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ADMIN NOTE: The comments are closed on this thread and a new one has opened here:
It’s Calvinism Free-For-All: Off the Top of Your Head, Part 2
The other record-breaking thread is getting really long with comments and so I thought it might be good to let Brian’s new comment have its own thread since it’s on one topic. I’m doing something I’ve never done before. We’re going to let this post be an open post on Calvinism. Many of the people I cover in abuse stories come from either Calvinist or Neo-Calvinist background. That’s not to say there are not abuse issues within Arminian churches (i.e., Calvary Chapel). I’ve mentioned before that I have friends who are Calvinist who certainly are not abusive. In fact, they defend the oppressed/abused. We have to be careful about those kinds of blanket statements. But there may be some truth to the idea that some doctrines may be a better “breeding” ground for abusive-type leaders.
So, in light of Brian’s comment below, let’s go for it. And okay, I give up . . . go ahead and spell out that “C” word if you want – LOL 🙂
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Ed said: “Don’t call yourself a Calvinist if you don’t support everything about John Calvin.”
Ed, Calvinism and John Calvin are not synonymous, regardless of what you say.
Holding to the tenets of what is commonly called Calvinism does NOT equate to agreeing with everything Calvin did or taught.
I am curious…does anyone on here even know what they are talking about when they use the term “Calvinism”? I’d be interested to see some responses. What is Calvinism? You’ve all been railing against it, so I expect you can describe it without having to look it up. If you have to look it up, then why are you so against something about which you actually do not know the details?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Ed,
“Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.” – Prov. 16:5
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It sounds like you guys are not willing to affirm your position on free will.
Gary came close but then backed off of it in his last comment.
If man truly has free will, then doesn’t he have the will to not sin at all?
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I affirmed my position numerous times. You are not listening. If you have an ear, then hear. Jesus was cryptic, too. So was all of the Prophets.
YES, WE HAVE FREE WILL. I said that time and time again, with scripture references.
You said:
““Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.” – Prov. 16:5”
Well, since I am a Christian, then I am saved by grace, therefore, I will go unpunished, because I am under the perseverance of the saints.
So, based on your theology, why do you care if I am arrogant? If I am a Calvinist, I have a green light to be arrogant, because I am saved even if I am arrogant, right?
Besides, I quote scripture, so this is a false allegation of me being arrogant. I wear the false allegation as a badge of honor. That is what I meant to convey.
But you still don’t get it!!
Ed
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Julie Anne – I am shocked, shocked, that the commenter at TGC implied that one can be a believer without fully embracing the Reformed faith.
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Brian said:
“So, Abraham NEVER sinned because the law of Moses was not yet handed down?”
Tell me Brian, what sin could be IMPUTED since he was before the law?
I will answer for you: NONE
Since the answer is none, no sin is imputed to him, and he is considered the same as a non-sinner.
Therefore, Abraham NEVER sinned, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES THAT HE SINNED…all because there was no law. He had no knowledge of the law.
He obeyed God completely based on Genesis 26.
Ed
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Jeff Brown – I’m surprised that comment made it out of moderation. love your sarcasm 🙂
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By the way Brian, I didn’t back off my original answer, as you allege. I completed it. The answer is both yes and no. I suggest that you have fallen into the trap of binary thinking. Maybe that’s part of what makes you come across to me as being much younger than you would now have us believe are.
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So, Ed…
Does that mean that Adam never sinned, since the law had not yet been written down?
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“He cannot win his point unless he can succeed in circumscribing your ability to respond.
Then again, it is not surprising that a Disciple of the spiritual tyrant, John Calvin, would try to play manipulative debating games.”
Gary, This is how it always goes. Because it is about winning and proving what ignorant peasants we are that do not understand “the clear teaching of God’s word” because we have not been given the magic dust.
The problem which I have stated over and over, is Calvinists and non Calvinists are working from different definitions and that colors everything.
When the foundational premises are:
God ONLY cares about His Glory
and
We are all born guilty of Adam’s sin and are vile sinners even in the womb…our very existence is sin or as A mom said, vipers in diapers.
These two foundational premises concerning the character of God AND our relationship to Him as His creation….are twisted interpretations and NOVEL concepts introduced by the Catholic Augustine, furthered by Luther and systematized by Calvin.
It is always interesting to note when the blood started to flow in Christianity by historical ruling Christians and why.
(Augustine wanted to wipe out the Donatists. Why? The main reason is because they refused to take communion from corrupt priests which made them not real believers in the Augustinian sense. This stuff has been going on since then. They just don’t have state power now, thankfully)
So that is why I won’t answer Brian’s question with a yes or no. It is both/and. Not either/or. Something Calvinists cannot grasp. And another reason why I hate all ST. Where is the Holy Spirit in ST?
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“Therefore, Abraham NEVER sinned, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES THAT HE SINNED…all because there was no law. He had no knowledge of the law.”
Abraham had the law written on his heart, as Paul talks about in Romans 2. Abraham was a Gentile…a pagan…a worshipper of idols and false gods.
One of Paul’s main points in Romans 2 is that the law exists, even apart from the written law of Moses.
But that is a diversion from my initial question about having true free will to the point that one has the power to not ever sin at all.
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Brian, your questions may be interesting, but they are pointless. Only Jesus matters. If you just cannot let it go, perhaps you should ask yourself why.
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Brian, there is a reason the Reformers and Catholics baptized infants and that reason is the backbone of what we are discussing. They understood their doctrine better than the Calvinists today who DON’T baptize infants.
How else could those vipers in diapers be saved if they died as infants? Who could guarantee they were elect as defined by Calvinism since they have Adam’s guilt and are vile sinners when conceived? There are SBC Calvinist leaders right now who cannot emphatically say that infants who die are with Jesus. They were on the Calvinism UNITY committee. They won’t say it. And they are more honest than the Calvinists who don’t baptize infants who say infants are saved according to their own doctrine.
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Gary, One of the problems all of us believers face is that too many unbelievers look more like Jesus than we do. If our “doctrine” does not make us more just, loving and merciful then it is pointless. If our beliefs cause us to support guys like Mahaney and his defenders (and other ridiculous Talmudic teachings) then we are WORSE than the world because it is done in the Name of Jesus. (And there are plenty of Mahaney’s out there making bank of Jesus)
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Brian, Define sin for us. The word is “missing the mark”. So what is missing the mark? You keep throwing out the word sin so define it specifically. (Ed has already done it but you obviously do not agree)
And explain how a baby sins. Squirming on the changing table? Grabbing another babies sippy cup?
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Brian said:
“Does that mean that Adam never sinned, since the law had not yet been written down?”
Now I know you haven’t read anything that I said. That just goes to show that you have no interest in finding out WHY we believe what we believe.
We were discussing Abraham, not Adam.
If you want to know about Adam, he had KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
That is the KEY. NO KNOWLEDGE, NO SIN IS IMPUTED. Adam GOT knowledge. He got that knowledge supernaturally. We get it by the Law of Moses:
Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Ed
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Brian said:
“Abraham had the law written on his heart, as Paul talks about in Romans 2. Abraham was a Gentile…a pagan…a worshipper of idols and false gods.
One of Paul’s main points in Romans 2 is that the law exists, even apart from the written law of Moses.”
My response:
How many times do I have to say this, Brian?
YOU are WRONG. What a person’s conscience tells them is not the same for everyone. They are only judged by what they know, not by what they don’t know. they are judged by their conscience. If their conscience convicts them, then they are guilty. Then what they do about it will clear their conscience, or not clear their conscience.
In addition, Abraham was NOT A PAGAN. His FATHER was the pagan. Abraham destroyed his fathers pagan gods. This is found in Oral Jewish writings, the Talmud.
Ed
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http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/
How interesting~ Funny how this doctrine keeps getting tweaked over the centuries.
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Brian, Do you believe what Hebrews 10:26-31 says?
I’m not sure reformed believe this, since they continue to call themselves the worst sinners they know, instead of righteous saints of God. Let sin abound so grace can abound even more? I don’t think so! 🙂
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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A Mom,
Brian referred to Heb 10:26 before. He seems to think it is proof that anybody who keeps on sinning was never saved to begin with. In fact, this is one where I took him to task for representing that Scripture SAYS something, when he should have told us it’s what he thinks it MEANS. Brian hasn’t responded to my assertion that what the Hebrews 10:26 passage MEANS is determined by what Scripture SAYS here:
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6, ESV).
Well, as you know, There are a lot of things Brian just ignores. I see it as evidence that his views simply cannot be defended.
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Gary W, Thanks for getting me up to speed.
These scriptures go together.
And how would we know the difference between a reformed “can’t think of one good thing I’ve done since I was (regenerated) born again & I’m proud of it” person vs. a person who sins willfully after hearing/reading the truth? If Brian says this text is proof that if a person keeps sinning they aren’t saved, then he must believe the “Reformed group” in general isn’t saved! What kind of “gospel message” is that?
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Mod Note: Gracewriterrandy left a comment at another place and I have moved it here because it really belongs in this Calvinist thread. I thought some of you might have some thoughts to add:
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I hate the bimodal choice here. Either God controls it or God is powerless. How about if God has the power but withholds intervening because he has set up a universe where human being have choices and sometimes choose to be evil, including causing harm to other humans. And requires that people figure out how to respond to evil, to prevent severe harm to other humans, etc.
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Yes, Attorney, It requires that WE love justice. I cannot stand this idea that we are supposed to wait around for God to do everything.
Randy writes:
“The God Calvin worshipped is one who has promised to bring judgment on oppressors.”
Except Calvin, of course. Who was a horrible oppressor. In the Name of God, of course.. Funny how they dodge that or rewrite history.
Randy writes:
“The God you seem to have rejected already is a God who controls all things for the good of his people and who is able to bring ultimate good to his people out of the most horrendous and painful circumstances of life. Your other choice is also a god who was behind the curtain watching the abuse you suffered but who was powerless to do anything about it because it was out of his control. ”
Here is the irony of his position. The outcome here on earth is the same. Why feel better that God is in total control if He did not stop it? That just means He willed if He is in total control on purpose. This is the ideology that says if that bad happened to you…well sucks to be you, doesn’t it? You can be more pious by thinking God was in control of the crimes done to you. After all, you are a horrible sinner, too. you deserve hell just as much as your abuser.
Of course the God I worship is a wimpering grandpa behind the curtain. Not a Glorious God who created beings who can say NO to Him. He is that Sovereign. And He wants US to step up to the plate and make it better as the kingdom HERE AND NOW. Not blaming Him for our evil as Calvinists do.
BTW: Randy was sending me long email lectures about how wrong we are. I asked him to stop and he intimated he did not have to. But he did. Thanks, Randy for stopping.
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Gary and A mom,
Hebrews 6 and 10 are problems for the Calvinists. Especially when contrasted with their interpretation of Romans. I once heard a well known and like Cal pastor preach that Hebrews 10 does not apply to us today.
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lydiasellerofpurple
“BTW: Randy was sending me long email lectures about how wrong we are. I asked him to stop and he intimated he did not have to. But he did. Thanks, Randy for stopping.”
Well, I got him so ticked off at me that he begged me to stop emailing him!!
He said to me:
“If you had an education, perhaps you wouldn’t make stupid statements like these. Just go away. I don’t have time for stubborn people who have arrived at wrong conclusions and are too bullheaded to listen to reason.”
And
“Calvin was never in charge in Geneva. Burning Michael Servetus for heresy was not murder. It was capital punishment. In those days, heresy was punishable by capital punishment. Calvin was at odds with the council. He begged for a more humane punishment but was refused. I do not personally agree with any part of the church- state union that existed in Geneva and I don’t believe Servetus should have been burned, but with their misunderstanding of the perpetuity of the old covenant, they were simply obeying God in their view. That is a far cry from murder. You have accused Calvin of “having people murdered.” Can you tell me anyone else whose death Calvin had a part in?”
And
“Now, go away and don’t bother me anymore.”
And finally
“Just so you don´t waste too much more time sending me emails, you need to know I am deleting them without reading them. I would suggest you seek professional mental help. You seem to be deeply disturbed.”
I get that a lot from Calvinist preachers/teachers. A Badge of HONOR!!
Ed
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A huge problem for Randy are Calvin’s own letters that were preserved and the resources of the church/state that were preserved. Calvin indicts himself because it was his normal. And this is Before and AFTER Servetus’ murder we have such information from his own hand!. Wonder what excuse Randy has for Castillio? Or Calvin claiming he could not visit his church folk who were dying of plague because if he died it would weaken the church? Or the punishments meted out for falling asleep during his sermons or criticizing him?
Me thinks Randy has ignored any history that might topple his idol. And when I see them defend Calvin, it only gives me a warning to avoid at all costs.
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Ed: I’m so confused about this quote from Randy: “Just so you don´t waste too much more time sending me emails, you need to know I am deleting them without reading them. I would suggest you seek professional mental help. You seem to be deeply disturbed.”
So he thinks mental health is legitimate/respectable and can be helpful? That’s not the usual stance that I’ve heard from his types. So many refer to psychology as psychobabble. My head is spinning.
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This sentence of Randy’s angers me: “It appears to me, you have not understood the choices you have if you are going to believe in God at all.”
The last phrase in particular: “if you are going to believe in God at all” I’m sorry, Randy, but seems to be a rude and judgmental thing to say. It seems to imply that you don’t think I believe in God at all at this point. Am I missing something?
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Randy only knows the either/or choices. Allah or Wimpy Grandpa in the sky. Can’t you just feel the love coming from “his” truth?
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The god of “free will” seems to be a cold fish, creating people he knows are going straight to hell while doing nothing to stop it. Why would he do that?
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Brian,
“The god of “free will” seems to be a cold fish, creating people he knows are going straight to hell while doing nothing to stop it. Why would he do that?”
Because God ONLY wants AUTHENTIC worshipers. People who decide to worship him on their own. He doesn’t want fake and phony love from us. He wants genuine love from us.
Ed
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So you don’t have a problem with God creating certain people that he knows (even before they are born) are going to hell? Why would he do that? Why would he knowingly allow someone to be born that he already knows is going to end up in hell? That’s pretty cold.
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Brian,
I don’t believe (personally) that God “chooses” to know in advance who is going to hell.
It is said that God does not remember our sins once forgiven.
By your logic, God always remembers everything, and at no time does he ever forget anything.
But, I take HIM by HIS word that he REMEMBERS our sin NO MORE.
That is the sovereignty of God that I believe in. Hence, I do not believe that God knows in advance who is going to be saved, and who isn’t.
Yes, God initiates, as it is stated. God draws people. But those drawn, still have a choice in the matter to love God by their own free will, that comes genuinely from the heart.
God remembers our sin NO MORE. Yes, God is forgetful, on purpose. He decreed it. That is NOT a mystery. It’s his word, and I believe it. The only one who wants to continually remind you of your sins is Satan. He constantly accuses you before the Lord, as the Bible states.
Ed
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Methinks maybe Brian is now just trying to see how long he can keep this thread going. Perhaps I will change my mind, but I think I will quit taking his bait until he has answered all the questions I previously put to him, as well as this new one:
Brian, are you a pastor and/or elder and, if so, which?
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Ed,
How does God set Paul apart before he was born if he didn’t know Paul was going to get saved?
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Brian,
Paul still had a choice in the matter. He was murdering Christians. God “intervened”, and asked why he was persecuting him.
Paul therefore believed from THAT MOMENT ON. He still had a choice to not believe. God had to reveal himself as Jesus to Paul, as Paul asked, Who are you LORD? For which God said, “I am Jesus”.
Prior to that, Paul despised Jesus followers, murdering them.
Paul had a change of heart, not because God chose him to be saved, but because Paul believed from his own heart.
God LEADS. That is the Holy Spirit that leads. The HOLY SPIRIT is the one who leads Christians to go here, or go there, and, just like Abraham, he had no clue where the Holy Spirit would lead him.
Abraham didn’t know where he was going…he just went. When he finally got to the land of Canaan, then finally God told him that this was the land that he was talking about.
But Paul still had a choice. You deny that.
Ed
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Ed,
I’m not talking about Paul’s ability to choose. You said God “chooses” to not know who is going to get saved, yet somehow he set Paul apart before he was born. How could he do that if he didn’t know what Paul would do?
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Brian,
You had said:
I’m not talking about Paul’s ability to choose. You said God “chooses” to not know who is going to get saved, yet somehow he set Paul apart before he was born. How could he do that if he didn’t know what Paul would do?
You are referencing Galatians 1:15
Your ESV Version:
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace
My KJV
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS.
Your version is the ole Wescott and Hort.
If any words from my version was not based on the Greek Text, it would be an Italicized word. WOMB is NOT Italicized.
Therefore God separated Paul FROM HIS mothers womb, not set apart before being born.
All babies born are separated FROM HIS/HER mothers womb. It’s called BIRTH.
Ed
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Brian,
And, he was “called” on the road to Damascus.
Ed
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Ed,
Even the non-Calvinist John Wesley, whose commentary is based on version that used the Textus Receptus and not Wescott&Hort, states that inGal.1:15 Paul is talking about his “unconditional predestination”, not his being removed from the birth canal.
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Brian,
I don’t base my philosophy on what dead people “think”. And, I disregard what even John Wesley “THINKS”. I don’t care what they think, I quote scripture, and compare scripture, and I make up my own mind.
What you and other Calvinists do, is to base your beliefs on what dead people thought. It’s more philosophy, i.e. Calvin said, Luther said, Dever said, MacArthur said, Wesley said. I don’t care what they said.
I live, Jesus lives. That’s all that matters to me. Jesus is the LOGOS of God, not Calvin, not Wesley, Not Luther, Not Pope whoever.
Ed
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Putting your bizarre take on Gal.1:15 aside for the moment, how does God choose anyone for salvation prior to creation if he doesn’t know who will be saved?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (KJV)
And where in Scripture does it say that God chooses not to know who will be saved?
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Brian said:
“Putting your bizarre take on Gal.1:15 aside for the moment, how does God choose anyone for salvation prior to creation if he doesn’t know who will be saved?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (KJV)
And where in Scripture does it say that God chooses not to know who will be saved?”
My response:
What the Calvinists focus on is this:
“he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world”
I’ve covered this time and time and time again.
The words “THAT WE” is the focus.
That we:
Be Holy and Blameless before him in love.
THAT is what was chosen, is the THAT WE.
What was predestined was the CONDUCT OF CHRISTIANS, not the Christian.
Ed
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And it is quite amazing that all the disciples Jesus chose followed him and only one fell away specifically so that scripture would be fulfilled. That’s a thousand batting average for Jesus. He Must have been a great guesser! How was Jesus able to pick the guys who would follow him if he didn’t know who would get saved?
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Brian asks:
“And where in Scripture does it say that God chooses not to know who will be saved?”
Have you ever given a book report in school, Brian? In a book report, you give a synopsis of what YOU believe the book was about. But you must read the book completely thru to understand it. You cannot just pick a couple of paragraphs from page 243, and try to put page 243 into context.
The context is the whole book. Unless you study the whole book, you will never see the same thing that I see. You concentrate on Calvinist talking points. It is the only thing that I have seen you do. One verse here, one verse there…it’s all Calvinist talking points.
You will never be free of the Calvinist talking points. You are hooked so much that you will never understand where we come from.
Ed
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But how could he predestine the conduct of Christians if he didn’t know if anyone would get saved? It logically follows that, if God didn’t know who was going to get saved then he didn’t know if ANYBODY would get saved. How could he predestine an unknown and potentially nonexistent group?
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Brian, you keep concentrating on the word “saved”. I don’t see that word when discussing Judas. How do you know that Judas was not saved? He repented that he had sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, so he committed suicide. All sins are forgiven, especially when Jesus said to the Jews, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
He also said that all sins are forgivable, except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That would include the sin of suicide. Judas was sorry for his deed. But yet, you judge Judas as not being “saved”.
How many Jews thought that Jesus wasn’t “saved”? They thought that Jesus was of the devil.
Ed
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Brian said:
“But how could he predestine the conduct of Christians if he didn’t know if anyone would get saved? It logically follows that, if God didn’t know who was going to get saved then he didn’t know if ANYBODY would get saved. How could he predestine an unknown and potentially nonexistent group?”
No, it doesn’t “logically follow”.
God promised eternal life to those who believe.
Liken this to a foot ball team.
The name of the team is called, “Eternal Life”.
In the beginning, there is no one on the team.
Then God asks, “Who wants to join my team?” (God initiating).
And we say, “I do”. (Our FREE WILL Response)
And he states, “You are on the team.”
That is logical.
Ed
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But how could he predestine the conduct of that team when he doesn’t even know if anyone is going to join the team?
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If God doesn’t know who specifically is going to say “I want to join the team”, then there is no way he can know for sure if ANYONE is going to join.
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Brian,
“But how could he predestine the conduct of that team when he doesn’t even know if anyone is going to join the team?”
I find your question perplexing.
If you had $1,000,000 to give away, and you asked “who wants it”, are you saying that you would have no takers? You KNOW that there would be SOMEONE who wants your money. You just don’t know “who”.
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sounds to me, tho, that God had FAITH that there would be takers of his offer.
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“If you had $1,000,000 to give away, and you asked “who wants it”, are you saying that you would have no takers? You KNOW that there would be SOMEONE who wants your money. You just don’t know “who”.”
I might “think” or “assume” that someone would accept it, but I wouldn’t know for sure. And under your view of God, he wouldn’t know for certain either. That just doesn’t seem to be the same God that is portrayed throughout Scripture.
Your understanding of God has Jesus coming to potentially save no one.
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I’m not buying what your selling, Brian. But if you have a million dollars to give away, I’ll take what your giving!!
Ed
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“The god of “free will” seems to be a cold fish, creating people he knows are going straight to hell while doing nothing to stop it. Why would he do that?”
Your god of determinism IS a cold one, creating people HE will send too hell ON PURPOSE for His own Glory. Why would He do that.
Free will only proves that God is secure in his Sovereignty. Brian did you write your comments of your own free will or not? If not, then I have to wonder who makes you write them. God or Satan. Because some force is controlling you. Not Brian. He has no volition. So why should we listen to you?
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That is the thing, Ed. Without their gurus they are lost. That movement cannot understand the Holy Spirit at all. They have replaced that wisdom with human wisdom and the fruit of doing that is obvious by what we have seen come out of that movement concerning behavior and attitude.
I think folks need to be preparing for what it will have produced in the next 10 years or so. They target teens big time. A religion of death targeting teens.
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This is too funny what someone posted over at TWW:
The Luther Insulter
http://ergofabulous.org/luther/
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That is AWESOME!!! Oh, I am so bookmarking it. I can see some tweets coming.
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Luther is dainty compared to Saint Thomas “Man For All Seasons” More.
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“Your god of determinism IS a cold one, creating people HE will send too hell ON PURPOSE for His own Glory. Why would He do that.”
You view my God this way, and I will respect your view.
But that does not resolve the problem you have with your own god who creates people he knows are going nowhere but to hell. He knows they are damned and he creates them anyway. Is that a god of love?
You have critiqued “my” God…now take that finger you are pointing about a hateful god and turn it back around to your own and examine why he would knowingly create someone who is going nowhere but to eternal damnation. Can you give a straightforward answer as to how that god is any more loving than the one I put forth?
At least mine is gracious enough to make sure that some will receive mercy. Yours just leaves everyone to fend for themselves. If you are honest with yourselves, you must come to terms with this reality about the nature of your god.
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GR Randy said, “Whether you believe it our not, the God Calvin worshiped, the God who has revealed himself in the Word of God, hates the abuse you suffered even more than you do. That God has ordained all that occurs in our lives does not mean that he has caused it to occur or that he calls it good.
It appears to me, you have not understood the choices you have if you are going to believe in God at all. The God you seem to have rejected already is a God who controls all things for the good of his people and who is able to bring ultimate good to his people out of the most horrendous and painful circumstances of life. Your other choice is also a god who was behind the curtain watching the abuse you suffered but who was powerless to do anything about it because it was out of his control. ”
If you read what he writes very carefully, you will notice Randy makes a HUGE contradiction:
the God Calvin worshiped… hates the abuse you suffered.
The God you seem to have rejected already is a God who controls all things…
1.Any rational, reasonable, thinking human being will easily see these two statements don’t add up.
2.This guy says a God who created humans with free will is powerless. WRONG!
3.What Calvinists believe is simply this: An either/or. God either controls 24/7 and evil is really good, so they are comforted in their suffering and/or comforted in making others suffer. Or God is not in 24/7 control, which freaks them out. This religion appeals to control freaks!
4.They don’t understand the truth yet. God is powerful. God is so powerful he created humans with free will to reject Him if they want to. That rejection never undermines His power or authority! Praise our magnificent all powerful God! God is saddened by rejection, but the rejection itself NEVER will take away or lessens who God is. And GOD IS LOVE.
5.This is what Calvinists believe about their “powerful” God:
I am all powerful 24/7 because I created a computer that does what I make it do ALL THE TIME, it never deviates. I would lose my 24/7 power if I created a child who had free will but didn’t chose to obey. That would threatened my superiority. So I would NEVER create a child who could chose to love back & obey ON THEIR OWN. I will stick with the computer, which can’t love me back. That keeps me secure in my “all powerfulness”. But God is beyond these boundaries!
Now, who chooses the computer? Ones that don’t understand love. What is love? GOD. Did God chose the computer? Or did God chose to create people who make choices for themselves? Do we make our own choices, or are we just programmed computers? Machines that God will either surround Himself with or send to the dump for eternity. THAT IS THE QUESTION. And that is our VALUE in Calvinism! If you don’t think so, take a look at history & the present time.
If we are just programmed machines, then why was Jesus born in a barn? Why did Jesus sleep there in an animal feeding trough? Why was Jesus a carpenter & not a stock broker or rabbi/preacher? Why did Jesus show love for us by taking 40 lashings with a whip? Why did Jesus meet with the “untouchables” of that time? Why did Jesus weep when Lazarus died? Why did Jesus instruct us to pray, “God may your kingdom come, God may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, if God is already in microscopic control of earth? Did God do this for machines residing in skin & bones with bodies that bleed? Or did God do this for humans with souls created in God’s image, who feel: love, pain, joy, disappointment?
None of what Jesus (God in flesh) did makes any sense if we were just machines made by God, preprogrammed & hard coded, with no ability of our own to : think, speak, do, dream, hear, touch, taste, sense. This is Calvinism.
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Brian,
At least our God doesn’t send people to hell for some sort of a twisted glory, as if he gets his kicks out of it, for his own sick amusement of a cosmic play that he wrote, and that we are nothing more than mere puppets of a play, like a Movie. I guess your God is just up there eating some popcorn, with a mystical remote control to pause his play, so that he can get a refill on a Root Beer, and maybe get some Jr. Mints!!
Gotta admit, it’s a pretty good DRAMA!!! Some Comedy. Do you smell Academy Award?
Ed
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JA said, The last phrase in particular: “if you are going to believe in God at all” I’m sorry, Randy, but seems to be a rude and judgmental thing to say. It seems to imply that you don’t think I believe in God at all at this point. Am I missing something?
JA, That was very hurtful. But you are right to point it out. Randy, & many Calvinists like him, believe that if you don’t buy into a God who made machines instead of humans with souls, that you were elected to hell. You buy into Calvinism and you are THE elect. If you don’t buy into Calvinism, you are elected to hell.
I am much more gracious. I believe people like Burleson & Crippen, if they are who they appear to be based on their actions, are born again. I don’t believe people who bully, oppress, threaten are obeying or following Jesus! But they can decide to repent & follow Jesus if they are convicted by their conscience and/or Holy Spirit.
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But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:20-24)
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Brian,
Oh, so I should thank your God for sending me to hell?
Brian, none of your Calvin references has anything to do with salvation. None of them.
What God does with clay or vessel, has nothing at all to do with salvation, or damnation. It’s all dealing with THIS LIFE ONLY.
Romans 9 is about the Pharaoh. SO, I WILL SAY AGAIN
BEFORE THE LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD, BUT WHERE NO LAW IS THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION.
Pharaoh is NOT IN HELL. God used Pharaoh in THIS LIFE for a PURPOSE.
But you think Pharaoh is burning in hell. WRONG ANSWER THERE BUDDY.
Ed
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Lydia said, ‘Me thinks Randy has ignored any history that might topple his idol. And when I see them defend Calvin, it only gives me a warning to avoid at all costs.”
Lest we forget, Calvin wrote awful things about the Jewish people!
Yes. It seems like idol worship. Fiercely defending Calvin & minimizing his evil actions & sins. Would I deserve to be defended if I wrote a letter saying Calvinists would never get out of my city alive, even if I had no power, means, ability to carry it out? Of course not! This is evil. And I would never think, say, do that. EVER. I believe in the VALUE of ALL human life. Guess what? Calvin wrote that about Michael Servetus & Calvin was the acting Magistrate of Geneva.
Yet Randy defends Calvin by saying Calvin isn’t “completely” responsible for Michael Servetus’ execution! And others who have defended Calvin here on this blog say the Catholic church is partially responsible, as if that removes Calvin’s responsibility. What if Michael was your child? Would it bring you comfort knowing Calvin was responsible for the arrest & imprisonment that led to your son’s death?
And why was Michael Servetus executed in Geneva, Switzerland? He disagreed with Calvin’s infant baptism salvation & said trinity wasn’t a word in the Bible (that God was one spirit, not 3 separate persons)! Michael was burned to death at the stake.
Puritans held to Calvin’s theology & took after Calvin’s murderous actions by:
1. drowning “supposed” witches
2 fining, whipping, banishing Baptists (who disagreed with infant baptism salvation)
3. persecuting the Quakers by drilling holes in their tongues & hanging them
4. persecuting other religious groups, like the Episcopalians
The Puritans were able to do this because it was legal back then, no separation of church (Puritan religion) & state (Massachusetts).
Hmmm. No wonder the Quakers were persecuted by the Puritans for their heretical beliefs: Jesus as the only high priest. All can come to Christ if they choose. Equality of women. Refusing to tithe. Religious toleration. Pacifism. Rejection of slavery. Prison reform.
From Patheos.com about Quakers:
Quakers believed true believers could engage the risen Lord directly through the Holy Spirit without ministers, priests, or the sacraments. All are capable of experiencing the promise of Christ, enabling all to live in Christ’s love. This belief influenced the position of the equality of women, a unique characteristic within Christianity in its time. This religious movement was not received well in England and they in turn were persecuted for not going to services of the Church of England, refusing to tithe, and for going to Quaker services. Their belief includes religious toleration and pacifism. Historically, the Society of Friends has endorsed strong moral codes including the refusal to participate in war, the refusal to own slaves, and the elimination of many worldly structures. Socially, they were committed to various causes including women’s suffrage, the abolition of slavery, and prison reform.
More on Puritan’s persecuting Quakers:
http://www.hallvworthington.com/Persecutions/Part-1.html
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Brian,
If I had a dollar each time I heard a Calvinist say or write the words mystery or paradox when explaining Calvinism, instead of actually explaining Calvinism, I’d be rich! 🙂
It’s seems to be the default go to when the speaker/writer starts to feel uncomfortable & can’t explain it logically. As if we should throw all logic out the window at that moment, stop thinking & turn our brains off! God did create us with a brain, you know. God wants us to use our brain to the best of our ability, IMO. And that includes using our brains to understand, love & serve God. 🙂
You do fly, drive, use electricity, enjoy air conditioning, right? All invented by our God-given brains! Quite a useful part of our wonderfully, amazingly created bodies. Bodies that house our souls. How much God loves us, his creation, that he would make us in His own image! Ahhh, how much God deserves our worship & adoration.
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Ed,
I am shocked that you think Romans 9 is about this life only.
How can you honestly believe that when the first thing Paul says is that he wishes he were accursed (anathema-separated from Christ) for the sake of his fellow Jews? So, he is willing to be eternally damned for the sake of the Jews’ temporary physical life here on earth? That doesn’t make any sense.
Paul is NOT talking about this temporal life…he is talking about eternal salvation, which becomes even clearer as you read further down in the chapter and see Paul talking about a righteousness from faith and not works.
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Brian,
I am shocked that you think it’s an eternal judgment of the pharaoh. But since you believe that sin is imputed no matter what to the unsaved, then of course you have the idea that Judas and the Pharaoh are burning in hell, as well as all of the Orthodox Jews who don’t believe in Jesus, and all of the ignorant people around the world who have no clue about Jesus.
But, I’ve read the whole book. I’ve studied the whole book. You only give talking points, which are Calvinist dogma.
Before the law, sin was in the world, but sin is NOT IMPUTED where there is no law.
Where no law is, there is no transgression.
For some reason, you think EVERYONE’S sins is imputed before “SALVATION”.
That is not true at all.
Judas repented of turning in Jesus for 30 pieces of silver…God USED Judas to get him to the cross, for that was the purpose of Jesus, to die on the cross.
The Pharaoh was used so that God would FREE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL from BONDAGE, because Moses was a TYPE of REDEEMER (Jesus).
It’s all about prophesy in regards to JESUS.
God BLINDED the Jews from the very beginning so that they would NOT UNDERSTAND, and therefore, God will have mercy in regards to their salvation on judgment day.
So, all of your talking points are baseless.
I know this makes NO SENSE to you. Vessel, clay, temple, dirt, dust, etc., are all terms for the body that dies, having nothing to do with the spirit which is eternal.
All of these biblical examples are THIS LIFE ONLY. After you die, there is no vessel, or clay.
You see things in the carnal, and you never see things in the spiritual. That is a common mistake with Calvinism. It’s all carnal exegesis with you people.
Ed
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Ed,
Do you believe everyone is ultimately saved?
It sounds as if you believe Judas was saved, and yet Jesus said it would have been better if he’d never been born. Judas was called the “Son of perdition” by Jesus himself. And Peter said Judas left them to “go to his own place”.
Do you believe Judas was saved to eternal life? This is very important in helping me understand where you are coming from.
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As for all the people who “have no clue” about Jesus, Good makes it clear that they are still without excuse:
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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A Mom
Yeah – Ya gotta love these Quaker guys…
“Quakers believed true believers could engage the risen Lord directly through the Holy Spirit without ministers, priests, or the sacraments. All are capable of experiencing the promise of Christ, enabling all to live in Christ’s love.”
Yup – George Fox and the Society of Friends were persecuted
for teaching that Jesus was the “ONE Teacher.”
George Fox “told them there was an anointing within man
**to teach him,** and that the Lord would teach His people Himself. “
They really ticked off “The God Ordained Authority” of the day – aka – The Church of England – And the Paid Clergy – The Quakers were serious about “the priesthood of all believers” – And preached against having a “Paid Clergy” because ALL believers have “The Inner Light” – Jesus
GEORGE FOX – An Autobiography
http://www.strecorsoc.org/gfox/ch01.html
“Did not the Apostle say to believers that they needed
NO man to teach them, but as the anointing teacheth them?”
“I saw that being bred at Oxford or Cambridge did not qualify
or fit a man to be a minister of Christ; what then should I follow such for?”
Chapter one…
…But my relations were much troubled that I would NOT go with them to **hear the priest;** for I would go into the orchard or the fields, with my Bible, by myself. I asked them, “Did not the Apostle say to believers that they needed no man to teach them, but as the anointing teacheth them?” Though they knew this was Scripture, and that it was true, yet they were grieved because I could not be subject in this matter, **to go to hear the priest with them.**
I saw that to be a true believer was another thing than they looked upon it to be; and I saw that being bred at Oxford or Cambridge did not qualify or fit a man to be a minister of Christ; what then should I follow such for? So neither them, nor any of the dissenting people, could I join with; but was as a stranger to all, **relying wholly upon the Lord Jesus Christ.”**
Yeah – gotta love ole George Fox…
Don’t need NO edjumacated cemetarians – Don’t need NO Paid Clergy… 😉
He GOT Jesus…
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A Mom, All (except Brian),
I suggest that the following verses provide the context within which Romans 9 must be understood:
And in this way all Israel will be saved . . . (Romans 11:26a, ESV)
And
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32, ESV)
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Amos, All (except Brian),
Yep, when mere men start insisting on submission to their personal authority, you get things like the judicial murder of Miguel Servetus by John Calvin, the attempted judicial murder of Sebastian Castellio by John Calvin, the general reign of terror (thousands burned at the stake as I understand it) throughout Calvinistic Europe, and the Salem witch trials perpetrated by the Calvinistic Puritans.
At least today these Calvinistic/Reformed types are limited to such things as ostracism, shunning, excommunication, shaming, economic boycotts, slander, cyber stalking, frivolous lawsuits and such like.
No, the fruits of Calvinistic/Reformed and other authoritarian doctrine are not good at all. George Fox had a better idea.
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“Luther is dainty compared to Saint Thomas “Man For All Seasons” More”
His boss was meaner and he paid dearly with his head for not “submitting” to his elder. The defender of the faith. :o) That is what happens were mere humans are placed as someone you have to follow.
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“At least mine is gracious enough to make sure that some will receive mercy. ”
You have just described Allah. Allah is also described as deterministic and man has no volition in that construct, either
The problem is you cannot even entertain man’s volition in any real relationship with God therefore your foundational premise leads you the Allah sort of god.
The One True God of Abraham created beings with choice/free will. He is that secure in Himself. He prefers a true loving relationship as we witness from Jesus Christ.. His yoke is easy and his burden light. He wised ALL to come to Him. We see this interaction and some intervention all throughout the OT.
What is God like? Check out Jesus, Brian
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“Yep, when mere men start insisting on submission to their personal authority, you get things like the judicial murder of Miguel Servetus by John Calvin, the attempted judicial murder of Sebastian Castellio by John Calvin, the general reign of terror (thousands burned at the stake as I understand it) throughout Calvinistic Europe, and the Salem witch trials perpetrated by the Calvinistic Puritans.”
Henry the 8th. Now there is a real “defender of the faith” even Bishops were required to submit to or lose their head. Wives were required to birth sons or lose their head. But he was a “Christian leader” . (snark alert)
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“As for all the people who “have no clue” about Jesus, Good makes it clear that they are still without excuse:
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
”
That makes NO sense in your construct, Brian. They have total depravity and are “unable” UNLESS they were chosen before Adam sinned, remember?
(Talk to a Calvinist long enough and you can pin point the contradictions. Of course they have complicated answers as to why their contradiction about God is true. Religion of confusion, death and chaos. One needs a guru to sort it all out for them….and there is some good money it doing that, I hear)
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A mom, I once read John Cotton’s treatise on why it was ok with God if they wiped out Indian tribes who refused to sell them land. After all, they were building the New Jerusalem.
It totally baffles me why so many people today are idolizing these brutes of old? I am getting such a vibe of dictatorship from not only my government going nanny state but from so many church leaders. Is it the age of narcissism? Only certain people know best for us and we are ignorant idiots who must have our lives micromanaged by someone with a title but we are expected to PAY for being micromanaged to death?
Is this America anymore? Is self determinism dead completely?
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But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? ”
God MADE people for dishonorable use? Are you sure you are not thinking of Allah who requires young men to blow themselves up for His Glory?
You cannot see how the above would make total sense when looking at a Jew/Gentile dichotomy as we see in Romans? The Jewish Christians were astonished that God would simply “graft” the Gentiles in. You are completely ignoring the historical context of Romans and what was happening at the time that led up to this letter being written. You focus on individual election when it is talking about corporate election.
Romans is probably the most dangerous book to proof text because you miss the culminating point.
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Lydia said, “God MADE people for dishonorable use? Are you sure you are not thinking of Allah who requires young men to blow themselves up for His Glory?”
This is exactly it. The question is are we paying attention & thinking about evil being done in the name of “God” and His “Glory”? Are we such blind followers that we don’t see the parallels with Calvinistic theology claiming this is who God is?
It’s like a USDA meat official inspector slapping on a “USDA approved” sticker on an old, rotting hunk of steak. Does the sticker/label itself make the steak edible? Would you buy it because the official said it was fresh according to the “official” USDA handbook? Do both trump the rotting smell, and make it fresh? This is what Calvinism asks you to do. Just look at the “it brings God Glory” label & ignore what glory to God IS in truth & reality. It reminds me of the Emperor’s New Clothes, but we are the Emperor buying the “new clothes”.
Puritans? The Puritans were self-entitled, self-serving, self-protecting, so much that they killed others who didn’t go along with their religion! That is the truth! And they coveted the Indians land & took it from them.
Would you think someone is Godly or just if they came one day to your house & said you had hours to leave? That what was yours is now theirs? Does this behavior bring God’s blessing or curse?
Well, Calvinism says whatever happens, is meant to be.
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And BTW, instead of an old rotting hunk of steak, substitute:
shunning, rape, murder, abuse, etc.
Calvinism: All evil is ordained/allowed/is right & brings Glory to God. AND God will work it for your good.
NOPE. Evil does not bring glory to God. Evil is done by people who chose to do evil. People are not preprogrammed hard-coded computers. God weeps with us & God’s anger is stirred. But God is so powerful God will bring healing & restoration, in this life and/or in eternity.
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“You focus on individual election when it is talking about corporate election.”
And what makes up the corporate entity? Individuals!
The lump God made for dishonorable use…what makes up that lump?
Whatever it is (hint: individual people), it is made for dishonorable use.
And this lump is the same as the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
No, this is not Allah or any other false god…this is Creator God talking about the saved and unsaved in His Word and he is the potter molding all of it.
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“NOPE. Evil does not bring glory to God.”
Disagree. The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
“Evil is done by people who chose to do evil.”
Agree.
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Calvin and Mohammed both resolved the paradox of evil in the same way; by firewalling God’s Sovereignty and God’s Will until God got placed beyond good and evil, only Divine Will. Both Calvin & Mohammed taught Predestination and Submission to God’s Predestined Will. I would expect both Calvinism and Islam to have many similarities, including nature of God and side effects.
And then Entropy sets in and you get More Calvinist than Calvin, More Islamic than Mohammed, More Calvinist/Islamic Than Thou Lukewarm Apostate, Can You Top This?
Translation: “In’shal’lah… Al’lah’u Akbar! Al’lah’u Akbar! Al’lah’u Akbar!”
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And justified it as they were the New Israel settling the promised land. And the Indians? The Canaanites who occupy the Land. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
(Judging from their surviving diaries and journals, Puritans were also prone to morbid introspection, what my church calls “Excessive Scrupulosity” — sin-sniffing themselves as well as others to the point of obsession.)
And justify it as God’s Will, or the reward for their own Godliness. “God Hath given thy house and all thy belongings to Us His Faithful.” (Insert proof-texts from Book of Joshua here.)
IN’SHAL’LAH…
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Anyone remember the interview with the uncle of the Boston Marathon Bombers, where he described his two nephews as “losers”? He related how whenever he took the older/ringleader of the two “losers” to task about anything (“When are you going to Get a Job?” etc), he’d reply with lectures on “AL’LAH, AL’LAH, AL’LAH, ISLAM, ISLAM, ISLAM.”
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“NOPE. Evil does not bring glory to God.”
Disagree. The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
*****************************
What good was produced when my dad would knock me upside the head with his big honkin’ class ring banging into my head causing knots? Help me Brian. I’m just not tracking with you here. Make some sense for me, please.
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Remember that Calvin was a 25-year-old Lawyer who was writing hundreds to thousands of pages on Systematic Theology. From experience with lawyers and fanboys with delusions of grandeur, here are some corollary of the above facts:
1) Law is a realm of Precise, Abstract, Exact Definitions. As in “how many hairs in a beard” or “what the meaning of ‘is’ is”. IRL, one state may shade into the other, but Law requires an exact dividing line and precise definition. Complete black-or-white Boolean thinking.
2) Calvin was 25 and trying to develop a completely-airtight theological system solution for Life, the Universe, and Everything. (One helluva lot more complicated than “42!”, final size half to 2/3 that of Lord of the Rings.) This means heavy involvement in His System, to the point that the sense of “self” becomes one and the same with My System Is Perfect, My System Is Right. You see this a lot in political or intellectual fanboys; it’s similar to a rules lawyer or character-obsessor gamer. And 25-year-olds have less life experience, now and then. Less chance of reality check from that life experience.
“I was so much older then;
I’m younger than that now.”
3) And to an intellectual used to abstraction and precision, it’s real easy to lose sight of people as people and think of them as mere cogs and insignificant details in My Perfect System. IRL, Citizen Robespierre and his revolutionary heirs in the 20th went down this road, and in fiction… Remember Ozymandias in Alan Moore’s The Watchmen?
4) And this Perfect System was Theological. Perfectly-parsed, Ideologically-correct, and dealing with God, the ultimate “42!” This would elevate everything — EVERYTHING — to literally Cosmic Importance.
What sort of system and personality do you think would come out of this mix? Especially when entropy sets in and followers too young to know the founder take his writings and run with it? Darwin said near the end of his life “I am not a Darwinist”; Marx said likewise “I am not a Marxist”; did Calvin ever say “I am not a Calvinist”?
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Julie Anne,
God is not the author of the evil that was done to you. The person who abused you was the author of that evil. The evil he perpetrated went beyond the damage he did to you with his ring. You have described how he ELECTED to do this to you, while he ELECTED not to assault and terrorize his other children. Correct me, but I cannot see how this could not have made you (falsely) believe yourself to be worthless in the eyes of both men and God.
I know I am speaking of your adoptive father, and I do hope that I do not offend, but your father was the very picture of John Calvin’s god, ELECTING to love some, while ELECTING to hate others. While I understand that not all Calvinists would directly ascribe evil to God, it is, nevertheless, the inescapable outworking of their theology that their god is made the author of evil. Given the unavoidable logic (and murderous fruit) of his theology, I am amazed that John Calvin is still taken so seriously by so many after the passage of nearly half a millennium.
You, Julie Anne, are of infinite worth. Our glorious and loving God is the author of your infinite worth. John Calvin’s god does not attain even to the status of worthless pretender.
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“And what makes up the corporate entity? Individuals!”
It is even bigger than that, Brian. The Jews were God’s “chosen” people… does that mean all Jews were saved before Christ? The Gentiles are now part of that ……does that mean all Gentiles are saved?
Yes Chosen but for what?
It is all over the NT. The Jewish Christians had a hard time with the Gentiles just waltzing in without having been under the law. Can you not see that in Romans in the larger context? Trying reading it in a 1st Century historical context instead of the “I am in the exclusive club” mindset” you want to beat others up with.
You guys really have problems with metaphorical language.
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Hug, great comments. It makes total sense when one reads of Calvin’s early training. And yes, he WAS young in terms of coming into so much power his second time around when he demanded it to come back to Geneva. The Genevans were so afraid Catholicism would gain a foothold again but they were not educated on Reformed beliefs. And here this brilliant young lawyer had a systematized theology to use as a template for the New Jerusalem of Geneva. And it was more like living in in a sort of cold bland hell. (It is informative that there is no great art, music or anything of that nature from Geneva in that period of time. Instead of people developing gifts they were informing on each other)
I think of another YRR/Neo Cal leader who was given way too much power to run an institution at a very young age of 33. He fired people twice his age for disagreeing with him.
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“What good was produced when my dad would knock me upside the head with his big honkin’ class ring banging into my head causing knots? Help me Brian. I’m just not tracking with you here. Make some sense for me, please.”
Julie Anne,
Do you think that today you are better equipped or worse equipped to help others because of your past? Would you even have this blog if it weren’t for your past? All things work together for good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose.
Those things don’t just work together for good on their own. God causes all things to work together for their (your) good.
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“It is even bigger than that, Brian. The Jews were God’s “chosen” people… does that mean all Jews were saved before Christ?”
No
“The Gentiles are now part of that ……does that mean all Gentiles are saved?”
No
Who makes up the corporate entity that made for dishonorable use? WHo are the vessel of wrath that God prepared beforehand for destruction?
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Ed,
Do you believe everyone is ultimately saved?
It sounds as if you believe Judas was saved, and yet Jesus said it would have been better if he’d never been born. Judas was called the “Son of perdition” by Jesus himself. And Peter said Judas left them to “go to his own place”.
Do you believe Judas was saved to eternal life? This is very important in helping me understand where you are coming from.
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Julie Anne,
Could you magine your family hating you so much that they wanted to kill you, but instead of doing that they sell you into slavery and tell your parents that you were attacked by a wild animal?
Pretty abusive. And yet, Joseph’s comments to his brothers are these about those evil actions:
“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20)”
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“WHo are the vessel of wrath that God prepared beforehand for destruction?”
Brian, Did you miss the “IF” as in “What IF God….”. in Romans 9:22?
Check it in the interlinear. Do you not understand 1st Century communication? The hyperbole, the making of an argument? The over emphasizing things to make a point?
Read on…
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]
Do you not see the Jew/Gentile dichotomy that is the main theme of Romans? And why on earth would God say “and the one who believes in him” if they cannot unless He forces them to? This sort of thing is all over scripture that contradicts your construct. Jesus’ first sermon was “Repent and believe”. Why tell people that when it has already been chosen who can and who can’t? Bait and switch? A deceptive Messiah? A cruel one telling people to repent and believe when He knows they have not been chosen.
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“Could you magine your family hating you so much that they wanted to kill you, but instead of doing that they sell you into slavery and tell your parents that you were attacked by a wild animal?
Pretty abusive. And yet, Joseph’s comments to his brothers are these about those evil actions:
“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20)”
Brian, Are you suggesting that God sacrifices children to bring about good? That is Molech.
If you want to know what God is like look to Jesus
If you want to know what being human should look like, look to Jesus
Josephs brothers had the free will to do evil. God used it for good to save his people.
Here is something interesting in the story you guys tend to leave out: There is so much sin in that story it is hard to know where to start. We can start with his father who showed favoritism in a cruel way that made his brothers feel unloved. Joseph was a braggert and egged his brothers on. His brothers who were acting out their anger toward him and so on and on and on. God was busy working around all this free will!
He could have saved a lot of time and simply not “determined” the famine. :o)
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BTW: in your determinist God construct of interpreting the story of Joseph. God has to make HIS people, like Jacob, do cruel things to his own children and his less favorite wife to bring about His good. That is a total contradiction. Are you sure you want to take that path?
Because quite frankly, it is becoming very obvious to many that in the Neo Cal movement that is the way it is. That is why I often joke about locking up the children.
I am kinda sorta joking. Because when cruelty happens to children they can say God did it to use it for good.
Contrast that thinking with:
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
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Brian said, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20)”
Brian, This verse is quite simple. Joseph says here that the only party meaning (wanting) evil were his brothers. Joseph goes on to say that God means (wants) good. Joseph did right after he was sold & God used Joseph’s good, right, obedient actions to save people.
Brian, when I see a baseball pitched at the Little League World Series, I can see where it will end up, based on the trajectory. I see it hurling towards the batter & I know it will hit him if he doesn’t move. Does that make me in complete control of the event, whether it will happen or not? Does that mean I determined it to happen, just because I know what might happen? If you said yes, just because I knew what may or will happen, you would be wrong. I have zero control over the ball & players. Does that make me unloving, unkind, evil? No. I can’t control someone else’s actions: not the one pitching, not the one batting. They both decide & are responsible for what they choose to do. AND is the parent of the batter unloving, unkind, evil to let their kid play ball & then they get hit? NO! The parent is not to blame. We’d be right back to preprogrammed hard-coded STERILE computer people. Sound like fun? Sound like living? I want my family to live!
Yet this is the picture you paint of God. God MUST be evil if he allows freedom for his creation. God MUST be unloving if someone chooses wrong. The burden of wrong actions always falls on the individual & NOT on God. NOT the other way around as Calvinists say. God must not be misrepresented.
Brian, as a parent do you exhibit undo control over your kids with fear? Do you hedge them in so they never learn to fear (a healthy not unhealthy fear) for themselves or experience raw joy for themselves? Is that the kind of childhood you had? Kids watching other kids through a window, but never being able to join in?
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Lydia said, “BTW: in your determinist God construct of interpreting the story of Joseph. God has to make HIS people, like Jacob, do cruel things to his own children and his less favorite wife to bring about His good. That is a total contradiction. Are you sure you want to take that path?
Because quite frankly, it is becoming very obvious to many that in the Neo Cal movement that is the way it is. That is why I often joke about locking up the children.
I am kinda sorta joking. Because when cruelty happens to children they can say God did it to use it for good.”
It is NO joke. There are devote practitioners of Calvinist religion. And they are scary.
I would recommend brick & mortar public school before a Reformed Sunday School. Yes, other denom churches may have the same problems. But the Reformed group already teach all sins are the same, everyone is depraved, none can do good, Jesus obeyed the laws so we don’t have to. Hello?
Seriously, I don’t know any public school that proudly states this to parents at orientation. And we’d be shocked to hear a police officer tell that to us as well. But in church, “under preaching authority”, we nod our heads and agree. And some walk out of these church services & do depraved, sinful, evil acts, breaking the law, because they have imputed righteousness of Jesus. Jesus obeyed the law for them so they don’t have to obey ANY moral laws. They are taught all they need is faith, one mental thought alone & they are done, good to go. This teaching seems to sever the conscience, instead of heightening sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.
Please wake up, beloved! Don’t learn the hard way!
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