certain times and cultures? Is not God by nature love, which is heartfelt compassion and empathy, not solely elective choosing? Can not there be believers all over the world who are saved by God’s sovereign election and merciful grace, despite faulty theology or limited information?

    I do not deny Calvinists may be saved, even though I am not one. There will be chaff among the wheat, even in the best circles, Jesus said as much. Why do some see fit to judge hearts while claiming God is sovereign over all? Do they lack security and want us all to fear hell, rather than God- to know our fears destroyed by perfect love?! I don’t understand the logic behind this apparent love of being right that too often supersedes humility, respect for grieving image-bearers of God, and an appropriate deference to God’s sovereignty- in which is much mystery-, except that it seems a way to control people.

    My hope isn’t in what facts I believe but in Whose I am.

    I believe based on the evidence seen that we have at least as much evidence of fruits that points to these 21’s likely salvation, as we do for anyone Calvinist, who values their teachings equal to (or above) the loving, humble, formidable, and gracious character and nature of God, as revealed in Jesus Christ.

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  79. I do not understand what the issue is here. The people that we are saddened for are our brothers and sisters in Christ. The men who were martyred have families that mourn them. They do believe in Jesus. They accept Him. They serve Him. They love God/Jesus and one another. They are most likely more dedicated than we are in our culture. So big deal they have dietary restrictions. They are probably healthier than we are too. I believe in things of the OT still hold true today. It doesn’t mean that I take on all of the laws of the OT in order for my salvation, but the OT was given to us for a reason. Everyone has things they will can’t or won’t eat. It is just not really all that important.

    There are probably folks in our churches that limit God’s ability to know what will be in the future. They limit His ability to what our next move is. They minimize that God is bigger than time itself. They don’t believe that God is big enough to handle ALL of our needs. How could God be in all places at the same time. These people that are now in a Glorified body and in total unity with the King I hold in regard to the disciples and apostles in we read of in scripture. They lived out their faith to the very end.

    There are people who believe they cannot listen to anything other than sacred music. For them it is sin. For another it is alright with restrictions of content. So what. I love people who disagree with my beliefs in the Bible. I believe Jonah was kept alive inside the belly of the great fish, others think he died and God brought him back to life. Does it make a difference in the big scheme of things?

    I realize that I am bringing us several issues here and it is 2:30 in the morning, but it infuriates me that people have made themselves judge and jury. They have made themselves God while judging other people. Why can’t radical “Christians” humble themselves to mourn for those that are dying at the hands of terrorists. For crying out loud they had the most beautiful testimony that I have heard of in a while.

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  81. Dustin Germain: Do you believe Lutherans are Christians? If not, why not?
    Don’t be a drive-by commenter. Please answer the questions put to you.

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  83. Melody” Do you believe anyone could be truly saved under the false teachings and rank heresies prevalent during the reign of Constantine, the wicked popes of the Borgia and other dynasties, or even before Christ’s birth, when they had no creeds nor exacting understanding of who the Messiah really would be?” yes

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  84. Here is the point: As far as we can be united with these people; Paul certainly answered that question for us. Swap out circumcision for dietary laws and you are essentially painted a picture of the Judaizers. These were men who believed that unless you has your genitals cut as a sign of your obedience to the ancient mosaic laws, you could not be saved. And so far from acquiescing to that particular theological nuance and dismissing it as simply a difference in opinion, a non-issue- something that did not matter in light of their love for each other, or something to be tolerated as we appeal to the lowest common denominator, Paul warns people about them and ferociously attacks both them and their theological particulars.

    He writes in Phillipans 3:2 “Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh” He further goes on to castigate them, declaring that they were not even true Christians, saying ”Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in–who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery– to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.” Galatians 2:4-5. We see these same people declared anathema and damned by Paul in Galatians 3.

    While some may argue that this was unfair because the Judaizers were kind to others and were well liked and respected in the community, or that they believe certain key essentials, or would affirm certain theological concepts if given the freedom to tweak them in a small way, or that the world might see these divisions and judge the Church for that, Paul didn’t make their benevolence, kindness or generosity the dividing line of unity and Christian acceptance, but rather made their theology and their proper understanding of soteriology the issue which divided and consequently defined them.

    Paul and his team did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour. Why? So that the truth of the gospel would remain with them. While some people may have suggested that they remain united with these people and that we ought not to let theological differences divide, Paul is quick to dismiss that. He understood that they posed a serious threat to the gospel of grace and the universality of the Christian mission.

    For this reason his very goal was to divide. He called them evil men who were dogs and unbelievers. He purposefully disrupted and destroyed any hope of unity that people on either side may have desired because he recognized that unity at the expense of truth is no unity at all. It is nothing but shallow and meaningless symbolism which breeds superficiality.

    From the combox, it would appear that many people here take the exact opposite route, and I get the impression that if it was the Judaizers who were Martyred, the reaction would be exactly the same- “these Christians are in heaven, who are you to judge just because they have some theological differences?”- contra Paul.

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  85. Mr. Germain: I asked a very simple question of you, which can be answered with just a few words. Would you be so kind as to do so?

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  87. “Beentheredonethat- if it’s an issue of Salvation they are likely not saved.”

    How so? The Bible doesn’t say that. In fact, if they were to eat meat without faith it would be a sin. Don’t bait and switch with circumcision. You asked about eating, and the Bible addresses that.

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  88. Dustin,
    The people that Paul was referring to were only concerned about circumcision. They did not believe in Jesus or being saved through the blood of Christ. These were truly evil men that came in as spies to cause havoc and stop the spread of the gospel. They were not true Christian believers. Of course, there were going to be some who were going to be confused by the difference in teaching and may have been circumcised out of fear of not following Christ. They were baby Christians not yet taught all that Jesus had told us. We know since Jesus was a Jew, he was circumcised–Yes!!

    There are many who don’t understand the entire Bible. I don’t, you don’t, no one completely understands all things other than God. Encouraging people to stop judging every little thing about another would be a really good start in showing our light to the world.

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  91. Dustin,
    That is your opinion. If they were coming in as spies to destroy the belief system–what would you call them.

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  92. “Encouraging people to stop judging every little thing about another would be a really good start in showing our light to the world.”

    Yes. I’ve read in places that churches that believe they alone have The Truth(TM) are cultic.

    I think the reason so many epistles were canonized in our current Bible is because there were many “disputable matters” that needed addressing. The first Christians were Jews, and likely followed OT dietary laws out of tradition. Then God poured out his Spirit on the Gentiles. Whoa! Now what? A lot of issues had to be wrestled with. Gentiles comprises a lot of different cultures.

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  93. BTDT,
    Amen, Whoa! is right. We’re all still working out our salvation with the Lord’s guidance an urging of the Holy Spirit. We need more compassion for one another and a lot less judgment. I for one don’t care if someone eats nothing but green eggs and ham.

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  95. One cannot have two masters. Just as one cannot pledge their allegiance to both Jesus and Money, they cannot pledge their allegiance to both Jesus and to a set of doctrines. Where the denizens of the cult at Pulpit and Pen are elevating allegiance to their doctrine to the place where it, not allegiance to Jesus, is the standard of salvation, one must conclude that they may not be Christians. Certainly the tone of their public discourse is not Christ-like.

    Now as to the question whether Mr. Garmin is truly a follower of Jesus . . . Well, who am I to judge?

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  97. Matthew 23:13
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”

    Pulpit and Pen looks just like a HATE group, they are so full of HATE they cant contain themselves. They are helping people run from Christianity.

    ISIS is a hate group, ISIS makes Islam look awful, and Pulpit and Pen makes Christianity look awful.

    I think ISIS and Pulpit and Pen feel important and are having fun, and that is all that matters.

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  99. You know what, dustin? I actually can’t believe I’m defending my position. I came out of a “church” with very legalistic dietary restrictions. I have lived the kind of crazy results it can produce (like having 2 or 3 ministers show up at my husband’s job site, because one employee reported that another was eating a candy bar. 🙂 I know women who were rebuked for having Coke in their fridge or chocolate ice cream in their fridge.)

    Still, I can find no biblical basis for making eating/drinking or not eating/drinking cause to claim someone is not saved. This is something the Bible seems to make a matter of conscience and faith. It is just as wrong for someone who abstains to judge you as it is for you to condemn those who abstain. But the Bible still calls those “brothers and sisters” who feel either way.

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  100. I looked at the theology of Coptic Christianity and I found that they clearly begin with belief in Christ and His resurrection. In respect to salvation that is good enough for me. The other stuff that they add on is scripturally based although I could (and would) argue that it’s not theologically rock solid. But that’s what religion is all about – emphasizing this verse over that verse because it sounds good from the pulpit.

    I loved Brenda’s lesson regarding the Judaizers. It looks like another example is needed in Dustin’s effort to trash a group of Christians who do not conform to his theology. I have no doubt that Paul would find corrections that need to be made … but I am also sure that Paul would allow judgment of individual salvation to be made by Jesus. I just don’t think bloggers from The Pulpit and the Pen have achieved that level of perfection yet. Maybe Fred Phelps can get them there.

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  101. Guest, I dare say that, if the accusers of the saints at P&P were afforded the same prerogatives as the early reformers, they would be burning people at the stake, literally. They would be committing the same sorts of outrages as are being conducted by ISIS. The main difference between P&P and ISIS is that we are fortunate to live under a secular democracy that restrains those who indulge in hatred in the name of religion. Apart from external restraint, there is no end to the atrocities the religious haters will perpetrate. The spirit that drives ISIS is the same as the spirit that drives P&P.

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