***
***
The marital rape post started veering off into a political direction and as I read through some of it, I think it is a topic worthy of discussion here.
I’ll use Ed’s last post as a starting off point and add a few of my words (which Ed probably won’t like), but he’ll still be my friend – lol.
Marsha,
Sorry but I disagree. However, I will say that when I first learned of the certain sect of Christianity that are pushing their hard line right wing agenda’s, I stopped labeling myself as a conservative Christian, although I am conservative that is a Christian. I believe that there are Christians on both sides of the aisle, progressive, etc. But, how many progressives nationwide believe in God vs. the conservatives?
Who is changing Christmas to winter break? When we used to say, Happy Holidays, it was because there were two holidays, Christmas and New Years Day. It used to be that all faiths (except Jews) celebrated Christmas, even atheists. Now all of a sudden the rest of us have to endure a “winter break” greeting? When I hear that, I ask, “What Holiday?” Things are getting nuttier in America these days.
I agree that it didn’t have the 2/3 vote, but it still had a majority that did not want God in the platform at all. So, the question in my mind is NOT how many voted for or against. My question is for those who voted against it, why did they vote against it? The majority voted against it, but the minority was called the winner. That was not right, based on the call for a vote.
***
When I went to public elementary school in San Jose, California. I remember praying in class – we’re talking early 70s (yea, I turned 50 a few months ago – OY). The school holidays were named after religious holidays: Easter break, Christmas break.
Now I have kids in public school. One school is filled with predominantly Mormon students and one day a Mormon student asked the public school teacher if they could pray before an event. I was there and witnessed this. This was not on school grounds and the teacher said yes. What if it was a Muslim student asking to pray in front of the whole class? Would I (or you) be okay with that?
I saw Brenda R.’s comment about Sharia law and did not find it offensive at all. Do you have any European friends? They will likely tell you how the religious landscape of their countries has changed in the past decade or so. Muslims have come into their countries in droves, buying land, sometimes attempting to get Sharia law integrated into the laws of their new land. The way I look at this is it is no different than the Christian Reconstructionists trying to infiltrate our US government and impose Old Testament laws into our current legal system. I have big problems with that, too!
So, my opinion is: let’s have Winter break and Spring break for schools. I don’t want Christ taught in public schools. I want my kids to be educated in the three Rs in public school and leave the religious education to the parents. I don’t mind a class on a survey of religions, but I don’t want our public schools to focus on Christianity as the foundational religion (even if I believe it to be so). We may have Buddhist teachers, Mormon teachers, etc, in our schools. We may have teachers who believe in Benny Hinn theology, etc.
So there’s my opinion. What’s yours? Please be careful when posting – this topic can get heated!
*******
photo credit: JeepersMedia via photopin cc
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Julie Anne: It seems unfair to caution Ed, when An Attorney insulted either Ed or me (or both) and escaped sanction.
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“I don’t seem to be able to comment to you without angering you. So I simply won’t anymore. I was asking a question, not an accusation”
I sincerely doubt that. You are clever with deflections. We have been down this road before. I won’t be going down it again.
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Daisy,
Jay Sekulow), when he defends having the Ten Commandments or whatever in public, he appeals to the fact that the symbol of the cross, or the 10 commandments (whatever it is) is not “Christian” or “religious” but of historic value, a part of our nation.
He shows his wisdom in what will win his case with a secular court.
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It is not a diss to say that someone is ignorant of something. Ignorance is the natural state until one learns, reads, hears, researches, etc. There is a lot of which we are all ignorant. Ignorance is fixable by learning. 60 plus years of reading, extensively in the Bible, theology, commentaries, etc., education in sciences, history, philosophy, sociology, psychology. I have three post-graduate degrees and have completed two post-doctorates. Yet there are things of which I am still ignorant, not having studied them. And it is ignorant to say that the use of the word “God” in a document of necessity, implies “Christian”.
On the other hand, to say someone is stupid is an insult.
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Daisy,
But I can guarantee you if John Piper ran America, he would strip away some of my freedoms on basis of my gender, or would try to, if not birth control pills than other areas – that was my point.
I highly agree with that statement. If you haven’t seen his video on what married women should endure for abuse, go to YouTube and search John Piper abuse. It is very telling of how he feels about women. We aren’t even to talk to our husbands without asking if it’s a good time to talk. Bleck. I collect JP books in thrift stores and yard sales so other people won’t get the garbage he teaches passed on to some unsuspecting soul. The man went on a “mission trip” that you can watch on YouTube as well. His “mission trip” was to pay homage to Calvin. That is not a mission trip it is a history lesson. He helped not one person in anyway. He is about the last person I would want running a country. I can’t figure out for the life of me why he has such a big following.
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An Attorney: If you were saying it to me, which you apparently lack the courage to do, it is an insult. I have also read a book or two. Bragging about your degrees doesn’t establish the truth of the propositions you have asserted.
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Daisy,
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(Matthew 28:19)
The Great Commission. We who are Christians have a command to tell our beliefs and what Jesus did for us on the cross. Our supreme sacrifice died and rose from the dead overcoming death and the grave. What good news.
I have had Jehovah’s Witness coworkers–they got angry when we would celebrate birthday’s, Christmas or anything else like being closed on Christmas and New Year’s Day or Thanksgiving. They didn’t try to convert anyone at work. I couldn’t figure why being JW was so great if they were angry over everything. There is often JW literature in the laundry room in my apartment building. I’ve read it before, but wasn’t impressed. I know several Mormon’s that are clients where I work. They don’t try to convert us but are very nice giving people. My boss has gone to their (church? not sure if that is what they call it) to meet people and has said no one talks to him of even looks up at him. I don’t know what that is all about.
There are Christians in persecution in this world, missionaries and preachers being jailed and martyred for the sake of Jesus. People converting to Christianity in countries where their own families will try to kill them. This persecution is coming to America little by little. We are called “haters or phobic” if we say what we believe to be sin or against God’s will. We don’t hate people, but are saying what we know to be true. Others don’t have to believe it, but pray they will. It’s a choice, just like everything else.
I choose to believe that the founders of America had good intentions when they wrote the first official documents and then walked the path to the local church to pray for our country.
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Brenda R: For most of the Framers of the Constitution, as well as the Founders, the God they invoked and prayed to was the Christian God.
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I posted this over on the other thread; it seems to fit better here:
I have no idea which of our Founding Fathers were Christian, & which were not. Honestly, its not high on my list of things to wonder about.
The only thing I have to contribute in this regard is:
My grandmother used to tell a story about a man in the little Free Methodist Church that she & my grandfather belonged to. This guy would come in every Sunday & Wednesday night carrying the newspaper. He read out loud from the obituaries, ending each one by saying, “and he went to hell”. Or, if he approved of the person, “and he went to Heaven”.
My grandfather got well & truly sick of it. Finally, he stood up, & said, “Brother [Name Deleted], when did God make you His Director of Admissions? Because I never read about it in MY Bible.”
The guy never did it again……
Sometimes, we just have to entrust the souls of those who pass on, to the wisdom of the One Who created them. I suspect, though, that there are going to be a lot of surprises. For all of us, but especially for those whose theology is just a little too *&!@ pat.
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zooey111: I love that story! “Director of Admissions”…your grandfather must have been really something!
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Keith, If i see it, I deal with it. Since going bavk to school full-time, there is no full-time moderator around here and you are going to notice that I miss stuff. I hope you can work with that.
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Julie Anne: Would you tell me who insulted whom?
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Yesterday at 1:53 P.M.?
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No, Keith, if I sense a tone that seems like it’s getting personal, I issue a reminder. If everyone heeds the guidelines, we’ll be fine. I dont have time to search through posts to name an individual.
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Not even going to look, Keith. Please stop wasting my time. It’s a blog disruption.
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JA: That was rather callous. You dismiss my concern and say I am ‘wasting your time”. At least I care enough to comment on your blog. In fact, what you just wrote is pretty mean.
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Keith,
For most of the Framers of the Constitution, as well as the Founders, the God they invoked and prayed to was the Christian God.
I agree. Did I say something that made you think otherwise?
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Brenda R: No, I was agreeing with you.
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Keith,
Ok. I was confused.
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Seems to me that questions have gone unanswered by commenters on many threads, even questions directed to specific commenters. It happens, intentionally or not.
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Keith, that was your last post on criticizing me or the moderating. Add any more, and all of your comments will be in moderation.
Really, the rules are simple, be kind and respectful, not personal. That’s all. Earlier, you posted a note to An Attorney saying that if he said “fill in the blank” to you, then it was an insult. In that comment, you read something and took it personally. That is the kind of personal comments that I am talking about. I’m trying to keep insulting comments off the blog. I really think we’re on the same page, Keith. Now, please let’s get back to the topic.
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Double standard.
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You’re now in moderation, Keith.
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Ours is not a Christian nation. The only grouping of peoples that can legitimately claim to be Christian is the Kingdom of God, referred to in Matthew as the Kingdom of Heaven.
Historically, our political leaders have appealed to Christianity, as the dominant religion, in the pursuit of that legitimacy which is necessary to the wielding of power. In return, the secular authorities have yielded to those who would wield their religion as a coercive tool. As Christianity recedes as the dominant religion, the state, in its continuing pursuit of legitimacy and power, increasingly yields to the demands of the old but resurgent gods of material well being, pleasure and power.
The modern prophets of the these resurgent gods include Karl Marx, Hugh Hefner and Niccolo Machiavelli. Make no mistake about it. While there are, of course, individual exceptions, our current politicians are in thrall to the causes of all three prophets. Even in this, our Lord’s purposes are served. We Christians are increasingly compelled to recognize the necessity of winning our neighbors with love, abandoning all thought of resorting to the coercive powers of the state — or even of organized “church.”
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Ed:
“Everyone around the world KNOWS that we are a Christian nation. That is no secret. Why is it so hard for our own people to admit it?”
Huh. Interesting that you say that. I don’t think that at all. I think that we are a melting pot nation that welcomes all (On the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”) It doesn’t say, “…as long as they are Christian.”
It might be the viewpoint of a Christian, who associates primarily (or only?) with Christians, that we are a Christian nation. (Remember, a fish can only ask, “what is water?”) But if you have more conversations with people like me, you might not only see that America consists of a huge, glorious melting pot of different faiths and beliefs, you might also actually find some of those faiths and beliefs interesting and worthy of your curiosity. Or not — it’s up to you.
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“The United States was founded on Christian principles” and “we are a Christian Nation” are two distinct claims that would be better discussed separately.
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Hmmm? Re: Is Christmas a Christian holiday?
Well, a couple of weeks ago while Christmas Shopping…
I wound up talking to a Satan Worshipper, who was dyslexic…
Who was also Christmas Shopping…
I asked him why, if he Worshipped Satan, was he Christmas Shopping?
He said, I believe I have to do Christmas Shopping…
Ever since I sold my soul – To Santa…;-)
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Ed, you posted:
“I think the question needs to be in this: Why are atheists taking away my rights as a Christian? What used to be Christian TRADITION is being changed, all because someone gets offended. So, you wanna talk about rights? Really? Christians do not have the right to very much these days. All because someone is yelling and screaming that we are not a Christian nation and they have rights. Well, you know what? Christians are losing rights, day by day, all because of YOUR rights.
That’s how my freedom differs from yours. I don’t have the right or the freedom that I used to…IN MY OWN LIFETIME, to worship God the way that I see fit, based on my conscience, because YOUR side is taking my rights away. The ACLU is on every single case against Christianity TRADITION. Then there is that whack job REVEREND Barry Lyn, I think his name is, that is on the team of Freedom FROM Religion (Not freedom of, in this case, either), and his team is like the ACLU fighting against Christian TRADITIONS.
Rights, huh? Ya, OK then.”
First, breathe. I’d like to see our dialog as a respectful conversation. Hope you do too. My focus is in understanding your viewpoint, not changing it.
You say, “So, you wanna talk about rights? Really? Christians do not have the right to very much these days. All because someone is yelling and screaming that we are not a Christian nation and they have rights. Well, you know what? Christians are losing rights, day by day, all because of YOUR rights.”
Equal rights means the SAME rights for Christians as for anyone else. That is a primary premise of what it means to live in America – equal rights. That means that if your kid can gather friends in a classroom of a public school for Bible study, mine can do the same with his friends to discuss the premise that there is no god. That means that a group who wants to build a mosque down the street should be treated exactly the same, by the government and its citizens, as the group who wants to build a church. That means that, fundamentally, we don’t call America a “Christian nation,” but rather, a “melting pot” nation that welcomes people of all religions (and no religion) equally. Realistically, that doesn’t happen because some forget the fundamental premise of the plaque on the Statue of Liberty and have come to believe that this is THEIR nation and that, for some reason, THEY are more important.
I don’t want anything but EQUAL rights, Ed. I do not want to take your rights away. Nor do I want to take a Jew’s or a Buddhist’s rights away. Your rights as a Christian American should be equal to my rights as an atheist American. No more, no less – simply equal. To be honest, I have to be very careful to say that I am atheist in most circumstances, as the reaction is not always kind. My guess is that I run into unkindness because I am an atheist more often than you do because you are a Christian.
As far as traditions, carry on. No one wants to take your traditions away. They simply don’t want yours to infringe upon or supersede mine. And that seems fair, in this melting pot nation called America that we both love, doesn’t it?
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carolsnider said
I’m not entirely sure what this is in reference to, I was commenting on what chapmaned was saying. Maybe I misunderstood him.
He seemed to be commenting on or wondering why there is so much fighting over public expression of religion, especially in public schools.
I was thinking it’s probably not most school kids who get worked up over it, but their parents.
(But I do think some kids are naturally interested in topics like God and religion, I was when I was a kid. Ed kept saying he’s dubious that any kid would take interest in God over toys, games, and dating, but some in fact do.)
I wasn’t thinking about a particular incident with your son when I wrote all that. I’d have to go back and re read what you said about your son again, because I don’t remember that part very well.
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Carolsnider said,
“Right up to the point that they step onto my property.”
My point is that winning converts is just part of some people’s religious beliefs. To insist that all the religious folk keep their religion totally in private at all times is unrealistic and bigoted in its own way.
Hey, I don’t like being approached by JW’s (Jehovah’s Witnesses) at home (and I have been in the past), and they want to share their beliefs with me, but I don’t get teed off by it.
If an atheist wanted to go door to door to talk with me, and hand me an atheist tract, I would find that on the same level as the JW – annoying but meh, it’s America, freedom of speech and all that.
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Satan. Santa. Dyslexia.
Good morning Amos. I forgive you.
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Gary W
“Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
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Retha said,
That is assuming that Hinduism and Islam are poison, while Christianity is the healthy food, which is what your analogy is saying, and I would bet that adherents of Islam and Hinduism would find that very insulting.
Muslims believe that Christianity is a false religion. Their dome of the rock in Israel has the words “God has no son” inscribed on it. So, would you want a Muslim teaching your Christian kids (if you had them) that sort of thing? Probably not.
I’m fine with teachers praying or reading the New Testament on their lunch breaks at work, by the way, but if you mean during class?
That is where the can or worms gets opened. If Christian Teacher gets to read the Bible during class, you would have to allow Muslim Teacher to read the Hadiths, or the Mormon guy to read from The Pearl Of Great Price during class.
Like Julie Anne said originally, I would not object to a religion survey class, where kids get to study this stuff from an academic perspective, but out side of that, it becomes problematic.
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My favorite is when someone pines for the good ol’ days back when they were a kid and everyone was wonderful and godly. They’re usually referring the 50s or 60s. Of course, such a person is always white and apparently segregation, denying a race the ability to vote, lynchings, firehoses, etc. weren’t really so bad….well, at least if you were white.
We are not a Christian nation. Many of those who vehemently argue that point really are arguing for a theocracy. No, they won’t use that word and they’ll deny they want a theocracy. However, it’s essentially a semantics game. I provide an example of such thinking in the case of Alabama’s Roy Moore (head to Wikipedia for a run down). He’s a judge that has often flouted the law if he felt God would want it a different way. He was thrown out of office, but (not shockingly) thanks to judges being elected in AL, he was later overwhelmingly elected to be AL Chief Justice. Read his reasoning on the wikipedia page and see if it doesn’t sound like theocracy. Large numbers of people love him. It’s honestly disturbing to see when you consider where such thinking could lead.
However, this thread does give some insight into what a government controlled by such people would look like. Your opinion or feelings are not considered unless you provide sufficient evidence….and (spoiler alert) no amount of evidence is sufficient. Facts lose their meaning. You must answer on their terms, and any deviation means you’re weak and you’re wrong. Plus, you’ll never meet their terms anyway. Those that have no issues declaring most loudly, confidently, and intimidatingly that “this is how it is” and “thus saith the Lord” (even in very gray areas) are happy to browbeat everyone else into submission. “So, sit down, be quiet, and do what we say so we can start pleasing God!”
Sounds like fun, doesn’t it?
Plus, I don’t believe God has “had” a nation since the dawn of the Christian age, but then that opens a whole dispensational can of worms.
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Getting back to Carolsniders post, this comment,
I’m sorry if your son was upset or confused by that message, but that is Christianity 101.
The Bible teaches humanity needs a savior, and hell for those who don’t accept that salvation via that one savior, is the destination, because people’s sin separate them from God.
This teaching applies to every person on the planet (according to the Bible), so that your son is not being singled out here, as though he’s somehow worse than his Christian buddies who shared this message with him.
If mankind did not need a savior (according to the Bible), Jesus Christ would not have needed to die on the cross.
The Bible also says that this message will sound deeply offensive to most people who hear it.
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A.Amos Love said:
“Hmmm? Re: Is Christmas a Christian holiday?
Well, a couple of weeks ago while Christmas Shopping…
I wound up talking to a Satan Worshipper, who was dyslexic…
Who was also Christmas Shopping…”
How does one meet someone in a store and get this sort of information? Who would tell a stranger, “I am a satan worshipper. And I am also dyslexic”?? How does such a conversation come about? When I meet strangers in a store, the conversation is more along the lines of, “I love this brand. I have four of them.” “Cool, good to know. I’ll buy it and try it!” OR – “your baby is so cute! How old?” “6 months tomorrow.”
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“Well, a couple of weeks ago while Christmas Shopping…
I wound up talking to a Satan Worshipper, who was dyslexic…
Who was also Christmas Shopping…
I asked him why, if he Worshipped Satan, was he Christmas Shopping?
He said, I believe I have to do Christmas Shopping…
Ever since I sold my soul – To Santa…;-)”
Oh, I get it! It was a joke! He was a SANTA worshiper!
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Amos,
Well, we know that Peter, at least, was required to forgive seventy times seven times. But then I suppose that just opens a whole can of worms about the keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and loose.
Actually, while I say I forgive you, I suppose the reality is that I am attempting to cover my envy by not-so-obliquely suggesting you occupy a lower moral plane. Please forgive me.
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Hi carolsnider
You ask…
“How does one meet someone in a store and get this sort of information?”
NO joke…
Spiritual discerment…
1Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.
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Gary, the Bible says forgiving each other is a good thing under the New Covenant: “Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.” Colossians 3:13.
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Carolsnider said,
You misunderstood me.
I’ve been saying for two pages of threads that either public schools let everyone read their religion’s holy book during school hours, and hold after school religious clubs, or nobody gets to do any of it.
I’ve also been saying for two pages that even if our nation was originally founded as a “Christian” one (and I guess a case could be made that it does have Christian roots), we are no longer Christian, but are post-Christian or secular.
Ergo, Christians, and my fellow Republicans / social conservatives may want to stop it with the culture wars, as it’s a waste of time and money on their end.
Another point of mine, which is where I think you got confused, is this:
There is hypocrisy at work though in allowing religion or not allowing it in public schools, because secular groups and liberals will tip toe around the sensitivities of Muslims, Wiccans, atheists, etc., but not permit Christian kids the same freedom.
In some public schools, as was reported in the newspapers a few years ago (I think this was California), all kids of all backgrounds have been forced to do things like recite Muslim prayers in class to learn about Islam. One class wanted to have the girls were the Muslim burqa or something, too.
Would these same schools ever allow a Christian to lead all kids in that same class in a Christian prayer ending in the phrase “in Jesus’ name we ask”? Heck no.
I could not find a secular, moderate news outlet that reported on this in a brief search (I’m sure they are out there), but the facts are the same (when this story first came out, I saw it on news sites like CNN, ABC, NBC, etc):
_Judge Rules Islamic Education OK in California Classrooms_
Again, my view is that either everyone gets to teach their religion during school hours or nobody does.
But, when groups ARE permitted to flaunt their religion, the secular / ACLU / left wingers almost always exempt the NonChristian ones.
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Tim, I find that forgiving is really, really, hard.
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miss daisyflower said:
“Getting back to Carolsniders post, this comment,
He was wholly unprepared, emotionally, for what he heard and couldn’t figure out why his friends were telling him he’d go to this awful place simply because he didn’t believe in God. (It wasn’t even that he didn’t believe; he was more just void of any specific belief about God, one way or another…being eight.)
I’m sorry if your son was upset or confused by that message, but that is Christianity 101.
The Bible teaches humanity needs a savior, and hell for those who don’t accept that salvation via that one savior, is the destination, because people’s sin separate them from God.
This teaching applies to every person on the planet (according to the Bible), so that your son is not being singled out here, as though he’s somehow worse than his Christian buddies who shared this message with him.
If mankind did not need a savior (according to the Bible), Jesus Christ would not have needed to die on the cross.
The Bible also says that this message will sound deeply offensive to most people who hear it.”
Then my kid should be able to tell your kid that there is no god and no heaven. I’m sorry if your kid is confused by that message, but that is atheism 101. Richard Dawkins teaches that god doesn’t exist and there is no heaven. This teaching applies to every person on the planet, because it is based in science, so your child isn’t being singled out, as though he’s somehow worse than his atheist buddies who shared this message with him. Richard Dawkins is aware that this message will sound deeply offensive to most people who hear it.”
See how this works?
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Personally, I think that people are Christians not a nation or philosophy or book store. We were a nation who paid lip service to the New Testament by pass laws to benefit those in power in the name of “Christianity.”
True Christianity is individuals submitting to God. Christians choose obeying Him, showing love, goodness, mercy and kindness even as they are persecuted and hated. That can’t be legislated.
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I hope everyone got y meaning in my last post (JANUARY 16, 2015 @ 8:59 AM), I think I worked it funny.
In schools where children are permitted to practice their faith or teach about it during school hours, or the teachers are allowed to do so, every case I’ve seen in the news so far, every religion is allowed to do this except for the Christians.
There is a double standard, where all other religions or atheism are allowed to be expressed, practiced, encouraged, or taught in schools during school hours, but Christianity is usually the only belief system that is not permitted.
That was what I was trying to say.
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“Hi carolsnider
You ask…
“How does one meet someone in a store and get this sort of information?”
NO joke…
Spiritual discerment…
1Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.”
??? So you actually met a shopper who was a stranger and that person said to you in conversation, “I am a Satan worshiper… and also dyslexic”?? I must admit, I am impressed at how you can bring this sort of information out of a stranger. How is that done?
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Carolsnider said,
Carol, I’m not threatened, nor particularly offended, by hearing other people’s religious views. You seem to be.
If I had children, I would raise them to be like I am and not take instant offense to other people sharing their beliefs, even if they differ from mine.
I already understand Dawkin’s position on a few topics. I think Dawkins has a right to tell me about them, to write about them, share them on the internet. He can come to my front door to hand me an atheist tract, if he wants to, and I would not explode in indignation.
I don’t have a problem with people (adults) expressing their religious views outside of public schools, during their free time, such as Mormons who want to go door to door to talk to me about their faith.
I don’t even find atheism per se offensive, only that some militant atheists are just as condescending, dogmatic, and rude as the Christian fundamentalists they complain about.
I have a feeling you’ve not read some of my posts above.
I also don’t think you realize I’m not completely Christian anymore, but I am not an atheist. I’m more agnostic, maybe a little Christian.
But your post seemed to indicate that you do not understand Christianity – the bible teaches that all humanity needs a savior, this applies even to the Christians who are sharing that message with you or your son. That’s just how they believe, no reason to take it like it’s a personal affront.
I don’t take it as a personal insult when atheists such as Dawkins tells me his belief set is that there is no God, and he thinks I evolved from slime millions of years ago, etc. That’s just his belief, and he’s welcome to it.
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missdaisyflower said:
“I hope everyone got y meaning in my last post (JANUARY 16, 2015 @ 8:59 AM), I think I worked it funny.
In schools where children are permitted to practice their faith or teach about it during school hours, or the teachers are allowed to do so, every case I’ve seen in the news so far, every religion is allowed to do this except for the Christians.
There is a double standard, where all other religions or atheism are allowed to be expressed, practiced, encouraged, or taught in schools during school hours, but Christianity is usually the only belief system that is not permitted.
That was what I was trying to say.”
If these are public schools, none of this would be allowed, period. Teachers can be severely reprimanded for teaching ANY religion, other than factual information about various world religions, as in a social studies class.
Perhaps the situation was that a teacher was providing information about religions OTHER than Christianity, as part of the curriculum (which is allowed) because most of the kids in the classroom were Christians or already knew about Christianity. That does seem reasonable.
My husband grew up Catholic and learned plenty about Catholicism in catechism and in church, but knew NOTHING about other world religions because his parents chose not to teach him those things. The only place he COULD learn facts about other world religions was in school. I, on the other hand, grew up in (or rather, occasionally went to) the Unitarian church (in Berkeley, in the 60s…!), where our Sunday school classes taught us specifically about other religions and their beliefs. I remember a coloring book with Jesus on one page and Confucius (?) on another. In my childhood naivety, I believed that all children learned about world religions.
Would be a good thing, yes? (Kind of like giving a child a whole box of fifty different colored crayons and saying “Choose the one you want,” as opposed to giving them a box of fifty “burnt sienna” crayons and saying “Choose the one you want.”)
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missdaisyflower said:
“Carolsnider said,
“Then my kid should be able to tell your kid that there is no god and no heaven. I’m sorry if your kid is confused by that message, but that is atheism 101. Richard Dawkins teaches that god doesn’t exist and there is no heaven. This teaching applies to every person on the planet, because it is based in science, so your child isn’t being singled out, as though he’s somehow worse than his atheist buddies who shared this message with him. Richard Dawkins is aware that this message will sound deeply offensive to most people who hear it.”
See how this works?”
Carol, I’m not threatened, nor particularly offended, by hearing other people’s religious views. You seem to be.”
Not at all. I was making a point.
You said, earlier, in reference to my son being told by his friends that he was going to hell because he wasn’t Christian:
“I’m sorry if your son was upset or confused by that message, but that is Christianity 101.
The Bible teaches humanity needs a savior, and hell for those who don’t accept that salvation via that one savior, is the destination, because people’s sin separate them from God.
This teaching applies to every person on the planet (according to the Bible), so that your son is not being singled out here, as though he’s somehow worse than his Christian buddies who shared this message with him.”
This came across to me (correct me if I’m wrong) as you explaining why his friends’ behavior wasn’t all THAT awful, implying that they were simply following the teachings of their faith, which you explained quite nicely.
My point was that my son could do the exact same thing to your son, and I could say that my son’s behavior isn’t all THAT awful, as he was simply explaining what atheists believe and trying to follow the teachings of his (lack of) religion.
The point is that when you’re on the receiving end of BOTH of these, it’s seen as offensive. Yes?
I hope this makes more sense to you now. I am not at all threatened or offended by your religious views, nor do I want or expect you to convert to mine. UNDERSTANDING and RESPECTING each other is my hope and goal.
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Brenda R said,
Yes, I’ve seen or read about his comment that abused women should endure abuse for a season.
Piper has also said other weird things about women, where he wants to limit what they may do and when and where.
He thinks women who work out at gyms are too muscular and hence not feminine, which he seems to feel is un-biblical.
He doesn’t think women should give driving directions to lost men in cars, unless they are very feminine in how they do so.
He thinks women on dates should not defend her boyfriend from an attacker, even if the woman is a karate expert, because that would deflate the BF’s male ego.
Piper thinks that women should not read the Bible and/or theology books in front of men, but that it might be acceptable for a woman to read aloud in the next room, where the man cannot see her.
So you could see if John Piper ran America, or got politicians in place who agree with him on these things, he might want to limit what women may or may not do.
Ditto and even more so with guys like Mark Driscoll, Al Mohler, etc, they would probably make it illegal for women to hold jobs outside the home, attend college (unless it was to major in home making courses), etc, and they would exempt their own daughters, of course.
They want other men’s daughters to marry by the age of 23, have ten kids, never go to college, etc.
(Well, I could see a guy like Driscoll making his own daughters abide by those rules and lifestyle choices, too, that he wants for all other woman, but guys like Al Mohler already exempt his daughter from them.)
BrendaR said,
That reminds me of tele-evangelist Benny Hinn, who takes missions trips to Hawaii, Cancun, and other lush, tropical areas. You know they are just vacations to him, but he writes them off as being work related, for Jesus.
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Hi again carolsnider
I’ve appreciated your comments, your wisdom, and your tone..
And it really was a joke… 🙂
But, it’s also true, I have met Satan Worshippers, Witches, and Atheists,
While living life, shopping, or hanging out in Barnes & Nobles…
Some have bumper stickers on their cars…
Some wear jewelry or tattoos, commemorating their beliefs…
Sometimes it’s just through conversation when I meet new folks…
I’ve seen Jesus heal many broken hearts, mine included…
And, I often wind up working with folks who have broken hearts…
And sickness and disease caused by a broken heart…
So, it doesn’t take long, an hour, a day or two, after meeting someone new…
When you find out life has NOT been fair to them…
Someone they cared about, loved, has abandoned them, rejected them…
Taken advantage of them, lied to them, lied about them…
Abused them physically, emotionally, spiritually…
And their heart has hardened… and NOT at ease…
And when their heart remains at Dis—Ease long enough…
It often results in Disease…
And Jesus came to heal the broken hearted…
And I’ve never met anyone who has escaped a broken heart…
Was wondering…
How did you become an “atheist?”
If you do NOT want to talk about it that’s okay.
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miss daisyflower said:
“I don’t even find atheism per se offensive, only that some militant atheists are just as condescending, dogmatic, and rude as the Christian fundamentalists they complain about.”
Oh, I TOTALLY AGREE!
I promise, I get just as upset when my “militant atheist” son is insulting to others’ religions, and I cite yet AGAIN for him the Golden Rule.
He is “militant” about science, objectivity, and reason, insisting that people’s belief systems should be based on those factors, not on faith — to which I vehemently defend those who find warm, comfort, and a life basis in their religions! My whole thing is, believe what you will, with your whole heart, and find joy and sustenance in it. Just don’t try to foist it upon others who don’t welcome it. I say that as vehemently to my son as I say it to fundamentalist Christians.
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Carolsnider said
You’re coming across as though you find it very offensive or troubling if or when a person who does not share your views talks to your kid or to you, and no, I am not getting that.
So no, I don’t think the kid’s behavior is all that wrong or bad and have no idea why this upsets you so.
I would expect a Mormon kid to tell a Christian kid that Christian kid is not making it to the Upper Levels of Mormon Heaven when he dies, unless he converts to Mormonism.
I would expect an Atheist kid to tell a theist Jewish kid there is no God.
So no, I don’t think it’s a big deal or awful when adults of a faith share their beliefs with another adult, or a kid shares his beliefs with another kid.
Here is where we differ. If I had kids, I would not be offended with someone sharing their views with my kid (depending on the time, place).
When I was a kid growing up, I was interested in other people’s beliefs, not threatened nor offended by them.
I used to attend school with a Jewish classmate, and I used to ask her (out of curiousity) on bus rides home, about her religious beliefs, and her family’s religious holidays, and she would tell me. This was when I was in 4th or 5th grade.
A kid telling another kid on a playground about atheism, Jesus, Allah, Richard Dawkins, is not, IMO, a reason to get worked up, in a tiff, or be offended.
If I had a kid, and my kid was a theist, and Atheist kid talked to my kid about atheism on the playground, and came home from school and said,
“Mom, this kid talked to me about atheism today, I have some questions,” I would use that as a teaching opportunity, not get angry that some kid at the playground shared an alternate view.
Your kid is going to go to college one day and be exposed to other religious views, in classes and from dorm room mates on personal time, etc, so I don’t see a lot of point in sheltering him or her when they are 8 and in 4th grade.
If, however, those 4th grade kids go into a public school classroom, where, during school hours, a teacher forces all those kids to agree with the tenets of Islam, makes the girls dress in burkas, or has all the kids pray to Allah, or agree with books by Richard Dawkins, that is where I start to have an issue.
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Carolsinder, I never said that being atheist in and of itself makes a person a “militant” atheist, but you seem to be implying that in your post.
My ex-BIL is an atheist, but he was not of the militant variety.
Ex-BIL was respectful of my Christian faith to me during the years I was a full Christian, and he was polite to me. He did not treat me as though I am stupid, irrational, or inferior just because I believed in a deity.
Your “New Atheists,” however, tend to be radicalized and militant. They are dogmatic and condescending quite often.
You said,
Just don’t try to foist it upon others who don’t welcome it. I say that as vehemently to my son as I say it to fundamentalist Christians.
You son has a right to share his atheist views with others, politely, if he so chooses.
A Christian telling your son about Jesus on the playground is not in the same league as militant Muslims in ISIS in the Middle East who decapitate non-Muslims for refusing to convert.
A person sharing their beliefs with you, by trying to chat with you in public, at your front door, on the internet, whether that person be atheist, Christian, Mormon, Jewish, Muslims, is not necessarily “foisting.”
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I messed up with the italics in my post above. They should have ended at the phrase, “say it to fundamentalist Christians.”
Everything after that were my comments.
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BrendaR Re: JANUARY 16, 2015 @ 5:34 AM
I agree with much of your post there.
You said,
I’ve read some of the ex-JW blogs and sites. They are taught their salvation is works-based, IIRC (it’s been a few year since I’ve read their stuff).
They have to spend so many hours going door to door, handing out Watchtower tracts, etc. The exJWs say it’s very grueling, exhausting work to be a JW (again, according to ex JW testimonies, so however accurate they are being on that who knows).
My guess is that JWs are grouchy because they are working hard to be saved but are not seeing any sort of benefit in this life time. Just a guess.
I used to get JWs visiting one place I lived in down south. As a kid, in one state we lived in up north, they used to visit our house there. My sister, who lives in another southern state, used to get visited by Mormons at her home.
I don’t know why my sister got Mormons, and the rest of the family kept getting JWs. 🙂
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A.amos Love said:
“Was wondering…
How did you become an “atheist?”
If you do NOT want to talk about it that’s okay.”
You seem to have a way of meeting people and striking up friendly (I assume) conversations with them! That is a gift!
As far as how I “became an atheist,” well, I’d say more that people BECOME religious as opposed to people BECOMING atheist. A baby knows nothing about any god, any religion, any belief system until they are *taught one.* In India that child is taught the Hindu religion. In Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, that child is taught Islam. In Israel, that child is taught Judaism. If you, being the same person you are, were born and raised in any of these countries, chances are extremely high that you wouldn’t be a Christian Why? Because you were *taught* to be a Christian, both by your parents (presumably) and by the culture in which you live.
What about the child who is born into a family that doesn’t teach him (or in this case, her) anything about religion other than the facts about a *variety* of world religions including, but not limited to, Christianity? What religious beliefs, if any, does that person come to have? The ones that he or she chooses after exploring what she’s learned!
In exploring world religions, I came to see that almost all believe that they, and they alone, know the “true” god. Almost all believe that their religion is the “correct” one — and they go to war over that belief, century after century after century. (Have you ever seen a group of atheists go to war to convince others of their lack of belief in god?!)
In realizing that, I came to believe that the one “religion” that seems to be true always is simply treating others with love and compassion – no matter what their religious beliefs. For me, the Golden Rule sums it up nicely: treat others, of all religions, colors, sexual persuasions, nationalities, abilities, etc. the way I want to be treated. That seems to me to be the best world view. It is not dependent on any god, any dogma, any church, any book. Rather, it is simply love and acceptance of others, withholding judgement until I get to know them. (And then, yes, I do sometimes judge — an asshole is an asshole, no matter what his/her religion or color…)
And that is how I “became” an atheist.
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OK. Leaving again.
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missdaisyflower said:
” You’re coming across as though you find it very offensive or troubling if or when a person who does not share your views talks to your kid or to you, and no, I am not getting that.
So no, I don’t think the kid’s behavior is all that wrong or bad and have no idea why this upsets you so.” (And much more)
I appreciate and actually agree with almost your entire post! It IS expected that children express their own beliefs. My problem came from the lack of sensitivity the children showed to my son. They were not bullying him, per se. These were his friends describing hell as a horrific and scary place where non-Christians go – the way it had been explained to them. And that terrified my son.
My problem was that who ever taught these kids about hell neglected to also teach them that not all people believe in it and so to be gentle and respectful when they go into the world, as it IS a scary, horrible place. It is a BELIEF and not an objectively real place that one can go and collect soil and air samples (to bring the point further), so it would have just been nice if those kids would have been taught to present it as such. (“In MY religion…”)
Maybe, actually, (as I ponder this further) *I* should have taught my son about hell as some religions see it. Had he been prepared, it probably wouldn’t have been so terrifying – and I/we (parents) bear the responsibility for some of that.
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Carolsinder said to Ed,
There is some truth to that, but….
I do think nations who have a large percentage of radical Muslims think of the USA as a Christian nation.
It’s my understanding that one reason some of the radical Muslims detest America is that we are regarded by them as being Christian (we are seen by them as being a nation of “infidels”) – that, and our nation usually is allied with Israel.
Or was, before Obama administration began snubbing them. 🙂
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Carolsnider said,
I don’t know of a gentle way a Christian can discuss hell with anyone.
Jesus Christ described the afterlife for those who reject him as being a pretty awful place.
(You have Christians, usually the very liberally theological guys, who deny that there is even a Hell, by the way – I disagree with those guys.
You have the ones who say there is no hell, and these may be the same guys, who think everyone goes to Heaven, I think they are called “universalists.”
I don’t see universalism as being in the Bible, so I’d disagree with that too.)
You can also view some of this from a positive framework, rather than all negative.
While the whole hell thing is pretty negative sounding, the flip side of the Gospel coin is that if someone believes in Jesus, they go to live with God in the afterlife, which the Bible describes as being a wonderful, peaceful place.
I kind of get the impression that you and I were talking past each other.
I do agree with much of the stuff you were saying in your posts and maybe only slightly disagree on one or two points.
At the same time, I agree with some of what chapmaned has been saying. I can see both sides of some issues, including the ones we’ve been discussing in this thread. It’s hard for me to always come down fully on one side or another. 🙂
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Re A. Amos Love JANUARY 16, 2015 @ 8:25 AM
To some, Satan is known as “Satin.” That is, with the letter “i.”
Usually typed that way by very angry Christian fundamentalists when they get upset in an online debate, you will see them type “Satan” as “SatIn.” Which makes for all sorts of great fabric related jokes.
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Miss Daisy Flower said, “I don’t know of a gentle way a Christian can discuss hell with anyone.”
Shortly before I came to faith in Christ a new friend told me “A lot of nice guys are going to hell, Tim.” She said it gently and straightforwardly. It hit me right between the eyes, but she was not at all offensive in how she said it.
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Why might the Golden Rule be preferable over religious doctrine? Well, because of things like this.
http://www.queerty.com/colorado-pastor-halts-funeral-15-minutes-in-because-deceased-was-a-lesbian-20150114?utm_source=bb82&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=pastor-halts-funeral
So sad.
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missdaisyflower said:
“Carolsinder said to Ed,
Huh. Interesting that you say that. I don’t think that at all. I think that we are a melting pot nation that welcomes all
There is some truth to that, but….
I do think nations who have a large percentage of radical Muslims think of the USA as a Christian nation.”
You’re right there! Too bad they don’t see us as a melting pot with a variety of religious beliefs. We’d certainly be less of a target if they did.
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missdaisyflower said:
“I kind of get the impression that you and I were talking past each other.
I do agree with much of the stuff you were saying in your posts and maybe only slightly disagree on one or two points.
At the same time, I agree with some of what chapmaned has been saying. I can see both sides of some issues, including the ones we’ve been discussing in this thread. It’s hard for me to always come down fully on one side or another.”
Agreed! 🙂
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I’ve seen two or three people talk about the USA as being “God’s nation,” in this thread, when, and depending on how nit picky you want to get about it, I think the Bible only declares Israel to be God’s nation.
True, we are under grace today, but, seeing how God dealt with Israel in Old Testament days when they disobeyed him, (God could get quite harsh with them – that’s a vast under-statement), do you really want to live in “God’s nation” ? Are you really sure about that?
People in that nation (ancient Israel, in OT times) could get stoned to death for breaking religious or criminal laws, or, God permitted their nation to be taken off into captivity when they broke rules. It’s not all peaches and cream being “God’s nation.”
If you’re just arguing that the USA was founded with Christian principles in mind, or that the founders respected the Christian faith, I guess I can agree with that much of it.
But when you look at what it meant for Israel to be “God’s nation,” it can make you stop reflect.
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J Pow said,
I am a social conservative, but this has worn thin with me the last few years, that other social conservatives keep romanticizing the 1950s, but to borrow a phrase I saw earlier on this thread, that genie is out of the bottle and not going back, so I do wish they would let that go and move on already.
I don’t know why other social conservatives and Christians don’t deal with how our nation is now and help people where they are, rather than spending 70% of their time complaining about how things aren’t like they used to be, and spending the remainder 30% fondly reminiscing about 1950s culture and nuclear families.
A lady at the other blog who went to college during the 1950s was trying to assure the rest of us that the 1950s were not limiting to women, that secular / left wing feminists have really distorted what that decade was really like.
I’m not usually on board with secular/left wing feminists on a lot of topics, but on that one, I don’t know.
I don’t think the 50s were the gender equality mecca that the lady was trying to make it sound like, despite her anecdotal point about her getting a college degree during that era.
Yes, women could attend college even then, but it seems to me there was a ton of church and societal pressure for women to be deferential to men, marry young, stay at home, raise children.
(And that same pressure continues in much of conservative Christianity today -older, childless, never married ladies like me are ignored or else treated as though we are failures.
When I say “older,” btw, I don’t mean “elderly,” but anyone who is single over 30 years of age)
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J Pow said,
This gets back to what I said on page 1 of the thread.
I respect the Christian faith and think Christians have a right to get into the political process (just as much as anyone else does), they have a right, or it’s okay, IMO, for them to publicly express their faith, and so on, but…
Not all Christians define the Christian faith the same way, which is where it can get creepy.
For the Christians who are arguing that we live in a Christian nation, or that they want us to live in a Christian nation, which type of Christian gets to define what type of Christianity we are talking about that everyone should live under?
Some of the types of Christians Julie Anne covers on this blog don’t believe women should attend college, or that a woman can pick who she wants to marry (they teach that a woman has to have her father do that), etc. etc.
If these guys had their way, I do believe they would try to chip away at some of my rights because I am a woman.
Some of the Christian extremists on gender roles have very peculiar and backwards beliefs about what they think the Bible says women can and cannot do.
In their own communities and churches, they are already shaming and limiting women -on their blogs, in pod casts, and in conferences – from having jobs, being single, limiting the number of children they have (if they are married), not allowing women to teach in churches, and so forth.
There was a thing in the papers in the late 1990s that was a minor scandal where the SBC, or some conservative church guy, said that day care was bad for children
If memory serves me, he taught that all women should stay at home and be a SAHM, rather than put their children into day care.
(Why not be critical of fathers who have kids in day care? Why do these guys always pick on women for this stuff?)
I was even more conservative back then when that controversy broke (and a total Christian) than I am now, and I had problems with views like that back then. Some women cannot financially afford to be a SAHM, even if they wish they could be one.
But some of my fellow social conservatives, and some Christians, don’t want to let facts stand in their way.
It’s more important that everyone fits their view of what biblical, proper life, or gender roles are, much like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Guys like that would probably pass legislation to make it tougher for women to have jobs, because they think a proper, biblical place for women is to stay at home.
Not all social conservative or Christian people are like that, but there is a strain of them out there, and I don’t want to live under laws and policies they determine.
(Not that I am thrilled with very left wing types, either, because I think they have their own batch of issues.)
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I sincerely doubt that. “You are clever with deflections.”
Now this statement would be an accusation.
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carolsnider said,
I agree.
But sometimes it does happen. My issue is that when exceptions do occur to this, it’s almost always in favor of Non-Christian faiths. The Christians usually get the shaft.
The schools almost always limit Christian kids, but then turn around and give a pass on Islam, Wicca, New Age, whatever, beliefs.
I provided links in a post above about public schools in California making the kids dress up, during school time, in burqas, praying to Allah, and learn the tenets of Islam, etc.
I think it may be fine for a teacher to give a “Just the facts ma’am” type lecture where Islam (or whatever faith) is discussed as in, “Here is what some types of Muslims believe, A, B, C.”
But to make kids pray to Allah or put on religious articles of clothing? I think that is pushing it.
I would not make a Jewish kid or atheist kid pray to Jesus in class, or wear a cross necklace, for instance.
As a kid, I was interested in what other people believed, and I would sometimes ask classmates about their beliefs.
My parents had a set of Encyclopedia Britannica at home, and I read the sections on Catholicism and Protestantism, and maybe the stuff on Hinduism and other religions.
As I got older and could afford it working minimum wage jobs in my early 20s, I purchased books on world religions, more books about debates between atheists and Christians, a ton of books about Roman Catholicism years later, then the internet came along, and, using the internet, I read about atheism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses online, and assorted cults that aren’t as well known.
I read web sites by adherents of those positions who were defending or explaining their beliefs, people who were ex- adherents who were critical of, and articles by critics of these various faiths/beliefs.
This is college level situation in this article, but I don’t agree with a professor doing this, even if it’s to make a larger point (the student in this example is a Mormon):
Dismissed Professor Who Told Students to ‘Stomp on Jesus’ Allowed To Do It Again
I don’t agree with Islam, but I don’t think I would not be okay with an American professor making atheist, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Christian students to step on a piece of paper that says “Allah” on it, or “Prophet Mohhammed.”
That seems unnecessarily controversial and disrespectful (in a classroom context), even in trying to teach the students whatever he was trying to convey.
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Correction of my last post,
“I don’t agree with Islam, but I don’t think I would not be okay with an American professor making atheist, Jewish, Mormon”
—–
the word “not” should not be in there.
In other words, I would not approve of a professor telling a, say, Wiccan or Muslim, or whatever kind of kid, to stomp up and down on the name “Allah” (or “Buddha” or “Yahweh” or whatever other religious figure), in other words.
Unless someone could convince me that this had some big teaching merit to it, a really worthwhile value, then I would reconsider my view…
But in the meantime, it seems rude and unnecessary to have a student stomp on the name of some person (or someone considered deity) who is revered by other people.
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Ed, I think I answered your questions. I understand you don’t think so, but that’s okay. It’s obvious neither of us will convince the other, and that’s okay as well. It took me a long time, alot of research, and a 180 degree revolution of the way my father taught American history (he believes as you do). It was not a journey I took lightly, nor was it easy. IMHO, America is not, and was not a “Christian nation”. If others think so (peoples, or nations) that is their right. What is my right is to life, liberty, and happiness. And since this conversation is no longer making me happy, I’m leaving and going to enjoy the beautiful Maui weather I get to experience. Aloha!
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Gotta love Anne Lamott, who said this on her Facebook page today:
“Let’s settle this God thing once and for all.
God, or no God?
Who on earth knows?
Any proof, either way?
None, except for Bach, foxes, forgiveness, elephants, bulbs and my dog Lily, may she rest in peace. Also, the fact that someone like me could have 28 years without alcohol or the non-habit-forming marijuana I smoked on a daily basis for 15 years. Also, ripe peaches, books, and Mr. Rogers.
There is Infinite good and beauty and heroism and artistic genius everywhere we look. Is this proof of God?
No, because there is also infinite evil and madness. I am not going to name names.
What do we even mean when we use the word “God?”
For the sake of argument, let’s say we mean a Higher Power–a power greater than our thinky thoughts, good ideas, grudges, positions and opinions: a divine Mind, a benevolent intelligence of some sort, some kind of bankable Love energy. Something that hears us and cares, when we cry out in our pain and mortification. I also like the Deteriorata’s definition of God as the Cosmic Muffin.
But what if the most illustrious atheists and agnostics hear that we actually believe this?
It’s none of your business what they think. To plagiarize from my book, it is like worrying about some guy wandering around the Mojave in a wet suit, reciting the poetry of Edgar A. Guest. People get to think and believe what they think and believe. You will never change them, or they us. Surrender: lay your weapons down. Let me make you a nice cup of tea.
What if they say you are ignorant, and a danger, in public?
It would have nothing to do with you. Maybe they are having trouble at work, or a spastic colon.
So do you actually believe that the soul is eternal? That death is just the end of dying, not of life?
Yes. Also, that there is a dessert section in heaven, and that it in fact makes up most of heaven, except for the ponds, and gift shop.
But we still die, correct?
Of course, and the question we ask ourselves, is, How do we live in the face of that? How alive are we willing to be? Why do we keep hitting the snooze button? What will it take for us to stop squandering our time?
Well? What’s the answer? What does it take to get serious about this life we’ve been given, even if we don’t know if God gave it to us, or chance?
Usually either a terminal illness or a DUI.
Is it legal to believe in evolution and all aspects of modern physics, yet also believe in a personal god, a Beloved, a sacred dimension to our lives?
Yes, in some states.”
She and I do not share all religious beliefs, and yet I *love* her!! Go figure.
I also love Julie Anne! 🙂
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Ok, Keith. Thanks for letting me know.
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Hannah, quit bragging. 😉
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missdaisyflower said:
“I would not approve of a professor telling a, say, Wiccan or Muslim, or whatever kind of kid, to stomp up and down on the name “Allah” (or “Buddha” or “Yahweh” or whatever other religious figure), in other words.
Unless someone could convince me that this had some big teaching merit to it, a really worthwhile value, then I would reconsider my view…
But in the meantime, it seems rude and unnecessary to have a student stomp on the name of some person (or someone considered deity) who is revered by other people.”
This should NEVER happen, and if it does, the person in charge should be severely reprimanded! Really, it just comes down to the Golden Rule again, and basic human respect and dignity: don’t “stomp on” the beliefs of others (figuratively and literally).
If you ever thought that I think it’s OK to do this, you misunderstood me. I will vehemently defend and protect your rights to your religious beliefs – whether or not I agree with them.
My support ends if/when you (generic ‘you’) foist your beliefs upon others against their will or expect special treatment because of them.
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Carolsnider said,
Paul makes this point in the New Testament.
I’d say that doctrine is important, but some Christians get carried away with it to the point they start placing doctrine above how they treat people.
From 1 Corinthians 13,
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Carolsinder said,
Oh no, I didn’t mean it that way. I was making conversation and just explaining some of my thoughts about these topics.
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“But sometimes it does happen. My issue is that when exceptions do occur to this, it’s almost always in favor of Non-Christian faiths. The Christians usually get the shaft.”
Another tenet of our system of government is protecting the rights of the minority, sometimes at the expense of the majority. And I don’t believe the US is a “christian nation”.
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nmgirl said,
That’s because Muslims have a reputation for going screaming kill-crazy and racking up a body count whenever they think some Infidel might be dissing them. (Ask the guys at Charlie Hebdo…)
Fear Breeds Respect.
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OK, so….wowow…where to begin.
Carol,
Sorry to have gotten out of line with you. I’m just frustrated that unbelievers of Christianity is indeed taking away Christian freedoms.
Next to others,
A Amos Love, I loved your Satan Santa joke!!
Next,
I do not believe that there should be ANY religion taught in school. Having said that, I believe in the FREE EXERCISE, free expression. I mean, really, to mandate that candy canes can’t be passed out at school because it represents Christmas, and Christmas represents Jesus? Every time we turn around there is some pretty nutty things going by the school teachers or administrators that are putting a halt on Christian traditions that have been going on for a long time that goes well beyond my great great grandparents.
In regards to children, I’m still not getting why children are discussing DOCTRINE at a third grade school level. Not getting that one at all.
I heard a Christian Comedian say, “What part offends you about Christmas, the Peace On Earth, or the Good Will Towards Men?”, then he slaps the microphone to his head, showing confusion. Christmas USED TO BE FOR EVERYONE, not just Christians. But people are getting offended over Christmas, Easter? Don’t atheists like colored hard boiled eggs, chocolate bunnies? It’s for everyone.
In regards to a Christian Nation, I posted a reference in Psalms TWICE. Did anyone notice? It states:
Blessed is the NATION whose God is the Lord? Did anyone see that? I posted it twice.
Do we say God Bless America in vain?
How can God bless a nation that isn’t his? Or, do we just say, God bless this house, and curse everyone else?
Freedom Comes from Jesus, and HE is God. Our nation was based on Jesus, not the God of the Old Test that stoned people and hated shell fish.
I’m very confused as to why people do not believe that we are a Christian nation. We have no problem saying Muslim nation or Jewish Nation.
Our good friend, Born4Battle, yesterday, posted an article written by Craig Dunkley posted on a web site called American Thinker.
It’s an interesting article: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/01/christianity_is_losing_in_america.html
In the third paragraph, it states that we are a Christian Nation:
“Since its inception, the United States has been a predominantly Christian nation, though open-minded and founded on religious tolerance. Our sense of personal freedom and tolerance, backed by a thoroughly Judeo-Christian worldview, has contributed mightily to this nation’s greatness. That worldview, and the Christian faith behind it, is being whittled away by the media, our popular culture, and a newly emboldened “activist atheist” movement. The pace of that whittling has accelerated over the last decade.”
This thread began as a result of me using the word FREEDOM, and that our FREEDOM comes from God, based on the Declaration of Independence.
That is what I believe, and then I began getting hammered by CHRISTIANS that don’t believe that. And due to CHRISTIANS hammering me, I got defensive, when it was that creed that I grew up with, in school, in church, at home. I couldn’t believe that I was getting hammered on that BASIC thing.
The freedoms mentioned in that are God given freedoms, and Jesus is the ONLY one of ALL religions that gives that freedom. Jesus. The Christian Faith. Yes, there are perverted Christian sects. And that was in the minds of our forefathers. Thomas Jefferson trembles that we would sway from God and receive judgment. Many would mock that statement today, coming from the average Joe Christian. And they do. They mock Christianity as a whole. They mock the Duck Dynasty guy for telling the truth. Well, if they don’t like him, why do they watch him? Just to see what he is going to say next so that they can badmouth and mock him again, saying that he supports intolerance, etc.? The people that preach tolerance are not so tolerant of Christians. Am I saying anything untrue here?
Yes, we are a melting pot. But we are all supposed to assimilate. It seems that part is not happening. We are NOT e pluribus unum anymore. We are our own little separate cliques.
When people talk about rights, I’m wondering what rights do they want that they think that they don’t have. Equal rights, they scream. Well, they have a right to go to my church if they want. They have a right to eat at McDonalds. They have the right to drive a car. They have a right to watch TV. I’m not getting what right they are missing? But I, as a Christian, knows what rights are being removed from Christians. I’ve seen it. Candy canes no longer authorized in school? How nutty is that? But that is minor compared to other nutty things that I have seen in recent years.
Being in the US Navy, GOD WAS FOREFRONT in the US military. You would be surprised about how much we learn about God in that organization alone, even without church. It’s amazing. And people, Christians, are trying to tear me down for being a patriotic person that believes that this nation is a Christian Nation?
Blessed is the NATION whose God is the Lord. God Bless America. I stand and salute the Flag of the United States of America and WHAT IT STANDS FOR.
How many Christians actually knows what it stands for?
Ed
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Headless Unicorn Guy said:
” ‘I see exceptions made all the time for Non-Christian faiths. Muslims and others are usually treated with kid gloves…’
That’s because Muslims have a reputation for going screaming kill-crazy and racking up a body count whenever they think some Infidel might be dissing them. (Ask the guys at Charlie Hebdo…)
Fear Breeds Respect.”
Just as some Christians are abusers and philanderers and abortion clinic bombers, MOST are not. Most Christians are peaceful, loving humans.
Just as some Muslims are suicide killers and rapists, MOST are not. Most Muslims are peaceful, loving humans.
Ignorance breeds fear.
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Guess what today, January 16th is? Happy Religious Freedom Day! http://religiousfreedomday.com/
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LOL, Carol!
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This is a great pamphlet about religious rights in American public schools. I learned quite a bit!
Click to access RFD_Guidebook_2012.pdf
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Very interesting, Carol. Thank you. This part specifically addresses students attending religious instruction during school hours (I was previously discussing Mormon high school students who left campus during school hours to attend seminary):
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Ed, curious to know what you think of this by Thomas Jefferson (from Carol’s link above):
A Paraphrase of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
An easier-to-understand paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson’s Words
God created us to be free in our thinking. He is allpowerful
but He chose not to force us to obey Him.
Throughout history there have been people who have tried
to force others to believe a certain way about God. Often
times this has led to people being forced to believe what
the ruler believed even if it wasn’t really true. We don’t
want that.
It also isn’t right to force people to give money to religions
that they don’t believe. It is best to let people support
the religion they believe is the best one. The government
shouldn’t even force people to support the religion they do
believe is right. Each person should be free to support his
religion in the way he thinks is best.
The rights we have, as citizens, shouldn’t depend on
which religion we follow. The government shouldn’t tell
people that they cannot hold a public office like mayor, or
governor, or President just because of their religious beliefs.
If the government did that, it would only cause people
to lie about their beliefs. They might say they believe this
or that religion just to run for political office. Of course,
it would be wrong for people to lie about their religious
beliefs, but it would also be wrong for the government to
tempt people to lie by saying that only people who believe
a certain way can be in politics. The government’s job is to
help keep a peaceful society, not to tell people what religion
to follow.
Truth is a wonderful thing. Truth can defend itself if you
just let it be told. People need to be free to talk about what
they believe is the truth about God.
Because of all this, we, the leaders of the state of Virginia,
have decided the government should not force
anybody to follow a religion, nor should the government
force anybody to pay money to support a religion. People
should decide this for themselves. Also, the government
shouldn’t hassle people because of the religion they follow.
Instead, everybody should be free to follow, and talk about,
their religion.
We know that we are elected by the people to make
decisions for right now. We know that in the future some
group of Virginia’s leaders may decide to change this law.
But, if they did that, we want to say right now that would
be wrong, because God created us to be free.
Click to access RFD_Guidebook_2012.pdf
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Julie Anne,
I have no problem in what he is saying. I’m not trying to force anyone to believe in anything that they don’t want to. All I’m asking is that they acknowledge what this nation was founded on, and I get resistance. The founding fathers did not want this nation to be a godless one. They were very clear about that. And, as Christians, we are indeed to spread the gospel. It is true, that some have twisted that gospel. But the gospel is clearly spelled out in 1 Cor 15, that Jesus died and suffered to remove our sins, and rose on the third day proving eternal life. That is the gospel. Those founding fathers intended us as Christians to do what Jesus told us to do, but to not force Jesus upon anyone. But, I still ask that people acknowledge the supernatural words of the declaration of independence. Some say that the Declaration is not a legal document. And yet, everyone in America celebrates the 4th of July. The Constitution was not signed on that date. The Declaration of Independence was. Do we, as Americans know the words written in that document, that our founding fathers declared that freedom does not come from man, but from God? That is what the signers believed. And they wrote it down.
In addition, notice the wording that Thomas Jefferson is using, showing that there really is NOT a separation of CHURCH FROM STATE, but rather STATE FROM CHURCH. Therefore, I do not believe in a separation OF church and state.
Carol,
Thank you for the reference. I have saved the PDF.
Ed
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I was thinking on this the US is a Christian Nation. I agree that the Christian religion has had a huge impact on this nation and it is the predominant faith group in the USA. But what has made our nation truly strong has been the avoidance of a “State” church, it has been my opinion that when the church gains the secular sword it will use it, always. If the state churches of Europe during the reformation had access to modern nuclear weapons, it is a fact more sure than God Europe would have been a nuclear waist land and the reformation under a nuclear cloud would have evaporated along with say a billion people. I have been in bible studies where folks did not even bat an eyelash about the potential loss of life during the great tribulation when possibly four to five billion might die. I cant even fathom that. I get upset when one tragic death happens. Another proof of my apostasy and me not giving glory to God at whole sail slaughter of billions of broken vessels created from eternity past for just that purpose. And people think I am crazy.
Is it just me or do any of you struggle with such issues. Personally I think most of the end time nonsense to be just that nonsense, granted it generates revenue and that is a key if not the only real factor to be considered. I was with a brother in a house where many of us lived, it really was neat. But this brother brought up the AIDS virus and biblical prophecy, he spoke about how many in Africa were dying from it or at least that is what I remember was an answer to biblical prophecy for the end times, I remember mumbling, I guess God is a bad aim because many of those affected were children. I got a glaring glance to which I said, I guess God was glorified during the black death. I got the question mark look. Of course God is not glorified in the horrid deaths of millions, if such a “divine” creature existed we should repudiate it to its face and it is not God.
God is the God of hope, who pierced the vale to reach us with answers when we were ready to hear them like any Father would be. He gave us the answers to many diseases when we were ready to hear them, and those that lost their lives before we were given these answers, passed into the arms of a loving Father. I totally agree with one thing, our first parents, Adam and Eve messed it up, as each of us do on a daily basis, so God, who is rich in mercy reaches out to us, in the Day to Day, through the mundane and longs to bring us back. You know I tried to be an atheist for a few years, even the atheist told me to return to the faith because they saw just how painful it was for me. I could not even get that right. I always found that ironic. I know two things, God is good, and God loves us. That is all I really know for certain. God is good and He loves all of us, even me.
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Ed,
I still love hearing Red Skelton reciting the Pledge of Allegiance as he told of a teacher who thought his students were beginning to be bored with reciting it every day. The flag is a symbol or our freedom and the loss of life it took to get that freedom. We should never be so thoughtless as to how many gave their lives for this country and the freedom we still have.
A democracy has an estimated lifespan of 200 years. We can hold out for more. But I also believe that only turning back to God through his Son, Jesus Christ, is going to allow that to happen. Out hedge has diminished. I sign petitions through various Christian organizations often to stop someone in the armed forces leadership from taking away Christian freedoms. Heaven forbid we should offend someone of another faith or no faith at all, but it is ok to take our liberties away from those who are still fighting for our freedom. If anyone believes that fighting in another country is not protecting us, look around, it is now happening here and more frequently.
Blessed is the NATION whose God is the Lord. God Bless America. I stand and salute the Flag of the United States of America and WHAT IT STANDS FOR.
Amen and blessings, Brenda
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Brenda,
For your viewing pleasure:
Red Skelton, Pledge of Allegiance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM
Ed
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Ed That gets my tear ducts going every time. I’m not sure why “Under God” was not in there in the first place.
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This is VERY, no, extremely inspiring, from a former recent President of the United States, now passed away.
http://youtu.be/8-0CBP0NVeo
Ed
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There should be a clap and an Amen button somewhere here. We need more like President Reagan and less of what we have heard from the past few years. I love the scripture that was at the end of the first clip. It is fitting. We were not given freedom to use it for sinful purposes.
I just had to go on to some of the other clips. There is an old Ronald Reagan western movie that I will be watching. I do love a good western.
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Brenda,
I won’t post it here, but if you get a chance, go to YouTube and check out Paul Harvey, “If I Were The Devil”. Then after listening to that, ponder our society today. Very eerie, as if it were a prophecy come true. It was first recorded in 1965.
Ed
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In the beginning of my career, I taught (mostly subbed in) primary grades (K-3) and was amazed, as was Red Skelton’s principal, that kids recited the Pledge of Allegience having no idea of the real meaning of the words coming out of their mouths. (I had the same impression when I went to Catholic Church with my husband and his family before we were married. “What does that mean?” I would ask him, as he and the congregation verbalized a sort of back and forth with the priest. “I really don’t know,” was his answer each time. “I’ve just said those words every Sunday for as long as I can remember.”). I remember it really bothering me, when I taught those classes, that kids mindlessly recited the Pledge of Allegience. (Had I done this as a child too? Most likely, yes…) So I stopped to discuss the meaning of the Pledge with them, word by word, as Red Skelton’s principal did. Most of those kids had NO clue what they were saying each morning, just like My husband had no clue what he was saying each week in church.
My parents were immigrants, both German, my father a Jew who escaped from a work camp. (A fascinating story in itself. I am working on a book that tells his story.) They worked hard to come to the US and to become citizens. They knew what it meant to change one’s allegience and the importance of not following blindly any authority, but to question and ponder and explore until one knows and decides for themselves. This is part of their decision not to raise us in any one religion, but to expose us to and educate us about a variety of religions, encouraging us to explore and ponder and decide what religion, if any, would be right for us.
Do I think the words “under God” belong in the pledge? No. It’s confusing for a country with a strong tenet of separation of church and state. I also don’t think it should be on our currency. If we, as a country, have made separation of church and state one of our basic tenets, then don’t muddy the waters by placing God into our pledge and onto our currency. It’s just… confusing. It seems to me that we can’t have it both ways, saying that God is not part of our government — but kinda is.
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Carol,
You have a fascinating story in regards to your father.
In regards to Under God, President Lincoln used it in his Gettysburg Address, paragraph 3. So, obviously, he didn’t believe in the TODAYS redefined “separation of church and state. And, President Ronald Reagan has no problem with using Under God, either, as he states in the video, that yes, we are a nation under God.
As I noted above, I do not believe in today’s version of separation of church and state. I believe in separation of state from church, but not church from state. That, to me, was the meaning behind the letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Baptists. He certainly was not telling the baptists to keep their religious thoughts to themselves. He was stating that the government was not going to meddle in church affairs, thereby avoiding a theocracy. But he never intended for the church not to be involved with the state. So, to me, separation of church and state is not a basic tenet. The meaning has been changed. And based on that change in meaning, monuments of the Ten Commandments are being removed from courthouses, etc., that has been there for generations before. That is what I mean by the atheists taking away our Christian traditions and heritage, and history.
Listen to Paul Harvey’s, If I Were The Devil on YouTube.
In regards to your family bringing you up to make up your own minds of what religion to follow, that one blows my mind. The Bible shows us, even in the Old Test., that we are to bring up our children to the knowledge of God, and then, when they get old enough, they then can make up their own minds. But, keep in mind, age appropriate learning. The concept of hell is for older kids, not 3rd graders.
Anyway, that’s my take.
Ed
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Ed,
If there was not the separation of church and state, then you are saying the state would have to legally define Church/church wording, etc. Think of this, most of the defamatory phrases in my lawsuit had to do with church. The court wouldn’t touch them because they does not define or interpret religion or spiritual matters. Do you want the State defining scripture for you, Ed? Really?
I believe the state must be separate from the church. I see no other way.
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I apologise for violating the blog rules.
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