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In March 2013, Dr. Timothy Keller spoke at the Faith Angle Forum. I tried to find info on this event, but could only find cached websites. Here is an excerpt from the cached site describing Ethics and Public Policy Center‘s (EPPC) Faith Angle Forum:
EPPC’s Faith Angle Forum, directed by EPPC Vice President Michael Cromartie, aims to strengthen reporting and commentary on how religious believers, religious convictions, and religiously grounded moral arguments affect American politics and public life. Since 1999, the Faith Angle Forum has brought together a select group of nationally respected journalists and distinguished scholars for in-depth discussions of some of the most crucial issues facing our nation. Twice a year, in South Beach, Miami, the Faith Angle Forum holds a two-day conference to discuss these issues in a serious fashion, miles removed from Washington’s ideological battlefields. In addition, the Faith Angle Forum runs an annual series of conferences for young journalists from media outlets around the country. (Taken from cached site.)
Below is an excerpt of the transcription of the presentation by Keller. Again, the website was removed and so this is from a cached site. I’ve included a little bit more than the video includes so you can get the context. The video is only 34 seconds long.
Before this talk on small groups, Keller is speaking about Christian communities. The quoted material in green font is what you hear on the video.
Thirdly –
MR. CROMARTIE: Mention your point about small groups.
DR. KELLER: What about them?
MR. CROMARTIE: What you said the other night, that –
DR. KELLER: Oh, yeah.
MR. CROMARTIE: Go ahead.
DR. KELLER: Yeah. I mean, for example, we have 6,000 people coming, but we have about 3,000 people in small groups. If a person goes in the hospital, the group goes to see them, tells the pastor about them, tells me. So what I have said to people is I said, “If you come to my church and you’re not in a small group, and you go in the hospital and nobody knows about it, don’t be surprised.”
(Laughter.)
I said, “Unless you put yourself not just in this massive church community but in a small community, you are not going to be on our radar. And I’m warning you right now, if you are not in one of those small groups, I don’t want to hear it if I don’t hear about it.” So, anyway, there’s ways of doing it.
I have a lot to say about small groups, but I want to hear from you. Sound off!
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Edited to add: I noticed that the above transcribed words from the cached website are slightly different from what I transcribed. Here is my transcription which matches up with the video:
We have 6,000 people coming, but we have and about 3,000 people in small groups. If a person goes in the hospital, the group goes to see them, tells the pastor over them, tells me.
So what I have said to people is I said, “If you come to my church and you’re not in a small group, and you go in the hospital and nobody knows about it, I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear it.”
I said, “Unless you put yourself not just in this church community massive, but in a small community, you’re not going to be on our radar. And I’m warning you right now if you’re not in one of those things, I don’t want to hear it if I don’t hear about it.”
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I think Tim Keller’s got it right. . His is a “massive church” and for such a big operation like Redeemer to work the congregants need to be broken down into smaller communities—into house fellowships.
In my estimation, the home groups are the real church, the veritable soil that allows for remarkable spiritual growth, for a stretching down of your roots, where souls are truly nurtured in loving and sustained christian relationship.
In such a big church you would be lost otherwise if you didn’t find the intimate group that fits your person, family or ministry. Church is a relational reality—and when a body gets a certain size people get lost and unaccounted for unless there exists this intentional effort at making sure people find their place within the body, so they aren’t neglected or their gifts and needs overlooked.
Tim Keller’s right on with this one!
To tell you the truth: perhaps the only real church I have EVER encountered was found in small personal home group environments.
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My small group experiences have been good, David. I have, however, read a lot of very bad small group experiences (check out SGMSurvivors.com). I hope some with other experiences will chime in.
But what about Keller’s attitude toward the sick person?
Wait a minute. I just noticed that the transcription I posted from the website does not match his words. I’ve got to check this out.
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Keller was not saying that he doesn’t care about the person in the hospital. He is saying that small groups keep people from falling through the gaps in a church that size. He is encouraging people to join a small group and not look to him as their ONLY spiritual guidance and support. He is preventing the totalitarianism that you adamantly oppose and providing a means for people to have loving and intimate fellowship in a huge church. He’s on your side JA.
As for bad experiences in small groups….any situation that involves people is subject to end in a bad experience. That does not make the situation inherently wrong or flawed.
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Wes,
Am I overreacting about the fact that he said he doesn’t want to hear about the sick person in the hospital who is not in a small group? What about a person who is unable to be a part of a small group? Some small groups have rules involved, maybe there are schedule conflicts, childcare issues, etc? What happens to that sick person in the hospital? There are always going to be people who slip through the cracks. Are they going to be abandoned? That’s what it seems like he is saying.
I agree with you on everything else you said, Wesley. Don’t hurt yourself falling off your chair 😉 haha
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In authoritarian churches the control is mandated all the way down to the small group level (the base of pyramid operations, if you will). . where the real, sick, spiritual exertion can be leveraged with sin sniffing, manipulations, the twisting of scripture and other such entrainments. .
Few years back I was in a home group that was totally independent of the larger church. . and the Holy Spirit led us wonderfully in step with everyone else—even with the Pastor’s Sunday Messages. We didn’t need someone over us micromanaging the what and how of our study and fellowship. .
Yeah, JA, look closely at what Keller’s saying. He’s an incredibly compassionate man. There are few living men that I respect more than he. Perhaps one of the most remarkable things I can say about the man is that I can’t say anything bad about him (considering the present sick state of the American Church). .
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Redeemer goes out of the way to make sure the least of her members don’t fall through the cracks. .
I was listening awhile back to Keller talking about the structural differences in Redeemer compared to the small church he first pastored.
In the small church everything worked organically, if there was a need the small community pulled together to help, to provide, to see that everyone was taken care of.
In the larger church, for everyone’s needs to be met they had to form programs and ministries to do the same thing smaller churches naturally are able to pull off.
I’m not a fan of big churches—the can be cold and monstrous. . but Redeemer seems to be a fairly healthy body of believers. . There’s few churches like it.
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Where is that quote from, David?
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I hear Keller saying, “I don’t want to hear your complaint that I didn’t visit you in the hospital if I didn’t know and you’re not relationally connected to anyone who could tell me you were in the hospital.”
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I agree with Monax and Wesley Roy that small groups are not necessarily problematic. I think it just depends on the overall health of a particular church to begin with.
My former church, like SGM, used the small home groups to exert more control over congregant’s lives. It’s harder for one man to maintain control over a thousand people. But, break that down into several smaller groups and the control is more manageable. The head elder then gives orders to the ministers who then make certain they are carried out.
In a healthy church the attention allows one to feel more cared for, and gives one a sense of belonging. In an unhealthy church it allows for more micromanagement.
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Don’t remember, JA. Funny you should ask, though. Last night I was trying to find an Einstein quote I knew I had somewhere. I searched for it for about 40 minutes to no avail. Wouldn’t even know where to begin remembering where I heard Keller on this. .YouTube? mp3? dunno
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Keller’s words sound course… even in the limited context above. I’m thinking of the good Samaritan, and those who passed by; they had “good” excuses too(?). While I tend to agree that small groups are very important, especially in a culture where believers flock to mega-churches, it seems difficult for leaders to appear flippant and unloving when someone, not in a small group, has a complaint against care. This is what I mean. We are all saints and we are all part of the body, even if not formally attached to a micro-group within the main local organization.
Keller opens a good point about one’s effectiveness to pastor a 6k member church, but then it seems to call into question whether or not he’s really a pastor, anymore (this is another topic). However, the stark reality of not receiving care, lost in the masses, is realistic without some other personal attachment, even in smaller contexts. So it makes me think the coarseness of his comments reveal the harshness of his theology’s impact in his heart. It seems he could have said something more gently, and with more care towards the potential issues, as to why the person in question is not in a group to begin with (in his case, 3k persons). There are many scenarios that could be considered, as to why they didn’t receive care, but it could also be as simple as time, or as complex as being a shut-in. Keller’s, “don’t complain about not getting care then,” oh my.
Maybe his comments are assuming a refusal and laziness from those who are not more involved in the community of believers. If so, could he yet woo them to the positive components of a small group membership and use the current issue, not being visited, as a good reason to join? But he didn’t do that. Again, is this the harshness of a theology that expresses itself so matter-of-factually?
In our fellowship, we have folks in and not in care groups. I think they all deserve care, because we are all called to serve one-another. We are not given dividing lines to where that care will stop. But circumstantially, if one is not in a care group, the level of care can easily be less than what would be desired, or needed. I think I’m saying the same thing as above, but sounding it out a bit more. So I guess I’m saying, those who are not in care groups may need to understand if something gets overlooked; those in care groups should not limit their care, fellowship, and friendship to merely those within their group, but to continually extend it to all those around them, in their sphere of life.
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“Maybe his comments are assuming a refusal and laziness from those who are not more involved in the community of believers. If so, could he yet woo them to the positive components of a small group membership and use the current issue, not being visited, as a good reason to join? But he didn’t do that. Again, is this the harshness of a theology that expresses itself so matter-of-factually?”
Thank you, Ric. This is exactly what I had a problem with. There may be a legitimate reason why someone is not in a group. Let’s explore that reason first rather than say you don’t want to hear about it. Again, we keep going back to love and compassion. This should not be about Tim Keller and everybody doing the way he thinks best. This is about Christians and church leaders meeting people exactly where they are, even if it means they have to walk in the trenches with them.
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I can see where it might come off harsh but the tone doesn’t sound that way to me. t makes sense. What he is saying is that if someone is complaining that no one cared about them being sick and they had been going to the church for six months, there wouldn’t be a way for anyone to know if they were sick and extend care if they only showed up on Sunday morning but weren’t connected in a smaller group within the church. How else would you envision it happening in that kind of church? Sure, if you go to a church w/ 60 people, like I do, then it is easier to get personal care outside of a small group. But among 6000? How would that work? A hospital is not allowed to release info to your minister. Some denominations have web portals allowing you to request a visit from a deacon or elder, but you’d have to be somewhat well to do that…
I agree w/ Ric – if you are in a small group, it’s good to look beyond it in extending care, especially if you have the capacity to do so (not everyone does).
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JA, with this Tim Keller post you’ve created a Straw Man that you’re now trying to hang and burn in effigy.
And now you’ve giving room for all the hyper-critics to wickedly crucify a righteous brother-in-Christ (who it seems you have severely misunderstood to say the least). I am ashamed for SSB.
Ric says: So it makes me think the coarseness of his comments reveal the harshness of his theology’s impact in his heart.
Keller says this (as solicited) in love: Don’t complain that no one visited if you’re not connected to any “body,” to any small community, if we don’t even know you, if we don’t know you were in need! We do want to know and love and care for you, but you have to be plugged-in to some “thing”—doesn’t have to be a small group if that’s not you. [Keller would say this because I know him, his heart and his theology well].
The major point here is that you can NOT be a vital part of the church-at-large if you’re not in personal relationships with those in small community. In Keller’s church every single Spirit-filled member of the body is a minister. You don’t need the Pastor to visit, really. Especially if he doesn’t know you well (and his visit might even be desired for the wrong reason). No, it’s your ministers in the small group that knows best how to love and care and minister to you. Get connected!
JA asks: What about a person who is unable to be a part of a small group? And Are they going to be abandoned? That’s what it seems like he is saying.
That’s not at all what he would ever say! In such a large and resourceful church there will be some “thing” for every “body”. Every need will be accommodated. You will even be given the freedom to start something new there, if it’s truly edifying and there’s a need for it.
Redeemer is not a “rules” church. If we have a problem with authoritarian small groups let’s address that. But let’s not denigrate a righteous man in the process.
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Basically, Keller is saying is that you have to conform to their model of management if you want the full range of benefits that their congregation has to offer. That’s fine for a business or club, but the real Church isn’t either of those. Sadly, tons of people seem comfortable with having their church be a business or club, precisely because they’re looking for benefits and perks.
If a church is so big it can’t keep up with the people in the congregation without using small groups, or be the same church to everyone, whether or not they’re in a small group, then it’s probably too big. If a pastor doesn’t have the time to shake everyone’s hand each Sunday, and get to know each person connected to those hands, then he’s not a pastor, he’s a CEO.
I’ve been in a church that tried to implement small care groups after a period of rapid growth. It was complete and utter BS. I never went to a single small group meeting, I don’t care one bit for “enforced socialization”, which is all that requiring small group membership is. It’s also insulting to the introverts in a congregation that don’t want to have to pretend to be an extrovert so the extroverts can be comfortable. If a congregation is of a size where everyone has a chance to meet everyone else in a few weeks or couple of months, small groups will naturally form that can actually be based on true friendship instead of a desire to project an imaginary intimacy to the community.
Oh, that church I went to that tried the small group experiment? Pretty soon, they didn’t need it anymore as about half of the people left. That’s about the same percentage as Keller claims in his congregation. But hey, it’s all about doing what the pastor wants, and not the people, right? My take on it? Keller doesn’t care about people unless they’re willing to do things the way he wants it. Pretty hypocritical for the man who is supposed to be the servant acting like a boss.
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It’s a bit of a double edged sword. On the one side, you want your church’s pastor and staff to care about you and all the members of the church, and to express genuine if they hear you had a need they were not aware of. You don’t want them to act like they don’t want to hear about you having a problem just because you weren’t part of a church small group which could have let them know you had a problem. But on the other side, it isn’t right or fair to expect the pastor or staff of a large church to know about every member’s problems if there isn’t a network of people through whom to communicate issues, and members shouldn’t whine about not getting personal attention from the pastor and staff when they have no way to know about their problems.
To me, it’s all in the attitude of both the pastors/staff and the members. If the pastor/staff hear that someone was hospitalized and the person was unhappy that they didn’t hear from the pastor/staff, they should express compassion and sympathy for the member’s feelings, not respond with “Well, if you were more committed and involved in a small group, we would have known, so I don’t want to hear your whining.” Even if the member is whining and being unfairly critical, does the pastor/staff really think that would be a compassionate and Christ like response? Likewise, if a member of a large church is not part of the normal structure for communicating issues and concerns to the pastor/staff, should they really expect the pastor/staff to know about what’s going on with every member all the time, and it is Christ like for the member to criticize the staff for something they had no knowledge of?
We would all do well to heed the “one another” passages of Scripture and treat each other with mutual kindness, respect, compassion and humility. And that should not be dependent on whether we think the other person is doing everything they should. Christ shows us these things in spite of our failings, not because we live up to His expectations. If we are concerned about church leadership being abusive, we should stop looking to them to meet our needs and stop putting them in a special position in our lives that is above that or any other member of the body. And if pastors/leaders want people to follow their leadership, they should act more like servants of Christ and His people and stop acting like they are bosses or authorities.
I thought it was telling that Keller (in the revised transcript) said “tells the pastor over them.” That reflects the mindset of pastors having superior rank and authority, and the expectation that the members submit to that authority. And saying “I don’t want to hear it” is just crass and uncompassionate. I can sympathize with the frustrations of large church pastors who get criticized for things they could not possibly change, but I still expect them to care about the things that cause the members pain.
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Keep in mind the context that Keller made those “harsh” comments—it wasn’t to his church but to a Forum of supposedly religious professionals, right?
And he would never be so unkind and heartless to express those truths so rawly to a hurting individual.
It was in a context that was referencing something he said in another context.
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David said:
“Keep in mind the context that Keller made those “harsh” comments—it wasn’t to his church but to a Forum of supposedly religious professionals, right?”
You’re right. But that doesn’t comfort
me in the least. Why should he be talking harshly at all?
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Julie Anne, I think this post is valid and this deserves further discussion beyond, “But my small group experiences have been good!” and “His church is so large!” I generally think well of Tim Keller, but I’m comfortable disagreeing with him on this point. And while his intention may not have been to be hurtful or callous towards those who are not in a small group, that is exactly what words like this do.
I understand the need of the pastor to set reasonable expectations when dealing with a large church. It no longer becomes practical for the senior pastor to visit every attender every time there is a need. Those demands can easily turn unreasonable. But the line, I think, that isn’t being found is a gracious response to when the requests aren’t unreasonable – when, just because you can’t be everything to everyone, you flat-out refuse to be anything to someone, preemptively. And the his response here sounds like that: a defensive comment that comes from a place of assuming the demands are unreasonable.
You’re absolutely correct when you mention that some people may not be involved in a small group for valid reasons. I am weary of the push for small groups in churches, not because I don’t believe connecting with others is important, but because so often the Small Group takes on an almost idolatrous role and the focus is on the Small Group, not on the community that it is supposed to facilitate. Small groups are one way of fostering a sense of belonging and of community. They are not the only way. And I think often by placing the “blame” of disconnection and loneliness on those who haven’t “plugged in” is harmful and tends toward blaming the victim. Many people don’t have the time to commit that most churches require in order to be seen as a member in good standing, and this places a burden on those who are probably the most isolated, most uncomfortable putting themselves out there to “find a group” and yet these are the people most in need of a church to surround and support them.
I could really go on for pages. Thank you for posting this. It is multifaceted issue that needs discussion and could benefit from being revisited, rather than defaulting to “small groups are good!” or “Tim Keller said this clever thing and this clever thing, therefore he’s not wrong and shouldn’t be questioned here.” Is he in leadership? Then absolutely he should be questioned.
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monax,
I appreciate your engaging my comments and I hope that they can be discussed, especially in areas where I don’t “get it.”
One of the reasons why I responded initially is because I’m interested in understanding why ministers’ theology, especially noted with those on the reformed end, has a harsh edge. The comments, while provided in a small context giving a large margin for our (my) being wrong, seem to express this harshness that those who do not know Keller may not understand. Keller may be a wonderful pastor, and author, I hope he is. To that end, he may even agree his words seemed an inaccurate portrayal of the way an under-shepherd, like himself, should exhibit concern for the sheep. The problem may not be Keller, but the focus on systems and a corporate mentality when ministering to the body of Christ.
To that end, after Keller’s interview, may we ask ourselves, “how may his congregation respond to people who are not members of a care group?” How might faithful care group members react to these brothers and sisters who have chosen (maybe) to not join a care group? Would they tend to be more caring, interested in helping, either way? Or, would they tend to be more provocative, and demanding membership to gain acceptance and care (I mentioned extremes for the question)? I think, honestly, it may be all over the map. Keller’s words may indeed drive his congregation to be harsh with folks who are not members of care groups.
I love care groups and believe they are very advantageous for spiritual growth! I also think its a good thing for churches to have a healthy expectation for members being joined to a care group. But I think it’s prudent to not require care group attendance in order to receive care, or to have a reasonable expectation of care from one’s congregation, and pastor. Reality does suggest the pastors won’t find out if something happens for those not in a care group, but that’s not the totality of what Keller stated. Also, we are all ‘Instruments in the Redeemer’s Hands’ (book ref here http://goo.gl/yWYVT 🙂 ) and should care for one another regardless of the level of local church involvement. That is what the pastors are training us to do, “works of ministry.” I agree that it is easier to care for folks when they are involved.
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Maybe that referenced context, ja, was a small gathering of pastors. (?)
You should hear me sometimes vent in front of my boys! It’s healthy to express such frustrations.
And it’s certainly comforting to others who’ve also experienced such unreasonable expectations—to hear someone (however feebly) find words for it.
Again, context.
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But I think it’s prudent to not require care group attendance in order to receive care
You shouldn’t infer this to be the case at Redeemer? Farthest thing from the truth for Tim Keller’s community.
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You shouldn’t infer this to be the case at Redeemer
I think Tim Keller’s words are problematic because they make it sound like one could infer this to be the case. That may not be his intent, but that is what a statement like this implies.
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monax
JUNE 29, 2013 @ 2:02 PM
But I think it’s prudent to not require care group attendance in order to receive care
You shouldn’t infer this to be the case at Redeemer? Farthest thing from the truth for Tim Keller’s community.
That’s certainly not what Keller’s own words indicate.
As far as it being a forum for pastors, I would think that he should be setting a better example for younger pastors at the conference than what he did. Just venting? Maybe he should have kept that for his own small group. As it is, he certainly reinforces my opinion of him not being a real pastor but just a CEO and Theologian-in-residence.
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It’s healthy to express such frustrations.
As someone who does – and who loves to vent – what I’ve read recently, on psychology websites and in articles, is that this isn’t actually the case. Or, if it is healthy, those of us who “need to vent” and who like to vent (and I’m definitely in that camp) tend to take it past the point of being healthy.
Venting is fun… maybe cathartic to a point… and I think it’s usually done among others who “get” the things we vent about, especially for those in roles where the majority of their time is spent with those who don’t (such as pastors). But I’m growing increasingly uncomfortable with the need to vent about those for whom we have been entrusted to care. I think it often leads to seeing these people as “problems” or something to be dealt with, or another task to check off the list. And I think that’s a dangerous line.
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monax,
I wasn’t inferring that to Redeemer. Sorry it sounded that way.
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@Eric
If a church is so big it can’t keep up with the people in the congregation without using small groups, or be the same church to everyone, whether or not they’re in a small group, then it’s probably too big. If a pastor doesn’t have the time to shake everyone’s hand each Sunday, and get to know each person connected to those hands, then he’s not a pastor, he’s a CEO.
Yes. Yes. Exactly this. I grew up in a small church (50-80) and worked at a megachurch (7,000 – 8,000) for three years. When I worked there I bought into some of the hype and believed the party line about “the church is so big, the pastor can’t be responsible for everyone.” No. To be a pastor is to be responsible for and to your congregation. It’s easy to look at the good a church does and argue that the good justifies the size, but something breaks down once a church reaches a certain size. I do think there is such a thing as too big. I don’t think it’s healthy. And I’ve avoided saying that for a while, and have settled for “it’s not best, but….” You articulate it well here. There comes a point where it is not pastoring, and it is not church. It’s something else. Maybe good is coming out of that something else… but let’s not call it pastoring.
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Oh, JA, it’s 106 down here in Houston today. 106 in Dallas feels a lot better than 106 in Houston. That’s the main reason that I’ll be moving to Dallas in the next few years.
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I mean, “redeemer” specifically… 🙂
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Post: Tim Keller Doesn’t Want to Hear about it if You are Hospitalized, but not in a Small Group
That is a misrepresentation of Tim Keller’s position and a lie.
In the soundbite he makes this clear: I don’t want to hear about it, if I don’t hear about it.
The thrust of the point being—Don’t hold me responsible for something that was off my radar.
What must be understood concerning Tim Keller’s person is this: He absolutely wants to know if you’re in need—However, you’ve got to be in community for us to be in the know. Not some spectating, anonymous attender.
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Just as you would want Keller to be gracious to those not in a small group, perhaps we should be gracious towards Keller in how one off the cuff comment is interpreted.
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Gotcha Ric.
And Sarah, I hear you. I think sometime venting (especially here at SBB) actually serves to work me up a bit. . kinda counter-healthy. . it might be.
Fwiw, I don’t see TK here venting
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David, unless one is my former pastor, most pastors will not be venting – especially when they are in a position of authority.
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I agree, Sarah. If a church is so big that it has to have multiple services, then how can they really claim to be ‘one body’? The church I currently attend has about 150 for an average attendance, and it’s very comfortable. From my experience, the feeling of community seems to start weakening after about 300 people; pretty hard for one person to be acquainted with many more people than that, unless you’re a real people-watcher.
Pastors are supposed to be shepherds (that’s still the word for shepherd in Italian). If a shepherd can’t notice when some of the sheep wander away, or give proper care to them all, then the landowner will hire another shepherd or two. If a pastor has shepherds under him, then he’s stepped out of the role of shepherd and into the job of landowner…or CEO, on these modern days.
And for anyone who has dealt with ‘middle management’ in the corporate world, you know how irritating and ineffectual they can be. Do you really want to be a part of a church that has ‘middle management’ to deal with you? Not me. There are no peons in The Church, and no one should have to put up with a preacher that talks about the congregation as peons.
Keller probably let down his guard and shot straight from the hip at that conference…which is sad, because that’s when people usually express their truest character.
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is going to church part of “being in community?” I think so. There are ways to be more in “community.” I’m not sure going all the way to, “spectating, anonymous attender” is a good way to look at it merely because one is not a member of a care group.
Maybe the person is a tithing, gift giving, Keller book buying, hard-core street-preaching believer who works nights, and two jobs to keep their bill’s paid… and was injured and ended up in the hospital… sadly, he wasn’t in “community” so no one at the Sunday morning meeting didn’t notice him being gone? Nor did they consider his spouse’s comment important to investigate when she said her husband got hurt and landed in the hospital.
The above is an example of what I was trying to convey, and what we need to hit against the sounding board.
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Did I say ‘SBB’? I meant to say SSB. .
(well, since I accidentally set my self up)
Spiritual Sounding Board. . not Spiritual Bashing Board
=]
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David said:
“What must be understood concerning Tim Keller’s person is this: He absolutely wants to know if you’re in need—However, you’ve got to be in community for us to be in the know. Not some spectating, anonymous attender.”
Yea, I get that. Again it sounds like: you don’t get anything from me unless you go by my rules. He could have said that it’s going to be difficult to get someone help if they are not in a small group.
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What must be understood concerning Tim Keller’s person is this: He absolutely wants to know if you’re in need—However, you’ve got to be in community for us to be in the know. Not some spectating, anonymous attender.
But you have to be “in community” according to Keller’s rules, i.e., part of the chain of command. He doesn’t want to be bothered if you don’t follow his rules, and he made that clear in his remarks.
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as an aside, i would be interested in hearing about the actual role of a pastor.
We see in scripture the examples of Christ to his disciples. We also see that the “elders” are to minister in the word, and prayer. This may seem to take “pastoral care” into a different direction, that is, preaching, teaching, and praying (at church, at home, at others homes, at the hospital, etc.) – Acts 6.4
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Eric,
I didn’t think Keller was saying he didn’t want to be bothered if people are not in care groups. I think he wants people to not have unrealistic expectations of hands-on pastoral care if they are not more involved in a community group.
However, the way he mentioned it has a very harsh tone no matter who he is talking to.
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Ric,
This is what he said first.“So what I have said to people is I said, “If you come to my church and you’re not in a small group, and you go in the hospital and nobody knows about it, I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear it.”
That sounds to me like he doesn’t want to be bothered, even if he did backpedal just a bit in his next statement.
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monax, I appreciate your desire to make sure everyone understands that Keller is a good guy with his heart in the right place and your willingness to openly defend him from what you feel are unfair or misrepresentative characterizations. But surely you realize that even the most abusive, authoritarian, jerkish pastors have their defenders who set them up being beyond question because of how holy and righteous they believe their pastors are, and how special their own church is. Regardless of how much Keller strives to be a follower of Christ and no matter how well the church cares for it’s members, he is not above being questioned and criticized for a remark that comes across as callous and insensitive, no matter what context he said it in. I strongly suspect that if Keller is the man you believe him to be, and if someone in his church came up to him and said they heard about his remarks and that those remarks made them feel like he didn’t care for them or that he didn’t want to hear their criticisms, he would apologize, acknowledge that his remarks were insensitive and ask for forgiveness for causing them pain. If he tried to justify his words by talking about context, and how hard it is to minister to a large church, and how the members who are not in small groups are being unfair if they expect him to know about their problems when he has no way to hear about them, the person who felt offended would not be likely to feel like he understood or cared about their feelings. In short, if he defended himself like you are defending him, people would likely conclude he was as insensitive as they suspected him to be. Your defense of him would likely gain more sympathy and support if you could concede that his critics have a point.
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Eric, good point.
I re-listened to the recording, but didn’t think he backpedaled as much as he gave a more detailed explanation to what he meant. I don’t think he was saying that he doesn’t want to hear about non-care group member’s affliction, but rather their complaint if a pastor didn’t get the word and get involved.
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Wow, this is getting borderline ridiculous. This criticism works as long as people keep cutting off the last part of Keller’s quote “… if I don’t hear about it” Keller is speaking to those who get their feelings hurt Keller didn’t visit when they didn’t let anyone know they were in the hospital. It’s unrealistic to expect a pastor to be omniscient. Clearly Keller cares: he has set up a way to care for 3000 people. That’s a decent start. Most churches struggle to care for more than 100.
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Ric, I listened to it again, too, and came away with the feeling from his last statement that he just really doesn’t want to hear any complaining at all. Just shut up and go along with his program.
The differences in how and what people hear is the reason that a pastorshould choose their words with extreme care.
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AnotherTom—what you said is good. And I accept and receive it.
What I’m pushing back against is the mis-characterization of his person. In fact, the very way that TK was introduced here was more than just a mis-representation—it was an out right lie.
And Eric, I agree—around the 300 mark a church reaches threshold.
However, if there ever were a big, healthy and loving church I think Redemeer should be commended for being such.
I think it good to consider these smaller groups to be churches-in-and-of-themselves with Redeemer actually being a church of churches.
Of course Pastor Tim Keller can’t individually visit and counsel everyone. But Christ does—who is the Head—in the person of individual members. That’s why there’s more than just TK. Other gifted ministers are given to the body to see to her various needs, overseeing the ministries of their calling, so that the word of Christ might be fullfilled: that the body of Christ at Redeemer might grow up in every way into Him who is the Head, as the whole body joins itself together, as each member is working properly according to his/her gifts, causing the whole body to mature as it builds itself up in love (Eph 4).
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obsfucation—my word for the day.
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And Eric, I agree—around the 300 mark a church reaches threshold.
I don’t know if you’ve just been to different sized churches, or been at a church that grew and hit that 300 area, but if you been in that time of growth for a church, you know how it’s not just the sense of closeness that changes, but the whole dynamic shifts. People want more from the church, more change, more involvement, more services, more music, more teaching, more preaching, etc. Probably happens in any type of group that grows through that mark, but it poses unique challenges for church and its leaders. Then they start having two Sunday morning services, and it gets kind of like the old Cheech and Chong line, “It’s the same thing, but different.” I used to run the sound at a church that had about a kilofolk attending over two services. It was enjoyable to hear the (sometimes not so) subtle changes in the sermon for each service (he was an extemporaneous preacher.)
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on a smaller scale. . even a small group has threshold and growth concerns. .
when i’ve been comfortable with my small group of say nine or so brothers and sisters. . and then another member joins the circle—i sometimes feel a loss for what we had as we move into a new constellation of personalities. .
with the entrance of new members the group dynamic inevitably changes. . and i don’t like change. . i like the familiar. . i like things to stay small and the same. . but growth is growth. .
some become resentful and reticent (“I liked it when it was just us.”)
also, the introduction of one strong personality can dramatically affect the group. .
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By now you all know that I have been “that person in the hospital” frequently in my life. Pastors tend to idealize what care groups will do. Last year when my next door neighbor was in the hospital in Dallas following a transplant, his care group did nothing for his family. Nobody from the group helped his wife, offered to pray with her, anything. My parents and I did everything. We did all of their housework, yard work, kept their dogs, stocked their fridge with meals, sat by his side when his wife came home for a couple of days, everything. 3 people took on that burden. My best friend was a nurse in the same hospital and she arranged for a hospital chaplain to pray with my neighbor and his wife. That care group did nothing until it was time to help Mrs. B. move. Let me repeat this – the care group did absolutely nothing. Mr. Keller may have the goal of care groups providing the sense of community that is needed in a megachurch but there still needs to be oversight from the pastor to make sure nobody is slipping through the cracks.
Then you have people like me. I am disabled. Please meet a disabled person and form a close friendship with them. You will realize just how isolating it is to not be able-bodied. Quite frankly we are the ones who slip through the cracks. I have had to find my community of Christian friends outside of the church setting. And you know what – they care about me as an individual, not for what I can do for the church. It is a liberating feeling. So many of my friends don’t even bother alerting their churches to hospitalizations or illnesses or anything because they are seen as being “too needy”. We know when people think of us as a burden and it sucks. It is the worst feeling in the world to know that you are a burden to someone else. And yet that is how most churches treat us. A little bit of compassion is all we need.
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I also find my authentic Christian community outside the “church,” Mandy.
. . . I would sincerely like to believe—knowing the heart of Redeemer—that the “small group” would lovingly come to you. . or to anyone who couldn’t get out to them. Isn’t that the sort of thing James deems to be “pure religion” (1:27).
But this sort of outreach is rare. . for lack of time and energy and love. Isn’t it really, though, about our lack of love. Seems the love of so so many within the church has grown cold. Hard to find Christ in the church these days.
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Eric, waving to you since we are so close in proximity at the moment. What is kilofolk?
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Oh man, I just had church with a blog reader. So sweet. I hear you, David.
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Mandy, I so appreciate you sharing the challenges you and so many face. We need a wake-up call to this reality. I need to do better and I’m so glad you say it like it is. Thank you!!
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AnotherTom, your 4:45 comment was right on!!!!
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JA, a kilofolk = 1000 people! 😉
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@Eric Fry, having lived in both the Houston area (at the end of I-45) and in the Dallas area, i can honestly say that 106 degrees feels the same in both cities. The only difference is that Dallas doesn’t have a beach that is within an hour’s drive. 🙂 There is still nothing quite like watching a sunrise on the Gulf of Mexico. In my hometown, we always said that we had two seasons: Summer and Not-Summer (also known as Tourist Season and Not Tourist Season).
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Oh sure. Duh. Lol. Thx Eric
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I have been going to Redeemer-connected churches in NYC for almost 20 years now and I think that this quote makes better sense if you put it into the proper context. The demographic of Redeemer churches is largely upper middle class professionals who think they have it all together. They don’t “need” anyone. That is the problem that Keller is addressing. A church can’t be a hospital if nobody will admit that they’re sick.
I believe that Keller is talking about casual attenders, who come to Redeemer churches in order to hear a lecture, and who are not interested in any kind of deeper involvement in the church–until they are in need, and then they blame the church for not being there for them. NYC is a place where it is very easy to keep yourself aloof and stay disconnected and think that your life is under your control. And then the bottom drops out and you realize you have no one to turn to. Keller is speaking to those people, saying that Redeemer wants to know them, wants them in community before that crisis happens–so that they can be at your bedside and visit you in the hospital.
Keller is not a top-down, authoritarian pastor. Nor is his goal to have a big church. In fact, he has taken a lot of measures to protect Redeemer from the cult of personality. Redeemer has many services throughout Manhattan, and they don’t publicize which service Keller will be at. He rotates through the locations with other pastors doing the bulk of the pastoring at each location. Redeemer wants people to come to church to be at church, not to hear a lecture by Tim Keller.
Redeemer has also planted many, many sister/daughter churches throughout NYC and the greater metropolitan area because it wants people connected locally in their neighborhoods. They have robust outreach programs focused on helping those in need, and work with other churches outside of their network.
And to the point that big churches make it hard to meet people’s needs–well, Redeemer cares about that, too. In fact, they are separating their church into smaller sites over the next few years so that the churches will be smaller. Redeemer is not a megachurch by design and I see the leadership working very hard to fight against that mentality.
Lastly, I think the transcription doesn’t do his words justice. When he says, “I don’t want to hear it,” he’s not saying, “I don’t want to hear that you’re in the hospital.” I think he’s saying, “Don’t say we weren’t there for you if you hid yourself from us.” I think it’s something a New Yorker would say with affection not condescension. I think you’re reading a meaning into those words that just isn’t there.
The comparison to the Good Samaritan is not appropriate. It would be like if the victim hid himself from sight so that nobody could see him, then complained that nobody helped him. I think that’s a fair statement and one that any pastor could make, no matter the size of the church.
Or another comparison–take a shepherd, watching over his flock. What if a bunch of sheep wandered near that shepherd to see what he was up to. Those sheep never got close enough to get the shepherd’s attention. They weren’t where the shepherd could see them. Is it the shepherd’s fault if those sheep get eaten by wolves?
It is so, so, so easy to hide in plain view in NYC. Even in a small church–I have seen it happen myself. If you come late and leave early, it’s not like anyone’s going to bump into you at Target or the grocery store and remember they saw you at church and ask you where you’ve been. The city is so dense that if you do bump into someone you know it’s like a small miracle. You do have to go out of your way to forge deeper relationships with people.
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Superfastreader, welcome and thank you for sharing your perspective. I found it very insightful.
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Appreciate the inside perspective, superfast, thanks. .
You know, I wondered how committed that demographic would be to community care. . I hear TK addressing them and their attitudes all the time. . and can hear their ephiphanic laughter in the background.
blessings to you,
David
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Waving to Mandy, too! Oh man, I just had some Texas bbq. yummmmmm!!
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Keller’s just articulating the realities of the “mini-Church within a mega-Church” model created by Rick Warren. If people don’t like his message and attitude they should probably join a smaller lower-profile Church.
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Late to the conversation, but I have a lot of respect for Keller. As others have articulated, I understand him to be saying, this (i.e. small groups) is how we encourage people to care about one another.. so seems like he’s just letting folks know not to expect him to know something he hasn’t been informed about via these channels. (–as opposed to his saying, “if you don’t follow the rules, we aren’t going to care about you”) 6,000 people is a lot of people! It’s a small town, in fact. I appreciate the discussion– thanks, JA 🙂
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Thanks for piping in, Nancy. No kidding, 6,000 is a small town! I’m really thankful to read all of the discussion here. It’s been very good. All from one anonymous e-mail this morning – haha 🙂
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What the h*** are we doing with our lives, people? If you have a problem with the way Keller leads his church, write him an email. If you have this much time to parse and re-parse every one of his words, there are probably some sick people in hospitals you’re neglecting yourselves. Or go get a job.
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Hey Andrew, welcome. You don’t see any value in discussing this? Do you understand what this blog is about? We talk a lot about high controlling churches and this video provided a great opportunity to hash things out. I thought it was very fruitful. Sorry you missed the point.
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I quote:
“What the h*** are we doing with our lives, people? If you have a problem with the way Keller leads his church, write him an email. If you have this much time to parse and re-parse every one of his words, there are probably some sick people in hospitals you’re neglecting yourselves. Or go get a job.”
Aren’t you guilty of exacting what you’re accusing others of doing? If you have a problem with this blog, why not e-mail the blog owner instead of writing a nasty post? Or just ignore it and spread your rays of sunshine at a hospital somewhere. 🙂
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Wesley Roy,
If he was really “on our side”, then why is he so flippant and blasee about the fact that his “church” is SO big that unless your in a small group your really are not worth his time. He recognises that his church is massive and that what it is, fails people. ‘My church is too big to meet your needs on a personal level, so YOU have to put in the extra effort if you expect certain needs to be met by the church I claim to be the leader of’. The system that is the modern church in the West is for the most part broken!! “Church”, as is known by today standards, is nothing like the example the Body of Christ was ment to follow in Acts.
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I think the problem is a tiered or branched model of social relationships in a church. A better model is a matrix where an individual has multiple points of relationship in a community. Small groups have replaced the Sunday sch class, WMU/men’s group, etc, that served to interconnect people, even in small to moderate sized churches. Keep in mind that the early local church was a home church!
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JA writes, Hey Andrew, welcome. You don’t see any value in discussing this? Do you understand what this blog is about? We talk a lot about high controlling churches and this video provided a great opportunity to hash things out. I thought it was very fruitful. Sorry you missed the point.
I thoroughly understand and support (with my prayers and participation) what this blog is about. Nevertheless, I do not want us to be dishonest or twisted in the process of confronting what is wrong and wicked in the church.
Beginning with the title of the post, JA, you’ve twisted Tim Keller into a place that he does not occupy. Your initial premise was entirely false. There’s infinite value in discussing the problems of high controlling churches, but your using and framing this video to serve this end has perverted that effort—and further blackened the reputation of SSB.
JA, honestly, I fear you have missed the point of Tim Keller’s comment and have slandered a good man in the process. The point, itself—whatever your point was—has been obscured by a lie.
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David,
Give me break. I used the man’s own words. This is the “sounding board” and the intent is to discuss questionable things. Be careful that you defend someone you like so much that you negate reasonable critical questions. I still think he used his words poorly regardless of his audience. He is a public figure and by now, he knows that whatever he says in a public setting (I’m sure he knew his words would be recorded), he is responsible for them. We’ve seen both positive and negative and that was my hope.
Slander? hahahaha Sue me. There’s no slander. I used his own words.
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ja. . as discussed above. . do you see now how TK did not mean what you’ve purported to be his position?
do you see how you have misconstrued the man?
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I am a strong believer in small groups. You can only connect with people on a personal level in small groups. You get to know people and you get to love them. You get to pray together and study together. You get to tell your story and hear others’ stories. You form strong bonds that carry you through hard times. Did I mention I like small groups?
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I have some questions about small groups at Redeemer for anyone who has the answers.
1) Do you have to be a member of Redeemer to be in a small group?
2) In order to be a member of Redeemer and be in a small group do you have to sign their membership covenant?
3) Does the membership covenant state you must commit to tithe and obey your elders? If someone was not a member, but was in a small group (maybe that is impossible but let’s say it happens), would that person be able to receive counseling and prayer by pastors or a visit by a pastor if in the hospital?
I could not find a copy of the membership covenant but I did find this- “why Formal Membership In A church”
“1. You have the benefit of receiving the care of, and being accountable to,
spiritual leaders.
Every believer must “obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are
keeping watch over your souls” (Hebrews 13:17). This command assumes
that you have a covenant with certain spiritual leaders. They are responsible
for you and you to them. Some people may say, “I am accountable only to
God. ” Ultimately, only God has authority over you. But the doctrine of sin
should sober us about making ourselves the sole judges over our own hearts,
“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can
understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). Hebrews 3:13 says we need others to exhort us
“daily” lest we become hardened by sin.”
Click to access biblical_basis_for_membership.pdf
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Julie Anne,
We loved having church with you yesterday. The body of Christ is truly bigger than any particular congregation or denomination. It was a refreshing experience for my entire family. You and your family are priceless. (You know I’ll be checking those game scores today.)
Glad you enjoyed the BBQ. We stopped for Tex-Mex on the way home. Some of my babies were literally grown on Tex-Mex. 🙂
(Hi, Mandy! We need to meet up one of these days.)
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How are small groups for people who are introverted–who don’t want to share their innermost thoughts and feelings and who don’t want to pray aloud without sounding like an inferior Christian because they get self-conscious praying with others listening–who are told, these are your friends now, be close? I’d rather get to know people in a church by working along side them and if there’s deep discussion, for it to come naturally.
By the way, when my former church had their small group orientation, everyone was put at tables according to their gender and marital status (single woman at one table, single men at another, marrieds at others). There it was again, the message of “don’t mix outside of your demographic”.
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I really want to be fair and balanced. I don’t know Tim Keller and I don’t know his churches. I can understand his point of view in regards to the context in which he is talking about. I do, though, think that he could have worded his thoughts a little differently. I only say that from experience.
My family and I went to a large church of almost 2,000 (at that time). We were very involved with this church. We once led a small group, my husband was a youth leader, and I worked in the children’s ministry and co-led the homeschool group. About 6 years ago I received a call from my husband’s work. He had been in a motorcycle accident and had been life-flighted to the hospital. I scrambled to get someone to watch the kids and on my drive to the hospital, I called the children’s pastor to let her know what happened. In the two days that he was in the hospital, and the week that he was recovering at home, not one pastor called or came by to see him.
The non-response from the leaders of the church, a group in which we spent an enormous amount of time and gave our money to faithfully, really hurt. When I told the children’s pastor about this she said, “Really? I told the entire staff what happened.” So, they knew. They chose not to respond.
I will say, though, if we had been a family that had recently attended, or did not attend regularly, and didn’t know any of the pastors, I would not have expected them to respond.
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One more thing-
At Redeemer small groups, what do you study? Anything you want in the bible, or do you do specific studies based on books (by Keller and or others)? Thanks.
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Shannon,
In most of the small groups I’ve been involved with, one of two things would happen to you. Either you would eventually feel comfortable enough to share a little or you would be turned off by someone who is more vocal and you’d leave the group. The best groups are those that aren’t staged. They aren’t put together like the Monkees but they are open and there is a variety. Some of the groups I’ve been in were men only and some were mixed. I liked both for different reasons.
I think the way your church did it was wrong but I wasn’t there to see the setting. Does your church have Sunday school or adult bible studies? Those are 2 possible ways to get in small groups.
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Oh Kathi, I’m so sorry. Why is it that time and time again, those who call themselves Christians, who are to be the most loving and caring, are so unfriendly and uncaring? I’ve seen similar at my old church.
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I agree, Gary–the best groups aren’t staged. I don’t attend my old church any more because of changes they made, but adult Sunday School was big and just another sermon, really. And adult Bible studies were again divided into groups–young here, women only there, etc. And the Wednesday night service was called Bible study, but it was just another service–sit and listen. I did get to meet others through working with the young girls’ group, but they weren’t lasting friendships. Once people get married and have children, that’s usually it for being friends with a single person. But then they’re taught by the church in creating these segregated groups, marrieds and singles don’t mix.
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I have never heard that you need to be a member to be in a small group at Redeemer or any of the Redeemer-affiliated churches. People are encouraged to become members but it’s not required to receive care from the church. Many people have gotten help through our churches without being members or even being regular attenders–or even being a believer! There’s no prerequisite for receiving care.
Membership is about making an outward commitment to the church and its mission and ministries. If you want to volunteer for a ministry or be a small group leader, then church membership is required. That’s a voluntary commitment that you make because you want to but you are never forced to. You are not required to tithe.
As a member, you put yourselves under the authority of the elders. Those elders, however, submit themselves to the session and to the PCA. There are checks and balances in place. Membership in the PCA is about a covenant made to the church. You pledge to serve the church and help her in her mission; she pledges to care for you spiritually, emotionally, and physically. As part of the elder training process, the elders learn that they are taking on an extra responsibility–that if they cause anyone to go astray, then they will answer for that.
Any human system has within it the potential for exploitation. No denomination or theological system gets it 100% right. No human person is free from sin or error. I think that Redeemer et al understand and believe this in thought and practice. I don’t see Redeemer and its family of churches departing from a historical understanding of church leadership/membership, nor creating conditions for membership that are extra-biblical or spiritually abusive. If anything, it’s all too easy to participate in all Redeemer has to offer without ever giving anything back.
I have been in many small groups throughout the years and mostly they are organized by neighborhood, not by demographic. We have studied books of the Bible, books written by contemporary authors (RC Sproul, Lysa TerKeurst, and others), done topical studies, discussed the sermon, and even just had prayer time and fellowship. We have shared meals and done community outreach. We even welcome non-believers. My current church has a discussion group that is discussing Christopher Hitchens’ God is Not Great and there are now some atheists in my neighborhood who love our church and who our church would help if they needed it. We do community outreach in the public schools and other secular organizations, giving time and even money to them.
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BTDT,
Your family was a delight. I think my cute niece will miss her new friends today. Thank you so much for coming out to meet me. It’s been the highlight of my trip.
Hugs!
JA
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Shannon, you brought up an interesting aspect of small groups that hasn’t been discussed: forming them by demographics of marrieds, singles, age, etc. we’ve been in some designated by neighborhoods. That made sense to me because when there was a need, we were in close proximity to be of real assistance. The all-singles group thing could pose other issues.
Questions I would have: how rigid or flexible are these defined groups? What if you didn’t click there? Could you have the freedom to change groups?
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Dear Julie Anne,
I just want to clarify that I didn’t care for Keller’s attitude either and have no idea why people are attracted to mega-Churches, that are inherently going to have problems focusing on the needs of individual members, generally. However, if one does run a 6000 member community, I suppose there’s a reality to insisting that news be sent up bureaucratic channels so I see his point.
At least Keller’s being honest about not giving the proverbial time of day to people who don’t sign up for his whole Church package.
However, that mentality is part of the reason I thought Andrew’s less-than-pleasant comment above was also illogical. If Keller doesn’t care about hospitalized Church members who aren’t part of small Care Groups, do you think he’s going to answer e-mails from the public? Plus being in the limelight means that people are going to parse your words and debate what you’ve said, on the internet, in 2013. And many people who aren’t debating serious issues on blogs are not visiting the sick or working 4 jobs. They’re watching the Bachelor and posting on Facebook.
Sometimes I really wish folks would buy a $10 book on logic, as I and many other have done prior to getting into debates on blogs, and look up the meaning of “slander” for that matter. Slandering someone means you’ve said something about them that is patently untrue. It does NOT mean that you’ve stated an opinion about someone’s actions that are simply unflattering.
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oh geez. Frankly, I HATE small groups, care groups, and this is why: http://profligatetruth.com/2013/05/10/the-toxicity-of-required-friendships/
being in CLC for 4 years, and my husband having been there for over 20 years, we both experienced this sense of being totally forgotten unless you were in a group of sorts. We will probably never end up at a big church again. I don’t like the feeling of being an ant in a world of giants.
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Caleigh,
It’s the nature of large churches to either ignore the individual or to chew them up and spit them out. It cannot be helped. It’s like any large university or corporation. My church is an exception. There is no forced friendship but the fact is how you gonna meet and get to know anyone except in a small group? I don’t see how it could happen.
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@BTDT, Julie Anne can pass along my email address to you. I would love to meet up with you sometime. I travel to the DFW area frequently to visit friends and family and to escape the infamous east tx rednecks for a few hours. To be perfectly honest, I use my friends and family as an excuse to get there. I really just want to eat my way through the many delicious restaurants. 😀
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I have a good friend who’s been following ja’blog, intermittently, for a year now. As far as I know he’s never left a comment. Nevertheless, he has read enough here and there to have formed an opinion of SSB.
This morning his wife was unexpectedly called to work, so he called me and asked if I wanted to join him in visiting a five-year-old church plant here in the East End of Pittsburgh called—of all names—Redeemer. I went. . . . and heard the pastor quote Tim Keller in his message.
However, I do not want to talk about this morning’s church experience, or congregants being broken down into “demographics,” or “sit and listen” Bible Studies—all of which I’d otherwise love to discuss in another thread, another time. But not here.
Why?
Well, there’s an enormous elephant in the room that’s apparently so huge that not everyone can see it.
After church my friend and I spent much of the afternoon talking—as we so often do. And I shared with him how I felt sick over this Tim Keller thread. He responded by telling me he had read all the comments here up to last night. So I asked for his thoughts.
He affirmed the train of logic that some above (including myself) were attempting to lay out. He also employed the term “sin sniffing” as it ungraciously applies here to what’s being done to TK. Yet the biggest thing he shared with me that I believe truly hit the mark was the spiritual responsibility Julie Anne has as “the shepherdess” (as I call her) of this community.
Julie Anne, to those in the know, who know TK and Redeemer—you circulated a lie. . . and now that lie is being echoed in the hearts of others, in the words of readers such as Janna Chan.
This is her reiteration: If Keller doesn’t care about hospitalized Church members who aren’t part of small Care Groups, do you think he’s. . .
She’s echoing your false assumption and then grounding her own reasoning based upon it. . .
Truth is Keller cares immensely. . . (but that’s been covered above)
Janna Chan goes on to say: Sometimes I really wish folks would buy a $10 book on logic, as I and many other have done prior to getting into debates on blogs, and look up the meaning of “slander” for that matter.
Very interesting. . .
And I did, this morning, look up the legal definition of “slander” before I posted my comment.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander
“slander n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.”
What has been done to Tim Keller here is outright slander.
This is the enormous elephant in the room.
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I think Miss Julie Anne and other commenters here have picked up on a big question – how do we form a healthy sense of community in modern churches? Many churches no longer have Sunday School or other committees that foster close friendships that then create community. Our modern culture has changed so much in the last 20 years but our church culture hasn’t quite caught up. In light of the difficulties that mega churches present, how do we find community that we can lean on in times of need? How do we meet the needs of diverse populations? On paper, small groups look like the perfect answer to that dilemma but we have seen problems arise. I don’t know the answers to these questions. For myself, the bigger question is, how do I avoid falling into the traps of “not my problem” or “I don’t have time”? I have a lot to think about as I drive approximately 800 miles in the next 2 days.
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Dear Monax:
First of all, I didn’t base my comments about Keller on what Julie Anne or anyone else said. Suggesting otherwise was a faulty assumption on your part. I based my analyses of the issues at hand on the primary source above, the video transcription. Forgive me if I’m wrong but you don’t appear to be claiming that the primary source is inaccurate, you’re just saying you don’t like the conclusions people have drawn from it.
You looked up the word “slander’ but you clearly don’t understand it, and the irony is that you’ve now slandered others by making the unsubstantiated claim that we’ve told lies. Unless you’re arguing that the video’s transcription is inaccurate, no one here has told any lies, they’ve merely expressed opinions about what Mr. Keller said.
If you disagree with what I’ve said please tell me what lies, as defined as statements reflecting factual errors, Julie Anne and I have spread?
Also, please permit me to suggest you invest $9.47 in the following book on logical fallacies:
http://www.amazon.com/Nonsense-Herrings-Sacred-Everyday-Language/dp/0975366262/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372645493&sr=8-1&keywords=nonsense+a+handbook+of+logical+fallacies
I reference it all the time. 🙂
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“Well, there’s an enormous elephant in the room that’s apparently so huge that not everyone can see it.”
Perhaps no one can see it because it’s not really there. 🙂
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Sorry, Julie Anne. I didn’t know the link would create a giant picture.
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@Gary, I’d be cautious about assuming your church is the exception. I hope they are – but most aren’t. If any. I thought the same thing about the church where I worked, but it wasn’t the exception. I was just too isolated and surrounded by others on staff to realize it.
I’ve met and gotten to know a lot of people in my life, and none of them have been in small groups. They’ve been through mutual interests, school, work, mutual friends, or proximity. I’ve met people in small groups but none of those have been lasting friendships. It can happen – but it doesn’t mean it is the only place it happens. People can form relationships and build friendships outside of small groups.
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Hey y’all (throwin’ a little Texan in here), I’ve been playing volleyball mom while my daughter has been playing at Nationals. It looks like 3 of Janna’s comments were held up in moderation. I’m not sure why. Ok, I’m going to try to catch up. Janna – don’t worry about the big picture. I’m not 🙂
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Thanks, Julie Anne. The big picture of the book I recommended comes and goes. Good luck with game. No need to hurry to catch up. We’ve just both been creatively accused of spreading slander. I imagine that happens to you as often as it happens to me.
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David said to me:
“Julie Anne, to those in the know, who know TK and Redeemer—you circulated a lie. . . and now that lie is being echoed in the hearts of others, in the words of readers such as Janna Chan.”
David, that is not slander.
Read it again. She said: If Keller doesn’t care about hospitalized Church members who aren’t part of small Care Groups, do you think he’s going to answer e-mails from the public?
#1: Note the key word “if.” That removes any possibility of slander. Perhaps you owe Janna an apology.
#2: Slander is spoken/oral. The words you are referring to were written.
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David’s been a dear friend for over a year. We’ll get it worked out. He wrote the most heartfelt words to me on another thread last night and made me cry. I love his passion and I know his heart. I wish I could sit and have a beer with him and hash this out 🙂
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What’s going on with that picture? Why does it come and go? Weird. Who can explain this to me? haha ::::insert creepy music::::
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Ok, your misrepresentation of Keller’s position is not technically slander (oral/spoken) but in the legal category of libel (the written form of defamation). I just learned something this evening. Thank you.
With that in mind I’m alright retracting the defamation angle on this. But please read what I wrote carefully. I didn’t say (i.e., I didn’t write) that Janna was being slanderous. . only you. I said she bought into your lie and is reiterating it.
This, Julie Anne, is the outright LIE: Tim Keller Doesn’t Want to Hear about it if You are Hospitalized, but not in a Small Group.
You’ve twisted the syntax of his words to read and to mean something that he never said or meant.
Julie Anne. . I am utterly sick.
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