Crazy Things Church Leaders Say & Do, John Piper, Troubling Tweets

John Piper’s Tweet During Devastating Twister Aftermath

Julie Anne

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So, I’m minding my own business catching up on the latest Twitter news and it is filled with tweets about the devastating aftermath of the Twister in Oklahoma that as of this posting has 20 confirmed deaths and 145 people hospitalized.  People are still being pulled from the rubble.  These are the types of tweets I am reading:

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But then I see this:

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And I wonder is this love?   

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293 thoughts on “John Piper’s Tweet During Devastating Twister Aftermath”

  3. Oh David (monax)- – really? Let me ask you – my long-time blog friend. Would you have tweeted it? Just as is? No changes? Really? Come on, David. I want to understand you, I just do not.

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  4. “Stone John Piper rant” or keeping John Piper accountable for his own words and theology — the same words he uses during every tragedy? Where were you all when Pat Robertson did the same, time and time again?

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  5. One more thing on my mind before I back away (or try to…). I have never, NEVER figured out why many neo-reformed guys rip upon Pat Robertson for his over the top, lunacy statements, and then turn around and rally around John Piper who basically does that exact same thing. It could be child abuse at Penn State, natural disasters, or countless other issues but the point is the only thing the Neo Reformed crowd knows how to do correctly is practice hypocrisy. Pure unadulterated hypocrisy. This stuff so gets under my skin because it drove me away from faith for years. Isn’t it amazing how the secular crowd on Twitter has the capacity to show more love than a Christian like John Piper and his lemmings. End rant….

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  6. Just out of curiosity… How many of y’all have personally been through a natural disaster and lost your home, your belongings, your community, your life as you know it?

    I have. I lost my family home to Hurricane Ike. To someone who is deep in the midst of the trauma of a natural disaster, Piper’s first tweet is a slap in the face. I don’t care what his intention was or his background or the overall message of Job. To quote Job 1:19 in these circumstances was just plain wrong. I know that everyone here upholds the basic command of “respect the victim” when it comes to those who have experienced any type of abuse, whether its spiritual, physical, emotional or sexual in nature. We need to extend that command to ALL victims, including those who have been affected by natural disasters. Please speak words of comfort, of solace, of love, of compassion to us. Now is not the time for deep theological discussions. Now is not the time to find ways to defend men whose messages hurt the victims. Now IS the time to ask “How can I help? What do you need? How may I best support you and your community? May I buy gift cards for your family?”

    Please everyone stop your in-fighting. Your spiritual leaders should be pouring out love and compassion- demand it of them. Now is the perfect time to live out Mark 12:31 “Love your neighbor as yourself”.

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  7. It is no surprise or confusing why so many have taken offense at this tweet. These verses have been quoted to me to explain how disasters are caused/ordained by God. This is a hard subject for me and I’m sure for many others.

    Our second pregnancy resulted in twins, but we lost one (a daughter) to SIDS at 3 months. I was told that God had “planned” her death by one person, and actually told by another that if I had just prayed a certain way, then she wouldn’t have died. How crazy is that????

    So, when I hear those verses quoted in the aftermath of a crisis, it’s not a stretch to see the connection: Disaster = God’s plan and I could have prevented it if I had “prayed” more or done something different spiritually.

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  8. Eagle – to be honest, I am not even a fan of John Piper.. I respect him but for the most part do not agree with his theology, But fair is fair and to defend on face value what he said DOES NOT make me a lemming… but neither do i think he should be SHOVED OFF THE CLIFF

    This is a BLOG STONING.. very interesting, i never saw one close up before.

    BUT.. that is no what this post is about. it is about the tragedy of OK, compared with the tragedy recorded in Job. To assume more is simply WRONG. I am disappointed that RachelHeldEvans ever started this post.. It should be deleted.

    There are enough REAL issues that cause angst in the church without picking fights that are not even real.

    ONE BODY, MANY PARTS?.. then release this CHOKE HOLD.

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  9. One more thing on my mind before I back away (or try to…). I have never, NEVER figured out why many neo-reformed guys rip upon Pat Robertson for his over the top, lunacy statements, and then turn around and rally around John Piper who basically does that exact same thing.

    I suspect a major factor is “He’s an A-hole, but he’s OUR A-hole!”

    Like how in Georgia (the one south of Russia) they still erect statues of Stalin.

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  10. ja writes: Oh David (monax)- – really? Let me ask you – my long-time blog friend. Would you have tweeted it? Just as is? No changes? Really? Come on, David. I want to understand you, I just do not.

    No, sis, I wouldn’t have been so insensitive as to have tweeted such a thing.

    But I do understand the culture of ignorance it was tweet out of and wouldn’t—in this instance—have called my brother John Piper out as an “ass” for such an understandable indiscretion.

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  11. For those that are defending the tweet saying that the whole book of Job, or even the section, shoul be thought in context, please look at the tweet again. Piper did not quote or reference a passage, chapter, or book, he referenced a single verse. The verse he picked was relatable to the tragedy only in such that both involve children dying at the hands of a strong wind. If Piper wanted the context to be seen, he should have referenced the passage, not only this one verse. By referencing only this one verse, and this verse in particular, it gives the appearance of being insensitive at best, and relaying the idea of a judgement on the families at worst. Then, rather than issue an apology to clear up any misunderstanding, he merely deletes the tweet, sweeping it under the rug. He did the wrong thing, and he isn’t owning up to it.

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  12. Yes, it was meant in love. Job like the people who lost kids was devastated and could see no mercy in the calamity. God though had not forgotten Job and in extension the now grieving Oklahomans. Also the Job text implies some calamities though passively allowed by God have their origin in demonic evil. Piper has in the past said on twitter bombastic stuff but this wasn’t meant in that context. Also Twitter is not the medium for such a message with so few (those familiar with the biblical narrative and verse context) getting his contextual point that in a fallen world calamity unexpectantly happens even to good people like Job and the grieving Oklahomans.

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  13. Mandy, you are correct.

    If a friend had just lost a loved one, would you tell that person that this is part of God’s plan, or would you just shut up and be with that person? I recall, dimly, the scene in “Shadowlands” where one of Lewis’ friends tells him, soon after his wife died, something similar to the above. Lewis’ reply was (paraphrasing) “No, this is bad, it’s just bad.” Lewis knew the theology, and he didn’t want to hear it.

    Tweeting to thousands is not the exact same type of situation, but, if pastors simply have to share their thoughts with us, they should make them ones of sheer comfort.

    I tremble as I type this, but I think Calvinism’s (not the “New Calvinism”) view of God’s sovereignty is biblical. (There are aspects of Calvinism that are not, imo.) So I pretty much agree with Piper on this subject. I realize that many here believe that this view makes God a monster. In recent years, however, it is Piper who comes closer to this description because he keeps trying to speak for God after tragedies and disasters, and he is, well, inadequate to the task. He leaves no room for mystery, the things we can’t know. And on other subjects, such as male-female relationships, he simply lays down the law, rabbinically attempting to cover all possible situations.

    At his best, Piper is a solid scholar, but something seems to have happened to him as he became lionized by many. Not everyone can be a Spurgeon, and not be too affected by fame and praise.

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  14. Mandy and Jeff B, I appreciate your comments. .

    What did Job say to his friends who were attempting to comfort and advise with their words?

    He said, “If you would be silent, and let that be your wisdom” (Job 13:5).

    Truth!

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  15. JoeJoe and Jeff Brown, thank you. You get it. I am dealing with a lot of flashbacks right now and that tweet does not help. It surely does not help those who are in the middle of the destruction. If Piper had wanted to reference the entire book of Job, he should have. To quote just that verse was incredibly hurtful and the wrong thing to do.

    I am begging all of you out there, please put yourselves in the places of those affected. Look at it from their perspective. Then ask yourselves, what is the appropriate response? How will my words and my actions be viewed by the victims? If there is the potential that any words or actions may hurt someone, find another way to express yourself. I have been the person sitting by my computer, watching the images of my devastated hometown, hoping against hope that things are okay. I have been the person searching the lists of the missing and hoping my friends and loved ones are safe. I have driven through an entire missing neighborhood and I have cried at the devastation. I have done all of this with the cruel words of strangers playing through my head, reminding me over and over that they possess some supernatural knowledge of God’s role in the tragedy and the cause of it. I know what its like to grieve with your neighbors, to beg insurance companies for assistance and be denied. And all the while my church home in college couldn’t be bothered to help beyond finding a Bible to replace the one my brother lost. That was the thing that hurt the most – the lack of love shown by my fellow believers.

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  16. Will Adair: Welcome to the blog. I said the same thing to Denny Burk about Twitter not being a good medium for such a message. (Although he did seem to pull it together nicely for the next tweet, which I posted above in the comments.)

    This kind of stuff gets a bit confusing because I’m sure in Piper’s mind, what he was sending was something they needed to hear – – in that short tweet with no further explanation.

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  17. Mandy – -Thanks for sharing your tornado experience. That must have been horrific. Your perspective is very helpful to the discussion so we can get a better understanding of what is beneficial to someone in this kind of a crisis. I’m sorry this is bringing up flashbacks for you – it makes sense that it would.

    When it comes to something of this level of tragedy, when one is confronted with death and survival, uncertainty of housing, where family friends are, there are probably very few words that would be of comfort. I imagine the best way to show love would be in practical ways and in listening and being available.

    The story about the church only replacing your brother’s bible was heartless.

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  18. David, Re 3:34 – – You wouldn’t have called him that because you are nicer than me. 🙂

    However, I don’t buy it as an understandable indiscretion. Follow his tweets for a while and acquaint yourself with them and you will see what I mean.

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  20. JA, I don’t know if it’s a matter of me being nicer than you—I truly don’t think that’s the case. I know our hearts. We’re both passionately dedicated to the deliverance and freedom of all God’s children. Freedom, in this instance, from being slapped around by a bible verse, however well-intentioned our “minister of Christ” was attempting to be. Dear Jesus deliver us from such abuses.

    I would bet, Julie Anne, that I’ve been a bigger ass than you have been in life—even though you’ve got a couple more years on me. Much of my being such was in my younger years anyway, but I would still make that bet. Unless there’s something I don’t know about you.

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  25. For those who defend Piper…May God help you. You all seem to know the context of Piper’s post. But lets not forget that the calamity on Job was a BET (for those who think that gambling is a sin, I scoff at you, and laugh at you) that God made with the devil. So whose soul was God playing with for his good pleasure in Oklahoma?

    Natural disasters are not SUPERNATURAL disasters. Job’s calamities were supernatural, not natural. Whirlwinds happen on a normal basis in Oklahoma, just as the whirlpool happens in a sink when going down the drain.

    Accidents happen, not having anything to do with God (Luke 13).

    This had nothing to do with God at all. God’s sovereignty? Only to the Calvinist, and Westboro Baptists.

    Ed

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  26. Here is a tweet that expounds on John Pipers earlier tweet

    John Piper @JohnPiper
    My hope and prayer for Oklahoma is that the raw realism of Job’s losses will point us all to his God “compassionate and merciful.” Jam.5:11

    sooo does this clarify the feelings of John Piper or do you na-sayers think he is lying now but truthfully hateful earlier.

    if you dont take this into account you are not being fair,

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  27. thebackpewguy,

    The ONLY reference in the New Test on Job is one verse (James 5:11). What is the context, or as the Calvinists love to say, the exegesis, of James Chapter 5?

    I think that I am being fair.

    James 5:11 has nothing to do with any of this at all. Piper isn’t expounding at all. He is covering his ass. If he was expounding, he wouldn’t have deleted.

    His first post: God takes away your children in a wind.

    His second post: Be patient.

    Those two posts have nothing to do with each other.

    Ed

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  28. There are so many great points on this thread. Bottom line is, a tragedy is NOT the time to go all “sound doctrine” on people.

    As I pondered A Reader’s caution to not lump Piper together with Robertson and the like, and his dislike of such strong language as calling him the ass of Christianity, a light bulb came on about a pattern I see all over the Neo Calvinist world: Within it, there is such a strong culture of CONTROL, that the leaders who do the controlling have even been brainwashed to the degree that they believe that any STRONG REACTION is sin. There is this idea that Christians are to always be self controlled, nice, polite people. I think this is actually one of the main problems that allowed the evil in SG to continue for so long. Kids were controlled so heavily that they were disciplined (as in, bottoms whooped) for the smallest things like not making eye contact with an adult, or not being joyful as they obeyed. I can understand how a “good Christian” (whatever that means, since we’re all redeemed sinners) could perceive such language as too harsh and overly critical. However, we have to be able to discern injustice and be bold enough to confront it. There is a time to be polite. There is also a time to speak out against injustice.

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  29. Julie Anne, thank you. You get it. So many people don’t. So many times I was told by fellow believers “You need to smile more. God doesn’t like it when you frown. You still have your family and your health (which is a huge lie – everybody knew that my body was in bad shape). You shouldn’t be upset- its just material things. Don’t worry about it – everything will work out. As long as God is glorified, nothing else matters.” The list goes on. What people need to understand is that you cannot tell someone in this situation not to worry about things. You cannot force them to smile. You cannot offer vague promises that things will eventually get better. You cannot offer random Bible verses with a prolonged explanation of how it applies to the situation. You can hug them. You can listen. You can actively help them by meeting practical needs. Meet them where they are and love them where they are. Remind them that Jesus cried too and there is no shame in it. Walk through the stages of grief but don’t rush it. If need be, suggest professional counseling. Let them tell their stories as often as it takes until they can do so with peace.

    There was one couple who taught me about a gracious response in the face of tragedy. My professor and mentor, Dr. B., asked me to share my story with him and his wife. They listened and asked questions and looked at the pictures of the devastation. They told me to stop listening to my church friends and leaders and that it was okay not to smile. It was okay to be mad at God. It was okay to ask Him the hard questions. And it was okay to still love Him even when I had lost everything. I poured out my entire story to them, even told how I couldn’t afford to buy food and necessities for my family cats now that they were living with me. When I got back to my apartment later that day I found 100 pounds of cat food and 100 pounds of cat litter on my doorstep with a note that said “Never forget how strong you are. We love you. -The B Family”. I broke down and cried for hours. For once the burden was lifted off my shoulders. I no longer had to live up to lofty standards set by my religious community. I didn’t have to search for hidden meanings in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy. And I didn’t have to skip buying groceries for myself to feed my cats.

    There are some here who are so intent on defending Mr. Piper that they have forgotten that his words still hurt victims. Please learn from my story and focus more on ways you can show love to those who were affected. Never let a focus on theology or doctrine distract you from the need to simply love your neighbor. It might help to read Pastor Wade Burleson’s blog post on this subject: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/05/when-love-trumps-theology-moore-tornado.html

    *Julie Anne, I’m sorry for writing such long comments here. I hope I haven’t taken over your blog. 🙂

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  30. Embarassed to see the eagerness of believers to latch onto another believer and devour them like piranhas. Sometimes people do foolish things and don’t know they’re foolish. Show Piper some grace, he needs it. As do you. As do my neighbors in OKC.
    Maybe instead of spewing vitriol at Piper we should be on our knees in prayer. Praying for Oklahoma and for Piper.

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  31. Mandy- I loved & wept over your “long comment”

    Your post is why I love visiting here…To hear the stories of my beloved sisters & brothers in Christ. Thank You for sharing from such a vulnerable & sacred place.

    ChapmanedED24- You Rock. Learning much from your posts. You wrote:
    “The ONLY reference in the New Test on Job is one verse (James 5:11). What is the context, or as the Calvinists love to say, the exegesis, of James Chapter 5?

    I think that I am being fair.

    James 5:11 has nothing to do with any of this at all. Piper isn’t expounding at all. He is covering his ass. If he was expounding, he wouldn’t have deleted.”

    Wow!

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  32. Gary W
    May 21, 2013 @ 11:47 AM

    Gail,
    What you report Piper as having said by way of apology doesn’t appear to me to be a apology for his unfortunate tweet.

    I wrote: “I am confused. A commenter at internet monk said that Piper apologized… Did I miss something?”

    Just to be clear, I wasn’t reporting that Piper had apologized, only saying that I was confused because a commenter at Internet Monk said he apologized…

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  34. Mandy – This SSB is for you. You’ve got the mic. Talk. I’m listening and so are others. And I know you can’t see me, but your cat story had me in tears. That was love. The whole story touched me. Thank you!

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  35. Hi Blake – Welcome. Show Piper grace? What I think he really needs is accountability. You say your neighbors in OKC need grace. Go read Mandy’s comments and see what her response was to Piper’s tweet. She knows about the destruction of tornadoes first-hand.

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  36. Gail,

    A really good friend of mine loves Piper. When I go over to his house, he used to want to play a YouTube video on one of his sermons. My friend has got a twinge of Calvinism in him still, not as much as he used to. I am highly critical of the experts from the Pulpit, but very humble to the simple. I have learned a lot from your posts, too, as well as what Mandy wrote, and others as well. I find that the simple are closer to God than the religious experts who profess to be the spokesperson FOR God, so that we must go to the experts to hear FROM God.

    Ed

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  37. Blake wrote
    May 21, 2013 @ 8:55 PM

    “Embarassed to see the eagerness of believers to latch onto another believer and devour them like piranhas. Sometimes people do foolish things and don’t know they’re foolish. Show Piper some grace, he needs it. As do you. As do my neighbors in OKC.
    Maybe instead of spewing vitriol at Piper we should be on our knees in prayer. Praying for Oklahoma and for Piper.”

    Piper has a record of saying ridiculous remarks after a tragedy. He might serve the world better by praying & keeping his mouth shut.

    Blake, I will pray for you that you never have to undergo sufferings that wrings your heart out. No one here is eager to devour Piper like piranhas, his text was inappropriate for those who suffered loss & death, and it is sad to me that you cannot see the impact of his text on a suffering world. It was insensitive to say the least, and good for Piper that he deleted it.

    Curious to know, how you know or assume, that we are not on our knee’s for Oklahoma & Piper?

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  38. Ed, 1st post.. awkward timing but was true and sobering.. HORRIBLE STORM killed Job’s family.. much like Oklahoma storm.. BOTH TRAGIC..Both sudden,, and both bitter true

    2nd post a prayer that Oklahoma be restored like Job was restored by the loving God of Job and those hurt in Oklahoma

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  39. I think the point is to draw people to the context of the verse, both the immediate context and the greater context of Job as a whole. First off, it’s critical to note the following verse: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped (Job 1:20 NASB).

    What was Job’s response? To mourn and worship. The following two verses are critical as well.

    To ignore this is to ignore what I think is the most important thing about what Piper is saying: in the face of tragedy we should mourn and worship (v. 20) and not blame God (v. 22).

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  40. Gail,

    Thank you for clarifying that you weren’t intending to say Piper had issued an apology, and my apologies for having not responded to what you actually said. I do hope it will be o.k. with you if I stand by my observation regarding what somebody, somewhere, reports Piper as having said. If Piper really did “apologize” for using a sentence in which a large number of words starting with the same letter, his “apology” appears to have been no more than an attempt to draw attention to his own cleverness. Even so, I had best not be too critical. It’s the sort of thing I might do myself were I to think of it.

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  41. thebackpewguy,

    First Post:
    Job’s storm was based on a bet between God and Satan. Bad analogy altogether, linking Oklahoma to Job. Supernatural vs. Natural. Take away Job’s family, and see if he curses God. Take away the families of Oklahoma, and see if they curse God, too?

    Second Post:
    James 5:11 is about the patience of Job in his suffering. Job got 2 times the things that he lost. What will the victims in Oklahoma get for their suffering? Preaching of God’s sovereignty, that God did it for his pleasure, that God gets his kicks out of calamity, calling it his good pleasure? Well, okee dokee then.

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  42. Chapmened24- ” I am highly critical of the experts from the Pulpit, but very humble to the simple. I have learned a lot from your posts, too, as well as what Mandy wrote, and others as well. I find that the simple are closer to God than the religious experts who profess to be the spokesperson FOR God, so that we must go to the experts to hear FROM God.

    Ed, I just wanted to acknowledge your lovely & encouraging comment…

    Yup, I am simple,.

    I keep this nugget tucked inside: But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

    You have a gift & this simple gal clings to your interpretation… In His Mercy!

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  43. It is interesting the way so many have come forward to defend Dr. John Piper. I especially wonder that so many new or infrequent commentors have come to Dr. Piper’s defense in this thread. Why expend so much energy, why engage in such extraordinary mental gymnastics, defending Dr. Piper in all his apparent insensitivity when so many people are at this moment recovering from tragic loss?

    Why would anybody who does not ordinarily participate here think they have any business coming to this spiritual abuse survivors blog to lecture people who have suffered greatly at the hands of “pastors” and other religious leaders. Have these new commentors been expelled, ostracized, shunned and sued by people who have abused their spiritual authority? Have they been marginalized, shamed or guilt tripped by those who, like Dr. Piper, call themselves pastors? Have any of them experienced sexual molestation and even rape by pastors, Sunday school teachers, etc., only to have the crimes covered up by those claiming spiritual authority. If so, I wish to hear their stories. I will then be more interested in hearing what they have to say by way of defending Dr. Piper.

    In the meantime I again ask, why even come here to cry out for Dr. Piper in the first place? It is like Dr. Piper has been placed on some sort of pedestal. It is like he has been made the oracle for a doctrine, a movement and a way of life that claims an allegiance that actually belongs only to Jesus. Dr. Piper appears to have become a symbol that must be defended, much as many would feel themselves compelled to come to the defense of flag and country were it to be reported that somebody had smeared fecal matter on an American flag.

    No, Dr. Piper’s high position does not make him immune to criticism. Rather, it renders him subject to an elevated standard of accountability–especially where he chooses to hold himself out publicly. If Dr. Piper makes hurtful, insensitive pronouncements, I will respond. I will endeavor to respond with love, but it will be with a love whose first loyalty is toward those who have all too often been discounted and dishonored by those in high spiritual places.

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  44. Gary W – this post has gone viral. I’ve had 10 times the average hits. When this many people are shocked, it’s time for a little reality check, no? But the deal is that his friends stand by him and instead tell us to repent and apologize for being uncharitable. Where have we seen that pattern before?

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  45. Gary W — not all of us here are blindly defending Piper. His statements re: the tornado and the ELCA are, in my humble opinion, unbiblical and should not be defended. The rest of your post smacks of, “You have no right to speak!” Do you really think that’s a healthy way to interact with people?

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  46. Wow, it’s amazing how written text can be interpreted in so vastly different ways. I read Gary W’s above comments SO differently than Seek Theos did. I am quite sure that the filters through which we each have read this are our prior experiences.

    I would guess that Seek Theos has found Piper’s writing or preaching to be helpful and therefore is giving the benefit of the doubt, so one “off” comment is viewed as something to be acknowledged but not belabored. I, on the other hand, have seen an ongoing Piper-worship that I honestly could not think of a more spot on comparison than the worshiping of the symbol of the American flag rather than honoring what it represents. M

    I don’t read Gary W’s words as saying Piper has no right to speak, although in response to major natural disasters, given his heavy emphasis on Calvinism and his silence in response to very UNnatural disasters, aka the SG fiasco, I would say in this instance, he indeed has no right to speak.

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  47. Recovering Pharisee – I think it is relatively clear that Gary W was saying that us “new or infrequent commentors” do not have the right to speak or at least he has no interest in listening to what we have to say unless we follow his demands. That is what I was responding to.

    I have found Piper helpful, just as I have found Dr. Michael Brown helpful. Note that Dr. Brown is a charismatic and a non-Calvinist (he eschews the term Arminian). Also note that I’m neither a charismatic nor an Arminian. Saying you find someone helpful doesn’t necessarily mean you give them the benefit of the doubt but I also don’t think that we should belabor any isolated statements made by otherwise reasonable people (within reason, of course).

    For instance, I do not agree with his statements re: the tornado and the ELCA (see above) but does that mean I’m going to bring it up every single time anyone says anything about Piper, every time he tweets, every time he posts on Facebook, etc.? No, that’s absurd.

    Well you clearly think that “in this instance” Piper has no right to speak. Thanks for laying that out there. Unfortunately I disagree. Everyone always has a right to speak, even if they make themselves look foolish in the process. To say otherwise is, in my opinion, to get into a dangerous realm.

    As far as his emphasis on Calvinism goes, I’d like to ask you a question about how you view the tragedy (along with man-made tragedies): can God work it for good? Does God indeed work “all things after the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11) or is that a false view of God and His sovereignty? Is there pointless evil, from which no good could ever and will ever come?

    It’s really that simple: God can make good come from everything (natural disasters, man-made disasters, murder, sickness, poverty, famine, etc.) even if we don’t see how that works out or God cannot actually work all things according to his will and thus there is pointless evil of all kinds that will result in nothing but suffering, pain and death.

    I prefer to stick with the Biblical revelation on that one, personally. If God can predestine for His only Son to be tortured and killed (Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28), I see no reason to believe that He can’t bring good out of similarly deplorable events (just as He said he would (Romans 8:28)). I’d like to know what position you take.

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  48. @Seek Theos,

    What is God’s will? Does good come out of everything? How did Jesus view the tragedies from Luke 13? Was that God’s will, or an accident? I truly believe that Calvinists have a wrong take on God’s Sovereignty. I believe in God’s sovereignty, but not the way that the Calvinists define it. By the way, how are natural disasters defined as pointless evil? I don’t see evil in it at all.

    Do you really like to stick with Biblical revelation, or is it really the Calvinist teaching that you stick with?

    I don’t believe that evil happens because God willed it to happen, somehow calling that God’s own good will and pleasure. Calvinists do, hence all of the defenders of Piper’s off the wall statement about Job, which invokes the God’s Sovereignty Doctrine, in that God willed the whirlwind to happen, for his own good will and pleasure, so that good can come out of it. And, we non-Calvinists know, that is absurd.

    Ed

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  49. Seek Theos – I do not believe Gary W. is saying that new or infrequent visitors do not have the right to comment. Regular blog readers can become communities and he noticed that on this article, a lot of new people came out of nowhere. It’s out of the ordinary and that is what I believe he was commenting on. That is why I made the comment last night regarding the large amount of hits this post has received, to let him know that this post had gone viral. He may not have been aware of that.

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  50. ”’And Denny wants people to apologize to Piper for being uncharitable? Wow. That basically means everybody who calls it disgusting and poor taste is WRONG.”’

    Sadly, it truly shows how completely out of touch they are.

    There are ways of handling a ‘misunderstanding’ of the scripture verse, and if they look the time to realize that there ARE alot of people NOT on their wavelength as far as bible knowledge, their doctrine, etc. Yes, that does include some within their own circle. For some reason they seem to feel those people aren’t worth giving an explanation too, and do not take the opportunity to reach them. They just assume they are ‘haters’. ALL of them, but not ‘some’.

    Lets assume for a minute it was a misunderstanding. Yes, in the past others have said something that was taken the way wrong way. The people that are worth their weight in salt tend to stand back, and acknowledge the misunderstanding. They clarify, and then just apologize for not realizing people MAY take what they said the wrong way – how they have learned they need to do things a bit different in the future. That way they can say their message, but do it in a way that ‘everyone’ understands. Circumstance handled the best way possible.

    Honestly? They way they handled it they look like they have a major chip on their shoulder. I could even go as far as arrogant or prideful.

    ‘Leaders’ are to model how you conduct yourself in such circumstances, especially if they feel it was a ‘misunderstanding’. If you look at the scripture Piper quoted, look at the time in history, remember his past speech about tornadoes, etc. Its not that hard to put the pieces together. You know – look at it from the other person’s prospective? I mean they LOVE to teach that especially when it comes to ‘gender roles’. Act this way so he feels this….Same principal.

    All they had to do is use a bit of discernment at this junction of time, and you still would have had people ‘disagree’ with it – but you may not look so bad. Piper freaked, and deleted it. Denny got defensive, and got ugly in return. Not once were they able to place themselves in others shoes to even attempt to grasp where people were coming from. YES, that is part of the leader’s job. UNDERSTANDING should go both ways, but they decided to act like an adult to a small child…that will never go over well with adults. Why would it?

    They need a staff member to show them how to handle this stuff, because truly? They are clueless on how to do this themselves. They just make matters worse. In the business world – it would be small, but ugly marketing nightmare.

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  51. Seek Theos,

    In the face of tragedy, Dr. Piper tweets to almost a half a million people, “Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.” In the context of the moment, this is incontrovertible, insensitive drivel. In your attempt to defend Dr. Piper you tell us that Dr. Piper really meant to say, “in the face of tragedy we should mourn and worship (v. 20) and not blame God (v. 22).” With all due respect, under the circumstances of the moment, I find this to be as insensitive and ill-advised as Dr. Piper’s original tweet. The time may come when a victim of great loss can profit from such a teaching. However, as applied to those who have suffered great tragedy, I am not so sure that there can ever be any profit in very much you have to say this morning about God’s sovereignty and His working “all things after the counsel of His will.” This comes across to me as truth without love. It comes across as something Job’s comforters would say. Were you to attempt to comfort me with such loveless truth even 10 or 20 years after, say, the loss of a child, I suspect I would be sorely pressed to resist the temptation to try to deck you.

    No, your words are of no value in ministering comfort, unless, perhaps, you are willing to grant credence to the full word of God, Including: 2 Pet. 3:9 (God is not willing that any should perish), Rom. 5:18 (through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men), 1 Cor. 15:22 (in Christ shall all be made alive), and 1 Tim. 4:10 (God is the savior of all people). But no, my guess is that, however these verses are to be read (and I hold out hope that they can be taken at face value, i.e., literally), Dr. Piper and you have morphed these clear Biblical teachings into a doctrine of the eternal conscious torment of the unsaved dead.

    Yes, you have the right to speak here so long as Julie Anne permits. However, if you wish to be heard, if you wish to be take seriously, at least by me, you will need to ditch the Piperesque, insensitive, “truth-is-truth-with-or-without-love approach. The better approach, presented yesterday by monax, quoting Dr. Jerram Barr, is to say that “The answer is to cry; weep; mourn. Now is a time for tears and compassion, being agents of change, of healing, of coming alongside. . .” Here is truth spoken with love.

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  52. Piper did not TWEET to Oklahoma.. he tweeted the mortifying sad irony of Oklahoma and the story in Job. Everything else is VENOMOUS CONJECTURE. everyone put down your stones, and pray for Oklahoma.. One body, many parts is the body of Christ BUT NOT HERE.

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  53. ““The answer is to cry; weep; mourn. Now is a time for tears and compassion, being agents of change, of healing, of coming alongside. . .” Here is truth spoken with love.”

    Yes. That is evidenced by the 100 some posts calling Piper, essentially, Satan in disguise. You have got to be kidding.

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  54. TheGood – Oh, is this now about Piper’s tragedy? Wow. We’ve gone full circle now. I wonder how the victims of OK feel about that. Let’s not tell them. They have enough on their minds.

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  55. thebackpewguy,

    I must respectfully disagree with you and your assessment of Piper’s first TWEET. In Pipers first TWEET, he indicates that God caused the whirlwind, because Piper believes in a distorted Calvinist view of the Sovereignty of God, indicating that God caused the calamity, taking the lives of people. I know the story of Job. God gave Satan authority to do what he wanted, all because Satan placed a bet with God, that if God took away his family, that Job would curse God. God said, Well, we will see about that. Job’s calamity was a test, a wager, a bet.

    So, to equate the calamity of Job to the calamity of Oklahoma is absurd.

    Ed

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  56. thebackpewguy-

    Unforunately, you are yourself conjecturing about the meaning of Piper’s tweet as well. EVERYBODY had to conjecture. Piper’s original tweet was nothing but that one verse, Job 1:19. There was no context, no explanation, just that one verse. When you look at Piper’s past examples of tweets and messages after various tragedies, and then see this tweet of just Job 1:19, the safest and most logical conclusion to come to is that he was again preaching God’s judgement. Is it the only conclusion you can come to? Certainly not, as others did come to different conclusions. However, given history, which is a good predictor of present behaviour and ideas, the conclusion of Piper being insensitive of judgemental is sensible and logical, and arguably the best conclusion to draw.

    Now, if we assume that it was indeed a misunderstanding, a simple explanation to clear up misunderstanding and apology for hurting feelings would suffice (at least for me it would). That is not what happened though. Piper instead deleted the tweet, sweeping it under the rug, hiding his mistake, and refused to own up to it. His second tweet was more damage control and possible explanation, but it still lacks an apology, even a simple one. Also, since the first tweet was deleted, this second tweet is not really in explanation of the first tweet.

    Personally, if Piper had never tweeted teh original tweet, and instead tweeted only the second one which referenced James 5:11 (Piper specifically referenced the last sentence), I would be ok with it. For reference, here is James 5:11 (NIV)–“As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.” I see this verse as more about not giving up hope even in the midst of troubles (troubles of any kind), and to fall into the arms of a compassionate and merciful God who loves us. Is this the only thing that could be seen as what Piper was saying by referencing this verse? Certainly not. I think you have a better chance at seeing compassion in this verse though than you can in Job 1:19.

    Is this the best choice of verses to quote in a time of tragedy? Probably not. It could still be possible to construe other, less than compassionate meanings from the verse. It’s not the worst verse to quote, but neither is it probably the best. Personally, I think there are probably some Psalms that could be better suited (though I don’t have enough memorized to think of one off hand).

    In my opinion, perhaps a better thing that could be said in a case of tragedy is, “I’m so sorry. I care about you and God cares about you. If you cannot or don’t want to cry to me, just know that you can cry out your hurts to God.” We let a person mourn. If they want to cry out their hurt and frustration and anger and sadness to God, then that is OK. David did it ALL. THE. TIME. Just look at the Psalms. God can handle it.

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  57. It’s a real problem when you have to have so many “interpret” and “translate” what Piper was trying to say. Even then, his words are NOT the most helpful words to speak after such a tragedy, at least for me. It doesn’t give much room for honest anger about the tragedy before you’re expected to just “pack” up emotions and go on your merry way.

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  58. TheGood,

    Please, would you consider avoiding the hyperbole. We can call Dr. Piper to account on his doctrine and actions without implying that he is the satan in disguise. In case you require reassurance, I consider Dr. Piper to be a brother.

    By the way, would you mind telling us a little something about yourself? I don’t believe you have commented here before. What drew your attention to this blog? How did you discover that Dr. Piper was being criticized here.

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  59. Pingback: What Do Victims of Natural Disasters Need? A Survivor Shares | Spiritual Sounding Board

  60. Gary W May 21, 2013 @ 10:23 PM

    More than OK with me! I am with you 100% on what you wrote.

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  61. appreciated and wanted to echo Seek Theos’ thoughts on the sovereignty of God:

    Does God indeed work “all things after the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11) or is that a false view of God and His sovereignty? Is there pointless evil, from which no good could ever and will ever come?

    It’s really that simple: God can make good come from everything (natural disasters, man-made disasters, murder, sickness, poverty, famine, etc.) even if we don’t see how that works out. . . .

    If God can predestine for His only Son to be tortured and killed (Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28), I see no reason to believe that He can’t bring good out of similarly deplorable events (just as He said he would (Romans 8:28)).

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  63. i’ve got a somewhat cryptic question for you Ed:

    Who moved David to number Israel?

    and JoeJoe:

    In all the verses of the story of Job where does Scripture most perfectly align itself over the Oklahoma Tornado tragedy?

    Is not Job 1:19 the parallel link to the sons and daughters of Oklahoma who were at school when “a great wind fell upon them, and they are dead”?

    Is this not the best verse in terms of parallel events?

    This is why I understand Piper’s mistake—the man tends to be super analytical and precise like myself. That is why his tweet spoke to me so profoundly. I understood what he was pointing to—and ultimately it is to Christ.

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  64. I know this one, as I studied that long long long ago, Monax. The incident that you refer two about David happened TWICE, not once. So, in EACH incident, who moved David to number the people?

    How do I know that it is two separate incidents? I dissected it.

    Ed

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  65. Monax,

    Job 1:19 does indeed draw a parallel with the tornado in Moore, OK. The circumstances are practically the same. Children died when a great wind brought a building down on them. So I agree that Job 1:19 is an acurate description. That’s it though. That’s all it is, a description. There is no compassion in it. No sorrow, hurting, love, empathy, anything. It is just a simple, non-emotional comparison. There are times and places for those. This is one of them. As I’ve mentioned before, Piper didn’t refer to any other part of Job, just that one verse. Now, if you read that verse, and it reminded you of the story of Job, and how God was still with him and blessed him and cared for him even in the midst of the tragedy, then that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that.

    The problem is that when you look at previous example of Piper’s tweets, blogs, or messages after diasters, he tends to say, either implicitly or explicitly, that the disaster was brought about as God’s judgement or will. The statements have a history of lacking in compassion and empathy. So when a lot of people read a verse like that, which is devoid of any context, compassion, empathy, or anything feeling, they see Piper as lacking in compassion. Not everyone would agree with me, but I do think he somewhat redeemed himself with his second tweet. I still think he should tweet an apology for the first tweet, but at least the second tweet was better than the original, though I do think there are probably other, better things he probably could have said.

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  66. Monax,

    After you find out WHO in EACH moved David to number the people, then ask the tough WHY questions for each. What was the purpose of each? What was the reason for each?

    Just advocating God’s Sovereignty is not a good enough answer. Just advocating that God’s gonna do what God’s gonna do is not sufficient. Just advocating that God brings good things out of evil is not a valid answer to anything that happens.

    How did I find out that it is 2 incidents instead of just one incident? Simple:

    Using a KJV ONLY, read the punishments. David had 3 options to choose from.

    Look at each incident and write down on paper the choices that he had, AS WELL AS the punishment that he chose.

    But again, ask the tough WHY questions before you conclude the Calvinist doctrine of God’s sovereignty.

    Ed

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  67. what a grand waste of time this discussion has been. someone posted

    Unforunately, you are yourself conjecturing about the meaning of Piper’s tweet as well. EVERYBODY had to conjecture. Piper’s original tweet was nothing but that one verse,

    truth is i am not conjecturing as i dont know.. i can wonder but i dont know so i cant say.. BUT MANY here have picked up their self righteous stones and CONJECTURE STONED Piper… doing the very thing you say you HATE about Piper.

    this is my last post. Love God, care for others, and leave the details to God

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  68. Conjecture: Form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information.

    thebackpewguy was conjecturing. He formed an oppinion on incomplete information. We all were. The difference is that those who were calling Piper to accountability for his tweet were also taking into consideration Piper’s theology, previous tweets and messages, and a view of psychology that says people need to here compassion in times of tragedy. We may not have known Piper’s true intent or meaning, but our assumptions were based on more information that simply blindly giving the benefit of the doubt. It’s not a “stoning,” it’s wanting a public figure to be held accountable for the things he says publicly.

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  69. Gary W – you wrote, “No, your words are of no value in ministering comfort, unless, perhaps, you are willing to grant credence to the full word of God,” then ripped passages out of their context that have absolute no bearing on what I wrote or this situation. It’s quite amazing to me that you would simply ignore what I wrote, the questions that I asked, and then say, essentially, “That’s not loving!”

    I think most readers can see that you simply can’t answer the clear teachings of the Bible regarding God’s sovereignty. Either that or you choose not to. Either way you didn’t. Also, I really don’t think your approach is at all healthy. We’re not here to abide by your demands so you will listen to us.

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  70. Seek Theos,

    You mean the clear Calvinist teachings of God’s sovereignty, not the Bibles. Not all of us believe that God created people for the sole purpose of going to hell. That is the Calvinist teaching of the Sovereignty of God.

    So, did God cause the whirlwind in Oklahoma according to clear Bible teaching?

    Ed

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  71. Chapmaned24 — you must have missed my post. Please scroll up, read it and respond to what I wrote. Creating strawmen might be convenient but it’s not a fruitful way to interact with people.

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  72. A mom lost her son to suicide. In response a well known pastor tweeted the following: “And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:5”. Many were outraged, and understandably so. How could a prominent pastor be so insensitive? Others came to the pastor’s defense. “He was only showing that the Bible talks about suicide”, they said. “You seem to believe that we should throw out the book of Matthew when it comes to comforting those who suffer such a tragedy”, they added. Some went so far as to ask those who were outraged to apologize for jumping to conclusions about the pastor’s tweet.

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  73. Seek Theos,

    Please don’t try to use the “taking out of context” ploy on me. It has been my experience that when a pastor can’t respond to a point made from Scripture, they use this ploy as a means of shutting down further discussion. They (and you) may succeed in shutting down further discussion, but only at the cost of tacitly admitting the the validity of the point they (and you) can’t answer. If you want to demonstrate that I am taking Scripture out of context, that fine, but only if you show me how. For my part, the Scriptures I tendered for your consideration are very much a part of the context. You can’t simply eliminate them from discussion. You have to show how these Scriptures can be a part of the inspired inerrant word of God, just like the ones that more conveniently fit your doctrinal template.

    Do I believe in God’s sovereignty? Yes. Do I believe in free will? Yes. Can I wrap my mind around the paradox? In part, though not entirely.

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  74. Anyone who has said that Piper only sent one Tweet (Job 1:19) is misrepresenting the facts. I’m not saying you must change your position, but as I posted above, Piper tweeted another verse immediately following. Here is a picture of what was posted as it showed up on someone’s phone: http://richardsibbes.com/_temporary/JP-tweet.jpg.

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  75. Seek Theos,

    Please be more specific about scrolling up. I am not creating a strawman. I know that is a widely misused word in the blogisphere when one has no answer to a direct question.

    Ed

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  76. A Reader,

    I don’t think any of us are saying that Piper sent only one tweet. And at least a few of us (some may disagree) have said that we believe his second tweet was much an improvement over his first, and are glad on some level that he deleted the first. I can’t speak for everybody, but for myself, what I take issue with is that 1) he tweeted the first one at all, 2) he deleted it without a simple apology for tweeting it (ignoring his mistake rather than owning up to it and apologizing for any misunderstandings and hurt feelings). That shows a lack of compassion, even if I believe his second tweet was more compassionate than the first.
    **Also note that the second tweet was not immediately after the first, it was 12 hours later.**

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  77. JoeJoe, you and I are talking about different things. If you look at the picture I linked to you will see that Piper sent out MORE than just one verse initially. Piper initially tweeted all of this, broken up into two tweets: “Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it feel upon them, and they are dead. Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.” This gives much more context and illustrates the larger point. In response to suffering we mourn and we worship. Just focusing on his tweet of Job 1:19 without the rest of the context is a misrepresentation of the facts.

    Very few people have noted this so I’ll post the link to the full context again: http://richardsibbes.com/_temporary/JP-tweet.jpg. This was initially posted by Tony Reinke in a comment on Denny Burk’s blog.

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  78. Gary W — “Do I believe in God’s sovereignty? Yes.” Then why do you take issue with what I said before? You also still have not answered my question.

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  79. Hmm…I hadn’t seen or heard of the second tweet of verse 20. I will say that I believe the added verse, expanding the context, in my opinion, makes the initial tweet slightly better, as I do believe that even in the midst of tragedy, we should praise God. I still have a problem with the whole thing lacking in compassion, my view of his theology in this arena, and his non-apology but my framework for my conclusion is a little different now.

    Thank you though for the added information! I’d rather draw similar conclusions for slightly different reasons from fuller information than lesser information where I could be missing something important.

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  81. JoeJoe, initially I didn’t know about the second Tweet either. I believe this is a good reminder of why we should see the best in others lest we unintentionally slander them or misrepresent them. The huge backlash Piper received was assuming he just tweeted Job 1:19 with no additional context. All of that backlash was based on incomplete information. In that light I think the person most deserving of an apology (in this specific instance) is Piper himself. Regardless of what you think of the man outside of this situation, here he has been misrepresented.

    Countless Christians throughout history have looked to Job’s trial for comfort in the midst of unexplained tragedy. For everyone who is offended by those two verses, I’d imagine there are countless more who have taken comfort in them.

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  82. Also, thanks JoeJoe for charitably recognizing the additional tweet and the context it adds. I have seen very few people recognize it and I appreciate your willingness to alter your perspective on the situation, even if your overall opinion remains somewhat the same.

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  83. It’s up to around 25 dead now.
    And the tornado was confirmed as an F5 — the worst possible kind.
    With a footprint a good part of a mile across and an energy release of at least 60kt.

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  84. Seek Theos,

    You had said:
    “I laid out some clear questions which you did not answer”

    So, I went to the Post that you referenced, and the questions you posed were::
    “I’d like to ask you a question about how you view the tragedy (along with man-made tragedies): can God work it for good? Does God indeed work “all things after the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11) or is that a false view of God and His sovereignty? Is there pointless evil, from which no good could ever and will ever come?”

    I believe that I already answered that. Yes, I answered that. This is what I said:

    What is God’s will? Does good come out of everything? How did Jesus view the tragedies from Luke 13? Was that God’s will, or an accident? I truly believe that Calvinists have a wrong take on God’s Sovereignty. I believe in God’s sovereignty, but not the way that the Calvinists define it. By the way, how are natural disasters defined as pointless evil? I don’t see evil in it at all.

    But, I will expound to answer more precisely.

    1. How do I view the tragedy (along with man made tragedies)?
    Answer: Luke 13…accidents happen having nothing to do with God.

    2. Can God work it for good?
    Answer: What was the evil?

    3. Does God indeed work “all things after the counsel of his will?
    Answer: What is his will?

    4. Is that a false view of God and his sovereignty?
    Answer: Yes

    5. Is there pointless evil, from which no good could ever and will ever come?
    Answer: No.

    PS. Again, where was the strawman?

    Ed

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  85. “4. Is that a false view of God and his sovereignty?
    Answer: Yes”

    Okay, so quoting exactly what the Bible says is a false view of God and His sovereignty. I find that quite interesting. Thanks for your responses Ed but I doubt we can dialogue in any fruitful way since you think the Bible itself presents a false view of God and His sovereignty.

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  86. A Reader: I saw the original tweet from Piper’s Twitter feed and posted the screenshot that I saw. I also saw the screenshot you posted from Burk’s site. The reason I didn’t say anything about that screen shot is that I do not recall any verses surrounding the insensitive tweet. I have seen people post screen shots of tweets around the same timeframe and I remember those tweets. I’m not saying that he didn’t tweet those surrounding verses, but I do not remember them. If I would have seen those verses around that tweet, I would not have published this post. Again, I am not saying they were not there, I just do not know 100%. But . . . . I am puzzled by the screenshot at the link posted on Burk’s site. Maybe some readers can clear it up for me.

    The format of the tweets is unfamiliar to me. Has anyone seen Twitter formatted like this? I have an iPhone. Maybe Android looks different?

    Tweet?

    This is a screen shot of a succession of tweets using the Twitter app:

    Tweet from my phone

    They are pretty different.

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  87. Seek Theos,

    Help me out here. I find 2 questions you have asked, but may be missing the one you’re waiting for me to answer. I find:

    What was Job’s response?
    Do you really think that’s a healthy way to interact with people?

    What question, exactly, would you like me to answer.

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  88. Seek Theos,

    Hahahahaha! No, I disagree with your assessment of WHAT the Sovereignty of God actually is. If you are a Calvinist, then you believe that God created people for the specific purpose of going to hell. God’s sovereignty? Absurd to the max.

    Your version of the sovereignty of God is not the Biblical version, it’s the Calvinist version.

    You are funny.

    Ed

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  92. A Reader: It was good for them to release a public response. However, it falls short in my opinion. Are they expecting all 485K of his Twitter followers to visit the Desiring God website to look for an explanation? What good does that response do if it is not read? I just checked Piper’s Twitter feed and there is nothing mentioned there about an explanation. I think the very least he could have done was publicly tweet – “sorry for the misunderstanding” and include a link to the full explanation at the same place where the trouble started. Is that asking too much?

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  93. So we are told that Dr. Piper posted “Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.” Job 1:19 Then he is said to have immediately posted “Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.” Job 1:20.

    Fine. Somebody has just lost their family, their home, their car, and everything in their homes. WHO IS DR. JOHN PIPER TO SUGGEST THAT THEY NEED TO TEAR THEIR CLOTHES, SHAVE THEIR HEADS, FALL ON THE GROUND AND WORSHIP?

    Excuse me, but this is even more shocking than if he had in fact posted only the Job 1:19 verse.

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  94. Fwiw, Seek Theos, I’ve learned some time ago that I’m unable to truly dialogue w/ Ed concerning theological issues. We both subscribe to very different modes of approaching Scripture.

    I love you, Ed. But our conversations tend to break down along the lines of our readings of Scripture. Such as your “dissection” of the verses in question regarding David being moved to number Israel.

    2 Samuel 24:1 reads, Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

    and

    1 Chronicles 21:1 reads, Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

    These two chapters —2 Sam 24 and 1 Chron 21—are both parallel accounts of David being moved to number Israel; the LORD’s judgment against David’s sin; the Angel of the LORD being stopped at the Jebusiste threshing floor where Solomon’s temple would later stand; etc. etc.

    Before we can even have a discussion about the question—Was it the LORD or Satan (or both) who moved David to number Israel? we have to be in agreement that these are both inspired accounts of the same events. I don’t know of any christian scholar who would assert that these two chapters depict separate events as you’ve suggested.

    Again, Ed, we’ve reached an impasse in our dialogue.

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  97. I just read the “official” explanation.

    Here is my response:
    Put your love into action, and don’t say anything at all, then nothing would have to be deleted. James chapters 2 and 3.

    The book of James 5:11 is Piper’s back up plan. But the context of it is to be patient as a Christian suffering, that Jesus will come again to retrieve us, and Job was the SHADOW of the example of what James was discussing. Begin at verse 1, and you see the context, that the rich (spiritual word for the wicked) oppress the poor (spiritual significance of the Christian). That is the suffering being discussed in James 5.

    Job was a prophet, and THEREFORE his story has spiritual significance, and it is so explained in James 5.

    Are we to shave our heads now, too, because that was what Job did?

    I always look at the spiritual meaning of scripture. When I do, I find things that most skip over. Exegesis only sees the carnal side.

    Ed

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  98. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope (Romans 15:4).

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  99. Monax,

    I already told you that it is two different incidents, not just one. So, I came back to you with the question, who moved David to number the people? God or Satan, or both?

    Here is my answer:

    Both. One for each.

    But you did not ask, nor research the who, what, where, when, why questions. That is what I do when I search out things.

    In EACH, David was given 3 choices for his punishment.

    What were those choices for EACH incident?

    You will see that they differ…if…you write them out on paper. I did my homework on this years ago, as it was posed to me by a very good debater.

    Ed

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  100. Julie Anne, regardless of whether or not the response meets your standard, I believe you owe a response to your readers who you have misled. You should edit your original post to include the full context of what he said. Until you do that it seems hollow to critique where the explanation was posted.

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  101. Monax…you need to use the KJV for this…as I notice the NIVr version shows it to be the same incident, as well as other translations. I default to the KJV when doing word studies, not the NASB, or NIVr. Many Calvinists refuse to use the KJV, or they use a preferred Bible for their whole denomination.

    Ed

    Like

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