Learn to Discern

Are We a Christian Nation or Not?

Julie Anne

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The marital rape post started veering off into a political direction and as I read through some of it, I think it is a topic worthy of discussion here.

I’ll use Ed’s last post as a starting off point and add a few of my words (which Ed probably won’t like), but he’ll still be my friend – lol.

 

Marsha,
Sorry but I disagree. However, I will say that when I first learned of the certain sect of Christianity that are pushing their hard line right wing agenda’s, I stopped labeling myself as a conservative Christian, although I am conservative that is a Christian. I believe that there are Christians on both sides of the aisle, progressive, etc. But, how many progressives nationwide believe in God vs. the conservatives?

Who is changing Christmas to winter break? When we used to say, Happy Holidays, it was because there were two holidays, Christmas and New Years Day. It used to be that all faiths (except Jews) celebrated Christmas, even atheists. Now all of a sudden the rest of us have to endure a “winter break” greeting? When I hear that, I ask, “What Holiday?” Things are getting nuttier in America these days.

I agree that it didn’t have the 2/3 vote, but it still had a majority that did not want God in the platform at all. So, the question in my mind is NOT how many voted for or against. My question is for those who voted against it, why did they vote against it? The majority voted against it, but the minority was called the winner. That was not right, based on the call for a vote.

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When I went to public elementary school in San Jose, California. I remember praying in class – we’re talking early 70s (yea, I turned 50 a few months ago – OY).  The school holidays were named after religious holidays:  Easter break, Christmas break.

Now I have kids in public school.  One school is filled with predominantly Mormon students and one day a Mormon student asked the public school teacher if they could pray before an event. I was there and witnessed this.  This was not on school grounds and the teacher said yes.  What if it was a Muslim student asking to pray in front of the whole class? Would I (or you) be okay with that?

I saw Brenda R.’s comment about Sharia law and did not find it offensive at all. Do you have any European friends? They will likely tell you how the religious landscape of their countries has changed in the past decade or so. Muslims have come into their countries in droves, buying land, sometimes attempting to get Sharia law integrated into the laws of their new land. The way I look at this is it is no different than the Christian Reconstructionists trying to infiltrate our US government and impose Old Testament laws into our current legal system.  I have big problems with that, too!

So, my opinion is:  let’s have Winter break and Spring break for schools. I don’t want Christ taught in public schools. I want my kids to be educated in the three Rs in public school and leave the religious education to the parents. I don’t mind a class on a survey of religions, but I don’t want our public schools to focus on Christianity as the foundational religion (even if I believe it to be so). We may have Buddhist teachers, Mormon teachers, etc, in our schools. We may have teachers who believe in Benny Hinn theology, etc.

So there’s my opinion. What’s yours? Please be careful when posting – this topic can get heated!

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photo credit: JeepersMedia via photopin cc

433 thoughts on “Are We a Christian Nation or Not?”

  1. OK, so I will respond to Julie Anne in this first.

    Julie Anne, you had said:
    “So, my opinion is: let’s have Winter break and Spring break for schools. I don’t want Christ taught in public schools. I want my kids to be educated in the three Rs in public school and leave the religious education to the parents. I don’t mind a class on a survey of religions, but I don’t want our public schools to focus on Christianity as the foundational religion (even if I believe it to be so). We may have Buddhist teachers, Mormon teachers, etc, in our schools. We may have teachers who believe in Benny Hinn theology, etc.”

    Whoa. I totally disagree with that. We should do as we always have done based on tradition, and that is say what it is. Christmas Break, not winter break.

    Now, while we may agree on Christ not being taught in school, that was not even the premise of what I was discussing at all.

    People voluntarily brought Christ to school.

    When I was in Jr. High, I was on the football team. Before the game, we were in the locker room, and our coach lead a prayer with the whole team. Be it known, that after he retired from the school district, he became a minister in a local church. Just a few short years ago, he passed away, and he was loved by many, because he taught school for many years, and coached not only football, but basketball and baseball, too.

    The concept that no one believed in God or Jesus was not even a thought in anyone’s mind.

    I do not see a reason that anyone needs to “ask permission” to pray, or to talk about God in school. We voluntarily brought God to school. I grew up at the same time that you did, Julie Anne. I too am 50. So this concept of no God in school is very foreign to me. You didn’t need to ask permission, because it was already a given.

    Ed

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  2. Oh wow! You just opened up a powder keg!

    Are we a Christian nation? Well, the Supreme Court in 1896 said we are, but in all honesty, unless we are a theocracy, we can’t be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or any other religious country.

    Yes, many of our founders were Christians. Some were deists, though the definition of deist changed over the last couple of centuries. There were many Judeo Christian roots to our laws; however, that does not make us Christian.

    For over a century, the vast majority of the population identified themselves as Christians, but how much of that was because they were cultural Christians, rather than being actual Christians in the truly Biblical sense? But we have to face facts. Our country has changed. There is a much broader demographic mix here and Christians are becoming more and more the minority.

    What that means is that we are having to realize that the changing landscape means we are faced with the fact that we cannot conflate Christianity with our government structure. We also have to face the fact that freedom of religion means just that, freedom for all religions, whether we disagree with them or not.

    So instead of getting offended that Christmas break is being replaced with Winter break, use it as an opportunity as individual Christians to spread our beliefs about Christmas. We cannot count on government support to give us a monopoly on religious speech.

    The rub is that the pendulum has swung too far the other direction to the point of not allowing Christians to speak at all in some cases. I am talking about cases where students wanted to pray, with no teacher involvement, but were not allowed to. I’m talking about cases where students were not allowed to bring religiously themed cookies to school to share with their classmates, or are not allowed to read their Bibles on their free reading time. Yet, students of other religious beliefs are allowed to express them. In some cases, students are being taught to pray Islamic prayers, in the school and forced to participate.

    I guess what I am saying is that the rules need to be applied evenly. If one religion is not allowed, none should be. If expression of a religion is allowed, then all should be. The state should be neutral, up to the point where religious expression becomes violent.

    As Christians, we will remain so whether the state is overtly Christian or not. The two have nothing to do with each other.

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  3. The secularising elements have completed most of their goals. There really was no “culture war’, just a series of retreats. The question of what we “were” is unimportant to the secularisers, who care about what we will be tomorrow. Their victory is almost complete. Even the theistic oath is disappearing from courts.

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  4. So, what say you, Ed, when your kids go to a predominantly public school filled with Mormons and they want to do things their Mormon way? See, that’s what’s happening in some communities, they are going with the popular religion. Because it’s likely not going to be mine, or if it is mine, I’m still questioning what they believe about roles of men and women, and other topics. I don’t mind students praying before games – quietly by themselves – because there may be a mixed bag of religions represented.

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  5. As a public school teacher (6th grade music) I can tell you that in our school, 6th graders learn about several religions in their social studies class. Christianity is barely spoken about but a great deal of time is spent on several other religions. I agree with Wendell in that “rules need to be applied evenly” – and so should the curriculum. It would be difficult, I would think, to adequately address political, social, etc., history and impact without addressing the role various religious systems have played, but to leave out the Christian impact on history and society while including other religions does a disservice to our students.

    As a side note, my school still has students recite the Pledge of Allegiance and we still say “under God.” That’s becoming a rarity.

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  6. I do not see a reason that anyone needs to “ask permission” to pray, or to talk about God in school. We voluntarily brought God to school. I grew up at the same time that you did, Julie Anne. I too am 50. So this concept of no God in school is very foreign to me. You didn’t need to ask permission, because it was already a given.

    Ok, so how would you feel if your daughter was still in public school and a Scientologist opened up in prayer at the beginning of the school day?

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  7. Wendell,

    I think that the atheists already know what we think in that regard, which is why they fight against it. So, all the sharing the gospel to them does what?

    With all due respect to YOUR beliefs, I firmly disagree. Christianity is based on FREEDOM, and no other religion is. None whatsoever.

    Christian religion believes that Freedom comes from God. No other religion believes that.

    Christian religion believes that it is God that gives us the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. No other religion believes that.

    Thomas Jefferson said:
    “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event.”
    –Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.”

    Why does he tremble? He trembles FOR HIS COUNTRY, but why? What is this nations foundation according to him? God, who gave us liberty. Did man give us liberty, or God?

    John Adams said:
    “”The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

    “Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.”
    –Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

    Yes, we are a Christian nation, with all due respect.

    It’s people’s rights to not believe, and that is fine, but those unbelievers live in a Christian nation.

    By saying that we are a Christian nation is NOT an admission that we are a theocracy. A theocracy tells a church how to conduct business. It does not dictate that unbelievers are to believe. But they reside in a nation that it’s liberty came from the Christian God, hence this nation is a Christian nation.

    Ed

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  8. There is an excellent booklet available from the U.S. Department of Education, the Baptist Joint Committee on Religious Liberty, and a number of other organizations across the civil rights and religious communities. The legal standard is that a teacher or coach cannot lead prayers, teach about faith or religion (except in class that relates to cultural or historical issues, and then only in a balanced, non-proselytizing manner), or read from the Bible, Quran, etc. in class. However, a student may write or speak on such topics, also in a non-proselytizing manner, and may not be graded down or subjected to punishment for doing so, so long as the student does not impinge on the religious freedom of other students. Students may pray as long as not disturbing other students (generally silently) and students may organize a religious club and meet on school property to pray together, on the same basis that other student organized groups meet. The school may require an adult sponsor and may require that the sponsor be a school employee, but the sponsor is not to be teaching or advocating a particular religion while in that role. During free reading periods, a student may read from a religious book, such as the Bible or Quran.

    Winter Holiday break is a reasonable accommodation to those who do not celebrate Christmas. “Happy Holidays” does not omit Christmas, but it does include other holidays in that same time frame.

    BTW, on the east side of the Cleveland, OH metro area, there is a community where the school population is 99% Jewish, but of different sects within Judaism, and they have religious liberty issues between the different groups.

    Re: Sharia Law: Sharia law is generally like the older common law in many parts of the world. A local group of elders decides what the law is applicable to a dispute, based on their reading of the Quran and other religious writings. That has created a body of law over the centuries, with variations in different locations and sects. So far, the only application in most of the West is when a contract between parties states, by agreement, that any dispute under the contract will be decided in accord with Sharia law. Similar choice of law clauses are in many U.S. contracts where the law of a particular state is selected by agreement.

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  10. I don’t believe we are, nor ever have been a “Christian nation”. I think that many of our ancestors who traveled over here to this land were Christians, but not all. The Native Americans were here long before we were, yet would a Christian people treat these natives the way they were treated? How would Jesus have treated them? Would Jesus have enslaved a race of people, deny them their rights, liberty, equality, dignity, respect afforded to those who were not people of color, or those whose land we took? No!

    There is a reason for the separation of Church and State. The men who goverened this land knew that many of those who sailed here were escaping spiritual tyrrany under a ruthless king. They wanted spiritual freedom, without any one doctrine or belief system to become mandated and forced upon all citizens. Otherwise, it would have been no different than the life they were fleeing.

    So, no, this is not, nor ever has been a Christian Nation. We have the freedom to choose what to believe, and in Whom to believe, or to not believe at all. Religion must remain separate from education, politics, or State governance, even though we may hold our beliefs just as importantly.

    The Christian Right, the Reconstructionists, the NAR,and those like them, seem to be trying to create a new form of tyrrany, much like in the days of King George, that caused the fleeing of our ancestors. What kind of progress is that, when we are forced to go back to the days of persecution and oppression?

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  11. Julie Anne,

    We had no concept of “Scientology” when I grew up. That is foreign to me, as well. I didn’t learn of that until the 80’s when L. Ron Hubbard came out with Dienetics (may be misspelled).

    However, to answer that, if we already have a firm foundation of Christianity, as taught in church, and at home, then you would already know that Scientology, or Buddha is not equated to Jesus Christ. Both of those didn’t give us freedom, from which our nation was founded on.

    It’s a bit disigenuis to teach our children the Declaration of Independence in school, deleting the word Creator, and the rights that the creator gave us. And we should know that no other religion gives freedom, but Christianity.

    So, is history classes telling the truth? No. They are skirting the issue, so as not to offend anyone. That is not being honest. If history is going to be taught, then the beliefs of such need to be taught as well.

    I had to memorize the Gettysburg Address in the 5th Grade.

    Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    Where did liberty come from four score and seven years ago? Created? By who?

    Paragraph 2 talks about a resting place. Where did we get a concept that people who die are at rest? From the Bible.

    Paragraph 3
    “…that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

    So, do we delete the word God from history just because someone is offended?

    How can you teach history without God? President Lincoln had no problem in a public address saying UNDER GOD. In public. To the Public. Why are we afraid to repeat the words of Abraham Lincoln?

    Ed

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  12. ‘Winter Holiday’ Come on, that is complete cultural dispossession, pure and simple. Secularism has become a sort of established faith.

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  13. Ed: Agreed. Why does SCOTUS continue to permit religious diplays in their courtroom? Because until fairly recently, such things as “Christmas Break” were not considered an establishment of religion.

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  16. I disagree with Ed. In particular, the 18th century references to God are not necessarily to Christ and therefore not specifically “Christian”. And while a majority of the people living in the original 13 colonies were Christians, many were of other religions, and many were discriminated against by Christians for being of a different sect or denomination of Christians. That is why the Constitution, including the Amendments thereto, do not reference Christianity. As a “born again believer in Jesus Christ”, I do not want the public schools, the justice system, courts, etc., to favor Christians over non-Christians, nor to impose on me and mine, their version of Christianity. Formal legal and practical neutrality in the public sphere is necessary to preserve my freedom to practice my faith as I choose.

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  17. Ed, I can’t believe you didn’t answer my question. Read it again, please:

    Ok, so how would you feel if your daughter was still in public school and a Scientologist opened up in prayer at the beginning of the school day?

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  19. An Attorney: Why should I care what the Baptist Joint Committee has to say about anything? Or the DOE for that matter. All that matters is who has the power to get their like-minded justices on the bench. The secularisers have accomplished this, and quite well. If you have power and money, you get what you want.

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  21. An Attorney,

    Our government recognized the word Christmas as a Holiday, regardless of any other religions holiday on December 25. And I don’t know any other religions holiday on December 25, but for Christmas.

    Ed

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  23. And for those who continue to suggest it, the word “Creator” does not necessarily equal “Christ” and is not of necessity a reference to the Christian God.

    However, my own personal belief is that the second person of the Trinity was present and was in fact the creator of the universe, and the three persons in one of the Trinity are equal and not distinguishable except during the life-time of the second person on earth.

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  24. Julie Anne,

    If there is already a firm foundation in my daughter’s belief, then I have nothing to worry about when another religion begins to proselytize my daughter.

    Where does that firm foundation begin? If she begins to have doubt, thereby believing in the other religion, then that tells me that there was no firm foundation laid in her.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  26. An Attorney,

    I don’t believe in a trinity. I believe in
    1. spirit (john 4:24) = Father
    2. body (the body of Christ, which is Jesus) = Son
    3. soul (the mind of Christ) = the Holy Spirit)

    Some of our founding fathers, who, by the way, were Christians, had a problem with the trinity thing, too.

    Ed

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  27. Christmas as practiced in the U.S. is a secular, commercial holiday. Tree, wreath, etc., are secular symbols whose roots are pagan and not Christian. For those looking for sources, try Google for population statistics in Colonial America. There were many of Jewish faith, some Muslims (not called that at the time), Deists, and people of no professed faith at all. In addition, many of the more recently arrived slaves were animists until beaten into Christianity. And much of the Christian population did not celebrate Christmas until late in the 19th century and some not until in the 20th century. Some Christian groups thought that Christmas was a pagan celebration that dishonored Christ.

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  28. Ed, are atheists the only group besides Christians? Of course not, but even atheists sometimes come around.

    We are citizens of two sovereign and distinct realms. One is the United States, which is and will be temporary. It is governed by man, and increasingly men (and women) who do not recognize, nor desire to live by God’s statutes. Many are antagonistic toward them. They refuse to recognize the Christian underpinnings of our founding documents and in many ways undermine them.

    These people were elected to office by a population that agrees with their worldview. These people may call themselves Christian, but either are lying or are deluded, having no understanding of what Christianity is. In many ways, they are practical atheists.

    So, how is a country that is increasingly removing Christianity from its cultural expressions, laws and mores Christian? At best, we are Christian in name only. I acknowledge and appreciate the quotes attributed to our founding fathers. I am well steeped in the roots and heritage of our country; however, that does not change the fact that we are no longer operating as a Christian nation. We are, at best a secular nation which includes Christians among its population and has a strong Christian influence in its history. Unfortunately, by our actions and the erosion of our beliefs, we have ceased to be practicing as a Christian nation.

    Assuming we were divinely inspired as a nation, remember what God did to the northern kingdom of Israel when they became apostate and repeatedly fell into sin. He divorced and scattered them. To this day, they are not a distinct people group. Do you think that God would have a different standard for us? If we are to be truly a Christian nation, that will require that we continue to live as one, which we currently are not doing. Saying that we are a Christian nation, simply because we started that way does not mean we still are. It is like saying that I am a Christian because my great grandfather, and grandfather were. The faith has to be owned by each generation.

    The other kingdom we are a part of (if a person is truly Christian) is the eternal kingdom of God, which supersedes and will endure long past the eventual dissolution of the US. It is there that our primary loyalties lie and it our citizenship in that kingdom that will sustain us no matter what earthly political structure we are in.

    Also, do you think that God cares more for a country, or the people that are within it? Countries are not saved, people within them are. We can work to change laws and that is fine, but changing laws does not change people’s hearts and that is what God is primarily concerned with.

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  30. Are we or were we a Christian nation? We are whatever those with power and influence say we are, and to them the history is a mere irritant.

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  31. JA: I can say that my children would probably suffer spiritual abuse if they were in the government schools. I got a little of that when I was in government schools myself.

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  35. An Attorney,

    You said:
    “Christmas as practiced in the U.S. is a secular, commercial holiday. Tree, wreath, etc., are secular symbols whose roots are pagan and not Christian”

    I beg to differ. Saint (NOTE THE WORD SAINT) Nick actually existed. His last name was Klaus (spelling may be wrong). He was a Christian that gave gifts to people without being obvious that it was him that was the one giving gifts.

    Now, everyone already acknowledges that we know not the actual birth date of Jesus. But, we have the right to celebrate any HOLY days as we see fit, according to Romans 14, I think it is. And if we do, it is HOLY to us, not pagan.

    Romans 14:5-6
    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  36. Julie Anne,

    You ask:
    “Are any of you concerned about spiritual abuse that could occur to your own children on school grounds with religion allowed there?”

    Well, I suppose that I would first ask, what age group begins to talk religion in school? When I was in school, “religion” was not an issue. But, I sort of remember that kids were more interested in playing 4-Square, or softball or swings, or, dare I say, “GIRLS”!!!!!!!!

    Religion was not a topic for children when I grew up. As I said, it was already a given that we all believed in God. So, with that in mind, GIRLS!!!!!!! Baseball, Basketball, football was on people’s minds, not religion.

    Ed

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  37. Well, Ed, things are different where I am with the large population of Mormons and a seminary attached to every school. Religion is much more on the minds of some students than you would think. If the majority of the high school students are attending seminary each day during the school day (as a class), and then come back on campus, they are discussing what happened at seminary, so all of the non-Mormons would definitely be exposed.

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  39. JA: What do you mean by writing that a seminary is attached to every school? I have never heard of this.

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  40. Scientologists get “clear” i think. They use these little machines to get rid of their engrams.

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  41. As a public school teacher (6th grade music) I can tell you that in our school, 6th graders learn about several religions in their social studies class. Christianity is barely spoken about but a great deal of time is spent on several other religions. I agree with Wendell in that “rules need to be applied evenly” – and so should the curriculum.

    Ellen, thanks for sharing your perspective as a public school teacher. I see that you teach music. Now that’s one thing that I love about music in public schools – – that they can and do teach sacred music. In high school choral competitions, teachers usually include one sacred music piece. The judges are looking for historical music (which is most often sacred). I also appreciation the inclusion of other cultures/religions; ie, African tribal music, etc.

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  43. Some people think we have a witness place their hand on a Bible and then administer an oath that ends with the phrase “… so help me God.” We don’t, at least not in my state. In my courtroom we administer an oath/affirmation that goes like this: “Do you promise that the testimony you shall give in the cause now pending before this court will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?”

    Anyone who lies after promising to tell the truth exposes themselves to a possible perjury charge, which can lead to up to three years in prison. It’s all designed to get people to recognize the gravity of the situation and the importance of being truthful, candid and forthright (which, by the way, are the same things the Bible tells us to strive for when testifying in court, e.g., Proverbs 21:28 and 24:28, Exodus 23:1, Deuteronomy 19:16-19).

    Some people will still append “… so help me God” when responding to the oath. I don’t tell them not to, nor do I ask them for a doctrinal statement in order to know whether they are referring to the one true God I believe in or something else. If they tell the truth they glorify God whether they know him or not.

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  44. Keith said:

    JA: What do you mean by writing that a seminary is attached to every school? I have never heard of this.”

    Oh yea, evidently it’s the law that when your children go to public schools, they can also have a religious class of their choosing. Mormons frequently have buildings located adjacent to campuses or right across the street or buy homes to serve as seminaries. I don’t know how they did it, but the seminary at the local high school here is located on a piece of property next to the parking lot. So if students request to go to seminary (Um, I think their Mormon parents make them – lol), it is included in part of their school schedule and they are expected to go off campus to the seminary and be back at the next class period. I don’t know if this is done at the elementary school, but at the 3 high schools I have volunteered at (one in Oregon and 2 in WA), this is the way it is.

    Here’s an article I found describing its growth. In this article, they say the classes are before and after school. They are also during the school day at our public schools. At any time of the school day, you can see students walk over to the seminary. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865578896/LDS-seminary-enrollment-reaches-all-time-high.html?pg=all

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  45. Julie Anne,

    Seminary, huh? Is this a religious school? What is the basis for the seminary? History only, or proselytizing, or due to that is already your belief system?

    The problem that I see as far as different religions in school is the neglect of the teachings of the firm foundation of THIS nation, and the redefining, all due to this new concept of “offending” people of differing beliefs.

    For example, France is having a problem of a particular religion, all because they never assimilated into French culture.

    E-Pluribus Unum.
    E Pluribus Unum still appears on U.S. coins even though it is no longer the official national motto! That honor was given to In God We Trust in 1956 by an Act of Congress (36 U.S.C. § 302.)

    Ed

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  46. Scientologists get “clear” i think. They use these little machines to get rid of their engrams.

    I’m not sure what to make of this response, but seeing Tom Cruise’s public behavior, I supposed anything is possible.

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  48. I had a unique experience in the school I attended while living in the KSA. The school was primarily organized according to American standards. However, because the students attending were children of Aramco employees, my classmates were a mix of American, Canadian, Australian, Egyptian, Indian, Philipino, Saudi Arabian, Jordanian, some from African countries . . . I can’t even remember all of them. We all got along just fine.

    Like Ed said above, most kids that age are not primarily interested in religion. I don’t ever remember it being an issue with such a diverse group of kids. We focused on our studies, school dances, parties, vacations.

    As to weather we are a “Christian” nation, I don’t know. Whatever the founders’ personal beliefs, I think they were fully aware that a “religious state” could be a very abusive one. We see that happening in some countries today. I think that’s why they wanted to keep the religious and civil spheres separate, Each man could follow his own conscience in regards to religious matters.

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  49. I am talking about seminaries connected to PUBLIC schools

    So then it is only Christians that are being penalized in school. The atheist that got prayer taken out of school didn’t care about driving out any religion other than that of Christians. Tom Cruise will be so relieved. He can get a scientology seminary started.

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  50. Here’s a picture of a local high school and the seminary marked. The building is quite large as you can see. The kids have to walk out of their HS building, through the parking lot to get to the seminary.

    seminary

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  51. America was FOUNDED on the importance of freedom of religion and separation of church and state. (Our first war was fought for these constructs!) So for me, it’s very simple: we are, by definition NOT a Christian (*or any other religion*) nation.

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  54. JA, I’ve not heard of any Christian programs in public schools anywhere that I have lived. Not being allowed during the school day. I have heard of kids being reprimanded for praying even on their own time. Sad state of affairs.

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  55. Julie Anne,

    That’s a new one on me. I don’t know why the law allowed it, when it does not allow it for other beliefs. However, I heard of a school back east somewhere that was allowing Muslim Prayer rooms with their magic carpets, while preaching that candy canes are not allowed because it has something to do with Christmas.

    I think our nation is BABYLON (Confused), as to what to do, all because they never got synced into their minds the fundamental truths of the foundation of THIS nation.

    When President Obama was asked about whether we are an exceptional nation, his answer was that we are no different than the other nations in their exceptionalism. The person that asked the question did not ask it for the purpose of learning, but for the purpose of seeing what he thought.

    Now, if you were to ask President Ronald Reagan, he invoked God in almost every speech that he ever gave (I am being a bit sarcastic in saying that, but…). He knew where and why our nations beginnings came from, and he had no problem telling people.

    Our founding fathers were not afraid of our founding, they were afraid of our future turning away, just like we are now doing. Thomas Jefferson TREMBLES at the thought of us turning away from our foundation. Well, we are here.

    Ed

    Like

  56. JA: Scientologists believe people are afflicted with engrams, sort of a psychological insult that must be dealt with so that a person can become “clear”. The use a galvanometer as a way of measuring these.

    Tim: I see the theistic oath being omitted more and more even here. Not surprised that they don’t use it in California. When did it fall into disuse?

    Re: ‘Seminaries” I hope no tax dollars are supporting them, directly or indirectly.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. Carolsnider,

    I respect your opinion, but what other religion believes that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are God given rights, but Christianity? The words, “Among those” indicates that we have many more God given rights beyond the three mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. No other religion believes in all of those rights coming from God, but Christianity. If there is another, please list those.

    Ed

    Like

  59. Tim: the demise of the theistic oath is just more evidence of cultural dispossession. Did it constitute an “establishment of religion”? It did (does) not, but SCOTUS may well tell us it does, at some point in the future. Again, power and money decide these things.

    Like

  60. Brenda R – the links I gave include video but scroll down and the info that I was referring to is in print.

    Like

  62. My take on prayer in schools is that it will always reflect the dominant religion. In my part of the country, it’s ELCA lutheranism or Catholicism. Back in college, it was….well, hard to describe, but certainly not Orthodox Christianity of any stripe. I remember asking God to forgive me for being there when one person offered a “prayer” at my college graduation. It was that bad. Think Rev. Lovejoy from the Simpsons, but after a joint or two and perhaps on a bad acid trip.

    Regarding the history, my take is along the lines of the music teachers’ above. Present the evidence as it is. Christians took a great part in the founding and furthering of our country, and that of Europe. Sometimes that was a good thing, sometimes it was pretty ugly. As much as we can, let’s let our ancestors speak for themselves–let people read the Mayflower Compact, Pilgrim’s Progress, the 1688 Bill of Rights, the real letters from participants at Gettysburg, and the like. Doing so will get rid of a lot of the politics that regrettably infests our schools.

    And I’m one that really does not like the Pledge of Allegiance. To the flag? Huh? What about the Constitution instead, or the principle of limited government? “One nation under God” is about the only worthwhile part of it.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. The Declaration of Independence states in part, the following:

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ”

    Notice that it is the Governments Job to PROTECT God given rights, not man given rights. So, do we separate God from Government when the government is to protect rights given by God? The government MUST acknowledge God. We are not a secular nation with that in mind.

    I’ve debated some old timers that are atheists, and they say that the Declaration of Independence is not an official founding document. I beg to differ.

    According to the Department of Immigration web site, they view the Declaration of Independence as a PROMISE, and the Constitution as a FULFILLMENT of that promise.

    God’s NOT Dead, even in government.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  64. To recap some of what I said under Chapmaned’s post under that last thread. (Part 1)

    Even if our nation started out as a Christian nation – I believe some of the founders respected the Bible and Christian faith, even if they were not Christian – our culture today has veered away from that.

    The United States is so very politically correct now, and it looks like people who are more left wing have won the majority of the culture wars, that it no longer resembles a “Christian nation”.

    Though in reality, it may be?, but the perception to me is that it is not so – for example (this is an example only, I don’t mean to start a debate about abortion), polls of the last few years show most Americans do not support abortion, but one would get the idea everyone in the country is pro-choice from the way the media talks about the topic.

    It just looks to me that the nation has become so very secular – it’s more post-Christian, like Europe now, than it is Christian.

    I’m also tired of the culture wars and think Christians and Republicans may be misusing their time and energy fighting about it all the time and using politics to fight about it.

    Liked by 2 people

  65. Bike Bubba,

    The “religions” that you mentioned are Christian. Our founding fathers had no problem with differing Christian beliefs. That was the beauty of it, in that no one government was going to dictate which CHRISTIAN denomination was the dominate one. But it was still Christian, none the less.

    Ed

    Like

  66. I’m not really fond of the Supreme Court. They are lifers and can wreak a lot of havoc while they are there. They do not reach back to the minds of our founding fathers or the sentiment of any of their writings, they go with their own personal beliefs as far the what the Constitution says and the way they want it to read. There was a time when both the Bible and “so help me God”. were appropriate in court. Our country has fallen so much in the past century, it is truly scary.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Missdaisyflower,

    I agree with you. I think that we need to get back to our roots, as painful as that would be for some. Now, bringing religion into it, God is always saying, “Come Back to ME, and I will bless you.”

    God blesses the NATION that their God is the LORD. That is in the book of Psalms.

    Why should we neglect such a blessing?

    Ed

    Like

  69. “Are any of you concerned about spiritual abuse that could occur to your own children on school grounds with religion allowed there?”

    Curious whether any of you would consider this spiritual abuse:

    When my son was in third grade (in our public neighborhood school), he was told by a group of his friends that, because he wasn’t Christian, he would be going to hell. (Unfortunately… “you’re my friend, I’ll miss you…” how confusing!) They described hell in the most graphic and horrific terms. My son was terrified. He didn’t know what hell was (we don’t believe in it and had never really addressed it with the kids, as we believe in love and light – especially for children), nor did he have a firm grasp on what it meant to be Christian (or Jewish or Buddhist or even atheist, for that matter, since we were huge on teaching the Golden Rule, but not big on teaching any religion). So what he heard absolutely terrified him. The kids told him that the only way to not go to hell was to be a Christian. My son came home sobbing and obviously traumatized. His first words as he flew through the door were, “Mommy, I need to be a Christian! Quick!” It was funny – but so NOT. He was terrified (and I was furious). He had such an imagination anyway and when kids told him he’d go to hell for reasons, which they described fully, that he (and they??!) didn’t understand, he lost it.

    Was my son spiritually abused?

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Part 2
    I’m right wing, I’m socially conservative. Although I have some serious doubts or problems with the Christian faith the last few years (at least how it is being lived out or ‘not’ lived out by American Christians I see around me), I don’t know if I’d want to live under a Christian nation.

    I’m not a supporter of far left views, or militant atheists who try to push theism out of the public square, or of Christian bakers being forced to bake wedding cakes for homosexual couples, and all that sort of thing.
    However, as I’ve become aware of fruit loop Christians with weird, far, far right, dogmatic views about things, I’m not comfortable with this being a Christian nation, either.

    For example, Robert on that previous thread feels that wives (at least Christian ones?) owe their husbands sex, and that husbands are “entitled” (his word choice) to sex from their wife. I disagree.
    I would not want to live under laws chosen by guys like Robert. Robert would and did argue that his views about how marriage and sex are to work for everyone in our nation, or at least for Christian couples, are very “Christian” and very “biblical.” (I disagree. I don’t think the Bible supports his views about wives, sex, or marriage at all.)

    You have some very extremist people who identify as Christian who think – and they will use the Bible, the same one you read, to justify the following things and more – women should not get college educations; adulterers should be stoned to death (they want the nation ruled under Old Testament laws, the whole thing of which reminds me of Islamic sharia law); etc.

    My idea of what Christianity is and what other self identifying Christians’ idea of what the faith is are two different things.
    I would be just as creeped out to live under their rule as I would militant atheists, for instance. I don’t think I’d have freedom, or not as much, if certain types of Christians gained political power or influence.

    If the Owen Strachan, Keven Swanson, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, etc, type of Christians gained control of the nation, I’m afraid life for me as a woman would be similar to what women under Islam have to endure. (I realize that some of those guys are not as extreme as others.)

    If those guys were in charge, I’d not be legally allowed to purchase birth control pills (for health reasons not having to do with sex, women have other reasons for taking them), I’d have to wear a head to toe covering to hide my body when going out in public, I wouldn’t be able to have a job outside the home, etc.

    I realize the majority of Christians are not like that, but the weirdos who live on the fringe of patriarchy and gender complementarianism (and these guys totally think these views are biblicaly justifiable and God’s intent for women) absolutely wish they could limit women even further.

    Liked by 3 people

  71. Brenda R: Agreed. SCOTUS often simply imposes the policy preferences of the majority on a given issue. Of course they wrap it up in often tediously long opinions to fool all of us bumpkins. The problem for them is that more and more people see them for what they are.

    Of course for every swing of the pendulum to the so-called Left, there has always been a swing back.

    Like

  72. Keith,

    Thanks. I was in the US Navy…very patriotic, and know the roots of why we do what we do in the military. Is it to occupy nations? I’m always skeptical of some who say that they support the troops in one breath, while calling us war mongers in the other breath. I’ve seen the divisions, but even more so when Al Gore lost to George Bush, and what a sore loser Al Gore was, still trying to make himself relevant with this global warming thing.

    But the Bible states a promise to Noah, that as long as the earth abides, there will be heat, cold, winter and summer, so I have nothing to worry about. The life of the earth is in the hands of God.

    Like

  74. Ed; ask someone from the Missouri or Wisconsin Synod about ELCA. :^)

    The point I was making is that you will see some very different things, depending on which group is dominant (and that can also include some fairly militant secularism, or vague pantheism like I saw in college), and that is enough for me to say that government really ought not be leading prayers.

    Daisy, I don’t think Piper et al are against the prescription of birth control drugs, politically speaking. You may disagree with him on many issues–I do at times–but let’s keep our claims to what the gentlemen have actually said.

    Like

  75. “I saw Brenda R.’s comment about Sharia law and did not find it offensive at all.”

    Then perhaps you can explain to me why after everything I wrote on the other thread, Brenda’s response is to ask ME if I wanted Sharia Law. Where did that come from? How on earth did she glean that from my comments? I would ask Brenda but I don’t seem to be able to communicate effectively with her. I found it insulting and offensive. I am a big supporter of freedom for Muslim women from their religion’s
    bondage. I have spent a lot of time working with that population as a volunteer.

    Yes, I have a problem with promoting any religion in schools by prayers, etc. I saw this played out years ago when a school had a large population of students from a Wiccan coven nearby. Now schools in some areas are making allowances for Muslim students who are offended by certain things like pork on the menus. Don’t have it at all in the school.

    The question for America is: Can a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Mormon and Wiccan all agree on individual civil liberties? The ability for adult humans to govern themselves within parameters set out in our Constitution?

    Liked by 1 person

  78. “I respect your opinion, but what other religion believes that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are God given rights, but Christianity? The words, “Among those” indicates that we have many more God given rights beyond the three mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. No other religion believes in all of those rights coming from God, but Christianity. If there is another, please list those.” Ed

    Ed, with all due respect, it doesn’t matter. That’s the great thing about a nation founded on *freedom* of religion: no one has to be right. You can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe and the nation’s government and laws don’t (or shouldn’t) care what those beliefs are. We are (or should be) all treated the same under the law, regardless of our religious beliefs – or lack thereof. Isn’t that the way it should be? Should either of us be treated differently as a citizen of the United States based on our religious beliefs – or lack thereof? If your answer is no, the only conclusion is that NO religion should be favored by any public government institution. Christianity should no more be part of our schools or courts or laws than should paganism or atheism or Judaisism or Islam. Can we agree on that?

    Liked by 3 people

  80. Lydia,

    First, I should say that you and I have been on this blog for quite some time, and I do have respect for you and your allegiance to fighting spiritual abuse. I respect you. I normally do not respond to you because I agree with most everything that you say. But not this time.

    You had said:
    “Yes, I have a problem with promoting any religion in schools by prayers, etc. I saw this played out years ago when a school had a large population of students from a Wiccan coven nearby. Now schools in some areas are making allowances for Muslim students who are offended by certain things like pork on the menus. Don’t have it at all in the school. ”

    Once this nation began a major turn from our founding father’s intent, THEN things went south, just as in the example that you gave above.

    This is a melting pot nation that people are supposed to assimilate in. We seem to have division, and that was not the intent of the founding fathers.

    And, we had bacon at school, too. Why? Because WE ARE FREE. Invoking restrictions due to alternate religious beliefs is NOT FREEDOM.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  81. Lydia,
    “I saw Brenda R.’s comment about Sharia law and did not find it offensive at all.”

    I don’t seem to be able to comment to you without angering you. So I simply won’t anymore. I was asking a question, not an accusation.

    Like

  82. “As to weather we are a “Christian” nation, I don’t know. Whatever the founders’ personal beliefs, I think they were fully aware that a “religious state” could be a very abusive one. We see that happening in some countries today. I think that’s why they wanted to keep the religious and civil spheres separate, Each man could follow his own conscience in regards to religious matters.”

    This is it. You nailed it. I can be a Christian while wanting others who are not to have freedom of conscience— as long as they don’t impose it on me. It is the imposition I find troubling. And from the personal papers, letters, etc, I have read from the Founders they leaned that way, too. They were well aware the abuses that come from imposing beliefs.

    They often used the word “Providence” or “Creator” in their writing. And I think that was for a reason.

    Liked by 2 people

  83. Carolsnider,

    The freedom of religion was ORIGINALLY intended for differing CHRISTIAN beliefs, and it evolved into differing alternate religions, or no religion at all.

    Note that it states freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

    Ed

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  84. I found Brenda’s remark odd, as much as Lydia has commented here, she has never, imo, said anything close to being supportive of Sharia Law. Maybe Brenda can explain what her thinking was behind asking that.

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  86. Lydia,

    You said:
    “They often used the word “Providence” or “Creator” in their writing. And I think that was for a reason.”

    And yet, the word God is still in that document above the word Creator. We all know that the word Creator is in reference to the word God. They are synonyms.

    But, again, I ask, what other religion beside Christian believes in FREEDOM that is outlined in the Declaration of Independence?

    And in closing, The Gettysburg Address, paragraph three, Abraham Lincoln said, “UNDER GOD”, not under creator. He spoke those words in public, to people, in public. Did anyone correct him? Did anyone tell him not to use the word God, because it might offend someone? What God was he talking about?

    Ed

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  87. Lydia,

    You said:
    “This is it. You nailed it. I can be a Christian while wanting others who are not to have freedom of conscience— as long as they don’t impose it on me. It is the imposition I find troubling. And from the personal papers, letters, etc, I have read from the Founders they leaned that way, too. They were well aware the abuses that come from imposing beliefs. ”

    So, let me clarify my position that declaring that this nation is a Christian nation is not a declaration that I believe in a theocracy.

    Unbelievers have every right to be here, JUST AS LONG AS THEY ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT OUR FOUNDATION IS. But it seems to me that you are in denial of the foundation.

    Ed

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  88. If the US was a more “minimal’ state, we would have far fewer conflicts regarding many issues. Ed is probably like me, in that we were born into a country which has changed radically over our lifetimes, and not by votes or constitutional amendments. Many of these changes are not for the better. Why should the preferences of the gentry liberals and social leftists be imposed upon us?

    Liked by 1 person

  89. Gail,
    I would be happy to as soon as I find the original posts for reference. I don’t remember what was said that made it come to mind.

    Like

  90. “Carolsnider,

    The freedom of religion was ORIGINALLY intended for differing CHRISTIAN beliefs, and it evolved into differing alternate religions, or no religion at all.

    Note that it states freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

    Ed”

    What you are saying is that our country was founded under the belief that, as long as you are Christian, you are free to practice any denomination of Christianity?!

    I beg to differ.

    Our nation was founded on the belief that religion (*any* religion) and government should not be tied, but should be separate entities.

    Ed, do you believe that I, as an atheist, should have the same freedoms as a US citizens as you do?

    Carol

    Liked by 4 people

  91. @carolsnider

    “Was my son spiritually abused?”

    In a sense, yes. Though, if these were your son’s friends, I would tend to look at it as immaturity on their part. They hurt your son without really intending to.

    What really raises my eyebrows is that third-graders would be so adamant about becoming “Christian.” That’s probably because in my denominational backgrounds they don’t baptize kids that young. And we didn’t learn graphic detail about hell until much, much later. 🙂 I wonder what those boys were being exposed to?

    Liked by 3 people

  92. Tim,

    You had discussed the affirmation in regards to the opposite of putting hand on bible.

    Well, in my days in the US Military (Navy), when I enlisted and reenlisted, those papers had a swearing in, and God was mentioned as part of that swearing in.

    Ed

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  93. BTDT,

    That is my point as well. For a 3rd grader, the topic of hell is a bit out there. That surely isn’t what I knew in the 3rd grade. I think we were still in the coloring crayons coloring a donkey that Jesus rode on, or something. THEOLOGY is not for a third grader. Coloring crayons is. I am wondering how/why the topic of hell was brought up to a 3rd grader.

    Ed

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  94. Gail,
    First of all, if you thought there was something funny or off about my comment, why didn’t you say so at the time? I have MS and a very short memory, which does not change why I asked the question. I feel blessed to have been born in this country and when people talk about it not being a Christian Nation, I feel that the hedge that God has put around it slipping away.

    I mentioned Sharia Law after Lydia had said that it was a mistake to call us a Christian nation. Sharia may or may not have always been a bad thing, but it has become so. To me it is the opposite of being a Christian Nation. It is beheading people at will, stoning women for being raped, women wearing so much clothing that only her eyes might be seen, girls not being educated. Rules, rules and more rules, beyond those of the 10 Commandments. I connect it with the radicals that are far beyond our own congress. In congress they are radical in a different way. I include both aisles and down the middle when I speak of congress.

    I may be wrong or completely off base, but still had no ill will when I asked the question. I also, said I hope we don’t go so far. Meaning God will not bless a nation that does not put Him first. Our founders put Him first.

    Liked by 2 people

  95. Ed: I did the same to become a dogface soldier. Also swore “so help me God” to hold office.

    Tim: When you went on the bench did you swear an oath? Was it theistic?

    Liked by 1 person

  96. Carolsnider,
    ,
    Please do not misconstrue what I am saying. It seems to be what is going on with you and Lydia.

    Unbelievers have every right that you espouse. BUT, you have the obligation to acknowledge the foundation of our freedoms, as so stated in the Declaration of Independence, that the freedoms that we have are God given freedoms, not man given freedoms, and that it is our governments job to protect those God given freedoms, whether you believe it or not. You should acknowledge every word of a founding document, whether you believe it or not.

    Your unbelief does not change our foundation. It does not delete the supernatural wordings from the Declaration of Independence.

    I do not believe in a theocracy. I do believe that we are a Christian nation that unbelievers reside in. That is not a problem for me. The problem for me is if you do not acknowledge all of the words in that declaration of independence.

    There would be more respect for our nation if that was indeed acknowledged. We see a lot of people today that have NO RESPECT for their own nation. Not only that, when I watched Jay Leno, and he would take his camera out to ask people historical questions, those people had no freaking clue. No clue as to the basics of this nation that they live in. On Fox News, on Bill Oreily, there is a segment called Waters World, too. The guy’s last name is Waters, and he does the same thing that Jay Leno did, and I am just flabbergasted at the responses given when this used to be so basic. These people today have no clue. What do we see instead? People more concerned about getting pot legalized, drinking booze, showing boobs on the beach, X-box, i-pad, i-pod, Cell phones, etc. But they have no knowledge of much else. It’s pathetic.

    When I said the Pledge of Allegiance in school, it meant something DEEP INSIDE MY SOUL. But today, it doesn’t meas squat to people, just because of three letters, GOD. So, people don’t seem to have that patriotic reason to defend the nation that they live in, but to just badmouth the nation that they live in.

    So, I disagree with saying that this nation is not a Christian Nation, but acknowledge that we have moved away from being a Christian Nation, all because some people get offended. Offended? Really? How can anyone be offended by FREEDOM, in which Christianity is the ONLY religion to give freedom. I don’t understand THAT concept.

    Ed

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  97. I don’t know why you are so surprised, Ed, that children are interested in religion. I certainly was, why not? I went to Sunday School and Children’s Church and Vacation Bible School in the summer. It had an impact.

    I remember protecting a younger Jewish boy at the bus stop from a Child who wanted to beat him up because ‘the Jews killed Christ.’ I said, ‘Jesus was a Jew!’ and got between him and the boy. I was 8 or 9 at the time.

    Liked by 1 person

  99. I was taught by my father that America was founded by Christians on Christian principles. Through my own research, I don’t believe that it was. Sometimes I get the feeling that Christians feel offended when they are told “Happy Holidays”. Happy Holidays is fine, Merry Christmas is fine. I believe people should be free to practice their own religion and beliefs as long as they don’t infringe on others. I think studying other religions is beneficial, as religion is a very big part of many people’s lives. I don’t believe a particular religion should have prominence in any secular building. IMHO, this is not, was not, and hopefully will never be a “Christian” nation.

    Liked by 2 people

  100. It’s interesting to read the debate from this side of the pond. The UK Prime Minister made reference to ours being a ‘Christian country’ last year which prompted a great deal of discussion. I think it’s a meaningless phrase, as explained in my post at the time: http://wp.me/p4eHj4-i9
    ‘Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance; behold, He taketh up the isles as a very little thing.’
    – Isaiah 40:15

    Liked by 1 person

  101. Gail-“First of all, if you thought there was something funny or off about my comment, why didn’t you say so at the time?” Brenda R.

    Brenda,

    Perhaps I should have, I got busy reading & it dropped off my radar. When I read Lydia’s comment, it sprung back to mind. If you have read Lydia’s comments, you have to aware that she would never support S.L. I never said you meant any ill will.

    My opinion is that the genie has been let out of the bottle, so to speak, and we are not going to return to the days of praying in schools & on & on. One thing all of us as believers can do, in our now secular nation, is to let our light shine. I am being brief here intentionally because I have a meeting in 10 minutes.

    Liked by 2 people

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