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“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Matt. 5:3-4
Today I stumbled across a disturbing article at One Lost Child blog. Blogger Cathy raises concerns regarding the care women will receive at Freedom Home for Women under Dr. Jim Berg, Executive Director. The article can be found here: ***Original link was Run! You’ll Find Bondage At “Freedom Home!”: Please find the above link at the Wayback Machine here.***
The Freedom Home for Women is a facility using “Biblical counseling” in treating their clients.
Below is a brief 1-minute video about the counseling program at Freedom Home. While watching the video, think about abuse victims: it was not their sin that caused them to be abused. Abuser sinned against innocent victims. The premise of Biblical counseling is sin and addressing the personal sin in one’s life.
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Let’s take a closer look at the core of Biblical counseling:
A proper view of the psychology of Man acknowledges that humanity’s greatest ill is sin. The active sinful desires that emanate from the human heart serve always to move individuals away from God. The hostile, deceptive agenda of such desires promote destruction and corruption within the heart and life of Man. Biblical counsel points counselees to the Active Redeemer that they through Him might effectively confront and crucify the flesh. Romans 7:14-23, Galatians 5:19-21, Galatians 6:7-8, Ephesians 4:22-23 (Source)
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Here is another explanation of how Biblical counseling is used in dealing with behavioral problems:
Biblical counseling recognizes that man is responsible for his own behaviors and that guilt is “real” as a result of sin. It also recognizes that man’s problems result from him being a fallen sinner by choice and being drawn away by his own lusts. When man focuses on his own lusts (feelings) sin is conceived (James 1:13-14). The effects of sin causes problems in the man’s life. These problems then lead to bad feelings. The goal of Biblical counseling is to redirect the focus off of the “lust” (feelings) and onto “thinking” that reflects the mind of Christ.
Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-is-biblical-counseling/#ixzz2e4I0ck8t* * *
As we think of Biblical counseling with abuse victims, we need to consider first they had to survive the initial abuse – the sin done to them – many times keeping it secret for years. If they tried to speak out, many victims were shamed, not believed, minimized, etc. Then, as a result of this non-response, many turned to behaviors that numb the unbearable pain. They may have developed addictions to drugs/alcohol, eating disorders, mental health problems, depression, etc. The foundational issue that resulted in these bad behaviors was not their sin, but the sin inflicted on them by the abuser. This is so important.
In Cathy’s article, Run! You’ll Find Bondage At “Freedom Home!, she appropriately raises the alarm that care providers at A Freedom Home may not have the proper education, training, and/or credentials to treat such challenging cases such as PTSD, substance abuse, etc. She contacted them asking specific questions about the care women would receive:
While researching this calls were made asking about what medical care and medical professionals would be available to Freedom Home residents suffering from Anorexia, Bulimia, Depression, Suicidal thoughts, etc. As we spoke the point was made that going “cold-turkey” off alcohol, and addictive substances (Drugs) is not a joke. It’s frightening both to the person coming off addictive substances and to those witnessing it. Going off substances “cold-turkey” can cause medical and psychiatric emergencies and in some cases lead to death.
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Cathy, who has a nursing background, inquired with detailed questions to address some of the more challenging issues:
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I thought I wasn’t being clear. I mentioned specific types psychiatric and emotional problems they claim from their website they’re going to deal with at Freedom Home. To make myself clear to them, I even listed out specific needs that would be present in the various things they listed – such as PTSD, eating disorders, suicidal thoughts (by the way the correct term is Suicidal Ideation which can lead to Suicidal Acts.) etc. They said the residents would be forbidden *any* outside contact with medical or psychiatric professionals at least until after the first 6 months. They insisted that they believe that a Bible discipleship class is the ONLY thing necessary and that they have made the decision that outside resources will NOT be permitted. Clients will have to agree to that before coming and “will be denied access to outside professionals.”
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Obviously this facility is aware of the possibility of serious mental health challenges because take a look at just this small screenshot taken from their application form:
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I was diagnosed with PTSD after experiencing a 7.9 earthquake in the Philippines. I have yet to write that story, but briefly, I attempted Biblical counseling for several months to help with the flashbacks. All the praying, confessing, forgiving, having faith, reading Bible, reciting Bible verses, trusting God did not do a thing to get rid of the tormenting aftershocks which were eating away at my life. It wasn’t until I received professional help from a licensed Christian psychologist that I finally found relief. So reading this story alarmed me. I know that I could have died had I not received proper care.
Some people reading this will call me a heretic. I don’t care. All I know is that God provided the help I needed through a Christian psychologist and I’m alive today because of that help.
On the same blog article, I discovered a very disturbing comment from Pastor Al. I don’t know who Pastor Al is, but he has the same kind of mentality that I have seen with so many who claim the Biblical counseling has all the answers to all of life’s problems. Cathy gave me permission to copy his comment here. Be sure to note that he is addressing an abuse survivor, a victim of someone else’s sin. What do you observe in his response?
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Cathy,
I perceive you to be very bitter and you likely have not forgiven these people who you claimed “abused” you for their wrongs.As far as Jim Berg saying he couldn’t help you. He was correct. You can’t be helped as long as bitterness lurks in your soul. The best thing for you to do will be to forgive and move on. You won’t ever forget–God doesn’t command that; but you must forgive.
We don’t know each other, but I also suspect that you’re a very deeply troubled, hurting, and lonely person. Your anger level precludes the possibility of your having too many friends, because bitter, angry people are like wounded dogs who snarl and lash out at those who attempt to get close enough to help them.
Until you see yourself as a sinner in need of God’s live and grace, you will never be healed. Once you’ve found salvation in Christ, God’s grace will enable you to forgive everyone–even your those who “abused” you. The choice is yours–allow bitterness to define your life, or find and extend forgiveness through Christ.
I am praying for you.
Pastor Al
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
If you read Cathy’s story, her abuse started very young! I won’t go into all the details but what this woman has been through will sicken you. The fact that she is alive, working as a nurse, dealing with cancer, and still has not lost her faith in Christ is amazing!
Jim Berg’s years of “counseling” is part of the reason why GRACE was hired by Bob Jones University. My opinion is that they feel the GRACE report, when it is published, will vindicate them. I believe it will condemn them and Jim Berg’s behavior will be a large part of the condemnation. This so-called treatment center is much like the equally repugnant “girls’ homes” scattered throughout the country, supported by the IFB churches: unlicensed, unprofessional, abusive in ways both physical and emotional–all in the name of Christ. When the news gets out that this place is going to open, I pray the neighbors weigh in with county council and the zoning board. I know where this church is: the area is residential and used to have a school abutting onto the land. The neighbors will not be happy. After all, there is a reason why the local, church-supported men’s rescue mission lies in a more or less commercial area.
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Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh!! Can’t these people be stopped for practising without a licence? It’s like your minister trying to take out your appendix. Not qualified! I’m afraid someone is going to needlessly die.
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Nouthetic counseling is dangerous, in my mind, especially for individuals who have been abused. The vast majority of women who struggle with addiction have a history of interpersonal violence. And Biblical counseling just continues that violence. It seems to me that it is just a variant on patriarchy–making women feel responsible for all that is wrong with the world and especially responsible for any ill-treatment they may have received (or “perceived” they received) at the hands of another male. I feel so sorry for the women who are abused by this form of “counseling.”
Women who have suffered betrayal and abuse need trauma-informed care by licensed and specialized clinicians. Trauma-informed care recognizes the enduring effect of psychological and/or physical trauma. It seeks to help clients learn what triggers they may be experiencing, to understand what they can do to help themselves when they are triggered, and to begin to process the trauma in a gentle, compassionate way in a safe therapeutic setting. There is nothing safe about nouthetic counseling for such a client–nothing safe at all. It will just further traumatize her. And if she is prone to addiction, she will probably seek relief from the trauma by numbing with her preferred addiction (substance or behavioral).
The impact of Biblical counseling on a trauma victim’s spirituality is also huge. Trauma creates a very real sense of powerlessness. The rape victim is powerless to prevent the rape from happening. And yet, it is very common for the victim to blame herself–and society often blames her: she was wearing the wrong clothing or walking in the wrong area. Victim-blaming in rape cases reveals an incredible lack of knowledge about what rape is. It is not about sex; it is about exerting power and control over another. So the rape victim goes to see a Biblical counselor and is told that she must change herself in order to keep bad things from happening to her or to stop the lingering effects of her traumatic rape. How does that restore her sense of broken trust with God? How does that blaming-type “counsel” help her feel safe in this most important relationship?
This topic is a hot button for me. Can you tell?
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Brenda – it is a huge hot button for me, too. Thank God for my mother who basically forced me to get help with a licensed psychologist. I was emotionally dying. The issue with the biblical counseling – – – when it didn’t work for me, guess where the blame went? On me. I was the problem. I just didn’t pray hard enough. Didn’t trust God enough, didn’t have enough faith. I and others put this blame onto myself. So me, first as a victim of child abuse (which set me up for PTSD) and then a survivor of a horrific earthquake, then was re-victimized spiritually by all of that shaming talk from others who thought they were “helping” me. I also inflicted the guilt onto myself. It is by the grace of God that I am here – – that these words of mine are here tonight.
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Good post Julie Anne. Yes, so called “biblical counseling” (sometimes known as “nouthetic counseling” is very inappropriate for victims of abuse and trauma. We have a lot of post about that at A Cry For Justice.
https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/tag/biblical-counseling/
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Biblical Counseling: Is it EVER Safe? would be a better title. Given the Bible can be abused to prove almost any abusive thing, though selective and mis-use of the text, and deliberate mis-interpretation. And what is Biblical about any counseling, except if it is done in love for the counselee, in her best interest, etc. Taking away medical treatment for injury and addiction is criminal.
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That letter from a “pastor” shot the messenger and denied the abuse ever happened. What kind of counselor, let alone a pastor, does this? The judgmentalism and condemnation dripped from the first sentence and never let up. Blame the victim, deny the abuse, and cast doubt on the character of the reporter are all signs of an abuser, not a healer.
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“Blame the victim, deny the abuse, and cast doubt on the character of the reporter are all signs of an abuser, not a healer.”
Yes, and the unfortunate fact is that narcissistic and sociopathic/psychopathic personalities are way to often “called” (actually, drawn) to ministry. What better cover for evil than to be able to claim one is the very representative of God?
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Gary W:
Sadly there are two many control freaks in the ministry.
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Ok, not sure when people are going to start seeing the big picture here. The biblical counseling movement started with Dr. Jay Adams in 1970. Adams was inspired by the secular Psychiatrist O.H. Mowrer who was once president of the APA. Mowrer’s practical approach to helping people influenced Adams because it got results. Adams adopted the attitude; at the behest of Mowrer (Adams did an internship with Mowrer in 1966), that whatever practical therapy works in the world (practical anthropology) should be adopted and done better by Christians.
Adams is a Calvinist who interprets the Bible grammatically. Calvin did not interpret the Bible grammatically; he interpreted the Bible via Plato’s theory of forms and dressed it up in Bible verses. He got this from Augustine and Luther. They integrated Plato’s
epistemology with theology. The best contemporary example is Christocentric gospel contemplationism. Christ is the objective true form, and practical truths are the subjective shadows of the forms. Hence, Christ and His works must be contemplated; i.e., you must gain a deeper and deeper understanding of your own depravity which leads to a joyful appreciation of Christ’s atonement. This makes the person happy regardless of circumstances. They call this, “mortification (self death through contemplating your own depravity) and vivification (joyful rebirth). That’s why we “must preach the gospel to ourselves every day.”
At the same time that Adams was launching the biblical counseling movement with his controversial book, “Competent to Counsel,” A Seventh-Day Adventist theologian teamed up with two Anglicans and a Reformed Baptist minister to launch the Reformed “Australian Forum” project. It reintroduced authentic Calvinism to the American church. The theology was an affront to Adams’ counseling construct for the obvious aforementioned reasons. The rediscovered epistemology was adopted by Dr. John “Jack” Miller and dubbed “Sonship Theology” circa 1986. Adams wrote a treatise in opposition to Sonship in 1999.
Two of Miller’s mentorees, Tim Keller and David Powlison, packaged the theology in a biblical counseling construct and used it for CCEF’s fundamental counseling philosophy. Adams was instrumental in founding NANC, but in a period of about ten years, the authentic Calvinist construct dominated both organizations. Today, Christocentric gospel contemplationism dominates biblical counseling to the tune of 90%. Easily that.
JA was probably helped because she stumbled into someone in the 10% camp.
The attitude towards “abuse” comes from the aforementioned construct which thinks abuse is preordained by God to humble us and show us our worthlessness. Abuse aids in self death leading to vivification.
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That “pastor’s” comment made my blood boil. Especially the way he always used quotes around the word “abuse”. What, he thinks abuse doesn’t exist? That Cathy is equally to blame for whatever she’s suffered at the hands of others? Disgusting. Sickening attitude.
I haven’t been to Cathy’s blog yet, so I don’t know whether “Pastor Al” commented again. I’m hoping he was just some halfwit troll, and not a real pastor at all. I realize a troll’s words would be no less hurtful to Cathy, but if he is working as a pastor, I weep for his congregation, wherever it is.
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SKJ,
They acknowledge it exists, but it is a good thing. Here is a chart that they use to illustrate: http://pinterest.com/pin/397372367091457055/
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You shouldn’t be bitter that you were abused, God sent that to help you change. Not being thankful for that deprives you of rebirth experience.
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Paul, That sounds abusive as well. The very idea that God sent abuse to a person, especially a child, to bring about change, is an abusive statement in and of itself. And, I think, heretical.
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AA,
It is what it is; welcome to 90% of what constitutes biblical counseling right now.
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Where do you think the attitude comes from? People don’t get up one morning and decide to start thinking that way.
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“Where do you think the attitude comes from?”
I do not know, but it occurs to me that there is one that is identified as the accuser of the saints.
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When you go to a “biblical” counseling session in our day, it’s ALL going to boil down to the top line or the bottom line. ALL discussion will bounce back and forth between the 2: http://pinterest.com/pin/397372367091633017/
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“do not know, but it occurs to me that there is one that is identified as the accuser of the saints.”
Bingo
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Being interpreted….?
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Paul said:
Paul are those your thoughts or are you trying to explain the thoughts of “Biblical” counselors?
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Paul said:
That’s exactly what happened to me and it led me down the crazy cycle when my symptoms did not get better. And when you do what “they” tell you to do and it doesn’t work, you put the blame on yourself and that can lead to death if you are already at the depths.
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Does anyone know what on earth is going on with GRACE and Bob Jones?
Anyway, reading this makes my blood boil:
Sheesh! Trotting out the word “bitter” to describe a victim of abuse is immoral. Hello!!!! God hates this. If we do not have the ability to have real righteous anger at abuse, then something is wrong with us. Righteous anger is NOT A SIN.
He had best define “forgive” because I think he does not get it at all. Forgiveness is not reconciliation or fellowship. Forgiveness does not mean you don’t put the perverts and sadists in jail and throw away the key. Forgiveness does not mean you don’t go after them with the full force of the civil law. That is being kind to their future victims.
Forgiveness means you leave the vengeance to God. Vengeance is NOT the same as Justice, folks. So, you don’t plot to murder them, ok?
You know what the most competent counselor will tell a victim? That was evil what was done to you. You have every right to be angry. If you weren’t, I would be even more worried about you because you are ripe for more abuse UNLESS you are angry about the evil and injustice done to. (It is even worse when it is done in the Name of God). Now, lets focus on what to do with the anger. (Righteous Anger means you VALUE yourself as being made in the Image of God) The pervert, while made in the Image of God, too, decided to be like Satan.
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JA,
And it has.
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JA,
The thoughts of counselors.
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Lydia,
GRACE, like Peacemaker Ministries, is a damage control organization for New Calvinism. They got ABWE off the hook, and they will get Bob Jones off the hook. GRACE is founded on authentic Reformation soteriology. Their philosophy of mortification and vivification is that of the abusers themselves. Hiring GRACE is like hiring Colonel Sanders as an advocate for chickens.
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Julie Anne,
I think biblical counseling is fine, it’s just “biblical counseling” that we need to worry about. 😉
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Paul, I wondered about that one. Any ideas why GRACE came out so strongI on SGM?
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Jim Berg who teaches others how to counsel those who have been abused in a video series. Churches buy this series.
Here’s how one church advertised Jim Bergs video course,
“Bob Jones University offers the Biblical Counseling series to help pastors and Christian workers deal with the problems confronting Christians. Many feel unprepared and inadequate to deal with the problems of life that they face and that are faced by those to whom they minister. Consequently, the “cure of souls,” which used to be the domain of the pastor, has increasingly been delegated to “professional” counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists. BJU’s Biblical Counseling series consists of six video courses designed to help prepare the Christian worker to handle such problems as anger, depression, addiction, immorality, child abuse, and many more.”
I’ve watched Jim Berg’s Crisis Counseling video. He spends a lot of time, talking about how many he has counseled. The homes they came from–missionary homes, pastors homes, christian school teachers homes, even deacons homes (from his own church, Faith Baptist Church, Taylors, SC)–but he never once teaches these people how to walk through someone with reporting abuse to law enforcement. Not ONE time, while teaching this series does Berg ever mention reporting. NOT ONCE.
In this video Berg says that the number of people he counsels who have been victims of sexual abuse is almost overwhelming. Berg does say this is a SIN, and a SIN against your own flesh, when you do this to your daughter.
BJU is currently being investigated by GRACE. http://netgrace.org/investigation/bob-jones-university/ A large part of the investigation is honing in on Jim Berg. Berg was Dean of Students from 1982-May 2010.(He was promoted to being the head of the Bob Jones University Seminary where Berg now teaches Counseling.) Here’s a blog post written from a witnesses point of view as she went with her friend who had been sexually abused by her father. http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2011/11/16/we-need-to-step-up/
I can attest to the fact, Jim Berg actively discouraged me from reporting the crimes against me.
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Lydia,
Well, they also criticized ABWE. I think it’s a wink, wink kind of thing. GRACE did what they do: drag out the “investigation” till the issue goes away. In my book, that’s what they are paid to do–keep churches out of court. I can tell you for certain that’s what Peacemaker Ministries are paid to do. I have firsthand knowledge of that. They TOTALLY refuse to get involved unless things are headed to court.
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A lot of Christianese. Including the “Not Really Saved” Discernment(TM) card.
A lot of the “Concern, Concern, Compassion, Compassion, Compassion (TM)” voice and tone (which from my upbringing I associate with sociopaths/manipulators). All that’s missing is the condescending pat, pat, pat on your pretty little head.
A lot of “I Know Best, I Am Right, God Says So” Righteousness. Seems a bit full of himself and his Godliness.
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That explains all those Puritan journals full of Excessive Scrupulosity and OCD-level self-sin-sniffing. In my church, St Rose of Lima took “mortification” even further, into some seriously insane levels of self-destructiveness.
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Paul, I just have not seen what you have seen with GRACE and in observing Boz and his actions and how he speaks out against abuse.
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Accusing someone of being “bitter” is a common fundamentalist/cultist way to attack critics: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/08/preaching-on-bitterness/
They won’t recognize any criticism as legitimate, instead viewing all criticism as the result of “bitterness.” Fundamentalists view all their beliefs and ideas as simply “straight from the Bible,” so in their minds no criticism of them can be legitimate.
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No parent should send their kids off to these types of “homes.” Here are some more real-life horror stories concerning these:
http://www.jeriwho.net/tlohh.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/independent-fundamental-baptist-discipline-call-tough-love-abuse/story?id=13310172
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2011/08/expose-on-the-new-bethany-school-for-girls/
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For anyone who hasn’t seen it, here is a good introduction to the founder of the “Biblical counseling” movement: Jay Adams: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/02/intro-to-nouthetic-biblical-counseling-and-its-founder-dr-jay-e-adams/
I also like Nick Bulbeck’s comment:
“On a more general note, this whole pseudo-science is based on nothing more than a play on the English word “counseling”. The Greek word refers to on-the-job training for life, translated as “counsel” in the archaic English of the KJV. Back in those days, to “take counsel” did not mean to seek healing, but to seek information and advice. The modern English word, in nouthetic “counseling”, refers to therapy to recover from setbacks or worse.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/02/intro-to-nouthetic-biblical-counseling-and-its-founder-dr-jay-e-adams/#comment-95968
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Paul, ABWE fired GRACE before they could publish their report. The implication was that the final report from GRACE would be damning to ABWE. Boz goes into this in depth on the GRACE site.
Interviews were ongoing as late as August in the BJU case. Cathy and others who have been interviewed by GRACE have had nothing but praise for the way the group handled things. There was never any doubt that they were listened to, believed, and validated.
If you had said this about Ambassadors of Reconciliation (who dealt with SGM), I would have agreed with you. I agree with you for Peacemakers as well. Not GRACE.
Moreover, whatever brand of nouthetic counseling you’re talking about, if it had anything to do with Calvinism, Jim Berg would flatly refuse to use it. BJU is as Arminian a place as your can find, regardless of their prior claim to being “interdenominational”. I should know; I went there and have many friends who did, too. Calvinism is verboten–long-time faculty (particularly Bible faculty) who professed adherence to TULIP have been summarily fired. BJU’s brand of nouthetic counseling is something all their own and just as dangerous.
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More on Jim Berg: http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?s=Jim+Berg
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The Party Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrade.
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tiquatue – Thanks for reminding me of this. You are right. ABWE did fire GRACE first and I remember reading about the frustration GRACE/Boz experienced.
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So, Paul, in light of what others have said to verify G.R.A.C.E. with Boz at the helm, do you still have some doubts?? Or are you good with what these others have affirmed?
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I I had the honor of interviewing with members of the G.R.A.C.E. Team as part of its independent investigation into Bob Jones University. Those members of the G.R.A.C.E. Team who present for my interview with were nothing but professional, kind, understanding and affirming.
I’m rather hard to impress and possess a finely honed BS detector. Far too many Christians leaders in the past have tried to convince me they cared but I saw right through their insincerity wrapped in saccharine as they minimized or completely ignored my accounts. These pastors and leaders did these things all the while claiming they cared for me while they denied my pain and experiences dismissing them away.
At no time did any of the members of the G.R.A.C.E Team appear to me to attempt to dismiss the accounts I related of my torture, rape, child-trafficking and physical abuse I have experienced. I struggle to find the adequate words to express my gratitude to each and every one of members of the GRACE investigative Team.
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ABWE’s firing of GRACE: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/02/baptists-terminate-investigation-of.html
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As far as Bob Jones University-types such as Jim Berg, Berg takes Nouthetic Counseling to a place that even most of those who practice Nouthetic Counseling won’t go.
For example: Not only is their refusal to follow the most basic medical principles puzzling, Berg’s reliance on his own brand of Christianity also raises cause for concern. In attributing everything to sin and only sin, they espouse a set of doctrines that essentially say we can “correct ourselves” to some sort of quasi- sinless perfection. (I write “quasi” because Berg expects perfection from everyone else…but none DARE question him!)
Through enough adherence to his rules and his “discipleship programs”, the women at Freedom Home can overcome all their ills, even if they are legitimate physical and psychological issues. The base heresy in this teaching is that we can once again become “Garden of Eden” people. The Bible I read says that doesn’t happen until we meet God face to face and our redemption is complete. No, his theology is pretty messed up and it puts everything on the works of the patients. In addition to that being dangerous, it effectively denies the fact that Satan is active in causing harm and leveraging all these issues (such as PTSD, clinical depression, etc) to break us down. Instead, Freedom House and Berg would pit these ladies AGAINST God – you know, the God who promised to be a Father. Frankly, that’s all just twisted and sick.
If you visit the post about this on my blog, at the end of my post, you will find a video of Berg espousing this heresy. I took the time to write the transcript of this malignant narcissist who likes nothing more than the sound of his own voice if you don’t want to watch and listen to whole video. http://lostchildnowfound.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/run-youll-find-bondage-at-freedom/ You can thank me by sending donations to my therapy fund. 🙂
(FTR: I loathe ALL Nouthetic Counseling)
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I have always wondered how this works. An organization HIRES another organization to investigate abuse? You gotta wonder how often that actually works out to the benefit of those abused.
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Barb,
NO! And let me clarify that further, NO, NO, NO, NO! I don’t give a rat’s behind what Boz T. says, he shares the same ideology of John Calvin/Luther on the interpretation of reality. BT is a Gnostic bonehead just like the whole lot of them. It’s the IDEOLOGY that matters.
When are people going to start getting this? The Puritans disagreed with each other and ridiculed each other, SO WHAT? John Owen disagreed with the Reformers for beheading “heretics,” SO WHAT? Does that make John Owen a good guy regardless of the fact that he was of their doctrine/ideology? For crying out loud, not all members of the Nazi Party agreed with murdering Jews—should they now be our freaking heroes?!!!!!!!
QUESTION: Why did my relationship with the MK’s get strained because I called GRACE into question day one because of their ideology? Just sayin’ I predicted the outcome day two. How? Because I know that they have the same ideology as the abusers–that’s why. The abused will not be helped by the same ideology that has disagreement on some of the outcomes. Why not a Nazi counseling center for Jews? Anyone know where one of those is? It’s the same stinking reasoning!
AND, the handling of the “investigation” by GRACE was horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible. THE MK’S HAD ALREADY COMPILED ALL OF THE DOCUMENTATION!!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL WAS THERE TO INVESTIGATE???????????
This is indicative of the steroidal arrogance of GRACE–they could do it better than the MKs. Even though it was their work that brought it all to light after 10 (TEN) years of “patient grace” with the ABWE thugs, GRACE had to “do it right.” GAG!
Let me go on record right now: GRACE deliberately prolonged the investigation to save ABWE. Like all Calvinists, they believe salvation is found in the institution; the goal is to “cut out the cancer without killing the patient.” Hello, how many times did we here that it would’t be fair to the other “good” missionaries of ABWE if ABWE was destroyed? The overriding “good works” of ABWE was constantly compared to the “unfortunate” MK scandal. Compare all of this nonsense to what happened in a little published abuse scandal at a well-known megachurch. The victim was praised for coming forward, and the perpetrator was unmercifully hung-out to dry by the church. Why didn’t they need GRACE?
If the approach to abuse in the church is open, just, and no nonsense, organizations like GRACE and PM are not needed.
Paramount among New Calvinist abusers and their ideology is none other than Tullian Tchividjian, Boz’s brother! Good grief! Boz T. has NEVER disavowed his brother’s doctrine nor the abuse that Tullian has inflected on former members of Coral Ridge which was a classic, New Calvinist textbook hostile takeover. TT brought the daughter of D. James Kennedy up on bogus church discipline in the process. Tullian is a serial abuser of anyone who disagrees with him. How this does not shed a suspicious light on Boz is utterly beyond me.
Boz is a fraud. And I pray that I will one day have the opportunity to tell him to his face accordingly. A solution for abuse in the church via BT is like finding a cure for a medical problem in Dr. korvorkian.
So what is the solution? Spiritual Abuse discernment organizations need to focus on practical solutions. They need to begin networking with secular authorities. They need to get rid of GRACE and go to the P-O-L-I-C-E.
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paulspassingthoughts:
I’ve attended a GRACE seminar in my area about a year and a half before anyone believed BJU would ever let *anyone* look into their dirt.
I went in very skeptical. I didn’t tell anyone my name. I listened to Boz speak. I have watched his organization very carefully since that time. Trust is not easy to get from me. It takes a lot of *earning* that trust.
Boz nor his GRACE Team are *not* a frauds.
A few facts:
GRACE *does* help victims report to Law Enforcement. There are quite a few perps sitting in jail from its former investigations.
I know of quite a few BJU-related victims who were *personally* accompanied to local, state or federal law enforcement (where the reports were made depends on the crimes and where the justification falls) by a prosecutor on the GRACE Team.
Unfortunately, there are far too many who are past the SOL to see justice. Calling the police won’t help those types of victims. GRACE is all they have.
GRACE and Boz do a heck of a lot behind the scenes that no one but victims and GRACE know of unless the *victim* decides to make this information public. They’re true professionals with specialties in law to adult and child psychology to its investigators.
I *know!* I had a conference call with GRACE a few weeks ago, because a BJU faculty brat was running her mouth and claiming GRACE said things. But because of having my confidentiality breached so horrendously in the past,–to put it mildly, it freaked.me.out! They were patient, didn’t jump down my throat for panicking and “doubting them” when they’ve done so much for me. They not only assured me that.did.not.happen, but explained they don’t talk to other victims or *anyone* (save the necessary law enforcement as needed) about things their witnesses divulge. It became very clear, It came from her evil little mind by way of Jim Berg. Any info she was claiming she “knew” didn’t come from GRACE because she didn’t *know* any of the details of my case that I hadn’t divulged in counseling to Jim Berg.
No one knows all I told GRACE except myself and those Team members present at my interview. What people “know” from others and my blog doesn’t even cover 1/8th of what really happened.
lydiasellerofpurple
” An organization HIRES another organization to investigate abuse? You gotta wonder how often that actually works out to the benefit of those abused.”
It often works out quite well actually. The independent report by Louis Freeh and his law firm, Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan, LLP, into the facts and circumstances of the actions of The Pennsylvania State University surrounding the child abuse committed by a former employee, Gerald A. Sandusky, is available below, along with a statement by Mr. Freeh. http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/Louis-Freeh-Report-on-Penn-State-ERRATA-SHEET.pdf
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…so, what is the answer.
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Ric,
Listen to the survivors that were interviewed by GRACE. It seems that most ABWE victims overall were satisfied with GRACE, but not with ABWE’s decision to fire GRACE. http://bangladeshmksspeak.wordpress.com/timeline/
The ABWE investigation took 18 months.
For me, it stinks to high heaven the fact that AWBE waited until the investigation was completed and the report was to be delivered to fire GRACE.
Let GRACE complete its investigation into BJU. I can’t divulge anymore information about my case at this time at a risk of damaging any criminal investigation in addition to GRACE.
You won’t find GRACE/Boz tooting their own horn on the backs of the survivors it has helped in the past and is currently helping.
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“It often works out quite well actually. The independent report by Louis Freeh and his law firm, Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan, LLP, into the facts and circumstances of the actions of The Pennsylvania State Utiversity surrounding the child abuse committed by a former employee, Gerald A. Sandusky, is available below, along with a statement by Mr. Freeh. http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/Louis-Freeh-Report-on-Penn-State-ERRATA-SHEET.pdf
First of all, let me say I am so glad you were helped and feel safe with those investigating. But it still begs the question:
Apples and Oranges. Why does a “Christian” organization need this sort of investigation by a third party “Christian” organization. It boggles my mind. What exactly does “Christian” mean anymore?
Why can’t they turn over all accusations to the civil authorities or get a lawyer for a class action? There IS a reason. What is it? To preserve as much of their organization as possible? To keep it out of media spotlight as much as possible? I don’t get it.
We already know that Peacemakers and Ambassadors of Reconciliation are corrupt. I think it is healthy to ask questions. And if those abused had already done the leg work, why call in GRACE?
Look, my bottom line is that those abused get full justice. And sometimes that means an organization where it occurred in mass needs to cease to exist. But too often, the organization becomes the focus as in “saving” it.
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‘…so, what is the answer.”
Warn people how dangerous “Christian” organizations/institutions really are and how they often evolve into corruption. History is a great teacher.. And yes, most of them are corrupt. Christianity was never meant to be “institutionalized”. It is about relationships.
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Paul –
Tony Miano certainly could not call you a womanly man with those fighting words. So now you get to deal with me, a manly woman (according to him and his ilk) – hahaha! Have you ever spoken /communicated this stuff with Boz? Do you even know the man?
It almost sounds like I hear you saying that one cannot be a Calvinist/Reformed and be helping abused. Is that right?
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Lost/found child,
Huh? Why was GRACE controlled by what ABWE did? Why has GRACE not sought to make their catastrophic failure in the ABWE case right? This is proof that the MKs never had formal representation. GRACE is an organization endowed with a ton of power and money–why are they not representing the MKs pro bono?
Because the victims don’t have the money–the churches do. Because like Calvin–they believe salvation is in the institution and it must be saved at all cost.
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JA,
YES. You assess my contention correctly, ABSOLUTELY, those who claim to be Calvinists but don’t really know what he believed withstanding. And that’s not Boz. No, I have never talked with Boz, but his theology is no secret. I guess I am going to have to dig up my research on this.
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What does GRACE do with the information they have gathered if they are fired? Has anyone ever seen the contract they sign with organizations?
I am just asking questions. I am always nervous and questioning when it is the organization that has the money to hire the third party but the victims are broke. I am wondering what the point of it is?
I go back to this: We do not have discussions with evil. We deal with it.
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Ric,
In addition to what Lydia said: Biblical application of practical truth. Many churches have dealt these situations to the point where the media wasn’t even interested in reporting on it–what does that tell you?
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Sounds like the MK’s would have done better to hire a secular agnostic lawyer for a class action suit or something. But so many have been brainwashed that is a sin when in reality the abuse is the real evil and it should be dealt with justly.
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“In addition to what Lydia said: Biblical application of practical truth. Many churches have dealt these situations to the point where the media wasn’t even interested in reporting on it–what does that tell you?”
Boy is that ever true. If it were not for social media we would not know the depths of corruption in what calls itself Christendom.
I can only say from my experience that I used to be glad the media was not interested in the corruption or abuse that went on in seeker megas. They yawned when stuff was brought to their attention then looked to see if any of the players were advertisers.
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I just want to go on record specifically in regard to JA’s question: Yes, authentic Reformed theology and helping victims is COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE.
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….Luther and Calvin both utterly rejected the concept of justice, calling it outright evil for man’s glory.
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….so did the Puritans, but yet all of these guys think the Puritans are just wonderful. Really, I’m I here right now?
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“It almost sounds like I hear you saying that one cannot be a Calvinist/Reformed and be helping abused. Is that right?”
I think there are many Calvinists who really are greatly compassionate. I know some of them personally. It is a sort of cognitive dissonance they live in that God preplanned everything that happens and yet believe at the same time it was a bad thing that happened. I cannot reconcile it. But I do believe they tend to put things in compartments they do not allow to overlap.
What bothers me the most is what this doctrine says to the abused. You are of less value to God. He preplanned it for you somehow for His Glory.
I have NO idea if Boz believes the same as Tullian and would not paint him with the same brush. I do know that Tullian is one of the worst when it comes to doctrine. He even freaks out some Calvinists! Tullian actually glamorizes sin and makes it pious. Read his stuff.
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Well, there you have it folks. Said by the manly man, Paul Dohse:
I just want to go on record specifically in regard to JA’s question: Yes, authentic Reformed theology and helping victims is COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE.
I completely get what you are saying and why you say it, Paul. It just sounds like you say there can be no good done with someone who is Reformed. I strongly disagree with that when looking at what A Cry for Justice blog has done for domestic violence survivors. I just can’t go that far and you know there is a disconnect w/me and Calvinism as we have spoken about (and the recent blog post about my childhood abuse attests).
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I think there are many Calvinists who really are greatly compassionate. I know some of them personally. It is a sort of cognitive dissonance they live in that God preplanned everything that happens and yet believe at the same time it was a bad thing that happened. I cannot reconcile it. But I do believe they tend to put things in compartments they do not allow to overlap.
Yes, that is a logical explanation. Just as I mentioned Crippen and there are so many others. Some of these folks don’t have a mean bone in their bodies.
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http://wp.me/pmd7S-10p
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http://wp.me/pmd7S-10T
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JA, In all fairness, Jeff Crippen came over to TWWthe a while back and implied that dispensationalism was the cause of abuse. I was frankly shocked that no one took him on. But no one did and I think it’s because he helps the abused.
In a way we set up a false dilemma. If they help the abused it does not matter what they teach that actually hurt the NBA
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Oops. …..hurt the abused.
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There are Nazis that don’t have a mean bone in their body. That doesn’t mean that we look to them for help–they are confused. Based on this reasoning, go to NANC/CCEF counseling because there is truth in the upper trajectory of the Cross Chart and the lower trajectory of the Cross Chart. There is some truth there–just no help.
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The Cross Chart: http://pinterest.com/pin/397372367091633017/
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One way Reformed theology “helps” victims is to teach them the goal of said theology: to detach themselves emotionally from this life. Ya, do that.
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But yet we wonder why the Reformed church is so indifferent to abuse.
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If I may, please bear with me:
lostchildnowfound – thank you
lydia – still begs the question; can’t send those in need to the history books to figure it out somehow.
paulspassingthoughts – I don’t know what anything tells me, really. still leaves a lot to wonder about, but no answers.
I’m hearing in this thread: the church can’t help. those who believe in the doctrines of grace can’t help, especially. Institutions that are “Christ centered” (note, I’m not saying they aren’t), can’t help. Christians can’t help (as there are those here who don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah, or God – not ust those writing). The Bible can’t help.
Do I have to go to Benny Hinn? Or spend hours idling on TBN (from what I’ve observed, mostly non-calvinist hyper-charismatic armenianists for the most part); A good armenianists over a Calvinist to get help – any day?
Or, go to a name-it and claim-it person? Or someone who doesn’t believe the Bible is God-breathed?
Am I missing something? I’m certain I am, we see through a glass darkly. But to get help, my word, we seem to identify all the problems (and many are rightly identified), but where are the objective tangible solutions when everything is wrong?
footnote: i’ve observed what i think are more moderate responses like JA’s (and I’m not trying to be a critic here, just trying to capture my thoughts), My comments are an attempt to reflect my overall concern with this thread and the innate ability for folks to identify the problem (with very wide brushes insulting many – as well as myself), but render no real objective solutions for those in need. When my friend’s daughter is cutting herself, from what I gather here, her only HELPFUL path is to an unbelieving doctor of psychology or psychiatry, who knows better because he’s not influenced by the Agustinian Platonian Lutheraninian, Biblicalinian ways of looking at brokenness and healing-inian (the last line for a bit of levity). Another friend of mine works at a behaviorial center, where the those who fail to get help from these non-christian psychologists or psychiatrists go and get locked up and drugged until their behaviors set them free. He has a very interesting take on these maters I’m certain most here would begrudge – btw, this is not meant to be a “proof” statement; these kid’s issues are very broad.
paulspassingthoughts – “nazis”? really? good grief. and I guess you know the right way sense it seems you have condemned all those who believe in reformed doctrines (maybe I misunderstood your comment – please let me know if I did).
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sadly, the net is much wider than thought. not limited to sects and denominations.
http://tinyurl.com/l5vhxc2
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Ric,
No, the biblical counseling movement begun by Adams helped people in large numbers and abundantly. Regardless of what some have said here, I was there, was involved in the movement, and have studied it extensively. The movement came under attack and was neutralized by the New Calvinist movement. The answer is for the church to return to aggressive sanctification with the Bible as the sole authority–not men., That’s the answer.
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paulspassingthoughts:
GRACE hasn’t closed its ABWE investigation.
ABWE is NOT Calvanist. Its Baptist (General Association of Regular Baptist Churches)
I’ve met these GRACE people. Boz is Presbyterian. That doesn’t mean everyone who works for him is Presbyterian or Calvanist. One member of the GRACE board isn’t even a self-identifying Christian.
I never had the investigators ask me *one* question about my current faith, because its not relevant to the investigation.
You sir, need to get your facts straight.
I
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Lost.C.N.F,
Look, I am not here to win an argument–don’t need to, I called the ABWE outcome the first day GRACE was involved, and that’s in writing, and dated. I will also call the BJU thing–it’s going nowhere but in Boz’s wallet. Of course GRACE hasn’t closed the ABWE investigation–they never close anything!
I think your distinction between Calvinism and Presbyterianism speaks to your own handle on the “facts,” and your unawareness that New Calvinism completely owns ABWE and the GARB conference. The last president of CU, and the present one are hardcore New Calvinists.
Been fun, but I have to get on with my day. I have said enough. When these issues have been your primary focus since 2007, and your job since 2009, you simply don’t need to argue about it.
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Ric, why are there so many spiritual abuse blogs? Perhaps you can tell us who can help? And give me clear examples of Christian institutions you have really helped and made a difference. I for one would be cheered to hear about it. Because most of what we are hearing the abuse is coming out of the institutions. I think it is perfectly acceptable to ask why one Christian institutions needs another Christian institutions to investigate it
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lydia – i guess you missed my sincerity. i don’t know, that’s why I’ve asked.
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…to add to my earlier comment, when I discussed “unbelieving doctors”, I do not mean in any way that they are automatically excluded from the category of being potentially helpful. That would be absurd (though it sounds like some churches do just that). I don’t think that just because a psychologist is an unbeliever they can’t help with psychological issues any less than a dentist can help fix one’s teeth. I would also submit, though, that there are plenty of instances where doctors have abused their patients and are now residing in jail. There is no sure-fire solution.
Contemplating my comments, and some reaction to them, I’m puzzled. It seems to me that the matters discussed on this thread, are not merely due to doctrine, but because more due to a lack of love (agape). People using doctrines of grace (as discussed in this thread) to enslave others legalistically, or otherwise (many issues, I’ve just rendered one). Paul does a fair expose when he declares that even if we give everything away, and do everything we think is right, and understand all things correctly (doctrine), and we have not love, we are nothing. Right! Note that those things just listed are from folks with seemingly good motives, who don’t have love. What about those folks with impure motives, who do not love? Whoa! The same, but much worse.
Disclaimer: I don’t believe my comments end any discussion. Hopefully, they add to it and build toward more helpful discourse (not debate). I don’t believe these matters shouldn’t be discussed, but do think practical, tangible solutions are helpful. Seems very easy to cherry-pick problem areas and dissect how those are bad or indifferent, or worse, abusive (and there are plenty – unfortunately). It’s even easier when we use a very broad brush and just accuse everyone, e.g. “all reformed” people. When that’s done, without a solution, readers have no way to digest completely what was just expressed, but merely gaining the understanding that there is NO solution. When there is no solution, there is no hope. When there is no hope, well, you know.
I’m thankful that folks find places of refuge and help on blogs. It’s a community of sorts, one that bridges the miles and topics. I’ve been on these type forms for nearly 20 years, I definitely can see the good in them. I’ve found when folks can help provide solutions to the things discussed, they are even more helpful. Not everyone will have the ideas, especially the hurting, maybe, but at least some will, hopefully. This is my hope for these outlets of information and centers of discourse. This is truly an amazing medium.
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I told my story over at Wartburg Watch blog about this, but I’m not sure how many readers here are familiar with that blog, so I’m sorry if this is a repeat for anyone here, but I used to suffer from depression. I may still a little bit, but compared to how severe it was in the past, it seems like nothing now. I also had severe anxiety, and now it’s more at a low level.
The Christian faith did not help me with my mental health problems. What did help me, finally: reading books about a particular topic by Non-Christian and Christian authors (therapists and psychiatrists) released me from a lot of mental problems I had struggled with for decades (and they weren’t even books on depression per se).
I was diagnosed at a young age by psychiatrists with clinical depression. Depression runs in both sides of my family.
I accepted Christ as my savior before the age of ten and always took the Christian faith seriously. I used to pray and ask God to heal me of depression. I read my Bible, I prayed. I did everything most Christians say you are supposed to do to rid myself of the depression, but none of that worked.
I kept seeing MHPs (mental health professionals) and even took various types of anti depressant medications for many years, but none of that worked. (I am not putting medications down, however. They do work for some people, just not for me.)
There were times I stopped seeing MHPs and stopped taking medication because I felt using either one was a lack of faith in God, and to be a good Christian, I should rely on faith alone, prayer, Bible reading, etc, to cope.
There are so many false teachings about mental health problems among Christians, as well as awful stereotypes against Christians who suffer from them. I ran in to so much of it growing up trying to find a solution from it, while listening to, or watching, preachers on television, reading Christian books, and reading Christian sites and blogs.
There are some Christians who deny that any Christian can and will get depressed (or suffer from other types of mental health problems). You can find their sites – they are usually “biblical discernment ministries,” and they usually assume any and all types of psychology is evil, worldly, to be avoided by Christians. (They think it is impossible for any true born again believer to have depression, bipolar disorder, whatever. They think true Christians only have constant inner peace and joy.)
It makes me angry how so many Christians admit that Christians can get physical health problems, such as heart disease, cancer, broken legs, etc, and do not hold it against a Christian for seeing a medical doctor for getting a cast, chemotherapy, taking aspirin, etc, but then they forbid Christians from seeing a psychiatrist or therapist.
It’s very easy to insist on some form of “biblical purity” and that people should rely only on “prayer alone” for depression, when you are not the one afflicted with said depression (or whatever your issue is).
Depression (and many other mental health problems) is not usually caused by personal sin, bad choices, character defect, spiritual problems, slacking off in the Christian life, etc. Those are all the usual, very insulting assumptions proponents of “biblical counseling” or other types of Christians make.
And note those assumptions are almost always made by Christians who themselves have never actually had depression or anxiety, or other types of problems like those.
Not only are biblical counselor (sometimes called ‘nouthetic’ counselor) types harmful, but so are the discernment ministries who view any and all psychology / psychiatry as being worldly or wrong, and some “Health and Wealth” (Prosperity Gospel, Word of Faith) Christians who teach if you have any sort of problem in life (sickness, death, injury, divorce, job loss, what have you), it’s because you sinned, or you lacked faith, or you didn’t pray long or hard enough.
Those Word of Faith guys can be very insensitive towards Christians who have mental health problems, too.
Twelve Step Programs, such as AA (Alcoholics Anonymous), are also guilty of these things. It’s fine to teach people to be personally responsible for their choices, but 12 step programs go hyper-drive with the concept of personal accountability to the point that they wind up blaming the hurting for their problems, even if the hurting person is not to blame but was sinned against by someone else.
Bible reading, prayer, and faith did not help me with my anxiety, depression, and low self esteem.
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About Pastor Al’s comment in the quoted OP.
IMHO, there is a bit of truth in some of the stuff he was saying. I don’t think it’s wrong to point out to people that if they don’t make a choice to forgive, that staying bitter, holding on to anger, can damage the victim, but, I think you need to be darn careful when and how you present this information to a hurting person.
After my mother died, and I was either ignored by most Christians I knew at that time (even after I went to them and told them I needed their support, but they still blew me off), or the other Christians I went to, who gave me platitudes or criticism, I had to fight the bitterness and anger.
I still do. I recognized that dwelling on all that stuff and staying angry would hurt me, though, not those people who let me down.
My sister (who already had a long history of being a very angry person) chose to stay bitter for a few years after our mother passed, and lord mercy, being around her was very difficult. Phone calls from her at that time, which could last for hours on end, were absolutely draining and depressing (she would call to vent and yell, sometimes she would take her anger out at me, insulting me, etc, and I thought I was being nice by sitting there quietly for hours letting her vent).
I’ve met people online who are still in deep misery because someone 20 years ago hurt them in some way.
So, I can see that there is a danger for a person who was hurt who refuses to move on, to let go of the hurt/anger, and/or who lashes out at innocent people around them to deal with the anger. I’ve seen it in people I know personally, or people I’ve chatted with online.
But I think Christians ought to be very careful how they present this sort of thinking, and I don’t know how well Pastor Al knows poster Cathy for him to be saying that stuff to her.
His last paragraph is probably the one I disagree with the most strongly, as he is talking to her as though she is a Non- Christian. A person can be a born again believe in Jesus Christ but still suffer abuse from other people and feel hurt or angered by it.
Forgiveness is a process. One other thing that bothers me by much Christian thinking on these sorts of topics is that the Christians who act rather judgmental towards hurting Christians act as though forgiveness and letting go is a one time deal, done in an instant, at the moment of choice.
For most people, it’s an on-going ordeal. I still sometimes feel angry when I think back to how some people treated me after Mom’s death (and it’s been a few years now), and I have to forgive them all over again.
Forgiving other people, moving forward, etc, are processes that take time, months or even years, but some biblical counselors act like it’s a one time thing you should be able to master in five seconds and be done with it.
Some everyday Christians are the same way. You tell them you are hurting because “X” happened to you, and they will quote some Bible verse about love, forgiveness, or whatever, at you, as though hearing that verse will instantly lift the hurt and anger.
Anyway, I see a few kernels in truth in what Pastor Al was trying to say, but I don’t think he handled it the right way.
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Paul summarized biblical counseling views as,
Hence, Christ and His works must be contemplated; i.e., you must gain a deeper and deeper understanding of your own depravity which leads to a joyful appreciation of Christ’s atonement. This makes the person happy regardless of circumstances. They call this, “mortification (self death through contemplating your own depravity) and vivification (joyful rebirth).
Oh brother. 🙄 That’s preaching to the choir.
Telling someone who sincerely trusted in Jesus as Savior at some stage that they need to remember they’re a sinner and Christ is Savior is so pointless. They already know they are a forgiven sinner and Jesus died for their sins.
Dwelling on that stuff never helped me with my depression, grieving, and other things I’ve gone through in life. It doesn’t actually do anything to free the person from whatever problem they’re having.
Knowing you’re a forgiven sinner is “Christianity 101.” Telling people to dwell on the basics isn’t going to help most of them very much, not in my view.
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Daisy – Thanks for sharing your story here. I agree with you that Christians have made a mess with mental health and how they dismiss real mental health issues. I just don’t understand how they can put aside the idea that your brain can be sick or trauma can produce mental health issues, when all other parts of our body can be have symptoms when sick or traumatized.
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Thank you Daisy for sharing your experiences as well as the things that you learned along the way. Through some unfortunate ‘inherited’ combinations, you have had a difficult path to trod. You have had some experiences inside and outside of the church that have made you ‘older and wiser’ in these areas. Appreciate your taking the time to inform others and to exhort that there are better ways of dealing with mental health issues as well as other distressing issues.
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“lydia – i guess you missed my sincerity. i don’t know, that’s why I’ve asked.”
Sorry Ric!. Here we are both on a spiritual abuse blog asking the same questions.
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Lydia said:
I don’t understand this. Maybe I don’t understand dispensationalism and how it is the cause of abuse. Can you bring this down to kid level, please? Poor Paul. I’ve given him grief that I have a hard time understanding him some of the time because of his big words. Good grief, this one is 7 syllables – – -really? Why? I thought this stuff was supposed to be easy for a child to understand.
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Ric – – I could sense you have been sincere. I am troubled by this discussion, too. I understand where Paul is going with this, but again, I just don’t see the abuse coming from people like Boz/Crippen. I think you touched on something when you talked about love. That is the obvious sign right there. When there is no love, that is when abuse comes. With Boz and Jeff and oh, let’s not forget Craig, there is genuine love, I mean the love the oozes of compassion and God’s goodness. The kind of love that compels us to draw near to God and His love. Perhaps they haven’t bought into the whole funky Calvinism stuff? I just don’t know, but I cannot dismiss these dear friends as Nazis. Nope. Not going to go there.
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“I don’t understand this. Maybe I don’t understand dispensationalism and how it is the cause of abuse. Can you bring this down to kid level, please? Poor Paul. I’ve given him grief that I have a hard time understanding him some of the time because of his big words. Good grief, this one is 7 syllables – – -really? Why? I thought this stuff was supposed to be easy for a child to understand.”
JA –
One of ‘those words’ not in scripture that can cause untold grief 😦
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JA,
I am always reluctant to offer up explanations as I am sure there are Dispensationalists who will disagree! It seems I cannot get Calvinism right so I doubt I can get Dispensationalism right, either. :o)
It is basically another variation of understanding God. For example, Dispensationalists believe God relates to humans in different ways in the covenants which are called “dispensations”. They tend to interpret Revelations as “future” events. (as in Left Behind)
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The world in general never runs out of ways to blame and/or shame the victim, to pressure, harass, accuse or otherwise torment the victim…
If we are not to blame for the abuse itself, then surely we invited any and all aftereffects (I was told I “choose to suffer”), which in reality we never asked for but are forced to deal with as they surface, and to face if we want to heal. If we are innocent of that, then you’d better believe we’re not healing fast enough for someone, even though some of us will never completely heal (we’re “dwelling” on it, not “trusting God” enough, not “leaving the past in the past”). We may pass that test, but could still be bad actors/actresses, not expressing the right amount of super happy feelings on demand (“no one can steal your joy unless YOU LET THEM”). Any sign of anger means we are “full of deadly poison” and must be pushed to “forgive” (a word we are not allowed to define, believed to be the magical cure-all). And so on, and so on…
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Oasis, Here is the bottom line. If such evil does not give them righteous anger and grief for the victim then perhaps they don’t really know Christ? How could they? It is a red flag to avoid them at all costs.
Think of how many YRR are defending Mahaney “Apostleship” in the shepherding cult. Mohler a few years ago was saying that bloggers just don’t like Mahaney’s strong leadership which is biblical. Now, it is basically, ‘Mahaney did not know what was going on’. So which is it?.
The only thing the Mohler’s, Devers, Pipers, Trumans, Ortlunds, etc, etc, etc, have shown me is that they have either no spiritual discernment even at their level or they are just like Mahaney and kids really don’t matter much in the grand scheme of doctrine.
I believe it is both. I believe they are charlatans. I would hope Calvinists who are kind and loving would step up to the plate to call them out. And I have seen some mealy mouthed disagreement but not much righteous anger coming from the Calvin wing over these guys.
Is Christendom a safe place? I think not based upon what I have seen.
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Oasis says, “If we are not to blame for the abuse itself, then surely we invited any and all aftereffects (I was told I “choose to suffer”) . . .”
Whether it is an abusive marriage or abusive church, the expectation is that the abuse will be tolerated without seeking to stop the abuse itself, and without expressing, or even experiencing, negative emotional responses. Worse, whoever leaves the abusive marriage or church is said to be in rebellion.
I say that the abused person gets to decide whether a marriage is worth trying to save, but not at the price of becoming a doormat, bloodied or otherwise. Eventually, it must be recognized that there is no marriage, and it is time to walk away. I suppose it would depend on the specific facts, but I’m inclined to think that if children are being affected, the time to walk is now. With or without children involved, any effort at resolution may require separation. It depends on the extent of the abuse, and the abused person gets to decide. The main point I am trying to make is that it is the abused person who gets to decide.
If the abuse is taking place within a victimizing church situation, I would be inclined to say run, don’t walk, and do it now. There is no hope an abusive church situation can be resolved.
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Homeschool is back in session & I miss my summer vacation & free time to comment dearly! I’m having withdrawal symptoms. 🙂
I’ve read thru the comments & would like to take a shot at answering Ric’s question about love, hope & right solutions.
I’ll start by asking a few simple questions. Why is there no Christian liaison for crimes like murder, burglary, drug dealing? Why don’t churches hire Christian orgs. to help them figure out how to aid victims of these crimes? Sound crazy? Then why aren’t victims of abuse (spousal, sexual, child, etc.) treated with the same logical, level-headed action/concern? Why does it seem like abuse is handled differently? And why is it so hard for many abuse victims to get help in churches? This makes NO sense to me. Abuse is not a gum chewing violation, failure to attend, failure to tithe violation to be handled in-house.
However much Boz & his org are good & helpful, I think this is what Paul Dohse & Lydia are driving at. They seem to care much & practically. And they’re looking at facts, results. Why would church orgs. pay money for middle man orgs. when they could pay for victim’s therapy, hospital, legal bills, financial support?
I think Paul D. nailed it, but it seems to have been overlooked somehow: Love is an action. It’s advising victims to go to the POLICE. And then supporting them thru the process. Period. Just as you would for any other crime. Read what he wrote again. I can tell it seems plain, logical to him & that’s probably what drives his frustration! Shouldn’t we all be a little frustrated by now if we care & want justice for victims?
What would we want for one of our own kids? I’m sure it would look like love in action, right? There is a time for tender, loving feelings. I think we all agree on that one. And there is also a time for swift, loving action. True, real love. That, I fear, is not always understood amongst Christians.
We are not to create crosses to put ourselves on. We were not meant to live our life on a cross. We are not Jesus, God. Jesus wants us to live like He lived, love like He loved, not experience His death every day. Christianity is not death & suffering. Following Jesus is freedom & hope. I pray this makes sense. There are those who need our loving action.
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Lydia, red flag is right. So full of wisdom, as always. Really love your 9:32 AM comment way above. Bravo, bravo.
“Is Christendom a safe place? I think not based upon what I have seen.”
I was just thinking about this earlier, and very sadly agree with you completely. The past few years have been so eye-opening for me. Feels like a face mask fell off of someone I trusted and thought I knew. Having spent most of my life outside of Christendom (even as a Christian), I had a much different idea of what made up the Christian world I was missing out on. Christendom, this is Christendom? Christianity, where are you? But it can be found here and there, thank God…
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“The very idea that God sent abuse to a person, especially a child, to bring about change, is an abusive statement in and of itself. And, I think, heretical.”
An Attorney, thank you for calling this abusive (and heretical). That is a very validating statement to many people, not heard nearly enough.
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A mom, Thanks for bringing it home in your no nonsense articulate manner you are becoming known for.
Perhaps I am jaded in my environment here. I see YRR either still promoting Mahaney or ignoring all that has happened in the last 5 years. I see we are constantly accused of sinning for asking questions about doctrine, etc. Who are you to judge God? You have your own agenda!
It is a world of smoke and mirrors.
So what to do? Say nothing and be “tolerant”? Assume there is love behind every word and deed when word and deed are incongruent?
When we back it up and look at the forest instead of the trees….we must ask….why on earth do we need a “Christian” organization to investigate EVIL done to people in another “Christian” organization.
Have we lost the plot completely? I think we have. And based upon my own experience in the mega seeker world, I think the way this stuff is handled is so the institution can be saved/vindicated in a way that does not ruin their image. I saw it often. The institution deserves to cease to exist. Not be saved.
When Christians find EVIL in their organization they deal with it swiftly and professionally. Christians do not have a permit to do evil to others because they are Christians as in Jesus died so we can do evil and be saved. But that is what they are really saying to the world. We have some special laws that protect us from consequences because we deal with evil differently?
I realize in most of these situations statue of limitations have run out or there are jurisdiction issues. So what. Evil happened there. So what are we going to do about it. Argue the pragmatic details?
I know nothing about the Bob Jones thing but if any of the victims signed off on any thing to talk with GRACE, I would see a lawyer to make sure I did not hem myself in unknowingly. I would not want to be limited by any possibility of a class action suit in the future. We really have brainwashed people it is a sin to sue others who do evil/protect evil and call themselves Christians. It ain’t so. Evil is evil and those who enable it are guilty, too. Lawsuits are a way of allowing the civil authorities to deal with evil when technicalities get in the way such as jurisdiction, etc. And maybe justs maybe you might get enough money to compensate for all the therapy and rebuilding your life. If anything let one hope it could cause the organization to have to go out of business. I was hoping that for SGM……but people remain brainwashed adn follow their favorite guru saying no church is “perfect” (how about pure?)
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Oasis, They ARE out there. Unfortunately, many have left the corrupt institutions. The internet allowed many to find each other.
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paulspassingthoughts:
You’ve made some serious accusations about GRACE and Boz.
You wrote: “GRACE deliberately prolonged the investigation to save ABWE.”
You wrote: “Boz is a fraud.”
You compared Boz to the “Nazi Party agreed with murdering Jews—should they now be our freaking heroes?!!!!!!!”
I’m sorry, all I’ve seen are Appeals to Fear, Equivocations, or Straw Man argument (Boz is Presbyterian—A Calvinist (GASP) therefore he’s incapable of investigating these things) or other logical fallacy’s you’ve posted so far such as the obvious “Guilt by Association” by bringing up his brother Tullian,
Where’s your proof? I seriously would like to know. If GRACE and Boz are frauds, I *will* expose it much like myself and others have exposed another group named—-the Christian Law Association (CLA)
I was abused, child sex-trafficked and much more as a member of Independent Fundamental Baptist Church movement. There is a problem with the Gibbs and the CLA, but that *major problem* has NOTHING to do with The Gibbs law firm run by David Gibbs, Jr. and his son, David Gibbs, III’s faith— Independent Fundamental Baptist.
The CLA claims it was founded in 1969 to ” providing free legal assistance to Bible-believing churches and Christians who are experiencing difficulty in practicing their religious faith because of governmental regulation, intrusion, or prohibition in one form or another.”
The CLA call themselves “Legal Missionaries,” and solicit funds from 100’s of Baptist churches *mission funds” throughout the country. It doesn’t stop there. David Gibbs, Jr. is the host of “Legal Alert Radio Program” which claims to keep Christians “updated on all the latest issues our ministry is facing, and it will inform you on your liberties as a Christian.: “Legal Alert Radio Program” is carried on more than 1,500 Christian radio stations.
The truth is, Gibb’s Jr. founded the CLA to defend Lester Roloff who ran a series of girl and boys “homes for troubled youth.” Lester Roloff was a serial child abuser. He and his staff abused both boys and girls physically and sexually.
The CLA is nothing but an ambulance chaser and defense attorney with “Christian” in its title.
CLA attorney’s defended many other pastors who physically and sexually abused children.
No matter how much hype they peddle, the CLA or the Gibbs, fighting for Christian Liberty, most of Gibbs practice has been as a defense attorney for pastors and others who physically, or sexually abused children in churches, Christian Schools and Independent Fundamental Boarding Homes.
Not only does David Gibbs, defend the individual accused, Gibbs works for the specific church to minimize damages, both civil and otherwise.
There are many, many cases where Gibbs has been supported as a “Legal Missionary” and parents gave their money only to later have their child raped or abused. When that occurs, the only person whose “liberty” is being defended is the pervert who abused the child in God’s name. The CLA is nothing but defense firms whose attorneys (all around flying monkey’s) leap into action defend child abusers, rapists, child molesters and those who cover such crimes.
.
I can show you case files, depositions, court decisions to back up these claims against the CLA going all the way back to the 70’s and continuing to this day. To back my claims against the CLA, I can provide enough legal documents to choke an elephant.
I was responsible for getting the David Gibbs, Jr “Legal Alert Radio Program” removed from a Philadelphia area Christian Radio Station.
Please show me your proof. I *promise* you if you do, Boz and GRACE will lose my support and the support most BJU survivors. It shouldn’t be too hard to back up your claims. Boz T. and GRACE are attorney’s after all. Show me cases where Boz/GRACE has claimed to be on the side of victims of child abuse, but then showed up as a defense attorney/attorney’s for perpetrators. If GRACE/Boz defends abusers while claiming to be on the side of victims, these cases should be rather easy to find as they’re a matter of public record. Show me, that kind of evidence and *trust me* I will shout it from the housetops. We survivors don’t need that kind of “help.”
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Gary, the expectation you describe is terrifying. That is the language of death right there. I was told I choose to suffer, as in, if I suffer from aftereffects, then it must be because I want/choose to suffer. Knowing that people are told to actually choose suffering abuse is unfathomable to me. Leaves me speechless. I consider that dangerous and irresponsible. Also, unloving, unwise, nonsensical and criminal.
“The main point I am trying to make is that it is the abused person who gets to decide.”
Love this line. In my opinion, it should be the standard in many contexts. When it comes to leaving an abusive marriage or church, though…my advice is always to run.
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