Breaking News: Doug Phillips of Vision Forum steps down from office of president at Vision Forum Ministries.
Doug Phillips has been very influential in the sub-culture of the Homeschool Movement. He was a popular keynote speaker at state-run homeschool conventions, speaking on topics of Biblical manhood, Patriarchy, men taking spiritual leadership of the home, creationism, a proponent of family-integrated churches and full quiver lifestyle. He and his wife, Beall, have eight children. We heard him speak numerous times.
Doug Phillips issued this statement yesterday:
* * *
Statement of Resignation
by Douglas Phillips, Esq., October 30, 2013
With thanksgiving to God for His mercy and love, I have stepped down from the office of president at Vision Forum Ministries and have discontinued my speaking responsibilities.
There has been serious sin in my life for which God has graciously brought me to repentance. I have confessed my sin to my wife and family, my local church, and the board of Vision Forum Ministries. I engaged in a lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman. While we did not “know” each other in a Biblical sense, it was nevertheless inappropriately romantic and affectionate.
There are no words to describe the magnitude of shame I feel, or grief from the injury I caused my beloved bride and children, both of whom have responded to my repentance with what seems a supernatural love and forgiveness. I thought too highly of myself and behaved without proper accountability. I have acted grievously before the Lord, in a destructive manner hypocritical of life messages I hold dear, inappropriate for a leader, abusive of the trust that I was given, and hurtful to family and friends. My church leadership came alongside me with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability. Where I have directly wronged others, I confessed and repented. I am still in the process of trying to seek reconciliation privately with people I have injured, and to be aware of ways in which my own selfishness has hurt family and friends. I am most sensitive to the fact that my actions have dishonored the living God and been shameful to the name of Jesus Christ, my only hope and Savior.
This is a time when my repentance needs to be proven, and I need to lead a quiet life focusing on my family and serving as a foot soldier, not a ministry leader. Though I am broken over my failures, I am grateful to be able to spend more time with my family, nurturing my wife and children and preparing my older sons and daughters for life. So, for these reasons I want to let my friends know that I have stepped down as a board member and as president of Vision Forum Ministries. The Board will be making provision for the management of the ministry during this time. To the friends of this ministry, I ask for your forgiveness, and hope that you will pray for the Phillips family at this time, and for the men who will be responsible for shepherding the work of Vision Forum Ministries in the future.
Doug Phillips
(Source)
Updated to add related articles:
- Doug Phillips Resigns from Vision Forum, Cancels Speaking Events, Due to “Inappropriate” Relationship
- End Child Protection: Doug Phillips, HSLDA, and the 2009 Men’s Leadership Summit
- Are Daughters the Biggest Threat to the Christian Patriarchy Movement and Reconstructionism? (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- On Doug Phillips’ Cultic “Patriarchy” Movement, Under Much Grace blog
- Video of Patriarchy Workshop (video), Cynthia Kunsman, RN, BSN, MMin, ND
- Stop the Ministry Madness, Ingrid Schlueter’s The Hope Blog
- The Heavy Burden of Doug Phillips’ Legalism Leads to His Resignation From Vision Forum, Jen’s Gems – Doug Phillips’ Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Abuse
Spiritual Sounding Board 
lynnedepthlook said
If your boss is in a position over you that does not make him more intelligent, willing, or important than you.
================
But your boss can stop being your boss one day if you
1 quit your job,
2 go to a new company, or
3 go into self business
If you were born a woman, you had no choice in that, and you will remain a woman forever. You cannot stop being a woman. So to tell women they should be limited in what they can do only due to gender and then condescendingly reassure them “but you are equal in value” does not change the fact they are not being treated equally.
It’s like the whites in the 1960s or 50s who said blacks were equal to whites but should be kept separate and have separate bathrooms and waterfountains. You can sit there all day saying how black people are “equal in value and worth but not in roles” and it’s still racism.
Telling women they are equal in being/salvation but not in function or role is still sexism.
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@ Peter Attwood
Telling them they should shut up about anything because they’re women or whatever is attacking the person instead of the argument
He was basically asking her to be consistent with her own patriarchal views that she was on her defending.
As a woman who disagrees with gender comp and patriarchy stuff, I can appreciate his point.
The patrio women should -going by their own rules and logic- not be on this blog criticizing Julie Anne or anyone else here, but should be doing dishes, baking cookies, or popping out babies.
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@ Peter Attwood Refute their errors convincingly enough to silence them. Until then, stay away fromtheir persons, as Jesus did. An important figure in the faith, worth imitating in his argumentation as in other things.
—————
It’s not ad hominem to merely point out to someone that she is not being consistent with her own views.
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Daisy,
Thank you for pointing out that it is not an ad hominem attack to point out that somebody says one thing and does the other. Still, it seems to be the way of some to think that any challenge to a person’s views is an attack on the person themselves. This enables them to assign moral turpitude to any given challenge of ideas, which then becomes the basis of discrediting their opponent’s views. The irony is that, in accusing me of ad hominem attack, Peter is attempting to silence me by subjecting me to ad hominem attack.
And no, I will not accept Peter’s interpretation of one cherry picked Scripture out of many relevant ones as requiring me to wait until he, Peter, has been silenced before I point out the hypocrisy inherent in his accusing me of ad hominem attack.
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When I met Doug (and another man I believed was his business partner-forgot his name) at a booth, at a fairly large Homeschool convention, he so impressed me that I chose to listen to all his talks (in the ballrooms) and even got his CD’s of those sessions.
I didn’t realize at the time that his biblical positions were not aligned to Calvary Chapels, never being exposed to reform ways.. I remember the catalogue he gave me had really expensive boys toys -I wondered who could afford them. It was as if you needed to purchase all this merchandise to truly raise a biblically correct boy to manhood. The right books, DVD’s,etc, let alone his curriculum.
I remember aspiring to have this kind of biblical correctness in my home.
I felt that unless I had a husband like this man I was doomed for spiritual failure in my home.
This thread brought back those memories.
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@missdaisyflower November 1, 2013 @ 1:25 AM
Actually, no, Christians are called to judge other Christians, see 1 Cor 5, 1 Corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
Actually, it is ironic that you cite 1 Cor 5:9-12 as justification for a “call” to judge this man. The actual “call” is to not associate with a so called brother who’s actions aare consistently against Christ. We are to remove them so as to protect the purity of the flock. Never are we called to excoriate, slander, speculate or condemn – ONLY God is competent to do so. So, The irony is that this man pens a letter in which he seeks forgiveness, repents and removes HIMSELF from leadership. No action was needed on the part of the flock to resolve this in alignment with 1 Cor 5.
God’s word is CLEAR that we are NOT to judge ANYONE:
Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
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Julie – my review of that tell-all memoir on the American patriarchy/quiverful group went up this morning. Hopefully this information can be useful – I would like to see some of these defenders of Doug Philips read it. I know that’s probably dreaming, but oh well.
http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/the-true-story-of-the-damaged-daughters-of-patriarchy-a-memoir/
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Another tactic of people like Peter is that they will attempt to set the rules of engagement. In his comment this morning at 12:02 AM, he would hold me to the requirement that I say only those things that would be permitted in a legal proceeding. Being a lawyer myself, I can assure one and all that this blog, and every blog, would become tedious indeed if that were the requirement. If such a requirement were to be applied to theological debate in general, many thousands of books would have to be burned. I dare say the Bible itself would have to be banned!
What’s funny, though, is that, according to Rule 801 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, a witness can be cross-examined in Federal Court on the basis of having testified in a manner that is inconsistent with their prior inconsistent statements. So, even if we accept Peter’s it’s-only-permissible-here-if-its-permitted-in-a-legal-proceeding rule, I get to challenge the defenders of Doug Phillips on the basis of their inconsistencies.
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Katy,
Thank you for your review.
My husband was raised in a Patriarchal church. I have friends who escaped it only to be shunned by their families. Yet, the DP apologists here would have us drip with sympathy and compassion for the poor sap who couldn’t live up to the standards he foisted on others.DP is reaping what he has sown. Many sons and daughters of this movement live every day with the scars Patriarchy has inflicted. These are the sheep I will defend loudly.Where is the forgiveness and compassion that DP’s cronies should have shown them?
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John,
While I recognize that it can be challenging to walk the line, what you sat at 6:34 applies to only judgment as condemnation. The Scriptures you cite do not prohibit judgment in the sense of discernment. Where Dough Phillips, the man, is concerned, I hope for nothing but the best for him and, especially, his family. However, his ideas appear to me to be heretical and dangerous. His substitution of authority in the place of love as the organizing principle in Christian relationships is especially pernicious. Therefore, though I will not celebrate the discomfiture of the man, I do celebrate the fact that his fall is a very public demonstration of the inadequacy of his ideas to deliver the kind of Godliness we all desire.
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“Another tactic of people like Peter is that they will attempt to set the rules of engagement.”
Exactly. A very old tactic to some of us. I simply don’t play by their rules. But Peter would have us off into a mindless proof texting war with people from a “religious” cultic movement whose very foundational premises are totally opposite. It is a fruitless exercise.
Some of those faulty foundational premises are:
Teaching that the sin effects of the fall are really Christian virtues. An insidious interpretation that blasphemes God while elevating mere humans in His place.
A belief that women, by definition of their genitals, are perpetually deceived. (And I do not debate or discuss with any women who believe such nonsense because it negates the sacrifice of our Savior, the Cross and Resurrection).
A belief that there are “God appointed” mediators between certain adults and Jesus Christ.
There are more but with that sort of faulty thinking, what point would a non contextual proof texting war serve
BTW: Comments from that patriarchal culture here are also dripping with Calvinism as in all sins are the same, our very existence is sin so we should expect Born Again believers to continue in sin and the constant appeal to authoritarianism negating the work of the Holy Spirit in an adult believers life. In Calvinistic Patriarchy, the peasants don’t need the Holy Spirit. They have a human mediator instead.
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Yes, I agree. Discernment is indeed a key distinction. I intentionally never use judgement when I mean discernment because people often twist it into the wrong meaning. This is like twisting the word Love of which there are many distinct meanings that always need to be conveyed in context.
I find it remarkable that people assume I’m defending Phillips, I am not. I’m really trying to point out that we need to follow Christ teaching and not sin in whatever is motivating the negative enrgy in this thread. Ep 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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“Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.”
John, Are you implying by citing this proof text that MissDaisy is having an “emotional affair” with someone? Is she practicing the same thing?
Doug Phillips is a long time charlatan hawking his brand of Jesus to make a buck and ruining some naive folks in the process. There are still some sites left out there that go into some detail concerning Phillips’ rendition of a 21st Century money changer. There is plenty out there to “judge” on someone who calls himself not only a follower of Christ but one who claims he is qualified to pastor, teach and has sought to be a public figure who makes bank off Jesus’ name.
He is fair game. Yes, we will judge. And you are free to call it a sin and proof text all day long. Some of us know the proof text game well.
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I find it remarkable that people assume I’m defending Phillips, I am not. I’m really trying to point out that we need to follow Christ teaching and not sin in whatever is motivating the negative enrgy in this thread. Ep 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
More proof texting. Am I to assume your understanding of that proof text is we are not warn others of charlatans or hold “Christian” public figures accountable because it is not really them sinning but Satan forcing them to sin?
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Above, I posted a link to an article at The Hope Blog. This comment by John is worth reading:
(http://ingridschlueter.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/stop-the-ministry-madness/#comment-13440)
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Julie Anne: “Ah, no problem, Mara. And I’m sure Gary will understand. He completely gets it.”
I was so disgusted with myself last night that I just put myself in time-out last night (code for going to bed,)
This morning I was glad to see my ill-conceived posts deleted your response above.
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“It is not the patriarchal system of which he claimed to follow, or whatever other ancient order he profaned. He is a spiritual son of Satan, full of lies, who had credibility for a time.”
The “patriarchal” system in that religious construct gave Phillips the perfect venue to carry out his evils in hawking Jesus, unquestioned, for a long time. It would NEVER have worked without that system of beliefs. People beleiving in Patriarchy is what allowed him to be so successful.
We would have to define John’s beliefs about Patriarchy because he is weaving a political patriarchal system with a religious one. The state church patriarchal system never really caught on here after the Puritans died out. (Their descendents in the NE became, for the most part, Unitarians, which is telling)
However, there has been some forms of patriarchal thinking in the US since it’s Declaration in the form of slavery, only male land owners being able to vote and women denied the franchise for a long time. Being true to our Declaration of self determinism, each one of these societal patriarchal rules simply could not last.
That is why it saddens me to see so many people going backwards and following gurus instead of Christ.
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Great comment about VF…scroll down to number 82 by FaithManor today at 10:20. Too lengthy to post here in its entirety, but very interesting to read (about what Philips teaches in a nutshell).
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/492983-has-this-been-discussed-doug-phillips-resigns-from-vision-forum/page-2
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@Julie Anne- that comment by John is excellent. amen.
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“I feel it is important to note that often times we should no longer pray for these predators. There are sins that are simply unforgivable without reconciliation initiated by the perpetrators, Catholics and Orthodox would call these sins “mortal,” and we should understand that there is absolutely nothing that we can do to help these people.”
I think John gets it right on this part. You walk away from them. You hand them “over”. And if they are truly repentent, they get out of public eye and stop hawking Jesus for profit. (That is all Phillips knows how to do). They will become serious nobodies. (I think Phillips’ statement was written in such a way he will pull a Mahaney)
Pray for those who have been so deceived by these charlatans. Lots of folks think what I say sounds mean and for a while years ago, I bought into the cheap grace trick “Christians” trot out for their favorite gurus. That was until a friend of mine who is a judge and agnostic asked me some interesting questions about “Christians”. He wanted to know why they packed the courtroom when Porn shop zoning law hearings were on demanding stricter laws but then packed out a courtroom when a “Christian” pedophile was caught begging for leniency because he is a “Christian” and has a “family” who will be hurt never offering solace to the victims! They are hypocrites who do not love Justice. Grace and Justice go together but you would never know that with most Christians who prop up their evil gurus.
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There are different forms of patriarchy. The “wisdom of the elderly” is a cultural form that respects the elderly and seeks their advice and guidance on matters of importance. The religious “man is responsible for and dominates woman” form, often combined with “pastor has religious authority over congregant”, is based on misinterpretation of scripture due to biased translation in a variety of Bible versions beginning with the KJV and those based or defaulting to the KJV choice of meanings. The two forms of patriarchy are also different in that one seeks respect of the elderly, but not subservience to the elderly, whereas the American religious authoritarian form expects women to be totally subservient to men and to avoid any hint or suggestion of not being subservient.
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Hey folks, I thought I had read it all. Diane mentioned this comment above- – here is the direct link: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/492983-has-this-been-discussed-doug-phillips-resigns-from-vision-forum/?p=5280822
This comment is mind-boggling, bone-chilling, and very eye-opening. This information needs to get out.
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@Daisy:
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!” hostile?
Or Perry Noble straining-on-the-can-with-massive-constipation hostile?
Either way, it’s obvious to Schaapf that women exist for One Thing and One Thing Only. Especially if they’re under 18.
And Rank Hath Its Privileges.
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@Lydia:
Get stomped on by one extreme and you flee to the other extreme.
Communism begets Objectivism.
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@ThinkingChristian:
Someone (in a different context) posted about a general trend today of “Exquisite Sensitivity towards any slight which might be done to us, coupled with Total Indifference to any slight we might give to another.”
With or without a Christianese coat of paint.
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@Sam:
Just as “it all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”, so it all depends on what the meaning of “sex” or “adultery” is. If (like a lot of Christianese) “sex” and “adultery” means only “insert Tab A in Slot B, pump, lather, rinse, repeat”, he can wipe his mouth and say “I Have Not Sinned” with a completely straight face.
@BTDT:
It means the Groupies have landed. Harley Quinns defending their Joker.
No matter how crazy you are, the Internet makes linking up with other like-minded crazies a lot easier. Instead of ranting on a street corner alone, you can link up and form a Movement. Makes it so easy to call Jihad on anything.
@GaryW:
Because they’re only WOMEN, that’s why.
Godly Commander of Holy Gilead outranks any of his Handmaids.
@sunshinemary (Handmaid OfDoug? Or just a Harley Quinn?)
Sounds a LOT like “Everybody’s Doing It(TM)!”
(Which I had used on me once as a pickup line…)
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JA @ 8:52AM,
Awesome comment!
I also want to point out that if DP abided by his own Reconstructionist views, http://rethinkingvisionforum.org/2011/09/11/vision-forum-christian-reconstructionism-stonin/ he would offer himself to be stoned for adultery. And to all of those who would gasp at my “unforgiving” suggestion, I’m just reiterating what DP has already subjected others to. Let him be judged by his own standards.
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Wow, Julie Anne. You really stirred up a hornet’s nest, posting about this. Glad you’re letting everyone hash it out, though it can get a bit dizzying. Dee and Deb are planning their own post about Philips, too. Hope they’re ready for the Invasion of the Patriarchy Trolls.
Sooooo much going on…. can’t keep up….
Doug Philips, we hardly knew ya.
Or rather, I hardly knew a thing about him, other than that his views on sex and marital relations are positively bizarre. Others here seem to have known him all too well. 😦
I hope Doug will repent — of a lot of things. I hope he’ll actually start loving his family, instead of trying to control them. I hope he’ll give up on trying to make America into his own image — the image he has of a “historical Biblical patriarchy”, which probably never existed anyway.
As for his philosophy — I agree with whoever said it above (I think it was Gary) that it comes from the pits of Hell. I hope it rots there.
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I have no experience with Doug Philips, but anyone that tells others how to live then does the opposite is a hypocrite.
Gary W gave a good listing of the Bible verses.
Steven Furtick is another example, He guilt trips people into giving “Because everything belongs to God and not you!” In the meantime, he is quietly amassing a fortune.
I understand that people sin, but people who tell me what to do and act “holier than thou” while engaging in sin make my blood boil!
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J.A. “This comment is mind-boggling, bone-chilling, and very eye-opening. This information needs to get out.”
Faith Manor: “My heart breaks for her. I’d love to get a van and go get her and the kids. I’d love for her to spend some time in therapy finding out that hey, God loves her too and never, ever intended for her to live such a defeated existence.”
AMEN J.A. I can hardly believe what I just read!
So creepy, I feel bad for Beall, she has been indoctrinated by evil. I would jump in that van with FaithManor, I wish there was a way to support her, she needs to be rescued.
Jaw dropping on floor. Everyone needs to read what Faith wrote. See Links above.
Just a couple of quotes. It must still be Halloween because I am spooked beyond belief.
“Women cannot take communion/eucharist unless their husband or father serves him. In the absence of one of them on Sunday, a son…even one too young to be allowed to take himself…can serve his mothers and sisters, but if she has no son to do this, she’s out of luck. Women literally cannot speak inside the church building…not even to shush a child. Oft times moms and elder sisters end up outside the building completely missing service because how does one deal with children without speaking to them? Note that the men who are allowed to speak are not dealing with their offspring.”
“In one of Doug’s own blogs, he talked about the birth of their eldest and youngest children. The eldest was born at a hospital and he judged that his wife was well enough to NOT need to stay. Two hours later he took her home and decided they should stop som where to eat. He took his two hr. old son, and his just birthed wife into a diner for a meal. He thought this was a wonderful idea and bragged about it. I, on the other hand, thinking of risk of infection to her, her physical exhaustion, etc. just wanted to puke. His essential attitude was that a good Christian woman births a baby with ease and is back to work pretty much immediately. When their youngest, Virginia was born, it was a home birth in which Doug was not present with Beall. Instead, he gathered eight other men (elders) from Boerne Christian Assembly in his living room, just down the hall from the birthing room, and Beall was required to birth fairly silently so as to not embarrass the men or herself. They waited together to bless the baby. When was Virginia was born, Doug required the midwife to bring the baby to him first, and he posted pictures of how the men passed her from male to male, holding the baby over their heads apparently as a sign of her being an offering to God or something – it was really CREEPY – as each prayed, and then the baby was returned to Beall so she could hold her. AND BEALL PUT UP WITH THIS!”
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I am sad but the letter, but I know God is a God of Restoration. His glory shines through broken vessels in a beautiful way. It took humility to say what was said in that letter, and that deserves respect and love from the body of Christ Jesus. I will be praying for this family. I hope all of you will, too.
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BTDT said:
Touché, BTDT. But these guys have rules for others that do not apply to themselves. They are above all of that. That is how they work. That is why this blog exists – – – to help those who had to live under such hypocrisy know that they weren’t going crazy – – – it is a messed up system.
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One thing I learned early on in my journey of recovery from growing up female in a tradition highly influenced by patriarcal convolutions of scripture is this: there is a difference between forgiveness and trust.
Forgiveness is never earned, it is given by grace. We forgive because God first forgave us, we understand that we are fellow sinners in need of grace, it is commanded of us to do so, etc.
I do forgive Mr. Phillips, and have long ago forgiven him and those like him, for philosophical and theological influence on those who put so many stumbling blocks in my path when I was young woman.
Where no debt is owed, there is no debt to cancel, or forgive. Mr. Phillips is not my leader; he owes me nothing. Despite his rather public apology, the sin he now confesses is a very private one against God, an unnamed woman, his family, his congregation, and those who trusted and followed him based on false claims of godly integrity. He has not sinned against me with respect to his affair. Therefore, there is nothing in it for me, personally, to forgive. I wish him grace and forgiveness, repentance, and even (dare I say) enlightenment in his journey of restoration with those he has wronged. I do not rejoice that he has sinned.
Trust is another matter. It is earned. “Let another take his place” and so forth. I do very much rejoice that, by God’s grace, this man’s unworthiness of trust has been revealed to those willing to see it. Perhaps the wisdom of trusting in his self-made gospel of family heirarchy will also be questioned by some who now follow him.
That is why i rejoice. It is not a matter of unforgiveness. It is a matter of joy that God is, indeed, still in the business of purifying his Bride, the Church. He is purifying her for himself by freeing her from those who enslave and shackle and restrain her from her freedom and purpose, from those who put stumbling blocks in the paths of young women and unbearable, impossible yokes on women and men who belong to God. I make no apologies for being thrilled about this: God is at work in his Church.
My apologies for being so longwinded.
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Just reading all this reminds me of how thankful I am for my father. He’s a conservative guy, but he absolutely expected all his children to get an education and be able to work out our own lives, because there was no way to know if your perfect life was going to fall apart. Back in the 1970s, his top salesperson was a woman who had been widowed and had to go back into the workforce, and she was frequently held up to us as an example of “this is how you do it, kids.” I wish I could tell Dad again how thankful I am, but he is in mid-stage Alzheimer’s now and my younger brother is his caretake. I think he’d be pleased to know that his children took his counsel and are living reasonably secure lives (given the crazy, mixed-up economy we have today).
I’ve often thought about the sons and daughters of patriarchy and how they’re not being raised to meet the challenges of the current world. I’m not talking about Miley Cyrus on the MTV, I’m talking about being able to marry and raise families with jobs that pay reasonably. I think a lot of these patriarchs live in little bubbles, and as their kids get older and get out in the world, these young people are going to find that no, they’re not prepared, and they’re not going to know how to make up for it, because they’re stuck in the same bubble. Doug Phillips didn’t help the situation and we’re going to see the dismal results for years to come.
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Gail: If you read Jen’s Gems, you will see that Beall has been a willing participant in Phillips’ deeds.
I have a lot of mixed feelings about Beall. I think there is a cognitive dissonance going on. How can there not be when your identity as a woman is so belittled?
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Godly Commander of Holy Gilead outranks any of his Handmaids Now I remember why I hung out on the comment threads at TWW. HUG and his cynicism are charming. It’s like a siren song to my poor jaded heart. ;P
Yes I read Jen’s account several months ago and quickly found Beall so terrible that I didn’t finish the whole thing. Here’s the deal: we start out as victims, but then we make the choice whether we want to be better than our abuser, or if we want to join him in his power by abusing others. I don’t have good feelings for Beall but it doesn’t matter – all that matters is that there are 8 innocent children who were born into this cult, and they will have the scars to show for it.
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Doug only gave up his ‘ministry’. He is still the CEO of several multi million dollar organizations. Are the sheeple going to quit purchasing the cheap made in China merchandise offered by VF? I highly doubt it. Come January Douggie will be back in the saddle. Follow the money.
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I was noticing hits from Doug Wilson’s blog. He posted about Phillips’ statement of resignation, linking to this post. But look what else he added:
He could have linked to the Vision Forum statement, but he chose to link to my blog. I’m wondering if this is why – – my October 28 post:
Doug Wilson Shares Sex Advice to Married Couples When Distance Separates Them
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Welcome, Gertrude 🙂
You’re only giving him 2 months?
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I’m more surprised by most peoples reactions on here than what Doug did. What he did was bad, but are we not “Christians,” too?! Have we forgotten that David in the Bible had a sexual relationship with a woman that was not his wife. He went even further than Doug did. He planned the murder of the woman’s husband to cover it up. Have we not forgiven David, of the Bible, for this?! Yes. We are also to do the same for Doug. At least Doug is coming clean with his without physical murder. David stood for the Lord like Doug has been standing for Him, too. Doug will have enough consequences to come as a result from all of this in his own family without us Christians trying to bash him and put him more in his place. This can happen to anyone of us. But hopefully he and his family will heal from this, and come back in the future to teach what happened here. To help others not fall so easy to all of this, and how important accountability is for a man in his position. This is a huge hurting to his integrity, family, and company. But it is not the end. If it is handled right, and he keeps turning to the Lord, his door will be open to help others that fall to this, get the help they need. He might always be known for this. That is one of the consequences. But what about the verse that tells he who has no sin throw the first stone! No, we might not have done what he did, but would we want our dirty laundry aired to the nation? I think not. And is sin not sin. To God, is not just “thinking” of a lustful thought in your mind,, on the same level as actually doing it?! It’s not about according to our standards, but it’s about according to God’s standards. I’m not just talking to others but to myself, too. I have needed this reminder, too. We are to be in prayer for the Philips family and not bashing them.
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Actually, Gary, I didn’t say you should only be held to the rules in a legal proceeding. What I did say is that the kind of ad hominem attack and discourtesy that is unacceptable to any judge in this world is clearly not proper for us before God.
In the same way, when reproving people for bringing crappy sacrifices to Gos, Malachi suggested that they bring that to their governor.
The alternatives are not between endless proof-texting and reviling. If your aim is to persuade them, reviling them certainly fails, just as reviling you doesn’t change your mind – unless in fact it was a successful means to bully you in the past. In that case, healing is to learn how to escape the power of reviling, a thing which Matthew 5 and Hebrews 11 promise will be played against us. That’s not likely so long as we’re relying on it ourselves. Reviling is a tool of Satan, the Bible is very clear on that. Both as practitioners and victims, we need out of there, and it’s not likely that we can really escape its power while we use it.
Somebody had a very good word about forgiveness and trust. There’s nothing to add to it – forgiveness is free, and trust is earned. That I don’t trust the 2-year-old to carry the red wine over the white carpet is a trust issue. It has nothing to do with forgiveness.
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Shirley: What if Phillips is not a Believer? Then what?
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Yes, Doug P has given the enemies of Christ great opportunities to blaspheme — but he did that with his Vision Forum businesses and patriarchy teaching.
Me thinks Doug Wilson is using the scriptures in quite a useful manner.
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@ HUG
“Someone (in a different context) posted about a general trend today of “Exquisite Sensitivity towards any slight which might be done to us, coupled with Total Indifference to any slight we might give to another.”
I definitely believe it is a good thing to put into daily practice “overlooking an offense.” Otherwise, you will be offended and upset by every little slight or meanness which is not good. However, I have seen a bunch of situations where Christians have slandered, lied, extraordinarly mean-spirited, malicious gossips, etc and it just rolls off of them like water. To go back to a person that you have wronged, truly wronged, not some pettiness, and repent and asked for forgiveness is becoming a foreign concept for most American Christians I’m afraid.
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“One of the reasons why men in Christian leadership have to be so careful in their lives is that this response is so entirely predictable.”
Ooooo, yes. It’s all our fault, isn’t it Doug Wilson? Now we are responsible for DP’s sin. Actually, DW’s response is sooooo predictable.
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Gary, of course you get to question people on their inconsistencies. Indded, it’s good to be tough on them that way.
For instance Jesus shut them up about healing on the sabbath by asking which of them would not water his animal or pull him out of a pit on the sabbath.
I was specifically speaking of reviling and name-calling when we haven’t yet shut them up as Jesus did in that case.
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Hi MissDaisy! @11:41 “Not me. I’ve been waiting my whole life until marriage to have sex, and I haven’t married yet, and I’m a bit past 40.” I appreciate that you have remained faithful in that area, and that you assume that Doug Phillips has not. Heck, he probably didn’t, but nonetheless, we really can only speak of what the man himself actually wrote, and not put words into his mouth. He said he had not consummated his affair with sex, and so, despite the imaginative conjecture of many–we should limit our response to what he actually has admitted to doing. don’t know how “far” they actually went, if his partner is being treated well, was into the affair, was manipulated and used, was using him, has a family, was young or old, etc. I certainly don’t know if Doug Phillips is inflicting further pain on his family, either. We should be careful with this stuff, “hating the very garment polluted by flesh.” Otherwise, we might find ourselves slandering and lying about something that we don’t have actual evidence of. I know you would’t want to do that.
@12:41am you cited 1 Cor 5 as an argument that we should judge Doug Phillips for his sin. I’ve looked that passage over, along with ones such as Psalm 75:2 in which the Lord states that it is He who ultimately judges. It is unwise to study 1 Cor 5 (the believer who was committing adultery with his step-mom, most likely) and not also meditate on 2 Cor 2:1-11, where Paul again addresses the issue of this man, and how the Corinthian church, having failed to accept his repentance and welcome him into fellowship, must now itself change its thinking, and extend a loving, compassionate welcome to him. I assumed that Doug Phillip’s letter of resignation was his attempt at repentance–if you don’t find that attempt satisfactory, fine. But it is the only document we possess presently about the whole mess, so it should be presumed legitimate until proven otherwise, just as we would any other document, and the Bible itself.
@12:43am You stated that the contents of James 3:1 and 1 Timothy argued that we (the church) are responsible for holding leaders to “higher standards.” I agree with that statement, but feel it has been very poorly supported in this posting thread. Many of our conclusions regarding the right to “judge” Doug Phillips, censure his attempt at repentance, accept his assertion of no having had intercourse, (or whatever!) in his affair, are void of the acknowledgement of God in the whole sordid affair. Our quickness to jump on the kick-Doug-Phillips-the-adulterer/liar/patriarcist/false-teacher, etc. carries no teeth, because it doesn’t possess the divine authority and “punch” that Paul did when he truly did “deliver over” the unrepentant brother of 1 Cor 5. So, if I were speaking to member of my own church, I might ask, “Has your censure and criticism of Doug Philips the past couple of days built up your faith and led you into a more authentic life of following Christ?” If so, drive on, and more power to you! If not, perhaps God hasn’t called us to become as heavily invested in the mess as we appear to have.
I don’t know how I’ve ended up seeming to defend this guy. Honestly, I’m not a home-schooler, and knew nothing about his whole deal until Julie Anne shared some things with me about it, last year. As far as I know, this whole train-wreck is truly just the tip of an gigantic iceberg of crud. I just feel that we may have taken a wee too much pleasure in the man’s horrid failure, that’s all.
Sorry to have kept you up so late!
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Shirley,
“But what about the verse that tells he who has no sin throw the first stone!”
According to Dougie’s Reconstructionist views, he would advocate stoning as punishment for adultery. Follow your leader.
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“Shirley: What if Phillips is not a Believer? Then what?”
This is a very good point, and Paul’s answer seems clearly that we need not reach that question: “If any so-called brother . . .” is when you have nothing to do with them. Those outside are those that are not even making the claim to be believers.
This gives some guidance on how to deal with hypocrisy. As Jesus did, you hold people to their profession, rather than name-calling. People are not convicted of sin by being called names, but when their hypocrisy is plainly revealed from their own words and deeds, it becomes uncomfortable to be inside the company of believers. We’ve come some way from Acts, when the rest were afraid to join themselves to them!
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Julie Anne
November 1, 2013 @ 10:15 AM
Gail: If you read Jen’s Gems, you will see that Beall has been a willing participant in Phillips’ deeds.
J.A. I am working my way through Jen’s Gems, I had never heard of her. Now on top of being physically ill from infection, I am now spiritually ill at how Jen was treated by Beall. There are so many layers to someones story, I think I need to be quiet till I hear from all sides. Now, my heart aches.
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Good point, Peter. I think we need to be very prudent about these things. We need to distinguish the difference between someone saying Christian words and acting like a Believer, yet living a life of hypocrisy.
What concerns me are those who hear those words, yet turn a blind eye towards abuse again and again. They welcome celebrity leaders on the basis of their words solely, not by their actions. And the cycle of abuse continues.
I cannot believe how many comments I am reading where people are saying Phillips is truly repentant. It’s too soon to say that. I think it’s appropriate to say that he has made an important first step. I have issues with the public statement, but there were some good points. But the fruit is not in the statement.
Again – – – he needs to come clean on his Vision Forum business, too. He has not done that.
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It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
Here are the passages in question. They point out a concept of which the American Church is woefully ignorant:
An “Assembly” of equals as all being priests of God, spiritually brothers and sisters, of one mind, able TO INSTRUCT ONE ANOTHER (instead of “sitting under a teacher” as so many do and indeed have become accustomed to do every Sunday morning- this is NOT the biblical definition of “Church” in any sense of the word but rather a gathering of individuals to “be taught” rather than a fellowship) and “in spirit” with one another, the grief and agony and shame the ENTIRE BODY feels should be enough to EXPEL the person from among them IMMEDIATELY. We have lost this in our “churches”. This is the way to tell a true believer from a wolf, if it is truly a believer they would be HEARTBROKEN and HUMILIATED by being “put out” as the brother who was having an incestuous affair in Corinth was! In the passage in 2 Corinthians Paul says in effect “Enough! he is a broken man!, receive him back and love him lest he become suicidal and completely overwhelmed by sorrow…” If Mr. Phillips and anyone else caught in sins like this belonged to a true “Assembly” in the biblical sense of the word that was willing to “put people out” immediately, we would all KNOW almost immediately the STATE OF THEIR HEART because the true Christian caught in sin is a broken, contrite, humiliated, pleading, begging person.
Instead we have “authority figures” that were never meant to have such authority but were meant to be accountable to all of us as a brother or sister -getting caught in these kid of acts and getting free passes with a quick “apology”.
The model is broken, folks.
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He gave my daughter the “creeps” she was most uncomfortable with him. He may be forgiven, but trust is a whole different issue.
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Shirley,
I never heard of Philips before getting into this conversation. Outside of the universe of his victims, who seem to be well-represented here, he’s not a big deal.
But what he represents and preaches is the expression of the oldest and most fundamental injustice in the world, after the oppression of God and the suppression of the truth, which is its foundation – the oppression of Woman by the devil, answered by his destruction by her seed (Genesis 3:15). This doctrine is the preaching of Satan’s malice among God’s people, and he has not professed to repent of that in the least.
This has deep roots in Christianity. For instance, it is commonly preached that the woman brought sin into the world, while the account makes it entirely clear, as Paul observes in Romans 5:12, that the man and not the woman did that. Only when he ate, not when she ate, did they see that they were naked.
Moreover, she is blamed for the same kind of lying that Adam did, who blamed God and the woman in one breath – now there is some real economy of lying speech. By contrast, she told the whole truth, and nothing else: “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
It’s noteworthy that those finding fault say that she did wrong by accusing the serpent instead of copping to the whole thing herself, but what they overlook is that Adam was lying in blaming his sin on either God or the woman, because neither caused his transgression, whereas Satan did truly sucker the woman. Those that think that way – not coincidentally – commonly want women to take the blame for everything that goes wrong in their lives, including the wrongdoing of their abusers.
That lie starts right there, in blaming the woman for speaking correctly. Adam testified to the truth when he named her the mother of all living; she was indeed the mother of all faith through confessing the truth, and she was the only one in the story that obtained a promise – that her seed would destroy the serpent that had deceived her.
Look at all this, and it becomes clear that we’re not looking at small matters here. This is as fundamental a contest between good and evil as it gets. White supremacy is a big deal in the USA, founded as it is upon slavery and genocide. Man’s oppression of woman is much bigger.
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At 10:54 AM Peter says “Actually, Gary, I didn’t say you should only be held to the rules in a legal proceeding. Well Peter, what you said was “Attacking them instead of their arguments is so dishonest that you’ll get punished for it in any court of the unjust.” That sure looks to me like you are attempting to, as I **actually** put it, “hold me to the requirement that I say only those things that would be permitted in a legal proceeding.”
But you’re not satisfied with attempting to deny a subtly twisted version of what I accurately described you as having asserted. You now claim that you said, “What I [Peter] did say is that the kind of ad hominem attack and discourtesy that is unacceptable to any **judge** in this world is clearly not proper for us before God.” No. That is simply false. What you actually said was “if you [Gary] wouldn’t dare to talk to opposing counsel like that in a hearing room in the presence of even an **administrative hearing officer,** is it really OK to do so before God?” (Emphasis added.) I could almost let you squeak by with that one inasmuch as administrative hearing officers, when acting in a judicial capacity, may be called administrative law judges. Still, you are claiming to have said things you didn’t actually say.
Well, if you are going to attempt to rehabilitate yourself by mischaracterizing not only the things I actually said, but also your own prior assertions, then I hereby submit to the jury of Julie Anne’s readers that your credibility is totally shot. It’s too bad. You actually seem to have some sensible things to say.
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Peter Atwood @12:10 –
What you say here is what bothers me the most. That men lie about the scriptures to get what they want in this life. There are thousands of women and children who are taught to perpetuate these lies . . . and many sons continue in their father’s footsteps.
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Gary, the point I made before, as I already made clear, is that conduct that a judge of this world would not put up with puts us on notice that we shouldn’t act like that in the presence of the Judge of all. I supported this with the example of Malachi inviting them to know how wrong it was to offer crappy sacrifices to God by what they could expect if they offered such to their governor.
That doesn’t mean that Malachi was holding them to whatever protocol they were supposed to follow in paying their taxes to the governor. He was only trying to make them wonder why they would expect God to accept a sacrifice that would be an insult to the governor.
I think that you would do well to stop trying to prove I’m a bad guy long enough to deal honestly with the questions that matter to everyone here – how to dispute false teachers and the place of reviling – especially since whether I am a bad guy has limited relevance to anyone who doesn’t have to deal directly with me. But since we disagree about exactly this point, I suppose that I should expect you to act in accordance with what you believe about it.
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All of this defense of Doug Phillips is a lot of sickening hypocrisy, and the condemnation of his critics is laughable nonsense.. Why in the world would anyone want to be a Christian when the worst possible examples of Christianity are being defended by so many people? Frankly, I’m glad to walk away from it all.
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Eric, a lot of it is how any group tends to circle the wagons – cops, lawyers, the education industry, bishops supporting pedophile priests, and so forth. there’sno excuse for it. It’s just how ugly it gets when people profess to be Christians and conform so closely to this present world. It’s been said that Christianity – in contrast to what Jesus and the apostles taught, is the ancient world’s last creation. American Christianity is the creature of the American world, which it created itself 400 years ago through such apostasy as claiming to be the light of the world while relying on genocide for its existence. Some very fundamental things need to be looked at and thoroughly repented of, and very few professing Christians will do that. And those that do will do so, just barely, because we’re convinced by God that nothing else will enable us to survive. It’s a time of stress that Paul described to Timothy – “haters of good, lovers of pleasure rather than God,” and so forth, concluding with the advice “from such turn away.” In its context, he’s talking about the professing church, not those outside. Many leaving it are not falling away from Christ but taking Paul’s advice – from such turn away.
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Peter, Vague, blanket arrogant rebukes never work. Give examples of “reviling” and name calling.
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Julie-t,
Welcome! You are so right. Trust is going to be the biggest test he’ll have to pass.
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We were talking earlier about the value of calling people names – hypocrites and so forth, before having disposed of their arguments as Jesus did. Gary then continued calling me names, evidently misunderstanding what I’d actually said, and so we’ve talked about it further. Examine his posts for specifics.
Lydia, if “vague, blanket arrogant rebukes never work,” which was my point, I think you should take your own advice. What is arrogant about my arguing against reviling before we have silenced someone’s argument? You don’t have to agree with me, but that doesn’t make it arrogant. We just don’t agree.
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“We just don’t agree.”
Well, I agree with that! :o)
What did Jesus say to the “religious” people of His time? (wink)
What many fail to realize is we are dealing with a cultic movement. Not sure if you have read up on them or even their teaching but it is a cult because there is so much “thought reform” and they respond to any negative discussions about their cult movement as bullies and hypocrites using the cult tactic of milieu control. We have seen it here in full bloom.
So we are dealing with bullies who claim Christ and misrepresent His teaching AND His character. I will take a beating from an unbeliever but not from one who claims Christ who attempts milieu control as is one of their cult tactics to prop up their guru.. But it is certainly amusing when women who have bought into the doctrine they are perpetually deceived come here to rebuke others. Why would anyone listen to perpetually deceived women?
I know from many years experience it is a waste of time to try and persuade the patriarchal bullies in what passes as Christendom. You may think that is “unchristian” of me and that is fine. I understand very well what I am dealing with as I saw their deceptive tactics back in 07-08 in the blogosphere to shut people up from discussing their experiences in that cult.
If that is “reviling” (not sure I agree with your definition since Jesus Christ called the “religious leaders” of His day, hypocrites) then so be it. How about some humor? I could repeat Paul and tell the men to emasculate themselves since they are so besotted with their phallocentristic brand of Christianity.
Julie Ann, be warned. These guys don’t play around. They do what they can to ruin people.. And for those of you who are not well versed in the tactics, do not email them. you do not want them having your ISP. I am that serious.
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Lydia, if you read in between the lines of Wilson’s post, he’s basically saying some here are unbelievers.
He’s not my judge.
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Think Scientology’s “Fair Game Law”, where literally anything goes to destroy an enemy of Scientology, real or imagined.
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Plus we’re getting too many Dougs in the room; I’m starting to have trouble figuring out which is which. They all blur together after a while into a generic grey Dougness.
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It’s the finale of the original The Prisoner!
“I! I! I!
I! I! I!
I! I! I!”
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“Why in the world would anyone want to be a Christian when the worst possible examples of Christianity are being defended by so many people? :
Because it is not Jesus’ fault, Eric. We all have free will contrary to much false teaching out there. Jesus is not forcing thugs and bullies to use His name for their personal gain. And He is not striking them with lightening or cancer, either. If you have read the OT, you will see the parallels with corrupt Israel. And they had a choice, too.
You would think in the land of self determinism with total religious freedom unlike say, 16th Century Geneva or even the Puritans later, more people would not be so willing to sell out to a guru. But they do. Their choice. And our choice to speak up.
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“Lydia, if you read in between the lines of Wilson’s post, he’s basically saying some here are unbelievers.”
JA, How many people do you know who have arranged a marriage for a convicted pedophile? The list is long of Wilson’s false teaching and very cultic behavior. He has no moral street cred. It is compliment he thinks you are an unbeliever. Celebrate.
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I’ve got a gallon of fresh-pressed apple cider from local organic Washington State apples. I think I’m going to pull it out tonight and celebrate, Lydia.
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Reviling is calling people names in order to turn people against them without refuting their arguments. Jesus and Paul took care to do that first.
Sure, it’s a cult. Since it is inspired by Satan’s malice against Woman as laid down by God in Genesis 3, you can expect its adherents to act like their father, as Jesus observed in John 8. Since Wisdom is female, their woman-hating must extend to rage against Lady Wisdom too, rendering them especially stupid. So it may be difficult sometimes, but it is essential, to apply Paul’s guidance in 1 Timothy 2:24-26, which parallels John 8:31-32. It does apply specifically to those that are following Satan and doing his will.
That doesn’t mean being euphemistic about it, and it certainly doesn’t mean trusting them. People aren’t trustworthy when following Satan, knowingly or not.
There are lots of ways in which Christians follow Satan, especially in the US today. In part it’s the immaturity of being blown around by every wind of doctrine spoken of in Ephesians 4. Some other obvious Satanic ideologies that ensnare Christians – identifiable by the lying, stealing, killing, and destroying that they promote – include Christian Zionism, American exceptionalism, and the doctrine of human sacrifice expressed in the notion that we are made free by the shed blood of American troops, when it’s pretty clear in the Bible that liberty is where the Spirit of the Lord is, and that only the blood of Jesus sets free.
Even those of us not ensnared in these particular ideologies either have been, or we know and love others that are, so we need to be merciful while uncompromising with the hideous destruction that they cause – because whoever we are, we have been deceived, hateful, and hating one another, and it was mercy that got us out of such lunacy. And it will be mercy that gets us out of such lunacy that we haven’t yet become aware of.
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Watch out, folks:
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Julie Anne at 10:47
Thank you for your grace and dignity in your ministry, for your perseverence in the face of being called an enemy of God for it. Luke 6:22-23.
Doug Wilson is right, and Doug Wilson is wrong.
Yes. Doug Wilson is right. Because Doug Phillips purports to be a Christian and a church leader, Doug Phillips has given the enemies of God cause to blaspheme, to scoff at His name, to reject the true gospel on the basis of one man’s fall from highly and undeservedly revered heights. Doug Phillips has given the world another reason to throw the baby out with the dirty, filthy, odious bathwater of sin and hypocrisy. A very sad situation indeed. I do not revile Doug Phillips. I do not snark at him. I wish him grace and forgiveness from those he has wronged. I wish that Doug Phillips did not bear the burden of causing anyone to turn away from God because of what Doug Phillips has done and said and perpuated in Jesus’ name. I hope that God in his grace will mitigate the effects of Doug Phillips’s sin.
Doug Wilson is also wrong.
From the fact that Doug Phillips has given the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme, it does not follow that anyone expressing “glee” or “snark” or “venting their spleen” is therefore identifiable as an enemy of God. For someone who claims to be such an expert at formal logic, Doug Wilson ought to know that.
To those of you wrinkling your nose now at the nauseating, sulfurous scent oozing from the pores of Doug Wilson’s blog post: trust your senses. That malodorous whiff you detect is the unbiblical, totolitarian lie that to question or attack the bona fides of an ostensible church leader, especially a patriarchal church leader, is to set yourself up as an enemy of God. You who are wise and experienced in testing the spirits, as we are commanded to do, will recognize where that lie comes from by the smell.
I don’t personally believe glee or snark or such responses to Doug Phillips are appropriate, but, logically, not all who snark are God’s enemies, and not all God’s enemies will snark. So, no, God’s enemies cannot be readily identified by their glee at Doug Phillips’s downfall, or vice-versa.
A similar, though not at all logically identical, leap of logic would be for me to say that God put enmity between the seed of the woman and the spawn of Satan. I could then say that it follows that anyone at enmity with women is actually a demon spawn of Satan. Ridiculous. Illogical. I could go further and illogically assert that Julie Anne is a woman, that Doug Wilson is clearly at enmity with her and that makes him personally … well, I think the real point is that Doug Wilson is just being snarky but not very logical. Which, honestly, he’s as entitled to do as the rest of us fallible human beings. Being snarky and wrong does not make Doug Wilson an enemy of God or the spawn of Satan. It just makes him snarky and wrong.
One final point: just as God’s enemies and snarkers are not necessarily one and the same thing, I’d like to add that snarking at Doug Phillips and blasphemy against God are not one and the same thing. Last time I checked, God’s name was not Doug Phillips. Maybe I’m using the wrong version of the Bible.
Or maybe it’s just that we women weren’t given the capacity for spotting illogic; after all, we’re so easily deceived by virtue of not having that extra brain patriarchal men have. You know the one. The one that conquers, penetrates, colonizes, and plants.
Yes, that last remark was snarky (though not directed at Doug Phillips) and wrong. I apologize. I’m fallible. So are Doug and Doug. But that doesn’t make me, or them, enemies of God.
I thank God for the good and wise and godly men and women in my life who have pointed the way to truth out of darkness. May we all do the same for those who stumble or turn from God on account of men like Doug Phillips. May we show them the way to grace. Many of us were them once. I very nearly was.
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Doctrines, such as woman-hating, may well be of the devil, and their adherents are certainly deceived. But as Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:24-26 and Jnot that way.”esus said in John 8:31-32, they are vitims and slaves of sin, not really our enemies. Good thing, too, since none of can afford to say to ourselves, “I thank you God that I’m
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Free at Last – – great comment!
I do not think I have expressed words of happiness or glee about this situation whatsoever. Maybe others have. But you have to look a little deeper than just the surface of the emotion at the heart intention. Is it being glee because someone is hurting? Or is it glee because now after years of bad teaching/doctrine, patriarchal nonsense, truth is being exposed? I’m thankful that truth has been exposed – – I think that is a positive expression that even Christ would go along with. But for Wilson to act as judge and say that those who strive for truth in Christianity are enemies of Christ is absurd.
But . . . I have another question . . . let’s say someone truly felt glee in their heart about Phillips’ news. Does that mean that they are an enemy of God or merely a sinner?
If you take that to the logical next step, aren’t we all enemies of God because we all are sinners?
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Julie Anne at 3:51.
Thank you for responding to my post. I appreciate your dignity and grace. I certainly do not think you personally have been snarky or inappropriately gleeful. It’s not even clear to me that Doug Wilson is accusing you, personally, of such a thing. Perhaps among the hundreds of reader comments are statements that Doug Wilson feels are inappropriately gleeful or snarky, in his almighty judgment. I doubt he appreciates mine, although I don’t expect him to read them. Why would he waste his precious superior neurons reading or responding to my remarks (or yours) when he can simply hand-wave them away as being the silly remarks of an inherently stupid woman? After all, in his view, we lack the intellect or capacity for spiritual discernment that God in his wisdom coded exclusively onto the y chromosome. Anything we say is inherently flawed; therefore, there is no reason to inspect it in the light of Scripture.
You ask:
But . . . I have another question . . . let’s say someone truly felt glee in their heart about Phillips’ news. Does that mean that they are an enemy of God or merely a sinner?
I don’t know that glee or snark is sin per se. I think each person will have to examine their heart in that respect. If it is a sin, it may be committed by God’s enemies or His friends. I personally feel glee, not at the suffering and wounds Doug Phillips has caused the church and the name of Christ, but at the fact that yes, God is still in the business of removing the blemishes from his Bride, this one most probably from her posterior. Yes, that was said in a snarky way. If I thought that was a sin, or if i thought it made me an enemy of God, I’d have stated it differently. Perhaps the reference to the hindside of the Bride of Christ will cost me some credibility. But the underlying sentiment– joy at truth being exposed– is nowhere in the Bible called a sin. On the contrary, we rejoice in the light.
You ask:
If you take that to the logical next step, aren’t we all enemies of God because we all are sinners?
Well, we are all sinners, and sinners are enemies of God. But the scripture also tells us that the redeemed are no longer enemies of God, we are his friends. My desire to honor God with truth and love, and not dishonor Him with sin, is what keeps my personal feelings in check here. If you knew what I’ve been through, you would know that I as much as anyone, in my own flesh, would have dark and sinful thoughts of inappropriate glee an hatred toward men like Doug Phillips. Because I am redeemed, because I am a friend of God, I can only feel sadness and compassion toward him.
But glee, oh me, i do do feel glad as I can be that the untrustworthiness of this man is now a matter of public knowledge. Someone else started this thread with the idea that the patriarchal pseudo-gospel is undermined by the fall of this one man. I believe it is. If men were perfect leaders, patriarchy might function marginally well. They aren’t, and it doesn’t. For proof of that, Doug Phillips is exhibit A of the moment. Perhaps some people will, as a result of that proof, discover the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That thought gives me glee.
Thanks for hearing my thoughts. They’re one woman’s opinion, and
worth no more than they are worth.
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“…but it is essential, to apply Paul’s guidance in 1 Timothy 2:24-26, which parallels John 8:31-32. It does apply specifically to those that are following Satan and doing his will.”
Peter, you make some very good points that mostly I agree with except I think you might chill about dealing with cultic bullies who claim Christ. :o)
If you back up to 1 Tim 1, Paul does something interesting. He talks about those who are deceived out of ignorance (he puts himself in this category) and those who deceive on purpose. The latter, he names names and warns, specifically with Hy and Al (but names names in other letters, too).
Note to patriarchalists: It is good to read 1 Tim with that theme as a foundation. When you take the historical context of 1st Century Ephesus and it’s fertility cult, the grammar, then that whole “saved in childbearing” thing makes total sense when combined with the theme of being deceived and the fact Paul does not name names with the “singular” woman in 1 Tim who is not to “authenteo” a man.
Peter, you are so right that Satan has a special hatred for women as she was to be the conduit for our Savior. It always makes me very sad that so many help the evil one in his work representing it as a Christian virtue. The question is: Who is deceived out of ignorance and who is deceiving on purpose?
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Julie Anne at 3:51:
P.S. If Doug Wilson wanted to direct his flock to an arguably snarky, gleeful response to Doug Phillips’s admitted infidelity, he would have directed his flock not to your site, but to http://crecmemes.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/depends-on-what-the-meaning-of-the-word-is-is/.
Now *that* is some funny stuff!
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“I’ve got a gallon of fresh-pressed apple cider from local organic Washington State apples. I think I’m going to pull it out tonight and celebrate, Lydia.
Surely you could liven that up a bit. How about some fresh ground French Roast? (hee hee…I am not a big drinker…maybe a glass of red wine or two every few months with a good steak)
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French Roast with the apple cider? 🙂
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I do believe that he is saved. Just b/c a person falls does not mean they are not saved. But if this ended up being a trend with him, that would put a big red flag of weather he was saved or not. If he came public about all this on his own doing, that is the Lord strongly dealing with him on this. If you are God’s child, he will correct you when you do wrong b/c He is a holy God. I believe this is God dealing with him. Just b/c David in the Bible messed up, does not mean that he was not God’s child. God dealt with him, forgave him, but did not take away the consequences of his actions. That is left there for us to learn from. Jesus did not come to die for perfect people, but for sinners. But He also came to give us grace. But on the other hand, it is clear that we are not to test God – for He will discipline His children.
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Hi Lydia,
By way of tithe and offering I advocate for special education kids mostly for free against school districts, and in California advocates can freely litigate in administrative proceedings. One thing I never really got from the Bible but have seen by studying cases and being before hearing officers is that judges avoid deciding if they don’t have to. If you don’t have to reach a question, you don’t get to screw it up.
That’s very helpful. People are quite complicated, so how far can you go without having to decide whether someone is sincerely deceived or intentionally deceiving? It’s often a weird mixture of both – as it is written, “deceiving and being deceived.” Avoiding dependence as much as we can on judgments in which we can get it wrong automatically forces us away from a lot of dumb mistakes and injustices. I think it’s what the Proverbs call prudence, and it is written, “I Wisdom dwell with prudence.”
The preposition is dia, so that by rights it’s really “saved through childbearing,” in the meaning of getting through a danger. Being the Seed of the Woman, Jesus did the real pregnancy and birth through the death on the cross through which he was himself the first-born. It was fitting that in Jesus God became man, but also man became woman, the wisdom of God – thus answering the two breaches in Genesis 3.
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Pastor Crippen and others helped me with this comparison to David and his affair with Bathsheba. You can tell a true Believer vs. a false one by the *pattern* of their behavior. David’s mistake was seriously out of character for him, since it appears that he followed the Lord closely for most of his life leading up to that. There was fruit that everyone could see.
Someone like DP, on the other hand, doesn’t have a pattern of good character or a good reputation to make this seem like a “Christian who slipped”. Instead we’ve all been treated to multiple stories from multiple victims of his, describing his evil deeds (and the evil behavior of his wife, too) — so why should he be given the benefit of the doubt and treated like a believer?
That’s right. He shouldn’t.
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Shirley: I always go back to this: show me the fruit. Is there consistent good fruit over the years? Is there someone lording their (perceived) position of authority over others? There are many, many stories of heavy-handedness over the years – – even filing lawsuits against Christians. Say what?! That is bully behavior.
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just to let you know, Doug stepped down as teaching elder of his church in February of this year.
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notsurprised: Thanks for that info. Do you have a source you can direct me to verify? The church still has him listed as one of two elders (I’m assuming that this is an elder-led congregation, not one sole pastor). http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/about/
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I can’t………..sorry, but it’s obvious things have been “brewing” for a while!
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Yes, indeed – between February and now is like a full-term pregnancy – 9 mos. That’s quite a while. That really is interesting, though, because if he stepped down from his teaching elder position, why did it take so long for him to step down from VF Ministries? And that still leaves the question open about the for-profit side of VF. (::::ja thinking out loud::::)
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Well Wilson is right, there are are some unbelievers here, I am…
I will say that I wouldn’t consider Doug fully repentant unless he resigned from ALL of his business… Resigning from the more religious side and still working on the profit side is highly intriguing and points to true motives to me, however, I imagine his wife is happier the less time he’s home.
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my thinking is that this is huge. He is a pretty prideful and arrogant. Thinking someone has something on him that is of earthquake magnitude because he wouldn’t go down easy…….I think he was forced to!
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We don’t have to decide whether someone is a believer, and as Julie Anne pointed out, if you’re saved “your life will surely show it.” For instance, Paul and Stephen both addressed their persecutors as brethren and fathers.
In fact David was in serious trouble, and Psalm 32 and 51 show that he was under a lot of pressure from God to soften him up for Nathan’s reproof. David seemed to think that he could take liberties because Uriah was a Hittite and he was king. With Araunah the Jebusite later on, it was clear that the lesson had been firmly driven into him.
It’s not only unclear that Phillips has repented. In fact, he remains obstinately committed to his false doctrine, and hence remains thoroughly deceived. He is characterizing the problem as a personal weakness rather than reflecting that it is the fruit of his arrogance and false doctrine. It’s like those Communists that said the systemic problem of mass murder was due to Stalin’s “cult of personality,” or Mao’s similar problems, never mind that these problems were clearly a feature of the system. After so many one-offs, they’re not one-offs anymore.
The same is true with apologists for similar crimes of the American empire. The American Indian genocide and land theft, 250 years of slavery and then white supremacy, hundreds of thousands murdered in the Philippine-American War, millions in Indochina, another million or so in Iraq plus blighting the land with radioactive dust – and even Christians explain it all away or call these exceptions.
Idolatrous ideologies, of whatever kind, are from Satan and destroy the earth and the people in it. As long as you’re concentrating on individual bad behaviors and refusing to see the trend in the lie that you’ve been in love with, you haven’t repented. You’ve tossed some cargo overboard to save the evil ship you still want to keep.
That’s why we don’t need any nonsense about forgiving the man. That’s not at issue here. Like Simon the magician, he remains in bondage to bitterness and iniquity, and it does neither him nor anyone else any favors to sign him off as anywhere near cured at this point.
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notsurprised,
Ok, my brain is going places. Think about it – – – if you are truly repentant, it stops being about you. You mean nothing. You are eating dirt and humble pie. Everything is hinged upon the relationships that you hurt and restoration of those relationships. This is love in action that shows humility, transparency, and honesty. If he stepped down from his pastoral position, then the next logical step would be to step down from ministry work – – ya know – – the kind of ministry work that tells men how to be godly fathers and husbands – – all of those speaking engagements.
If it is true that Phillips stepped down from his elder position in February, how could someone who is truly repentant back in February continue speaking engagements and do the same ministry work about all of this godly family/dad/patriarchy stuff?
It’s not adding up.
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Headless Unicorn october 31 at 8:02:
1. I am a lawyer, as is suggested by my ridiculously longwinded comments. You may be too, but I just wanted to second what you said. I don’t sign my name “Esq,” especially on documents where it is unnecessary for me to point out that I am a lawyer. It’s almost always unnecessary. Usually my J.D. and bar admission status are either irrelevant, already known by the reader, or apparent from the context. When it’s necessary for me to state that I am a lawyer, I still avoid “Esq.” As you said, it’s gauche. If necessary, I just write “counsel for” name of client after my name and then it’s apparent who I am and why the attorney bit is even relevant.
2. If a headless unicorn man is headless, how can we be sure it’s a headless unicorn man and not just a headless horse man? Wouldn’t a headless unicorn be as hornless as a headless horse? Nice nickname!
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yep……….it’s all one big puzzle that will be answered. But Doug will not go down lightly, let alone resign. I am pretty sure it is of a massive magnitude…….HUGE! (I do NOT know details so don’t ask)
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Think about it – – how can a Patriarch go down? It’s against their philosophy/theology/whatever-you-call-it.
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Oops, headless unicorn guy, just noticed that Southwestern Discomfort on October 31, 2013 at 4:32 PM Already seconded your comments about using “Esq.” unnecessarily. When we lawyers see other lawyers do that, we snicker and note to ourselves that the person arbitrarily using the designation probably isn’t much of a lawyer, or he’d know we’re not impressed. Yeah, wow, you have a J.D. So does a surplussage of other folks.
Accordingly, I third your observation. Or maybe I eight it.
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I am sworn to secrecy (some have outed themselves), but there are a number of attorneys who read here. I find that very interesting. At first I thought it was because they were interested in my case (and I think they were – I got quite a few asking me for court documents and 100% of them said my atty rocked it with the anti-SLAPP), but many stayed. I love it. Attorneys make me kick on the other side of my brain and seem to see things differently than me and I love reading their perspective. I’m very right-brained.
I’m glad you’re talking about the Esq. thing because I’ve always thought it seemed boastful and wondered what other attorneys thought about using it in their correspondence/signatures.
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Peter Attwood on November 1, 2013 at 12:10 PM
You state:
Shirley,
“I never heard of Philips before getting into this conversation. Outside of the universe of his victims, who seem to be well-represented here, he’s not a big deal.”
Personally, I have observed the VF’s influence, politically and spiritually, is very far-reaching, far beyond selling toys designed to reinforce patriarchal gender roles. Families influenced by VF and their kind, bless them, in turn influence their own churches throughout the country, especially where I live.
VF also has more than dipped its toe into political and policy issues, handing out man of the year awards to political figures, etc. Maybe they aren’t a big deal, but they are, indeed, more politically influential than initially meets the eye. I’d give specific examples, but I don’t want to blow my anonymity.
Like your blog, by the way.
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When I hear Esquire, I want to look around and see if he or she is holding someone’s horse.
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Julie Anne at 8:02
There are many reasons for lawyers especially to follow your blog. Thank you for being informative and brave.
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VF is definitely far reaching. In addition to Free at Last’s comment, VF is in the homeschool movement, courtship movement, the purity movement, the Christian film industry movement, the family integrated church movement. Phillips’ dad (Howard Phillips) was a prominent lawmaker. Phillips is an attorney. Phillips used to be an attorney for HSLDA – the Homeschool Legal Defense Association – rooted in Reconstructioniosm. If you have Reconstructionist connections, you are into politics. Oh, and how can we forget full-quiver? The full-quiver movement’s purpose is to take dominion (Dominionist movement) over the world and he even has a 200-yr plan listed on VF site.
And you are right, Free at Last – – – the way this movement spreads is quietly through churches. It’s interesting, you can sometimes see it with your church friends when you befriend them on FB. You can tell who are in it because of the posts they pass around.
This strong influence has caused all kinds of problems in churches.
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