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Do Christians have a responsibility to vaccinate their children? Is this a matter of religious liberty? Should Christian leaders use their platform to influence us in this health matter?
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It seems that we have been getting barraged with religious leaders trying to convince us one way or the other on the recent vaccine issue in the news as Measles has made a comeback with a recent outbreak. I was surprised to see numerous tweets from religious leaders and wondered what you thought about this.
Below are just some of the tweets and articles, including some excerpts I have found.
And Now a Brief Word on Vaccines – by Doug Wilson
The claim I am making here is very limited. If a person has decided personal convictions about the contagious disease he is carrying, the society in which he lives has an equal right to have decided and contrary convictions about that same contagious disease he has. And if there is an outbreak of such a disease, and the government quarantines everyone who is not vaccinated, requiring them to stay at home, the name for this is prudence, not tyranny.
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3 reasons Christians should vaccinate with confidence by Justin Smith of ERLC (The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission)
In the midst of all the confusion about vaccines, I believe that Christians don’t have to be the ones who are confused. We can use the gift of vaccines with confidence knowing that, ultimately, our lives and our health are in the hands of our Father.
Cripplegate is blog with 4 contributors who seem to have connections with John MacArthur’s seminary/church. This article was posted on Cripplegate: Anti-vaxxers and epistemological narcissism
Take note at how they use scripture to justify vaccinating:
- Vaccines are a form of common grace that have dramatically changed the world for the better (Gen 3:18
; Ps 145:9-16; Matt 5:44-45; Acts 14:16-17). Participating in the blessings of common grace in a post-Babel society means that we bond together as nations, and we use common grace to make quality of life better (Gen 9:6, 2 Kings 12:2, Luke 6:33). We work, we marry, and we protect each other. A basic way to do that is to be vaccinated against diseases that plague the cultures that don’t vaccinate.
- Thus, being vaccinated is a form of loving your neighbor (Lev 19:18; Matt 5:43,Rom 13:8-10, Jas 2:8). Knowing that some are too little, too young, or too weak to be vaccinated, we protect the weak by being vaccinated.
The last paragraph admits this is gray area which is bizarre because if it truly is a gray area, can you really use scripture to 100% back up your stance?
I recognize that this is a Christian gray-area, and it goes beyond what is written to say that a person is sinning by being an anti-vaxxer. But it does not go beyond what is written to appeal to believer’s discernment: don’t undo one of society’s crowning scientific advancements because of epistemological narcissism.
Rev. Paul Brandeis Raushenbush, Executive Religion Editor for the Huffington Post posted an article and a podcast at Huffington post. (The podcast will start immediately as soon as you open the page, but you can turn it off and read the article: Love Thy Neighbor: Vaccinate (All Together Podcast). Dr. Claire McCarthy, a pediatrician at Boston Children’s hospital, Dr. Robert Klitzman, professor and Director of the Bioethics Program at Columbia School of Public Health, and Sally Steenland, Director of the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative at the Center for American Progress, were on the podcast and discussed why this is not a religious liberty issue. Paul concludes:
Jesus commands to love our neighbor as ourselves. This gets to the heart of the vaccination issue. It’s not just about loving your own family. It is also about caring for the well-being of your neighbors and your community. Everyone should vaccinate their children as an act of love.
In this case, we have a reverend with a highly visible position in public media using his platform to push his agenda. Is this okay?
Pat Robertson Says He’s Against Vaccination Mandates:
I’m sure that there’s some serious consequences to measles, and perhaps vaccinations is the answer, but I don’t think any parent should be forced by the government to vaccinate.
https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/562272594419015681
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If I looked longer, I’m sure I could find even more articles from religious leaders. I have some questions:
Is it a religious leader’s responsibility to inform private citizens about their views on immunizations?
At what point do religious leaders cross the line when it comes to health concerns and using their position of authority/celebrity-ism to influence?
How much credence do we give to religious leaders on issues of health?
As you can see above, some say this is a gray area or a religious liberty area, where others say it is not. Do you think we can discuss this topic, specifically the bolded questions without getting personal and debating the pros/cons of vaccines? Please exercise caution when commenting. I specifically would like to keep it to the subject of Christian leaders pushing their health agendas using their public platforms.
photo credit: Flu Vaccination Grippe via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hmmm….I’m a little confused by Joyelle & Julie Anne’s reaction to my link. The second one is specifically about a deadly outbreak of Measles that occurred because of a church that taught against vaccinations and any healthcare other than prayer.
On a personal note, I care deeply about this issue because I have a child who is autistic and I fully support vaccinations and do not believe there is any connection between autism and vaccines.
If this is beyond the scope of what you hoped to discuss, I apologize. Feel free to delete if it is.
Either way, I do think the question you are asking is a valid and important topic.
Thanks-CA
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ChristianAgnostic,
You and I are in agreement, which is why I mentioned that some Christian groups are opposed to anything Government, thinking that they are the evil empire, and some go so far as to equate our government to the Roman Empire, or even worse, Babylon, the whore. Now THAT is what I find as outrageous religious preaching.
Ed
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Ok, Ed, I’ll let others try to convince you. I’ve got too much homework to do tonight.
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Ed – – I don’t see vaccinations as a spiritual issue at all, but a social issue. Pastors deal with spiritual. Doctors/scientists deal with medical issues that have social implications. ok, now I’ll stop.
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Oh, JA, I’m so glad that I don’t have your schedule. I’d give you an A+ on time management!!
Ed
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JA,
I disagree about your distinguishing a difference between social and spiritual.
Saving lives is both.
Ed
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JA,
One more thing…how we LIVE OUT our social lives is a REFLECTION of our Christianity. We are supposed to REFLECT Christ is our daily LIVING of our lives to and for other people in our good works.
God is not in a box for us. Jesus is in our bodies, we do not leave Jesus at church when we leave church. We are to LIVE our faith, and our lives are social. Our lives are not just home and church. Our good works are to be seen of men (women, too).
All of that is all social stuff.
Ed
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I have to admit I get ticked off about this stuff, in the developmental center I took care of people who had measles and polio and were not vaccinated. These kids brains were rotted away by fever in the case of measles and the kid was basically well had no higher brain functions. There is no glory in that, and a God that allows such horrors to take place has alot to answer for. Yes I am judging God or should I say some people’s version of God, if I was an eternal Father, never would a child suffer, ever. That makes me a God hating heretic, like when I mentioned Job’s children were snuffed out because God had a bet with satan, but in the end Job got more kids so all is good. No its not, losing a kid guts a parent, I know I saw it, way too many times.
The conspiracy minds dont understand, some of these viruses/ bacteria have the potential of mutating into a species ender. I know billions dying in some horrid plague to herald the coming of Jesus, but that is just totally stupid. Kids dying by the truck load like they did back in the good old days prior to vaccines and antibiotics, nothing was gained but just dead kids/adults.
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BTDT,
No one should be harassed from the pulpit, public, media or government. All medicines have risk. I shutter to think what risks I am taking by the medications that I take every day, so I don’t think about it, I just do it because I know what the alternatives are.
I can envision the pastor at the church I attend talking about vaccines. He hasn’t at this point. If he did if would probably be something like: “We all know there is an outbreak of _______________ . I am not a physician, but you should think about those around you. Look around the room at those you see here. Would you want them to get this serious illness when it could be prevented. I won’t say anymore. Just think about it.” That was about all he has said about domestic violence since I have been there.
Every American whether they be good clergy or crackpot celeb pastors or everyday citizens have the right to voice their opinions. They don’t have the right to shove it down anyone’s throat. There will always be risks.
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Joyelle,
If the position of any of the celebs is, “love your neighbor as yourself”. I would agree that they should speak up.
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JA,
If my responses are too personal, feel free to delete them. I feel this is a personal issue. I would listen to what others have to say. It is not like the measles vaccine is a new concept.
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Ed, you said: The Needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few. Jesus died on the cross to save many. One man died to save us, who are many.
So, when a Christian Leader, no matter what his theology is, states something that saves lives, I’m not getting what the opposition is, I’m not getting why Christians do are up in arms about this topic being discussed by preachers.
I completely agree. We are suppose to be about community and doing good for the world, whatever that might be. I might quote a few scriptures on the subject if I were asked my opinion. I have never been told how to vote though. I do understand if you’ve been in a stepford community under a so-called pastor, I can understand being leery of what these folks have to say, but I don’t think they are wrong in stating their views from a biblical perspective on this topic.
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Religious leader should only inform on what is God made vs. What is man made. They should responsibly share statistics of various decisions of what people have done with their body that cause earlier death (smoking increases cancer rates) or vaccinations are more likely to cause early death then actual disease in modern well nutrition child. Native American medicine has spiritual aspects so man should discern between man made vs. God made. After informing, the followers can make own personal choice without ‘guilt’ of standing before heavenly father because heard the CORRECT TRUTH AND NOT MEDIA MADE LIES.
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Raggdylaura,
When I mentioned the word “guilt”, that was in the context of YOU having the disease in which YOU gave the disease to another. Wouldn’t you feel like telling that person, “I’m sorry that I didn’t take care of myself FOR YOU”?
Wouldn’t you cry? Wouldn’t you feel bad? Or would you truly be guilt free and just tell that person, “Ain’t my fault”?
Ed
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Pastors have enough of a challenge getting scripture right, so I think it’s a little ludicrous and a lot presumptuous for pastors to try getting the topic of medical care right – unless, of course, their thing is controlling the behavior of the flock.
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This is to those who think it’s okay for pastors to spout off medical stuff from the pulpit: What’s next? telling us what we should eat, not eat, telling us how we should exercise? Oh, you better keep your seatbelts on – you know, love your neighbor, because statistics show that you will more likely survive a crash with your seatbelt on. Oh, and while we’re at it, you better have helmets on while riding bikes.
Pulpit is for spiritual matters. How we take care of our body is our business. Of course we consider others in that process, but that’s not something a non-medical, non-scientist person should be spouting off at the pulpit.
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JA, Hope you got that homework done! :-). With all the forms of media spouting various points of view, we would hope that people would sort through info and make informed decisions. That is not always the case. I remember a while back hairdressers (in predominantly black communities) became involved in educating their customers on breast exams and the importance of mammograms. When public health issues are involved, sometimes unexpected resources can be used. Maybe I am am narrowing your question to these issues, but that was your example. The pulpit can be a powerful place to get important health information out to their congregation. The problem comes in of course when a pastor has a political agenda or is flat out ignorant. So I guess, no, the pastor doesn’t need to tell a congregation what to do, but maybe offer resources to educate those who are questioning mainstream medicine or need information on epidemic outbreaks.
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I think it’s wrong for this subject at the pulpit – – now if they want to say it privately, that’s another issue. The deal is that if a pastor is saying: everybody get your vaccines – it’s loving your neighbor yada yada, I hope that pastor is also saying a disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor, please seek your doctor’s advice to make sure this is safe for you. I hope they also say, this is not a spiritual matter in the sense of if you do or do not vaccinate, there are spiritual consequences. That’s wrong.
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That’s the problem, Ann, pastors who have an agenda or use their position to control or influence others to their agenda.
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Julie Anne,
Do you really have a problem with the “Love Thy Neighbor” stuff, Julie Anne?
This is a community health issue, not a dietary issue. When you say, “spiritual” matters, what do you mean?
Do you not think that the Bible discusses how we are to behave in the community, outside of church, in the carnal world, with carnal people?
We have fat people at church…their fatness does not effect other people.
Throughout our history, church’s have been instrumental in getting information out, assisting in major catastrophes, etc. Are we really gonna tell the church’s to stop doing good works, because it has nothing to do with spiritual stuff?
I remember watching Little House on the Prairie as a kid. How did they do things back then?
Season 1 Episode 18, the plague. I am downloading it now. Do we really separate church from everyday living?
I’m kinda surprised by your “what’s love got to do with it” stuff.
Should a pastor tell a drunk to stop drinking? Yes! Why? It’s his body. How about telling a drug addict to stop doing drugs? Yes! Why? It’s his body.
Do we care about others, or are we all about number one…ourselves?
Seat belts are lawfully mandatory, there is no choice these days. So, there is no need for a preacher to preach it, but if he did, I have no problem. Why? Because it saves lives.
Are you really against saving lives by any means necessary?
Ed
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Ed, don’t get me wrong – I am all about social issues, improving lifestyle for better health, etc. These are NOT areas of expertise for pastors. If they want to be very general ie, our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit, take care of our bodies, but to use the pulpit as a bully pulpit on specific issues (such as I have mentioned), then no way. If in general conversation with someone, okay. Pastors should be preaching the Word, not scientific studies or their agendas.
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The Bible does mention drunks and being sober – – that’s all there. That is so we can be clear minded and not act like fools. I don’t have a problem with preaching on being careful about drinking. Now if the pastor said no drinking, I’d have a problem with that.
I think you’ve dismissed everything I’ve said and others have said about specific issues with vaccinations. You haven’t touched the what ifs, that some people’s lives are compromised if they get vaccinated. Where is their exemption and how is that accounted for in a church setting where a pastor is spouting off his opinion?
Back to homework.
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I guess I am one of those kooky homeschool naturalpath conservative RN moms that have questions about vaccinations today (by the way many lefty liberals were and are the forerunners of the natural health movement – I applaud them).
I am not against vaccines I just think we are at a place of over-vaccination to the point that every “Dick, Jane, and Harry of diseases” NEED a vaccine to eliminate the problem. We run the risk of compromising our own immune systems to fight off diseases naturally (my dad died being on 14 meds all at once). The major problem with any disease is lack of hygiene and proper nutrition, yet this is not even being brought out. When the quote “measles pandemic story” broke out (ebola virus broke out a few months before and they wanted a vaccine for that) everyone got in hysterics and started blaming and scapegoating “anti-vacciners” calling them all sorts of names (including these preachers). And by the way, where is the story on ebola now? I guess we are already being swayed by media to react for whatever reason they want us to be divided on. Wheres the frustration and anger on cancer, diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, autism and etc? Where is the frustration on undocumented immigrants coming in this country with the diseases? Where is the frustration on mental health and abuse? Oh I forgot it is about a few cases of measles, which by the way happens every year.
This is wrong- plain and simple; and no different then the pastors going after the flock for questioning their belief systems or ways they are conducting church or abuse. Why not let these parents question? Why not develop a panel that is public with both sides of the issue to come forward? Don’t demonize. Most parents have good intuition about what is good or not good for their children. Most of these parents like Jenny McCarthy are not out to do harm; they want to do what is right by their families. Give them a voice. We run the risk of the pendulum swinging to the other side and allowing only “appeal to authority” and the bandwagon effect to be the sole authority on the issue. There I said my peace. Guess we will wait for the next quote “pandemic” story to crop up in the media vortex.
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There are so many comments that I have only been able to skim, but I have not seen this aspect brought up. A pastor is responsible for the church he pastors, which often includes Sunday School/Children’s Church, etc. Part of that responsibility is to make it as safe an environment as possible. Now many churches try to protect kids from predators by doing background checks, checking kids in and out, etc. What about protecting kids from unvaccinated children and/or adults?
Is that not part of a pastor’s job? And should he not announce such policies from the pulpit? Should he not be concerned about the health of those in his church as far as what they may be exposed to there?
Is this really something that they can just ignore and hope goes away?
/Devil’s advocate hat off….
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Julie Anne,
Why do you have a problem with a pastor “spouting off his opinion” about a social issue? In my opinion, social issues ARE spiritual issues. They go hand in hand.
I did not dismiss your “if’s”. I stated that the “if’s” are LIMITED to a few, but overall, it is beneficial for the majority. More people die without it, than those who have adverse effects from it. Should we all die for the sake of a few who have might have an adverse effect? And you are gonna say that preachers should not preach about people dying, or what people can do to save their life, and the lives of others?
Is it good to save a life on the Sabbath? Is that a social issue, or a spiritual one? Jesus asked that question.
Should preachers preach about saving lives? Or, should we just give ’em the gospel and let ’em die, while we get the same disease that they had before they died, passing it on to others?
Well, I’m gonna watch Little House on the Prairie. That is my homework for the day….hehehe!
Ed
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Wendell G.
Very good, Wendell, very good indeed!!
Ed
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JA, You have opened up a very interesting topic! I do love a lively debate! (As long as no one gets personally offensive). I live in a Southern city where the only permissible topics are the weather, church, and the weather. Believe me, the weather here is not that interesting! You have school work, a horde of kids ( more than one is a horde to me) and this blog. My main question is do you sleep? 🙂
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Ed, I just find it all a little convenient that all of a sudden the issue of vaccines are in the arena of the pulpit when this is a hot topic in the media now. I think it was also funny how many pastors were on the bandwagon of allowing immigrants to start pouring into our country without going by the law when the media brought the issue up. What about the issues of gonorrhea, hepatitis and syphilis not being discussed when using public restrooms? Or any other thousands of communicable diseases? such as smallpox?
What —-are we going to inoculate ourselves to oblivion?
These issues to need to be a part of parents and the medical community (natural and scientific medicine – in which I believe in both). Lack of reason can travel to the other side also and basically when it involves control and money.
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Of all the issues out there pastors are now deciding “Hey lets talk about vaccines and put pressure on everyone to do it” Something smells of agenda. That is is just my gut feeling. I just want real honest debate with both sides on the table and not sensationalism
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Trust4HimOnly,
I find no problem in it at all. Current events should be discussed in church, not just on the 6 o’clock news at home.
Look, in a church, everything is supposed to be on a relationship basis, hence the word “fellowship”. And we are supposed to take on one anothers burdens, comfort each other, and many other “social” things. And you want to tell the pastor to keep his opinion to himself?????
Church isn’t just about giving the gospel. It is also about living life from Monday to Saturday, too.
It isn’t about, “Sorry about your luck, I’ll pray for ya, brother”, either. We gotta put our feet into action, hence, faith without works is dead.
I’m not happy that some want to keep God in a box, and not help out their fellow man if it was because that is what the preacher preached about. The church has every right to address social issues. That is the way it was many years ago, and now…seems to me to be like ALL OF A SUDDEN, some people wish to defy the preachers, and just give em the finger…the middle one…and say, “I’m not gonna do what you say, just because you said it.”
Is Jesus happy about that kind of attitude that we give to our preachers when what he is stating is CARING for his flock, a job that he is supposed to do?
We all get on the band wagon when preachers abuse people, but when they advise helping people, we tend to ALSO get on the bandwagon and condemn them.
Social issues being discussed by a preacher is NOT EVIL. Why are we judging that? It didn’t used to be like this. People once RESPECTED their preachers in giving LIFE SOCIAL advice, and that is what ELDERS are supposed to be all about, giving advice, all because they have already “lived life”, HENCE the word “elder”.
Why are WE off track with that respect to our elders in this regard?
Ed
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more people die from obese related diseases and yet “crickets” from the pulpit. “We better not touch that sacred cow-right?
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Wendell describes well the slippery slope that pastors follow when getting away from the teaching of the Word of God and indulging in behavior modification. The church board or the one responsible for the church (could also be the pastor) makes the decision about the rules of membership or rules of participation. It is not a “scriptural teaching issue and it does not need to be addressed from the pulpit. That is tantamount to bullying. If a member takes issue with the rules then it is addressed by the rule maker. However, I don’t mean to suggest that sinful behavior shouldn’t be addressed by the pastor – it should. Sin is certainly the domain of the pastor. (I don’t mean that the way it sounds.)
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Elders in the NT, as far as I know, did not get involve with non-related issues such as health or what they ate, etc.. As far as I know Paul said to not judge those who ate or did not eat. You cannot find anything like that from scripture Ed.
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From the pulpit is the issue, Ed. It’s one-way conversation. Now if you want to have a group take this on, fine. One-way conversation without the ability to say “wait a minute” on social issues is not cool.
By the way, Ed, I think it’s fine for you to have a pastor endorse things you agree with, but see what happens when you have a strong pastor leader who endorses something you absolutely don’t agree with (from the pulpit). Then whatcha gonna do, friend? Stand up in church and yell No Way? Call me when this happens. I’ll make the 4-hr drive.
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And boy am I glad I am not in these churches that do push behavior modification- this is not their place. We could go over a whole list of health related issues that plague anyone going in and out of a church building that have killed more people then the measles. I have only gotten the flu shot once (that was ten years ago) and have not gotten it since, but a lot of this was due to informed decisions of eating right, supplements, and exercising. My choice. Your body has a way of healing itself if we take care of it right; BUT I will not try to force my own choices and demonize others to conforming or making them feel guilty.
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Ed and I go back a ways. Don’t mind us. 🙂
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“more people die from obese related diseases”
This has not always been the case. Before vaccinations, more people died from polio, measles and whooping cough.
What I don’t understand is why is it such an issue to get a shot to prevent disease when there are so many incurable ones out there. There is no cure for cancer, that is a given. If a preventative vaccine were found before a cure, would you not want your children to have the shot? I have autoimmune disorders and know a lot of other people who do as well. If they found a vaccine to prevent it, I would want my family to have the vaccine as long as there is not cure. Once you have many of these diseases, it may be too late.
I don’t particularly like many of the “religious leaders” that are getting their faces in the media this way, but in this particular instance I think God is using it for our good. I personally don’t want to see George Clooney on the TV telling us to vaccinate our kids either, but I’m sure he or someone in his group will at some point.
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Trust4HimOnly,
You mis-characterized what I was discussing.
Paul was discussing meat sacrificed to other gods, and that we have the freedom to eat the meat, because we know that there is only one God, and therefore there is no guilt, but for those who believe that they can’t eat the meat, due to it being sacrificed to other gods, then don’t eat the meat when you are with them. It’s a faith issue, or should I say, a lack of faith issue that Paul was discussing, because in 1 Cor 5, Paul states that we are to judge people in the church, but that God judges people outside of the church.
Were you ever told as a child to “respect your elders”? Why are we to respect our elders? The answer to that is the answer as to why we have elders in the church.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
From the pulpit might be a one way conversation while the preacher is doing his thing, but then there comes the after talk. In the church I attend, we talk. The big controversy last week was whether or not Jonah died in the Big Fish’s belly and was resurrected or was he kept alive for the whole 3 days. That is small potatoes in comparison to a disease that could make a major dent in the population. There would be a lot of talk over that one. There are a couple of doctors and several nurses in the congregation, so there would be a whole lot of questioning going on. The only thing I can’t get people to talk about it biblical divorce.
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Trust4HimOnly and Steve I,
” I am not in these churches that do push behavior modification”
Wow…really? You’ve never read in the Bible about behavior modification? Paul talks about it all the time. It’s all over the place.
It even goes all the way back to “the law of Moses”, when God states that IF we do such and such…curses. If we do such and such…blessings. If you want blessings, you change your behavior from x to y.
Ed
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The question is whether Christian leaders should engage in certain conduct. On reflection, I suggest that any Christian that considers themselves a leader is disqualified. Jesus came as a servant of all. Anybody who leads rather than serving is putting themselves above Jesus. Once again, they are disqualified.
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Julie Anne,
When the preacher preaches a “Love Thy Neighbor” issue, how can I disagree with the preacher? How can anyone disagree with it?
I still find no fault of the preacher using his pulpit as a means to voice his concerns about social issues. Again, that never used to be a problem, so why is it now? Why, is, it, now, a, problem? Where is the respect that preachers once had on discussing social issues from the pulpit?
Again, I ask, is saving a life on the Sabbath a good thing, or a bad thing? Is that a social issue, or a spiritual one? Should a preacher preach that one should leave church in the middle of a sermon to save a life? Or should the preacher preach his “spiritual” message first, then you can go see the dead?
Ed
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Brenda, however, there ARE numerous ways of keeping one from heart disease, cancer and other health related issues by eating right, hygiene, and exercise. We still do not hear from the pulpit, especially from those fat chubby preachers, of their own health issues. We cannot have a panacea for every issue out there. It is impossible.
Many in the scientific community (that are raising concerns about vaccines) are debating that atypical measles are occurring from the vaccine. I don’t have enough info. on that but why not give them a platform also? Why are we so afraid to ask the questions on the other side?
Ed, sorry if I mis-characterized but I am trying to make the point that there is nothing said about personal issues (not involving grievious sin) being taken on by elders. When you say that we are to judge in the church not in the world …. whoa, we could start a whole lot junk of non-related sin issues being misused and abused. Do not want to go there.
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A few months back we had a good talk from a young couple in our church who are RNs. Mostly the wife spoke, addressing the issue of infection control. She started out by saying she was glad that the members of the church were devoted to coming, but, if you have a fever, etc. it is better to stay home and not spread the illness. It was good to hear from people with medical knowledge which was applicable to a group setting (both work in our local hospital). I have noticed folks being more careful about sneezing, not coming to church with a fever and son.
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Ed my behavior modification is done by the Holy Spirit in my life! Thank goodness!
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I meant “and so on.”
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I do not think it is possible for a pastor to refrain from social issues.
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“Current events should be discussed in church, not just on the 6 o’clock news at home.” Ed
One problem for me is that what happens at church on a Sunday morning is not a discussion. It is a lecture with no discussion at all. It is a man with a platform.
Another problem is that the above environment often creates followers who don’t evaluate their own individual situations to know what is best for them (talking medical issues). After all, we are individuals first (including before God) and then part of the bigger picture. So, we can’t ignore our own conscience concerning medical, financial, etc. issues for the “greater good” either. The conscience works both ways.
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Bridget: I think that if your pastor won’t accept some level of disagreement, he has a problem.
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Keith I agree with your premise of people staying home with fevers. I am a big believer of giving your body the chance to recoup and not spread the germs. I am just concerned that our country is on the path of having everything inoculated to point that we don’t develop the skills of critical thinking by taking matters in our own hands and making wise health choices, instead of wanting a quick fix for every disease that comes out and manufactured by the Pharma. The community of parents have a right to ask questions and be heard.
Gary W in big agreement! What a great comment!
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“Paul was discussing meat sacrificed to other gods, and that we have the freedom to eat the meat, because we know that there is only one God, and therefore there is no guilt, but for those who believe that they can’t eat the meat, due to it being sacrificed to other gods, then don’t eat the meat when you are with them. It’s a faith issue, or should I say, a lack of faith issue that Paul was discussing, . . . “. End
Did Paul say it was a ” lack of faith issue”? Or, was it a conscience issue?
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I should have qualified my “behavioral modification” to be “non-scriptural behavioral modification”. I am righteously dinged on that one. However Westbury Baptist Church comes to mind when talking about a church whose pastor is obsessed with modifying everyone’s social behavior instead of teaching the Word of God and allowing the mature believer to use his spiritual foundation to discern what should be done in his personal situation.
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trust4himonly,
I eat healthy, watch my weight, exercise. I have MS, fibromyalgia and pre-diabetic due to genetics. Now what?
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Keith –
I’m not talking about any particular pastor, but the pulpit/pew separation in general. Most pastors I have known aren’t much up for discussion, much less disagreement. And trust me, the divide gets wider once the pastor’s wife has been informed and you are subtly on the out. The situation quickly grows to being “someone to avoid.”
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trust,
Tell my 41 year old friend who has had cancer for the past several years, has no more options for treatment and continues to get more tumors in more parts of her body. She has always been active, eats right and exercises. She will die soon and leaves behind teenage daughters.
And then there’s the person who lives to be 102, drinks double martinis and smokes cigars everyday and never has to take a pill for anything. Sometimes, things are just what they are.
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Trust4HimOnly,
personal issues (not involving grievious sin)
This is not a personal issue if it effects others. And therefore, it is a love thy neighbor issue. And if you don’t love your neighbor, it is a sin.
Then you state that you “don’t want to go there”. Where? 1 Cor 5? You don’t want to go to the Bible? Paul judged someone, without even being there. He judged someone with just “reports”. He so states that he judged.
Fat is not a contagious disease. I can’t get fat just because my neighbor is fat. So, I don’t know why obesity is being used as justification for this conversation.
Ed
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One note I’d add here is that, whether the issue is diet or vaccines or whatever, to become basically educated in the area should not be too much work for a man whose job is to be in the Word of God and prayer. I will grant, freely and cheerfully, that a lot of pastors bobble this one BADLY. However, if a man truly is apt to teach, then he ought to be able to provide some direction.
Side note; Keith, I think Bridget is primarily getting at the fact that a sermon is a lecture, not that her pastor will not listen to her. That said, I would not be surprised if she told us no, the pastor will also not listen in less formalized settings like Sunday School. I’ve seen it a time or two, and unless one’s ideas are clearly heretical (I’d say violating the theological fundamentals, the church constitution, the Trinity, the solas and such), I’d agree that if that is the case, it’s time to walk away.
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YES! ^^^^ Good scientific info from people in the know who are recommending good info that is beneficial to all, but they are not standing in a bully pulpit telling people what to do, but counseling/advising based on their factual knowledge. They are offering their expertise from member to member. It’s not top down.
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I don’t think so either, but at that point, it should be from an equal footing, not one-way directives from the pulpit.
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Bridget,
It is in the LACK OF FAITH section of the Bible. Romans 14. See also 1 Cor 8.
Ed
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Why is it necessarily a directive because it comes from the pulpit? The preacher often asks questions from the pulpit. It is us in the chairs that aren’t responding. He’s up there with his hand to his ear like he’s trying to hear something. I feel funny inner acting with the speaker unless it is to say AMEN.
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Bridget: I still think you should try to discuss areas of disagreement with your pastor. There is a lot of room for Christian Liberty. Also, I think pastors need to know that the people in the pews are thinking, not just following. i disagree with may pastor on several things, and have let him know it.
Brenda R: Genetics…it can’t be helped. 🙂
Trust4himonly: I agree we should not be subject to vaccination mania. For example, my eldest daughter did not get the HPV vaccine because she did not think she needed it. And let me short circuit a response I might get from some, no she is not rutting like an animal and pretending not to. Now that she is 18, it is up to her. Even before, it was mostly her decisions. But I think the government push was for everybody to get it, at least females.
But I have to agree in part with Ed, most vaccines are a good idea. They mostly work, and with few adverse reactions. But a 50 year old like me does not need an HPV vaccine. A lot of this comes down to common sense, i.e. weigh the risk against the benefit.
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Bully pastors don’t ask questions from the pulpit- or if they do, they are expecting a certain answer and will make sure it’s a certain answer by their bully behavior.
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Trust4HimOnly,
So, you don’t have to put on any of the “whole armor of God”? You don’t have to “resist the devil” (and he will flee)? You are not tempted? You don’t screw up? The sanctification is a process and it takes a lifetime until we die. The Holy Spirit has a job to do in us, yes, but we have to participate.
Do you know drug addicts that are Christians? Do they go to therapy, drug counseling, group, meetings, etc.? They are, with the help of the Holy Spirit, changing their behavior…but some do relapse. The Holy Spirit does not do anything without our participation. Sanctification is a process in this life, however, in regards to salvation, sanctification is a done deal, already complete.
Ed
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Ed, what about the social issue of immigration? Love your neighbor means love everybody, right, even our neighbors from the South (and East, West, etc)? Yet some Christians would say we’re not loving our own and our own go without much-needed resources, so to help those who come to our borders puts our own at risk. See what I mean? Do you want your pastor spouting off on the opposite side of your views of the immigration issue?
Ed, I’m going to school, but I’ll be looking for an answer to this on my phone 🙂
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JA: People need to stand up to bullies.
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@ChapmanEd24:
Somebody tell that to all the War on Obesity(TM) Government Nannies, starting with Michelle Obama.
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Julie Anne,
If there is a Bully Pastor in the pulpit, you need to vote with your feet.
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JA,
PS I have gained a lot of strength from this blog and a couple of others. I won’t be bullied anymore.
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bike bubba: I would probably be diagnosed as having ODD if i were in school today. It was the way i was raised. Be careful about going along with the crowd. If a bully gets away with it it won’t stop, etc.
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@JoeReed:
That was BEFORE “vaccines”, when the only “smallpox vaccine” was to infect with full-strength smallpox. Jenner in England didn’t hit upon using cowpox (the source of the word “vaccination” — MOO!) for another several decades.
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JA
what about the social issue of immigration? Love your neighbor means love everybody
Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn’t mean you have to move In with them or allow them to move in with you. It may mean that you help support someone in another country.
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Brenda – you and I know to walk with our feet. Others are still caught up in the dark world of spiritual abuse or controlling pastors and don’t know there’s a way out.
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Well that’s why there are blogs like this one and people like me who tell them about it. : )
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OK, so there are bully pastors in bully pulpits. They will continue to do their thing and we will strongly object! We object, in the hopes that some folks will wake up and find their way out of the door from these stifling ecclesial institutions.
Ed, you have hit on a number of sociological issues to consider. Yes, doing good to one’s neighbor is a very spiritual principle. Therefore, when it comes to the issue of being vaccinated against these horrid diseases, I agree, it should be a no-brainer. Lives are at risk, especially the young and the vulnerable. Just do it!
Whether the idea is sparked by a caring pastor in a rural setting, an arrogant celebrity pastor in a mega church, or a self-proclaimed prophet in a toxic church environment–if they encourage their congregants to get out and get immunized then that is a good thing, in spit of the circumstances of that particular church or that church leadership.
When any of our pastors have mentioned that folks should not drive over the speed limit since there are consequences–for everyone–there is a knowing chuckle throughout the crowd. Our lead pastor encourages and models going to the doc for a prostrate examination, for example. He has had his bout with cancer in his body the year before, so is keen to encourage folks to get checkups and to look after themselves.
When done in a healthy church setting, these things are readily received. When they are done in a toxic environment, then even good things can become invasive. That is where this issue seems to have landed in this discussion. In this instance, all things considered, I would have to side with Ed and a few others with the fact that some things are in need of being said, that is, action-encouraged, as the right and just action to take, whoever says it, and this seems to be one of them.
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@chapmaned. Our church actually runs a drug recovery center without cost to the client. It is totally about changing behavior through Christ and so far has had good success. In fact, one of our elders is a state district judge who has, in the past, made it a requirement of probation that an offender go through the program. It isn’t a 12 step program, but focuses greatly on the person’s relationship with Christ as integral to their recovery. And yes, there are relapses, even though it is a very strict program. Because we don’t charge, it is limited to 8 men at a time, but at least there is no profit motive!
It is a lot of hard work where the guys indeed have to participate with the Holy Spirit in their recovery.
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Ed what I mean about the behavior modification of the Holy Spirit is of course this includes sanctification. I am the first to believe in that! The role of elders however is of exhortation not guilt tripping and manipulation. The Holy Spirit will confirm in one to move in the direction of the Father and we have the responsibility to do so. But the elder is not the Holy Spirit so that is what I am trying to say.
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Immigration: A lot of evangelicals are trying to make this a love thy neighbour issue.
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Along with ignorance about spiritual abuse, there is much ignorance in the Christian community around the need to be informed about immunization. Ignorance and personal independence are two major problems when it comes to a sociological issue such as this.
For those interested in digging a bit more around the issue of the need for vaccinations, we heard a good program on CBC Radio on Sunday afternoon. There were Canadian and American medical experts who knew their stuff, especially the history behind immunization and the statistics available. It was well worth listening to. Getting one’s own answers is crucial–for both of these issues.
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup
Out of personal interest, I started reading up on the history around small pox. There is a lot of good history to be found here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/
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When any of our pastors have mentioned that folks should not drive over the speed limit since there are consequences–for everyone–there is a knowing chuckle throughout the crowd. The wording “Christians obey the law” is usually added.
Barb, Have you been to my church? I don’t remember you in the registry, but we have had that chuckle for that reason. We had a 94 year old man who was told not to drive, no longer had a license, still drove at twice the speed of light.
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Wendell G,
A big Bravo and Amen for your church program.
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To all of you here who either are or (like me) have been in the pastorate, can you relate to how a pastor’s job is almost impossible? Just looking at all the comments here with completely opposite views on what a pastor should or shouldn’t do, it puts pastors in a real quandary. No matter which side they take, or whether they speak up, they will get someone upset with them.
I think it would do good for us to remember that there are a lot of pastors who are simply trying to do what is best for the flock God has given them! They really don’t need all the pressure that we put on them at times. Now for the Pipers of the world, I say pressure the heck out of them, but for the many who simply want to spread God’s word and love, perhaps we should not be quite so opinionated.
That is one aspect of the pastorate I don’t miss!
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Wendell G,
I put pressure on my pastor because he reads and quotes Piper. He doesn’t do it so much anymore. Does that make me a bully? ; )
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Wendell – do you see the difference between “our church” running a drug recovery program and “our pastor tells us to vaccinate?” This is what I’m talking about: top down (pastor directive) vs church members initiating and members having choices to participate in a ministry/action.
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Julie Anne,
“A few months back we had a good talk from a young couple in our church who are RNs. Mostly the wife spoke, addressing the issue of infection control. She started out by saying she was glad that the members of the church were devoted to coming, but, if you have a fever, etc. it is better to stay home and not spread the illness. ”
Palease…You really needed an RN to tell you that? That’s like saying that if you are dirty, take a bath. It’s a no-brainer.
Ed
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Wendell G: It may just be that the experiences of people are so varied. I agree that being a pastor has to be a hard job. My pastor does not mind that i disagree with him, mostly on non-doctrinal issues, such as naturopothy, science fiction and NASA, all of which i dislike.
A lot of the folks on here have been in churches where one could not disagree on anything.
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You are right Julie Anne…..people are not coerced, manipulated, or bullied into the drug recovery program. They come by choice.
Ed, of course i believe in sanctification- although I do not believe that the elder or pastor acts in the place of the Holy Spirit. That is what I meant to imply. I know that I have to listen and then obey. I believe in co-laboring with Christ. Is it not Christ who ultimately changes us (behavior modification) when we listen and obey?
I just want to say Jesus is my Handler not the pastor.
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“it’s a no brainer”
Ed, not everyone is endowed with as much common sense as you.
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Julie Anne,
I gotta go in a few for a few hours, but you had asked:
“Ed, what about the social issue of immigration”
What about it? Is breaking the law a sin? Are we a sovereign nation?
Do terrorists seek out our vulnerabilities? Is it in our Constitution for our government to protect it’s citizens?
Do we have laws that permit LEGAL immigration? What SHOULD the penalty be for breaking our laws by people who get here illegally?
Did God intend for Israel to defend it’s borders? Why does any nation have borders? Who came up with the idea for borders to begin with? Should I be able to travel to Syria freely, without a passport and visa?
Yes, this issue needs to be addressed in church, too, by the preacher in the pulpit. Why? Because it would be based on our own stupidity that this nation gets hit by another terrorist attack. If Mexicans want to come here to pick apples in the Yakima Valley, get a legal document, and stop calling them “undocumented worker”. What is this, “Oops, I left my document back in Mexico, can I live here anyway?”
Borders were meant to be protected, and God has no problem with that. Gotta Go!!
Does anybody know what the Bible has to say about social issues, or are we really that dumb? Romans 9 is not the only topic in the Bible!!
Note: The Romans 9 reference is only for those who knows why I am referencing it. For others, just ignore.
Ed
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Oh my word, Ed. (That’s all I can type at a stoplight!)
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trust4himonly,
I’m getting the impression that you really don’t know what the elder in the church is really supposed to be all about. No, he is not your holy spirit, you are right about that. But you completely are to “obey” him. Why? Because he knows what he is talking about, BASED ON EXPERIENCE. He’s “lived life”. That is what an elder is. He has WISDOM. An elder does not want you to screw up, and therefore, he is to be respected by you, and from what I hear all over the place on the blog is such a major lack of respect for preachers and elders, and i wish I knew where that was coming from.
Ed
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Romans 14 is about more than eating meat and is not about a lack of faith, but about how we are to interact with one another.
“14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”
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Ed: But we are under no obligation to obey an elder in matters of Christian Liberty. So, although i think NASA is a waste of money and my pastor likes NASA, it is within my Christian Liberty not to obey him. Of course he would never impose a pro-NASA view on me, but that is the best illustration I could come up with.
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Ed – good grief……….
by your tone I am glad I am out of the church building and not under an elder.
This is exactly where I have disagreement and will stop here.
Who is exactly an elder? One with a PhD and over a specific church building?
I always looked to older wiser men who acted like servants then a leader. These are the ones who got my respect. What good did an elder or pastor do me in the 21st century except for a sermon that I have heard 1000 times sitting in a pew? I never got a call or friendship from a pastor. And I never got love. No what I did get was a list of rules and regular duties in the nursery.
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This seems to refer to the conscience, not faith, and it is about how we treat others.
1 Corinthians
8 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.[a]
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.”
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Keith, is this the ODD you’re referring to?
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/definition/con-20024559
I might have also been so diagnosed. Hopefully not too many here picked it out! :^)
I personally agree, by the way, that immigration can, and ought to, also be phrased as a “love thy neighbor” issue. The trick is to answer the questions well. Is loving your neighbor loving them when they’re here, or somehow helping them in their native country? What about diseases/criminality that we could inadvertently import to our country–or export to theirs?
Not gonna give my answers, but the questions are fascinating.
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Ed, completely obeying elders can get abused wives harmed when they are told to remain with their husbands and submit. Come on, you’re at a spiritual abuse blog.
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Also, Ed stole my thunder (or drizzle, probably more accurately) about the response when the RNs said “please don’t come to church if you’re sick”. Do we really need a medical professional to tell us what our culture has known since Louis Pasteur discovered bacterial and viral contagion around 1865?
Apparently that is the case, I guess, but my goodness, that’s depressing. I have to wonder if some people yet judge me because I’ve missed a couple of funerals because I was sick as a dog (no offense to dogs of course). And per my suspected ODD, I don’t care. :^)
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bike bubba: Yes, that is it. I am actually a strong rule follower, but am suspicious of others, especially in a group setting.
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I do not believe that the American church is anywhere the NT church and could go over a laundry list of practices associated with the church today that are basically amoral and have nothing to do with our spirituality. One is what was discussed here and tithing, paying pastors salaries, buildings, sitting in pews just gaping at someone talking instead of discussing together as a community;
sunday schools, programs and conferences,……..etc..
Now I am not going to look down on anyone who does it, but please don’t measure my own spirituality against your version.
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Julie Anne,
You are sooooo right about that one. We should look to our elders who have wisdom in Christ. Church elders like any other position or job has abusers within and they don’t mind sending you back with an abusive husband. Watch out for the red flags. Been there and done that and not going back no more.
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