Six Homeschool Brothers Arrested for Alleged Sex Abuse against Younger Sister

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Six brothers from a large homeschool family were arrested for allegedly sexually violating their younger sister for 10 years.  Parents, John and Nita Jackson, were also charged for failing to report. Two of the brothers were members of Scott Brown’s  (NCFIC) Hope Bible Church.

 

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Six North Carolina brothers were arrested last week for allegedly sexually molesting their younger sister for over a decade, beginning when she was 4 years old until she was 14 years old.  The names of the brothers are Eric Jackson, 27,  Jon, 25, Matthew, 23, Nathaniel, 21, Benjamin, 19, and Aaron, 18. The charges include statutory rape, sexual assault, and rape. The young girl is currently 16 years old. The young men belong to a homeschool family with 11 children. At the time of the alleged abuse, they were living in North Carolina and two of the brothers were reportedly members of Scott Brown’s church, Hope Baptist Church in Wake Forest, North Carolina.

The men’s parents – John Jackson, 65, and Nita Jackson, 54 – also were charged with felony child abuse and released after posting a $15,000 secured bond. Tilley said they were charged because they were aware of the abuse and failed to take action.  (http://hamptonroads.com/2014/05/six-nc-brothers-accused-abusing-girl-over-decade)

Scott Brown, Dan Horn

Scott Brown has had very close ties with the now defunct Vision Forum Ministries and recently fallen Christian Patriarchal leader, Doug Phillips. Brown also heads up National Centers for Family -Integrated Churches which was originally connected with Vision Forum’s ministry.  Church Elder Dan Horn also has similar connections with Vision Forum Ministries.

The church elder said he took Eric in December 2012 to speak with detectives and added he would have contacted investigators if Eric hadn’t agreed to do it.

“We believe their repentance is genuine,” Horn said.

 Note this book authored by both Scott Brown and Dan Horn, which was published by Vision Forum Ministries in 2007.

Screen Shot 2014-05-13 at 4.41.17 PM

Eric Jackson, 27 yrs, allegedly reported the crimes to church elder, Dan Horn.  Two of the brothers were members of the church, the rest of the family is not.  My source has told me that the two brothers became convicted of their sin and felt the need to confess to church leadership.  That is when Horn acknowledged the sin and show of repentance, but also said the crimes must be reported to authorities.

PilotOnline.come interviewed with Dan Horn, an elder from Hope Baptist Church:

Horn said Eric and his brother, Jon, are both members of Hope Baptist Church. He said Jon also is cooperating with investigators.

The church elder said he took Eric in December 2012 to speak with detectives and added he would have contacted investigators if Eric hadn’t agreed to do it.

“We believe their repentance is genuine,” Horn said.

(Source)

This is an interesting story in many ways.  While there are connections with Vision Forum Ministries, it’s interesting to note how this sex abuse case was handled.  This young girl (clearly a minor) was allegedly abused around the same time as Lourdes Torres-Manteufel. She was in a large and most likely Patriarchal family. When word got out to church leaders in this case, they acted promptly. We did not see the same swift response in the Doug Phillips situation at Boerne Christian Assembly.

But there are some red flags that cannot be ignored.  When a homeschooling family is isolated from neighbors, with very little connections, abuse can go on unnoticed for years.  What a tragedy.  Please pray for this young girl who has a lifetime ahead of her trying to make sense of why her older brothers and parents allowed her body to be used in such a despicable way.

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Related article:

When the brothers turned themselves in, most of them were emotionless.

“The first kid, it seems to be like a relief, but even when they came to turn themselves in last week, it was like, ‘We’re here.’ I don’t think they know the magnitude of what they’ve done because I don’t think they knew it was wrong,” says Sheriff Tilley, “They haven’t been taught any differently. I’m not sure when that’s going to sink in exactly what they were doing was wrong.

 

 

194 comments on “Six Homeschool Brothers Arrested for Alleged Sex Abuse against Younger Sister

  1. So Scott Brown and Dan Horn knew that this girl, who lived two hours away (Perquimans County) had been raped for years by members of their church and they did what exactly to intervene and protect her when they found out in 2012, months before these perps actually wound up in jail?

  2. Scott really shouldn’t use photos which put him in the left side of the frame. I guess that he didn’t learn from “cinematography expert” Phillips that this conveys a sense of the sinister.

    From what I have been told, not all families are treated the same way at the Hope Baptist community, and not all responses to allegations of sexual abuse are handled like this. But then, some are more equal than others. And perhaps things there have changed.

    Sad.

  3. Disturbed,

    From the 2 articles I read and phone conversation with a source, it sounds like Horn reported it when he found out. It would be interesting to find out what discipline measures (if any) the church took. December of 2012 until now is quite a long time. I’m wondering if civil authorities removed the daughter from the home? There are so many questions I have.

  4. Surprise, surprise. Taking a stroll down Eric Jackson’s Facebook page, you can see familiar names: Voddie Baucham, Rushdoony, Calvin, Kevin Swanson, Gary North.

  5. When is enough going to be enough. I am so sickened by all this major dysfunction .I am so grateful for the disclosure from SSB, HA, Recovering Grace and all the others who are disclosing all the evil that has been done to innocent children

  6. Leslie – If you take a look at Eric’s Facebook page (he’s the eldest of the 6 who were arrested), you can see who his influencers are. Why is it always the same Patriarchs? Ugh!! So Horn got it right and reported early, but it still doesn’t excuse the fact that Patriarchy oppresses young girls and women.

  7. Put Scott Brown and Doug Phillips in a bag and shake them…
    Either way they are one in the same on the scumBag meter and it pegs high.
    Personally I would toss the bag off the Neuse River bridge.

    Anyone having slimy Scott Brown speak or going to hear him is very naive, or very suspect.

    The site Ephesians 5:11.wordpress.com was started by a person of great integrity that has exposed Scott and his manipulative scheme for what it is. Scott Brown a legitimate elder ? LOL, sure just like Al Sharpton & PORN actor John Bobbit ( of severed penis fame) are ordained ministers. At least they aren’t self appointed elders like Scott Brown. Start a church in your basement and declare yourself Lord Ruler Supreme while pursuing guru status in the Land of Bumbling, Naive home schoolers. Sounds like something out of Sir Geffro Botkin’s 100 year plan.

  8. Personally I just don’t get why people don’t see through these clowns. Why would you take your family to a church in some wackjobs basement. Especially one like Scott Brown. The guy has a very long HORRIBLE reputation. Why trust him ?

  9. This entire movement needs to be shut down, it is rotten to the core. Is anyone familiar with the Lockwood family? Homeschool missionary family with 12 kids living in Mexico. That patriarch has just confessed to major sin and the family is now forced to leave their home in Mexico and return to the states. One scandal after another this movement is breeding nothing but brokenness. Christ is not in any of it.

    I have really had to take a step back from all of this, it’s just too painful.

  10. Taunya, I am livid. I really am. I am so with you, sister! I read about the missionary family in Mexico and also the prom one. I’m just disgusted by all of this under the guise of “Christian” Patriarchy. It is pure evil.

  11. From what I have seen in my own family , the ones who have bought into it are very naive, trusting and gullible. My ATI daughter is a very sweet woman. When I asked her forgiveness about 9 months ago for introducing her to IBLP and adding that I hoped we had taught her critical thinking skills, she said we had and she thinks for herself. I don’t think so.

    I am thinking about posting my experience in the mid 70’s. How this started and the regrets on how it has ended for some of my family.

  12. I would hope that the young girl has been removed from the home. The article didn’t say

  13. Sorry to be hogging the blog space, but I am furious. Christians seem to think that we have to be so nice. Not offend anyone. Trust our “Authority”. Whatever happened to being Christian Warriors. Thinking of the old hymn ” Onward Christian Soldiers marching as to war. With the cross of Jesus going on before”. The Apostle Paul was not a wimp. I think it is time for Chrstians to be warriors and stand up for the victims.

    I will now get off of my soapbox.

  14. Leslie, keep ranting and stay on your soap box. That is righteous anger. I’ve been spewing that same anger on Twitter.

    And if you were thinking of sharing your story publicly, I’d be happy to post it in an article.

  15. Laurie – I read and heard that, too. I was told that when the family heard about the son going to authorities, they left to Colorado.

    In the article I added as a “related link,” they discuss that the children had poor education. This is another problems with no oversight in homeschooling. Some parents are good and want the best for their children, others will neglect their children’s education. I also read they are anti-government. No real shocker there. That’s what we’ve been fed from HSLDA and homeschool conventions for years.

  16. Aaron’s facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/countryfun.jackson

    yes. Julie. NC’s homeschool laws are very lax. Families register and that’s it. Supposedly parents agree to have their children tested every year but there is no manpower to check it. Parents are supposed to keep their own attendance records. Homeschoolers Anonymous has done a really good job of presenting a case for accountability in homeschooling. It bothers me that these kids have little to no contact at all with mandated reporters. Even the pastors… not a great reputation for reporting abuse. And the pastors don’t think “spanking” for “discipline” is abusive, even if multiple “spankings” happen daily and the number of “swats” is high.

  17. At least two of the brothers refer to the movie Indoctrination on their Facebook pages (by liking the movie, the producer, etc): http://indoctrinationmovie.com

    This is clearly a family who has been “indoctrinated” with Vision Forum-type ideology, Reconstructionism, Patriarchy. Little sister was an easy target, especially at the age of 4 years old.

    At the age of 4, my little girls holding dollies, twirling in their dresses watching the skirt dance around them, playing with their toy kitchens. The precious little Jackson girl at the age of 4 was being used to satisfy her big brothers’ sexual desires while parents looked the other way. I just about threw up typing this. I am so disgusted by Patriarchy.

  18. This type of sick, perverted gratification took place at Homestead Heritage, too. Homeschooling is not necessarily a safer environment for children. In fact, I’m convinced that Patriarchy ensures that it will be a risky environment for children. As horrendous as this story is, this ideology needs to be drug into the light and exposed.

    I hope that young lady is getting some good counseling now. God help her. Wherever she is, I doubt the “Patriarchs” have reached out to offer any assistance.

  19. I am extremely skeptical, I trust but I verify, then I verify again, especially where absolutist claims are made. The only one I dont apply that to is Jesus Christ so I am a bit inconsistent in that area. I hope people dont take offense, it has not been my faith, my hope, or my love that has pulled my backside and some other backsides out of the fire it has been my skepticism and doubt with a capital D when it comes to claims of preachers or spiritual peddlers. The good preachers I have know, which far outweigh the bad ones by a bazillion times, have never ridiculed me. It was my cynicism that “saved” me. I have said this before but the very first time I walked into a Bill Gothard “infomercial” I could only stand it for about ten or so minutes, dont remember the exact time. The guy was a tool, he was a tool then and he is a tool now.

    We are all tools in some way, I am way up on top in the “drama queen” department and the faux martyr complex, I know that about me and I need to watch that. There is a difference between being a tool is one thing, like say a Ray Comfort who has a PhD in being a tool, and criminal behavior. This kind of stuff has got to end, at some point the clown car group that has lead so many families down this stupid rabbit hole (Patriarchy) need to own up and be the manly men and admit it does not work. I like another phrase, they dont need to man up, they need to human up, much more freeing. I got a good start all the fine pastors at the Gospel Coalition will sign a pledge that is not ambiguous where they say all pastoral staff in their churches are mandated reporters and that they will have a strong stance against child abuse.

  20. Here is the question I would like to pose to the Doug Wilsons, Stacy McDonalds, and Kelly Crawfords of the world.

    Doesn’t the girl who was molested by her brothers share at least some culpability just as Lourdes Torres does? I suspect their answer is no because the girl was (and is) under the age of consent, but Torres was not.

    I should remind them the SECULAR law says the girl was incapable of giving consent. According to Jewish law, a girl reaches adulthood at the age of 12. So why would they use secular law, not biblical law to determine the biblical question of culpability and sin?

    Wilson, McDonald, and Crawford use Torres’ age against her because she was in her 20’s when the abuse took place, but where do you draw the line? Why are they using secular law which they often claim is of the world as a copout? Come on, Doug Wilson. Let’s see a blog post lambasting the girl. Stand up for biblical values.

  21. I love that tweet JA! It captures the way I feel so well. I have actually been brought to tears this week by all of this and I am not ashamed to say it. It’s hard to watch something that is pure evil be painted with the name of Christ.

    So many people have been deceived, so many are finding it hard to even call themselves Christian after all they have seen. I don’t disclose much on this blog, or anywhere, but I will say this openly, on Sunday morning my family and I are resting at home. We are not even looking for a church and I don’t know when we will. Right now any talk of trying to define what we believe and therefore where we should worship is more than any of us can take. My husband and I believe Christ died for our sins that is it. The rest of the sick and vain arguments that so many are so fond of seem to lead to a very dark place and to me the beginning of all the evil we discuss here.

    Sorry I know I may have stepped on some toes. That is why I don’t comment much and why even though I have a few ideas for blog posts I can not bring myself to write them. I either have to keep my mouth shut these days or open it and offend. So I will keep quiet or give one or two sentence comments in attempt to keep the peace. Shutting up now!!

  22. David that has always troubled me it is a bunch of absolutists being relative in their application of their absolutes. Besides being terrible for the poor child suffering the abuse, that should be the primary concern. But I am a hell bound heretic so what do I know.

  23. Taunya, I can so relate to your feelings. I am so sick of the sick and vain arguments also. I think it is time to step on some toes. You are not alone in your feelings.

  24. This is utterly appalling – that poor child. How many more cases like this will it take to get these sick, perverted excuses for churches shut down?

    Oh, and don’t forget – place your bets now! When will the first Patriarchal-Family- Economics-styled “entrepreneur” start shilling their essential oils as the sure path to healing and redemption??

  25. I really do hope the young person involved is truly healed and supported, that should be our only focus, and the Church of Jesus. For what little it is worth I am sorry this happened to you young lady, it was not you, others did this, find healing and hope. I wish I could take it away, but I cant so all I can offer is a rather shallow I am sorry this happened to you.

    To the dumb A$$es who allowed this type of crap go on, grow up and I hope all victims sue you a new oraphis. It seems that is the only language your tribe really understands.

  26. David C,

    Doesn’t the girl who was molested by her brothers share at least some culpability just as Lourdes Torres does?

    This is actually the conclusion that the IFB draws in many cases. Children who get molested have some soulish quality of the “strange woman” — the prostitute in Proverbs in KJV-speak. Those who fail to cry out like Dinah failed to do are like Dinah. They are flawed in character, and something about them is said to solicit their own abuse. Patti Williams who ran Hephzibah House with her husband said that she could entice men at age 5 and believed that she could seduce them.

    The young women featured in the 20/20 Shattered Faith episode (Tina Anderson) described this. Another woman interviewed in the feature was molested by her preacher father as a very young girl. He would make her kneel and repent. (When she went to the youth pastor for help, he raped her. She was already bruised fruit, and this is what she was meant for, I guess.) A Hephzibah House survivor told me how when she was found being molested by a relative, her stepmother started screaming that she was a strange woman just like her birth mother had been. It wasn’t the fault of the adult relative who was committing the act.

    When you teach your sons that women are lesser creatures who were created for male gratification and service, and when you make them de facto children who need male oversight to get through the day, you not only dehumanize them, you facilitate their “use” for gratification. It is the logical conclusion. I have not followed Kelly Crawford at all, but I have read some of Stacy McDonald’s material. She is an avid advocate of the concept of what Gothard calls “the power of crying out” and Dinah’s alleged causative role in her own rape.

    Some of this concept is supported and more directly derived from the Jewish apocryphal writings that are not in the cannon — where much support for the IFB theology concerning women is drawn. (Where do you think Gothard’s directives concerning the extended unclean waiting period for resuming marital relations after the birth of a daughter and a father’s duty to monitor his daughter’s menstrual cycle comes from?) Women are not only less capable of morality (think Monstrous Regiment), they’re essentially deserving of the punishment that they might get. How much more true if they were “asking for it” because of their flawed nature?

    This is the logical end of the extreme focus on gender in patriarchy that reduces women to children, created solely for man’s use. And man has a right to use them, doesn’t he? It’s far easier to abuse a lesser because the consequences are less significant, and the justification for it is much like “kick the dog.” Everything including blame rolls downhill.

  27. This poor child was tortured by her own brothers and all the church can say if the abusers are truly repentant. If her parents in deed knew of this, they should spend as much or more time in prison as those who committed the acts against their sister.

    I recall an incident while George Bush was governor of Texas. A man was on death row who asked for leniency because he has been saved while serving time in prison and was a changed man. Bush’s response was I am glad you have found the Lord, but you must also recieve the punishment for the crime you committed. I believe this is the stand our churches should take. The church needs to think about the victim and stop coddling the criminal.

  28. The Daily Mail picked up this story. http://tinyurl.com/noltojm In their account, when authorities began investigating, the parents wouldn’t let them evan talk to their daughter. They were *actively* thwarting exposure of their daughter’s abuse.

  29. “When will the first Patriarchal-Family- Economics-styled “entrepreneur” start shilling their essential oils as the sure path to healing and redemption??”

    A family I know is already doing this. http://heritageessentialoils.com/
    On the “about us” page you can read how she used an essential oil blend on her six-month-old baby with whooping cough (because immunizations are evil, ya know. In fact, taking your baby to the doctor is utilizing the “world’s” evil medical system, which is a manifestation of Revelations’ beast. {sarcasm} )

  30. BTDT, I’ve never heard of the essential oil treatments. Sounds like a gimmick to make money.

  31. Brenda R,
    It’s definitely a gimmick. Cottage industries are heavily promoted among many in the Homeschool Movement as a means of income. That’s not a bad notion if you’re selling walking sticks or handmade clothes. But to peddle snake oil as a treatment for whooping cough? This woman isn’t certified to offer any medical advice, much less concoct her own blends for serious medical conditions.

  32. “I either have to keep my mouth shut these days or open it and offend. So I will keep quiet or give one or two sentence comments in attempt to keep the peace. Shutting up now!!”

    Taunya, your comments always resonate with me. Please keep ‘em coming.

  33. Thank you, BTDT, for the link. Somehow that brave young girl had the courage to finally speak out for help:

    “After police began the investigation the family moved to Colorado with the girl. Once there the victim reached out to Child Protective Services.”

  34. Pingback: Meet my neighbors, ctd | Civil Commotion

  35. So Scott Brown and Dan Horn knew that this girl, who lived two hours away (Perquimans County) had been raped for years by members of their church and they did what exactly to intervene and protect her when they found out in 2012, months before these perps actually wound up in jail?

    When your DOCTRINE is CORRECT(TM), you don’t concern yourself with mere details…

    And all this rampant incest was male-on-female, so it wasn’t HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) and THAT’s what’s Important.

  36. “Forget about filling your mind with wickedness from the Chronicles of Narnia and the Lord of the Rings and read things worth reading”

    Like how to turn your little sister into your pass-around sex toy?

  37. I think it is in the video I just posted where the reporter says the son asked his father’s permission to tell about the sin. That would put the son at the age of around 25 years old. Are you following me? The 25 year old son felt the need to ask his father permission to report the family’s crime. Do you see the kind of controlling environment these boys were living under? What we have going on here is very sick. It sounds like either 2 or 3 of them became convicted by their sin after attending Brown’s church and felt the need to confess and only after getting permission from their father to disclose did the secret finally leave the family. What else has been going on in this home? The parents enabled this behavior, did nothing to stop it, in fact did everything to hide. They were essentially cult leaders in their own home.

  38. I listened to the Liz Palka story and one thing leapt out at me. The son who turned in himself and his brothers had to get permission from his parents to come forward. I believe the son is an adult.

    To me this says volumes about the patriarchal movement. It damages everyone it touches. It makes far too many husbands into lords of the castle, far too many wives into either cowering submissive doormats or scheming to use their “feminine wiles” to get their way, and the children! Even the adult children aren’t allowed to grow up.

    There’s something terribly perverse about having to ask the parents who oversaw the abuse for permission to confess the sin of the abuse to an elder.

  39. So the parents didnt think they needed to protect their daughter. They are the ones I want to see under the jail.

  40. The Denver Post said the girl is in CPS protection now.

    This is a challenge for me. I am grateful for the opportunity to homeschool my kids. I turn I my notice of intent to the school district each year, and turn in my kids’ test scores every other year as required. My kids see their doctor every year for their well check appointment (plus two of my kids have heart and kidney issues that need to be monitored by specialists). I don’t feel like homeschoolers need more intervention from the state than any other family (and the number of teachers in our state assaulting kids, well, let’s just say it seems ridiculous). But, when stories like this come out, I understand why the public starts wanting homeschoolers to be more monitored. But usually they swing so far the other way where they want draconian measures – home visits monthly, curriculum approval, etc. And there are many stories of kids being removed from families unjustly and harm done to the kids while in CPS protection. So, I’m not sure what the answer is to protect kids from this.

    What happened in this family is sickening. Makes me want to disconnect from any organized homeschool group.

  41. He needed the permission of his father to report a crime? To the police or to a minister?

    So the church comes out smelling like a rose, and the reason why the issue was reported is because of how great NCFIC patriarchy is. I’m sure that’s the spin.

    If the other quivering daughters in this congregation could get that much justice, I’d be impressed. But that’s not the case with all of the alleged rapes that I’ve been told about in that camp.

    But then, I’m just a tale bearer, a lesbian, a witch, a sorceress, and I don’t know whatever else they say of me in their brand of patriarchy.

    I’m grateful that this girl was rescued. I’ll be grateful on the day of reckoning when all is made right on behalf of all of the abused and neglected girls and young women “under the umbrella of protection” of Scott Brown, patriarchy, the FIC, etc, ad nauseum.

  42. Julie Anne,

    You were posting while I was… Where do you think that these young men learned that they had to check with their family patriarch? Ridiculous.

    Is this not proof that the patriarch in these circles is a demi-god who is due more honor than God Himself? If Dad had said “no,” then those men at Hope Baptist would have stood by to let that girl continue to suffer abuse?

  43. “So the church comes out smelling like a rose, and the reason why the issue was reported is because of how great NCFIC patriarchy is. I’m sure that’s the spin.”

    That is EXACTLY the spin. Homestead used the same spin. It’s their way to deflect attention away from the fact that their teachings PROMOTE this behavior. They try to paint this family as some sort of deviants that just had a lot of “problems.” Duh! The “problem” was that they drank the Patriarchal kook-aid to begin with. Yet, elder Horn steps in to save the day. What a nice shtick. Create a problem, and then beat your chest like a hero for helping to solve it.

  44. I’m not fully processing all of this, so I may have missed something.

    The three sons went to Brown’s church.

    Now, did the family from whence they came follow patriarchy or homeschool, etc? Sadly, I could not help but wonder whether they were after listening to the interview with the sheriff. It was his impression that they were poorly educated. Are these young men examples of “indoctrination” or homeschooling educational neglect? You never know these days…

  45. Something is horribly wrong in that family.

    My heart goes out to the little girl and I pray that she will receive the therapy and support she needs to begin recovery.

    I also wonder what happened to the sons. In my teaching work with teenage boys, I can confidently state that teenage boys are very interested in unrelated teenage girls or young adult women as sexual partners. Contrary to CP’s insane teachings, teenage boys and men are not sex-crazed lunatics who will copulate with anything vaguely female that they are left alone with. These situations always make me wonder if the sons were also sexually abused by someone. I don’t mean to say that the sons are innocent or should not be in the justice system; they are and should be. I just wonder how six males in one house ended up with such an abnormal and abusive sexual assault pattern.

    The parents deserve to be in jail for the rest of their lives. Just that simple.

  46. That’s what I’m trying to figure out, Cindy. When going through the brothers’ Facebook pages, you can clearly see Vision Forum-type Patriarchy influencers. The question is: were these ideologies taught at home or did the brothers bring them home? One thing is clear, the father certainly acted like a Patriarch because the grown adult needed to get his permission to disclose the crimes. The other clues we have is the isolation and anti-government which is common among HSLDA who taught for years to fear the government.

    These young men look all clean-cut – some wearing suits in their mug shots, yet their house/yard was in shambles.

  47. Pingback: Six Homeschool Brothers Arrested for Alleged Sex Abuse against Younger Sister | Spiritual Sounding Board | ThrivinginTruth (UnTangled)

  48. This is so disturbing and sad. I pray this child is given the help she needs to process the nightmare she has lived. I’m glad she is in protective care. I do wonder what kind of counseling a child in CPS receives as I know their funds are limited. I’m also aware of how easily these children/young adults can be revictimized by those who prey on the weak. I really hope she finds love, protection, and is allowed to heal and mature. There is so much for her to process, including the loss of her entire family. The trama will probably unfold a bit at time. It won’t be easy.

  49. Bridget – – This 16 year old victim had no childhood. Who could she go to in her home for safety? Where could she go outside her home? I”m curious about the other family members and what they knew. Were there other girls? There are evidently 11 children in this family. Was she the only one abused? I have so many questions.

  50. brian

    David that has always troubled me it is a bunch of absolutists being relative in their application of their absolutes. Besides being terrible for the poor child suffering the abuse, that should be the primary concern.

    Absolutely! Absolutists simply don’t exist. Those who claim to be absolutists are simply selective about what they claim are absolute to serve their agendas.

    Cindy K, that is some twisted stuff right there. And to think that so many under the leadership of so many false teachers buy into that stuff.

  51. BTDT –

    They don’t get it!! The patriarchal crowd, that is. They simply don’t understand children and child development. Children learn by what they see, and how they and those around them are treated as much, if not more than by head knowledge. When you teach from birth, first time obedience, obey your elders (everyone when you’re 4), men are leaders, women are followers, church leaders are the top leaders, always obey your parents, you are creating perfect storm for abuse to ocurr and be perpetuated. When will patriarchy understand this?!?!? Instead of growing healthy, balanced, young adults, some are growing infantile, stunted young adults who are not prepared to live in the world into which they were born.

  52. Grown sons feeling the need to ask permission for stuff like this is certainly not as isolated in the movement as one would wish. I’ve seen it happen in the Texas community as well.

  53. JA –

    There wasn’t anyone for her to go to(.) The family seems to have even moved to avoid detection. The sad truth is, though, that even if it was only one brother who molests a child in an otherwise healthy home, the victim often doesn’t say anything until they are teens or older.

    I agree with others that something was really sick in this family. Children don’t usually just start this behavior and continue in it, while parents hide it. It’s not normal. The parents and the other children all need to be questioned by police snd CPS, which is usually what happens. I’m surprised that all the children haven’t been removed from the home.

  54. Grown sons feeling the need to ask permission for stuff like this is certainly not as isolated in the movement as one would wish. I’ve seen it happen in the Texas community as well.

    Ryan,

    Thanks for sharing what you witnessed in “Vision Forum” country. It is important for people to see that this is a pattern associated with Patriarchy. It may not be common or may not even be taught so specifically from Patriarchal leaders, but it’s easy to see how Patriarchs can interpret their own ideologies once they are in a position of ultimate control over their wives/families.

  55. “The parents enabled this behavior, did nothing to stop it, in fact did everything to hide. They were essentially cult leaders in their own home.” -JA

    This is my observation of Vision Forum. Vision Forum existed as cult within it’s own community in San Antonio among Doug’s church and it’s sister churches. But it also fostered and spawned many mini or spin-off cults among other NCFIC’s in other areas, and when there was no NCFIC or a family did not line up theologically with the existing NCFIC in their area the family itself would follow Vision Forum teachings and become a cult.

    In this family I wonder if the older boys were allowed to attend Scott’s church, despite a theological difference, in hope of finding spouses. Perhaps while there they began to realize the sin they committed by abusing their sister.

    My question is this, Dan Horn stated that he told the young man to report his crime to the authorities and that if the boy had not Dan would have. How long did Don give the boy? What was the time frame between the boy’s confession to Don and the police report? Was it two years?

  56. “Taunya, your comments always resonate with me. Please keep ‘em coming.”

    Thank you BTDT

    “Taunya, I can so relate to your feelings. I am so sick of the sick and vain arguments also. I think it is time to step on some toes. You are not alone in your feelings.”

    Thanks Leslie! That is why I continue to read/comment here I sense that many, including JA, feel the same!!

  57. One question: Are national secular news sites reporting these stories connected with the NCFIC?

  58. How long did Dan give the boy? What was the time frame between the boy’s confession to Dan and the police report? Was it two years?

    It looks like there were 2 reports: Dan’s report and also Dan went with Eric to report.

    I took a few notes from the first video I posted above in which Dan Horn was interviewed by phone:

    Most of the family have moved out of the North Carolina area.

    3 of the brothers moved to Wake Forest, NC area and began attending Hope Baptist Church.

    One of the older brothers (Eric) went to elder, Dan Horn who said, “there were things going on in the home that he couldn’t talk about, but could talk about at some point in time.”

    Horn said the 3 brothers (Eric, John Mark, and Matthew) were attending Hope Baptist Church and developed a new relationship with God.

    About 9 months later in December 2012, Eric came to Horn after finally receiving permission from father to discuss what had been going on for years in the Jackson home. Eric’s sister had been sexually abused for 10 years by her 6 older brothers. Eric confessed to it all. Horn told Eric he would need to turn himself in and make restitution (by confessing to authorities).

    Horn was present when Eric told a detective everything. Horn was also present when Eric, John Mark, and Matthew turned themselves in.

    Horn had 2 conversations with Eric about the assault. After the first meeting with Eric, Horn reported the assaults to authorities.

    *******

    JA note: Dan Horn’s response was good. There is no doubt about that. I have a big “but” to say, however. The Patriarchy climate of “Father Rule” allows for renegade fathers to run their own homes the way they want, and without any oversight. They don’t have to answer to anyone because in the land of Patriarchy, the Patriarchs rule their roosts. In this climate, Patriarchs will defend other Patriarchs first and that is why when a woman cries out for help, she will often be dismissed as “unsubmissive.”

    It is very fortunate that CPS was finally able to get access to the daughter to question her. Note how long this investigation took before they got access to her – over a year! This family was reluctant to allow the government to poke in their business. This family was strongly anti-government. They had a fence around their property for privacy. Their home was like a compound.

    Dan Horn and Scott Brown wrote a book on Fathers (pictured in the article). Of course they would say that abuse is wrong, but when you give man so much power, power corrupts.

    Although Eric was a primary abuser in this case, I have to give him credit for speaking out and seeking help for his family. He bucked the system. I wonder what made those boys think that sex with their sister was “normal?” Something evil was surely going on in that home for many, many years.

  59. What made those boys think sex with their sister was “normal?” Do Family-Integrated Churches teach against incest? Has anyone asked the question? Where’s 20/20 when you need them.

  60. One of the boys has a auto mechanic business in CO where he comes to you and fixes your car on site. He actually did a few jobs for me late last year! I’m sick to my stomach and in shock.

  61. Did you see the response from Stacy McDonald about this today?

    “What a cushy job it must be to be appointed to judge each situation from afar and inform the Internet public of who and what “should” have been handled differently; of the secret motives of just about anyone; and of what a complete failure all leadership is. If we could only have your great insight and wisdom, Oh Great Internet Solomon. What we need are more Monday Morning Church Elders like you. Then all would be right with the world.”

  62. Disturbed –

    Where has Stacy shared her judgements? Don’t see her blog by googling her name.

  63. Someone tell Ms. McDonald that this is the United States of America. God bless the Founding Fathers, separation of church and state, and the First Amendment.

  64. Disgusting. As to the “Father Rule”, this is also something that seems to promoted heavily among Gothard’s followers as well. It’s a long story, but I cannot tell you how many people in the NCFIC circles have told my husband and I that we need to submit to HIS parents even though my husband is in his 40s, after my husband suffered several medical issues around and shortly after the birth of our first child.

    I hope this poor girl gets the help she needs. My heart goes out to her.

  65. If Stacy’s comments were directed at SSB it’s very predictable. Most people (even the comments on secular news sites!) are responding to this news with shock and revulsion. Who does Stacy go after? Those who are discussing it. “Dontcha know you’re not supposed to talk about these things? Sweep them under the rug. Hide them in the closets. (Unless, of course, it happens in a public school. In that case, feel free to flame away.)”

    It’s downright frightening to have the light exposing her pet ideology. This doesn’t mesh with the PR image of Patriarchal Homeschooling that the leaders have worked so hard to promote.

  66. What made those boys think sex with their sister was “normal?” Do Family-Integrated Churches teach against incest? Has anyone asked the question?

    Since we’re talking Christianese Patriarchy, maybe it was what hung between their legs and NOT their little sister’s. Them Male, her Female, Penetrate, Colonize, Conquer, Plant, Q.E.D.

  67. P.S. This is worse than Craster’s Keep in Game of Thrones. To use St Paul’s terminology from Corinthians, this is “something that is not even named among the goyim.”

  68. I don’t want to take away from the crime committed against this young girl, but I would like to know more about the brothers. If this sexual abuse started when she was four, then some of her brothers would have been around 7, 9, and 11. Who was instructing them to sexually touch their sister? I do believe there should be major consequences to anyone who victimizes young children, but I assume this situation must be more complex than that of an older sibling sadistically abusing a younger one. I am not advocating a pass for anyone involved, but with some of the siblings closer to her age, the victim may have some very complex feelings. I do believe this situation probably originates from earlier family dynamics imbedded in the family structure: parents, grandparents or uncles/aunts. I pray for wisdom for the authorities who are involved with all the siblings. As for the parents, they can rot in solitary for the next thousand years.

  69. Ann,

    You raise a very good point and I think we also need to consider that these young men are Second Generation Adults and most likely raised in a high controlling environment. The biggest evidence that we see is the eldest son requiring permission from his father in order to reveal the family secret to an outsider. We must look at the big picture.

  70. My best friend was molested by her father and two of her brothers. It has had an immeasurable negative affect on her life, the lives of her own family of origin, and the lives of her children, not to mention the pressure it has put on her marriage. What I would not give to see the past undone so that this would have never happened to her. It becomes a lifelong tangled mess that you spend the rest of your life trying to sort out.

    I’m just …. What does one say? This is horrible and sickening and a mess.

  71. Taunya, our family is at home Sunday mornings as well. Neither my husband nor I have any desire to spend time there. We are still trying to figure out what we believe beyond salvation. I will be praying for you because I know how discouraging it is!

  72. http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/when-home-is-worse-than-rape-coras-story/

    “Rape flourishes when a girl is told marriage is how she obtains worth, and virginity is how she gets married. When her virginity is stolen, she will never tell. Rape flourishes when women are told that they are at fault, and face dire consequences if they reveal their rapist. Rape flourishes when women aren’t taught about their bodies, told that they aren’t able to make their own choices, and how to identify predatory behavior or even that it is wrong. Rape flourishes when it’s always a woman’s fault when a man has desire. Rape flourishes when you teach your boys that they own and control women.”

    And what do you do if you have no safe place? The author of this quote found solace away from home. What if you’re home all the time? What if you aren’t even old enough to understand what is happening to you?

    Rape is about control. The so-called “Biblical patriarchy” movement is about control and male privilege.

  73. I don’t want to take away from the crime committed against this young girl, but I would like to know more about the brothers. If this sexual abuse started when she was four, then some of her brothers would have been around 7, 9, and 11. Who was instructing them to sexually touch their sister?

    I heard much the same from a radio talk-show host in the Eighties. One of the phone-ins was talking about how her daughter was sexually molested — Clinton/Driscoll not-really-sexually — by a boy not much older than her. (I think both kids involved were under 10.)
    The talk-host’s comment that sticks in my mind was “I’d like to know how an X-year-old boy learned about oral sex and how to do it.”

  74. Call me crazy but I can’t help thinking these young men are victims as well.

    A17 year old young man from a family in our former NCFIC remarked that he did not know Mexicans could have nice trucks after some Mexican employees of his father came to their house in a nice new one. He is a very intelligent young man, homeschooled all of his life who has traveled to many Vision Forum conferences and even to out of the country on a mission trips with his family. They do live in the deep rural south and most of the minorities in the area are poor but this young man should have known better. He was so sheltered, his world so carefully managed, that he had no idea of what the real world was like. Mexicans can be lawyers, doctors, rich, poor, hello?? :)

    It makes me wonder what the young men in this family have been taught, how much they have been sheltered. I also read that they seemed to have low I.Q’s this would make it even easier for the parents to control them. Did the parents lead the boys to believe what they were doing was no worse than say teasing or pulling hair. Were some of the boys sheltered and slow enough to believe it until they started hearing differently in Scott Brown’s church? Just wondering.

  75. “What a cushy job it must be to be appointed to judge each situation from afar and inform the Internet public of who and what “should” have been handled differently; of the secret motives of just about anyone; and of what a complete failure all leadership is. If we could only have your great insight and wisdom, Oh Great Internet Solomon. What we need are more Monday Morning Church Elders like you. Then all would be right with the world.”

    No Stacy, It is not “cushy” at all. It is bone chilling evil that those who love truth and justice bear. I am so grieved for this young girl I can barely stand it. Yes, those of us who believe in living out the kingdom now know exactly how it should have been handled differently. Those brothers should have been her protector. Not her rapists. Where did they learn they had such entitlement to gratify themselves off their own sister and damage her for life? The father had to be consulted before they confessed? Where do boys and grown men come across such entitlement thinking? That is the world you promote.

    Patriarchal entitlement is nothing but Satan running the show. Maybe you could learn a thing or two from Abigail.

    Stacy what sort of an evil world do you live in?

    –Internet Solomon (wisdom and insight gratis)

  76. Didn’t one of the sharper iron site founders rape his own sister and he is an IFB patriarchal pastor?

  77. Call me crazy but I can’t help thinking these young men are victims as well.

    Taunya, you are not crazy for thinking this. Just hearing the fact that a grown man had to ask daddy’s permission has told me worlds about the home environment. These boys were sheltered/isolated – even the neighbors said that. A mother – – A MOTHER – – who walks away from her own defenseless daughter who is being sexually violated???? Come on . . . something is wrong, wrong , WRONG in this home!

  78. Disturbed,

    Did you get a screenshot of Stacy’s comment? I still haven’t been able to access it with the link or on her Facebook page.

  79. Upstream someone in either a typo or a stroke of genius, mentioned that people in some churches (spell that cults) appear to have drunk the “kook-aid”. I like that, in part because it suggests that the leader is a kook (often so) and that they have consumed (believed) something that helps the kook stay in power!!! Brilliant, even if accidental. I recommend that we generally not refer any more to Kool-Aid, as it is an innocent commercial product, and instead refer to Kook-Aid.

  80. @Lydia:

    Those brothers should have been her protector. Not her rapists. Where did they learn they had such entitlement to gratify themselves off their own sister and damage her for life?

    As I said up above, they didn’t need to look any farther than between their legs.

    They were male, she was female, their entire world in that family compound was Male Supremacist. You can connect the dots from there.

  81. BTDT, Don’t know if this was a typo or deliberate–‘kook-aid’ or ‘Kool-Aid’–either way, this about describes it all!

    “. . .they drank the Patriarchal kook-aid to begin with. . . “

  82. “Kook-aid” actually was a typo. When I saw my mistake it seemed rather apropos. Maybe it was a Freudian slip? :-)

  83. This is easy, presbyteroi, if someone has molested a child, report it! Romans 13, etc.

  84. This is absolutely terrible. However:

    “Studies by David Finkelhor, Director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center, show that:

    – 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse;
    – Self-report studies show that 20% of adult females and 5-10% of adult males recall a childhood sexual assault or sexual abuse incident;
    – During a one-year period in the U.S., 16% of youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;
    – Over the course of their lifetime, 28% of U.S. youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;
    – Children are most vulnerable to CSA between the ages of 7 and 13.”

    http://www.victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

    I think we should wake up and realize that the problem isn’t limited to this one movement. It is truly sick that it is happening everywhere.

  85. I’m still trying to figure out if the Patriarchy people teach the phone number 911, and know what Romans 13 states in regards to secular authority. As far as I am concerned, these people can repent and be sorry for their actions all they want…from a jail cell, and then have visits from the clergy…at the convenience of the sheriff’s office who controls the visits. Why did the brothers first go to the church to confess? They should have first went to confess to the police first, and then requested a clergy visit.

    Did they, the brothers think that they clergy would somehow shelter them from the police, and thus they would face no civil consequences for their actions? I think that this needs to be looked at from the mind of the brothers. If they thought that the clergy would shelter them from the authorities, maybe this is why they went to the clergy to begin with, instead of the police. Ya think?

    Ed

  86. I read the article, and it sounds tragic. My prayers go out for the girl. I did notice that some of the brothers were not that much older than her and would have all been children when the molestation happened which makes me wonder were they all being victims of abuse. It still tragic all around.

  87. @ChapmanEd24:

    Did they, the brothers think that they clergy would somehow shelter them from the police, and thus they would face no civil consequences for their actions?

    Let’s look at precedent:
    Sovereign Grace (HUMBLY, of course)…
    Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf…
    Calvary Chapel Abuse blog…
    Wartburg Watch blog…
    This blog…

  88. Looking at the brothers Facebook pages, they have many friends from the Colorado Springs area that go to Kevin Swanson’s church and many of those have ties to VF, and the NCFIC. Is this where they have been attending church while there? If so were they, Kevin’s church notified why they were there? I don’t know anything but do think it odd that Colorado Springs is where they landed in the whole USA! This is so sad and a tragedy and life left in shreds. Praying this young lady will get some much needed protection and help.

  89. I see that Jordan Muela has answered part of my question above in regards to one of the brothers was already a member and the family attended a different church there in the same group/denomination as the McDonalds. This was on Jordan’s Facebook page.

  90. I have been reading the posts on several different websites. I have two thoughts on all of this.

    1. Where are the Christians who are empowered by the Holy Spirit. In the DP incident and this one this seems to be lacking big time. In the BG scenario it looks like some people tried, but failed to bring him to account. Jesus said He would be leaving , but would send a Helper. (ie Holy Spirit). What has happened?. Do we not have the power to call down false prophets and teachers? I do think God is using the web to bring this to light. It still amazes me that so many people were so blinded for so long. Supposedly born again, spirit filled Christians.

    2. I think I will save the second thought for later.

  91. NotFooledAnymore – Are you saying the rest of the family, including parents (or just some of the adult children), attended a church affiliated with James McDonald’s church?

  92. Jordan’s Facebook page is public. He stated, “Apparently after the family fled NC with the girl in tow, they wound in the Colorado Springs area where one of the boys was already a member at Kevin P. Swanson’s church before he and other family members started attending a different church in the same CPC denomination as James McDonald.” There are quite a few comments below from James McDonald and others if you are interested in looking there.

    Not sure about anything other than this is what I saw on there.

  93. @NFA:

    I don’t know anything but do think it odd that Colorado Springs is where they landed in the whole USA!

    Well, Colo Spgs has been described as “The Christian Culture War Capital of the US”…

  94. No, sorry that is not it. I hope I did this correctly, but I think this should get you there .https://www.facebook.com/jordanmuela This is the same Jordan Muela who wrote the article How Silence Enables Abuse and was accused by Doug along with Peter Bradrick a while back.

  95. Yea, you must be friends with him, because that page is not public. I didn’t think the link I posted was the correct Muela. I remember when his page was public before and read that particular article (and it was pretty good).

  96. “What a cushy job it must be to be appointed to judge each situation from afar and inform the Internet public of who and what “should” have been handled differently; of the secret motives of just about anyone; and of what a complete failure all leadership is. If we could only have your great insight and wisdom, Oh Great Internet Solomon. What we need are more Monday Morning Church Elders like you. Then all would be right with the world.”

    Honestly Stacy, if you had the Spirit of Christ leading you, instead of your own religious philosophy, you would have the same great insight and wisdom we all have. And yes, if we had less abuse leaders like you and James, things may not be perfect, but you are right, things would be better with the world and specifically, the true Church of Jesus Christ.

  97. It must have just been taken down as I was not a friend of his. Just periodically check his page as I felt his article on silence was good and try to find balanced thinking in the midst of all this chaos.

  98. When the brothers turned themselves in, most of them were emotionless.

    “The first kid, it seems to be like a relief, but even when they came to turn themselves in last week, it was like, ‘We’re here.’ I don’t think they know the magnitude of what they’ve done because I don’t think they knew it was wrong,” says Sheriff Tilley, “They haven’t been taught any differently. I’m not sure when that’s going to sink in exactly what they were doing was wrong.”

    http://wtkr.com/2014/05/12/six-brothers-parents-charged-with-sexual-abuse-of-girl/

  99. Yes, it looks like Jordan has dropped off FB again or at least removed the article. I know him personally and he has written some good things on abuse lately. I was trying to post my comment on it, but it said it had been removed. This is my comment I was trying to leave:

    We just simply need to stop calling people, places and practices “Christian”, that bear fruit of demons and not of the Spirit of Christ. If a “church” cloaks and covers over heinous sin, then they are no “church” at all, because they are not following Scripture. Christ did not die, so that we could go on sinning and get off the hook for it. The first thing that needs to happen when someone is found in the Church to be committing sin like this, is for them to be escorted to the door and the door shut, with them on the other side, and the law called and the offense reported – period. The next step, is to aid the victim(s) in whatever way the Church can – no excuses. We need to stop having a relationship with all of our “religious practices” (the list is long) and start defining Christianity according to Christ and having a relationship with Him. We have no way of knowing “who” is molesting children in a home or Church, (or any other place) until it comes to the light. But, what happens at that precise moment, is what proves if that Church is a true Church of Jesus Christ – or not. What Horn did was good, but he left off a lot of what should have been done. The Bible actually says that we must “bear fruit in keeping with repentance”, so just saying that someone’s repentance is to be trusted, after committing abuse, is not really Scriptural. I wonder how much money will be donated by Brown’s Church, to the aid of this girl’s recovery and counseling.

  100. NFA, are you saying that James McDonald was commenting on Jordan’s post? If not, can you copy those comments and paste them here for us to read?

  101. There was some dialogue between him and Jordan but since it is down I am not able to do so now. Sorry.

  102. Off Topic Comic Relief. And I really needed some. This whole thing is horrible.

    I may have stumbled on to Phillips in his new career: Hok-ing robots. He has previous experience hok-ing to robots. Hok nit kain tchynik!

  103. Honestly I was curious at first about the fact that they ended up in CO Springs. Then had just seen it and glanced at them planning to go back and study what was being said further and then it was gone. Will do the screen shot on things in the future. This computer tech stuff is not my thing!

  104. Cindy K said: “Is this not proof that the patriarch in these circles is a demi-god who is due more honor than God Himself? If Dad had said “no,” then those men at Hope Baptist would have stood by to let that girl continue to suffer abuse?”

    Ah, Cindy, you think like I do. The most horrifying thing that keeps being revealed in these cases, is that children are growing up in [supposedly Christian] homes where they are not even free to report on the horrors that go on in their lives, because they are under the total sway of patriarchy.

    Am I the only one who desperately wants to type “fuehrer” instead of “father” for some of these disgusting examples of humanity? Its no wonder they believe in total deparavity, since they, themsleves, would appear to be depraved. (Totally).

  105. Headless Unicorn Guy said: ‘ “Forget about filling your mind with wickedness from the Chronicles of Narnia and the Lord of the Rings and read things worth reading”

    Like how to turn your little sister into your pass-around sex toy?’

    HUG, again, you speak my mind.

  106. They don’t appear to live in a compound. I’ve seen compounds – there was nothing “compounded” there. It’s just a house with a gate/fence – albeit an unfortunate looking property. Also, if you peruse Eric’s facebook, there is no reason to think he was uneducated by any means. I found maybe one grammar mistake or typo, and even it looked like it may be a play on words. He was probably just terribly nervous. To think that the girl being in protective care (a foster home) is a nice idea of CPS and foster home, but sadly, it is not at all a guarantee that the girl is in good hands. I know CPS, have been a foster parent, and our local agency had approximately 33 children die on their watch when I was fostering. You do NOT want your child hauled off to CPS. There is no need to make things worse than they are. The situation is really bad by itself. Finally, understand the movement – sometimes it is the children, and not the adults, who bring these ideas home and try to submit to things that the parents don’t even understand or care about. The son asking permission from the father could have been an idea borne out of his own ignorance or suggested by his church. It is not necessarily the reflection of the father of the home. Please don’t get me wrong – I am all for the parents rotting in jail FOREVER and the boys doing massive time and the girl getting help – but I don’t think jumping to conclusions helps anything or anyone in reality. The truth will come out – just like it did with Phillips. Apologies for no paragraphs…

    PS: The essential oil thing is a direct marketing thing – in other words a multi level marketing gig/scam. MLM’s work well where leaders of movements can have access to eager followers. Ca’ching! $$

  107. I should have proofread before I posted. Hope people can make sense out of what I wrote about CPS in spite of my overly tired typo-ing hand.

    Bottom line, we need a good child protection system. We just don’t have one. We have a lot of social workers began meaning well, but don’t have the support they need, are overly taxed with three times the caseloads they should be carrying, and there are sickos in the system posing as child loving foster parents. Of course there are great foster parents also – maybe I’ve seen too much. Many kids get placed in homes with kids who have been sexually abused and then those kids sexually abuse the new kids and so on. So many scenarios.

    I know the temptation we have toward black and white thinking. We need balance. At least I do. A lot of homeschooling is FABULOUS, a lot is twisted. A lot of families in FICs are wonderful – some are nut jobs. Some kids will end up in great foster homes, some will continue to endure abuse. Some kids in public schools are brilliant – some are barely educated. Some homeschooling kids are wonderfully well educated and well balanced, some are uneducated and pathetically sheltered. Ok, one other thing – FICs are not alone in following the traditions and doctrines of men – charismatics do it, evangelicals do it – it’s everywhere- patriarchy doesn’t corner the market on insane theology that leads to insane behavior and wounded people everywhere. Some brands are worse than others – but anything that’s not grace alone/faith alone/Christ alone is simply another gospel. It was predicted. It’s really not amazing that we see so much.

    It’s sad, but it’s exactly what God said would happen and false gospels have been spread since the beginning of Christianity. We need to respond well without overreacting. I include myself! Of course, there is backlash to despicable behavior, I understand that. I don’t mean to imply that people won’t be outraged over these things – it’s the speculative nature to which I am referring – it’s natural – but fruitless. Maybe I’ve overloaded my post. I haven’t posted anywhere about these things for some time, as these blogs are heavily monitored and I’m careful in that regard.

  108. oneh20,

    I must disagree with you (unless I’ve really misunderstood you).

    Sometimes the kids bring some new practice home… Lets assume that the eldest boy was violated himself first. He then habituated his brothers and his sister into this behavior. They are all victims, as this became their level of “normal” in their homeschooling environment which is somewhat isolated by definition — perhaps more so given the testimony about their unkempt homestead. (People who are more connected with the world do a much better job in general of caring for their environment.)

    NOTE: Eric lists his education as “homeschooled” on his Facebook page.

    How does that explain the parents’ behavior? The father knew enough and the sons had some idea of what their father knew — enough that he had to ask specific permission from him to tell someone else — regarding a felony. Both parents failed these children, some of whom are now adults.

    Add another page at the list of Homeschooling’s Invisible Children.

    The FIC movement is built around homeschooling — a religious affinity group for homeschoolers. It isn’t just the NCFIC. It’s the RPCGA. Look back on the internet archive at their site. One of their five mission foci was homeschooling as a foundational purpose for their existence. This group of people, evangelists of the FIC, specifically vilifies anything other than homeschooling, some to greater degrees than others.

    So you’re saying that because other denominations and Christians who believe a wide range of things (including Arminianism and Semi-pelegianism) follow traditions of men that we shouldn’t……? We shouldn’t what exactly? Try to hold one another accountable as Christians?

    We are Christians and are supposed to present an excellent witness to the world. We’re supposed to be living epistles to be known and read of all men through honesty and transparency. We claim that we have the best moral answers to offer to the dying world so that it can be redeemed. We’re supposed to be working to redeem it. Saints persevered and fought for us all to have liberty and freedom about how we wanted to educate our children. We claimed that we could do it better than the world could in the beginning. It was an holistic approach to the life of children that was supposed to exceed what the public school could offer on all levels.

    But freedom comes with duty. When it became all about politics and cults of personality selling lifestyles and empty promises and autonomy with the false label of “Calvinist” over everything, the group as a whole dropped the ball. These abuses and problems and 350+ documented cases of abused children, too many of whom are dead, there’s some evidence that there are problems that need to be faced. Religious Evangelical Christian Homeschoolers need to come to terms with the problems — from educational neglect to abuse.

    We don’t have what we claim to offer as a whole, and as a whole group, don’t we have a duty as Christians to police ourselves? If people dealt honestly with the problems all along, there would be no cause for criticism. But there are alumni who can’t even get into homeschooling conventions to talk about the problems because people are too busy indulging their denial. The problems are written off as freak examples.

    If anyone has the duty and the right to scrutinize matters, it should be Christians. We should want to do it and do it honestly so that the world has no cause to do it for us. But that’s not the case.

    I love Rushdoony’s love of decentralization. Freedom calls good and moral men to embrace their responsibility. But the core of homeschooling and the leaders who emerged from homeschooling are not doing that well enough. So the outcry began in Christian circles — not because those who are critical were seduced by the world but because they have a sacred duty to be responsible for their own.

    And if we don’t honor our own responsibility and deal with our own problems in our own house, someone else will be forced to come in to do it for us.

    The FIC has had some sober wake-up calls recently, but they’ve had challenges and messages about the problems all along. And we have some that can’t step back far enough from what they like about these systems to see them in a clearer perspective.

    What I see in your comment, oneh20, is more of the reaction that keeps these things hidden — and since we all sin and sin happens everywhere, we should lighten up.

    IMO, that’s what has created this ongoing problem. We need to quit worshiping the ideal and deal with the reality that has grown from institutionalized ideas that end up facilitating abuse. We don’t even monitor for them, and we don’t even know about the numbers of children who suffer in silence. And when alumni come forward to bear testimony, they are opposed and ignored and called apostates.

  109. You know, there were two primary responses to the Schatz Family and Lydia’s death among homeschoolers. Some said that these were freak examples of deplorable and despicable people who were monsters. And then, there were those who stopped and said “But for grace, there go I.” Many of those people who risked identifying with the Schatz Family and those who knew them and took pity on them and realized that they were one of their own had to leave their churches because of the backlash against them.

    Sarah Hunt tweeted this week that we are all Homeschooling’s Invisible Children. She is among those who survived much difficulty very well, but she knows that, but for grace, she might not have. She could be Lydia. She could be the Johnson daughter.

    It’s convenient to say “I’d never do that.” I’m sure those who ended up hurting their children have thought the same things at the beginning of their journey. But they lost perspective.

    When you make an idol out of father rule and place that above the Golden Rules, it falls apart. Some of us are lucky and don’t suffer the heaviest consequences. And some do. Don’t we have a duty to be advocates for those lost ones and the ones who “fall through the cracks”? What happened to Matthew 25 and the least of these?

  110. What is reacting or responding “appropriately” to a situation like this?

    What is “going overboard”?

    Maybe that’s my question.

  111. Hi Cindy, First, I appreciate your work and was just watching one of your conference videos tonight. I can’t explain much here, but you’ve misunderstood me on many levels. If you would like to get my email address, I’d be happy to respond and clarify.

  112. Stacy McDonald latest comment

    13 hours ago
    .

    In reference to my earlier comment, please know that my intent was not to be snarky or maliciously allusive. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, then be glad and move on. It’s just Facebook.

    But to those who do know what I’m talking about, keep in mind, it is easy to sit back and judge what your elders or other authorities should have done in difficult, often tragic or heartbreaking circumstances. But it’s very, very prideful to do so.

    People have no idea how many hours of tears, prayer, work, outside counsel, daily attacks, and self-doubting that goes on when their elders are faced with difficult leadership issues and decisions. Most of the elders I know take their responsibility very, very seriously – and it’s a heavy one – and more often than not, a painful one. So, as an elder’s wife, it’s doubly frustrating to hear so many people seem to think they “could have done it better.” You honestly have no idea.

    And, in this case, my status was not inspired by anything going on in our life in particular – I just recognize the trauma when I scroll through my feed lately. I see pain, I see abuse, I see abuse of abuse, I see opportunists, I see gossip, I see hatred, I see bitterness, I see slander, I see judgment. And I see very, very little grace or love – even by those who scream about it the loudest.

    And to those church elders out there who are trying your best to shepherd your little flocks – who are loving and serving the Lord’s people by the grace of God – and often getting kicked in the teeth for it, I for one appreciate your efforts. I know you’re not perfect, but I know you serve a perfect God. And He is still on His throne. Stay faithful and keep your face heavenward and don’t be distracted by the voices of the mob.

    May He give you the wisdom, discernment, focus, stamina, clarity, and strength to fulfill your call.

    She really get under my skin……URGH!!!!!!!!

  113. oneh20,

    Can you respond and clarify here?

    I don’t see anyone painting this family up as the poster child for homeschooling or as the prototypical example.

    I think that what this speaks to is the problem of those cases that don’t ever get reported and how long things endure unnoticed, particularly when the tradeoffs of the system become magnified. (Fewer people in the larger community have interaction with homeschooled children, so there is less opportunity to note a problem, let alone intervene or to provide info to people that help is even available. It’s not accessible.)

    And where credit is due, Dan Horn did the right thing by encouraging these young men to do what is right. And it appears that they were convicted about the problem in North Carolina in ways that they were not when they lived elsewhere. That’s to Dan Horn’s credit.

    I’m concerned that, to exonerate this particular community of FIC churches, this will be exploited to their advantage to claim that the FIC always does the right thing and that they are somehow champions of women and children. As a group, and I believe even as a local group, they don’t behave this way consistently.

    I don’t understand why that discussion can’t ensue online here.

  114. A newbee. Bill – Am I missing something here? Six homosexual brothers raping their sister? I am not a homosexual but that would not happen. As for punishment christian or not, they need castrated for punishment and for example. Sorry. The church needs investigated and dis banned. I think all churches or religious groups should be certified and monitored. Groups will prey on the weak minded.

  115. From Stacy M’s comments posted by Theresa N:

    “. . . it is easy to sit back and judge what your elders or other authorities should have done in difficult, often tragic or heartbreaking circumstances. But it’s very, very prideful to do so.”

    “. . . I see opportunists, I see gossip, I see hatred, I see bitterness, I see slander, I see judgment. And I see very, very little grace or love – even by those who scream about it the loudest.”

    These sound like thought-terminating cliches to me. In Stacy’s mind, we’re not supposed to notice the rotten fruit or examine the roots of a bad ideology. In Stacy’s mind, the victim is not a young lady who was molested by six of her brothers for a decade. In Stacy’s mind, the true victims are the leaders of her pet ideology. (Poor, poor them. They’ve suffered such abuse. {sarcasm} )

    She should be ashamed of herself for playing the victim when a young lady has suffered real evil and abuse. I hope others reading will take notice. If you follow these “leaders'” ideology and suffer a crisis, YOU will be the one at fault. THEY will assume no responsibility, and will see themselves as the real victims.

  116. I don’t think that anyone here is belaboring respect due to elders and pastors who serve the flock – who are to receive double honor, according to what Paul wrote to Timothy. Scripture is clear on the duty owed to those who serve, if not out of love for God and the Body, then just based on duty.

    The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard[a]at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”  Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. (1 Tim 5:17-19)

    Miriam was struck with Leprosy for mouthing off to Moses. The earth opened up and swallowed the sons of Korah, too. That’s not flippant stuff to be treated glibly.

    But, bring this matter into context, and I think that we have three issues under discussion:

    1. The bad fruit of aberrant pseudo-Christianity, if it even constitutes Christianity at all. Several times when I’ve addressed this topic of the Family Integrated Church and its associated patriarchy, experts in Christian apologetics have classified the group in the “pagan” category of new religions.

    2. The discussion of advice given to parishioners regarding felonies – sexual assault and abuse of minors within isolated communities.

    3. Said psuedo-Christian group was established around and in support of homeschooling as a lifestyle. The conversation seems focused on how we can identify and prevent such situations, expressing concern for victims and the would-be predators.

    It never hurts to bear repeating the Word.

    I think within this context, against the backdrop of history, and the track record of this group, some different Scriptures may apply a bit better. I recently mentioned Matthew 25 concerning the least of the brethren and the pitfalls of a system that tends to keep problem situations isolated and out of the attention of people who could help. Feel free to add on to the list.

    And I suppose that we could also throw in there the different views of what one believes the responsibilities of an elder are, as they do differ across denominations, particularly when many FICs practice ecclesiocentricity.

    http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/02/rulers-or-servants.html

  117. There’s another issue that I find critical that has not yet been raised, that I’ve read here. Note that the first word spoken about the matter came from a male. I know many females who have taken similar matters or even matters that were not so sensational to their patriarchal elders and were not taken seriously. In many cases, the husband is defended and the wife is blamed. I can’t even count the number of women who have told me about how they tried to tell parents and people in their church and were not believed — either about whether the matter at hand actually took place or who was responsible for problems.

    Males and females are treated differently within these groups. Reports of abuse from women are treated very differently in the FIC and in patriarchy, and one need not look very far to see evidence of that history.

  118. Stacy McDonald is like captain of the space cadets. You have to know her story ( the real one, not the one she tells ) to understand just how wacked out the woman is. It’s easier to cut Stacy a break when you realize that everything she says is designed and carefully crafted by her patriarchal husband to protect their little World, profit centers or fiefdom for lack of a less accurate word. It would be kind of like holding a bunch of murders against a member of the Manson family of psychopath killers….

    The psychopath really doesn’t care or even get what they are doing because they are NUTS.

    Mod note: Removed some extra words. Please no name calling.

  119. BTDT, that is exactly what defines spiritually abusive leaders. There is a problem – you talk about the problem – you become the problem.

    McDonald’s church teaches that the congregants are to follow their leaders, unquestioningly, whether they are right or wrong, and to just “trust your leaders” to be doing what is right – aka – Spiritual Abuse 101. Hence Stacy’s tirade about the poor elders. We are called to follow Christ, not leaders. We are only to submit to our elders, when they are leading us biblically and in the way of righteousness, pointing us to Christ, not themselves. We are only to follow when the leadership is doing its job, which includes being beneath the Church, supporting and upholding Christ’s teachings, not their own silly doctrines. Instead, the teaching of McDonald’s CPC is that the elders are to be followed and trusted, without question – and if you question – woe to you. I cannot tell you, how many times I heard those words fall out of the mouths of those people there. McDonalds also teach Federal Vision, which states that as long as a person has been baptized and is a member of a Church, they are a Christian. This is not in keeping with the Gospel. No one in their church has to show fruit unto repentance, or a new life in Christ (a new creation), they just have to be baptized and join the CPC church. This theory gives more power and control to the leaders. I am not certain why the pages of the Bible that talk about knowing who is a Christian in this world, by their fruit, have been torn from these so called churches. If you read through some of the comments on Stacy’s blog, you will see that she believes that DP is repentant and should be coddled now and brought back into the flock. Excuse me? Was he ever even put out? See? There is no waiting to see if someone is truly repentant (which in my humble opinion, DP is not) like the Bible gives us example to do in 1 & 2 Corinthians. She may not feel the same way about these 6 thugs and their parents though, because they are not famous and have not at one time published one of her books. *sigh*

    I think at some point, in order to have truth and peace in our own lives, we just have to cast off these false churches and blind people in them, and move on toward Christ and leave them to Jesus and just try to help those who have been victimized either by the leaders of these places, or by the families that belong to these places.

    There is so much to be told about the McDonalds and their own abuses, that it is just overwhelming. I feared that perhaps God would let them stand in this whole mess, but I think now that the door has been opened to include the CPC in this latest catastrophic mess, that my fears have dissipated. Up to this point, they seem to have gotten away with a lot of abuses.

  120. BTDT:

    These sound like thought-terminating cliches to me.

    Spoken (or in this case, typed) like an overcomer.

    I think that some people forget that we are given the Spirit of Love, Power, and a Sound Mind. We are given the Spirit who witnesses to us and gives us spiritual discernment. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth from the spirit of error. No?

    Jesus told Pilate that “They that are of the truth hear me.”

    May God richly bless Dan Horn. Abundantly. May he know the hope of his calling and not settle for anything less than ALL that God wants to reveal to him in wisdom and grace. May God minister to the whole Jackson family. May this be a good opportunity for those affiliated with an FIC to gain wisdom and to examine what they are doing, why, and the nature of fruit of their labors. Grace abounds to us when we are in error. And through this mess, may we discern more clearly just who listens to whom.

  121. So let me get this straight.. No one at Scott’s church has any idea what has happened with the family. Only 2-3 of the sons start attending the church and no one at the church has met or seen the rest of the family. One of the sons feels convicted about their sin AFTER attending the church for a while…Hmm..could it be he finally was getting decent biblical teaching at the church which made him realize the need to confess his sin and take responsibility? Then when he does confess to Dan Horne..action is immediately take to report it to the authorities (and Dan stated he would do it himself if the son did not).

    I’m confused why everyone is blaming Scott Brown/Dan Horn and their church? It sounds like they did everything correctly and biblically. Of course the parents and sons need to be jailed/punished if found guilty.. but how are we blaming all this on the NCFIC and Scott Brown?

    I guess we have to make the logical assumption that the family was twisted/warped from all the Patriarchy books/sermons they must of heard from VF or NCFIC and that’s what caused it. It’s also good to know that this type sexual abuse never happens outside of Homeschool Christian families. So now we can just ban homeschooling and that should solve all the sexual abuse problems.

  122. But to those who do know what I’m talking about, keep in mind, it is easy to sit back and judge what your elders or other authorities should have done in difficult, often tragic or heartbreaking circumstances. But it’s very, very prideful to do so.

    Here, I’ll interpret this in more understandable lingo: It’s never appropriate to question/challenge your elders or “authorities.” Notice she immediately says those who do are prideful. Pride is a sin. So, essentially, she’s saying anyone who questions/challenges authority is in sin.

    Stacy, I know you are reading here. That is the first sign of spiritual abuse and I just got started with your comment. It is time for you to get off your high horse. You are not in authority. Your husband, if he is a church leader, should be observed and challenged. That is Biblical. Quit spewing your nonsense.

  123. People have no idea how many hours of tears, prayer, work, outside counsel, daily attacks, and self-doubting that goes on when their elders are faced with difficult leadership issues and decisions. Most of the elders I know take their responsibility very, very seriously – and it’s a heavy one – and more often than not, a painful one. So, as an elder’s wife, it’s doubly frustrating to hear so many people seem to think they “could have done it better.” You honestly have no idea.

    More from Stacy above. Ok, she and her husband chose to be in leadership. They want the spotlight on them and now they whine when the spotlight shines on them and oh my, their true colors are showing. Godly leaders do not publicly whine about how they are treated. There seems to be a verse in the Bible about persecution. Godly leaders suck it up quietly or get out of ministry because it is not about them. Notice for Stacy, it is about them. Dead giveaway. More rotten fruit.

  124. Creole, I think people are just saying that there could have been better follow through, for the sake of the child involved. I see where many, myself included, praise Horn for his response, but the question remains, what about the victim and who was looking out and after her? Isn’t that what we, as Christians, are to do?

    JA, yes, these are the classic markers of spiritual abuse and that is exactly what she is doing. I agree with your counsel to her. They keep trying to hide behind that “hierarchy” doctrine they love so much. When Jesus confronted the Pharisees, he confronted their “courts”, by warning us true believers, that we would be drug before such type courts in the future and punished and thrown out, for standing for Christ’s truths and righteousness. They misinterpret His words here and think that Jesus was condoning such nonsense and actually establishing this form of hierarchy, which He most certainly, was not. He was tearing it down. I truly believe, that IF God had given the McDonalds and their cohorts the power and control over me and my children that they so craved, that we all would have been burned at the stake in the parking lot – or maybe at a backyard party at their home.

  125. More of Stacy’s Facebook comment:

    And, in this case, my status was not inspired by anything going on in our life in particular – I just recognize the trauma when I scroll through my feed lately. I see pain, I see abuse, I see abuse of abuse, I see opportunists, I see gossip, I see hatred, I see bitterness, I see slander, I see judgment. And I see very, very little grace or love – even by those who scream about it the loudest.

    She sees abuse going through her feed? What kind of abuse? You mean real abuse like the little girl who was raped for 10 years? Is that the kind of abuse she’s talking about? Because in context, her whole tirade has been about the “abuse” of church leaders. The hatred/gossip/bitterness/slander/judgment – – – that all seems to apply to those who dare to question authority. And then she says she sees little grace or love. If I’m going along with her thought, she’s saying she sees little grace or love towards church leaders? Am I reading this right?

    And to those church elders out there who are trying your best to shepherd your little flocks – who are loving and serving the Lord’s people by the grace of God – and often getting kicked in the teeth for it, I for one appreciate your efforts. I know you’re not perfect, but I know you serve a perfect God. And He is still on His throne. Stay faithful and keep your face heavenward and don’t be distracted by the voices of the mob.

    May He give you the wisdom, discernment, focus, stamina, clarity, and strength to fulfill your call.

    Ok, see, these last 2 paragraphs sure seem to be more of the same – – it’s about church leaders who are “abused.” What we see here is Stacy is modeling to the world how she thinks we should be responding to our church leaders who “get their teeth kicked in” by mean church people who question their authority. She thinks we need to extol them, build them up, tell them to not listen to those meanies who question their authority.

    Notice “strength to fulfill your call.” Maybe I’m picky, but that sounds self-serving. I thought ministry work was God’s work.

    Oh boy, it must be so hard to be a victimized church leader where you have a following who latches onto every word. Bring out the violins. I just noticed she has over 125 “likes” on her comment.

    Stacy, one more thing – I noticed you pulled the Hebrews 13:17 card:

    Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17

    READ: “Obey me because I’m the boss and here’s the verse to prove it.” Those who are true servant leaders would NEVER draw attention to that verse because they are humble and lead by example. They do not point to their “leadership” position, they wash feet, they serve.

    You prove by your very words and example that your “ministry” is fraudulent.

  126. Teresa N.

    I hope that helped. lol Ok, I really need to study math. I hope she doesn’t post anything new. I might get tempted to comment. I am so very weak.

  127. These are the words of a “desperate to hold onto her and her husband’s power and position” person, not true leaders. Thank goodness there are only 125 likes on there so far, but I would imagine that number will go up. Sometimes those in leadership who scream the martyrdom and abuse syndrome the loudest, are the ones most desperate for power and the ones most likely to be the most abusive. Perhaps they post this kind of stuff, just to see if their following is dissipating or if they are remaining strong. When the like button gets clicked to the appropriate number, they can rest again. It must feel awful to think that your “ministry” you have worshipped for years, may be coming to a close. What then? Then it will be time to face the facts and have to answer whether you were worshipping Christ and promoting His Kingdom and His truths – or not.

  128. “I’m confused why everyone is blaming Scott Brown/Dan Horn and their church? It sounds like they did everything correctly and biblically. Of course the parents and sons need to be jailed/punished if found guilty.. but how are we blaming all this on the NCFIC and Scott Brown?”

    Creole,
    We must ask what, exactly, made this family as twisted and dysfunctional as it was. We know it is a full-quiver, homeschooling family. We know the oldest son asked permission from his father to talk about the crime he was engaged in. We know the mother did nothing when she saw her daughter being violated. We know the parents wouldn’t allow authorities to question their daughter. We know some of the sons have connections to “leaders” in the Patriarchal ideology. All of this is very consistent with a Patriarchal lifestyle. Who is teaching this ideology? That is the connection here to Scott Brown and Dan Horn. I agree that Horn handled this situation the right way. Is he now going to stop teaching the very ideology that this family was apparently following?

    Homeschooling, per se, is not the problem. There are plenty of homeschooling families who do not adopt this ideology. (Although a newbie attending a state homeschool convention may be indoctrinated without being aware of what they’re encountering.)

  129. I do not believe these are uneducated homeschoolers who were living completely excluded from reality, as the media seems to portray.

    Matthew, one of the brothers, was an NCFIC intern in 2011 when they went on their Roadtrip across America. http://scottbrownonline.com/category/articles/page/2/

    The requirements of the interns are outlined here: https://ncfic.org/uploads/about/NCFIC_-_Intern_Applicationdocx.pdf Interns must have the “the full blessing and support of their parents”, read from a pretty extensive reading list (i.e., the interns must be able to read theological texts and participate in discussions), “fully participate in the body life of Hope Baptist Church”, they must explain in writing their relationship with parents and siblings, they must write a short essay explaining the biblical doctrines of the family/church/repentance, and must have letters of recommendation including one from their pastor/elder.

    Somehow, something HUGE slipped through the watch of the NCFIC internship program. Either that, or there was an enormous rug somewhere under which to brush this pile of dirt.

    However, kudos to Dan Horn for seeing past the prior relationship that this family had with his church, and getting the authorities involved. After all, he drove the guy to the police station (from http://hamptonroads.com/2014/05/six-nc-brothers-accused-abusing-girl-over-decade) after he learned of the abuse.

  130. Creole,
    We must ask what, exactly, made this family as twisted and dysfunctional as it was. We know it is a full-quiver, homeschooling family. We know the oldest son asked permission from his father to talk about the crime he was engaged in. We know the mother did nothing when she saw her daughter being violated. We know the parents wouldn’t allow authorities to question their daughter. We know some of the sons have connections to “leaders” in the Patriarchal ideology. All of this is very consistent with a Patriarchal lifestyle. Who is teaching this ideology? That is the connection here to Scott Brown and Dan Horn. I agree that Horn handled this situation the right way. Is he now going to stop teaching the very ideology that this family was apparently following?

    No I disagree. Only 2 of the young men went to that church. We don’t know about the rest of the family and you cannot lump it all together. We don’t know where the rest of the family got their ideology. Being at that church, hopefully allowed them to see their sin and confess. When they did confess they reported it immediately. They did what was right. This is NOT the NCFIC, SB, HBC fault. The blame is solely on the two boys and their family. We need to be careful with the broad brushed accusations and judgements here.

  131. “I’m confused why everyone is blaming Scott Brown/Dan Horn and their church?”

    None of the children who have died from parents using Michael Pearl’s “child training” methods have died because Michel Pearl himself was beating them. Should we also not hold Pearl responsible for his teachings?

  132. Sally,

    Thank you for your very informative comment. This is not looking good for the Christian Patriarchy Movement. People, take screen shots, there is certainly going to be a damage control response.

  133. BREAKING NEWS: Just got word that Nathan Morales was found guilty! CJ Mahaney’s brother-in-law pastor knew about the sex abuse and admitted in court that he failed to report.

  134. @IamMyBeloveds:

    Sometimes those in leadership who scream the martyrdom and abuse syndrome the loudest, are the ones most desperate for power and the ones most likely to be the most abusive.

    On one of these blogs, someone cited a study that the most common trait of a sociopath is the ability to Play The Innocent Victim and get others to feel sorry for them. (In local Fandom, we call this “the Mutant Power of Induce Guilt”. I’ve seen it in action, including cases where it gets turned on and off like a light switch.)

  135. @JulieAnne:

    Wonder what @TGC and @T4GOnline will say now that Nathan Morales was found GUILTY and CJ’s bro-in-law pastor kept silent about sex abuse?

    “What guilty verdict? There was no guilty verdict, only PERSECUTION.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson,
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent,
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunverdict
    L L C J.”

  136. @CindyK:

    Note that the first word spoken about the matter came from a male. I know many females who have taken similar matters or even matters that were not so sensational to their patriarchal elders and were not taken seriously.

    Males and females are treated differently within these groups. Reports of abuse from women are treated very differently in the FIC and in patriarchy, and one need not look very far to see evidence of that history.

    Even strict Shari’a counts a woman’s testimony as HALF that of a man’s instead of ZERO.

  137. Some things do not seem to add up here. The ages of the boys at the time of the alleged crimes is curious. They were likely not adults. The allegations of educational neglect is suspect. The photo of the house where they used to live is described as being in a rural area surrounded by country businesses. They have a locked gate on the drive. Many rural people have gates to keep livestock from getting out. The news shows a house that has some overgrown grass. by the driveway. Big deal. I am NOT condoning any wrong-doing ! Just wary…. Some people seem to WANT to hear and believe any and all things the media spouts.

  138. “Wonder what @TGC and @T4GOnline will say now that Nathan Morales was found GUILTY and CJ’s bro-in-law pastor kept silent about sex abuse?”

    They will say CJ had nothing to do with it and was not on trial so you are in sin for suggesting he is to blame. Grant, his brother in law was thrown under the bus. Believe me, people who have been loyal in the past are always thrown under the bus. That is why it works.

  139. “Some people seem to WANT to hear and believe any and all things the media spouts.”

    Not only that but people have a tendency to believe whatever the institutional representative guru states. In this case, Horn. I think we were treated to some clever spin. (Sorry but too much past info on what they put young girls through for me to beleive a word from that group)

    These guys are scared to death of all the lawsuits coming out. Not only would bad press stop the flow of money but it does not “grow” movements. That is where Stacey is coming from, too. You can hear the fear dripping in her response to her deleted statement.

  140. In his parable, Jesus gave us, as our example, the Samaritan who came to the aid of the man on the road to Jericho who had been stripped naked, beaten and left half naked by robbers. So much of today’s institutional Christianity can be identified with the priest and Levite who ignored the half dead victim. It appears to me that Stacy McDonald, Doug Wilson and other like-minded patriarchists have gone way beyond merely ignoring their movement’s victims. It is inexcusable that they are so quick to engage in blame shifting attacks on victims. It is also inexcusable the way they attack the good Samaritans who advocate for the cause of their movement’s victims. It would be a relative compliment to identify these people with the priest and Levite who merely ignored the victim in Jesus’ parable. These people have aligned themselves with the robbers.

    Truly, we live in the age of what I am beginning to think of as the Jericho Road church. Each of us must decide. Will we be good Samaritans, coming to the aid of “Christian” religion’s victims? Or will we be like the priests and Levites who ignore, and maybe don’t even notice, the “churche’s” victims? Or will we choose to support, and even join with, the robbers who, emotionally and spiritually speaking, leave people naked, beaten and half dead–and then attack those who come to their aid?

    The Samaritans who post here stand a good chance of being cast off by supposed Christianity. On the other hand, I would view it as a privilege to be counted amongst the outcasts, inasmuch as I strongly suspect that they are much more likely to be assigned to the place of the sheep than to the place of the goats.

  141. I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but is there any chance that this is being brought out now as these men are no longer minors and probably will never have one minute of jail time? It obviously isn’t doing much for the families reputation, but will there be any justice for this child?

  142. Thank you Julie Ann. I should have clarified this morning when I posted her second comment that I understood. It was her first comment that I had no clue what she was talking about.

  143. Brenda R,

    I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but is there any chance that this is being brought out now as these men are no longer minors and probably will never have one minute of jail time?

    It is commendable that the young men went to the authorities and turned themselves in, just as it is that they were encouraged to do so. And a pastor should stand by a person through the good and the bad, so I am glad that Horn did what he did. In and of itself, that much is a beautiful testimony of doing what is right and good, even though it has devastating consequences for those who chose to incriminate themselves. That is the truly Christian thing to do.

    I have compassion for the brothers who came forward, and perhaps a judge and a DA can find some help for them, again going back to the skewed level of “normal.” Prisons have to do with punishment, not rehabilitation, so hopefully, the legal system can help figure out what is best for those involved.

    What I cannot understand is the parents’ behavior, though I know that it happens (families using denial and ignoring incest).

  144. “The first kid, it seems to be like a relief, but even when they came to turn themselves in last week, it was like, ‘We’re here.’ I don’t think they know the magnitude of what they’ve done because I don’t think they knew it was wrong,” says Sheriff Tilley, “They haven’t been taught any differently. I’m not sure when that’s going to sink in exactly what they were doing was wrong.”


    Craster’s Keep, anyone?
    (Game of Thrones reference)

  145. I am not going to discontinue the practice of calling sin what it is, sin. The parents of these children should, in my view, do jail time for encouraging and hiding their sons behavior and for not protecting their daughter. I don’t have much sympathy for the boys who did this. It is good that the truth is coming out, but there is much to do to make amends to their victim. She is the one I am most concerned about.

  146. Coming late to the discussion.

    Concerning essential oils: “Brenda R,
    It’s definitely a gimmick. Cottage industries are heavily promoted among many in the Homeschool Movement as a means of income. That’s not a bad notion if you’re selling walking sticks or handmade clothes. But to peddle snake oil as a treatment for whooping cough? This woman isn’t certified to offer any medical advice, much less concoct her own blends for serious medical conditions.”

    Stacy McDonald is a rep for Young Living, an essential oil company. I believe (but don’t have time to confirm) that it’s set up as an MLM. You sign up under someone else, and they get residual income for all your sales and personal purchases. You’re also encouraged to get as many people to sign up under you, so that you can reap the benefits.

    Of course, Young Life is “incredibly superior” to all the other essential oil companies out there, in terms of their quality standards, purity, and I don’t know what all. Or so I was told when I went to a party and was encouraged to sign up.

    If you’ve noticed a rash of “Young Living” bloggers, I think you might have noted that a lot of them were homeschool moms. A number of my friends jumped on the bandwagon, but my husband wasn’t too keen on the idea. Sweet irony.

  147. Bridget:
    “They don’t get it!! The patriarchal crowd, that is. They simply don’t understand children and child development. Children learn by what they see, and how they and those around them are treated as much, if not more than by head knowledge. When you teach from birth, first time obedience, obey your elders (everyone when you’re 4), men are leaders, women are followers, church leaders are the top leaders, always obey your parents, you are creating perfect storm for abuse to ocurr and be perpetuated. When will patriarchy understand this?!?!? Instead of growing healthy, balanced, young adults, some are growing infantile, stunted young adults who are not prepared to live in the world into which they were born.”

    Unfortunately, this is not confined to the patriarchal crowd. I grew up in a family of unbelievers with parents who were control freaks. I grew up stunted, unprepared, and decades later still have trouble making any kind of decision. (Have trouble? How about “agonize”!) I didn’t learn to think for myself, which is probably why I was ripe for the assurance and (false) hope offered by VF and their ilk. It was a formula that an insecure, indecisive, suffering-from-anxiety-and-fear-of-failure intellectually-bright-but-otherwise-stupid person like myself could find comfort in. If only following a formula worked! It would be so much easier (safer? less fraught with making the wrong choice?) to go forward with confidence if it worked as promised.

    And I seem to be living at the height of irony today. …for it was yet another wrong choice.

    I still wonder at the apparently healthy families I know who (at least said that they) followed the model and seem to have turned out competent adults.

  148. MLM – just another system of hierarchy where you use people for personal and financial gain.

    Someone tell me to take a nap. Lol. I feel grumpy.

  149. NFA: “No, sorry that is not it. I hope I did this correctly, but I think this should get you there .https://www.facebook.com/jordanmuela This is the same Jordan Muela who wrote the article How Silence Enables Abuse and was accused by Doug along with Peter Bradrick a while back.”

    JA, perhaps he has you blocked. I am not on his friends list and was able to read posts and comments on the page. My reaction to James and Stacy McDonald in particular?

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, if I overlooked something, if I missed any earlier comments or posts from them on this matter, if I’m misconstruing what either of them said.

    But what I saw, reading their comments, stood out to me in glaring neon lights. What I would expect, especially from people who put themselves forward as if there is some reason others ought to listen to them, what I would expect would be compassion *for*the*victim*, godly sorrow, anger at the sin and at those who allowed it to happen, that sort of thing…

    What I saw was defensiveness and self-justification.

    Believe me, I am not judging them or their salvation (maybe questioning their judgment?), but I seriously question their motivations, insofar as they seem more worried about defending their investment in a system, than outrage, and a determination to root out evil and “weed the garden” so to speak.

    By their fruit you shall know them.

  150. Telling the truth and knowing how badly we have been abused by these so-called leaders, can just make us grumpy sometimes.

    Yes, Young Living is what we call a “pyramid”, but I think that James McDonald wrote an article or did a Vimeo about that and addressed it and defended Stacy’s involvement in that, when it was questioned about whether it was a godly way to make a living or not. I hear that someone in her position makes about $25,000.00 a year or more. It’s good money that one can make off of everyone else’s work.

  151. Refugee — I think Jordan has dropped off for a bit. Maybe perhaps due to the McDonald comments. Also, the McDonalds do not hold to “By their fruit you shall know them”. They believe that as long as you are baptized and a member of the local church (ie Federal Vision) you are a Christian. As long as you say, “I am sorry that I have been abusing a 4 year old child (or 17 year old young woman) sexually”, they consider you repentant. Read Stacy’s comments concerning DP. They do not hold to the biblical teaching that says, “showing forth fruit unto repentance”. They also do not hold to the biblical teaching of two or more witnesses. When James had his credentials take from him, he and the others formed this new denomination, the CPC, so as to formulate their own theologies and doctrines. You should take a read through that sometime.

  152. “I don’t have much sympathy for the boys who did this.”

    Brenda R, glad not to be the only one. I actually have no sympathy for them. Are we really supposed to believe that not ONE brother had ANY kind of inkling for TEN WHOLE YEARS that rape is wrong? Yeah, right. Not buying it.

  153. Folks in this camp tend towards theonomy, no? That calls for a good stoning to death, right? Maybe if society stopped letting convicted pedophiles off with counseling and short jail terms if any (while embezzlers go to jail for 15 years), good Christian homeschoolers would realize that sex with your 4 year old sister is wrong. It will be a test to see how true to theonomy some of these leaders turn out to be when sentencing rolls around. Perhaps they’ll cut theonomy loose along with Phillips?

    Alice Miller wrote about how mandatory submission turns people into obedient slaves with no moral engagement. It destroys one’s ability to think critically and creates the Nazi Doctor. And what do you do with them?

    I’m certainly glad that I’m not Solomon, and above all, may justice be established. Solomon can figure out where mercy and if mercy should come in — and I hope that the court does that task justice.

  154. “What I saw was defensiveness and self-justification.”

    The Patriarchal house of cards is crumbling. Too many spiritually abused victims are finding each other online and comparing notes. And when this happens the money starts drying up. It is hard to keep up the “gossip” Schick when you can no longer isolate people with threats of sin sniffing.

    Add to that, their vague rebuking comments sound bizarre to those not mired in the movement. Like something out of North Korea.

    Anyone else notice Stacy barely gives the young abused girl much compassion at all. She is more interested in protecting her Patriarchal wife position. She might have to double up on the love bombing cult tactic.

  155. I think it is time for women to get more involved in church leadership. Let’s face it. the guys in charge have done a terrible job. Scripturally, I don’t think God created man to rule autonomously. I think God created men and women to balance out each other. Some men (the one’s who want to be in power) think with their egos and with*****. After 20 years of intense Bible Study from 1978-1998, I learned a lot about women’s role . I think it would be useful for any / and all of us to do a search of the Bible on Women’s role. I think we might all be surprised that God did not intend us to be spiritual underlings. To get back on point, most women hate child abuse. The men in this movement need to be held in check by us women.

    I know there are many good Godly men out there who are just as appalled and disgusted by all the recent happenings. I am not addressing you. I am married to a good guy who treats me as an equal partner. I just wish that for all our Christian brothers and sisters. Let’s just stop the child abuse. And the Woman abuse.

  156. I found this:

    Suspect confessed after hearing the gospel at Wake Forest church. “Most of the children in the family are now grown, but a younger brother remains at home, likely in Colorado, said Tilley. The victim, now 16, was placed in the custody of an older half-brother in Colorado, he added.”

    Also this:

    What do the charges mean?

    In North Carolina, the age of consent is 16 years. This means vaginal intercourse or any sexual act with a person under the age of 16 is illegal, even if the individual claims consent was given.
    Following are basic definitions of some of the charges against the defendants:

    ***********TRIGGER WARNING FOR SEXUAL CONTENT *******

    Rape of a child: Vaginal intercourse with a victim under the age of 13 years by a perpetrator at least 18 years old.

    Statutory rape: Vaginal intercourse with victim 13-15 years old by a perpetrator at least six years older than the victim.

    Sexual offense: Engaging in a sexual act (other than vaginal intercourse) with a victim under the age of 13 years by a perpetrator at least 18 years old.

    First degree sexual offense: Engaging in a sexual act (other than vaginal intercourse) with a victim under the age of 13 years by a perpetrator who is at least 12 years old and also at least four years older than the victim; or by a perpetrator who uses threat of deadly force, who inflicts serious injury or who is aided and abetted by one or more other perpetrators.

    Felony child abuse: John Jackson was charged with the non-assaultive felony child abuse. N.C. statutes classify a parent or guardian who commits or allows any sexual act with a child, or who commits willful or grossly negligent care with reckless disregard for life as committing felony child abuse.

  157. Oasis, Thank you for your stand. No matter how you are raised there has to be something in someone’s heart that says no, these things aren’t right.

  158. Lydia, I don’t believe Stacy showed any true compassion for this child at all. Her heart is too hard for that and is much too brain washed into the cult to see it.

  159. Headless Unicorn Guy said

    On one of these blogs, someone cited a study that the most common trait of a sociopath is the ability to Play The Innocent Victim and get others to feel sorry for them.

    If I’m not mistaken (it’s been a while since I read the book), that trait is mentioned in the book The Sociopath Next Door. A lot of sociopaths use pity to manipulate people and cover their tracks.

  160. @ Cindy K.:

    What is the Craster’s Keep?

    If I recall correctly, Craster has a huge harem and marries his own daughters. Thankfully he dies at some point.

    And FWIW, I know for a fact they added nudity to the show that wasn’t in the books. I like the books better.

  161. Pingback: Scott Brown Discusses: Jackson Brothers Alleged Sex Abuse, Brother Responds to Preaching, and Love Your Wives Webinar | Spiritual Sounding Board

  162. Leslie, I hope you rethink your position and come to the conclusion that mutual submission and true biblical equality is the only way. I, too, would like to sweep all men out of leadership, but that would only mean that “feminism is the true enemy of the church” and the abuses by women would become the problem.

  163. For those who are inclined to pile on with a guilt-by-association argument and consign parents whose child-rearing principles and practices they deplore to close monitoring by Child Protection Services and public school bureaucrats, another recent case provides an illuminating example to ponder. All authority is vulnerable to abuse, and none is beyond reproach. Given the power of the state, state authority is generally more vulnerable to abuse than the legitimate authority of parents. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/05/17/4916678/union-county-dss-continues-overhaul.html#.U3sqzChaYqg

  164. Another Doug comments on the failings of Doug Phillips and some of those who found his leadership appealing: http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/patriarchy-vision-forum-and-all-the-rest-of-it.html
    The conclusion of his post:
    Many years ago, I had a weekly radio column on KWSU, a local public radio station. This was a fun gig while it lasted, which was until the time that I said on the air that men were necessarily dominant. The only question before the house was whether or not that dominance was going to be constructive or destructive. This was one of my early encounters with liberal tolerance for views other than their own, and it was an educational experience.

    The point is that patriarchy is inescapable, and our only choice is between men being faithful, for blessing, and men failing, for humiliation and chastisement. The thesis is not that men are good, but rather that men are crucial. When they are crucial and selfish, a lot of bad things happen. When they are crucial and obedient, a lot of good follows.

    Nothing that has happened at Vision Forum changes this reality. Men are not automatically a blessing. They are called to be a blessing. When they refuse, or when they turn away, the effects are devastating. This was one of the things taught by Vision Forum, and it is a reality that we can see the truth of now in the shuttering of the ministry. And when we have had the truth of something so manifestly displayed for us, that is not the time to abandon it.

  165. Pingback: This is What Child Abusers Look Like in Homeschooling Communities | H . A

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