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ADMIN NOTE: The comments are closed on this thread and a new one has opened here:
It’s Calvinism Free-For-All: Off the Top of Your Head, Part 2
The other record-breaking thread is getting really long with comments and so I thought it might be good to let Brian’s new comment have its own thread since it’s on one topic. I’m doing something I’ve never done before. We’re going to let this post be an open post on Calvinism. Many of the people I cover in abuse stories come from either Calvinist or Neo-Calvinist background. That’s not to say there are not abuse issues within Arminian churches (i.e., Calvary Chapel). I’ve mentioned before that I have friends who are Calvinist who certainly are not abusive. In fact, they defend the oppressed/abused. We have to be careful about those kinds of blanket statements. But there may be some truth to the idea that some doctrines may be a better “breeding” ground for abusive-type leaders.
So, in light of Brian’s comment below, let’s go for it. And okay, I give up . . . go ahead and spell out that “C” word if you want – LOL 🙂
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Ed said: “Don’t call yourself a Calvinist if you don’t support everything about John Calvin.”
Ed, Calvinism and John Calvin are not synonymous, regardless of what you say.
Holding to the tenets of what is commonly called Calvinism does NOT equate to agreeing with everything Calvin did or taught.
I am curious…does anyone on here even know what they are talking about when they use the term “Calvinism”? I’d be interested to see some responses. What is Calvinism? You’ve all been railing against it, so I expect you can describe it without having to look it up. If you have to look it up, then why are you so against something about which you actually do not know the details?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Diane on August 20, 2013 at 4:12 AM
lol Just for you JA~ some serious, heavy duty sittin under going on.
“Tony Miano @TonyMiano 4h
I’m not just speaking @ the @bibleevangelism conf. I’m sittin under teaching of @ChuckONeal_, being equipped and edified. #PreachPortland”
Oh, my! That did not mix well with my morning coffee 😦
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“So…does God love Jerry Bridges more than those people 100 years ago because he was ordained to live in this time and had access to the medical technology to reverse God’s knitting?”
“When I have asked Calvinists about the people God does not give irresistible grace and his limited atonement to…….whether God loves them less OR the ones He chooses, love more?”
When I wrote “those people”, I should have stipulated…Christians living 100 years ago. They had no access to reverse the knitting. Bridges does have access due to the time in which he was born. He (Bridges) can further his life and, perhaps, enjoy a fuller quality life because of the valve surgery.
So…does God love Bridges more (because of the medical advances God ordained for his time of living of earth) than Christians of 100 years ago who have no such access and had to suffer with their malformed valves? They did not get the choice/ordained OK from God to reverse the knitting. Why does Bridges?
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So…now I’m some sort of sub-par Christian because, when referring to Jesus, I didn’t use Jesus, but instead used Christ and Lord and Savior? Obeekaybee…
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“Because PEOPLE decided to take responsibility and stand up against evil?”
Wellllllll…..that would not be a reason SGM would deem valid. 🙂
I hope you didn’t misunderstand me. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies and the many reasons various SGM players have given for the lawsuit– other than ordained by God. It would seem they really have no idea. I find that incredibly sad.
But I sure do see it, and rejoice!!!
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“Oh, my! That did not mix well with my morning coffee”
I will have to warn next time. Sorry! 🙂
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“If you believe in TULIP you might not be taking the doctrines to their logical conclusion. You cannot have both free will and the real definition of total depravity (total inability), and the rest of TULIP as it is defined.”
True, Lydia. Is it even possible to hold to the flower alone and completely deny every expression of the determinist god? No. How could I forget this? He holds the petals together!
“You are beloved by HIM!”
Thank you! 🙂 He has come to me in my darkest moments, when I believed myself to be ruined and profoundly unlovable because of what other people did to me, and literally stopped my tears before they could fall. This is our wonderful God, and it’s an honor to live for him RIGHT NOW!
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Regarding TULIP- JA gave its definition.
For clarification, it was devised as a response to five points of Arminians by Calvinists years after Calvin himself died.
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Hey Brian~
While you are here, can you spare some time to address what I have been asking in my comments? I am in need of some Calvinistic explanations.
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People have been holding to TULIP while denying a deterministic God for centuries. Perhaps it is illogical as you assert (I don’t think so), but I’m in the company of many smart individuals who were similarly confused if that is the case.
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Julie Anne, how terrible that you were being tormented by that same thinking. I understand that all too well! You are so right, what it does is revictimize people all over again. And some would say the revictimization is worse than the original abuse itself.
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Jeff, if God is predetermining who will be saved and who will not, how is that not determinism?
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Actually, I never said that Brian is some sort of sub-par Christian. Maybe he is setting up a straw man? Maybe he is attempting to put me in a bad light as a kind of poisoning the well strategy. What I am saying is that he attempted to take credit for referring to the NAME of Jesus when he did not actually do so. Had he simply said something along the lines of “Gary, I did not use the name of Jesus, but I did refer to Christ,” that would have been valid. To embellish his response by claiming he did something he did not do is not so good. Inasmuch as Brian is attempting to take credit for having done one thing when, in fact, had done something else, thereby exaggerating the truth, I suggest that it is time to refer to the following entry from our Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words:
Tactical Exaggeration: A form of deceit wherein some one or more factual circumstances are inflated, either quantitatively or qualitatively, in an attempt to discredit, demean, distract or otherwise gain an advantage by means other than an honest and forthright discussion of issues. Is a species of outright misrepresentation. May be deployed as one of several tactical gambits in an overarching strategy of avoiding a reasoned discussion of matters wherein one’s point of view is unlikely to prevail on the basis of dispassionate discourse.
I am not saying Brian is guilty of every aspect of “Tactical Exageration,” but perhaps he would be willing to consider for himself whether and to what extent the shoe fits?
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Oasis,
It is deterministic over salvation, and I will grant that. But usually the word means something far more than that, such as people have no choice over anything they do and are mindless automatons. When I’ve seen it used in these comments, that seems to be the context.
It’s a very different thing to say that God did what I could not do to save me than it is to say that I’ve never made a choice about anything at all.
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I must admit I only knew just a bit about calvanism and wasn’t that concerned about it until after tweeting to a Christian bro about seeing someone come to Christ while witnessing to them,(not bragging, just rejoicing) I got this tweet from a “pastor” which I found out was an outspoken calvanist. He accused me of setting myself up as pope, declaring people as saved. And he said he would never teach his congregation to witness to others. Needless to say, I was blown away, and when I inquired of him about his post he didn’t respond. But someone from Westboro responded and the situation escalated quickly into a twitter SHOUTING match of “YOU SHOULD READ YOUR BIBLE”. I eventually had to block the Westboro disciple. Upon further reading of this “pastors” post, he declares that some are born for salvation and others are born for hell. Another words it doesn’t matter what you may want, you are going to where you were born to go. But, he is strong on preaching the Gospel. I am thinking besides from the command to do so, what does it matter if your destination is preselected before birth. Another concern he had was the possibility of me making false converts. ?????????? If you are born saved or lost, how can I change God’s preselection and make someone lost that God said would be saved and make someone saved that God had determined before birth that he would go to Hell? I don’t think we can be so dogmatic as to say with absolute certainty that some are born saved or lost. That may be correct, but in the end I will err on the side of we are given a choice and I will tell others ab out Jesus cause I love Him and know what where He has brought me from and saved me from. And I don’t want to look back from heaven as see I didn’t tell others because i didn’t see it mattered and see those same folks headed to hell at my expense.
I have since run into Calvanists who were like him, but others who were not so dogmatic and felt the need to witness.
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Oh my word, Oasis. I know what you are saying is hitting me personally because I immediately welled up with tears upon reading your comment. I can hardly type now. I’m sorry, you guys, I cannot hide this crap. What you see is what you get with me. This is it. To be victimized by a God who is supposed to be loving? It is incomprehensible. I choose hell over a God who re-victimizes. I cannot align myself with a belief system that says God chose this for me because He loves me, that He chose to have Hannah spiritually abused and for her to abandon her faith and move out of our house abruptly because He loves me. I could go on and on in this spot with more personal stories. THIS is why many abandon the faith (and if I say “abandon the faith” among some of the Calvinist crowd, they say that those who “abandon” the faith were obviously never really one of the elect to begin with – ACKKKKKK!!!). Some of this stuff is so messed up. The only redeeming value that I can see in my experience is this blog where I can share my story and where others can equally share and have a platform. Oasis, your voice resonates with mine. Your spiritual experience connected with mine – – this kind of connection is very powerful. For you to say you have found hope in God after your victimizing experience, gives me and others hope. If it connected so deeply with me, I know we are representative of countless others.
I see this faulty belief system at the core of the issue with SGM abuse. This system only perpetuates more abuse and allows God to be the abuser. But you know, if they lose the lawsuit, that was God’s plan, too, because God’s
a big bully, I mean Sovereign and loving.LikeLike
Gary,
It is YOU who seem to be engaging in tactical exaggeration and false accusations.
Go back and read my response to you. I never once claimed that I used the name of Jesus prior to when you claim I did. What I did say was this:
“I refer to Jesus no less than FIVE times in my article.”
That is not a claim to use the actual letters that spell Jesus, but a fact that I referred to him no less than five times. Jesus has many names, and they all refer to same person.
I expect to see an apology by you and a reprimand by the moderators. ou guys could at least appear to attempt to have a level playing field on here.
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Darrell,
The idea of false converts is a big one. I just found a book on our shelf by Ray Comfort something having to do with making sure our children don’t leave the faith and I had to laugh at that thinking, well, how in the world can we have influence over our children if God is Sovereign?
Ok, I just grabbed the book:
How to Bring Your Children to Christ . . . . & keep them there
Is that title and subtitle contradictory to anyone else besides me?
And then this is below the title:
“Avoiding the Tragedy of False Conversion”
On the back:
NOTE to BGBC stalkers: Yes, you may now add Ray Comfort to your ongoing list of people JA has dealt with on her blog. 🙂 PS – Have fun with Tony Miano and Ken Cook at Lovejoy this morning. See if you can actually save a life or two instead of bullying women so much that they run into the clinic.
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This moderator is not going to intervene. In my cursory look, there has been an equal amount of banter. You are big boys and can move on. You both know the rules about getting personal.
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Jeff, if God is predetermining who will be saved and who will not, how is that not determinism? — Oasis
“But Dad, isn’t that Fascism?”
“No it isn’t, Kyle. Because we DON’T call it Fascism. Do you understand?”
“Do you?”
— South Park, “Sexual Harassment Panda”
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The idea of false converts is a big one. I just found a book on our shelf by Ray Comfort something having to do with making sure our children don’t leave the faith and I had to laugh at that thinking, well, how in the world can we have influence over our children if God is Sovereign?
doublethink, comrade, doublethink.
(Ray Comfort. Of “banana video” fame.)
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Brian at 9:27 reminds me of another Glossary entry, although I will here edit it to fit the circumstance:
Verbal Subterfuge: The art of manipulatively communicating an idea or impression to a target audience, but in a manner that allows the speaker or writer to claim that something else was intended. Sometimes referred to as plausible deniability. Note the etymological similarity between “subterfuge” and “subtle,” as in “the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made.” Gen. 3:1, ASV 1901.
The distinction is subtle, but to claim credit for using to the NAME of Jesus when one has only referred to the PERSON of Jesus, and that without the use of his name, just isn’t quite the same. Brian would have been better off just pointing out what he had done, preferably without what I guess is called “attitude.” At least “attitude” is what I am reading into Brian’s way of communicating.
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I have no problem with the banter. What I have a problem with is someone attempting to create out of thin air something that is completely false. Gary, it appears Julie Anne referred to you as a lawyer. If that’s true then I am confident you can see your error in accusing me of claiming to do something that I never claimed to do. I look forward to seeing your response.
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@ JA~
” I cannot align myself with a belief system that says God chose this for me because He loves me, that He chose to have Hannah spiritually abused and for her to abandon her faith and move out of our house abruptly because He loves me. I could go on and on in this spot with more personal stories.”
Don’t believe those lies that you were told. 😦
Remember when I referenced Ephesians 1 the other day? You are adopted (by faith in Jesus, our Savior) blessed (blessed are you, JA, who believes and has not seen!!) chosen (however that is to be interpreted-don’t really care-God has it covered) redeemed (by His blood because He loves you) favored (joint-heirs with Jesus, a daughter, blessed with every spiritual blessing, Holy Spirit indwelling, inheritance waiting for you in heaven) and forgiven (imagine–Jesus prays for you to the Father! You are on His mind, JA!).
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” At least “attitude” is what I am reading into Brian’s way of communicating.”
And deception is what I am reading into yours, Gary.
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Question~
Is there no one on this thread that believes God ordains everything that comes into your life ala Jerry Bridges? Sure thought someone would be able to explain Jerry Bridges and the valve surgery to me.
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Then we see many other NC/YRR leaders totally protect Mahaney. It was said he had correct doctrine and was a strong leader. One problem I see is that authoritarianism/pecking order in Christendom seems to be inherent in Calvinism (the church as arbiter of your salvation, keys to the kingdom stuff, ruling elders, etc)
YES!!! Bingo! This is the kind of pattern that I have observed over and over again. The patterns reveal so much and when you see it replayed in multiple Calvinist churches with ego-maniac pastors.
Well, since a God who is OMNIPOTENT above all else has been defined as POWER above all else, why shouldn’t His Godly Elect(TM) be egomaniacs thirsting after POWER and CONTROL? They are just being like how they envision God to be — an omnipotent control freak. And thinking of themselves as God’s Speshul Elect with the Predestined Get Out of Hell Free Card (which you DON’T have)…
And how does Calvin’s “Perfect Doctrine” differ from Comrade Pol Pot’s “Purity of Ideology” in effect and side effects? Once you have The One True Way, that One True Way can justify anything. On a Cosmic level.
And what it comes down to is a paraphrase of the Prophets: “Who is God? Christ or Calvin?” Because if Calvin Got his Perfect Doctrine Absolutely Right, he’d have to BE God to know the mind and purpose of God so perfectly.
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Diane: The tears confirm you hit the spot. It’s so crazy that I KNOW these verses, my intellect KNOWS them, but the power of the destructive belief system, combined with years of abuse, convolutes the truth and can sometimes overpower that truth with blatant LIES. Those lies keep us trapped. I have to continually combat those lies with truth like Eph 1 and who I am in Christ. It is an ongoing process/battle.
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” hope you didn’t misunderstand me. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies and the many reasons various SGM players have given for the lawsuit– other than ordained by God. It would seem they really have no idea. I find that incredibly sad.”
Perhaps I did….. but I see them as the same inconsistencies. :o)
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lol….completely understand lydiasop.
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“People have been holding to TULIP while denying a deterministic God for centuries. Perhaps it is illogical as you assert (I don’t think so), but I’m in the company of many smart individuals who were similarly confused if that is the case.”
Jeff, History of this doctrine is not exactly a great example. It is a bloody evil totalitarian mess from Augustine to the Puritans. For the life of me I cannot see how you do not read Determinism/dualism when you read Calvin’s doctrines.
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Well, for the life of me I don’t see how you don’t read Calvinism when you read the Bible. Perhaps we just process things differently. Maybe I’m wrong, but I can only be honest about what I think and believe.
But then again, I don’t do a lot of study of Calvin. I study more scripture. Recently I’ve been going through the WCF, and I don’t agree with everything that’s in it. But there is a lot of it that I do, and what I read there is FAR different from how you characterize what Calvinism is.
And yes, I do realize the WCF isn’t strictly speaking, Calvinism. There are things even in it that Calvin would have disagreed with (such as its view of the Sabbath).
In the end, my view is to try and understand scripture, not Calvin.
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@ JA~
“PS – Have fun with Tony Miano and Ken Cook at Lovejoy this morning. See if you can actually save a life or two instead of bullying women so much that they run into the clinic.”
On a related note, I have been checking out who Miano is. I have never watched any of the …oh…10 million youtubes he has posted of himself, but I did finally pick one to watch the other day and it’s very disturbing.
If this is any indication how he does evangelism at a clinic, may God have mercy on the people of Portland. Well, may God have mercy anyway.
Sorry to link this here…but I couldn’t believe what I was watching and I am not talking about the man in the black car!. Notice the big letters he adds to the video about how this man attempted to “attack” him. rolls eyes
lol Good grief. Miano refers to himself on his bios as a retired twenty year veteran of the LA County Sheriff’s. He’s an ex-deputy sheriff, yet he films and posts this little confrontation….why? I am pretty sure he experienced much worse working in LA County. Just thought that was a rather silly–“look at the evil I am enduring… I am being ataaaaaaaaaaaacked”..thing for an “20 year vet” retired ex-deputy sheriff to post– but what do I know? I have only been around law enforcement via family members for 33 years. Maybe he gets persecution points for posting it.
Do not enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwt7rw0bZD8
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“Diane: The tears confirm you hit the spot. It’s so crazy that I KNOW these verses, my intellect KNOWS them, but the power of the destructive belief system, combined with years of abuse, convolutes the truth and can sometimes overpower that truth with blatant LIES. Those lies keep us trapped. I have to continually combat those lies with truth like Eph 1 and who I am in Christ. It is an ongoing process/battle.”
You have been a victim also of thought reform. It is powerful. And confusing because many of the same words are used but with different definitions so it is harder to discern. It is also hard to keep up with the contradictions. And almost impossible to apply to every day life. Very smart people get caught up in it. I know I did.
I think Calvinism is very compelling because it lays it all out in a neat package. People crave systems and formulas and abhor what they think is chaos. It is a systematized process of how it all works. What is harder, in my view, is to abide in Christ and wrestle with God and take responsibility for the relationship. There is no sin in doubt and wrestling. Faith does not mean you never doubt or that you understand everything perfectly. But I will say that when I went back to my roots of man is responsible to God for his sin and responsible to choose the reconciliation Jesus Christ offers as a free gift……and our responsibility for our sin against others….. it was like total freedom. Being a slave of Christ is total freedom. It is uncanny. Being a slave of man’s ST is not freedom at all.
In defense of Calvinists I think many of them are genuinely concerned about God being portrayed as some wimpy grandpa in the sky. As if He does not have the power if we think we are involved in the salvation process. I see it completely different…and take it back to Genesis. God created beings who could say no to Him and disobey Him if they choose. He did not take that power away but the sin did separate us from God spiritually. Jesus gives us the opportunity to be reconciled to God. It is a free gift.
One place where I think folks miss some of the other problems in the determinist construct is that justification and sanctification are really the same thing. (I believe they are different but you cannot have one without the other)
The P is not really like Once saved always saved doctrine. How does one know if one perseveres until it is all over? If God chose you, you will always be saved. How is this not deterministic for sanctification? Usually what folks say is that they were never saved to begin with. Lots of proof texting adds to the confusion on this one.
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But then again, I don’t do a lot of study of Calvin. I study more scripture. Recently I’ve been going through the WCF, and I don’t agree with everything that’s in it. But there is a lot of it that I do, and what I read there is FAR different from how you characterize what Calvinism is.”
I am even more confused! How do you know what you are reading in scripture is or is not Calvinistic if you have not studied Calvinism?
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Here’s more from this morning, Diane: https://www.keek.com/!Ox7Ycab
Chuck tweeted last night that people were thanking them for their evangelism efforts (they were at Pioneer Courthouse Square – commonly referred to as the living room in downtown Portland. It is an entire square block “living room” where people hang out). I’m thinking maybe Starbucks may have encouraged them for their business, but I can’t think off many Portlanders liking his tactics as evidenced by the media recently.
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Oh, Julie Anne… I am really glad you shared that because I had no idea we could relate to each other so much. I understand the pain that is like nothing else, the tears that spring up! And yes, there are so many others who are lost in that dark and devastating tunnel, searching for hope, for the light. That is one reason why I keep going on and on like a broken record on blog after blog. (Wow, to be able to give someone hope now is amazing.)
Yes, it is incomprehensible. That is why we are UNABLE to believe it. Pain is a signal that something is WRONG. There is no peace, no sign of life, only death. And that is the choice here: Life or death. You are spot on, this is why many leave the faith – the teaching almost destroyed my own relationship with God. I found it impossible to love or even want to be close to such a being. Like you, I cannot align myself with that destructive and nonsensical belief system. God reveals a much different image of himself to me, a beautiful image that looks nothing like the god they teach.
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Speaking of Romans 8:28, I found this link very insightful: rebootchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/08/romans-828-in-context.html
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Oasis – That is sooo true!
I have a tough image, but I am a real emotional basket case when it comes to this stuff and a lot of it is because it has hit me and my family so deeply and continues to do so. Yes, daily, I am living with the fallout of this destructive aspect of bad doctrine. I can still see it in the relationships in my family – – it was learned and must be unlearned and unfortunately, it might take someone else in their life for them to unlearn it (besides me). If people (here) can learn from me and my experiences and mistakes, praise God. I think I need to do a post on this topic because there are many who are slipping away from anything of God because of that evil image they cannot get out of their minds.
I was meeting a few weeks ago with some bloggers/ministry people and was so touched when one of the pastors acknowledged the people who have been so damaged that they can’t go to church or “do” anything with God anymore. I became keenly aware of this when i was overwhelmed with literally hundreds of e-mails of support from “atheists” – people who said they had been harmed at church and no longer “did God.” You and I know that many among those groups of people were abused like we were and just can’t get over that stuff. They need to know they aren’t alone and what they were taught was WRONG. We can give them hope.
If you’d be interested in contributing to a post like this, Oasis, please let me know: spiritualsb@gmail dot com I could take from the comments or if you have more you could add, that would be great, too.
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“I am even more confused! How do you know what you are reading in scripture is or is not Calvinistic if you have not studied Calvinism?”
Because, again, I generally don’t care if it is or not.
You seem to think that the way I operate is
Calvinism->Scripture->Truth
That’s not the case. Calvinism is a nice shorthand for describing a system of beliefs that I think are found in scripture. In general, I agree with Reformed Systematic Theology. I don’t look at verses in isolation, but how the appear to fit together, so it helps to have a general idea of what others have seen when they’ve looked at them together. I feel free to disagree with anything I don’t think scripture teaches (and I go to a church that supports that). Cavlinism and the WCF are tools in the toolbelt, but scripture is the source.
I identify as Calvinist because I agree with TULIP (depending on how the “L” is defined). It’s a shorthand and a framework. But I do so because it describes beliefs I have.
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Thanks for the explanation Jeff. I am not sure how you cannot see determinism and dualism in the TULIP, though. But it obviously does not matter.
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I’m new to commenting on this thread and have a question for those of you who are Calvinists.
Re: predestination/election: If God elects some for salvation then it follows that he elects the rest for damnation.
Doesn’t that bother you?
On another note:
My offense re: Calvinism comes from my own experience with a Calvinist who believed that the death of my baby (SIDS) was God’s plan all along. That it was for His glory that my daughter was now with Him. At the time, I was a new believer and just didn’t know how to process that news. Now, I don’t believe that my baby’s death was God’s will. I do believe in a world where’s there is sin and death and we have a true enemy and God’s will is not always done here.
Do you agree with what she said? What would you say? Would you say something different? Why would she say such a thing being a Calvinist?
When I hear Calvinism I think of that.
I think it is beyond cruel.
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I apologize for dropping out of this conversation for a bit. I had the great joy of spending last night with my wife and daughter. By the time I came back to this thread it had passed me by. Even so, I want to at least acknowledge the many thoughtful questions and comments that were addressed to me.
My story of what happened with SGM, based mainly on what I’ve learned from this blog plus a little experience would go like this. Sexual abuse occurred in these fellowships. Some of the most defenseless members of their communities were cruelly abused and victimized. The abusers got caught, but did what abusers are very skilled at doing – they shifted the focus on to themselves in order to silence any voices speaking for the children. The conversation became “You have to forgive me. I’m just a sinner like the rest of you”. The leadership was duped. That doesn’t mean they’re not accountable. They were fooled in part by their own arrogance. They didn’t turn to those who are experts on these matters, whether in psychology or law. They arrogantly, and at great cost to the children, assumed they knew what they were doing. The result was this perverse and distorted practice of asking three year olds to forgive their abusers.
I’m not saying this is what happened; it’s just my best guess. If I’m right, there’s nothing specific to Calvinist belief that has gone wrong here, except perhaps that we Calvinists are more prone than most to think we know far more than we really do.
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Monique, There are no words for the grief you have had to bear in losing a child like that. They all seem so empty for such a thing like that.
All I can say is we must weep with those who weep. We must bear one another’s pain and grief. Jesus did. He knew He was going to raise Lazarus yet He wept when he saw his dear friends and followers so distraught and grieved. It made Him weep, too.
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“If God elects some for salvation then it follows that he elects the rest for damnation.
Doesn’t that bother you?”
Yes. Even RC Sproul (Sr) admits this bothers him.
But I believe it is what scripture teaches, so it’s one thing I accept with trust that I will understand it better when all is made known to me. I can kind of understand it in a “head” kind of way, but it bothers my heart. For this reason, I really only tend to think of Calvinism as it applies to ME. I think of myself as having been Totally Depraved, drawn, and now in the process of sanctification. I don’t really look at others that way. I just look as it is my job to show them Jesus.
Regarding the death of your baby, I think the will of God is a complex subject. But there is an aspect of God’s will about what is pleasing to him. I do no think that it was pleasing to him that your baby died.
The problem of suffering and evil is a huge one, and I don’t think ANY theists offer a great answer. At best, in our limited understanding, it seems God has the power to prevent evil from occurring and chooses not to. Even that is difficult to make sense of. I don’t have an answer for that.
What I do know is that God became man and endured suffering along with us. Whatever else you can say about the God of the Bible, he identifies with us and our suffering.
I cannot offer any more than that, as that is an issue I still wrestle with.
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Julie Anne, that is so sad about your family! And to think that so many people e-mailed you. Oh, you are going to make me cry. And this right here:
“They need to know they aren’t alone and what they were taught was WRONG. We can give them hope.”
WOW. That is about all I can say because now I am just speechless. Also, I pulled an all-nighter am having trouble forming a thought, LOL… Will e-mail you.
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Darrell (9:15)
Exactly! This is one of the main things that drew me away from SGM. I had so many conversations back then with SGM folks about exciting conversations I had had with people about Jesus, and instead of being met with excitement, the response was always skeptical. They were so focused on people “understanding” their brand of Christianity that the simple presentation of the gospel couldn’t possibly be genuine in their mind. It was considered watered down Christianity, easy believism etc.
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They were so focused on people “understanding” their brand of Christianity that the simple presentation of the gospel couldn’t possibly be genuine in their mind. It was considered watered down Christianity, easy believism etc.
Don’t the last few verses of the Book of Revelation pronounce a curse upon those “who add to the words of this book”? (And John wasn’t talking about Mary.)
And isn’t the essence of Gnosticism the Speshul Sekrit Knowledge (in addition to the gospel) that We and We Alone Have? That We and We Alone Understand?
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“I am curious…does anyone on here even know what they are talking about when they use the term “Calvinism”? I’d be interested to see some responses.”
Brian, your response inherently assumes incompetence and inability on the part of those who oppose your soteriology. What you are saying is that automatically anyone who opposes Calvinism has an inability (or is too incompetent) to understand Calvinism and John Calvin. What qualifications does one need to have? A degree from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where they sell Al Mohler and Charles Spurgeon bobble-head dolls? A complete devotion to “Docktor” James White and his teachings, where time and again he slags off other apologists such as Norman Geisler, who has a REAL doctorate?
Brian, you know nothing about any of our backgrounds. But I’ll throw you a bone: Six years ago, I’ve read Calvin’s Institutes cover to cover, not in the original Latin mind you, but have read a standard English translation by Ford Lewis Battles. Last year I’ve read Charles Hodge’s 3-volume Systematic Theology cover to cover. On the other side I’ve read the entire New Testament many times, and large portions of the Old Testament, both in the King James Version. I’ve read many many books critical of Calvinism, including Laurence Vance’s “The Other Side of Calvinism”, C. Gordon Olsen’s “Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism”, Norman Geisler’s “Chosen But Free”, David L. Allen’s “Whosoever Will”, Louis Ruggiero’s “The God of Calvinism”, Dave Hunt’s “What Love Is This?”, Samuel Fisk’s “Election and Predestination” and “Calvinistic Paths Retraced”, Robert Lightner’s “The Death Christ Died, A Case For Unlimited Atonement”, among others.
Now as for John Calvin, he was a murderer and a tyrant, plain and simple. It was his tyrannical power that led to the deaths of innocent people. He persecuted Anabaptists, just like all the rest of the Reformers. Read Menno Simons’ writings, and you will discover the true bloodthirsty character of the followers of the Reformation.
I’ve seen the fruits of Calvinistic leaders and their outward arrogance, and have found them wanting in love and respect for others. I’ve seen much in the way of narcissistic behaviour from individuals in the Neo-Calvinistic movement. As a result, I do not and will not have anything to do with the false deterministic god of Calvinism.
Instead, for me the time has come to do theological and philosophical battle with Calvinism, expose its roots in tyranny, and its destructive influences upon evangelicalism.
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Both Calvin and Mohammed seem to have had tunnel vision on a single attribute of God: Omnipotence/Sovereignty. Both emphasized God’s Will(TM) overriding every other aspect of God, overriding all reality. Both seemed obsessed with forming a completely-airtight “correct doctrine”, though Calvin was a lawyer and Mohammed the equivalent of a long-haul truckdriver.
And when you add entropy to the “correct doctrine” of both, you get Utter Determinism and a God who is Omnipotent but NOT benevolent. And all of us are nothing more than puppets and playthings dancing on His strings.
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Well, Brian, are we having fun yet? Was my 98% guess pretty close?
Jeff S several times made the important point that what matters is what Scripture says. I realize that comments are not theses, but it still is striking to me that there are so many opinions and so little resort to Scripture. I believe one reason Calvinism is valuable is that it attempts to take in *all* of Scripture, which means that it doesn’t shy away from the parts that make us uncomfortable. It’s simply a fact that words like “elect,” “predestine,” and “ordain” are there, as well as “love,” “grace,” and “free.” If you think the first three words don’t mean in Greek what they seem to mean in English, go make your case, but don’t pretend they are not there.
Calvin may have quoted Augustine a lot, but he quoted Scripture a lot more. He wasn’t just tossing off opinions. And, of course, he was not infallible.
No matter how well one knows the Bible, there is still a realm of mystery, and anyone who thinks he/she can explain it all is a fool. That includes people who pretend to know for sure exactly why a person acted the way he/she did or why a certain event took place. At one point, Calvin says that there are things that God does that, from our point of view, seem to be “dreadful, I confess.” He was particularly referring to God’s decision to create man though He knew that man would fall into sin.
One thing that Calvinism is definitely not is fatalism. He believed that humans have free will, just not in the way that God does. Jerry Bridges arranging for an operation is not in opposition to his Calvinist beliefs.
Those who have problems with the ideas that the repercussions of Adam’s sin spread to all mankind and that “there is no one who does good, not one,” should take it up with the Bible, not with Calvin.
I’m giving the impression that Calvin only deals with what is gloomy, and that is misleading. You’d be surprised at how much joy in God there is in his writings.
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“Jeff S several times made the important point that what matters is what Scripture says. I realize that comments are not theses, but it still is striking to me that there are so many opinions and so little resort to Scripture. I believe one reason Calvinism is valuable is that it attempts to take in *all* of Scripture, which means that it doesn’t shy away from the parts that make us uncomfortable. It’s simply a fact that words like “elect,” “predestine,” and “ordain” are there, as well as “love,” “grace,” and “free.” If you think the first three words don’t mean in Greek what they seem to mean in English, go make your case, but don’t pretend they are not there.”
Actually Jeff, the WORST thing we can do is play the proof texting game. It never fails that the “experts” are then brought out and ends up my dead guys are smarter than your dead guys.
It sounds pious to appeal to quoting a bunch of scripture back and forth except for one small problem. One side reads it with the Augustinian/Calvinist filter and the other, doesn’t. That means one side is reading determinism and dualism into almost every passage and the other side isn’t. So one is reading determinist god/dualistic nature of man into every passage and the other isn’t.
That means we get no where because we get bogged down in interpretations, translations, historical context, etc, etc. Some of us have done that for a long long time even with pastors! (gasp) It is a total waste of time, really. Sometimes I just cannot help myself and get sucked in and I should know better. I find it easier to point out the contradictions that are there is you really take the construct to it’s logical conclusions. . More and more people are starting to question the construct and this debate on it in the public square (by the peasants) is the best thing that could ever happen. And it could not happen until the internet. Before then, it was a convo in academia between theologians and wanna be pastors. And before then, you were NOT allowed to question it or you might get the rack! :o)
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As I said above. Calvin may have begun as an intellectual type coming up with his own airtight “Correct-Doctrine Christianity” in the manner of many obsessive theological fanboys. (Possibly just intense and academic, possibly to the point of being a kook or crank.) However, when he was actually given power over others in Geneva, he became a Christian Ayatollah Khomeini atop a religious dictatorship.
(Khomeini himself showed little or no sign of becoming a dictator until he was installed as Supreme Leader after the Iranian Revolution. Then it seems to have gone to his head and he just went berserk. Maybe the same thing happened to Calvin — the lure of Power by Divine Right, the lure of the Perfect Utopia under the Perfectly Correct Ideology/Doctrine.)
I think a lot of that attitude is the “Get Out of Hell Free Card” of the Predestined Elect. The Inner Ring of the Truly Elect where they but carry out God’s Will. (Which eventually ends up conforming to “MY Will be done”, as God ends up hating all the things you hate.) And all the dynamic of Absolute Power by Divine Right, cosmically-justified before the foundation of the world by the Omnipotence of a God with Absolute Power, comes into play. For since God’s Will Can Do No Wrong, We Can Do No Wrong. Maybe not in the first generation, but the one after that, or the one after, as entropy sets in.
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Gary W – If you *are* a lawyer, you are one who gives them a bad name. First, you make the relative uses of the words “Jesus” or “Christ” an issue of importance by explaining that you can tell what Brian thinks of Jesus Christ by how often he uses one or the other of the words. Then you impugn his character by distorting what he actually said about his references to Jesus Christ. I guess it all depends on what “is” is.
I realize that, in my last comment, I did not use the words “Jesus” *or* “Christ,” and did not even refer to Him, and that that alone invalidates me. But, more to the point, if you want an idea of what Calvin thought of Jesus – and in a discussion of election, no less – take a look at 3.24.5 in his Institutes. I have to admit, though, that he only refers to Him as Christ.
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“Those who have problems with the ideas that the repercussions of Adam’s sin spread to all mankind and that “there is no one who does good, not one,” should take it up with the Bible, not with Calvin.”
Evidently, Mary did something good as God highly favored her. Could it have been for her depravity? Just His “random” favorings?
Why did Peter call Lot a righteous man? Because he never did any good?
Genesis 6 says Noah was a “righteous” man. Was that because he never did anything good?
If we can do no good then why punish evil doers? It is not their fault–as they CANNOT do good.
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Ryan – I’m genuinely impressed with the amount of reading you’ve done. I’m also impressed with the fact that you list many anti-Calvinism books that you’ve read, and no pro-Calvinism ones. I realize that it won’t make a dent in the wisdom of the late Dave Hunt (who admitted that he read none of the reformers) or Norman Geisler (a brilliant man, who, nevertheless, confused “moderate” Calvinism with Arminianism), but why not try Michael Horton’s “For Calvinism?”
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“One thing that Calvinism is definitely not is fatalism. He believed that humans have free will, just not in the way that God does. Jerry Bridges arranging for an operation is not in opposition to his Calvinist beliefs.”
Please explain this to me. I have been waiting all day. 🙂
Why isn’t it in opposition? Bridges stated God makes us as He wants us to be because He is sovereign and ordains all. We are knitted/formed by God in the womb, malformations and all. God is creating us how He wishes to create us while He is creating us. Unless God makes a mistake in how He knits us in the womb, it seems to be that God, being the Creator and sovereign and ordaining all, wants you to be the way he created you.
Having free will to schedule a surgery is something I obviously understand. 🙂
My point/question is…dare Bridges change how God specifically ordained him to be knit together in his mother’s womb? If you say yes, Bridges may dare reverse the God ordained knitting, please tell me why.
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Lydia – I forgot that God is the author of confusion, and could not write clearly enough to offset our filters, even with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, Who, actually, you know, inspired the Scriptures. Really, then, why bother with the Bible at all?
Concerning “good”: As I said, take it up with the Scriptures, and find out what “good” means in its context there. Oh, wait, those darn filters…
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Thank you Lydiasellerofpurple for your kind words. Thankfully her words of “comfort” were not the only sources of support we received.
I know it was hard for her to know what to say to comfort someone in my place, but gee whiz, don’t make my only source of true healing (God) the cause of my baby’s death.
Thank you Jeff S. for your reply. I know the problem with evil/suffering is a hard topic and we will continue to wrestle with it. It’s just that comments like the woman I described can be so injurious to someone deeply grieving.
But I have another Q for you:
You said:
“Whatever else you can say about the God of the Bible, he identifies with us and our suffering.”
As Lydia had said Jesus wept with me. So how can a God who elects some for damnation identify with our sufferings then? How can he weep with me and yet then perhaps (?) damn me at the same time?
I experience such cognitive dissonance in re: to Calvinism.
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Jeff, LOL – you don’t consider Hodge’s Systematic Theology and Calvin’s Institutes to be pro-Calvinism? Ok, so I haven’t read the “oh so great” Francis Turretin’s “Institutes of Eclectic Theology” – fine. I will read Horton’s book if I get a free copy, I promise.
So why no reply to the charge that some Calvinists assume incompetency on the part of their opponents? Why this assumption – is it mere arrogance or is it something deeper?
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“Actually Jeff, the WORST thing we can do is play the proof texting game. It never fails that the “experts” are then brought out and ends up my dead guys are smarter than your dead guys.”
Lydiasellerofpurple, Exactly! :o)
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Gentlemen, let me know if I can help with a behind-the-scenes address exchange. I’m sensing someone is chomping at the bit to read a free book on Calvinism. 🙂
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Here is one thing to consider: If determinists believe that all has been foreordained before the foundation of the universe, then why do they insist on arguing with non-determinists? According to the determinist (and the Calvinist IS the Christian version of a determinist), all things that are determined to come to pass WILL come to pass without any chance of error. Now IF this is the case (which it truly isn’t), then why doesn’t the determinist merely sit quietly and peaceably under the tree and meditate like a Bhuddist monk? It is certainly a more peaceful and natural way to act There is no reason to act or change things under a deterministic paradigm.
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“No matter how well one knows the Bible, there is still a realm of mystery, and anyone who thinks he/she can explain it all is a fool. That includes people who pretend to know for sure exactly why a person acted the way he/she did or why a certain event took place.”
Care to elaborate on the people/fools who pretend to know for sure why a person acted the way he/she did or why a certain event took place? Not understanding you at all here.
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HUG, interesting observations. Entropy is a good explanation if the bulk of evangelicalism is indeed unregenerate.
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This discussion is insane. There seems to be little if any mature discussion-and by that I mean discussion done with charity – and a lot of distortions about the opposite side, no doubt arising from distorted presentations by the opposite side. People have been hurt gravely, and sometimes it is the pain speaking and I can understand that. But it would be better to wait until there has been healing from the pain to say anything, or even read anything. This is not the way Christians should discuss the Truth.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts. For me, I don’t think I can come back here and be of any use to anyone.
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“Lydia – I forgot that God is the author of confusion, and could not write clearly enough to offset our filters, even with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, Who, actually, you know, inspired the Scriptures. Really, then, why bother with the Bible at all?”
Jeff, LOL! you are putting forth the same argument I mentioned concerning dead guys. Now, according to you, those who read it with the Augustinian/Calvinist filter have the Holy Spirit and we don’t. :o)
How do you explain the hundreds of denominations in Christianity over differences in interpretations of scripture? (I realize there weren’t that many during the Reformation period because they were illegal and would be banished or burned by the Reformers or Catholics)
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“People have been hurt gravely, and sometimes it is the pain speaking and I can understand that. But it would be better to wait until there has been healing from the pain to say anything, or even read anything. This is not the way Christians should discuss the Truth.”
Carroll, I hope you don’t tell victims of molestation that same thing. That only their pain is speaking and to wait until they are healed. That could be decades..
Spiritual abuse is devastating to people. We should encourage them to discuss it. Discussing it is part of healing.
Can you give an example of how to do this with maturity and charity? How should Christians discuss truth? What would be acceptable to you?
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Why did classic Communists work to bring about The Revolution when their deterministic paradigm (Inevitable Dialectic of History) meant The Revolution and Achieving True Communism was inevitable?
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“That includes people who pretend to know for sure exactly why a person acted the way he/she did or why a certain event took place.”
I do not understand why it is important to know “why”. We can only look at actions/words. And when they don’t match, we should look to actions.
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Here is one thing to consider: If determinists believe that all has been foreordained before the foundation of the universe, then why do they insist on arguing with non-determinists? According to the determinist (and the Calvinist IS the Christian version of a determinist), all things that are determined to come to pass WILL come to pass without any chance of error. Now IF this is the case (which it truly isn’t), then why doesn’t the determinist merely sit quietly and peaceably under the tree and meditate like a Bhuddist monk? It is certainly a more peaceful and natural way to act There is no reason to act or change things under a deterministic paradigm.”
Ryan, that is the main contradiction. We were predestined NOT to believe in (or understand in their view) Calvinism.
I often wonder why they don’t agree with their own doctrine in practice?
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Another thing i want to bring up is the downright sinful behaviour of Calvinists in previous generations. Here’s some of the things I’ve dug up:
Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) PERSECUTOR OF ANABAPTISTS AND JEWS
Huldreich Zwingli (1484 – 1531) PERSECUTOR OF ANABAPTISTS
Heinrich Bullinger (1504 – 1575) PERSECUTOR OF ANABAPTISTS
John Calvin (1509 – 1564) PERSECUTOR, HAD MICHAEL SERVETUS AND OTHER MURDERED
Francis Gomaer (Franciscus Gomarus) (1563 – 1641) PERSECUTOR OF ARMINIANS
Johnathan Edwards (1703 – 1758) SLAVE OWNER AND PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE, AT LEAST TWO INDIVIDUALS COMMITTED SUICIDE AS A RESULT OF HIS PREACHING
George Whitefield (1714 – 1770) SLAVE OWNER AND PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
Basil Manly, Sr. (1798 – 1868) SLAVER OWNER AND PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
John Leadley Dagg (1794 – 1884) PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
Robert Jefferson Breckenridge (1800 – 1871) SLAVE OWNER
Richard Fuller (1804 – 1876) PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
James Henley Thornwell (1812 – 1862) PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
Robert Lewis Dabney (1820 – 1898) PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE, VIRULENT RACIST
Basil Manly, Jr. (1825 – 1892) PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
James Petigru Boyce (1827 – 1888) SLAVE OWNER AND PRO-SLAVERY ADVOCATE
John Albert Broadus (1827 – 1895) SLAVE OWNER
Loraine Boettner (1901 – 1990) EXCUSED CALVIN’S MURDER OF SERVETUS
Rousas John Rushdoony (1916 – 2001) RECONSTRUCTIONIST, OPPOSED INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE, HOLOCAUST DENIER
There are more – I’m still adding to the list…
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Quoted for emphasis
Carroll, I understand completely how you feel. And I agree with you that you probably can’t be of use in this discussion. It was set up from the start to be a no-holds-barred discussion that sprang out of another comment thread that took on epic proportions.
I would encourage you to come back and engage in the discussion on other blog posts, especialy ones that deal specifically with the pain being felt by those who are just getting out of spiritual abuse situations. Your calm and compassionate demeanor would be invaluable there.
And Amen to letting the peace of Christ abide and rule in all our hearts.
Fiat Pax
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Carroll ~
“People have been hurt gravely, and sometimes it is the pain speaking and I can understand that. But it would be better to wait until there has been healing from the pain to say anything, or even read anything. This is not the way Christians should discuss the Truth.”
I don’t know if you are referring to me, but this happened over 20 years ago. Yes, it was painful and I’ve since received much prayer and healing (and have prayed with others who have experienced the same pain) ~ but the healing will go on I suppose until I get to the other side.
Again, sorry if this didn’t refer to me.
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“Why did classic Communists work to bring about The Revolution when their deterministic paradigm (Inevitable Dialectic of History) meant The Revolution and Achieving True Communism was inevitable?”
Exactly HUG. Deterministic Atheism (communism) is more vile than deterministic Christianity given its track record of the murder of millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Koreans, Chinese, Cambodians, among other people.
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JA, just wanted to thank-you for allowing a no-holds barred discussion here. Over the last few years, I’ve been learning much Christian history and theology. It has greatly rattled my faith in God, but not destroyed it. Yet at the same time I’m very thankful for all of this knowledge I’ve gained.
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Hi Carroll,
Fiat Pax is correct. I have never allowed this kind of discussion here before (to this extent) and knew very well the turbulent waters we’d face, but decided to let people have the floor for a one-time deal. This is not the typical discussion we have in other posts.
I appreciate your feedback, Carroll, and strive to make this a place where there can be healing and care and where the love of Christ is evident.
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You’re welcome, Ryan. I think the beauty of this is that we can keep the Calvinist talk here on this thread and the temptation to bring Calvin to other threads might diminish. That would be good.
So, if this topic interests you and you want to continue to engage in it, be sure to subscribe to this particular thread. I know I lean the most from debates, but would prefer that it not define the overall tone of SSB.
Thanks, everyone. I think this is a great workable solution and should keep everyone happy (minus one). Lol.
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Ryan, Don’t forget the Puritan leaders. I especially enjoyed John Cotton’s “The Bloudy Tenent washed and made white in the bloud of the Lamb” which was his response to Roger Williams’ Bloudy Tenant of Persecution.
Cotton also explains why it is ok spiritually to wipe out Indian tribes who would not sell them land. At least he tried a bit to defend Anne Hutchinson from being banished pregnant and in the winter for daring to hold a bible study in her home.
Those Puritans!
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Yes, Thanks JA. It is good for people to discuss what they believe about the Godhead and the Christian life and why. For so long we have all just sat and been taught. Perhaps study on our own or with like minded people.
Iron sharpens iron.
What is the God we claim to know and love really like? Did He randomly choose some for salvation passing over others or did He make salvation possible for all who repent, believe , trust and obey? Those are good questions to discuss.
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Julie Anne,
I find it very interesting & telling that two very courageous people felt safe enough to tell us about their experiences & what they’ve endured, during an open free discussion about Calvinism. Not any other topic. Does anyone else find this telling?
This should speak volumes to all of us. We need to discuss this more often, not less often. We need to speak up. Only then will people feel comfortable enough to come forward. They need our ear, they need to be comforted, they need to be supported. They need to be shown the love of Jesus. They need to hear about the love of the Jesus, who they can choose to love back & follow.
Maybe it’s because, in this post, we are completely allowed to object loud & clear against the religion of a Calvinist deterministic god. This gives strength & support to the hurting ones out there, trust me. And when we can speak loudly & clearly, the ones who have been damaged by this belief system know, without a shadow of a doubt, we will defend them, stand by them, weep with them & tell the truth, right along side them.
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Jeff Brown,
Per your comment of 2:21, I fear I have offended you with my observation concerning how some people tend to refer to our Savior as Christ, while others tend to refer to him as Jesus. I put it in the same comment as one in which I was taking Brian to task, and perhaps I should have separated my observations into separate comments.
Even so, I suspect I might still have ended up giving offense. I may give offense again by attempting to clarify here, but let me try to explain. It really isn’t anything profound. It’s just that when I have attended churches where the emphasis is on getting saved, the kinds of churches where every sermon ends with an invitation, and where, really, the only purpose of doing church is evangelism; all with little or no emphasis on growing into the faith, on coming to be more like Jesus, people tend to refer to him by his title, as Christ. On the other hand, when I have attended churches where the emphasis was on a pursuit of Jesus by those who are already believers (whether or not I have always been comfortable with their methods and ecclesiastical culture, the tendency has been to refer to our Lord by his name, Jesus.
In the first sort of church, there has tended to be a great emphasis on doctrine and the process of getting justified, saved, redeemed and so on. There hasn’t been so much emphasis on Who Jesus is or what it would be like to be like Him. I liken it to entering into a contract for marriage, but not making an effort to get to know the other party between the time the proposal is made and the wedding day.
In the second sorts of churches, there has been more emphasis on what kind of person Jesus is, what it looks like to be like Him, to be in a two way relationship with him, and, most importantly HOW to be like Him and to be in a two way relationship with Him. I would liken it to a situation where an engaged couple spend every possible moment with each other in anticipation of the wedding day.
There is nothing scientific here. Just some observation I have made. Certainly there is no intention on my part to condemn people, although I suppose I tend to have my reservations about a church or system where the use of the name of Jesus does not seem to come naturally.
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Thank-you so much Lydiasellerofpurple! John Cotton is indeed a persecutor of Baptists. I’m making up a list of all supralapsarian, infralapsarian, and hyper Calvinists. Those with particularly bad sins have those sins included in the list. It is amazing that almost non-one who is either on the lists of advocates of Arminianism or mediate Soteriology have committed such sins.
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Oasis,
This is most horrible, what was done to you as a child. I am outraged. And this is in NO WAY God’s doing, whatsoever. These were evil choices made by evil-doers. God is not happy. And that’s putting it mildly.
And for you to be told, even once, that God decreed it, ordained it, is sovereign over it is ABSOLUTELY wrong. See what totally illogical, uncaring, disconnected advice this theology creates? And these were probably degreed people, which proves learning doesn’t create intelligence or wisdom. I’d say a learned person isn’t necessarily a wise or intelligent person.
I am so relieved that you know God is your defender, biggest supporter, healer! Many are unable to think or believe that after being told God wants evil to happen. It’s just too much for them.
And I love that quote, thanks. I’m going to pocket it.
You are a testament to God’s grace, love & hope. Sharing your experience helps other’s see God for who He really is. Praise Him! Hugs. Love you, Oasis! 🙂
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Jeff Brown,
Concerning the other part of your 2:21 comment, I am not so inclined to try to be conciliatory. You seem to have taken some umbrage at the way I have taken Brian to account. Yes, I am of the opinion that Brian engaged in at least two attempts to embellish his case in ways that afforded him a certain plausible deniability. I have made my case and others, including you, are free to act as jury.
I am much more concerned about Brian’s use of copyrighted material without attribution. Not only does this appear to fit the dictionary definition of plagiarism, I expect it is illegal (though I am no expert on intellectual property law). He set this material out as though he were presenting his own thoughts, then tried to excuse himself on the grounds that he had not specifically claimed the material as his own.
Then, at 9:42 this morning, Brian accuses me of deception?
Deep sigh.
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A Mom (4:18): Amen!
HUG (1:51), yeah, it seems so simple now in hindsight. I didn’t realize until detoxing from SGM how many of those thoughts were deeply rooted in my thinking. I judged fellow Christians if they seemed to believe in a simpler, what we deemed as watered down, version of the gospel. If a church wasn’t emphasizing election in its preaching, it was too fluffy and in question of being a true “gospel” teaching church.
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Monique,
Thank you for commenting! Yes, most Calvinist who understand what they believe & practice it would say such nonsense. What a big load of manure.
I believe your daughter is in heaven. She is not sinful, as most Calvinists also would say.
You are right to ask these very excellent questions of Calvinism.
And you are right, Calvinism is cruel. They worship a cruel God, so it should come as no surprise they would say cruel things or be indifferent even to evil or even practice evil without a prick of conscience.
I grieve with you. Your loss is great. I thank God you didn’t believe that unkind lady & that you know & believe in the only true God who loves us but doesn’t control us. The true evil enemy is Satan, not God.
My heart & love goes out to you, Monique.
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HUG, I’ve so enjoyed your comments, on this post in particular. Very informative. I like your writing style today as well. 🙂 Keep it coming!
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“And for you to be told, even once, that God decreed it, ordained it, is sovereign over it is ABSOLUTELY wrong. See what totally illogical, uncaring, disconnected advice this theology creates? ”
I agree A Mom.
Maybe that’s why I cannot get an answer to my Jerry Bridges knit in the womb question. No one has one…it’s a totally illogical and disconnected way of believing.
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Ryan said, “Over the last few years, I’ve been learning much Christian history and theology. It has greatly rattled my faith in God, but not destroyed it. Yet at the same time I’m very thankful for all of this knowledge I’ve gained.”
What little I’ve learned has rattled my faith as well, but it’s still intact, praise God!
And yet the foundation of my faith is stronger than before! No need to be afraid. We may have to dump bad teaching & rethink, but truth is exhilarating! 🙂
Matthew 7: 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
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Again I ask any Calvinist apologists: Why is there an inherent assumption of incompetency and/or inability to understand among those who oppose your soteriology?
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Craigvick said, “The leadership was duped. That doesn’t mean they’re not accountable. They were fooled in part by their own arrogance.”
Why would leadership be duped to this unconscionable, unbelievable extent? Why would other super-smart bigwig pastors circle the wagons? It seems they are more interested in protecting each other than the ones they should be serving. Why are none of us duped? Not for one moment? Being “learned” or having knowledge does not equal wisdom/intelligence!
I doubt for a minute the parents, looking back, would say these leaders were innocently duped, like they were. I’d say these families were twice abused.
If these leaders can’t see evil for what it is, why would we need them to tell us what to do? The authority, protection of the laity structure doesn’t even work in real life. It even harms in this instance, since the parents were instructed not to report. Is it mere coincidence, then, that they get it so wrong in action, like Calvin did?
Maybe they have zero wisdom & discernment because they can only read Bible passages thru the eyes of Calvin. It seems Calvin pushed infant baptism to save their little souls, to the neglect of their care here on earth. Why, they could even grow up just to be burned at the stake with his approval for not professing his religion. And if they were Jewish kids, they were basically trash to him. Could that be the problem?
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Ryan, You want to hear an irony? Charles II had to send a letter to the Mass Bay Colony Puritan leaders telling them to stop persecuting Quakers! He even declared that any Quaker accused of breaking the law had to be sent to England for trial because they were hanging or burning them.
And don’t let the word “congregationalism” fool anyone. The Puritans came up with it and it was tyrannical. One of those words that sounds nice but isn’t. It is the same sort of “congregationalism” in principal Dever has adopted for 9Marks.
Those Puritans. What loving guys.
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“But I will say that when I went back to my roots of man is responsible to God for his sin and responsible to choose the reconciliation Jesus Christ offers as a free gift……and our responsibility for our sin against others….. it was like total freedom. Being a slave of Christ is total freedom. It is uncanny. Being a slave of man’s ST is not freedom at all.”
Hallelujah! Yes! How wonderful to choose to be a slave to Christ. This makes tears well up in my eyes! Just like being free to serve each other, with no one over or under, is total freedom! No threat, fear, coercion, check your mind at the door, follow a pastor nonsense. Just love as Jesus loves. So simple & pure.
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“I am much more concerned about Brian’s use of copyrighted material without attribution. Not only does this appear to fit the dictionary definition of plagiarism, I expect it is illegal (though I am no expert on intellectual property law). He set this material out as though he were presenting his own thoughts, then tried to excuse himself on the grounds that he had not specifically claimed the material as his own.”
What a red herring!
Good grief…I copied and pasted an excerpt from the ESV Study Bible notes and failed to cite it as such. My word…the wording and format alone should have given you clear indication that I didn’t write it myself!
I failed to cite the origin of the quote above…I guess I’m guilty again!
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“Craigvick said, “The leadership was duped. That doesn’t mean they’re not accountable. They were fooled in part by their own arrogance.”
Some of the past leadership was charged and served time AFTER the victims families went to the authorities after being told not to by PDI pastors.
And in the lawsuits, some of the past and present leaders have been named as molesters and abusers. The authorities are investigating some of them now.
The problem is what was taught as doctrine. All sin is the same. Everyone is a vile sinner and guilty so whether victim or molester both are same. Obey your leaders. Don’t question them as they know what is best. Children were taught first time obedience and would never question an authority or tell their parents a leader did bad things to them.
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Lydia, Charles II was also a tyrant, and so was his brother James II. While not perfect, I thank God that William of Orange overthrew James II and became king. That Charles II wanted to at least give the Quakers a trial tells us just how vile the Puritans were. Didn’t the Puritans feed urine-laced cake to their dogs? What loving folks indeed.
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For those who have a problem with God ordaining whatsoever comes to pass, how do you handle a statement like this from Peter:
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
(1 Peter 2:7; 1 Peter 2:8 ESV)
Paul seems to be saying that those who do not believe were destined not to believe. Thoughts?
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No one is going to convince me these are righteous men who were duped. These pastors care about things above their wrong theology, IMO. And it’s money, prestige, power. The theology just happens to be a perfect fit to their endgame.
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And the Puritans thought pain in child labor was God ordained for women not a consequence of sin but mandated even after the Cross! So, any midwife who tried to alleviate the pain with herbs was considered a witch and stood trial. Some were burned for it. They thought women were ordained by God to suffer in child birth.
Paul Washer has taught much the same thing. He said it is God’s way to force women to remember our guilt and sin.
Yep, it is pretty bad when even the tyrants are outraged by your tyrannical behavior. Truth was by that time England was becoming a tiny bit more tolerant than the Puritans!
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Brian, Heaven forbid, but if one of your children told you they were being molested, is that the advice you would give them? God ordained it since it happened? Or as you put it, “came to pass”?
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Kerrigan Skelly has some great youtube videos on Calvinism.
Refuting Calvinism also has some helpful youtube videos. Check out the horse’s mouth videos on John Calvin & Martin Luther. You will be glad you did.
Refuting Calvinism also has some videos responding to Tony Miano.
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