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ADMIN NOTE: The comments are closed on this thread and a new one has opened here:
It’s Calvinism Free-For-All: Off the Top of Your Head, Part 2
The other record-breaking thread is getting really long with comments and so I thought it might be good to let Brian’s new comment have its own thread since it’s on one topic. I’m doing something I’ve never done before. We’re going to let this post be an open post on Calvinism. Many of the people I cover in abuse stories come from either Calvinist or Neo-Calvinist background. That’s not to say there are not abuse issues within Arminian churches (i.e., Calvary Chapel). I’ve mentioned before that I have friends who are Calvinist who certainly are not abusive. In fact, they defend the oppressed/abused. We have to be careful about those kinds of blanket statements. But there may be some truth to the idea that some doctrines may be a better “breeding” ground for abusive-type leaders.
So, in light of Brian’s comment below, let’s go for it. And okay, I give up . . . go ahead and spell out that “C” word if you want – LOL 🙂
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Ed said: “Don’t call yourself a Calvinist if you don’t support everything about John Calvin.”
Ed, Calvinism and John Calvin are not synonymous, regardless of what you say.
Holding to the tenets of what is commonly called Calvinism does NOT equate to agreeing with everything Calvin did or taught.
I am curious…does anyone on here even know what they are talking about when they use the term “Calvinism”? I’d be interested to see some responses. What is Calvinism? You’ve all been railing against it, so I expect you can describe it without having to look it up. If you have to look it up, then why are you so against something about which you actually do not know the details?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
1 Corinthians13: 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
If I read this chapter correctly, our end goal isn’t to acquire knowledge. And trust me, I am a homeschool Mom & you have no idea how much I value education & knowledge of ALL things, especially Jesus. Knowledge without love is NOTHING.
Our end goal is love. Verse 8 promises that knowledge will PASS AWAY! But love will never pass away. Love is greater than hope. Love is even greater than faith. Do we believe it?
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There are 307 “if/then” statements in the whole bible.
Ed
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“I physically came into this world exactly the person He wanted me to be to accomplish in my life exactly what He wanted me to accomplish.” –
Does this apply to Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot, too?
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http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_toc.htm
You guys ought to read this book. I have read quite a few bios of Calvin and many books on the Reformation and this author really nails it down what happened in Geneva. He is the first author I have seen go into as much depth as he does on Castillio whom Calvin despised and wanted tried as a heretic, too.
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The subtitle is intriguing: THE RIGHT TO HERESY
OR, HOW JOHN CALVIN KILLED A CONSCIENCE
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“Does this apply to Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot, too?”
Bridges did say God ordains everything in His universe.
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Thanks lydiasop. I have it saved to read. I was also peeking a bit into “The God Who Risks” by John Sanders. Worth it at all? You can read select pages on google books.
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Diane, Never heard of the John Saunders book which looks to be the opposite of The Sovereignty of God by Calvinist, AW Pink. Have you read that one? it depressed me to no end. It was oppressive. I came away wondering how God got creation so wrong.
I will check it out. Once the Cals paint any sort non determinism as heresy, people are afraid to read different things. Funny, but I find many of them much more loving in their speech. If we are simply judging by words. Guys like Greg Boyd are considered heretics by many in the Reformed movement. And I don’t agree with all his stuff but I like how he approaches the subject of evil. (In Calvinism it is easy to get God and Satan confused!) But you know, instead of getting a bunch of space in their church to do the typical church growth stuff, they turned it in to a day care for poor kids, food pantry, often times a place for homeless to sleep, job training center for the community, etc.
The only reason I ever heard of Boyd is because Piper thinks he is a heretic. That is like an endorsement to me. Piper has recommended several heretics to me. NT Wright is another. :o)
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I’m reading Brenda’s testimony from the earlier link and am having a lightbulb moment at her response here:
“Thinking back, I realize that “love” was an expendable commodity in those days. While I really “loved” all on one level, on another level I didn’t have to care too deeply about anyone. After all, hadn’t God done the same, loved some and not others? A subtle elitism began to creep into my thinking. A hidden attitude of discrimination and partiality emerged against those who couldn’t ‘ascend to the higher truths’ of God due to His lack of concern about them. Since I had been given perception to know these doctrines of God’s grace, I was secretly indifferent toward the slow and dull of learning. I feigned interest to hide my attitude of false sympathy toward them. If God didn’t care enough to gift them with the capacity to understand, then I didn’t have to concern myself with them either. I reasoned that to care would go against the will of God. “
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Oh, here’s another:
“I thought, ‘to question the motives of God was to place myself above God’. Hence, supposed contradictions were relegated to ‘mystery’ as His ways were beyond finding out. It never occurred to me that this type of election skewed God’s character or that God would ultimately be judging men for His own choice of a cruelty too unfathomable to reason upon. In my mind, God chose to enable some for salvation leaving the rest to be against Him. The ones so cruelly discarded would then be judged by God for their supposed choice. I reasoned the reprobate (those not elected) wouldn’t know the difference anyway. ”
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“The Sovereignty of God by Calvinist, AW Pink. Have you read that one?”
Little bits here and there. It never interested me to read the entire thing.
The Sanders book from the few pages I could read looked good as to speaking to evil and God…. and there is even an application to life chapter!
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jd99NHUHc5UC&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=does+god+ordain+birth+defects&source=bl&ots=S3g7H6636f&sig=qcUxhf90JuHJFP0fQveYYI6xekc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TiYUUquAIYmAygG90YGABw&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=does%20god%20ordain%20birth%20defects&f=false
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The only reason I ever heard of Boyd is because Piper thinks he is a heretic. That is like an endorsement to me. Piper has recommended several heretics to me. NT Wright is another. 😮 )
I have to laugh ~ that’s why I decided to check NT Wright out as well…..I would also be considered a heretic among some of my friends for reading Boyd. What a wild woman I’ve become….
I read Brenda’s story as well and the part subtitled Genuinely Elect? made me see how this doctrine could drive you crazy. What a shame….
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Shannon, thanks for that link. I remember reading that months ago, will have to again.
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As for Greg Boyd, once I read something he said that bothered me, I knew it was safe to keep listening. The last thing I want to do is put anyone other than Jesus up on a pedestal, even though he helps me so much. Todd Friel also calls him a heretic, which is another huge recommendation, in my eyes.
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JA, Not only did you “go there” in talking about one of the forbidden dinner topics of politics and religion, you carried it on through dessert and the next few days’ dinners 😉 I can’t keep up with this thread but from browsing here and there, I’ve learned a thing or too.
Thanks, Jimmydee, for the insight into Arminius. Just like some here have claimed that true Calvinism bears little resemblance to the man, it’s not surprising that the same is true for Arminius. The only things I know about him and that school of thought are what SGM spoon fed us, which is basically that they are foolish and mistaken, and of course wrong. Reading your post brings some pretty intelligent points to the table.
On a side note, I’ve been therapeutically whittling down my hardcore Calvinist book collection. So refreshing to say good bye to some of that nonsense. And yet I find myself wanting to hang on to a few of the few more extreme ones as a reference point for the craziness I came out of. Special ones such as “50 Crucial Questions: An Overview of Central Concerns about Manhood and Womanhood” by Piper and Grudem, and “Evangelistic Calvnisim: Why doctrines of Grace are Good News” by Benton are of among the keepers.
My [notso] favorite quote from the latter, in defense of Limited Atonement: “Since the Lord Jesus died for his own people particularly, the apostle Paul was able to say, ‘The Son of God loved ME and gave himself for ME.’ Christ’s death was designed to redeem not an amorphous mass of humanity in some general way, but his own people individually.” Right, so I’m supposed to feel encouraged that God loves ME specifically but apparently does not love my many friends and family who aren’t saved, because they are simply part of the “amorphous mass.” And that should convince me of God’s great love? Hmmmmm
There is an even muddier, annoying paragraph later in the “L” section I have to include:
“In other words, Christ takes every sinner who trusts in him, all the way across the great chasm of sin and lands them safely on the other, heavenly side. [so far , so good…sounds kinda similar to what nonCalvinists believe to me…]. How vital it is for us to understand this and to remember that saving faith is all about trusting a Person (believe in the Lord Jesus Christ) and not a Proposition (believe that Christ died for you) spoken to men and women.” Woah woah woah..anyone else smell heresy?
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RP said: “JA, Not only did you “go there” in talking about one of the forbidden dinner topics of politics and religion, you carried it on through dessert and the next few days’ dinners I can’t keep up with this thread but from browsing here and there, I’ve learned a thing or too.”
Yea, and I’m not done yet with this thread. I really want to go through it again. It has just gotten me so emotionally whacked and I’m nearly done with the next post which is a shoot off of the topic. Crazy up and down emotional week!
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I can’t see how reading each comment carefully wouldn’t require quite a lot of emotional energy! At first, this topic seemed like beating a dead horse. But from the handful of comments I’ve skimmed, it seems like it’s been helpful in fleshing out what we mean when we use such broad sweeping terms as Calvinism, Reformed, etc. There still is a lot of going round and round in circles, and probably not too much converting of folks to the opposite camps, but at least people are taking time to think about WHY they believe what they do. A few years out of SGM, and I still find that to be a refreshing gift (and sad that I once took for granted the importance of thinking for myself).
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Diane – The Bible, and Calvinism, says that man has free will. Not absolute free will, as God has, and not the kind of free will that can overrule God’s. But free will nevertheless. God takes man’s free will into consideration when he ordains.
Joseph told his brothers that what they did they meant for evil, but God meant it for good. That means that God didn’t force the brothers to be cruel, but allowed them to follow their natural inclinations to be so. Joseph knew this. He could have been bitter towards God for all the suffering he went through, but he wasn’t. He saw that he wouldn’t have had the power to do the good he did if all of that hadn’t happened.
When I said “live your life,” I didn’t mean you personally, I meant all believers, because they have free will and God wants us to use it. He sees the big picture and will take what you do freely and use it toward His end. It’s impossible to know what that end is before we reach it. Even then, we can only speculate.
How God can be sovereign and yet allow us to have free will is a *mystery*. We don’t know how it works, but Scripture says both exist. If we had no free will, we could not be held responsible for anything we do, but we *are* held responsible. If we had absolute free will, we could do anything we wished (like fly, for instance), but we can’t, so we don’t. We are neither robots nor God.
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Jeff Brown,
Thank you for referring me to the excerpts from Institutes, which I read last night. (Well, I read the excerpts, not the entirety of Institutes!) Frankly I just do not know what to make of it all. Neither do I have enough years left to sort it all out.
Probably I will continue to push back at those who would push doctrine of whatever flavor with what I perceive to be an air of intolerant incontestability. They just come across to me as suffering from delusions of their own omniscience, and though it may be to my discredit, I do not receive it well. If my having pushed back on this and the related thread seem somehow to have been directed at you, I apologize. Probably at least some of what I addressed to you, and which should and could have been good healthy debate, crossed over into confrontation. You could not be blamed were you to think it all to have been confrontational.
I would encourage anybody who is still reading this thread to go back and read or reread what you had to say yesterday at 1:52 PM. Your heart, which I dare say you share with Jesus, is with us.
Thank you Jeff.
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Jeff Brown,
It really ticks me off when Calvinists will use the story of Joseph as a means to justify their beliefs.
The story of Joseph is a PROPHESY of Jesus. SATAN is the one who desires evil to occur, not God. Satan is the one who USES people for his evil deeds, in order to THWART God’s plan. God is not the author of what Satan does, but God defeats Satan.
Time and time again the Bible shows to what length that Satan will go to thwart God’s plan. But God comes out victorious every time.
Satan wanted to kill Moses, as Moses is a type of redeemer. Satan wanted to have the seed of Onan spilled so that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah would not be born. Satan wanted to have all the babies killed so that Jesus would not be born. Satan wanted Peter to defend Jesus so that Jesus would not get to that cross.
God did not author Satan’s deeds. Satan’s deeds are authored within Satan.
Joseph was a TYPE AND SHADOW of Jesus who FREE’S people, and those BRETHREN represent the JEWISH NATION that begged that Jesus be crucified on the cross.
God forgave them at the Cross. They will see the one who they pierced, and when they do, they will be loved and accepted, because God has mercy.
THOSE BRETHREN repented for their evil deeds, and Joseph had compassion on them, and hugged them, and accepted them.
That is prophecy of Jesus…not a justification of your doctrine.
Ed
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A Mom – Yes, the Bible says God is Love. It also says He is Compassionate, Eternal, Faithful, Good, Gracious, Holy, Impartial, Just, Merciful, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Patient, Righteous, Self-Existent, Sovereign, Truthful, and Unchangeable.
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Ed – I have never known anyone else who knows the Bible so well and interprets it so poorly.
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Jeff Brown,
“Ed – I have never known anyone else who knows the Bible so well and interprets it so poorly.”
Then you don’t know many Christians. You don’t know many who study prophecy as a hobby.
Google “Joseph is a type of Christ” and you will see that I am NOT THE ONLY ONE who interprets this way.
Calvinists do not look for spiritual things in the Bible. They are too hung up on Carnal things. They love expository preaching, and loath topical preaching.
They do not identify with spiritual words and phrases. All they identify with is OBEY, OBEY, OBEY.
I am sick of that mind set.
Ed
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Gary W – I very much appreciate your words. Thank you.
I apologize for being too harsh concerning what you wrote to Brian (whom I don’t know, btw) about the use of “Jesus,” etc.. If I understood you correctly, I still think you were “reaching,” but I could have avoided the nastiness.
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Ryan – I have some things I could say about “foreknowledge,” but you wouldn’t believe them or like them.
“And by the way, the God of the Holy Scriptures also has the ability to keep the promises he made to national Israel.”
Amen! I’m a Messianic Jew, btw.
I wonder why no one has commented on the one verse I mentioned, Acts 13:48.
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Jeff Brown,
I will answer that.
What came first in the sentence?
1. They were glad and glorified God, or
2. ordained to eternal life?
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Number 1 above shows that they believed, before that part of the sentence that discusses “ordained to eternal life”
They didn’t believe BECAUSE they were ordained to eternal life.
They believed, and were ordained to eternal life.
They glorified God because they believed. Notice that part came FIRST in the sentence.
Do you really think that they would glorify a God that they didn’t believe in?
My best friend is a JEW. He is an authentic Jew. He is a convert to Christianity.
He doesn’t consider himself as “Messianic Jew”, as Messianic Jews differ in his Christian beliefs. He just considers himself a Christian, period.
Ed
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There’s some Facebook action here: https://www.facebook.com/Ligonier/posts/10151841386623115
“Doesn’t the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination override human free will? Watch today on Renewing Your Mind: http://ligm.in/12bgibb89“
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Thanks for trying, Jeff B.
I still think you are answering in a way that does not address my specific question, but that’s ok. I think there is no answer. Well, yes there is an answer. Bridges doesn’t believe what he is teaching…at least in reference to womb ordaining. Nowhere did Bridges insinuate we had the free will to override in the womb ordaining. But I accept you believe that, and so do I. But I really am not asking what others believe.
My question is and always will be…according to how Bridges (certainly not a lightweight and should know what Calvinists believe) stated his statement…is what RIGHT does he have to override God’s ordaining him in the womb and undoing exactly how God made him…which was the way God intended him to be to fulfill the things God had for him to fulfill in his life. Specific congenital birth disabilities question here.
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Jeff Brown, Re: Acts 13:48
Assuming what you are picking up on is the word “appointed,” it is from the Greek τεταγμένοι, tetagmenoi, which Crossway’s handy dandy online ESV Greek Tools feature indicates can mean appoint, devote, or direct. The verb form is a participle (sort of a hybrid verb/noun or verb used as a noun), basically meaning it is most literally translated as ending in “ing,” as in appointing, devoting or directing (if in the present tense). This is all complicated by the fact that the particular form here is also perfect tense (so far so good), but either passive (something a person had acted upon them) or middle (something a persons does to themselves). So, roughly, the translators would have had the option of rendering the verb as being in reference to those having been appointed, devoted or directed (which is how it is translated in ESV), or else they could have rendered the verb as being in reference to those having appointed, devoted or directed THEMSELVES. At least that’s my analysis, which some here could no doubt contest.
Nope. Not enough years left in my life to sort it all out.
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Jeff Brown,
If the harshness you refer to was the assertion that a certain person is giving lawyers a bad name, binary analysis yields 2 possibilities:
1. The assertion was justified.
2. The assertion was a compliment, it being a not-unusual assertion made by those on the receiving end of a particularly effective lawyer.
I will resist the urge to suggest which possibility applies.
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“Yes, the Bible says God is Love. It also says He is Compassionate, Eternal, Faithful, Good, Gracious, Holy, Impartial, Just, Merciful, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Patient, Righteous, Self-Existent, Sovereign, Truthful, and Unchangeable”
It is hard for our Western minds to wrap our heads around how to translate so much of this into one word we call love. But it does not say God loves. But God IS Love. He embodies it so that all other attributes fit that. I also believe God has wrath and is perfectly just. But scripture scripture shows us man chooses God’s wrath by doing evil.
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I want to clarify that it always makes me uncomfortable to suggest reading or listening to some teacher/preacher/theologian. There were a few years I would not share any resources even if I loved them.
I cannot stand the thought I might be promoting or suggesting anyone follow another guru. I am anti guru– big time. I know what really helped me refocus after years of forgetting about my responsiblity before God and the Holy Priesthood was focusing soley on the Gospels for about 3 years along with the OT. And that will help understand Paul better, I think.
Nowadays I think it is backwards when it comes to Paul and Jesus.
So, what was JEsus like? What did He do or not do? etc, etc. Along with the Holy Spirit this is precious reading time.
I am soooooo anti guru! I am done with that world!
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* * * *Mod note: JA moved this comment from the other article.
“For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?” – Esther 4:14
Julie Anne,
I would not wish your experiences on my worst enemy. I will not begin to even pretend to know what that was like.
What I do know, however, is that when things happen to me in my life (and to those I love), I find comfort in knowing that God truly is in control. That nothing takes Him by surprise. That, for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, all things DO work together for good. Because, if He is NOT in control, and if Romans 8:28 is NOT true, then the things I experience, and the things you experience have no ultimate meaning. Without God working all things after the counsel of His will, my experiences are meaningless. And THAT’s terrifying.
The beauty of Scripture is being able to look and see what God has done. To be able to see what has happened to those who loved God, and how He worked all things together for their good. I see Joseph being sold into slavery. Slavery! Losing everything he had. No more family. No more father. Being accused of the awful things he was accused of. Spending all that time in prison. And yet, God blesses him and places him in a position of power second only to Pharaoh. And then to see his brothers come before him years later and hear Jospeh give the real credit where the real credit was due when he said that it was God who sent him to Egypt. That is amazing to think about.
And Job. A wealthy and blessed man. Blessed with possessions, health and, most importantly a wonderful large family. And to have that all taken away. ALL of it! To lose his possessions. To have all of his children killed. To lose his health. To have his friends forsake and blame him for what happened!. To experience the torment of that devastation is something else I could never imagine. But then to hear Job’s own words giving the real credit where the real credit was due. “The lord has given, and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” That’s is amazing!
Or how about a man born blind? He’s been blind since the day he was born. And the disciples ask Jesus the logical question. Jesus, whose sin caused this man to be born blind? And Jesus gives an amazing answer: “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Just those three examples (and there are so many more where those came from) bring me great comfort and hope in knowing that suffering here and now is not for nothing. There is a purpose. We may not know fully what that purpose is yet.
But, I must cling to the truth of Scripture that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose. Without that hope, what happens to use is nothing but sick randomness with no purpose. IF there is anything that falls outside of God’s control, then all hope is lost. Do I understand fully? Not even close. But the alternative is unfathomable, which would be a world where things just happen for no reason. That world, I contend, is much scarier.
Perhaps we, like Esther, have been placed where we are and have endured the things we have endured for such a time as this. Jesus is still on His throne, and God has declared the end from the beginning, things not even yet done. We must trust Him, and put our hope in the living Christ and what He has done to reconcile a people for His own possession through his life and atoning sacrificial death. He is able, and He will surely do it. He must have a plan for everything that happens; otherwise, all hope is lost.
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FOR THE RECORD:
The post above by Julie Anne is from me. I posted it on her most recent blog post in the hopes that it might provide some encouragement and hope. It was NO WAY meant to be a rebuttal of anything she wrote. But the powers that be here have decided my encouragement is not good enough for the other article. So Julie Anne has posted it here to serve as fodder for the Calvinism debate, which was NOT my intent at all.
I was trying to convey my sympathies for Julie Anne’s past and to offer some words of encouragement to her, but apparently my encouragement is good enough to remain with the other comments on the other blog post.
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I’m sorry, Brian, I guess I can’t remove my pic icon. Feel free to copy and paste it if you don’t like my picture next to your name : hahaha 🙂
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“The post above by Julie Anne is from me. I posted it on her most recent blog post in the hopes that it might provide some encouragement and hope. It was NO WAY meant to be a rebuttal of anything she wrote. But the powers that be here have decided my encouragement is not good enough for the other article. So Julie Anne has posted it here to serve as fodder for the Calvinism debate, which was NOT my intent at all.”
How in the world is it comforting to preach what Cavlinists preach (their interpretation of proof texts) that people have no free will except to do things like abuse children AND that God is in full control at the same time. You cannot see the contradiction in your beliefs? How can evildoers be held responsible when they are not chosen NOT to do these evil things? (Never mind the evil doers at SGM were professing believers and in some cases the leaders. And we have a slew of Calvinist gurus who support SGM! What to do with that? Oh, no problem. All sin is the same and we all sin all the time even after Christ’ righteousness is imputed to us)
No, it was not comforting and I think you did what most YRR I am around do, you took an opportunity to promote your doctrine. Your doctrine produces nothing but moral chaos and arrogance issues. It has NO real love. Or “hesed” my favorite word to describe God..
Sometimes Calvinists would be better off keeping their mouths shut for a change.
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Now, THIS is a post for this thread. Read and enjoy:
“These ten points are my personal testimony to the effects of believing in the five points of Calvinism. I have just completed teaching a seminar on this topic and was asked by the class members to post these reflections so they could have access to them. I am happy to do so. They, of course, assume the content of the course, which is available online from Desiring God Ministries, but I will write them here in the hope that they might stir others to search, Berean-like, to see if the Bible teaches what I call “Calvinism.”
1. These truths make me stand in awe of God and lead me into the depth of true God-centered worship.
I recall the time I first saw, while teaching Ephesians at Bethel College in the late ’70′s, the threefold statement of the goal of all God’s work, namely, “to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14).
It has led me to see that we cannot enrich God and that therefore his glory shines most brightly not when we try to meet his needs but when we are satisfied in him as the essence of our deeds. “From him and through him and to him are all things. To him the glory forever” (Romans 11:36). Worship becomes an end in itself.
It has made me feel how low and inadequate are my affections, so that the Psalms of longing come alive and make worship intense.
2. These truths help protect me from trifling with divine things.
One of the curses of our culture is banality, cuteness, cleverness. Television is the main sustainer of our addiction to superficiality and triviality.
God is swept into this. Hence the trifling with divine things.
Earnestness is not excessive in our day. It might have been once. And, yes, there are imbalances in certain people today who don’t seem to be able to relax and talk about the weather.
Robertson Nicole said of Spurgeon, “Evangelism of the humorous type [we might say, church growth of the marketing type] may attract multitudes, but it lays the soul in ashes and destroys the very germs of religion. Mr. Spurgeon is often thought by those who do not know his sermons to have been a humorous preacher. As a matter of fact there was no preacher whose tone was more uniformly earnest, reverent and solemn” (Quoted in The Supremacy of God in Preaching, p. 57).
3. These truths make me marvel at my own salvation.
After laying out the great, God-wrought salvation in Ephesians 1, Paul prays, in the last part of that chapter, that the effect of that theology will be the enlightenment of our hearts so that we marvel at our hope, and at the riches of the glory of our inheritance, and at the power of God at work in us – that is, the power to raise the dead.
Every ground of boasting is removed. Brokenhearted joy and gratitude abound.
The piety of Jonathan Edwards begins to grow. When God has given us a taste of his own majesty and our own wickedness, then the Christian life becomes a thing very different than conventional piety. Edwards describes it beautifully when he says,
The desires of the saints, however earnest, are humble desires: their hope is a humble hope, and their joy, even when it is unspeakable, and full of glory, is humble, brokenhearted joy, and leaves the Christian more poor in spirit, and more like a little child, and more disposed to a universal lowliness of behavior (Religious Affections, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959, pp. 339f).
4. These truths make me alert to man-centered substitutes that pose as good news.
In my book, The Pleasures of God (2000), pp. 144-145, I show that in the 18th century in New England the slide from the sovereignty of God led to Arminianism and thence to universalism and thence to Unitarianism. The same thing happened in England in the 19thcentury after Spurgeon.
Iain Murray’s Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1987), p. 454, documents the same thing: “Calvinistic convictions waned in North America. In the progress of the decline which Edwards had rightly anticipated, those Congregational churches of New England which had embraced Arminianism after the Great Awakening gradually moved into Unitarianism and universalism, led by Charles Chauncy.”
You can also read in J. I. Packer’s Quest for Godliness (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1990), p. 160, how Richard Baxter forsook these teachings and how the following generations reaped a grim harvest in the Baxter church in Kidderminster.
These doctrines are a bulwark against man-centered teachings in many forms that gradually corrupt the church and make her weak from the inside, all the while looking strong or popular.
1 Timothy 3:15, “The church of the living God [is] the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”
5. These truths make me groan over the indescribable disease of our secular, God-belittling culture.
I can hardly read the newspaper or look at a TV ad or a billboard without feeling the burden that God is missing.
When God is the main reality in the universe and is treated as a non-reality, I tremble at the wrath that is being stored up. I am able to be shocked. So many Christians are sedated with the same drug as the world. But these teachings are a great antidote.
And I pray for awakening and revival.
And I try to preach to create a people that are so God-saturated that they will show and tell God everywhere and all the time.
We exist to reassert the reality of God and the supremacy of God in all of life.
6. These truths make me confident that the work which God planned and began, he will finish – both globally and personally.
This is the point of Romans 8:28-39.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. These truths make me see everything in the light of God’s sovereign purposes – that from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be glory forever and ever.
All of life relates to God. There’s no compartment where he is not all-important and the one who gives meaning to everything. 1 Corinthians 10:31.
Seeing God’s sovereign purpose worked out in Scripture, and hearing Paul say that “he accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11) makes me see the world this way.
8. These truths make me hopeful that God has the will, the right, and the power to answer prayer that people be changed.
The warrant for prayer is that God may break in and change things – including the human heart. He can turn the will around. “Hallowed be thy name” means: cause people to hallow your name. “May your word run and be glorified” means: cause hearts to be opened to the gospel.
We should take the New Covenant promises and plead with God to bring them to pass in our children and in our neighbors and among all the mission fields of the world.
“God, take out of their flesh the heart of stone and give him a new heart of flesh” (Ezekiel 11:19).
“Lord, circumcise their hearts so that they love you” (Deuteronomy 30:6).
“Father, put your spirit within them and cause them to walk in Your statutes” (Ezekiel 36:27).
“Lord, grant them repentance and the knowledge of the truth that they may escape from the snare of the devil” (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
“Father, open their hearts so that they believe the gospel” (Acts 16:14).
9. These truths reminds me that evangelism is absolutely essential for people to come to Christ and be saved, and that there is great hope for success in leading people to faith, but that conversion is not finally dependent on me or limited by the hardness of the unbeliever.
So it gives hope to evangelism, especially in the hard places and among the hard peoples.
John 10:16, “I have other sheep that are not of this fold, I must bring them also. They will heed my voice.”
It is God’s work. Throw yourself into it with abandon.
10. These truths make me sure that God will triumph in the end.
Isaiah 46:9-10, “I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My counsel shall stand that I will accomplish all my purpose’”
Putting them altogether: God gets the glory and we get the joy.
John Piper”
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Brian,
I, for the life of me, can’t figure out why you don’t get it. Well, actually that isn’t true. I do know why you don’t get it. The God of Calvin has yet to teach Calvinists about empathy, and compassion from a deep deep emotion from the pit of the heart. To Calvinists, “it’s just life as God orchestrated it…get over it, move on!”
Praise God that abuse happened, cuz he did it for your own good, cuz he gets the glory from it?
Yes, your comment on the other thread was defending the God of Calvin, using the same ole Calvin talking point verses that are always used to justify the abusive nature of Calvin’s doctrines. Was that supposed to make anyone feel good?
NORMAL Christians who are outside of Calvinism do NOT see those verses in the same way that Calvinists do.
Where is empathy taught in Calvinism?
I think I need to conclude that Calvinism is not about empathy, or compassion, because if what you were saying on the other thread was about compassion, you sure did a poor job at it. God is in control of the abuse? Not my God.
Ed
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Brian,
I understand that you weren’t intending to add to the debate on this thread. I simply moved your comment to moderation temporarily for Julie Anne to read and consider what to do with it. I’m sorry if I didn’t explain that clearly enough, but that was no reason for you to start acting petulant about it. Julie Anne and I are working on another online resource right now, and I really didn’t need to stop my work to deal with your childishness.
You have your own blog and run it the way you please in regards to moderating the comments, but you won’t allow another blog to do the same with theirs?
Again, get over yourself.
Fiat Pax
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Piper? Many years ago some family members of mine went to work/study with him after Wheaton. We did not recognize them when they came back. hateful, arrogant, no one knew the true gospel but them, etc, etc.
That is when I decided to check him out. The man is a nutcase from Christian Hedonism to the Scream of the Damned. He is a false teacher with his Sovereignty ONLY issues who does not seem to understand Jesus Christ the LOWLY Nazarene carpenter who was God in the flesh. I could go on for hours about the verbose flowery silliness that is Piper. Don’t fall for his shock jock stuff. If he had to remove all the verbs, adverbs and adjectives from his arm waving passion, there would be nothing left.
Even some Reformed thought his Geneva vid where he is going to be the 21st Century John Calvin global apostle over the top. You gotta wonder how much it cost DG donors to fly him there to make a vid about his jet setting retirement. Some thought after his seashell in retirement preaching he would go to darkest Africa. Thing is, they never really understood him. The man craves a stage and audience.
Run.
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Brian, did you read about the gruesome suicides of some Edwards was discipling from his church? I mean they were gruesome. Tragic how having people continually make dates with Satan can turn out.
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Brian, Can you explain why the great Piper who commands huge audiences flew to Louisville to preach at the SGM motel church which has about 30 people attending? They used to meet at my daughters school but that school has zero tolerance for child molesters and asked them to leave. Why would Piper make a big deal of going there and saying he totally supports CJ Mahaney. Is he not appalled at protecting child molesters and telling the young victims they are just as big of sinners as the molesters?
Methinks you need gurus who at least have integrity and character.
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In Romans 3, Paul condemns the idea of doing evil to enhance the truth or glory of God, of doing evil so that “good may come of it.”
“NORMAL Christians who are outside of Calvinism do NOT see those verses in the same way that Calvinists do.”
Neither do weirdos like me. For example, “He was born blind so that” is not in the original Greek of that verse concerning the blind man. “Let the works of God be revealed in him” is all it says. There is no implication whatsoever that God intended the man to be born blind.
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Brian, I’ve heard you recommend Voddie Baucham on your website via providing a link to his website. Do you agree with Voddie’s advice to “wear out” children when they disobey?
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Hey Fiat,
The only one being childish is you, when you tell someone to “get over yourself”.
Yes, we know you have the power here…I bet it feels good, doesn’t it!
The irony is you are doing the things I have seen Julie Anne and others on here deride other blogs for doing. That’s being duplicitous, my moderator friend.
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“Do you agree with Voddie’s advice to “wear out” children when they disobey?”
Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out”.
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I vote to wear out Brian. He deserves it.
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Wow, what a hypocrite you are, Brian.
You threw a hissy fit like a schoolgirl for a temporary action when you would have been better served by waiting five minutes for an explanation from Julie Anne.
I’ll err on the side of caution for Julie Anne and her blog every time, Brian. I really couldn’t care less about having power here, but if it causes you to get your drawers in such a wad, you’re welcome to leave.
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Brian said: “Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out.”
Why, Brian? Do you deserve a good “wearing out?”
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I have often said that if Piper went to work every day and was treated how he recommends wives be treated (to take abuse for a season) he would be outraged. How would he handle being smacked around by a boss just because he was there and an easy target? I doubt he would put up with it.
Same with children and Voddie. (Who does not seem to mind wearing his sick wife out either and what choice does she have if the money is to come in from his teaching?)
Brian, If you must have gurus, which it seems you do, you need some gurus who don’t have such power issues. They come off as insecure petty men who need to lord it over those they think are “under” them, to feel big. They are not good influencers for you, Brian. At least choose some with integrity and character.
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Brian said: “Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out.”
Thanks for FINALLY answering my question, Brian. I’ve answered your question on 8/20 @ 7:40PM below as promised.
First, I want to retract a comment on JA’s 8/23 post. I thanked you for your 6:54PM comment on 2Cor1:3-5. After I sent the comment, I had a nagging feeling I made a mistake. I chose to think through it & what you said was not consistent with your actions on this blog. You haven’t indicated a change of heart or theology. And I must go by actions. Your comments have been mostly painful to those who have suffered abuse. I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I’ve changed my mind about that. Or that since you provided a kind Bible verse, you or anyone else can continue to say hurtful things & that I will be fooled or start to overlook your hurtful messages. As a matter of fact, it makes me trust you even less, because you say many hurtful things in the name of God but try to appear nice while doing it. That’s just my opinion, to take or leave. I won’t pretend a porcupine is soft & cuddly, let’s put it that way.
Fiat Pax/JA, Sorry. I made a mistake & I admit it. Can you take this out of my 8/23 7:41PM comment on the 8/23 post, “Brian, Your 6:54PM comment providing 2 Cor. 1:3-5 is helpful & appreciated. Thanks for that. If we are in Christ Jesus, we will comfort each other. ”
Can you replace it with, “Brian, While your 6:54PM comment seems kind, it is inconsistent with many of your hurtful comments on this blog. I don’t buy it. If you’ve had a change of heart about your previous comments let us know.”
I don’t want anyone to misunderstand my views on Brian’s position.
Brian, You said, “Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out”. In case it’s not crystal clear already, I completely disagree. Brian, you are NOT a safe person. I hope you are not “wearing out” your own kids. Even if you aren’t wearing your own kids out, what you said causes damage on anyone whom you have influence with. This isn’t funny. Think through this. I will be praying for you.
Brian said, “A Mom, If a child or family member was rebelling against God, would you pray, “Lord, please do not do anything to my child’s heart…please do not open his eyes to the truth…let him figure it out on his own.”?”
Brian, good question. If someone I knew or loved was rebelling against God, I would not pray for God to change them or their heart, as if they are robots or as if God was ultimately responsible for their actions. If you pray this with your children they may think God doesn’t love them because He’s not changing them & they will give up altogether. Or they may think because God hasn’t changed them yet is not their fault. They will see themselves as blameless, if you’ve taught them to think logically.
There was a time I did pray that. But after praying the Lord’s prayer each night, “may Your kingdom come, may Your will be done”, I thought to myself, “If God was in total control, why would Jesus command we pray that? May His will be done doesn’t sound like it’s set in stone to me. It’s obvious His will is done through us. That’s why what we do & choose matters so much. What we do IS important. When I pray for an individual who is rebelling against God, I pray THEY will chose life, that THEY would chose right, that THEY would seek God, that THEY would choose to love others. But I don’t stop at prayer. Because I have a choice too, I am OBLIGATED to talk to them about Jesus, about right & wrong, about consequences, about life & death, about how to love themselves & others. BTW, I also pray I will utilize wisdom, the Bible, conscience, God’s truth, co-labor with the Holy Spirit. I felt helpless before, but I am seeing that I have a responsibility to God & others, & that is quite freeing. I am free to do as much right as I can. I hope this makes sense to you in some way. That this doesn’t scare you. That you would think about it.
JA note: Made the requested corrections.
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“Brian, good question. If someone I knew or loved was rebelling against God, I would not pray for God to change them or their heart, as if they are robots or as if God was ultimately responsible for their actions. If you pray this with your children they may think God doesn’t love them because He’s not changing them & they will give up altogether. Or they may think because God hasn’t changed them yet is not their fault. They will see themselves as blameless, if you’ve taught them to think logically.”
Amen, A mom! And the fruit of that sort of thinking is rotten. I am seeing it everywhere. Hey, us sinners sin. It’s not our fault. Or worse, a child has an abusive parent and is taught this method at church. So God does not change them? What does that teach them? God is not listening. Or, God does not like them for some reason. And, The abusive parent is not responsible for their behavior.
Let us instead do as you have explained above. Teach them their responsibility as believers and DOERS of Christ. That we are all responsible for our behavior and choices. They are NOT helpless as God gives wisdom to those who ask.
There is nothing logical about Calvinism. It is the most byzantine and contradictory set of beliefs in the world. It is half Islam and half Christian. Chrislam
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Brian,
Would it be right to blame one child for the bad actions of another? Would you say yes because the Bible says so & that we can’t know why because it’s a mystery? Can we back it up by saying His ways are higher than ours? How much worse to blame God!
If children are sinners in the womb, and sin because they are sinners (& not the other way around) & were created by God that way, how can you rightly punish them? How can you rightly punish them when what they are doing is what God created them to do?
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“Because, if He is NOT in control, and if Romans 8:28 is NOT true, then the things I experience, and the things you experience have no ultimate meaning. Without God working all things after the counsel of His will, my experiences are meaningless. And THAT’s terrifying.”
Apart from the fact that I believe you are misapplying that verse, taking it out of context…the concept of a meaningless experience being terrifying really confuses me. Especially if you agree that God can bring good after the fact, or in spite of the evil. You seem to be saying that what you really find terrifying is the concept of evil itself, the idea that evil is truly evil and not good – that it happens. That it exists.
Every decent human being understands that there is never a so-called “good reason” for anyone to abuse a child. To say there is an “ultimate meaning” behind every instance of abuse is to say that it was good for it to happen, that there is “good” in the evil – that the evil is not completely evil. Evil is called good.
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Brian, yesterday at 7:25 PM:
“Now, THIS is a post for this thread. Read and enjoy:”
After which Brian insolently (in my opinion) presumes to deposit almost 50 paragraphs, some 1700 words, of John Piper’s pure, unadulterated BS. Yes, I am referring to male flavored bovine scat. No, the cherry picked Scripture quoted by Piper is not in and of itself BS, but Piper’s penchant for proof texting is at best disingenuous, and at worst, maybe, intellectually dishonest (again, my opinion). I perceive Piper’s founding of every pronouncement, every understanding, every false insight on God’s supposed passion for His own glory–ignoring the fact that God is Love–as verging on blasphemy.
Brian, if you can show me where Piper goes on at any length to reveal God as love, I might be willing to listen/read, but only if Piper manages to do it in a way such that God’s supposed passion for His own glory is transcended by and made utterly subordinate to the fact that He is love. I MIGHT (or might not) be able to receive what Piper has to say about God as love. I will not receive one word, one letter, one jot, one tittle of anything Piper has to say based on the presupposition that our God is some sort of transcendent narcissist.
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From JA:
Brian said: “Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out.”
Why, Brian? Do you deserve a good “wearing out?”
My response:
The key word in my answer is “sometimes”.
And yes…I deserve a good wearing out all the time!
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@ Brian….
Here is something for you. I think it will help…
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“And yes…I deserve a good wearing out all the time!”
Wow…you’re that bad? All the time?
Better get saved, then.
Oh, I forgot…you guys think you are still as bad as you were before God gave you a new heart. My bad.
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Brian said~
“Yes, we know you have the power here…I bet it feels good, doesn’t it!”
Does it “feel good” to have that power at your blog?
My comment is in limbo there…sitting lonely all by its lonesome self in modville….
My comment is being shunned. (Sorry JA. lol)
Here it is at Brian’s blog-
“A Call for Reasoned Discernment
Posted: August 11, 2013 in Accountability, Beliefs, Church Membership, Submission, Uncategorized
I have a waded in without a flotation device. We’ll see if I make it back.
Yes, I was asked to write a guest post on Julie Anne’s blog known as Spiritual Sounding Board. The topic relates to submission to church authority and how we make judgments on people before we really know or understand who they are. Julie is a survivor of past spiritual abuse, and dedicates her blog to pretty much all things church authority related. I am thankful to her for allowing me to publish an article on her site.
Check my post and the resulting comments HERE.
Comments
Born4Battle says:
August 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm
I think your piece posted at Spiritual Sounding Board was spot on. What I found sad while I was trying to speak to Biblical authority in the church and in the home (various blog posts there), was the atmosphere of resistance (if not rebellion) against all forms of authority. I experienced much the same thing you did in the exchange of Tweets. I can only pray that some would take seriously what you had to say about authority.
Lydia Thomas says:
August 12, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Reblogged this on thoughts about my wilderness journey and commented:
“Simply put, bad experiences do not negate the truth of God’s Word.”
Truth!
Diane says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 12, 2013 at 9:42 pm
@Born4Battle
“What I found sad while I was trying to speak to Biblical authority in the church and in the home (various blog posts there), was the atmosphere of resistance (if not rebellion) against all forms of authority.”
Gosh Born…..what I personally found sad was that you got banned from SSB for your abusive commenting practices. I also found it sad you rarely answered my questions directed toward you.
Why was that?
Oh well…blessings anyway to you!
Born4Battle says:
August 13, 2013 at 5:01 am
The comments over there are up to 222, and seem to be against a LOT of things, which is true to form. Please pray for those folks. I tried a short comment again and appear to still be banned. I applied a large amount of scripture to several of the blogs and it didn’t go well.”
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@ lydiasop~
“Same with children and Voddie. (Who does not seem to mind wearing his sick wife out either and what choice does she have if the money is to come in from his teaching?)”
Doesn’t his daughter Jasmine do most of the homeschooling and care? I get that impression from her blog. He doesn’t seem to mind adding more kids to Jasmine.
How can he possibly let her go and get married when she is so busy taking care of her siblings? Isn’t she rather needed at home? Makes me sick thinking about it.
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Brian says ““Sometimes children deserve a good “wearing out.”
Brian, you appear to emulate the monster you have made your god out to be. When Baucham was taken to task on this blog for appearing to advocate wearing children out, the defense was that he was speaking hyperbolically. You appear to be accepting his supposed hyperbole at face value.
Brian, I fear for your children more than I fear for you. Regardless, in your own best interest, if you really do practice wearing your children out, whether physically or verbally, as a means of discipline, I recommend that you turn yourself in to child protective services. It will go better for you if you do so than if you wait for somebody else to do it.
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“When Baucham was taken to task on this blog for appearing to advocate wearing children out, the defense was that he was speaking hyperbolically.”
hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.” (Freedictionary)
What is the purpose for the “leather strap thingys” (Baucham’s words) that they have in Baucham’s own church (that they either sell or hand out to parents) if not for literally wearing them out?
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“When people worship a god who is a glorified bully, they become bullies themselves. Why does this surprise us?” – Johnathan Martin
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Brian, where do you see a biblical precedent for “wearing people out?” I’m not talking about people’s bad choices wearing themselves out, but where God/Jesus wears someone out as a method of discipline?
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Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine
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Diane – – I’m sick watching that video. I was raised Catholic where there is a lot of worshipping of the pope in traditional ceremony in how they reverence the position “pope.” This was disgusting. In this song, CJ is the focus of worship. And the fact that he gets so emotional he loses pitch at least twice. Sick. The man who wrote the book on humility trained his people to adore and worship himself, not Jesus.
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That’s right – – the first time getting saved didn’t work. It must have had an expiration date or something.
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@ JA~
I was raised RC too, I am no longer one.
I hope this song cheers Brian up a bit for the “mistreatment” he received on this blog. roflol
He was, after all, a “huge supporter” of SGM’s music….as you probably recall. 🙂
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Diane said: “I hope this song cheers Brian up a bit for the “mistreatment” he received on this blog. roflol
He was, after all, a “huge supporter” of SGM’s music….as you probably recall. ”
Well, the tears and all – – if it hadn’t been for CJ, none of them would have found the cross and all that sin that they need to keep getting re-saved again. But wait a minute – – – I thought God is Sovereign and He is the one who elects not man, so why so much hero worship? Didn’t God draw them to Himself? Why are they giving CJ so much credit when it goes against their own doctrinal belief system?
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Julie Anne said, “This was disgusting. In this song, CJ is the focus of worship.”
I found this song down right disgusting as well. Hearing that would have been my last time at that church. Actually I would have left at that time and never returned. Seems to me the Bible talks about a king that accepted the praise that was due to God only. CJ may find himself out in the field somewhere eating grass like the king of old. Excuse me while I go and puke.
Jim
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“Wow…you’re that bad? All the time?
Better get saved, then.
Oh, I forgot…you guys think you are still as bad as you were before God gave you a new heart. My bad.”
One of the dirty little secrets of Calvinism is that they believe that Christians remain totally depraved after conversion. Now that is totally unorthodox. When a person exercises faith (which is not a meritorious work), and then subsequently becomes regenerate, that person receives the Holy Spirit. They are justified completely and declared righteous, and the blood atonement which is available to all is then applied to that person. The past, present and future sins of that person are all forgiven.
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The reactions to my very brief words on here about “wearing out” my kids kind of proves one of the points in my original article that started all of this. In that article I said:
“One of the main mistakes we can make (especially those of us who have experienced abusive practices firsthand from church leaders) is that, going forward, we fail to give others the benefit of the doubt.”
“Another common mistake we tend to make is that we will attack and judge and critique something based upon what someone has written rather than how what has been written actually gets fleshed out in real life.”
Based upon a breif answer to a question, people are now concerned for the welfare of my kids and suggesting I turn myself in to child services. In addition to being silly responses, they show that wholesale judgments are being mase based upon a one or two-sentence answer. People responding in that manner are thinking the worst of people like me (and Voddie Baucham and others), when they have NO clue what they are talking about.
They know nothing of my family and children’s home life. They are speaking from a position of ignorance (that’s not an insult if you understand what it means to be ignorant of something).
The REAL irony is that the commenters on this blog rail against all things relating to Reformed Theology, calling it and the people involved evil, when that is EXACTLY what they themselves are doing against people like Voddie Baucham, John Piper, etc., etc, etc…
And, by the way, regarding wearing kids out, I was speaking in hyperbole as well, though you guys will probably not believe me and will continue to spit venom at the caricature you made yourselves.
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“When a person exercises faith (which is not a meritorious work), and then subsequently becomes regenerate, that person receives the Holy Spirit. They are justified completely and declared righteous, and the blood atonement which is available to all is then applied to that person. The past, present and future sins of that person are all forgiven.”
I agree completely, Ryan.
And yet, while there is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, we still war against the flesh. We are not completely delivered from its bondage until we are glorified. We are, as Luther described, both sinners AND justified saints at the same time.
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“And, by the way, regarding wearing kids out, I was speaking in hyperbole as well, though you guys will probably not believe me and will continue to spit venom at the caricature you made yourselves.”
giggle…I don’t know about that, Brian….I tend to think you were serious. Why make the statement if you weren’t? Why no smiley face indicating you were not serious and merely exaggerating? But it’s a nice try to undo what you wrote. Hey…guys….I was only kidding!!!! Really!!! I was!!!
Now–seriously, that statement reminds me of the response you gave to me FINALLY after days of inquiry and repeated questions about just what exactly you were a “huge supporter” of regarding SGM…and you said,…um…the music. I think you are a player and you are playing us a nice little song here….an SGM one even!
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By the way, there is an AWESOME book on parenting by grace. It is “Give them Grace: Dazzling Your Kids with the Love of Jesus” by Elyse Fitzpatrick. Many of you may benefit from it. http://www.amazon.com/Give-Them-Grace-Dazzling-Jesus/dp/1433520095/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377366794&sr=8-1&keywords=give+them+grace
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Thanks, Diane, for proving my point even further about not giving people the benefit of the doubt. As I’ve said before, haters gonna hate, no matter what they are presented with that is true.
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Oh, and here’s another incredible resource on the grace of God through Jesus, and how it is His grace that trumps everything else. It’s called “Jeus + Nothing = Everything”: http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Nothing-Everything-Tullian-Tchividjian/dp/1433507781/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377367109&sr=8-1&keywords=jesus+plus+nothing+equals+everything
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“People responding in that manner are thinking the worst of people like me (and Voddie Baucham and others), when they have NO clue what they are talking about.”
Ok, Brian.
Tell me in detail (since I seemingly do not know what I am talking about) exactly what Baucham means by “wearing them out”, his views on physical discipline, what he means by “first time every time” obedience and what he means by spanking the shyness out of a toddler. Oh and what the “leather strap thingys” that he carries on his person are for if “wear them out” is hyperbole.
I’ll be awaitin’ for your reply.
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Brian,
You had said:
“The REAL irony is that the commenters on this blog rail against all things relating to Reformed Theology”
Doesn’t the word “reform” indicate “REASONS WHY I AM NOT A CATHOLIC”, instead of “REASON WHY I AM A CHRISTIAN”?
Reform was based on defecting from Catholicism. Are you people still in the defecting mode, or was reform completed some 400 years ago?
Why do you still call it REFORM? Are you still REFORMING?
Ed
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Hi SSB,
The doctrine of our salvation is truly a life or death issue, and its proper explication is something I have given much of my life to. However, for lack of time I made a decision from the outset not to participate in this thread. Though I did just now spend the last two hours reading and scanning the comments. I appreciated much of the back and forth, and the fairly decent spirit of engagement.
With that said, I’d like to spend the rest of my comment echoing something from Jeff S that sincerely resonates with me (bold emphasis mine). Excerpted from the front end of his August 20, 2013 @ 9:16 PM comment:
Well, that’s how I identify myself (as a Christian). But I DO think that my belief in how salvation works is important. As much as I am accepting of differing viewpoints, it’s a huge part of my theology and affects a lot of the way I think about things. it enhances my worship and makes my Christian walk so much more full of life. I don’t think it would be right for me to not talk about my closely held beliefs, even if I hold them with an open hand. And I sure don’t enjoy it when others malign my beliefs, especially when they describe them in a way that I don’t believe, and no one I know believes.
Here’s a different way of putting it. My views about the doctrine of Grace (as I will call it for the moment) bring me life. They enhance my worship and cause my walk with God to be closer. This is true for numerous people in my life with similar beliefs. Then I visit this site or TWW and I see people misconstruing those beliefs and knocking them down, blaming them for abuse. I’m not blaming your or Deb and Dee for this- it’s just the way it is. But surely you can understand why this would be disconcerting to me, especially when I have such a heart for abuse survivors? The very thing that brings me life is being condemned as the problem. And the worst part is, the life giving theology I have is being rejected by arguing a version of it that I don’t believe. It’s maddening and painful to read.
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“Thanks, Diane, for proving my point even further about not giving people the benefit of the doubt. As I’ve said before, haters gonna hate, no matter what they are presented with that is true.”
Oh…now…I think you are a little miffed at me because I am on to you. Maybe you could reflect and think about whether you are being completely transparent with us.
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Even if speaking hyperbolically or jokingly, it simply is not acceptable for any Christian to speak approvingly of what, on its face, amounts to child abuse.
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Oh…and in case you were thinking of this blog when you tweeted this:
“Brian Thornton @fivesolasguy 16h
It saddens me to see so many professing Xians who’ve suffered bad experiences direct their energies in such wrong/anti-Jesus directions.”
There’s no wrong/anti-Jesus direction going here on that I can see. But maybe you were not thinking about this blog and had something else in mind.
Benefit of the doubt. 🙂
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Brian said:
“And yet, while there is now no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, we still war against the flesh. We are not completely delivered from its bondage until we are glorified. We are, as Luther described, both sinners AND justified saints at the same time.”
My response:
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
DOES NOT AND CANNOT. RIGHTEOUSNESS MUST BE “DONE” BY YOU.
1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Ed
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Anti-Calvinism is Anti-Jesus? Is that to say that those who do not believe in Calvinism is an anti-Christ? Then we must be of the devil, then, huh Brian?
Ed
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Brian claims to be speaking hyperbolically of wearing children out. I will give him this much credit. He does not go so far as Baucham, who speaks (hyperbolically?) of an “all-day session where you just wear them out,” apparently in the interests of achieving first time, every time obedience.
I am just now getting into Stefan Zweig’s “The Right to Heresy,” but it appears that John Calvin also demanded unquestioning obedience to his absolute authority. So, I dare say, did Adolph Hitler, along with every other tyrant gracing the pages of history.
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Brian seems more hot in defending his brand of doctrine than Jesus. I keep saying Jesus. He keeps saying we have it wrong.
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“And yes…I deserve a good wearing out all the time!”
Hey, now, what a married couple does is their own business. You might be better off discussing that stuff over at Rachel Held Evans’ blog. 😀
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Lol, Eric.
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Gosh…not seeing Jesus in this brand of discipline at all. Baucham is gonna stand there and make ’em. (Another parent’s child, I might add.) Who knew there was so much sin sin sin going on just because a child is shy.
Brian, would you let Baucham make your child obey by standing there until you did?
“THE SELFISH SIN OF SHYNESS
Let me give you an example, a prime example. The so-called shy kid, who doesn’t shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, ya’ know and here I am, I’m the guest and I walk up and I’m saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid “Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,” and the kid hides and runs behind the leg and here’s what’s supposed to happen. This is what we have agreed upon, silently in our culture. What’s supposed to happen is that, I’m supposed to look at their child and say, “Hey, that’s okay.” But I can’t do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is that number one, the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it’s in direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and thirdly, I am in sin because I have just told a child it’s okay to disobey and dishonor their parent in direct violation of scripture. I can’t do that, I won’t do that.
I’m gonna stand there until you make ‘em do what you said.”
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/crosspost-voddie-baucham-shy-kids-and-spanking-5-times-before-breakfast/
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“Ok, Brian.
Tell me in detail (since I seemingly do not know what I am talking about) exactly what Baucham means by “wearing them out”, his views on physical discipline, what he means by “first time every time” obedience and what he means by spanking the shyness out of a toddler. Oh and what the “leather strap thingys” that he carries on his person are for if “wear them out” is hyperbole.
I’ll be awaitin’ for your reply.”
You’ll be waiting a long time, Diane. I’m not going to attempt to convey what Voddie means by all those things.
Sounds like you are more focused on being anti-Voddie than being pro-Jesus.
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“Oh…now…I think you are a little miffed at me because I am on to you. Maybe you could reflect and think about whether you are being completely transparent with us.”
No one on here is being “completely transparent” with us. This is a blog via electronic media. I would propose it is impossible to be completely transparent on here. We only see what others want us to see of them on here.
As Spurgeon has said: “Don’t get too upset when others thing bad of you, for you are actually much worse than they think you to be.”
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Brian, it’s probably hard for you to consider that such heavy-handed parenting may push kids away from Jesus because of what I mentioned in my recent post of how the correlation with earthly father and Heavenly Father line up in a child’s mind. But that thought may be rubbish to you because you don’t believe anyone chooses God.
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Ed,
Surely you are not suggesting that John is saying we never sin after salvation. This is where I think a version like the ESV conveys more accurately what John is saying:
“Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:4-10 ESV)
This lines up with Hebrews where it is stated that those who go on sinning wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth are not actually saved.
Also, elsewhere John admits that we do sin after salvation:
“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” – 1 John 2:1
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“Brian, it’s probably hard for you to consider that such heavy-handed parenting may push kids away from Jesus because of what I mentioned in my recent post of how the correlation with earthly father and Heavenly Father line up in a child’s mind. But that thought may be rubbish to you because you don’t believe anyone chooses God.”
JA, are you familiar at all with E. Fitzpatrick’s book that I linked to above? I would hope you would take the time to read it to get an idea of how I try to raise my children. I think you will be very surprised at what you read. It was can known as grace-based parenting, not law-based. Contrary to what and so many on here think, many of us have embraced God’s grace in our lives and try to live according to it, including in our parenting.
I realy do think you would enjoy and benefit from Elyse’s book.
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“Why do you still call it REFORM? Are you still REFORMING?”
Yes, yes and yes! ALWAYS reforming.
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“You’ll be waiting a long time, Diane. I’m not going to attempt to convey what Voddie means by all those things.”
Of course not. Yet you promote/link to him on your blog so people may be exposed to this and maybe even try it. I could never do that but hey…that’s just me.
“Sounds like you are more focused on being anti-Voddie than being pro-Jesus.”
You need to give me the benefit of the doubt, Brian.
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” We only see what others want us to see of them on here.’
Only? No…I bet lots of people on here can see through what others want them to see of them.
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“Sounds like you are more focused on being anti-Voddie than being pro-Jesus.”
It sounds like you’re more focused on being anti-Calvinism-critics than being pro-Jesus, so what’s your point?
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“you don’t believe anyone chooses God”
Not true. I believe that EVERYONE born from above chooses God (and by that term I mean repents and believes the gospel of Jesus Christ). I believe everyone born OF God chooses God. I believe everyone given by the Father to the Son chooses God. I believe everyone of Jesus’ sheep chooses God. I believe everyone appointed to eternal life chooses God. I believe everyone in whom God has removed the heart of stone and replaced with a heart of flesh chooses God. I believe everyone made alive by grace chooses God.
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