Learn to Discern

Are We a Christian Nation or Not?

Julie Anne

***

medium_14325904038***

The marital rape post started veering off into a political direction and as I read through some of it, I think it is a topic worthy of discussion here.

I’ll use Ed’s last post as a starting off point and add a few of my words (which Ed probably won’t like), but he’ll still be my friend – lol.

 

Marsha,
Sorry but I disagree. However, I will say that when I first learned of the certain sect of Christianity that are pushing their hard line right wing agenda’s, I stopped labeling myself as a conservative Christian, although I am conservative that is a Christian. I believe that there are Christians on both sides of the aisle, progressive, etc. But, how many progressives nationwide believe in God vs. the conservatives?

Who is changing Christmas to winter break? When we used to say, Happy Holidays, it was because there were two holidays, Christmas and New Years Day. It used to be that all faiths (except Jews) celebrated Christmas, even atheists. Now all of a sudden the rest of us have to endure a “winter break” greeting? When I hear that, I ask, “What Holiday?” Things are getting nuttier in America these days.

I agree that it didn’t have the 2/3 vote, but it still had a majority that did not want God in the platform at all. So, the question in my mind is NOT how many voted for or against. My question is for those who voted against it, why did they vote against it? The majority voted against it, but the minority was called the winner. That was not right, based on the call for a vote.

***

When I went to public elementary school in San Jose, California. I remember praying in class – we’re talking early 70s (yea, I turned 50 a few months ago – OY).  The school holidays were named after religious holidays:  Easter break, Christmas break.

Now I have kids in public school.  One school is filled with predominantly Mormon students and one day a Mormon student asked the public school teacher if they could pray before an event. I was there and witnessed this.  This was not on school grounds and the teacher said yes.  What if it was a Muslim student asking to pray in front of the whole class? Would I (or you) be okay with that?

I saw Brenda R.’s comment about Sharia law and did not find it offensive at all. Do you have any European friends? They will likely tell you how the religious landscape of their countries has changed in the past decade or so. Muslims have come into their countries in droves, buying land, sometimes attempting to get Sharia law integrated into the laws of their new land. The way I look at this is it is no different than the Christian Reconstructionists trying to infiltrate our US government and impose Old Testament laws into our current legal system.  I have big problems with that, too!

So, my opinion is:  let’s have Winter break and Spring break for schools. I don’t want Christ taught in public schools. I want my kids to be educated in the three Rs in public school and leave the religious education to the parents. I don’t mind a class on a survey of religions, but I don’t want our public schools to focus on Christianity as the foundational religion (even if I believe it to be so). We may have Buddhist teachers, Mormon teachers, etc, in our schools. We may have teachers who believe in Benny Hinn theology, etc.

So there’s my opinion. What’s yours? Please be careful when posting – this topic can get heated!

*******
photo credit: JeepersMedia via photopin cc

433 thoughts on “Are We a Christian Nation or Not?”

  1. Marsha, I did all those same things, too. But when I was in school, my focus was not even on my school work, let alone religion. It was GIRLS. Yes, even in the third grade. But ya know what? Even in the third grade, we said the Pledge of Allegiance, with the words, UNDER GOD, right after roll call, and the morning announcements over the loud speaker.

    Children should learn children things in regards to Christianity, not adult things that one learns in church. Children did not attend church, they attended Sunday School, when I was growing up, any way.

    We were in the “Jesus loves me this I know” grade level. Not advanced stuff for older folks.

    Ed

    Like

  3. @carolsnider

    Just to clarify, if my child had upset your son like that I’d be horrified. I’d be having a little chat with my child about respecting other people’s beliefs.

    I realize, too, that there are regional differences in predominant faith groups. We all have different experiences to bring to the table.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Hannah,

    But, I keep harping on the Declaration of Independence, which uses supernatural wording. It is a founding document, and it should be acknowledged as such, in which invokes God. I think it is important to know what our founding father’s intent was for this country that we live in. None of them intended for this to be a godless country. That is my point.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  5. There are a lot of people who worship God who are not Christians. Jews. Muslims (“allah” is the Arabic translation of “god”). Deists. And at least ten other non-Christian groups who are mono-theistic and believe in a creator god that they worship. A reference to God, creator, etc., is not, ipso facto, a reference to the Christian God.

    The dropping of “so help me God” and use of the Bible on which to swear derives from some of our Christian sects who believe that swearing by God’s name is blasphemous and using the Bible is to demean it. It has since been generalized to other, non-Christians and other Christians. I personally do not think of the Bible as the Word of God, because the Bible says that Jesus is the Word!)

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Anonymous,

    Well, for the most part I agreed, but based on the Declaration of Independence, those God given rights are to be defended by our government. If that be the case, which it is, then our nation is a Christian Nation, denied by some.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  7. An Attorney,

    Your words confuse me. Jesus is the word of God. If you know the definition of Logos, it is “Spoken Word, INCLUDING THOUGHT” The whole Bible is God’s Word (Jesus) to us, for they originated in HIS mind.

    Ed

    Like

  9. Again “God” is not one-for-one “Christ” in our language. In my faith it is, but in our law, in our language, etc., there is not a one-to-one relationship. Don’t continue to insist that the use of the word “God” in a document indicates “Christian.” It does not. It is an ignorant, logical fallacy.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. I would prefer that you educate yourself. Your ignorance is showing, but is remediable with a little bit of research.

    Like

  12. An Attorney “Ignorant”? Do you think there was some other God in mind historically? Can you support this assertion?

    Like

  13. Ed – In my mind using the Declaration of Independence as your basis is faulty as it holds no legal power today. The Declaration was a one time legal document that advised England we were rejecting their rule and becoming our own separate entity from them. The Constitution is the crucial document as it is the basis our laws to this day. As you know it was written after the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution has no mention of God and was and still is the foundation of our nation. BTW, have you heard of the Treaty of Tripoli?

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Gail,
    I do not remember each and every thing that is said. In the Rape in Marriage discussion there were 400 or so comments. Some posts are very long and I remember highlights only sometimes. I asked a question to hopefully induce thought. I don’t think a genie can’t be put back into a bottle. If God fearing Christians would get off their duffs and tell their politicians we’re not going to take it anymore. We can turn back to God.

    Like

  17. Are we a nation with Christian principles in its foundation? Yes. Plus Enlightenment principles, English common law principles, Greco-Roman legal principles, etc. Christian teachings and values are very important to our society and very much a historical influence.

    Are most people in this country Christian? Yes, at least in terms of religious affiliation (but only God knows who truly believes).

    Are we a Christian nation? No — because there is no such thing as a Christian nation. Just as there is no such thing a Christian building, or Christian music, or Christian books. Christian means a person who is a follower of Jesus Christ. Being a person is essential to being Christian. The is no Christian anything other than people.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Lydia,

    I read your link. So, my question to you is:

    Was Madison a Christian?
    Are Baptists Christian?

    Conclusion: Christians should not be jailed, no matter what their denominational beliefs are. Or, were there Buddhist’s in town, too?

    Yes, religious freedoms, I do not disagree with you, regardless of my snark. But, the battle with Madison had nothing to do with different religions, but with differing denominational beliefs, to be in context.

    Part of that link states:
    “But consider Madison’s appeals in the Memorial. He voices concern that the misuse of religion would lead to “an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.””

    Seems to me that he is concerned that religion be not PERVERTED in government, and based on the use of the word “salvation”, that religion is not a generic one, but a Christian one.

    Ed

    Like

  19. Atlanta Fire Chief Kelvin Cochran learned all about the newly-established religion of secularism when he was fired recently for what he wrote in a book. Ain’t that America?

    Liked by 2 people

  21. Another Tom,

    You said:
    “Are we a Christian nation? No — because there is no such thing as a Christian nation. Just as there is no such thing a Christian building, or Christian music, or Christian books. Christian means a person who is a follower of Jesus Christ. Being a person is essential to being Christian. The is no Christian anything other than people.”

    My response:
    Well, I live in a Christian nation. And I listen to Christian music, I read Christian books, too. I even go to Christian concerts. In August, I saw the Christian Band called Newsboys. I’m sure that they consider themselves as a Christian Band that is played on Christian radio stations.

    Hmmmmm.

    Ed

    Like

  22. Hannah,

    Another Atheist also told me that in regards to the Declaration of Independence. But, it is a founding document that the Department of Immigration acknowledges is the PROMISE, and that the Constitution is the fulfillment of that promise.

    It’s sad that you feel that way in regards to that document, because it states the foundational REASON as to why our forefathers came here. Deleting that document based on what you laid out, does not tell the truth. Ignoring the truth does not make it go away.

    Ed

    Like

  24. Yah, Another Tom,
    I have to agree with Ed on this one. I didn’t see the Newsboys, but did see the Christian band, Third Day and they do call themselves a Christian band. They are a group of Christians who sing music that an atheist probably won’t want to listen to or pay to go see, but as a Christian I sure do.

    Like

  26. Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, in my opinion is a disingenuous statement. They didn’t want religion to get in the way of a relationship between countries. But I still find it disingenuous.

    This website:
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp

    Underneath the treaty:

    [The “Receipt”]

    Praise be to God &c-

    The present writing done by our hand and delivered to the American Captain OBrien makes known that he has delivered to us forty thousand Spanish dollars,-thirteen watches of gold, silver & pinsbach,-five rings, of which three of diamonds, one of saphire and one with a watch in it, One hundred & forty piques of cloth, and four caftans of brocade,-and these on account of the peace concluded with the Americans.

    Given at Tripoli in Barbary the 20th day of Jumad 1211, corresponding with the 21st day of Novr 1796-

    (Signed) JUSSUF BASHAW-Bey whom God Exalt

    The foregoing is a true copy of the reciept given by Jussuf Bashaw- Bey of Tripoli-

    (Signed) HASSAN BASHAW-Dey of Algiers.

    The foregoing is a literal translation of the writing in Arabic on the opposite page.

    JOEL BARLOW
    ————————————-

    How many times is God mentioned here? And this is from the other side. So, I find that article 11 to be totally disingenuous.

    Ed

    Like

  29. “Carolsnider,

    The freedom of religion was ORIGINALLY intended for differing CHRISTIAN beliefs, and it evolved into differing alternate religions, or no religion at all.

    Note that it states freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

    Ed”

    What you are saying is that our country was founded under the belief that, as long as you are Christian, you are free to practice any denomination of Christianity?!

    I beg to differ.

    Our nation was founded on the belief that religion (*any* religion) and government should not be tied, but should be separate entities.

    Ed, do you believe that I, as an atheist, should have the same freedoms as a US citizens as you do?

    Carol”

    Hi Ed,

    I posed two direct questions above. Would you be so kind as to answer them directly? Thanks in advance.

    Carol

    Liked by 2 people

  30. An Attorney said:
    “Again “God” is not one-for-one “Christ” in our language. In my faith it is, but in our law, in our language, etc., there is not a one-to-one relationship. Don’t continue to insist that the use of the word “God” in a document indicates “Christian.” It does not. It is an ignorant, logical fallacy.

    Don’t continue, you say? Really? Something about law? Do I smell a jail sentence here?

    What did the Apostles do when they were told not to preach Jesus because it was against the law? They were beaten, jailed, but did not obey the law. They stated that it is better to obey God, than to obey their law.

    So, I don’t obey your command to “don’t continue to insist” blah blah.

    Ed

    Like

  31. It seems to me that if it was that pivotal and crucial, it would have been in the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence was in essence a one-time letter. The Constitution was designed to be living and eternal.

    Again I ask if you’re familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli and I wouldn’t mind your take on what it says.

    Like

  34. Don’t continue to insist that the use of the word “God” in a document indicates “Christian.” It does not. It is an ignorant, logical fallacy.

    This kind of attitude is exactly why our country is getting closer to jailing Christians for teaching the gospel.

    Liked by 2 people

  35. Carol,

    I’ll answer your last first, because it was closer to me for a cut and paste:

    Your question:
    “Ed, do you believe that I, as an atheist, should have the same freedoms as a US citizens as you do?”

    I did answer that already, but I will say it again, YES.

    Your question:
    What you are saying is that our country was founded under the belief that, as long as you are Christian, you are free to practice any denomination of Christianity?!

    My answer:
    No, that is not what I said. But, I will answer with a bit of snark, first. In the days of our founding, what part of town did the Buddhists live in? They didn’t, and that was my point. The religion being discussed in them days was Christianity. Many different denominations. The people were all Christians that came here from a theocracy. Buddhists were not on the boat.

    Advance a number of years, THEN we had varying “religions”.

    Yes, they are free to believe anything that they want. BUT, they need to acknowledge the Declaration of Independence, SO STATES THE DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION. For those of us naturally born here, we generally have NO CLUE as to the requirements of what it takes for a foreigner to become a citizen. The Department of Immigration acknowledges that document. Knowledge of that document is indeed important.

    Ed

    Like

  37. Julie Anne

    JANUARY 15, 2015 @ 9:16 AM
    Ed, did you like your own comment? haha

    Aw now, don’t tease him too much for that.

    I was just saying the other day in an older thread I accidentally hit the “Like” link for some of my own posts (when trying to click on the time/date stamp links to make the browser bring that post up to the top of my browser, or just clicking around the page on accident of what have you).

    I didn’t even notice I was doing it at first.
    Then when I saw I had accidentally “liked” some my own posts, I was mortified to think anyone else running their cursor over that would assume I must be a huge egotist. (I un-clicked the ones I noticed but probably overlooked a few)

    Liked by 1 person

  38. carolsnider,

    Was my son spiritually abused?

    I think he was bullied. I don’t think kids that you have a perception of spiritual abuse. I was not taken to church on a regular basis until 5th grade, but it didn’t take long until I knew what Hell was all about and knew it wasn’t a place I wanted to visit. If I had been in Sunday School earlier, I am sure I wouldn’t have been shielded from that same version.

    I think someone else may have said this already: If it were my child doing the bullying, there would have been consequences including an apology to your child. I would be proud of my children if they told others about the gospel, but the way that was handled was totally inappropriate.

    Like

  39. An Attorney wrote,

    Re: Sharia Law: Sharia law is generally like the older common law in many parts of the world. A local group of elders decides what the law is applicable to a dispute, based on their reading of the Quran and other religious writings

    But it’s funny how Sharia law always puts the onus on women, or puts women down. Women have to do things like have a male relative -or is it several?- testify on their behalf at rape trials, because their word alone means nothing in some of those legal systems or cultures.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. Hannah,

    I’m gonna be sleeping shortly, as I got up at 1:00am this morning. So, until I am able to respond to your later questions, I have one for you to ponder.

    Question:

    Why would our side find a need to mention God in a treaty in the first place? Is that normal protocol? Since God is invoked on the other side, who was that God? Would there be a rift in relationship if we admitted that we are a Christian Nation to those people?

    But the most important question is the first one, why would they find a need to inform another nation as to what our beliefs, or non-beliefs are in the first place? In a treaty!

    Today, they KNOW that we are a Christian nation. How is it that they know, but we don’t?

    According to them, we are the BIG SATAN, more of a threat than Israel. They know that we believe in Jesus. Why don’t we know that? And because they know, there is major enmity between us.

    So, in my opinion, article 11 was
    1. Not necessary, and
    2. Disingenuous, and
    3. Not a true statement, which is part of the definition of 2 above.

    Ed

    Like

  41. The point of this discussion is moot, there should be no teaching of ANY religion in the PUBLIC schools, Public schools use Public Money which comes from people of all backgrounds and religions. If it offends one, it offends all.
    Let the parents teach religion at home, I believe that (Under God) in the pledge to alligence was added in the 50;s during the big Red Scare,

    Liked by 3 people

  43. Ed,

    I acknowledge the Declaration of Independence. It is a document, it existed. It was drafted mainly by Thomas Jefferson and ratified by the colonies and is summarized by stating a list of grievances the colonies had with Great Britain and announcing their separation. It states we have rights – “to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men”.

    But I don’t believe the Treaty of Tripoli to be disingenuous. I see no reason why not to believe it when it says “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”.

    And take a look at something James Madison wrote: “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

    Like

  48. JA: C of E is the established church, thus that particular country is officially “Christian”. Perhaps the point is a distinction between an established church, a republic which is theistic, and an establishment of secularism?

    BTW, who insulted whom?

    Like

  49. Chapman ed siad

    So, do we delete the word God from history just because someone is offended?

    The problem as I see it is that if you want Christian beliefs/ history/ values taught, other groups in our very PC culture demand to have equal time.

    I’ve heard of Wiccans, Neo pagans, atheist, Muslims, and others who say if American public schools are going to give time to Christianity in the classroom, then their beliefs should get a hearing too. Same with holidays.

    What does happen in those cases, it seems to me, is that Christianity gets the short end of the stick. Public schools tip toe around the sensitivities of every single group out there except for Christians. They will let the Muslim kid read his Koran at recess but not let the Christian kid read his New Testament at recess.

    But anyway… if you start advocating to allow Christian anything in the public schools, the atheists and such demand they have a piece of the pie.

    I remember years ago, Satanist and atheist groups each demanded to have after school study clubs on school grounds because the Christian ones had after school Bible study clubs on campuses.

    Such being the case, I think I’d rather no religion get a hearing on school grounds rather than, say, to allow a bunch of kids to hold Satanic rituals during lunch break or after school, or pray to Satan, or whatever it is they do. Ditto with the Muslims and atheists.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Missdaisyflower: I see your point, but the problem is that true educational neutrality nearly impossible. Even the choice of which courses to teach is a non-neutral decision. Certainly the changing of names of holidays makes a statement. the statement is “Christian kids, this isn’t your country anymore…secularism now reigns”.

    Like

  51. Keith B said,

    “An Attorney: “Many were of other religions” Source please.”

    I’m not an expert or any of this, but I recall hearing or reading there were synagogues in 18th century America.
    _History of the Jews in Colonial America_

    I think (I may be wrong about this), but I also recall hearing there were Muslims in early America?? The Native Americans probably had their own religious views.
    Christians were probably in the majority in the late 18th century USA, but there were other faiths around.

    There’s an entire book on the topic apparently… “Jews and Muslims in British Colonial America -” I saw that when doing a quick search on this a moment ago.
    Some web page I skimmed said some of the early slaves in the USA were probably Muslims.

    _Islam in America_

    Liked by 1 person

  52. “The freedom of religion was ORIGINALLY intended for differing CHRISTIAN beliefs, and it evolved into differing alternate religions, or no religion at all.

    Note that it states freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.”

    So by your definition, do I have the freedom, as a US citizen, to prescribe to no religion at all? How does your freedom differ from mine? I agree with your statement (stated later) that there were very few (if any) Buddhists in America in 1776, but that fact says nothing at all about the freedom of religion component to our laws. There was also no Flying Spaghetti Monster (love that auto correct insisted that I capitalize that term!) 25 years ago, but those followers, as Americans, have the same rights as you, a Christian, or as I, an atheist (though still not sure if you believe that I have religious freedom rights), have. Isn’t that a GOOD thing? According to The Golden Rule, shouldn’t you treat them (and me) as you want to be treated? That is, free to worship (or not) as you please, with someone like me not inflicting my silly (or not) beliefs on you?

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Ed said:

    But, I keep harping on the Declaration of Independence, which uses supernatural wording.

    I can understand you saying it was a well-written document, but supernatural? How so? It was created by men? Are you saying it’s like the Bible?

    Liked by 1 person

  54. One of the doctrines that my former cult adopted was the Anabaptist Two-Kingdoms theology. It is essentially a separation of church and state. They (the early Anabaptists) were severely persecuted for this and many other ideas. They took seriously Jesus pronouncement that His “kingdom is not of this world.” They saw the believers church as the place where Jesus should reign. They fully expected society outside of the church to be “secular.” It was a perfectly logical concept to them.

    Like

  55. Wendell G said,

    So, how is a country that is increasingly removing Christianity from its cultural expressions, laws and mores Christian? At best, we are Christian in name only. I acknowledge and appreciate the quotes attributed to our founding fathers. I am well steeped in the roots and heritage of our country; however, that does not change the fact that we are no longer operating as a Christian nation. We are, at best a secular nation which includes Christians among its population and has a strong Christian influence in its history. Unfortunately, by our actions and the erosion of our beliefs, we have ceased to be practicing as a Christian nation.

    That is what I believe.

    I remember a few years ago when Obama said in some speech that the USA is not a “Christian nation” a lot of conservative Christians got upset.

    At that time, I was still completely a Christian (I am not sure exactly what I am now, I am working through it), but I was a Republican and still am, and at the time, I was at first slightly miffed at Obama.
    Then I sat and reflected on the stuff you mentioned in your paragraph above and thought, in a manner of speaking, Obama is correct, the USA is not longer a “Christian nation”

    I am still working through page 1 of the posts and see I my new comments are now being placed on page 2! I may have to take a break in a while to go jogging again. I’m trying to get in shape (again).

    Like

  56. carolsnider,

    I had to look up the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I had never heard of it before.

    As for the Golden Rule. Absolutely. We need to treat everyone as we would like to be treated and love our neighbor as ourself. Unfortunately, even being Christian does not make us perfect. It makes us followers of Jesus Christ. He is the only One that walked this life perfectly.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. Julie Anne said,

    Are any of you concerned about spiritual abuse that could occur to your own children on school grounds with religion allowed there?

    I don’t have any kids, but if I did, do you mean my kids being spiritually abused by Christian kids, or by atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus or whomever else? I’ll have to think up names for my hypothetical children.

    There was a big, big controversy several months or more ago in the UK. Some Muslims were trying to get Muslim teachings and practices forced into British schools or something, my memory is rather sketchy, so here is a link about it:
    _Hardline Muslims tried to impose Islam in British city’s schools – government report_

    July 2014
    A British government inquiry has found that hardline Muslims tried to impose an “intolerant and aggressive” Islamic agenda on some schools in the city of Birmingham, including separation of boys and girls in lessons and banning Christmas celebrations.

    You can also find this on Wiki (I think this refers to the same controversy):

    <Operation Trojan Horse refers to an organised attempt by a number of associated individuals to introduce an Islamist or Salafist ethos into several schools in Birmingham, England.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Ed asked: “Why would our side find a need to mention God in a treaty in the first place? Is that normal protocol? Since God is invoked on the other side, who was that God? Would there be a rift in relationship if we admitted that we are a Christian Nation to those people?

    But the most important question is the first one, why would they find a need to inform another nation as to what our beliefs, or non-beliefs are in the first place?”

    It was mentioned because it was important. Normal protocol – probably not, but when dealing with Islamic-controlled countries it’s a smart thing. God on the other side would be Allah – since they were dealing with Muslims. There already was a rift in the relationship – privateers were attacking and taking American’s prisoners and requiring tribute for protection of it’s own small fleet and its citizens.

    Considering the long-standing differences between Christians and Muslims, the wars fought, the Senate endorsed the effort to not make it a religious war, it wasn’t. While most people probably identified as some type of Christian, the separation of church and state was and still is paramount. Islamic Countries make their religion part of their laws. Our founding fathers were very careful not to make that mistake.

    Thomas Jefferson (principle writer of the Declaration of Independence) says this: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

    Liked by 2 people

  59. Keith B said,
    “Wendell G: When was secularism established?”

    I don’t think secularism was ever formally established, like with the founding fathers singing a Dec of Ind, so I cannot point to a specific date or a document, but our nation just sort of oozed down that path, or started to “slouch towards Gomorrah.”

    We’re not even the same nation today that we were in 1950, or heck, even 1980, and I think some things have changed since 1990.

    What appears to be the wide spread acceptance and celebration of homosexual behavior, for instance, seems to have caught on in the last 5, 10 years, but I recall even up to the mid or late 1990s, it was not seen as acceptable, even though every other TV show was placing homosexual characters in programming, like on “Will and Grace” and Ellen on the Ellen sit com, whatever it was called.
    (I’m just using that as a cultural touch stone to make a point about cultural change, I am not intending to start a debate about homosexuality per se)

    Liked by 1 person

  60. Hannah (my daughter, Phoenixtatgirl),

    It’s interesting to read your comments as your homeschool mama. 🙂

    I was thinking back on the curricula I used for history (for you). I used quite a diverse selection of materials, now that I think about it. Your primary grades I read books from Liberty Christian Academy (which I later found out was Reconstructionist). I then went to Beautiful Feet – you’ll remember Early American History and the fun trip we did to New England. The reading books that BF recommended were really good; however, there was one primary book they used for that series (and use for other history studies as well), called America’s Providential History. Now I know that to be Reconstructionist/Dominionist. I remember when the BF teacher’s guide would direct me to America’s Providential History book and I just couldn’t wrap my head around all of the Providential history stuff. I remember thinking, “so ALL, as in 100% people, were in this for Providential purposes – and for no other reason?” Next you studied Calvert which is secular and then TRISMS, which, as you know, is my all-time favorite history/science program and there was nothing religious in there at all. In high school, I believe you studied primary documents through a program that had you write essays on what you learned. I felt more comfortable with that considering it was primary documents, not men’s interpretations.

    Regardless of what you learned, I see that you grasped what I really hoped you would: the love of learning.

    Liked by 2 people

  61. chapmaned said,

    I beg to differ. Saint (NOTE THE WORD SAINT) Nick actually existed. His last name was Klaus (spelling may be wrong). He was a Christian that gave gifts to people without being obvious that it was him that was the one giving gifts.

    This is the same thing as what was being discussing earlier in the thread… even if the USA started out as Christian, it doesn’t appear very Christian now.
    Same with Christmas holiday. It may have its roots in the birth of Jesus, and Santa Claus is based on some real live guy who was turned into a Saint later, and his life embellished, etc, but today a lot of people view the holiday as a warm and fuzzy feel good time of year, not as a religious day.
    Some stores don’t allow their workers to tell customers “Merry Christmas,” but they have to say “Happy Holidays.”

    I used to watch a Christian lawyer show a lot, for years. It’s still on but I sometimes miss an episode here or there.
    Based on how the lawyer guy argues (I think he’s a a Jewish believer in Jesus – I just did a web search, his name is Jay Sekulow), when he defends having the Ten Commandments or whatever in public, he appeals to the fact that the symbol of the cross, or the 10 commandments (whatever it is) is not “Christian” or “religious” but of historic value, a part of our nation.

    That is how he usually wins his cases with judges.
    I believe this guy has even argued in front of the Supreme Court. He cannot defend the presence of Christian or biblical themed art, symbols, etc, in public when militant atheists have a fit and want it taken down, by saying, “We are a Christian nation,” but by the fact that the symbols can be considered secular in other contexts, and/or historic.

    I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know all the ins and outs of it or legalese, but that is what I’ve heard from watching his TV show where he discusses court cases.

    Liked by 2 people

  62. If you wish to read a well researched and scholarly work by a very balanced Historian. He deals with the subject are we a Christian Nation with humility and well researched impartial data. He has appeared on such educational shows such as Glen Beck. David Barton would be a good source concerning this issue.

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/abtbiodb.asp

    /sarcasm 🙂

    sorry.

    Like

  63. @ Bike Bubba said,

    Daisy, I don’t think Piper et al are against the prescription of birth control drugs, politically speaking. You may disagree with him on many issues–I do at times–but let’s keep our claims to what the gentlemen have actually said.

    You’ll note I added several qualifiers in my post, such as, “not all these men are as extreme as others.”

    Gender complimentarians (and maybe even patriarchy guys) all on a continuum, with some being worse than others. I pretty much made note of that in the post you are referring to.

    But I can guarantee you if John Piper ran America, he would strip away some of my freedoms on basis of my gender, or would try to, if not birth control pills than other areas – that was my point.
    Please don’t get hung up with the trees, look at the forest.

    Piper already seeks to do that by saying that I, a woman, cannot or should not give directions to lost men in cars, I cannot read a Bible to a man or in a church or whatever.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. P.S. Bike Bubba,
    one guy I mentioned, Kevin Swanson, who has a radio show is against birth control pills, IIRC.
    Julie Anne has done several posts about this Swanson guy. He teaches that women who use BCPs (Birth Control Pills) have dead babies in their bodies from using BCPs.

    And yes, some of the very, very uber conservative home schooling, Quivering type Christians are totally opposed to all BCP and/or to certain kinds, and only believe in “N.F.P.” (abstaining from sex etc).
    You can google this stuff to find it, like blogs by women who left the Quivering movement. They can verify what I’ve said here.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Ed said,

    This is a melting pot nation that people are supposed to assimilate in. We seem to have division, and that was not the intent of the founding fathers.

    But what are they supposed to be assimilating into these days?

    America of today does not even resemble the America I grew up in as a kid in the 1970s, 1980s. Many churches, the mega evangelical churches, are like a big circus tent with rock shows and the preacher is a showman. Those are the churches most people are attending, if they bother to go at all.

    _Muslims Converting Empty European Churches into Mosques_

    Even Christians who are staying Christians are leaving church:
    _The Rise of The Dones_

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Lydia’s comments of JANUARY 15, 2015 @ 11:42 AM

    Your post reminds me. I did a lot of reading several years ago about the differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.

    Some of these guys (the Catholics and I think some Protestants) were mixed up with state authority and politics and went around burning each other at the stake as heretics.
    Both the Catholics and the Protestants, IIRC, burned Anabaptists to death as heretics, because Anabaptists wanted to be left alone, they did not want to be on “Team Roman Catholic” or on “Team Protestant.”

    I don’t want to live under Mark Driscoll / Womb Tomb Swanson / Al Mohler / John Piper / Tony Miano / Owen Strachan / Wayne Grudem Christianized enforced, or legalized, Gender Role Sharia, as I was conveying in an earlier post.

    Liked by 2 people

  70. “Ed said:
    But, I keep harping on the Declaration of Independence, which uses supernatural wording.”

    Supernatural wording? Huh?

    Like

  71. Ed,
    People misuse words all the time. 🙂

    Brenda R & Gail,
    Yes, that’s basically what I meant. Biblically speaking, the term Christian is only used a couple of times, and it is used to refer to people who are believers, not as an adjective to modify other words. I know what people mean when they use “Christian” whatever, but I was pointing out it isn’t technically correct. My point in doing so is to demonstrate that phrases like “Christian nation” are debatable in part because it is hard to define exactly what that phrase means.

    Liked by 2 people

  72. Keith B asked,
    “Why should the preferences of the gentry liberals and social leftists be imposed upon us?”

    It looks to me as though it already has been.
    Even SBC guys have noted this, and are saying to change tact, when they give interviews or write blog pages now. They admitted defeat in the Battle of Homosexual Marriage, now they want to switch to arguing “don’t impinge on my Christian beliefs.”

    _Evangelical Leader Preaches Pullback From Politics, Culture Wars
    _
    “Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Convention says it is time for evangelicals to tone down the rhetoric.” (date: Oct 2013)

    Like

  73. I agree with Ed’s assertion that when the Framers use the word religion in the Constitution they specifically had Christianity in mind and their main intent was to avoid any sort of government promotion of one particular Christian denomination over another. Even though some of them had deistic views and some questioned the reliability and authority of the Bible, they were each part of one Christian denomination or another, and some form of Christianity was their common heritage and background. It is unlikely that they had other religions in mind, as anything other than Christianity was just not part of their routine experience.

    And I also agree that the Declaration of Independence is the foundational document for our country. It is the closest thing we have to a statement of the purpose or mission of our country. The United States came into existence with the Declaration, and the Constitution presupposes that the US already existed prior to the Constitution. “We the people of the United Stated, in order to form a more perfect union…” — that indicates (1) that there already was a United States and (2) that there already was a union, just not as perfect of one as desired. The Constitution can not be understood, interpreted or applied apart from the Declaration, as the Constitution is the “how” document, but the Declaration is the “why.”

    All that said, I also think the principles put forth in both documents were imperfectly applied by those who wrote them, and are still in some ways imperfectly applied today, and that we should always be seeking to apply them more fully.

    The Declaration’s statement that all men are created equal is true of all human beings, but the Founders themselves didn’t live up to that principle, as they held or permitted others to hold slaves. We have expanded the principle beyond its initial application, because the principle is universal.

    Likewise, when the Constitution guarantees that the government will not establish a religion or prevent the exercise of one, although the Framers had Christianity specifically in mind, the principle of government non-interference in and neutrality toward any denomination also applies to any other religion, and to no religion at all.

    Liked by 2 people

  74. Momma,

    Yes, thanks to you, I love learning and investigating. Early American history has always been an interest of mine no doubt helped by the fact I spent most of my life on the East Coast and the fun field trips to important historical locations.

    Liked by 2 people

  75. I’m sorry this is a wee bit off topic, but Ed said,

    That is my point as well. For a 3rd grader, the topic of hell is a bit out there. That surely isn’t what I knew in the 3rd grade. I think we were still in the coloring crayons coloring a donkey that Jesus rode on, or something.

    I felt awful when I watched a Christian guy on a local religious station several years ago complain that how most Christians teach Noah was not tough or gritty enough, in his view.

    This TV show host guy complained about how Christians made the Noah/ Flood story look too nice, with cartoony drawings of lions and zerbras, with a nice big ship and a rainbow.
    This host actually suggested to Christians, that to be accurate with kids, even kids as young as 5 yrs old, that in the future when making Noah coloring books / cartoon shows, to draw or show dead, bloated dead human bodies in the water. I am not kidding, he really said that, and he was being serious…
    Because he really wanted kids to be struck by how horrible sin is, etc etc.

    I was like, man oh man. I did not get scared into loving Jesus when I was a kid… I got mostly the sugary nice G-rated version of stuff, the sanitized version of Noah, and I took sin serious enough at that age, and I accepted Jesus as my savior before I turned ten. I think that guy was off his rocker.
    (Sorry to go off topic a little but Ed’s story brought that to mind)

    Like

  76. AnotherTom on January 15, 2015 at 5:21 PM

    I agree with the bulk of your comment. I have to add to one part of it though.

    The founders did not really believe in equality at all. They believed in “white male supremacy.” That was, in fact, the outcome of their actions. Native Americans, women, slaves, and children were not treated equally but as property and lesser beings without the same rights as “white men.” As a matter of fact, any nationality of human beings other than white men were usually treated poorly and unequally.

    Liked by 3 people

  77. ChapmanEd said,

    So, I disagree with saying that this nation is not a Christian Nation, but acknowledge that we have moved away from being a Christian Nation, all because some people get offended. Offended? Really? How can anyone be offended by FREEDOM, in which Christianity is the ONLY religion to give freedom. I don’t understand THAT concept.

    I’m not sure I understand you here.

    It’s not my opinion that our nation has become more secular and isn’t a Christian nation anymore, that is an observation based on what I see in the nightly news.

    I understand the fear of citizens not acknowledging that their rights come from God, because if people start saying those freedoms/rights come from man, or the state, than man/state can yank them away any old time.

    But still… I don’t know about things like obsessing about things like not letting kids read Bibles in classes, because once we get into topics like that, then the militant atheists pitch a fit, then your Muslims want the Jewish kids, the Christian kids, the atheist hearing stuff out of the Koran in class, etc. etc. It opens a can of worms.

    I’m not opposed to kids being allowed to read the Bible during break time at school, btw, but if it’s going to be this big deal, or the militant whomever’s are going to then use that as an excuse to work their beliefs into schools too, I think I would rather everyone drop the matter.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. Gail said,

    My opinion is that the genie has been let out of the bottle, so to speak, and we are not going to return to the days of praying in schools & on & on.

    I totally agree there. I think that is long gone.

    Liked by 1 person

  79. Re chapmaned24 JANUARY 15, 2015 @ 1:10 PM

    You keep bringing this up, that kids should be taught kid things and that you personally weren’t into doctrine or theology as a kid.

    I remember this stuff got started slowly in the 1980s, when I was a kid, this slow retraction of schools allowing Christianity to be openly expressed.

    Adults keep making this an issue.
    Some atheist / secular parents get hacked off in the 1980s over “Christmas” parties and “Christmas” carols, so schools didn’t want to offend them, and started calling that stuff “Winter Holiday.” That started when I was a school kid (to teen).

    It’s been a snowball effect since then, with more and more militant secular / atheist (and now Muslim) parents, and your general liberal groups, get all touchy about this and have gone even further with it.

    Some kids are interested in religion. I was interested in God at a very young age, even before grade school. I went to Sunday school. My mother used to buy me Bible story coloring books.
    My mom had Christian literature about the house I used to read, in addition to the Bible, like “Guideposts” magazine. I read Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” sometime around the age of 14 or so.

    In high school, in the 1980s, I had friends who were into Wicca, New Age, crystals, and tarot cards.

    Some kids may zone out over religion and find it boring, but some do not. Then others, the ones who get bored by it, are forced into it by their parents, whether the parents drag them to church weekly, or teach them there is no such thing as God.

    Like

  80. Bridget,
    I understand what you are saying. There is what we aspire to believe, and then there is what our actions reveal about what we actually believe. I think that when the founders spoke or wrote of equality, they had in mind the idea that all people were equal before God, in that no person possessed any special God-given rights that others did not possess (i.e., they were denying the doctrine of the divine right of kings). But they were (as are we) culture-bound in terms of practical application of the general principle.

    Liked by 2 people

  81. Someone was commenting about the use of God in oaths.
    _Air Force says ‘so help me God’ is optional for enlistment oath_

    September 2014
    The Air Force says airmen will now be allowed to omit the words “so help me God” from its enlistment oath – marking a change in policy that is being affirmed by both atheist and religious liberty groups.

    The decision comes after an airman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada struck out the words on his Department of Defense reenlistment paperwork and ran up against a policy that prohibits omissions.

    Like

  82. Keith Blankenship said,

    Atlanta Fire Chief Kelvin Cochran learned all about the newly-established religion of secularism when he was fired recently for what he wrote in a book. Ain’t that America?

    I just saw something in the news a few days ago. I wished I saved the link, but the boss of that guy said he wasn’t fired for anti homosexual remarks or over being a Christian.

    It sounds to me at first blush that was in fact why he was fired, but I found the boss’s explanation interesting regardless. Here is a summary of views about that situation, with views by different people:
    _‘Feeding the flames of religious bias:’ Was Atlanta’s fire chief dismissed for anti-gay statements in book?_

    I find it slightly humorous that the whole flap got started because the guy mentioned this stuff, that is considered controversial, in a book that is entitled, “Who Told You That You Were Naked.”

    But yes, 40 or even 20 years ago, possibly a little over ten years ago, his comments about homosexuality in the book would not have been an issue.

    Like

  83. Brenda R said,

    Don’t continue to insist that the use of the word “God” in a document indicates “Christian.” It does not. It is an ignorant, logical fallacy.

    This kind of attitude is exactly why our country is getting closer to jailing Christians for teaching the gospel.

    I don’t know. I think it’s more that people who have animosity towards Christians (or the Christian faith in particular) are selectively applying our nation’s rules and laws.

    I see exceptions made all the time for Non-Christian faiths. Muslims and others are usually treated with kid gloves, but the minute a lady wants to wear a cross necklace to work, or a kid wants to read the Bible on his lunch break, they get told all about separate of church and state and stuff.

    Liked by 2 people

  84. Julie Anne asked chapmaned,
    I can understand you saying it was a well-written document, but supernatural? How so? It was created by men? Are you saying it’s like the Bible?

    I think he means that some of the writers believed in the supernatural (a deity).

    I think that’s all he meant by “supernaturally written,” it just came out odd.

    He did say in another post he’s been up since 1 AM this morning. He’s probably half asleep while writing some of these. I know my writing can get weird or sloppy when I type drowsy.

    Of course whenever he visits the blog again, he can clarify for himself, that was just how I took his comments.

    Liked by 2 people

  85. Here’s the thing, guys: If you don’t want my kids telling your kids that there is no god, you pretty much have to be OK with your kids not telling my kids that there is one. If you don’t want Muslims requesting (public school) classroom carpet time in prayer to Allah, you can’t very well expect to get classroom time in prayer time to Jesus. If you expect me me to honor your Christianity, then you should honor my atheism. If neither of us tries to convert the other, if neither of us insist that we know the only truth, if neither of us is angry with the other because s/he believes something we don’t, if we treat each other with compassion and respect, and honor (and, gasp, even *explore*?!) our differences, won’t we both be richer for it. And isn’t that a GOOD thing that honors our humanity? How can this NOT be the way to regard those who are different than we are?

    I think FEAR is the opposite of love.

    Liked by 4 people

  86. carolsnider JANUARY 15, 2015 @ 7:09 PM

    I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote. About the conversion thing, though…. maybe not in public school grounds or during school hours, but the founder of Christianity did tell his followers,

    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    (Matthew 28:19)

    And I believe some factions of Islam believe in trying to win converts, though out of some of those, they believe they can also decapitate you if you refuse, or make you pay a special tax if they conquer your land.

    Also, Jevohah’s Witnesses try to win converts, and I think Mormons. They like to go door to door with their religious literature. I do think they have that right.

    No, I don’t particularly enjoy encountering them, but I don’t get angry or hostile. I understand that’s their right, and they are going along with their religious beliefs.

    Liked by 1 person

  87. “Chapman ed asked,

    “Why are third graders talking about religion instead of GIRLS?”

    Probably because all the adults are making all this an issue.”

    I think this originated from my post about my son. You know, we adults didn’t make it an issue at all. We probably should have made it more an issue than we did, before this ever happened, actually. As I stated, we didn’t ever talk about hell, as it’s not something we believe in. But yeah, I should have probably told my son that some people DO believe in it, and here’s what they believe. He was wholly unprepared, emotionally, for what he heard and couldn’t figure out why his friends were telling him he’d go to this awful place simply because he didn’t believe in God. (It wasn’t even that he didn’t believe; he was more just void of any specific belief about God, one way or another…being eight.)

    I think the thing that upset me, as a parent, most is that these kids didn’t come up with this stuff themselves.They heard it somewhere. They were TAUGHT that non-Christians go to this awful place called hell. Keep in mind that my son wasn’t being bullied. That is, these kids weren’t being intentionally cruel; they were more saying that they were going to heaven because they were “saved” (yes, that term was used) and my son was going to hell because he wasn’t.

    Put yourself in our position for a minute – my son’s and my mine, and ponder the question: was this spiritual abuse, inside-out?

    Carol

    Liked by 3 people

  88. “Also, Jevohah’s Witnesses try to win converts, and I think Mormons. They like to go door to door with their religious literature. I do think they have that right.”

    Right up to the point that they step onto my property.

    Liked by 3 people

  89. Carolsnider- I just love your comments. I err on the side that Jesus Christ adores you & loves you regardless if you love Him. How I wish you could know or taste a second of Him. Maybe you have, and I am making assumptions, if so, I am sorry. Not saying it is your fault if you haven’t, it wasn’t my conscience fault when I hated religious fanatics, I knew them by their rotten fruit & closed minded remarks. Going to get my shield in place now, I suspect the arrows will be hurled. Anywho, I hear ya!

    Liked by 2 people

  90. Last comment:

    ““Why are third graders talking about religion instead of GIRLS?”

    “Probably because all the adults are making all this an issue.”

    Yep, CarolS. nailed it! Embarrassed to admit, it was my daughter who peddled my indoctrination, 25 years ago. Sigh.

    Liked by 2 people

  91. I didn’t have a chance to read the other comments yet, but I am never really comfortable with the “teachers should not teach about or pray to Christ – unless they could also teach about and pray to Allah or the Hindu Gods” argument.

    It is like: “Nobody should be allowed to provide healthy food on school premises unless others are also allowed to provide poison on school premises.”

    Liked by 1 person

  92. “I didn’t have a chance to read the other comments yet, but I am never really comfortable with the “teachers should not teach about or pray to Christ – unless they could also teach about and pray to Allah or the Hindu Gods” argument.

    It is like: “Nobody should be allowed to provide healthy food on school premises unless others are also allowed to provide poison on school premises.””

    Retha, I don’t agree with the statement, ‘teachers should not teach about or pray to Christ – unless they could also teach about and pray to Allah’ at all. I think that who a teacher *prays* to is 100% her/his own business and should have nothing whatsoever to do with his/her profession. However, IF a teacher is going to teach about religion (in a public school) s/he should teach equally and objectively about a wide variety of religions, or about none at all. (If it’s a private school, everything changes, of course.)

    As far as ““Nobody should be allowed to provide healthy food on school premises unless others are also allowed to provide poison on school premises,” my reaction is “HUH??!” Are you equating Christianity with healthy food and atheism or paganism (or whatever) with “poison”? The fact that some regard Christianity as the “poison” and their own religion (or lack thereof) as the healthy food speaks DIRECTLY to why there should be complete separation of church and state. You can’t have it both ways.

    Carol

    Liked by 1 person

  93. Missdaisyflower:

    “What does happen in those cases, it seems to me, is that Christianity gets the short end of the stick. Public schools tip toe around the sensitivities of every single group out there except for Christians. They will let the Muslim kid read his Koran at recess but not let the Christian kid read his New Testament at recess.

    But anyway… if you start advocating to allow Christian anything in the public schools, the atheists and such demand they have a piece of the pie.

    I remember years ago, Satanist and atheist groups each demanded to have after school study clubs on school grounds because the Christian ones had after school Bible study clubs on campuses. ”

    If a public school teacher let the Muslim kid read his Koran at recess but not let the Christian kid read his New Testament at recess, s/he should be disciplined. If s/he let neither read their holy book or let both read their holy book, there is no discrimination. Them’s the facts.

    “Satanist and atheist groups each demanded to have after school study clubs on school grounds because the Christian ones had after school Bible study clubs on campuses”? Again, this is why there should be NO religion in public schools, anywhere. I may not agree with Satanism (is there even such a religion?), and I may agree with atheism… but I think that either all of them should be allowed to meet or none should. Do you? It sounds like you believe that Christian groups should be able to meet, but other groups should perhaps not. Or did I misunderstand you?

    Carol

    Liked by 2 people

  94. Hanna,

    At 3:10 PM, you said:
    ” It states we have rights – “to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men”. ”

    My response:
    Can you quote the whole paragraph, or are you purposefully leaving out the supernatural wording to that paragraph?

    Next, you quoted James Madison, so I will, too:
    “James Madison
    4th U.S. President

    “A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.”
    –Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772

    Next, you never answered the question as to WHY would it be necessary for our side to even mention what our nations thoughts on theology in the first place.

    What I see from you is the following:
    See, it’s there, that settles it.

    Well, for me, it does not settle it. It is NOT normal protocol to inform any nation in a treaty what our beliefs are, or are not. So, WHY THIS ONE? What was the importance to mention it? What was the strategic reasoning behind it? What United States interest was there in having a treaty with Tripoli in the first place? What would have been the repercussions of our relationship with Tripoli had we not mentioned it?

    Seems to me that you are not asking any of the Why questions.

    Everyone around the world KNOWS that we are a Christian nation. That is no secret. Why is it so hard for our own people to admit it?

    Look, Hannah, my roommate is an atheist. And he acknowledges that this nation is a Christian nation. He just admits that he doesn’t believe in the God that our founders did. But he doesn’t fight against it, as some atheists do.

    Anyway, I’m only awake for a moment. Be back tomorrow. Have a good night.

    Ed

    Like

  96. Carolsnider,

    You had asked:
    How does your freedom differ from mine?

    I think the question needs to be in this: Why are atheists taking away my rights as a Christian? What used to be Christian TRADITION is being changed, all because someone gets offended. So, you wanna talk about rights? Really? Christians do not have the right to very much these days. All because someone is yelling and screaming that we are not a Christian nation and they have rights. Well, you know what? Christians are losing rights, day by day, all because of YOUR rights.

    That’s how my freedom differs from yours. I don’t have the right or the freedom that I used to…IN MY OWN LIFETIME, to worship God the way that I see fit, based on my conscience, because YOUR side is taking my rights away. The ACLU is on every single case against Christianity TRADITION. Then there is that whack job REVEREND Barry Lyn, I think his name is, that is on the team of Freedom FROM Religion (Not freedom of, in this case, either), and his team is like the ACLU fighting against Christian TRADITIONS.

    Rights, huh? Ya, OK then.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  98. Most likely this is apostate, as I most likely am. I wonder why God needs a “nation”? I think it is clear that the USA is founded under a myriad of traditions, most of them being some type of Christian tradition but some would have anathema each other as far as who is a true Christian. Our nation was also founded under a great deal of violence and injustice mixed with hope for justice, like most nations. Do I think the Creator of the entire universe focused on this nation and its particular form of government and history, of course not, that is just silly. Do I think the Creator of the entire universe focused on individual people who resided or reside in this nation, of course, a loving father could do no less. Being the universalist heathen I am, I actually believe God focuses on every single individual life and will eventually restore said life to God from which said life came.

    I think the “Christian Nation” card is played for apologetic reasons and it is also played for a far more important and holy reason, economics. Cash is king, if you think not try getting in the way of the cash flow and watch what happens, even God could not reach you in such an event. I always found this funny our nation was founded in rebellion and in enlightenment thinking, many of our founding fathers were masons, of course that sets off the bugaboo alarms on the outer fridge of the evangelical jargonaut. A 33 degree mason offered my mother free medical intervention when her stupid blank six year old son decided to be a roman candle and caught on fire, he offered total care for free. My mother, not being an evangelical but understanding the maxim one always takes care of ones self, even at six. People never need, ever. That is one truth I have gained from the American Church. I get it, trust me I do.

    I appreciate what my 33rd degree mason neighbor offered, from the true church, not so much. Trust me I dont blame them, even at six a kid should be fully aware of all possibilities that might cost your family / church / ? income and should mitigate such potential loss. I did try at six, I prayed God kill me, that was the first time I prayed God kill me, when the hell night terrors happened. I always figured I had it coming being catholic, born in original sin we are filthy sin filled filth but I did not fully understand just how horrid I was to God until I became an evangelical Christian. Some may think this is easy to post, it is me seeking attention, in a sense I am, seeking help, which I know is disgusting as a Christian, we are islands unto ourselves and we overcome as individuals, always. Well we dont but that is a different post.

    I still have those dreams, I do try to avoid them by not sleeping for well days. But being weak I do sometimes sleep for an hour here or there. I have gotten better, really better, sleeping even five or six hours a night, since being part of PP, SSB, WW, because you people listened. A few times, nope many times I wept when many of you wept with me, Michael and WW and Julie Anne showed me another road. I am thankful for that. I am not much of a human being, never claimed to be, but I still think God is my Father. May He have mercy on me. When all else is said and done, its all any of us have. I call that good news.

    Liked by 4 people

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)