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Do Christians have a responsibility to vaccinate their children? Is this a matter of religious liberty? Should Christian leaders use their platform to influence us in this health matter?
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It seems that we have been getting barraged with religious leaders trying to convince us one way or the other on the recent vaccine issue in the news as Measles has made a comeback with a recent outbreak. I was surprised to see numerous tweets from religious leaders and wondered what you thought about this.
Below are just some of the tweets and articles, including some excerpts I have found.
And Now a Brief Word on Vaccines – by Doug Wilson
The claim I am making here is very limited. If a person has decided personal convictions about the contagious disease he is carrying, the society in which he lives has an equal right to have decided and contrary convictions about that same contagious disease he has. And if there is an outbreak of such a disease, and the government quarantines everyone who is not vaccinated, requiring them to stay at home, the name for this is prudence, not tyranny.
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3 reasons Christians should vaccinate with confidence by Justin Smith of ERLC (The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission)
In the midst of all the confusion about vaccines, I believe that Christians don’t have to be the ones who are confused. We can use the gift of vaccines with confidence knowing that, ultimately, our lives and our health are in the hands of our Father.
Cripplegate is blog with 4 contributors who seem to have connections with John MacArthur’s seminary/church. This article was posted on Cripplegate: Anti-vaxxers and epistemological narcissism
Take note at how they use scripture to justify vaccinating:
- Vaccines are a form of common grace that have dramatically changed the world for the better (Gen 3:18
; Ps 145:9-16; Matt 5:44-45; Acts 14:16-17). Participating in the blessings of common grace in a post-Babel society means that we bond together as nations, and we use common grace to make quality of life better (Gen 9:6, 2 Kings 12:2, Luke 6:33). We work, we marry, and we protect each other. A basic way to do that is to be vaccinated against diseases that plague the cultures that don’t vaccinate.
- Thus, being vaccinated is a form of loving your neighbor (Lev 19:18; Matt 5:43,Rom 13:8-10, Jas 2:8). Knowing that some are too little, too young, or too weak to be vaccinated, we protect the weak by being vaccinated.
The last paragraph admits this is gray area which is bizarre because if it truly is a gray area, can you really use scripture to 100% back up your stance?
I recognize that this is a Christian gray-area, and it goes beyond what is written to say that a person is sinning by being an anti-vaxxer. But it does not go beyond what is written to appeal to believer’s discernment: don’t undo one of society’s crowning scientific advancements because of epistemological narcissism.
Rev. Paul Brandeis Raushenbush, Executive Religion Editor for the Huffington Post posted an article and a podcast at Huffington post. (The podcast will start immediately as soon as you open the page, but you can turn it off and read the article: Love Thy Neighbor: Vaccinate (All Together Podcast). Dr. Claire McCarthy, a pediatrician at Boston Children’s hospital, Dr. Robert Klitzman, professor and Director of the Bioethics Program at Columbia School of Public Health, and Sally Steenland, Director of the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative at the Center for American Progress, were on the podcast and discussed why this is not a religious liberty issue. Paul concludes:
Jesus commands to love our neighbor as ourselves. This gets to the heart of the vaccination issue. It’s not just about loving your own family. It is also about caring for the well-being of your neighbors and your community. Everyone should vaccinate their children as an act of love.
In this case, we have a reverend with a highly visible position in public media using his platform to push his agenda. Is this okay?
Pat Robertson Says He’s Against Vaccination Mandates:
I’m sure that there’s some serious consequences to measles, and perhaps vaccinations is the answer, but I don’t think any parent should be forced by the government to vaccinate.
https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/562272594419015681
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If I looked longer, I’m sure I could find even more articles from religious leaders. I have some questions:
Is it a religious leader’s responsibility to inform private citizens about their views on immunizations?
At what point do religious leaders cross the line when it comes to health concerns and using their position of authority/celebrity-ism to influence?
How much credence do we give to religious leaders on issues of health?
As you can see above, some say this is a gray area or a religious liberty area, where others say it is not. Do you think we can discuss this topic, specifically the bolded questions without getting personal and debating the pros/cons of vaccines? Please exercise caution when commenting. I specifically would like to keep it to the subject of Christian leaders pushing their health agendas using their public platforms.
photo credit: Flu Vaccination Grippe via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
BB, That was too funny. I don’t think ODD can be accurately diagnosed online. You’d be surprised how many people go to church while they are sick because they think hell fire and brimstone will fall on them if they don’t. So for them an RN may be required. I missed church last company because there was too much ice and I am afraid of falling and therefore with Osteoporosis would likely break.
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I also think that elders back then knew other Christians like family. These were tight knit small groups that took care of each other. How in the world does one pastor and a group of elders have the time or resources to adequately do this? I have been to many churches and never knew the pastor or elders intimately (like family). They did not know me from Adam, but sure acted like they did.
All ya’ get is ya’ better be inoculated or we will have to question your loveeee for Jesus!
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@BrendaR,
No, it does not make you a bully. My comment about pastors is simply from being on the other side of the street. I have no problem with disagreeing with and even making that known to pastors. Many I know have an open mind and are gracious. Others are not. My only point is that if everyone went to their pastor with some of the same attitudes and opinions shared here, that poor man (or woman) would feel so torn apart that it is actually hard for him to do his job. What I was trying to say is that sometimes we need to really look at whether what we want to disagree about is really all that important to the church that we have to inundate the pastor about it.
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At least in Texas, ODD is not taken seriously in the public schools as a diagnosis. As my wife, a PhD in Ed Psych says, it is pretty much clinical term for a bratty kid who does not want to obey….
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trust4himonly suggests a GREAT topic for whoever wants to pick it up, IMO. If indeed 1st century pastors knew their congregations more intimately than is common today, why? Is it something we ought to recover? How can we recover it if it is something we ought to recover?
I won’t bring it up here again unless there’s a lot to add–I’m going to TRY to avoid threadjacking–but for the larger community, there might be a LOT to gain in terms of “how do we prevent abusive situations from occurring in the first place?” In my experience, the answer to that question has a lot to do with whether pastors interact with parishioners like a shepherd with sheep, or whether it’s more like a corporate manager with subordinates.
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At least in Texas, ODD is not taken seriously in the public schools as a diagnosis. As my wife, a PhD in Ed Psych says, it is pretty much clinical term for a bratty kid who does not want to obey….
And you thought ODD couldn’t be accurately diagnosed over the Internet, Brenda? :^)
Sorry, just couldn’t resist, and thank you, Wendell.
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Re; The RNs speaking to our congregation, the people are not dullards, it just helped to hear from them because most of the folks are really devoted, and would come even if they were a “little” sick.
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A few months back we had a good talk from a young couple in our church who are RNs. Mostly the wife spoke, addressing the issue of infection control. She started out by saying she was glad that the members of the church were devoted to coming, but, if you have a fever, etc. it is better to stay home and not spread the illness. It was good to hear from people with medical knowledge which was applicable to a group setting (both work in our local hospital). I have noticed folks being more careful about sneezing, not coming to church with a fever and son.
This is a great idea!
If these boy pastors are really serious about using their pulpits to address health issues, what if they would yield their pulpit some Sunday morning to an RN or doctor — and how about a woman, if she happens to be the most qualified? — to preach/teach on the issue of vaccines? And while we’re at it, just to make sure this is not about power, what if she is not serving in some leadership capacity at the church, but is preaching/teaching solely because of the authority of her medical expertise? And for that matter, not under anybody’s “covering” except Christ’s?
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Bridget,
You said:
“Romans 14 is about more than eating meat and is not about a lack of faith, but about how we are to interact with one another.”
My response:
I totally emphatically disagree. It is about those who REFUSE to eat the meat, all due to the fact of lack of faith that states that they can indeed eat the meat. And we who knows that we can eat the meat are NOT TO EAT THE MEAT in front of those who don’t think that we can eat the meat, all because the one who thinks that has a lack of faith…and the bottom line of that? We are not to trip the IMMATURE Christians.
That is what the whole “eat the meat” is all about.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
You had said:
“Ed, completely obeying elders can get abused wives harmed when they are told to remain with their husbands and submit. Come on, you’re at a spiritual abuse blog.”
My response:
I know where I am in regards to a spiritual abuse blog. And I know what I am saying in regards to elders.
You and others here have a total mistrust issue going on. You know me well enough that I condemn DOCTRINES such as wives SUBMITTING in the sense of SLAVERY.
I am NOT FROM ANY OF THOSE kinds of church’s that even consider that mindset.
In a NORMAL church setting, THAT NEVER HAPPENS. I go to a NORMAL church, not a dysfunctional one based on our infamous C word doctrines.
Sometimes, it’s time to move from victim to VICTORY, and find out what REAL NORMAL church’s are all about outside of the abusive doctrines.
There are tons of NON-C church’s out there. Throw a dart at the yellow pages, and pick one.
I know what an elder is for. I know what a pastor is for. You and others here do not trust anyone in that position. I understand that. But it seems that no one wishes to move on into the arena of NORMAL CHRISTIANITY. If people did, then they can trust the people in positions that works, and see the trust that others have.
The abuses that happen are NOT NORMAL Christianity. I go to TWO church’s on Sundays. Both are NON-DENOMINATIONS and neither hold any C doctrines, and those in leadership positions are DOERS not tellers. The first church that I go to has 2 services on Sunday morning, and he is the most caring and compassionate preacher that I have ever seen. The second church has a ministry that helps those who are addicts. I’m sure that there is no C person that would be comfortable there, because there are people there that have massive tattoos, nose rings, and smokes cigarettes on the break. But those people are the most genuine Christians that you would ever want to meet. They really love Jesus, and many are coming to the knowledge of Jesus for the first time. Our pastor there has such wonderful childlike patience with these people. It’s wonderful to see NORMAL church at work.
Ed
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Oh, and one more thing, Julie Anne,
We have remarried divorced people at our church. As a matter of fact, my brother-in-law is very active in the church, and he just got engaged, to his 3rd wife.
In some factions of Christianity, he’s going to hell. Not at our church. NORMAL Christianity is not abusive.
Ed
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Ed asks “Where is the respect that preachers once had on discussing social issues from the pulpit?”
I answer … It was justifiably flushed down the toilets when “preachers” such as Fred Phelps at Westbury Baptist Church abused their position of authority to focus on social issues rather than understanding that the Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the sport, and of the joints and the marrow, and is a critic of thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb. 4:12). I strongly feel that pastors should teach and allow the Word to instruct the flock in righteousness.
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We might do well to define “normal” Christianity. Given that IFBs and Calvinists differ on some pretty important doctrines, including all five “petals” of the tulip, I would submit that you’re going to have trouble defining “abnormal” in terms of specific doctrines. You’ll also find some pretty nasty authoritarians among theological liberals and the like.
Now if you define it in terms of the authority relationships, specifically whether the pastor must recognize a higher authority in the Scriptures, then you’re probably getting closer to the truth. But that said, we will find people who think they’re honoring Scripture, but in practice honor their own rules and power. Can I say it’s messy? Yup.
But I’m off topic, and thus I must invite our gracious hostess to whip me 39 times with a wet noodle or something. I earned it, so I apologize. Blessings to all.
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Ed,
You don’t get to define “normal” Christianity for everyone else, any more than I do. And certainly not for those who have been abused in church settings. What you describe at the churches you attend sounds wonderful, but for all you know there are some here who aren’t ready for that, and might never be. The scars that result from abusive behaviour can be deep and overwhelming, and can even last a lifetime. Those scars can keep a survivor from feeling at ease in any church setting, no matter how loving or gracious it is. Suffering from trauma is not a sign of weakness or immaturity. It’s a sign of being wounded, and nothing more.
My personal preference is to attend a local church, but I fail to see how that’s required of every Christian in every situation. As for obeying elders and pastors: I will always do my best to listen to those who are older than me, and who’ve learned more on a given topic than I have. But to unquestioningly obey someone just because he’s older than me and has a title? No; not if I think that he’s wrong. I will not surrender my right and responsibility to think for myself, not to any man or woman.
And purely on a stylistic note, Ed, I’ve been meaning to tell you this for some time (and I apologize if someone else has already brought it up). I would be nice if you could avoid typing in all capitals. I understand that you intend it for emphasis, but it gives the impression that you’re shouting. It’s more time-consuming but also more acceptable to use HTML tags, to make italics and boldface. You might find this site helpful: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/
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Ed,
You can be as emphatic as you wish. It matters not to me. There is much more in that chapter than the issue of eating meat offered to idols. In fact, what it teaches can be applied to other areas and how we treat each other in the face of differences of practice . . . vaccines included. I would not expect someone to go against their conscience. But that is me.
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Regarding valid reasons not to join a church, I know two pastors–dear friends who love the Lord and His Word–who found they could not in good conscience attend churches where they were based. One found only churches preaching segregation, the other found only disfunctional churches, and that while he was in seminary. So it does happen.
I would hope it would be rare, per Hebrews 10:24-5, but if indeed too many pastors are NPD and people don’t catch on, that expectation of mine could easily be dashed. I could see this especially in small towns where there are not a lot of alternatives. Or rather I’ve experienced it. So finding a “normal” church–even defining the term as “church without NPD pastor”, a really low bar–can be as difficult as finding the proverbial “good five cent cigar.”
And trying to come on topic and avoid another well-earned forty minus one, it strikes me that a pastor’s attitude towards vaccination (diet, etc..) might be indicative of his approach in general. I don’t think he must go to the extent of Barnabas’ recommendation, but if he’s willing to point to authorities outside himself and not in his “camp”, that is a good sign. Really, a good elder/pastor will point out that his authority lies not in his position, but in his adherence to Scripture. His position is simply telling him how he ought to exercise the authority derived from Scripture.
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Bike Bubba …. 39 lashes with a wet noodle is shading it a little gray.
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Steve, I figure I’ve got that before our gracious hostess goes to a dry noodle and the replica flagellum.
Seriously, I’d rephrase your characterization of Westboro “Baptist”; they did not go wrong in addressing social issues per se, but went very wrong when they did so without putting it in the context of the Gospel, Jesus Christ died to save sinners, of whom I am the worst.
And if we address vaccination in the same way–without bringing it in line with the Gospel, we could make the same mistake. Might not get the bad press Phelps gets, but it’s the same basic thing. And it illustrates a soapbox I climb on from time to time; when you walk away from the Gospel, you get law every time, no matter which way you go. It’s like taking a step away from a mountain peak; you are guaranteed that you will go down.
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Wow, what back-lash here. Yes, Bridget, I know what I am talking about. I stand by what I said. The issue was moving away from the LAW OF MOSES that states that eating meat offered to idols is a huge sin, to the law of Christ that states that Jesus made all things clean, so feel free to eat the meat. But some have DOUBTS. Those who have doubt, to them, it is a sin to eat the meat. Anything not of faith is a sin. That sentence ends chapter 14. The beginning of Chapter 14 states:
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
It’s all about faith vs. weak faith, and that we are not to trip our brother who has weak faith. I stand by that. Meat was not the only subject, but Holidays are also a subject in that chapter, too…all of it in regards to faith vs. weak faith.
The vaccine issue, to me, is a matter of “love thy neighbor”, which states that we are to be concerned with OTHER PEOPLE’S HEALTH before our own health, which means that to prevent other people from getting a disease, get the vaccine yourself.
Serving, I know what normal is because I know the Bible very well, and I know the character of Jesus, and I know the freedom that Jesus gives and I know the law of Christ, and I know Love Thy Neighbor, and I know what is normal based on those things, for the Bible states that you KNOW them by their fruits, and in Hosea, it states that MY people are DESTROYED for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.
How do we get knowledge? What are the fruits? So, I think that I have enough knowledge to know what is normal, and what isn’t. Now, in regards to people who have scars, is it GOOD that they remain in the scars, remain in the anger, remain in the hurt? Or, is there a process to healing? If there is, what is that process?
If we get to know the WORD of God, then we know what is ERROR and what is correct. I know that takes time…lots of time. It interrupts NORMAL everyday life to learn, to get knowledge. You don’t need a doctorate degree in some college, but you do need to SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND, STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED, be a Berean, ask the tough questions that you are willing to take the time to research the answers. THEN compare what you learn with JUST YOU and God, share with others, and learn their opinions, from what they learned…on their own, because IRON SHARPENS IRON. God is PLEASED when we discuss him. Where ever 2 or more are there he is in the midst of us. We have continual fellowship with the creator that calls us FRIENDS, not servants. This is all just the beginning that I feel comfortable in stating that I know normal vs. abusive. But I will slightly contradict my self for just a moment by stating that those who know NOTHING are smarter than those who know a lot. That is a statement that states:
1 Cor 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Steve I, I agree with you, and I am just waiting for someone to acknowledge that there is a difference between abusive and normal. But what I am seeing is that EVERYONE in the pulpit as well as elders are NOT TO BE TRUSTED no matter what. Or, that NO ONE can make a determination what normal is. But that isn’t true. Not at all.
Ed
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Serving,
In regards to the caps, I’m not one that adheres to those kinds of etiquette, because before the internet ever existed, caps were used for emphasis, and I am still OLD SCHOOL. So, for those who see caps from me, it is NOT shouting!! LOL.
I will try, to conform. But let not your heart be troubled, I am not shouting.
Ed
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“Wow, what back-lash here. Yes, Bridget, I know what I am talking about. I stand by what I said.”
It’s not backlash.
I never said you didn’t know what you were talking about.
I stand by what I said as well.
Not all children are able to get vaccines due to possible health issues specific to them. You make it sound like everyone should vaccinate their children regardless of it being detrimental to their children. That is the bit that is being left out. A pastor should not dictate from the pulpit as it is not a black/white situation for everyone. I also don’t believe that parents who don’t get a child vaccinated due to health concerns are “not loving their neighbor.”
Disclaimer — I have had all of my children vaccinated. I was at risk during my first pregnancy because I thought I had measles but found out otherwise from blood tests. My Dr. advised me to not travel abroad and to stay away from anyone with rashes and/or feavers until the baby comes. I was vaccinated before I left the hospital after giving birth.
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Bridget,
You said:
“You make it sound like everyone should vaccinate their children regardless of it being detrimental to their children. That is the bit that is being left out. A pastor should not dictate from the pulpit as it is not a black/white situation for everyone. I also don’t believe that parents who don’t get a child vaccinated due to health concerns are “not loving their neighbor.” ”
My response:
I think that it is the responsibility of the preacher to preach about vaccines, regardless of the parent’s opinions on the matter. Saving lives is the real issue here, not vaccines. But what saves lives? Vaccines.
And, my personal opinion is that whenever you put other peoples lives in danger, that you are not loving your neighbor.
And, yes, bottom line, you don’t have to get vaccinated. It is your choice. But you know what? When I was a kid, we didn’t have a choice. And that is my point. Not having a choice about the matter is not a big deal. So why is it a big deal now? That is the question that no one seems to be able to answer.
1969, no problem. 2014, resistance. Why? Because you don’t trust the preacher? Because you don’t trust the government? Because you don’t trust republicans? There is someone that you don’t trust, right?
Is it really a health issue, or is it a trust issue? Me, I think it is black and white. Why? I got vaccines a few times in my life, and none of it was a choice, and I am still alive to talk about it.
Preachers who preach a “saving life” sermon is not preaching something evil. They are preaching the word of God. Yes, in the end, it is your choice, but I think that the pastor/preacher has a responsibility to preach it, and that you have the responsibility to accept the consequences if you get the disease when you were advised to get the vaccination.
Ed
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Serving, thank you for saying what I’ve been dying to say all day (too much school stuff going on).
That’s one thing I’ve observed about your comments, Ed – you have common sense on your side, you have a good barometer of NQR (do you remember that in the Philippines – Not Quite Right?). You haven’t experienced abuse. When I post these articles, I am always thinking of those who have suffered abuse in church. There are many who will obey their leaders and that is what got/gets them in trouble. I do not agree that we need to obey our leaders in church. We listen to them, we consider and reflect on their suggestions, but obey? No, I don’t think so. I’m not sure that the “obey” word that we read in Hebrews 13:17 is an accurate interpretation.
As far as Serving’s suggestion about not using caps – yes, I agree. Here’s another site: http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/WD/wds2p4.html Think how fancy schmancy you can be on the internet, Ed. You can teach an old dog new tricks. Look at me! lol
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Ed, are you skimming the posts? I’ve seen the answer several times. You are assuming that vaccines are safe for all. They are not.
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Ed, once again, you are making what you see as normal as everyone’s normal. Not everyone has positive experiences with vaccines. Not everyone has positive experiences with pastors. Vaccines are gray area. So a pastor who doesn’t preach about vaccines isn’t truly loving people? Is that what you’re saying?
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Ed –
There are a lot of things that were once considered good and unquestionable that have now been found to be harmful to man, animals, the earth. Even since 1969, many things have changed for the better . . . for example, the way we use DDT, lead in paint, mercury in tooth fillings to name just a few. In my opinion, it is good to question things when they seem amiss.
I wouldn’t be loving my child (who is also my neighbor) if I gave them a vaccine that could be harmful to them — right? Are you saying that such a child should be sacrificed for the greater good?
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Statistically, vaccines may be problematic for a small percentage of people in the population. On the other hand, for a huge percentage of people, children, and infants, there is a high percentage of protection from life-threatening diseases.
Statistically, people who are at risk, who may not be in a position to be immunized, or not be able to make the choice for themselves, the fact that the majority of the population have been vaccinated creates a greater area of protection for these vulnerable individuals, that would not be there without the action of the majority.
Statistically, there is no ‘gray area’ when it comes to the societal benefits of immunization by the majority of folks in any geographic area.
What seems to be the concern is if ‘controlling clergy’ encourage people to get vaccinated. If bad clergy promote a good thing–does that make the ‘good’ thing a ‘bad’ thing?? Or is it still a good thing??
If people do not grasp that their church atmosphere is toxic and controlling yet they choose to be members, then there is not much that those concerned can say anyway. If congregants who are in harmful church settings are encouraged, told, or commanded to be immunized, is this a good thing or a bad thing? So back to the question: If these congregants are told/commanded to get immunized and they do so–is that not a good thing for them, their families, their neighborhoods, and society?
The problem comes when good or bad clergy suggest or command congregants NOT to get immunized–for whatever reason: fear, fear of the gov’t, lack of knowledge, personal independence as citizens, complacency, and/or fill in the blank, then that is not in the best interests of anyone since that misinformation creates a risk that is just too great.
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The key to me is how it is presented. Are facts presented so people can choose freely (without coercion or manipulation)? When choice is removed, regardless if it’s proven as something beneficial or not (whatever the “it” is, not only this topic), that is misuse of authority, IMO.
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Ed,
I am glad that you have found those wonderful ministries and totally agree with going from Victim to Victory In both spiritual and personal life. If I get to the point that I no longer feel right at the church I attend, I will continue on until I do. Right at this point I feel I am where I am suppose to be and learning much.
The Victory position is why I believe I was lead to blogs like this one. Christians were not meant to be lone rangers. We are meant to be a community. Just as there may not have been buildings in first century AD there was no internet either. We need each other.
Celeb pastors need to be called out. Julie Anne, you do a fine job of this and I pray that those that have been hurt by church leadership or so-called abusive Christians will find community where they feel safe if they have not yet found that. No church is perfect, but you can find one that is close and living for Christ.
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bb,
The elder at my church that I love the most is one who when introduced as an elder says, “that just means that I’m old”. He is very wise, gentle and loving. The pastor recommends at pot lucks that people start with desert. I suppose that could be perceived as leading the sheep down a wrong path.
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by the way after doing some research on the topic of vaccines (recently that have all of a sudden opened into a fire storm) it is interesting that in 2012 and now this past Oct. a lawsuit concerning Merck has surfaced.
http://www.biospace.com/news/merck-co-s-fake-mmr-measles-trial-data-buried-even/362286
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html
This lawsuit is about the MMR not being effective and Merck is being sued for fraudulent behavior. This is fishy to me and I feel we are yet again duped by the media to start blaming other groups of people to divert our attention away from them (Merck) and focus on the 1-2% that don’t vaccinate. If 90% + people vaccinate why would anyone worry about getting measles? – well maybe because the MMR today is not working quite well (plus the CDC claimed this year that flu shots were not as effective this year either). I am not trying to say this is the absolute story but it is worth to ask questions and not shift blame all at once without looking at the other side. Most people are NOT anti-vacciners; the 1% + are those who just want to know what is in it and whether or not it is effective or dangerous. Is that wrong for people to ask these questions? But yet herd mentality is in full swing and everyone is ready to pounce on the weakest group.
The media knows how to push the buttons (they did this with Ferguson, gun issues, immigration, etc.) This all to deflect attention away from their own (the government or whoever is elite) culpability and wrongdoing. It is so easy in this country to get overworked and “jump to conclusions” (myself included) about issues but I believe in the underdog and the right to ask questions.
That 1-2% will NEVER be the norm guys; there will always be vaccination. All I want to know is is it safe and/or effective; it is important that we (pastors included) do not schelch freedom by demonizing an extremely small number who have concerns. That is wrong. I feel that right now we need to ask Merck what is going on?
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I was wrong about the October time frame; it surfaced again around this past summer or fall
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What next? Gospel vaccinations? Or how about “Anti Gospel vaccinations” whichever their bent? .
Sure pastors can speak about anything. My question is why people would take their advice on such a matter?
as we have left the evangelical circus, we have visited some more “liberal” churches and I was dismayed to find they also tell us what to think and do concerning social issues. It is everywhere…..why is that? Why do people put up with it?
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I agree Lydia. It is everywhere- left or right. Is the church the Body of Christ or a one man show? Getting back to Paul with the meat issue in scripture- He did not even want to make it an issue. He appealed to the individuals conscience, love for others and their relationship with the Holy Spirit, the Father and Christ.
Paul was out for only one thing and that was preach the good news, not rally around social issues.
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I plead with people to see the big picture. We are a reactionary country and we also want results immediately. So it easy to jump on the “bandwagon” and instantaneously side with an issue. It is good to step back and see whether or not the other side is valid. It is easier to pick on the weaker side because the stronger side is just too strong to go after (take the government or any big entity). We have seen this with the big strong arm pastors deflecting attention away from themselves to make the weaker side look loony or crazy. This is no different with our government or corporate cronyism. The bigger side has the resources and the money. I say investigate and it is interesting to find that there are roaches in every corner.
Thank you Julie Anne for bringing these things up. I also feel that pastors all of the sudden bringing this ONE little issue amidst thousand of other issues is a little suspect.
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Julie Anne,
You had said:
“I do not agree that we need to obey our leaders in church. We listen to them, we consider and reflect on their suggestions, but obey? No, I don’t think so. I’m not sure that the “obey” word that we read in Hebrews 13:17 is an accurate interpretation.”
What is the interpretation? What does it mean to “listen to them”? What really is the role of an “elder”? Why do we have elders?
In the Amazon world, the naked people with bones in their noses, spears in their hands, they have elders. We learn from National Geographic that their elders are held in such high esteem that people obey their “suggestions”, because they know what they are talking about. They don’t “weigh the options”.
My whole point is that yes, church “elders” and church “preachers” in your world and the world of your commenters have abused their roles. But that does not negate out the proper role that they were supposed to have, and the proper role that people are to respond to their advice, the way that God intended.
So, when I say the word “obey”, I am taking it from the Bible as not a suggestion, but as it states.
Now, if you can find a definition to “obey” that is “I don’t have to obey”, then please show me how you came to that conclusion.
The elder is supposed to be one who has “been there, done that”, and he is supposed to care for you so that you don’t go down the same road that he has, or, if you do go down that road that he does, he is compassionate enough to guide you through it. It is in that sense that you are to obey the elder. So the “obey” that I present is not a hard line “obey” of someone that presents it as a “because I said so”.
Do you see the difference in the two different types of “obey” that I presented here?
The word “obey” is because the elder cares and has compassion, etc. And again, that is what normal is. That is what God intended. And elder is to guide, he is supposed to be a mentor, not a task master. Remember the word “mentor”. That is what it is all about. People really do “obey” mentors, even outside of religion/church.
Ed
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Brenda,
You said:
“We need each other.”
I like how you presented that. That is so true.
Ed
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Bridget,
A good friend of mine is a pest control guy, and we were just talking about DDT a few days ago, in that DDT was the only reliable chemical that would kill bed bugs. Now that is off the market, he won’t even accept job orders for bed bugs. He used to have quite a few cheap motels that he serviced…but no more.
Ed
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“Thank you Julie Anne for bringing these things up. I also feel that pastors all of the sudden bringing this ONE little issue amidst thousand of other issues is a little suspect.”
I couldn’t agree more. Whenever I see a bandwagon effect on something like this I become a bit leary. Look at what has happened with antibiotics over the years. Most kids in my neck of the woods were being dosed with antibiotics constantly for ear infections. I am big on not taking antibiotics unless totally necessary. I ended up having my kids ears aligned by a chiropractor and the ear infections stopped.No none was more surprised than me! Of course, lots of doctors making money off ear tubes.
I am no medical person but it makes sense to me that vaccines, over time, can lose effectiveness because of different strains of disease. So I do have to wonder if that is part of the problem. What raised my suspicion even more is how this issue has taken over certain parts of twitter. Much like Ferguson did. In a tyrannical form….only ignorant rubes don’t go along with our views…sort of thing.
The other thing that raised my suspicion is that fact it is very hard to put a child in any school, public or private, that has not been immunized. I am sure it can be done but only with a huge hassle. I do know of one such case and the private school found other grounds to not admit the child so as not to have to go down that road.
It is an issue I would rather look at more deeply than just jump on a bandwagon. The LAST place I would look for wisdom on this issue is a pastor!
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Lydia: Apropos of liberal churches, I once attended an ELCA service while in college because I had no car and could not get to the LCMS church. During prayers and petitions, they prayed for the Sandinistas. I thought to myself “What about our Lutheran brothers and sisters in DDR, Latvia and Estonia? Plenty of lefty pulpits are used for political purposes.
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“I do not agree that we need to obey our leaders in church. We listen to them, we consider and reflect on their suggestions, but obey? No, I don’t think so. I’m not sure that the “obey” word that we read in Hebrews 13:17 is an accurate interpretation.”
I just had this discussion with a pastor on another blog who was trotting out Hebrews 13:17 for the peasants. I did a serious word study on it years back and realized the church state translators needed for it to convey “obey”. Think King James and his need to prove his power and Protestant bonafides.
But the larger issue is context. The Hebrew “hearers” of this letter knew who the author was referring to as “leaders” within that context. There is an anonymous quality about the book of Hebrews for good reason. Persecution was heating up.
It is not a blanket command or else anyone who joined an SGM church would have to obey CJ according to that verse. And they did because they did not understand context. And it was CJ’s favorite verse to trot out.. Whenever some leader trots out that verse be leary. Jesus has some words that totally negate it being used in an “obedience” to men mode. A “real” elder would never resort to that because they would “model” eldering as in being fed to the lions first, not insisting on being obeyed.
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Modded? What did i do?
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“A good friend of mine is a pest control guy, and we were just talking about DDT a few days ago, in that DDT was the only reliable chemical that would kill bed bugs. Now that is off the market, he won’t even accept job orders for bed bugs. He used to have quite a few cheap motels that he serviced…but no more.”
This is becoming a huge problem in public schools and I know of one church camp that had to close over it. We are going to have to rethink this one.It is becoming a huge problem.
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“But that does not negate out the proper role that they were supposed to have, and the proper role that people are to respond to their advice, the way that God intended.”
I hope this is on topic because I see this thinking as part of the problem why people would listen to a pastor about vaccines.
For one thing, we do not see elders promoted as a function within all churches. Only a few in the NT were told to apppoint them. Most of the churches operated without that mentioned as a necessary function. When we do see it mentioned it is within a specific context and even then “appoint” has “hand stretching” as one of the definitions so it could have meant vote which changes the view a bit.
Saying that we are to respond to their advice is not that different from saying we should obey them. Dangerous stuff. I have known many horrible elders. Personally.
While I am not a big fan of Viola, he did a great talk on this going through the historical facts that are in the NT concerning this issue about elders/pastors called “Straight Talk to Pastors”. It is worth a read.
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“To all of you here who either are or (like me) have been in the pastorate, can you relate to how a pastor’s job is almost impossible? ”
Yes. And I think that is because it was made into a “job” or “career- vocation” when it was never intended to be that. I think of pastoring as a verb not a noun. And I have met some little old ladies who have done a great job of “pastoring” others but were not paid for it. They received nothing but joy or grief for their efforts..
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You did nothing, Keith – it was a weird Word Press quirk.
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Ed,
Thanks for your replies. A few last thoughts for you before I turn in:
First, I didn’t mean to dispute what you said a “normal” church would look like — I’m sorry that I wasn’t clearer. What I took issue with was your apparent claim that all Christians need to participate in a local congregation, and that as long as that church is “normal” and healthy, any Christian should be able to attend it.
I agree that as Christians, we need community and fellowship with each other. But I don’t accept the idea that it must take the form of a centralized building, and a pastor and elders and worship team. In fact, I get the feeling that a lot of the readers and commenters here think of this blog as the kind of community that they need right now.
“Remain in the scars”? What does that even mean?
The problem that traumatized people have isn’t that they’re “remaining in their scars”. It’s that the scars are remaining in them. Many of them don’t choose to feel angry or scared for so long — the wounds of the past just refuse to go away. And yes, they need as much healing as they can get, but it happens at its own pace. For some people, I wouldn’t be surprised if recovery takes the rest of their lives.
It’s not that that no one in the pulpit can be trusted, Ed. But I don’t think that their opinions on every matter should be regarded as gospel truth.
And please understand, people who have been traumatized by abusive pastors in the past will likely have difficulty trusting any pastors, even good ones in healthy churches. That’s simply the nature of trauma. Some commenters here have confessed that even reading the Bible on their own is, or has been, triggering. If a Christian experiences panic attacks simply from trying to enter a church building, it’s asking too much for them to obey the elders there. They need to get better first. Until they do, they shouldn’t be despised. We need to try to understand what they’re going through.
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Your comment was beautiful, Serving. So beautifully said.
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It would be interesting to define what is a normal and healthy church. It is strange how definitions can change over time. There are many today who think Calvin’s Geneva church was healthy and normal. Some think Saddleback is normal and healthy. Might be an interesting topic.
And I do think some more “lone ranger” Christians might be just the ticket that is needed to change things. I am not so sure people realize how much institutionalized thinking permeates them over time. A personal abiding in and growing in Christ is done alone. We meet to encourage and help one another in addition to praising God. We can do that without institutions. Probably better. We need less people who are seeking followers for themselves or think their sermon is the most important event of the week or worried about the budgets.
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First of all, a compliment to this forum; I realized this morning that my comment last night regarding Westboro “Baptist” could be construed as defending them, and nobody is raking me over the coals today. Thank you guys for interpreting my comments in the spirit I meant them. I do appreciate it.
Now to make things very clear in case I confused someone, I’m not defending them. While I do believe the Bible speaks against homosexuality and all kinds of sexual sin, I even more emphatically believe that Christ died for sinners and showed His Love for them on the Cross and by sending the Counselor/Holy Spirit. So to go around claiming God hates them is to deny the Gospel.
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Serving,
Thanks for your comment. Also note that I showed that when 2 or more are gathered in his name, that he is right there amongst us, so to me, that is also church. Fellowship is really supposed to be the purpose of church, from what I see in the Bible. But it is also for learning, too.
I kid around a lot on other Yahoo blogs discussing religion, and when people state that they don’t like organized religion, I will agree with the following: I don’t like organ-ized religions either. It should be guitar-ized instead. Organs were, oh so yesterday.
In reality, I really don’t like the militant style organized religion, but fellowship has certain rules that Paul lays out in 1 Cor 12, ending with that God is not a God of disorder. The preacher is supposed to feed us the word of God. But you know, we have that word of God in written format. We can get fed by ourselves, if we take the time to read and study on our own. And in that sense, we are all preachers. Gathering together, aka fellowship, is what it really is all about, helping each other in our own personal struggles, which can be summed up with Brenda’s words, “we need each other”.
Ed
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Lydia,
I’m not sure when the word “elder” came into play, but that is probably my fault, but I do know it had context somewhere in regards to the main topic of preachers preaching vaccines. There are a lot of comments, so I can’t remember when/where I did that.
Ed
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Lydia,
I think that the only way that anyone can measure normal vs. abusive is to first know the bible as an individual, not by a preacher telling you what it is. I truly wish that people would study a book that they already have. That is our basis. In my navy world of payroll, we could not pay anyone anything without a “supporting document” to back it up. The Personnel Office had to first produce a document, then present it to my office, Disbursing, then we could pay the sailor the monies due. Supporting document being the key words, as our basis.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
To add to my last to you, we all know, or should know, that we are not to obey anyone that we don’t respect. That being said, elders are supposed to be appointed based on the respect that they already have, and we all know that respect is indeed earned over time. So when they have the job of elder, they have already earned respect. But, to someone that has been abused, those elders need to show that they can be trusted. It’s a defense mechanism from the abused, and that is expected. The elder should already be aware of that, and is able to have compassion in that area as well, to the abused.
But, that is not so in abusive church’s. That is not so in the Mormon church, either. I’ve seen elders at my door that look as tho they are just barely out of puberty. What do they know about life? They haven’t lived it yet.
Ed
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Lydia and Serving Kids…… you guys speak my language on the topic of elder and pastor; and I said before earlier there are a laundry list of extra-biblical, non-biblical and amoral functions and practices of the institutional church that are no where to be found in Scripture. We could look at tithing for one- which was a OT practice due to one thing: making sure the Levitical priests were taken care of. Other things that are amoral in nature are sunday schools and conferences. On TWW, the newest controversy is the Mennonites and John Howard Yoder; his bully pulpit was pacifism, yet he was “declaring war” on women by sexually abusing. Yet another abuse from the institution surfaces. Anytime one man or woman has the platform and claims authority,
abuse tends to abound. We have seen it over and over- when are going to start questioning the whole deal? We have done it for so long that it is hard for us to see it any other way and delude ourselves to thinking that this was and is the way that it has been done since NT church. Just asking questions.
Where is the Holy Spirit in all this? All I heard in my 40 of “developing thinking years” was all about the church and the pastor/elders not about listening to the Holy Spirit for truth. I look at the elder as any other function or gift of the Spirit; it just bears greater responsibility and danger then the other gifts, such as gifts of faith, discernment , mercy, etc… This is why the older and wiser servants who brought themselves lower were considered the more credible. No true servant will assert his “bravado and dominance” over a group of people. Such as with this vaccine issue if the pastor really wanted to be a true shepherd of the flock he would not have to manipulate by being the sole voice on the subject. But as always, he has the pulpit which sits above the rest of the congregation.
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I say lets ask the questions- Paul commended the Bereans for asking and did not condemn by insisting they be silent.
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“We need less people who are seeking followers for themselves or think their sermon is the most important event of the week or worried about the budgets.”
Yeah, with the primary concern being their own personal budgets.
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Julie Anne,
You had said/asked:
“So a pastor who doesn’t preach about vaccines isn’t truly loving people? Is that what you’re saying?”
What I am saying is that pastors have a responsibility to the community, because the job of Christians is Good Works. And if we, as Christians, are not doing things that make our community better, keeping God in a box, then yes, that is what I am saying, we aren’t truly loving people.
Our local church should be concerned with community, not our own individual self. Our Good Works are supposed to be a positive influence on those who are not Christians to begin with.
We are indeed supposed to get involved in life saving current events outside of the little box that some wish to keep us and God in with the “spiritual” message. We need to get carnally involved in our community, and church going members are indeed that community as well. Saving lives is a good thing, Julie Anne.
A great word that a division officer of mine used to say, “Be Pro-active”.
Ed
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Plus, I would say sign me up for the “Lone Ranger” Brigade. Except somebody would likely want to incorporate the brigade, adopt covenants, constitutions, bylaws, hierarchies of authority, brigade courts, bodies of elders, regional and national conferences, and on and on. And that would all be in addition to acknowledging the sway of an all-powerful, unaccountable general.
And no, I’m not being cynical, just realistic.
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I did attend a church 1 1/2 years ago that in mind fit a true fellowship of believers. A group of elders were quote in “charge”. These men, in my mind, were godly men. They had no use for lots of programs; their church was simple; the “pastor” would not be called pastor, and there was lots of discussion and fellowship. There was respect.
An inccident that I was a part of involved a family program which included a group of well known Christian celebrities. The one I had an issue with was our good ole’ pal Mark Driscoll; he was on the panel. I wrote a letter to the “pastor” and told him of my concerns- this main elder instead of dismissing or berating me went right away to the other elders and conveyed to them what I was concerned with and they started to question and study about the issue. To my surprise, the whole program was canned. This in my opinion was the right way to deal with an issue that arose that could have led many astray. Nor did I start making a big fuss to everyone in the church and make the elders look foolish.
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Ed – I can’t respond to you today because of school kicking my you know what. I really hope you take to heart what Serving had to say. He articulated survivors well. We must always consider the weak, the oppressed when we look at the whole picture.
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Trust4HimOnly,
You had said:
“which was a OT practice due to one thing: making sure the Levitical priests were taken care of.”
My response:
It is this reason exactly that I think that people need to study it out on their own, and then there comes a much better understanding.
The priests had a job, and that job was all pertaining to working in the temple. Well, we are that temple. And…we are the royal priests. So, when a collection is done in the church, and the bible does indeed discuss collecting money, it is for the people in the church, to take care of the people in the church, so that no one had too little, or no one had too much. It was to support each other.
So, there is a purpose of tithing, because in the days of Abraham, he tithed, and there was no such thing a Levitcal priests in the days of Abraham. There was no temple.
When we remove the Law of Moses, there is still Abraham, and he tithed. Things from the OT, as we inaccurately call it, has practical uses for today, hence, my argument that social things are in the Bible.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
I agree with what Serving said…but I also believe that there needs to be a path to healing. It needs to be an option, whether the person takes it or not, that is up to them. I already know that you can’t force a drug addict to get help until they want to. I have much experience about learning that one. But the offer needs to be there.
Ed
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But Ed should not the Holy Spirit being spurring us on with these good works- can we not trust Him to do so? When I hear “we must be about the community, not the individual” I see “prancing socialistic fairies and sugarplums for the common good dancing in my head” This is common mantra in my neck of the woods.
You cannot force or manipulate those to serve. Service comes from the heart, as does giving. Paul encouraged, he did not enforce.
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Trust4HimOnly,
Well, whatever happened to the little insignificant unknown church just down the street? Why do people think that they need to drive 75 miles to go to a mega church, when there is “community” in something tiny? The tiny church down the street is probably more justified than the mega church’s with famous preachers.
Ed
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And no I do not go to the OT for my teaching, as far as, application of rules , otherwise I be studying and applying the 600+ Jewish Laws + circumcision. No thank you.
We are Gentiles and studying in Galations showed me well enough that we are not bound by the Law. We live in the Law of Grace and by the Spirit. And whatever the Spirit convicts us on we listen and obey.
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Trust4HimOnly,
You had said:
“But Ed should not the Holy Spirit being spurring us on with these good works- can we not trust Him to do so? When I hear “we must be about the community, not the individual” I see “prancing socialistic fairies and sugarplums for the common good dancing in my head” This is common mantra in my neck of the woods.
You cannot force or manipulate those to serve. Service comes from the heart, as does giving. Paul encouraged, he did not enforce.”
My response:
Faith without works is dead. The Holy Spirit’s role is to teach, not to do the work for you.
The Bible discusses that we must be DOERS not just hearers (James).
Ephesians discusses:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It seems that you discus ideologies outside of Christianity as a justification to not do anything “community”.
Our good works are to “be seen of men”. Seen. Where? Community.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Ed
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Ed, I think what a lot of people would tell you is that the little church down the road may be shepherded by a fan of the guy at the mega-church. It’s not, as I’ve learned a few times, a gimme that it’ll be better. I share your suspicions of the mega-church, but walking away ain’t always a gimme.
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I would also like an answer to this question: Has there been more abuse, discouragement, disillusionment, control, doubt, depression happening inside the church institution or with those people who walk away from the institution?
Remember we are talking about thousands of years of control within the church institution and who has been some of the greatest perpetrators of abuse? Those who stay within or those who come out?
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Ed did you not read my last words- YOU LISTEN (part of obedience) and YOU OBEY (meaning take action). Do not twist and add in what I did not imply
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And yes I have read all those verses before
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The tithe issue is complicated. If you add it up with in the OT, it is more like 23%. the 10% we hear about today is taken from the portion that was a temple tax. another portion was to go to poor people and so on. It was a complex system for a group of people who operated as a nation.
Jesus told Peter: the sons are free…when Peter obligated him to pay the temple tax.
we do see offerings given in the New Testament to help other believers. Paul was constantly raising money for the Jerusalem church which was being persecuted.
There is no “tax” in this covenant.
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Well I am out ……for I have to go teach my kooky (already vaccinated) homeschool kids 🙂
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What does healing look like to you, Ed? Please be careful in your responses. I think this is where those who have never experienced abuse have unrealistic expectations of what healing/recovery looks like. The wounded are often shamed in their recovery process because they aren’t getting over it in someone else’s timetable.
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Ed –
I don’t think anyone is advocating not doing good works. Just because a few cannot in good conscience get vaccinated does not mean they are not doing any good works. There are good works for all of us to do. You may never know the good works of some.
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I don’t really understand the uproar about the measles outbreak this year either. It happens every year to a small degree. It’s like everyone is just waiting for something to pounce on for news and media fodder.
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So we know what we are actually talking about here.
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html
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This discussion leads me to ask-how do you find a congregation that is safe? I use to thing my church was safe until the pastor changed the denomination (twice) and seemed to totally control the elders. I have learned to stay away from mega-churches, but my husband and I (both church attenders since birth) quit church several years ago. We aren’t looking for perfection, just tired of political, self-promoting leaders. How have you and your readers found safer churches? Any particular denominations? Thanks!
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Actually, what I had wanted to discuss is in the last paragraph of this post. The measles/vax issue is really a side issue to the intent of this post.
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Julie Anne –
The discussion came up anyway – sorry.
I would prefer that anyone from the pulpit would simply encourage their congregation with children to do the due diligence with their pediatricians on vaccines.
I just don’t understand why it has become such a thing to talk about this time around.
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Yea, I was wondering why so many Christian leaders in public spotlight jumped on this bandwagon as If they had all the answers. I found it odd.
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In all honesty, Christian leaders are jumping on the bandwagon of most current big topics in the media these days. They want to put “the event” being discussed into a Christian context. This isn’t always bad, but it can be overkill and annoying when done from a pulpit where there is not discussion. It often leaves the impression that the congregation is incapable of thinking things through for themselves.
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In all honesty, Christian leaders are jumping on the bandwagon of most current big topics in the media these days. They want to put “the event” being discussed into a Christian context. This isn’t always bad, but it can be overkill and annoying when done from a pulpit where there is not discussion. It often leaves the impression that the congregation is incapable of thinking things through for themselves.”
I have noticed this for a while now. They are acting like “,pundits” using an issue to get their name bandied about on social media.
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It is child abuse not to vaccinate your children, unless they have a medical condition which mitigates against vaccination, such as a compromised immune system that would not respond to the vaccination or which would have an inability to create antibodies.
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It is child abuse to not vaccinate your child and an attack on the health of others who are immunocompromised. Exception: your child has a medical condition that prevents an appropriate response to vaccination.
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Well, that’s not really the topic of discussion, but would be a fun debate topic (not here).
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I will just say that it is very uncomfortable at my church because the pastors family is very disrespectful online to people who don’t vaccinate. They have said that people who don’t vaccinate are uneducated, get medical advice from Google, are unloving to their children, responsible for death of others, stupid, etc. it is hard because I can’t vaccinate. I used to but one of my kids had a rare but terrible reaction. They act like it was unrelated to the vaccine though the doctor told me that it was a definite vaccine reaction. Honestly I can’t even be around them anymore because they are so rude and it is none of their business if people at their church vaccinate or not. One of them said if your kid is not fully vaccinated they don’t want your kids around their kids. How does that work at church? And do they then not go on mission trips? Or Target? Or in public where you can encounter anyone who is sick? It is hurtful to feel picked on, just because my kid had a bad reaction.
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Trust4HimOnly
You had said:
“And no I do not go to the OT for my teaching, as far as, application of rules , otherwise I be studying and applying the 600+ Jewish Laws + circumcision. No thank you.
We are Gentiles and studying in Galations showed me well enough that we are not bound by the Law. We live in the Law of Grace and by the Spirit. And whatever the Spirit convicts us on we listen and obey.”
My response:
I wasn’t discussing the Law of Moses, now was I? I specifically stated that when the Law of Moses is “removed” that we still have Abraham.
The Bible begins in Genesis 1, the Law begins in Exodus 20. The Old Covenant/Testament is the Law of Moses and that is from Exodus 20 to the end of Deuteronomy.
And then there is the Prophets, and the Psalms, and those are from Joshua to Malachi. These are inaccurately called the Old Testament. These are not the old Testament.
Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill. When I state the word Law, it is not the Old Testament, but the Torah, which is Genesis to Deuteronomy. The Old Covenant is within the Torah, and it is the old covenant that is done away with, but the Torah itself is not done away with. Why? Because there is still unfulfilled prophesies in the Law and the Prophets, and that is the reason that Jesus stated that he didn’t come to destroy the law (torah) or the prophets.
I say all that to show that there is need to consult Genesis to Malachi, without getting into obeying the 613 laws of Moses. Christianity does not start with Matthew, or John. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not a replacement of, and begins in Genesis. There is no laws of Moses in Genesis, or Joshua to Malachi.
Besides, how do you know what sin is without the knowledge of the law? 1 John 3:4 states that sin is the transgression of the law. Galatians does indeed tell us that the law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. We had to go to the school master first in order to get to Christ.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
You had said, and warned me:
“What does healing look like to you, Ed? Please be careful in your responses. I think this is where those who have never experienced abuse have unrealistic expectations of what healing/recovery looks like. The wounded are often shamed in their recovery process because they aren’t getting over it in someone else’s timetable.”
My response:
Healing begins and ends with Jesus alone. Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is known as the Word of God. The Words of Jesus is in the Bible.
The Bible is our source for healing, and yes, the Bible discusses to talk to others, because others are supposed to edify you, lift you up, etc., etc. Fellowship with Christian friends that you can trust to cry with you, laugh with you, have empathy with you, have compassion for you. All of that is in the Bible, and that is how Jesus wants us to interact with others. It’s all about Love. The bible does not forbid secular counseling, etc., as some wish to preach, so if a person needs therapy, etc., then they should be encouraged, and supported. Jesus is there with you to walk with you through all of the process. Jesus is the center of healing, through whatever it takes in our walk with him. No restrictions. No rules. Jesus cries when you cry, he hurts when you hurt. Jesus went thru people hating him, brutally beating him, and was tempted just like we are. He can indeed have empathy on us, as God was one of us. Love has everything to do with it, and people that you can trust love you the way that God loves you. Love is action, in this sense. God created us to be social people with emotions. Anger, is included, and when a person is in a healing process, anger is a part of that process. But over time, that anger is transformed.
A while back, I spoke to you and Barb about an organization called “Living Waters” that Barb and Brad was familiar with, as well. I don’t know of any negative reviews of Living Waters. But I do know that class helps abused Christians, whether it be physical, emotional, or spiritual.
I hope this comment helps.
Ed
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If they’re doing anything other than warning that forced vaccinations are the NWOs way of paving the way for forced chipping (i.e. the mark of the beast) then they’re out of line.
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@The Last Hiker, “One of them said if your kid is not fully vaccinated they don’t want your kids around their kids.”
Sounds like they don’t trust the vaccine much…because their kid is vaccinated, right? So what does whether your kid is or not have anything to do with it? If vaccines really produce immunity, then their kids is immune. Ah, but that’s the dirty little secret. These NWO shills know that vaccines don’t produce immunity, and that its all about training you to take the chip. (That and spreading the flu or whatever it is, because more people get it from the vaccine. I haven’t gotten the flu once since I stopped taking it, although I got it every year I took the vaccine).
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If preaching vaccines from the pulpit falls under “loving my neighbor”, why not also preach the following?
• that no one come to church or go out in public unless they are confident they do not carry any communicable disease
• that no one come to church or go out in public if they have been recently vaccinated with a live virus (you don’t know if your “neighbor” might be immune-compromised)
• that no one come to church or go out in public wearing a fragrance or clothing that has been washed in something containing a fragrance (your “neighbor” might be chemically-sensitive; I know several people who cannot attend church for this reason, and I’ve suffered in the past)
• church potlucks should include plenty of tasty allergen-free choices
• the needs of abused women and children should be met lovingly rather than ignored (oh, wait…that’s meddling!)
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good one rrprewett!
Ed, I believe that the law is fulfilled by Christ’s blood. Yes you are right that the law shows us our sin
but that is it. The law of Moses only condemns it does not do the believer any good.
I believe that the law of Moses was replaced by the “law” of love. Abraham did not have the law but was saved by faith. What law compels you Ed? I know love is what compels me; I know that it is freedom that compels me to WANT to serve and love my Savior. It is a heart issue. We have to choose it. Love is what conquers all fear and guilt and doubt. It moves us to grow the fruit of the Spirit- love, gentleness, compassion, joy, long-suffering, patience, self-control, goodness. This is the law.
This is what produces results- not me going to church on Sunday, sitting in a pew,
paying my tithes, pastor telling me “I am not a Christian because……..” reading the Bible in a year, etc…..
You name it, one can conjur up all kinds of silly rules and laws. This is what the Pharisees did. Even with the Ten Commandments the Law of love supersedes that even for it goes even further- Love those who persecute you, REALLY love God by your heart, not by doing your duties. Love is what changes us and moves us to want and do more. I am not perfect by any means but I am growing like a tree planted near the water. And to tell you the truth for me, my love has grown deeper and more meaningful when I stepped out of the church. I feel less doubtful, less self-righteous, less guilt That does not mean that everyone is that way or has to do what I did, but for me it has been a breath of fresh air and I feel free. See Ed, there no reason for me to have to try to change someone else because God is way bigger then that and He is the Changer. I do not have to worry about someone elses spiritual journey; it is mine that I have to care for. We can be with love to help, love and exhort; but dictate and try to change – No!
So there is no way you could say anything theologically or by your own experience that could make me go back. So we can stop here with getting into debates about theology. I have been there; read that; did that for 40 + years
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And another thing Ed, if you are coming on here compelled by LOVE for others and not by traditions or theologies. I will give my hat off to you and gladly accept what you have to say. So are you coming in love or for your own preservation of what you have been taught?
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When people are so preoccupied by changing everyone else’s behavior (and even in grievious sin Paul stated that a believer/non-believer was to be dealt with by God alone if that person would not listen to wise counsel) instead of dealing with their own then this where control and abuse grows and flourishes.
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Have not read any of the comments here, so I will address the post even though my family has experienced some disturbing and troubling outcomes from the vaccination process….including abuse from medical professionals in denying the vaccinations caused the damage to our children’s bodies….even thought every single symptom was listed on those precious sheets they give you AFTER the vaccination has been administered.
Perhaps the term “god’s police force” strikes home with the clergy system now becoming involved in the affairs of men for the “common good” of all of mankind. I heard a teacher from one of the “discernment ministries” state that vaccinations are good and healthy for our society and that God is big enough to protect His people from the reactions and permanent damage done from these vaccines……
If God is big enough to protect us from personal damage done to us and our children from the vaccination process, well then, is our God not “big enough” to protect us from not getting any disease in the first place without the vaccines?
Are we soon becoming “wards of the state……as 501c. 3 churches already have compromised.” Give a sermon on vaccinations and the “Amens and Alleluias” are shouted from the pews….give a stirring sermon on obesity here in America and the pastors will hear the silence from the lambs and the echoes of their voices in their empty buildings for months thereafter. Please pastors, if you don’t have your own houses in order, please, please, please do not tell us how to raise our families for we can understand the Word of God as well, for our bodies are the living temples of His Holy Spirit.
Are those precious neighbors there for you when your children are crippled from receiving vaccinations……..no, they are not.
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Good comment Katy! I agree and I am glad you brought up the 501c. 3 tax. This is what many do not get; you sign up with 501c 3 you sign up with the IRS. They can tell you what and not what to say in your church. Just makes you wonder why all of a sudden “with the measles crisis” we now hear specific preachers getting “riled” up about this issue- huh? I do not have the proof but it does seem weird.
I remember Rick Warren doing a Daniel Plan (for diet) which basically was a guilt trip for everyone to get on board and with the program of losing weight. Can’t have a boatload of “obese” people making our church look bad.
oh the usual “appeal to authority” “appeal to the people” and bandwagon fallacies. Propaganda at its best.
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Trust, 501C3 does not allow the government to intrude into what a church does beyond requiring that (a) churches not endorse candidates officially and (b) churches must give all candidates time if they choose to allow one to speak. (b) is widely ignored when the church is predominantly minority and/or liberal.
it is a concern, but it’s not as if they’re telling Baptists to sprinkle babies or anything like that.
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Bike- maybe I should have clarified. Churches have opened themselves up to the IRS to scrutinize and encroach on free speech. Churches do not have to be 501c. 3
but if they want to act as a corporate entity of course they have to comply.
http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/News/PRDetail/9219
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/07/21/irs-agrees-monitor-churches-electioneering
http://www.selfgovern.com/irs-freedom-from-religion/
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It is still not going through so look up Alliance Defending Freedom article “IRS promises Atheists it will intrude on churches….”
Mod ed: Here is the link: http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/News/PRDetail/9219
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And you say the government is not getting into our business-
thefederalist.com/2014/10/22/california-orders-churches-to-fund-abortions-or-else/
something to think about and research a little more.
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