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What does the Bible say about women in the church? Are wives inferior to men, to be controlled and ruled over by men? Does the Bible say women cannot lead or teach? Can they teach men?
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Yesterday, I was reading an old article from Doug Wilson in which he mentioned this:
The Bible does give a father and husband true authority in his family. But it also gives the elders of the church true authority over that family.
Because Wilson self identifies as a Christian patriarch, I fully expect him to make comments like that, but I looked at the verse he referenced: Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Having blogging about spiritual abuse for nearly two years, I would guess that this verse is the most widely twisted verse used by guru church leaders to help keep their flock in line. I’ve never been to seminary, but using simple Bible helps online, I was quickly able to learn that a better translation for the text using text would be:
Listen to or be persuaded by those who guide you and yield to them, for they watch out for your souls. . .(which I covered in this article a while back).
Another controversial verse which domineering men have used to exert their authority over women is 1 Timothy 2:12. The idea is that if it’s in the Bible written as such, we need to accept it as such.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
Gail Wallace from The Junia Project blog wrote a very informative article, Defusing the 1 Timothy 2:12 Bomb, completely challenging the traditional school of thought which defends male-only leadership. Kudos to the men who decide to read a scholarly article written by a ::::woman::::.
Gail’s article is very interesting and questions the dogmatic teachings that we hear from so many church leaders today.
Here is one challenge:
Interpretation should be consistent with the rest of the passage under study. As Groothuis notes “It is inconsistent to regard the dress code in 1 Tim 2:9 as culturally relative, and therefore temporary, but the restriction on women’s ministry as universal and permanent. These instructions were part of the same paragraph and flow of thought.” Similarly, if we insist that verse 12 is applicable today, to be consistent, that ruling should apply to the whole passage, including verse 15 (women shall be saved through childbearing). I find it concerning that most people who claim that 1 Timothy 2:12 is clear and applies today usually don’t have a clue as to what the verses that follow mean and how they should be applied.
I encourage you all to read the article and see for yourself. Wallace’s conclusion:
The bottom line is that in light of current biblical scholarship it’s time to acknowledge that there are too many problems with this passage to continue using it as a weapon against women called to church ministry.
Be sure to read the great information in the comments. Please check it out.
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Ok, along these lines, I found a video excerpt from Bishop N.T. Wright. In this video, Dick Staub interviews N.T. Wright following the release of his new book, Paul and the Faithfulness of God. In this short excerpt, the subject of women in the local church is addressed. (Sorry, I’m unable to embed the video.)
The basic idea is why are we using Paul’s words for final rules on authority? Why is the church making important church teachings based on maybe one verse of Paul’s without looking at the context of all of his other verses.
H/T to Bill Kinnon for the heads up on the N.T. Wright videos. The full interview with N.T. Wright can be found here: A Four-Part Conversation on N.T. Wright’s“Paul and the Faithfulness of God.”
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
WFTT2,
Yah, anger is the healthy emotion here. No one gets to demean us without receiving a good dose of it.
I enjoyed reading this thread because I’m also fed-up with the condescending and ignorant ideas (both at the same time! Boggling!) held by many people who call themselves Christians. I am out of patience—maybe it’s just because winter is a drag. I refuse to anymore endure people’s insistence that I’m a second-class citizen because I can carry a child to term. “Roled but equal” is as pure BS as “separate but equal”.
Do you remember Q from Star Trek? Pompous foolish
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Waiting for the trumpet, I like what Patrice said and you have another sister here too; I am also a sociologist.
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Q can’t say he doesn’t believe in authoritarianism and also believe that there is a hierarchy in the Trinity and that elders should be men. If he mispoke, fine, then he can clarify.
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Patrice, I sure do remember Q from Star Trek. I loved that show, but I will always despise arrogance.
Thank you, Marsha. I never did get to use my Sociology degree, and as far as my English degree goes, I’ve only been able to use it to compose writing papers to help my daughter. Also, I used it to write in a journal, and to write letters pleading for justice from Congressmen, State Reps, Judges, Senators and attorneys when I lost my case in court and lost my son.
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WFTT2, human arrogance is always illegitimate. If anyone could be that way legitimately, it would be Jesus, and he wasn’t.
I also have a huge problem with human authority in general; I know it is because of my experiences. So it is.
But I do respect wisdom and I am fans of those who have it.
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“Holding my beliefs do not cause people to be abusive, in fact it should cause the opposite.”
Q, My opinion is that you have been playing a disingenuous game here. Now you want to end it with a “gotcha”. Not buying.
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I don’t have a problem with legitimate authority. I did serve in the military for 10 years, after all. But what is being espoused by the Reformed and other “authoritarian-minded” doctrines is NOT legitimate.
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WFTT2, yeah, it is my own problem. No trust. Also a defensive gesture, I think, because abuse came from father-who-was-pastor. I don’t think I would have been able to manage the military. 🙂
But I do love God, the biggest authority out there, so it’s ok, I suppose. Took a while, though.
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Patrice – – Your situation is so complicated – father-who-was-pastor – because of the emotional and spiritual complications. Wow.
I think of other situations like missionaries who abused spiritually, physically or sexually. All of these abuses by a father or father figure, or church leader present complicated hurdles emotionally and spiritually.
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“Also a defensive gesture, I think, because abuse came from father-who-was-pastor.”
My heart always breaks when I hear these things. I really appreciate those here who stand up to the silliness and also evil masquerading as Christianity. You guys have been in the trenches so to speak. It really does complicate things when your abuser is a “respected” church leader and you are a kid.
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JA, LSOP, yeah. My revulsion of authority is no big deal, really, all things considered, but I’m glad I don’t have to exist in a system, such as the military or these types of churches, where it would drive me nuts.
I think I’m feeling extra grouchy today because of the Gothard stories. Those women suffered that, too—having an authority call God on his side to perpetuate abuse. My father also hoisted Gothard on me when I wanted to get married. Twice. The first time, he won, the second time, he lost.
It’s plain evil. All abuse is, of course, but in a sort of obvious anti-christ way, this puts icing on the cake. Blech!
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WFTT2 and Patrice,
You both deserve a standing ovation for speaking up here. After what you two have been through, and still manage to retain your faith in God, you put many people to shame.
I’m so glad you both participate here.
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“I think I’m feeling extra grouchy today because of the Gothard stories. Those women suffered that, too—having an authority call God on his side to perpetuate abuse. My father also hoisted Gothard on me when I wanted to get married. Twice. The first time, he won, the second time, he lost.
It’s plain evil. All abuse is, of course, but in a sort of obvious anti-christ way, this puts icing on the cake. Blech!”
Speaking of Gothard, I’ve been over at RecoveringGrace.org for the past few days (and still reading there….every post since it’s beginning and the comments). Even though I never had that kind of training shoved down my throat, abuse is still abuse, and suffering is still suffering. Recovery is still an ongoing process.
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Thank you, Been There. He’s all I’ve got! He is all that kept me alive. It is only through Him that I will heal.
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WFTT2, it is astonishing, isn’t it? When I finally sat down by God on the park bench in my mind, I leaned up against the best love I’ve ever experienced. I know it is God because of that. I’d never known such and there S/He was/is, kind and solid and just gigantic!
I am sooo glad that you know this God too. woot
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I figured I had a choice to make. I could wallow in self-pity and destroy myself further, or look to Him for comfort, acceptance and unconditional love. Once He started to heal me, then I felt called to do something proactive to help others.
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“Lydia I wish you would write a book. I would buy it in hardback!” Me too Marsha.
WFTT2 You bless me & I would love to give you a hug also.
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((((Gail))))
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BTDT, at risk of sounding like the Princess Bride, I was just looking for true love, you know? That which was both true and loving.
And I’m by no means whole, as WFTT2 can also attest for herself. I still have a lot of dissociative episodes, occasional flashbacks, etc. But over and under, there is that God, True Love.
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“And I’m by no means whole, as WFTT2 can also attest for herself. I still have a lot of dissociative episodes, occasional flashbacks, etc. But over and under, there is that God, True Love.”
You ain’t kidding! I still have flashbacks when I get triggered, plus cyclical depression.
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WFTT2, are your depressions seasonal or do they tend to converge on “anniversaries” of bad times?
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“When I finally sat down by God on the park bench in my mind, I leaned up against the best love I’ve ever experienced.”
With me, I downloaded a gif (graphic, moving photo) of Jesus leaning against a tree on a hill beside a running stream. Whenever I felt the need, I would turn to that photo and stare at it, imagining myself running toward Him and sitting beside Him. It gave me the calming assurance I needed.
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Me, too!
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“WFTT2, are your depressions seasonal or do they tend to converge on “anniversaries” of bad times?”
Cyclical. About every 3 months and lasting for a couple weeks each time. This has been going on for decades.
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WFTT2, sweet!
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Ok – -reading this has me in tears. Beautiful, Patrice. Why is it that when I cry there is never any Kleenex to be found?
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WFFT2, wow, that’s fierce! My sympathies!!
Mine are more anniversary-type but not that severe anymore. My worst remaining symptoms are the dissociation: spacing out, numb body, everything at a long distance, brain shutting down. Ugh.
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I can usually forecast my depression cycles, starting the second week of September (when I lost my son) and every 3 months thereafter, every single year for the past 20+ years.
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Some of my petit mal seizures are like your dissociations.
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I don’t think there’s anything “Princess Bride” about that. Wanting to be loved is what drew me to God, too. It’s hard to hang on to that when His “representatives” have displayed anything but love.
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JA, yeah, S/He is unbelievably wonderful, really. lol
And there’s nary a hint of “you’d better obey or I won’t love you anymore”. Just clarity and generosity. So I am certain that all the guff about Law-obedience and hierarchy is wrong. That isn’t God.
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Been There, they are full of cr*p and that they call it “God” is both pathetic and enraging. They don’t even know how to….well, I’d better not get started. They spout nonsense, that’s all. And by doing so, they make clear that they haven’t met the real God. If they had, they’d feel terribly embarrassed.
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WFFT2, that is horrid and I am very very sorry.
It’s interesting that your petit mals are like dissociation.
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I don’t know of a better description for it. I know when they’re coming, before they start. I get “auras” beforehand. Like a warning mechanism.
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WFFT2, I am glad that you are in a safe place because your life is altogether unstable. Mine is too, but not to that extent. Sheesh.
Therapist recently said that my job is to manage the chaos. Yeah, it is a job, that’s certain. Sometimes one gets tres weary of it, too, just like a job.
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I am going to “hit the hay”. Good night!
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lydiasellerofpurple,
I came back to reply and read this –
“Q, My opinion is that you have been playing a disingenuous game here. Now you want to end it with a “gotcha”. Not buying.”
I have spoken with candor.
Can you please explain your comment.
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Q says: “I have spoken with candor.”
Coming from someone who won’t even tell us whether s/he is male or female, that is just brazen.
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“WFFT2, I am glad that you are in a safe place because your life is altogether unstable. Mine is too, but not to that extent. Sheesh.”
Unstable?
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Lydia,
Speaking of the Message Bible (Gasp), a Christian comedian had a few jokes about that version. “What is this? Jesus turned water into wine coolers? What is this?” Funny!!
Ed
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Q,
You had said: “The doctrine of the Trinity of God is fundamental to the Christian faith, belief or disbelief in the Trinity marks orthodoxy from unorthodoxy.”
My response: No, the doctrine of trinity is a man made doctrine, fundamental to those who were TOLD what to believe. I remember as a child being TOLD that I have to believe in the trinity, that I had no choice in the matter. I could care less who identifies it to be orthodox. Catholics proclaim all sorts of goofy things as orthodox. I ain’t Catholic. I don’t believe in ANYTHING Catholic, and many things Catholic passed on down to the reformers, maintaining the word orthodox. But that doesn’t surprise me in the least. Both Lutherans and Calvinists are Catholics at heart. They denounce Catholicism, yet believe in Augustine…hello Q…Hello? Hello? To me, the word Orthodox means nothing. All it means is that DEAD PEOPLE DECIDED FOR ME WHAT I AM TO BELIEVE. Dead people made a decision that I didn’t make. Dead people do not speak for me. Period.
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Well, Ed, there’s no doubt in my mind where you stand on the Trinity. I always appreciate your forthrightness. I really do – regardless if I agree with you or not.
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Q said: “Orthodoxy is important when subjects have been clearly thought out and provide a foundation for sound doctrine, it is now in vogue to question every thing which is fine but when you just tear everything apart and leave nothing in its place it is destructive.
My response: If I haven’t made it clear enough, let me re-iterate: Dead people do not speak for me. I have clearly thought this topic out, and it is sound. There is NOTHING wrong with questioning anything, anytime, anywhere…even authority. There is nothing wrong with tearing things apart, to dissect it, yes, even scripture. There is nothing destructive in that.
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Q asks WFTT2, ”
waitingforthetrumpet2, How about someone besides Jesus and books on Christianity other than the bible? Oh and what online reads/sites would you recommend to help me understand the bible better?”
My 2 cents: I wouldn’t recommend anything outside of Jesus, or the Bible, and a Strong’s Concordance. Those are the only things you need.
I have debated a Catholic (for quite some time now) from New York. I do my best to steer people to the Bible in all debates. But he wanted to steer people to “church fathers”. That is a problem with me, as I don’t care what the church fathers had to say on the subject, when I have a Bible. Church fathers did not want anyone to have a bible, so that they would be the GO TO men, so that they would have power, prestige, respect, which all turns into corruption in the end. Church Fathers is a laugh, a joke to me. Dead people, speaking for me? I don’t think so.
Ed
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Thanks JA. I do not find that the trinity issue is a salvation issue, so I know that there will be people who do not agree. If anyone believes in trinity as a Christian, I will never proclaim that they are not Christian.
But I do add that when Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus replied,
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
So, when the trinity people die, they will ask Jesus:
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
And Jesus will reply…”Here we go again…Have you not read John 14:9? Back to earth you go!! When you have read John 14:9, then you can come home.
Ed
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Good morning, WFTT2. I don’t mean that you are spiritually unstable or mentally-ill unstable. I was tired last night and went to unclear short-speak.
By unstable, I mean that we have depressions, seizures (for me, flares from auto-immune disease), flashbacks, etc, which come when they come, not on a schedule but often seemingly willy-nilly.
For eg, I don’t know what will set off a flashback. Once in a while I can see it coming, and sometimes I can look back and mark the reasons, but other times, I can’t figure it out. (I am better at understanding dissociative episodes.) Plus those nights when one wakes from a nightmare flashback and sleep is ended, and fighting the flashback/aftereffects chews up a couple of days.
I find this unpredictability one of the more difficult things to deal with. But, of course YMMV
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“I have spoken with candor.
Can you please explain your comment.”
It is never you, is it Q? We have a whole thread to read to ascertain that. I have been detecting NPD tendancies in your communication choices so will bow out. This is the sort of convo one could have for years with an NPD type and get no where. No thanks.
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“Speaking of the Message Bible (Gasp), a Christian comedian had a few jokes about that version. “What is this? Jesus turned water into wine coolers? What is this?” Funny!! ”
Too funny!
I am not a translation snob. I read as many as I can get my hands on. I love the internet as they are now free at our fingertips.
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Barb told me she’d posted a comment of mine here, so I have been doing catch-up.
What a truly amazing crowd you are – only because you’ve proved the AMAZING love of God in your own lives and it shines from the wisdom and honesty of your words. Also the astute analysis of veiled agendas in some posts – I’d have missed them for sure!
Chris and I escaped an abusive church last September, shunning order still in force, so have been on a rapid learning curve about personality disorders, dark triad etc and recognise the classic Narcissistic Personality Disorder of our ex-pastor and the astonishing hold he has on his co-dependents. It is quite demonic – truly ‘disguised as an angel of light!’
How beautiful of our Saviour/Healer that He can turn the ugliest of abuse into a common bond of Love. …. Wow, just had another ’detox’ – what I call those sudden bursts like grief, that well up when something triggers. Some sobs later and the Precious Arms hold me tight in His Comfort and Peace. 🙂
Struggling to continue…
I’ve been posting on a thread hosted by Linked-In for a couple of months, now and have engaged in ‘cordial’ discussion with the Complementarian camp. Some are real guys, with lives and real stories and we share a common Saviour, others seem to be disembodied voices ‘bleating’ the same trump text of 2 Tim 3:16. They, as usual don’t take it in context!! Just take a look at it from verses 12-17:
“Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted (- what else is abuse?) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. ( – how else does abuse work?) You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them ( – we KNOW the voice of our Shepherd), and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” ( – including exposing error!)
They have been using that very scripture to DECEIVE, while all along it was given to us as a means to unmask their deception! How twisted (=’wicked’ in old English)
I have also been wondering how best to help others see beneath the ‘fleece’ or ‘shining garment’ and recognise the demon that has hijacked these souls for the ‘purpose of him who came not, but to kill, steal and destroy’. Also to help the proponents of this ‘demonic doctrine’ realise how deceived they are. Once again 2 Tim 2:23-6 has good advice on this theme, only a few verses earlier.
“But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps GOD MAY GRANT THEM REPENTANCE leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”
There will ALWAYS be ‘foolish and ignorant speculations’ and ‘much disputing’ ( Acts 15 :7) over texts and meanings! We need to bring more convincing evidence than that to the table. God Himself silences the dispute by speaking much louder than men’s musings, through His ACTIONS – anointing (15:8) and gifting in Ministry, endorsing by GOOD and lasting fruit (Matt 12:33), whomever He chooses – whether male or female. Can’t argue with HIM, now!
On the matter of fruit, (Matt 12:32-37) does what is said – out of the abundance of the heart – lead to abundant life or bondage and strife? Again, the wisdom of 2 Tim 2:14-15 “Solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” The scriptures, WHEN ACCURATELY HANDLED, are God-breathed. They are Living and active (Gk. ’energo’ = productive) and able to discern the thoughts and intents of a speakers heart (Heb 4:12) and will reproduce ‘zoe’ life, too as GOOD fruit. When MIShandled they are ‘idle’ (Matt 12:36) (’argo’ from ‘a’ – negative + ’ergo’ ) and cannot produce zoe, life.
In short’ a ‘corrupt’ tree speaks, even scripture, but because mis-handled it produces ‘corrupt’ fruit. Truly “we shall know them by their fruit”.
Summing up, two diagnostic criteria are
What is God DOING? ….. We just WON’T get it right if we only look at the written word!
What is the fruit?
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“Q says: “I have spoken with candor.”
Coming from someone who won’t even tell us whether s/he is male or female, that is just brazen.””
Gary, it is all about ‘definitions”. He who defines, wins. Perhaps Q has his own defintion for candor that only applies to him but not to others. That is how it works. One of the NPD tendancies. NPD’s change definitions to fit the moment, btw. So don’t expect to nail them down. That is one reason we saw ‘agreement’ from Q at the end. S/he was grooming us for ‘chaos’.
You have been a convenient scape goat for him. And of course, everyone here is just “emotional” as if the coldest cruelest Nazi working the ovens was not “emotional”. As if condescention and arrogance is NOT an emotion. Those
who use that as a back handed insult do not understand “emotions” at all.
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“It is never you, is it Q?”
When it comes to anything that might put Q in a negative light, nope, it’s never about him. Otherwise it is ALL about him.
But how does this relate to the question of spiritual abuse? Q’s behavior has maybe been something of a warning. Still, although the evidence is there, and although Q’s demeanor has likely made some here feel very uncomfortable, I don’t think I have enough information to make even a layman’s assessment whether Q is narcissistic. However, I certainly have seen what I now know was narcissism in so called pastors. Narcissists seem to be drawn to pulpits like iron to magnets. Church congregations seem to be as attracted to narcissists as narcissists are to the pulpit.
But it gets worse. Narcissist simply cannot see that they are narcissists. Because of this they are to be both pitied and feared–pitied because they are so effectively beyond even seeing their need for help, feared because they can do great harm. It is increasingly clear that the harm they do can regularly include sexual predation. (I am not, AM NOT, suggesting any such thing about Q. I speak only in general terms.)
My advice? Stay clear of anybody and everybody who shows evidence of being full of themselves, especially if they are in places of authority and trust. Flee from them. If you are in a congregation where the person behind the pulpit allows himself to receive glory from others, If the person behind the pulpit shows any signs whatever of grandiosity and/or lust for power, flee. If you have children, flee today. Do not, do not, wait until tomorrow. Whatever you do, do not wait around hoping things will change. They will not.
Never, ever, allow a child to be alone in the presence of any pastor, youth pastor or other person who is in a position of trust and authority. The risks of sexual predation are just too great.
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“My 2 cents: I wouldn’t recommend anything outside of Jesus, or the Bible, and a Strong’s Concordance.� Those are the only things you need.�”
Ed, You and others seem to pride yourselves on being independent of outside resources for help in understanding God’s word, this seems to deny the fact that God has given the body gifts like teachers, whether there ministry is oral or spoken the benefits are the same and they should not be despised.
” Catholics proclaim all sorts of goofy things as orthodox. I ain’t Catholic. I don’t believe in ANYTHING Catholic, and many things Catholic passed on down to the reformers, maintaining the word orthodox. But that doesn’t surprise me in the least. Both Lutherans and Calvinists are Catholics at heart. They denounce Catholicism, yet believe in Augustine…hello Q…Hello? Hello? ”
Hello Ed,
I fit none of these groups and they are not the only ones who use the term orthodox e.g., the Moody Bible Handbook of Theology uses the term orthodox and is neither Catholic, Lutheran or Reformed.
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100% agree, Gary.
Trouble is most people, certainly here in Britain, have never heard of ‘spiritual abuse’ or have any idea about symptoms of Narcissism. Chris and I had known this guy for 33 years and been pastored by him for 27. The last few years we had become not wonderfully happy with the way the church was going and then, only 14 months ago, dared ask him questions. That was when we accidentally (god-inspired) stumbled across npd and spiritual abuse – both in theory AND practice!!
Praise God, that because we had become well-informed and our eyes were opening to it, we could keep our hearts sweet and eventually emerge without TOO much damage.
We are thriving with connection to sites and blogs of other abuse escapees and have a growing passion to raise awareness of it here. It has been so enriching to link hearts with you guys too!
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lydiasellerofpurple,
The bible says – answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit …so, your accusation of NPD is incorrect and it is foolish to make such accusations of someone you do not even know.
All this seems to be because I stated my belief in the Trinity or because the bible teaches women should not be elders.
I read some of what you said and agreed, but not these points.
Oh and the message is a book just not the word of God (gasp).
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Gary W, I’m a he, but since there are no gender roles in your opinion, it shouldn’t matter to you. Is it gender or sex?
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“What is God DOING? ….. We just WON’T get it right if we only look at the written word!
What is the fruit?”
Thank you Alison. On this blog we have from time to time discussed the need to look at fruit. I personally have come to see that, as a practical matter, Scripture is too easy to twist to be particularly helpful when it comes to confronting error. Therefore, your insight about looking at what God is doing is exciting.
Please, give us more. How do we go about seeing what God is doing? I tend to learn most easily from examples if you can provide any.
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“The bible says – answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit …so, your accusation of NPD is incorrect and it is foolish to make such accusations of someone you do not even know.”
That is one of CJ Mahaney’s favorite verses. :o) It is a “biblical” way to call someone a fool. :o)
Please go back and read what I wrote. I was very careful not to accuse you of having NPD. I said this:
“I have been detecting NPD tendancies in your communication choices so will bow out.”
Note I said NPD “tendancies” in your “communication choices”. I stand by that. It could be you are just parroting your favorite guru so I don’t really know. All I can go by are word choices and the communication strategies you have made here on this blog.
“All this seems to be because I stated my belief in the Trinity or because the bible teaches women should not be elders.”
No, that was not it at all. You declared and condescended. but never mind. It does not really matter.
“Oh and the message is a book just not the word of God (gasp).”
It is a paraphrase translation. And I thought the “Word” of God wasYahweh. The Logos.
Gen: “In the beginning was the scripture”? Nope, It was the “Word”.Or, John 1: “The Word became scripture? Nope, the Word became flesh.
People often confuse the Word with the scriptures. Makes them easier to use as either a history book or a club to beat folks with.
I love the scriptures and study them intently. But I do not think they are the 4th person fo the Trinity. Too many uninpsired translators involved over the milenia to even dare suggest such a folly..
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“Gary W, I’m a he, but since there are no gender roles in your opinion, it shouldn’t matter to you. Is it gender or sex?”
It is interesting to note when you have come here limiting gifts for one gender who are also full heirs. You chose a moniker that is gender neutral. Curious.
There are no gender “roles”. There ARE gender specific biological functions which are a FACT of life. Not sure how our genitals map to spirituality. Is there a pink and blue salvation?
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Alison, I totally agree about fruit. But have you noticed that is also redefined by many to fit their proclivities? That is why I often talk about “living out the kingdom now”. Jesus prayed,”on EARTH as it is in heaven”.
Lots of talk about creeds, but most skip the part that Jesus LIVED out while here. That is why I encourage folks to read the Gospels over and over for many years before they even try to understand Paul. See, I think most pulpits try to make Jesus fit into Paul’s teachings instead of the other way around. They start with Paul and never seen to go deep with Christ. There are even some who put Paul in the same category as Jesus. In fact, many reading this will assume I do not believe the scriptures were ‘inspired’. They would be wrong. It is the way they have been translated and our lack of 1st Century context that bothers me the most and turns Paul into a law giver.
The book of Matthew from chapter 5-23 is something we should all memorize for starters. It could save us a lot of heartache as we would recognize false teachers, wolves and hirlings a lot quicker.
In fact, Q talked about scriptures and us needing teachers, etc. But a good teacher would encourage a new believers to pray and seek wisdom in understanding. A good teacher would never insist the new person only follow them. A good teacher would want them maturing past them! That is the danger of what many say is “orthodoxy”.. Nevermind that definition has been fluid for a millenia depending on the tyrant.
There is a lack of iiving out the kingdom now and a total focus on what some insist is “sound doctrine” —which is meaningless when it does not transfer to how we live as the kingdom now..
But then, all we hear is that sinners sin and we expect Christians to do evil. They are saved and continue in evil but that is ok because they teach or beieve “sound doctrine”. If we dare mention the problems with this then we are accused of expecting “sinless perfection”. A false dichotomy. There is a lot of bad teaching out there.
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Geez, sorry about all the typos. not in a good situation for typing!
Mod note: Lydia, I think I fixed most of them. I need help with this one:
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Ed, I usually stand clear of a debate on the Trinity. I think both sides make a case. And it IS a man made declaration to explain Yahweh. Yahweh did not tell us He is a Trinity and to understand Him that way. Some dead guys simply counted the main manifestations in scripture and declared it so. It is so ingrained it can hardly be discussed without cries of unorthodox and heretic! So many yuong people have serous questions and we dismiss them because of “orthodoxy”!
On a side note, I sometimes teach middle school girls bible and one night a girl came who has NO background at all in Christianity. Understands NOTHING. She asked if Jesus committed suicide. There were some gasps from the other adult in the room who wanted to censor the question. I thught it was A GREAT QUESTION!!!! What an opportunity to speak of sacrifice and LOVE for HER.
My question is: Has the Trinity taken us a bit off track from understanding the One True God, though. I say we should be able to at least discuss it without being labeled heretics. It is not as if one is proclaiming the resurrection did not happen or that Roman guards stole the Body. But discussion is heresy in some quarters. A declarative “It is orthodoxy” is to end the discussion. How sad.
Do you have an opinion on “Lord of Host Armies” in the OT? I know some say it is Jesus Christ.
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“A good teacher would want them matuig past them! ”
Hee hee. “maturing”.
I am sitting on the patio of a starbucks waiting for my appointment because this is the first day of real sun in a while. I can barely see the screen!!!
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Lydia – it sounds you are dealing with tremendous hardships. I’ll pray for you, sistah! I’ll fix that typo 🙂
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Q (13.6:54am) wrote: “Ed, You and others seem to pride yourselves on being independent of outside resources for help in understanding God’s word, this seems to deny the fact that God has given the body gifts like teachers, whether there ministry is oral or spoken the benefits are the same and they should not be despised.”
No, Q, it’s that we can see a set-up when it’s in front of us. Doesn’t take all that much, really. And you show that we are correct by your instant reversion to preaching, “…deny teachers, ministry, oral should not…blahblahblah”
Who are you to preach at us?
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Unless we consent to his preaching, he has no right to preach to us. As Christians, we have the responsibility and duty to examine everything we can know about a person and their faith before accepting their preaching as anything other than the blathering of a demon possessed narcissist (btw, narcissism is a demon!!!!). Since he has not submitted any credential and communicates as he does, I would not accept his preaching at this point. Perhaps after further examination.
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I don’t see the point of engaging with Q. Here is someone who has contempt for the very essence of who we are – intelligent, educated, analytical Christian women who think for ourselves. It seems like his questions are intended to lead to some kind of gotcha moment rather than an exchange of ideas.
I was really taken aback when he asked someone about which contemporary Christian writers they would recommend. I don’t read any and I can’t imagine why I would want to. If I am struggling with a Biblical passage I might call my old pastor who is now retired because he is quite the Biblical scholar, but the idea of regularly reading interpretations of the Bible rather actually reading the Bible makes no sense to me.
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@ Patrice
“Good morning, WFTT2. I don’t mean that you are spiritually unstable or mentally-ill unstable. I was tired last night and went to unclear short-speak.
By unstable, I mean that we have depressions, seizures (for me, flares from auto-immune disease), flashbacks, etc, which come when they come, not on a schedule but often seemingly willy-nilly.
For eg, I don’t know what will set off a flashback. Once in a while I can see it coming, and sometimes I can look back and mark the reasons, but other times, I can’t figure it out. (I am better at understanding dissociative episodes.) Plus those nights when one wakes from a nightmare flashback and sleep is ended, and fighting the flashback/aftereffects chews up a couple of days.”
Good morning. 🙂 Thank you for clarifying. I must admit I was a little triggered when I saw that word. I’m not blaming you. It’s just that after losing my son to that father of his, the wife of his condescended to me and rudely ridiculed me and said I needed to go back to the “nuthouse where I belong”. I was in the hospital for 3 months for 3 suicide attempts after my son was wrongfully taken from me by them through the corrupt family court here. I was given multiple ECT treatments during my time there. It was shortly after that that I started the seizures.
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Anon by Choice (13.9:17am), yes. But even if Q is qualified (by whatever standards we might put to him), I would not receive his teaching until he proved himself wise and trustworthy over a period of, say, 6 mths-year. But TBH, I’ve heard enough preaching to last half-way through eternity. So maybe when I get to that point, I’ll take it up for consideration again. 🙂
I seriously listen to people who know me, and they don’t ever preach.
(But I have heard some lovely sermons online. So there’s that. lol)
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WFFT2, yah, thought it must be something like that. I hope I didn’t mess up your day too much.
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Nah, I’m fine thanks. 🙂 I gotta get going. My daughter’s on her way to pick me up so I can babysit her kids until her afternoon nursing school class gets out. My granddaughter just had one of her teeth pulled, so I will be watching her too. Eventually, she will be getting braces. She’s 12.
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Q,
I’ll “Bite” and give MY credentials….
What current popular Christian figure/figures do you most agree with?
I’ll try Frank Viola, for one. I’ve recently heard some negative things, so my endorsement is with some reservation.
What Christian books if any would you recommend?
An Humble, Affectionate, and Earnest Address To the Clergy, by William Law
Do you attend church and if so which one/ones?
Objecting strongly to the concept of “attending” church, I assemble together with saints in a “missional communities” type church. However, I consider my “local” church to include ALL believers in my neighborhood, who meet in about a dozen different buildings and God only knows how many homes. We have a male pastor who considers himself our “resident theologian”, and who teaches and equips in many ways EXCEPT that of preaching “sermons”. His wife generally is busy with traditional wife/mother duties. However, she has a theology degree and, like some other women in our church, is “apt to teach”.
Personally, I’m a grandfather who held complementarian beliefs for close to 40 years. Now– not so much. I’m still less than fully convinced on the women as elders views of some egalitarians– but — and this is a big but– now that I am “elder” though not elderly–I take “elders” rather lightly. See Viola above. I also have a theology degree and was once “ordained” and was called “pastor” and preached a few “sermons”. I have never been spiritually abused. In fact– just maybe– I did a bit of the spiritual abusing. For example, a man I’ll call Brent, who should have been acknowledged as an elder, was forced to leave our church by the controlling, always-right, sometimes-angry ways of our senior pastor I’ll call Charles. As junior pastor, I stood by my “authority” and tried to convince Brent to stay and submit. Years later, I asked Brent’s forgiveness. He said, “When he was Brother Charles, he was a great guy. When he became Pastor Charles, he became insufferable.” Praise God that less than a year later, a friend drove over 400 miles and suggested that God might want us to “lay it all down”. We closed down the church before it was able to grow into an abusive “family of churches”. I’ve never wanted to pick “it” back up. My name is Dave. Amos has a rather similar story.
For most of my married/family life I did most of the traditional husband/father activities. Now, I also do most of the “women’s” work such as cooking, cleaning, laundry, and child-care. For a long time I felt the great responsibility/burden of having the “tie-break” in decisions I decided were the important ones in our marriage. I also felt great pressure to be the spiritual leader. Now— I’m trying to live with my wife in a more understanding way and show her greater honor, as Peter recommended.
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Dave AA:
Congratulations on arriving at a place in life where you find fewer restrictions on what you can do to express your affections for your spouse and subsequent generation(s). As a mid-60s male, I am more fully realizing the commitments I made in my youth, teens and 30s about racial/ethnic equality, gender equality, and gender preference equality (aligned in order with the age of my coming to those commitments). Our culture makes keeping those commitments difficult, especially when one has been involved in a traditional Christian (Baptist) environment.
Cooking has become a hobby as I have done more of it. We celebrated my 60th Bday by having three couples join us for a dinner I prepared, then treated them as guests to a performance by the Three Redneck Tenors. And I invent recipes all the time and share them with a few friends who are also men learning to cook. Nothing long, nothing complicated, just practical, tasty, healthy food (some of it gourmet class) that fills and satisfies, and usually costs less than $3 a plate.
I too have been a church leader and now minister to a working class neighborhood undergoing transition, but in which direction is unclear at present. I do 50% or more pro bono legal service, feed people who come to the door asking for money for food, and advocate for true equality of opportunity, with my SocSec check making up 1/2 my income while working 50+ hours a week. I deal with abuse matters on a daily basis, from which comes most of my pro bono work. And I have worked with churches to deal with abuse that occurred there, whether by the staff or volunteers, and especially how to avoid future instances.
Enjoy reading your comments. Please continue to be active here.
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Q said: “Ed, You and others seem to pride yourselves on being independent of outside resources for help in understanding God’s word, this seems to deny the fact that God has given the body gifts like teachers, whether there ministry is oral or spoken the benefits are the same and they should not be despised.”
My response: Who did the Bereans consult? Oh, I know this one…No one. They searched the scriptures daily to see if what those “so-called” gifted teachers were teaching was true, or false. So don’t blindly take what you are taught as true. Jesus asked “have YOU not read…?”. Jesus asked, “How do YOU see it?”
Ed
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lydiasellerofpurple,
You had said: “Ed, I usually stand clear of a debate on the Trinity.”
My response: Oh, I never walk away from any debate. I love them. But before I do, I learn and understand the opposing talking points prior to entering into a debate. That way that cannot surprise me by anything that they say, or reference. I love the tough debates. But then there are some that will say, “Oh, we can’t talk about that…that will cause division…and division is against the Bible, blah, blah, blah”. My response to that is that the Apostle Paul had no problem arguing (debating) with people, therefore the “division” argument has nothing to do with debating “interpretation”.
By the way, I agree with you that Yahweh was on that cross, and I believe that Jesus is Yahweh, the everlasting FATHER. How many everlasting FATHER’S do we have? ONE. Jesus.
Ed
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Patrice,
”
No, Q, it’s that we can see a set-up when it’s in front of us. Doesn’t take all that much, really. And you show that we are correct by your instant reversion to preaching, “…deny teachers, ministry, oral should not…blahblahblah” Who are you to preach at us?”
Right On, Patrice!! By the way, I am a huge supporter of women in the church. My job in the military was a payroll clerk, and many of my supervisors were women, and my daughter is in the Navy now. Some of these people would have a problem with my daughter being in the military with this gender role nonsense, or some would even say that it goes against the creation order, or some crazy thing like that. If a woman knows more than me, she can teach me. I have no problem with that at all. The religious whack jobs have a problem with that.
Ed
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Patrice,
With all due respect, what is meant by S/he? That is a foreign concept for me. I don’t get it. God isn’t known as Mother, but just Father. The S signifies female, I get that, but I don’t see that concept in the Bible. There is a woman I’ve seen on YouTube, of TicToc ministries, who teaches that the Holy Spirit is a woman, but she’s really out there in lala land. Anyway, if you could shed some light on that for me, I would appreciate that. Thanks,
Ed
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lydiasellerofpurple ,
I do not believe you are correct when you speaking of The Message said –
“It is a paraphrase translation”
Eugene Peterson has said differently and here is a quote from Wikipedia –
“Though The Message is often considered a paraphrase, it is not explicitly; The Message was translated by Peterson from the original languages”
How did he get “God of green” from the original? That’s weird.
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Ed, I agree in being like a Berean, I also think we can learn from others.The bible seems to back this up by God giving us teachers, so be a Berean and check this out.
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Q,
If you agree about being a Berean, then you should know full and well not to believe anyone about anything until you check it out for yourself.
The problem lies in that the same scripture is used for both a pro, and a con, depending on what “denomination” that you may belong to. Opinions are formed based on the twist of the scripture, or, as I like to say, “spin”, not the scripture itself. YOU have the responsibility to the scriptures, not to a teacher. What is taught to a person by a teacher is not necessarily the truth. I could throw you many many TOPICS and you would have a wide range of opinions from them so called gifted teachers that you say that God provided. I do not see any gifted teacher in any of the reformed realm. If they are so “gifted”, there would be no need for a “college edumacation”, because when you get down to it, the so called gifted teachers are only teaching what another so called gifted teacher taught them, so they mass produce these so called gifted teachers in an assembly line called seminary. That isn’t gifted. Not at all.
What did the Apostle Paul say about his own formal education? DUNG. God’s Word is the revelation. I am always skeptical about anyone proclaiming to be God’s gifted teacher.
Ed
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Patrice,
To add to my 12:07 comment, there could be an opposite to my job of being a payroll clerk by some of these gender role folks, too. Some might say that secretarial work is a woman’s job, therefore, I may have violated God’s creative order by submitting to a woman. I would just laugh in their faces!!
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Hey Ed (13.12:55pm) wrote: “With all due respect, what is meant by S/He?” I use combined pronouns for the Person who made everything, genders included. Having made them and being God, I see Him/Her as beyond genders and/or as containing them.
The traditional gender for God was Father because that is how ancient cultures saw authority and it makes a potent metaphor for understanding our relationship: child → parent. Of course Jesus was male. But yes, I think it is more wholesome to see the Holy Spirit as female, partly because a lot of nurturing/internal action is involved (which is traditionally more a female kind of thing) and because there is so much maleness already attributed to the God-head.
It is hard for a female to be sidelined by the faith at every level. I have to translate everything I read, “It means me too!” It takes a toll after a while and can make one feel deeply sidelined, not seeing an asserted place for oneself. Because of this over-emphasis on God-as-male, we have forgotten that God also made women in His/Her image—where is that femaleness in God?
On a personal level, I have a very difficult time viewing God as a Father because my own was an awful man and I cannot find a way to trust that role. That it isn’t important for my relationship with Him/Her is very relieving.
So that’s why. You may disagree 😉
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Patrice,
Well, it is kinda hard for me to believe that a spirit has any gender. Are there Men and Women’s restrooms in heaven? And, I see scripture showing that the Holy Spirit got Mary pregnant, so it’s hard for me to see a female insinuation in the Holy Spirit.
The scripture states (about the resurrection) that we will be like the angels, who neither marry, nor are given in marriage. No sex, no gender. No need for genitals, etc.
I totally understand in regards to seeing God as Father due to past abuse. My best friend never had a concept of a father growing up, so he has a hard time in regards to God being his father. But…that does not negate out that God is our Father, not mother. I don’t think it has anything at all to do with ancient cultures or metaphor. Why? Because God told Moses to WRITE IT DOWN IN A BOOK, hence, the Torah, and all of the Prophets, etc.
Ed
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Ed (13.2:38pm), I appreciate that God doesn’t insist on the Father metaphor because otherwise I’d not be able to know Him/Her as I now can. And that’s what’s important, that we can get to know God just as we are.
Yeah, I agree it’s kind of hard to think of a spirit having gender. God is Spirit and yet we traditionally see a “Him”. That’s my point, really. God is beyond gender and yet we exclude half of humanity because we insist on a male pronoun. Either God is beyond (and we need a gender neutral pronoun that doesn’t reduce to “it”) or S/He is inclusive (and we need gender inclusive pronouns), neither of which English offers, as is.
The combines are clumsy, but I find it important enough to put up with it.
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PS to Ed: I think that you are correct to not throw out father metaphors because some have been abused by fathers. But there are many ways to understand our enormous God, and we will each be drawn to some aspects more than others. I am glad that those who had good-enough fathers can find hold onto that aspect of God.
I find my relationship with Him/Her via my art-career, worshipping the Artist-of-All-Things, the Greatest Creative Genius evah. I love to talk with God while, say, looking at a pert little chickadee outside my window, going over the marvelous ways that creature was put together, the colors used, the balance of forms, the eminent practicality combined with beauty.
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Well, as I point to scripture, I see absolutely no indication of a she/her. How do you reconcile that with the word Father, and that Jesus is HIS son, not HER son. HER was Mary. And we both know that it takes two of the opposite, right? I understand that you were hurt, and injured, emotionally, etc., by male figures, but I can’t reconcile a female/she/her/mother as God almighty, because scripture does not support those pronouns in regards to God. If God is Mother, then scripture would surely indicate such.
There is a teaching that I heard, a couple of times, that God is complete, and both of us (the two become one flesh) is a reflection of God (both male and female). I joke about that, saying, “So that’s what is meant by the saying for us men to get in touch with our feminine side, huh?” What I am trying to say, is that I think that God is both, and neither, if that makes any sense. But the two must become one in order to see that in an observation of a healthy relationship.
In other words, our reform folks see’s things in a carnal manner, mandating carnal gender roles, but fail miserably in the spiritual interpretations of almost all of scripture…mostly because they want to see things in the black and white, letter of the law, using exegesis, and systematic study. NO ONE will ever find anything spiritual using those teaching techniques. Spiritual things are hidden treasures that must be dug up, not something that is easily found by exegesis, or systematic study.
But, adding concepts in regards to God’s gender…that’s a bit strange in my mind, especially with the word Father, not mother, not sister, not aunt, etc.
Ed
Ed
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Ed (13.3:51pm) wrote, “What I am trying to say, is that I think that God is both, and neither, if that makes any sense. “ Yes, it does, and, well, that’s what I said too. And since this is at the center of both our proposals here, I will consider us in essential agreement on this point. How we draw our arabesques from that central point is interesting but not vital.
But we do differ on the function of scripture in a Christian’s life. There is more on heaven and earth than can be put into any book, no matter how heavy. And since that is so, how much smaller is the portion of God that can be revealed in same, who is immeasurably larger than heaven/earth!
I have some sewing to do (daughter’s wedding dress), and intend to meet my day’s goals before bedtime. So gotta go for now.
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“Though The Message is often considered a paraphrase, it is not explicitly; The Message was translated by Peterson from the original languages”
How did he get “God of green” from the original? That’s weird.”
Very weird. What verse are you talking about? While we are on this topic where did translators get the word “office” for some in the body of Christ? It is not in the Greek either.
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God refers to himself in feminine ways, as a mother hen gathering chicks. I do not ascribe a gender to God. Yes, Jesus was male, yes people in ancient times refered to God as he, although many of the words for God are actually plurals. But to claim that God is inherently male is to force a concept out of a linguistic phenomenon that we do not think of personages as “it” or neutral, and so use gender words for God. Clearly, during his time on earth, Jesus was male. But spirit, which is what all of God was before the incarnation and is after the ascension, does not necessarily have gender. And I would not make the fact that we use the male form for God as a reason to limit the service of one-half of the human population.
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Anon by Choice,
As much as I agree, I disagree. No matter how hard we try, we can’t get around that word “Father”.
Because, check this out…we have all put a gender on the Devil, Satan, Lucifer. Jesus states to the Pharisees that the devil is their FATHER.
Ed
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Patrice and Ed
Good agreement on ‘both and neither’. “El-Shaddai” means “God with Breasts” – indicating His/Her mothering, nurturing, supplying-of-sustenance-for-life side of His/Her nature.
Gary and Lydia
Thanks for nudging me into crystallizing my thoughts a lot more in putting together an answer for you. There is far too much to say in full on a comment here (but I’ve ended up not precising it enough, either) I can feel another article coming on, called “Doctrines of Demons – How to recognise them”.
The outline would be based around 2 Cor 11:3-4 “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of (devotion to) Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.”
The ‘devotion to’ is not in the original, but follows from the idea expressed in v2 and is valid, but detracts from what i believe Paul was actually referring to, namely, as 2 John 9 puts it – ‘the doctrine of Christ’. Simply put in terms of Gal 3:28, it is the COMPLETE equality, racial, gender and social, as new creation spirit beings in the likeness of God, partaking of the divine nature, and to be regarded no longer ‘according to the flesh’, anointed with the Holy Ghost and power, with unlimited access by faith alone into all of God’s promises, favour and enablings……etc! Any ‘doctrine’ that counters this, is a ‘doctrine of demons’.
It ends up being another Jesus, a different spirit and a different gospel.
1. “Another Jesus” Lydia is so right that the real Jesus isn’t better recognised and has become deformed into the mould provided by wrong doctrine. (getting red wobbly lines under my British spellings as I’m typing!) The real Jesus demonstrated God’s all-inclusive grace and acceptance of all who believe, who would receive Him. Pharisees rejected Him because He didn’t fit their doctrinal mould! They couldn’t ‘hear’ Him – neither can they today. “We are of God; he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 Jn 4:6) This ‘deifying of dogma’, that ‘exalts itself over the knowledge of God’, shows it’s demonic origin. Fruit produced from it is clearly stated in Jas 3:14-16 and Gal 5:19-21 as the works of the flesh. There is an ugly hard-heartedness and intransigency shown by proponents of this other Jesus.
2. “A different spirit”.
Already mentioned is the spirit of error, but there is also ‘the spirit of bondage again to fear’ (Rom 8:15) as opposed to the ‘Spirit of Liberty’ who bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God… with all the privileges of Sonship too …. never earned, just granted by HIS GRACE. The doctrine of Christ, the Anointed One and His anointings, emphasises what the new birth has achieved and our oneness with God in the Spirit – the glorious beauty of the ‘new man’ that we now are. With God’s ‘law of the spirit of life’ now written on our hearts, we now have no need for anyone to teach us to know the Lord, for all shall know Him from the least to the greatest. (Heb 8:10-11). ‘We have this anointing from the Holy One and we know all things… The anointing we have is truth… as it teaches, we abide in Him’. (1 Jn 2:20,27) ‘Doctrines of demons’ jar against this inner witness – so trust it!
FRUIT: Proponents will seduce and ‘draw disciples away to themselves’ (Acts 20:29) creating factions, ‘party spirit’ and an identifiable uniformity of belief and practice that they control.
Followers are always left in defeat, struggling against sin, feeling condemned and disqualified from unmerited blessing. They are put in bondage to fear of some un-named consequence of not complying to what they are told God expects. Freedom of speech in a healthy questioning of ‘official doctrine’ is discouraged.
3. “Another gospel”
We can all repeat the phrase, ‘saved by grace’ and think that we are living in it, while there has crept into our thinking, a subtle ‘must try harder’ assumption. The gospel of grace is so much more than our forgiving God being condescendingly ‘gracious’ toward our weakness and giving us the Holy Spirit to help US ‘get it right’! No, the Holy Spirit is given to teach us to abide in Him, stay crucified and let the fruit of the Life of Jesus growing in our inner man be our life. That is the place that faith opens, the ‘rest of God’, where we have ceased from our own works to be a ‘good Christian’. Any ‘doctrine’ that produces a faith-withering sin consciousness that anticipates denial of access to God’s goodness is demonic. Any ‘doctrine’ that creates a fear of death – specifically the ‘separation from God through our failures’ sort of death also produces bondage to a performance based religion – try harder, pray more, read God’s word more, resist sin more, give more, desire the ways of God more, be more dedicated, more ‘holy’, be less worldly….
FRUIT: Proponents create ‘guidelines’, lists of regulations on conduct in meetings and what it means to please God – omitting that ONLY faith (trust) pleases Him. They quench the spirit and are often Cessationist and Hierarchical. They demand tithes. They demand obedience. They ‘rule over’ like Gentiles. They blame the lack of evidence of God at work in their church on the congregation’s lack of holiness, rather than their erroneous ways and doctrine. They are judgmental, too quick to label ‘sin’ in others and criticise other churches’ doctrines. They are sticklers for their version of orthodoxy, labelling it ‘the faith’, while all along THEY have departed from ‘faith’ and rely on works. 1 Tim 4:1-3 sums it up perfectly “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from (the) faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage….(also women to obey their anointings…freedom of speech, expression, dress code, decisions on money and family affairs, etc…. ) and advocate abstaining from….many ‘good things freely given by God to us to enjoy’, because they are deemed ‘worldly’.
Followers are condemned to an endless cycle of defeat, forgiveness, try harder. They retain a lack of confidence towards God because their heart condemns them (1 Jn 3:20-22) Relationships are dysfunctional because of an overbearing Hierarchy application.
That’s a ‘sketch’ of what the spirit of error does with believers.
The ACTIONS of Jesus, then and now, demonstrate the Spirit of Truth, that counters it.
He elevated and dignified women. He broke talmudic tradition regarding speaking to women and entrusting them with a kingdom job. He honoured the despised (eg Mary Magdelene and Zaccheus). He was a friend of ‘unholy’ sinners. He valued children. He fearlessly defied and exposed talmudic ‘traditions of men’ and the hypocrisy of their proponents. He poured out His spirit on women and on the Gentiles. He did the unexpected. He always gave glory to His Father. He never condemned those who were weak, only those who claimed they could ‘see’, but were blindly leading others into the ditch…. and so on.
In short, God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and power, and he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.’ (Acts10:38) Still doing the same today through us – and what a privilege it is to be His co-workers!
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Just noticed I hadn’t copied over from where I continued writing the following amendment to “another Jesus”.
FRUIT produced from it is clearly stated in Jas 3:14-16 and Gal 5:19-21 as the works of the flesh. There is an ugly hard-heartedness and argumentative intransigency shown by proponents of this other Jesus. They preach and practice distinctions between people that Jesus never showed.
Followers of this other Jesus remain unconfident and confused about what He is like and therefore what He accepts, resulting in disempowerment in prayer and service.
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Allison,
Thank you for your early morning post (late morning to you?). Applying what you relate to Q’s misogynistic doctrine, I suggest the following verse applies:
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ (Mark 7:7, ESV)
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Good morning, Ed (13.8:11pm). You wrote that no matter what, God is Father and Satan is Father. Yes, in the Bible, nearly everyone of self-determination is Father and male. As Anon By Choice and Allison pointed out, there are a few passages that speak of a feminine aspect of God. And there are those rare folks, such as Deborah, Esther, Junia, etc. But it’s a scant sprinkling.
Imagine how you would eventually feel about yourself if the Bible told that everyone of importance, including God and Satan, were Mother and female. Try reading your Bible for a few days, changing all masculine to the feminine. Then imagine you were raised with that as God’s full truth. Further imagine that, from tyke on up, you were told repeatedly (orally/experientially at home/church/school) that you are made second, from the side of the female and that is why you should never take on self-determining roles. (I know you don’t think this about women but many do and there’s a sort of logic to it).
The end result is an odd estrangement at a fundamental level for half the human race. The sisters work very hard, telling and retelling themselves that they too are God’s children, that it’s not just sons of God but sons and daughters, that they are also made in God’s image, that they too are under Christ whose burden is light.
But it’s a shame to add this needless burden to the already difficult path that we all follow. That’s why I do the clumsy combine, to help us be aware of the extra burden we lay on half of us. I think we need to move towards the idea that whether we remove gender or add both to our understanding of God, our desire is to see ever more clearly this dear and wonderful God, a Being for every single one of us without reserve.
And that’s why, in the end, I think your and my issue is the extent we give scripture. I see that it tells us things of central unchanging importance but the real center of our lives lies in our walk with our God. A walk of living persons, both God and us, in our ever-changing-yet-same world. It has been a wonder to find that this path doesn’t make my faith fall by the way or become contaminated, but is instead deeper and more precious while the burden truly *is* light.
I don’t tell you this to change your mind, but to give explanation as to why there is this kind of hullabaloo among your sisters.
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Patrice,
Very well said, and I definitely see your point.
Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Ed
________________________________
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Allison, that was a pleasure to read. Thanks! Since I’ve been poking around in Evangelicalism again (only online), I’ve been appalled by this other god, not the one I know.
I think it is the worst kind of evil to re-define the real God. And people who don’t know God see this other definition and want nothing to do with him, for very good reasons. That’s another terrible fruit.
It was when I was gone from Evangelicalism that I found God. S/He is everywhere and is constantly calling and I am grateful that I could find Him/Her in a place unshackled by the heavy hard ideas with which I was raised. Coming back into Evang. circles with the true God by my side, I can clearly see that you are correct. It’s been an education!
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Glad to be of service, Patrice.
I really value you saying that it’s been helpful, since I’m VERY new at communicating anything like this. I spent 27 years incubating and was never allowed to speak it out in my previous church.
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So glad to “hear” your voice, Alison!
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Anon By Choice 11:40am 2/13 thank for your reply! I especially noted “I too have been a church leader and now minister to a working class neighborhood undergoing transition, but in which direction is unclear at present.”. There are those who would suggest you need to fulfil your God-given leadership “role” and “lead” the neighborhood by casting a “vision” to provide the direction it lacks (and “plant” a “localchurch”). I’m not one of those! 🙂
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Hello, Q– are you still here? maybe you missed my comment at 10:56am on 2/13?
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Dave,
I am doing what I believe I have been called to do, and which I was moved to this location about ten years ago to do. The neighborhood lost one very badly designed, built and operated poverty housing complex. The one next door to it was/is well run by an ex-drill sergeant who tolerates no drugs, violence, etc., and families strive to live there if they are eligible for public housing support. There are new houses in the neighborhood and some being rehabbed, like mine. And we have organizations etc., that are striving to build community, and more than enough local churches of mostly Baptist persuasion, both black and white; we need one that communicates in Spanish, in which I am not competent.
But, I watch from my office window in the front rooms of the house, visit with the passersby, and especially the children, and my goodbye on the phone and in person is an encouragement to remember that “God loves you”. And welcome strangers to come and sit and chat over a cup of coffee or a glass of water. It is a low key ministry.
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Q
Thanks for answering the questions…
I was busy with the snow all day yesterday…
Let me try and answer your questions @ FEBRUARY 12, 2014 @ 1:51 PM…
1 – What current popular Christian figure/figures do you most agree with?
2 – What Christian books if any would you recommend?
3 – Do you attend church and if so which one/ones?
—————
1 – What current popular Christian figure/figures do you most agree with?
I’m in agreement with those who named “Jesus” as the one I agree with.
I NO longer have it in me to Trust in Mere Fallible Humans. Most of my past “Heros of the Faith” that I listened to, read, and depended upon, – have fallen. And, eventually wound up teaching “Traditions of men and NOT the Bible.
And, WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, are taught in the scriptures to NOT trust in man. I had to learn this the hard way. BUT – Lesson Learned…
And – The Bible warns about 1-False apostles. 2- Many false prophets. 3- False teachers. 4- False brethren. 5- False Christ’s (false anointed ones).6- Decietful workers. 7- Evil workers. 8- Dogs and Swine.
Psalm 118:8-9
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Jer 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man…
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
2 Peter 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you:
2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived.
I’m in agreement with those who named “Jesus” as the one I agree with.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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