***
Do Christians have a responsibility to vaccinate their children? Is this a matter of religious liberty? Should Christian leaders use their platform to influence us in this health matter?
***
It seems that we have been getting barraged with religious leaders trying to convince us one way or the other on the recent vaccine issue in the news as Measles has made a comeback with a recent outbreak. I was surprised to see numerous tweets from religious leaders and wondered what you thought about this.
Below are just some of the tweets and articles, including some excerpts I have found.
And Now a Brief Word on Vaccines – by Doug Wilson
The claim I am making here is very limited. If a person has decided personal convictions about the contagious disease he is carrying, the society in which he lives has an equal right to have decided and contrary convictions about that same contagious disease he has. And if there is an outbreak of such a disease, and the government quarantines everyone who is not vaccinated, requiring them to stay at home, the name for this is prudence, not tyranny.
***
***
***
3 reasons Christians should vaccinate with confidence by Justin Smith of ERLC (The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission)
In the midst of all the confusion about vaccines, I believe that Christians don’t have to be the ones who are confused. We can use the gift of vaccines with confidence knowing that, ultimately, our lives and our health are in the hands of our Father.
Cripplegate is blog with 4 contributors who seem to have connections with John MacArthur’s seminary/church. This article was posted on Cripplegate: Anti-vaxxers and epistemological narcissism
Take note at how they use scripture to justify vaccinating:
- Vaccines are a form of common grace that have dramatically changed the world for the better (Gen 3:18
; Ps 145:9-16; Matt 5:44-45; Acts 14:16-17). Participating in the blessings of common grace in a post-Babel society means that we bond together as nations, and we use common grace to make quality of life better (Gen 9:6, 2 Kings 12:2, Luke 6:33). We work, we marry, and we protect each other. A basic way to do that is to be vaccinated against diseases that plague the cultures that don’t vaccinate.
- Thus, being vaccinated is a form of loving your neighbor (Lev 19:18; Matt 5:43,Rom 13:8-10, Jas 2:8). Knowing that some are too little, too young, or too weak to be vaccinated, we protect the weak by being vaccinated.
The last paragraph admits this is gray area which is bizarre because if it truly is a gray area, can you really use scripture to 100% back up your stance?
I recognize that this is a Christian gray-area, and it goes beyond what is written to say that a person is sinning by being an anti-vaxxer. But it does not go beyond what is written to appeal to believer’s discernment: don’t undo one of society’s crowning scientific advancements because of epistemological narcissism.
Rev. Paul Brandeis Raushenbush, Executive Religion Editor for the Huffington Post posted an article and a podcast at Huffington post. (The podcast will start immediately as soon as you open the page, but you can turn it off and read the article: Love Thy Neighbor: Vaccinate (All Together Podcast). Dr. Claire McCarthy, a pediatrician at Boston Children’s hospital, Dr. Robert Klitzman, professor and Director of the Bioethics Program at Columbia School of Public Health, and Sally Steenland, Director of the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative at the Center for American Progress, were on the podcast and discussed why this is not a religious liberty issue. Paul concludes:
Jesus commands to love our neighbor as ourselves. This gets to the heart of the vaccination issue. It’s not just about loving your own family. It is also about caring for the well-being of your neighbors and your community. Everyone should vaccinate their children as an act of love.
In this case, we have a reverend with a highly visible position in public media using his platform to push his agenda. Is this okay?
Pat Robertson Says He’s Against Vaccination Mandates:
I’m sure that there’s some serious consequences to measles, and perhaps vaccinations is the answer, but I don’t think any parent should be forced by the government to vaccinate.
https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/562272594419015681
***
If I looked longer, I’m sure I could find even more articles from religious leaders. I have some questions:
Is it a religious leader’s responsibility to inform private citizens about their views on immunizations?
At what point do religious leaders cross the line when it comes to health concerns and using their position of authority/celebrity-ism to influence?
How much credence do we give to religious leaders on issues of health?
As you can see above, some say this is a gray area or a religious liberty area, where others say it is not. Do you think we can discuss this topic, specifically the bolded questions without getting personal and debating the pros/cons of vaccines? Please exercise caution when commenting. I specifically would like to keep it to the subject of Christian leaders pushing their health agendas using their public platforms.
photo credit: Flu Vaccination Grippe via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
At first I thought your title asked about the propriety of pastors stating their vacation preferences. Now I’ll go back and read the post.
LikeLiked by 4 people
This issue isn’t related to our status as Christians. I have an opinion about vaccination but it honestly does not need the support of the friendly neighborhood christian flag in the corner of the page.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hmm. State their beliefs? Fine. State it as dogma? Not so much. Just like anything in personal responsibility, there are consequences to both choices and parents must be willing to face those consequences. If you do vaccinate your kids, you run the (small) risk of unwanted side effects. If you don’t, you run the risk of them getting some very nasty diseases from others who are unvaccinated and can then spread it to others.
My daughter was a Special Ed teacher in an autism unit and she, (like me) does not believe in a vaccination/autism link, but some of the parents of her students do. She respects their decision, but also will not allow any of those unvaccinated children around her baby. To her, the risk of a possibly deadly disease trumps everything else. She is not disrespectful to them, but she is firm on it, so there are consequences both ways.
Besides, has anyone noticed that these recent measles outbreaks have happened shortly after the government started letting (some say encouraging) children from Mexico, Central and South America to come into the US with impunity? A large number of those kids are unvaccinated, and whether or not you agree with their entering the country, it has at least exacerbated the problem of disease in this country.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I Liken Preachers giving medical advice to Richard Dawkins giving advice to people about faith and belief in God. Preachers are not medical experts and Richard Dawkins is not a Theologian!!!!!! So no preachers should not be giving advice regarding vaccination.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Being a person who the vaccine has never worked for, I would like to see everyone get the vaccinations. I have had repeat vaccinations when I was a child and with each pregnancy and tests still show that I am not immune. I personally don’t want to get the measles. It doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun to me. I would prefer a small poke to full blown disease.
I believe this to be an issue for the Public Health Department and not so much a religious thing. But, on the other hand, the more people saying make sure you and your kids are vaccinated there is a better chance of not seeing an epidemic.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Brenda – but what about Christian leaders telling you what you should do and sometimes basing it on Scripture? (I’m trying really hard to not let this conversation get personal, but ask if leaders are crossing the line into personal affairs.)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Q: Is it a religious leader’s responsibility to inform private citizens about their views on immunizations?
A: Responsibility, no. Prerogative, yes. Kind of like urging people to pay their taxes, help their neighbors, and generally be conscientious and responsible citizens.
Q: At what point do religious leaders cross the line when it comes to health concerns and using their position of authority/celebrity-ism to influence?
A: When they begin to push self aggrandizing, private agendas, for one.
Q: How much credence do we give to religious leaders on issues of health?
A1: Not nearly as much as we would give an M.D. in questions relating to faith, especially if the M.D. has long, fruit-producing, experience in the faith.
A2: Depending on their doctrinal point of view, a good deal more credence then they deserve in matters of faith.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Gary, I’m looking at your formatting and thinking I could use that for a class project – ha! Thanks 🙂 Great responses, btw.
LikeLike
My POV is probably in the minority, but so many families I know who do not vaccinate come from fundamentalist, homeschooling backgrounds. I get upset when they chose not to vaccinate based on narrow and unproven opinions. Maybe if they were exposed to another side of the argument by a respected church leader, it may allow them to make a more informed decision. My main concern is the risk their unvaccinated children may pose to infants who are not old enough to be vaccinated and pregnant women. We do live a society and our personal choices can have an unsafe impact on others.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I like Wendell’s point. If indeed a pastor ought to make the Word of God and its command to love in word and deed relevant to the flock, I can see speaking up about vaccination, especially if the flock is being misled by people.
The trick is to get it right–hey, figure out how to talk up a doctor or other expert in vaccination theory, get the explanation right, and then (my guess) watch the flock flock to get vaccinated, probably including older parishioners who missed MMR because they predate it. If people understand the science a little bit, I don’t think they’ll need the law to take the (small) risk of vaccination.
Along the same lines,a coworker once asked me if helmets were required for bicycling. My response was that I didn’t know, but for my part, if my head should meet a tree or the road, I’d sure prefer to have a good helmet take the initial blow instead of my skull. Laws of physics and laws of medicine trump law of man any day. :^)
LikeLike
Religious leaders need to stay focused on their task at hand, that being ministry. Just because they have a voice in the pulpit on a regular basis, they think we would like to hear their voices ad finitum. It is interesting how they misuse the phrase, ‘I believe’ to begin a statement. It is perhaps in hopes that we will think that they have given certain topics a lot of research and speak with concise well thought out comments. It would be good for all of us if they would sit, be quiet, and listen. And not be allowed to have a final comment.
LikeLike
I figure that’s yet another case of “If all you have is a SCRIPTURE hammer…”
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m thinking these guys are commenting on an area outside their expertise. That’s all fine and dandy, I guess, unless they are leveraging their religious authority to influence people’s choices in matters of medical concern, which they are not qualified to address.
And I can’t quite help but remember that Religious Dude who said something about dead babies embedded in the wombs of women who used the pill. So the whole thing makes me kind of nervous.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think they can speak out on this just as with any other public health or social wellbeing issue. If they can speak on violence, they can speak on health. And I think they can speak on all that and more. As to whether what they say squares with Scripture, that’s for the listeners to decide.
On the Cripplegate crowd, that blog was started by people not only affiliated with John Macarthur but employed by him. I don’t know if any of them are still on his organization’s payroll because I stopped reading them when they insisted in one post (and follow-up comments) that it’s ungodly to help the poor unless the help is part of an evangelistic effort to convert the poor. (I wrote about their poor understanding of the doctrine of helps.)
LikeLiked by 2 people
I chuckled a little when I saw the array of Reverends giving advice. It is almost as if each perceived segment of the theological spectrum was considered, i.e. gentry liberal Raushenbush, the SBC, (two Baptists in a row!) Pat Robertson ( is he also some kind of Baptist/Pentecostal blend?), etc.
I come down in the “No” category. It is too personal an issue to make a blanket statement about. Only those who are to be vaccinated have sufficient information to make the choice. To turn it into a matter of divine mandate is wrong, because neither the ERLC nor the well-heeled at Princeton know what is best for a child in rural Virginia or a retiree in Arizona.
It is kind of funny/egotistical for the reverends to think people should (as opposed to do) listen to them on this issue. To the extent that people do listen to them, the advice should be to get informed and make a prayerful decision.
LikeLike
Do they have a “right” to speak out on the issue? Certainly. Is it a good idea? Often not, if the statement is a dogmatic you must get vaccinated, or you must not get vaccinated.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I believe religious leaders need to stay far away from endorsing either side of the vaccination debate. Sharing an opinion is one thing, but we’ve all seen how little responsibility they take for their directives when the outcome goes horribly wrong.
Children are maimed and, sometimes, die as a result of vaccinations. It’s a minority, but it DOES happen. Who want that to be their child? Children are also maimed, and, sometimes, die from lack of immunizations. Do you know of any “pastor” who accepts responsibility when a child is hurt from a parent following their advice? Yeah, me neither. Let the parents who have to live with the decision make that call.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Our former cult was staunchly against vaccinations. I didn’t question it until my four children nine and under (at that time) came down with pertussis. Most of the kids in the cult ended up getting it. A lot of the adults probably did too, only the symptoms are very different for an adult. (Most babies that are too young to get their first shots catch it from an adult who is unaware of what they’ve got.)
My kids are vaccinated now.
LikeLike
BTDT: I like your comment “Do you know of any pastor who accepts responsibility…”
I think this really states the problem. They say it, but ultimately families and individuals are affected, not them.
LikeLike
To quote a bunch of Bible verses in support of your opinion on something controversial, but then state that this is a gray area, I agree is confusing. I don’t see anything wrong with a religious leader giving an opinion on something not addressed by Scripture (i.e. Pope Francis on breastfeeding), as long as they aren’t making it the equivalent of Holy Writ.
LikeLike
JA: I personally accept the “Love thy neighbour” argument for myself. But again, all the information necessary to determine whether this is true for others/universally true is not available to the reverend. The alternative could simply be that depending on the circumstances the principle applies.
LikeLike
Tim: Sorry to show my Lutheran ignorance of evangelicals, but what is Cripplegate?
LikeLike
Cripplegate’s one of the websites Julie mentioned in her post up there.
LikeLike
Oh, i see, anti-vaxxers etc. Thanks!
LikeLike
OK, I read the link. Sorry to be so out to lunch. Hope i am not irritating anyone.
LikeLike
What concerns me is that Christian leaders, with no medical background, are jumping onto the media frenzy about vaccines, as if in a desperate attempt to appear relevant. I’m finding very little substance in what they are saying, but more polarization, as if all parents must be either 100% for every single vaccine out there, or must be some misinformed anti-vaxxer — and now we get to question their godliness as well.
I wrote a blog post on the topic (http://rebeccaprewett.com/2015/02/08/i-weigh-in-about-vaccines/) to express a “middle ground” that is not being acknowledged in the debate.
There is a lot of misinformation being propagated. I would encourage parents to do a little research on their own before making any vaccine decisions, and before making blanket statements against parents who are willing to make informed decisions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Keith,
I don’t think you are being irritating. But the thought of lunch made me hungry. : )
What happened to kids having to be vaccinated prior to going to school or is that not the law in all states?
LikeLiked by 1 person
i read the Cripplegate article and the comments. I did not like the tone of the article, but maybe I am not reading it objectively. Some of the commenters swing back pretty hard.
Brenda R.: Thanks, but I think I do irritate some people. In Virginia, schools still require all shots. We got our children vaccinated for everything, but on a slightly later schedule than if they were in public school.
rrprewett: You had a scary experience!
LikeLike
My automatic response is to enter a discourse on why I am glad I was never vaccinated…but I will restrain myself. Personally, I have never experienced a church setting where the pastor’s opinion was not taken as dogma. I absolutely believe in free speech for everyone, but I do not believe in a leader creating a pattern of making statements about everything. In my experience of churches, every time there is a news story, a bill in congress, an upcoming vote, or a fashion trend, the man in the pulpit makes sure that everyone knows exactly what he thinks; then those who toe the line make sure to snub those who do not. This is absolutely wrong on so many levels. Churches should not be cliquish circles where everyone agrees on everything–an environment like that produces brain-deadness of the worst sort. So yes, I believe that pastors are free to say what they like, but it should be clear in all cases that parishioners are free to disagree, live their own lives, and experience the effects of their own decisions.
Another pet peeve of mine that I see here is pastors/leaders/Christian-celebs stating their opinion, then following it with several scripture references in parentheses. This was a habit of mine when I was about 15 and writing (what I thought were) The Epic Theological Papers. It is an immature, uppity attitude that writes like this, and usually the scripture references don’t even make sense in reference to the subject in question. Just because the bible sometimes uses the same words that you use, doesn’t mean that you are right.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Song of a River: Did you ever express dissent to your pastor(s)?
LikeLike
OK, so, when I was a kid, I got vaccinated. NO BIG DEAL. I don’t even remember it. All I know, is that it leaves an indent in your skin for a life time. NO BIG DEAL. In addition, after I got my orders to Japan, the navy MADE ME (and I still wasn’t complaining) get additional vaccines. I had no choice. Well, actually, I had a choice, if I didn’t want to be in the navy. NO BIG DEAL.
So, my first question is, why are people having a debate about this? I see this as a community issue, and we Christians live in a community of all people, Christian or not. Should Preachers preach on this? ABSOLUTELY, without a doubt. Why? Protect OTHER PEOPLES lives, not just our own. Our own life is not the end result, if we get the disease. Other people can get it if we get it.
I’m wondering when vaccinations became optional to begin with.
My second question is: Where in the heck is the Surgeon General? Who is the Surgeon General? OK, so we all know that Smoking Causes Cancer. Is that the only thing that the Surgeon General is good for?
And I do think that it is indeed appropriate for any and all preachers of all faiths to weigh in on the matter. Why? Because we are ALSO CITIZENS of the United States of America. The unbelievers are not the only ones who live in this country. Christians have a right to weigh in as well.
No, this is not a Christian issue, this is a human issue, and this is a Love Thy Neighbor issue, Love your enemies issue, just a love issue.
What if one of us got the measles? It is contagious. How would we feel if we gave that disease to someone else, anyone else. Guilt? I think Pat Robertson is wrong, whatever his stance is. If it is a FREEDOM issue with Pat Robertson, I’d respond with, “We have the freedom to commit murder, too. But there are consequences to our freedom.”
Ed
LikeLiked by 1 person
Keith,
Have you ever met anyone who isn’t irritating at some point?
LikeLike
Ed: I think part of what drives this is that when people are lied to about one thing by government, they lose trust in government. If the surgeon general tells me to do something, it is hard not to associate her with her administration. If the current surgeon general said everyone needs to get the HPV vaccine, I would be less likely to get it, rather than more.
LikeLiked by 1 person
i just read that Dr. Murthy is urging parents to vaccinate.
LikeLike
Ed,
“We have the freedom to commit murder, too. But there are consequences to our freedom.”
True. We should be using our freedom for good. If I contact measles, I am going to stay away from other people. I had my children vaccinated like clockwork on the schedule that was recommended. I didn’t think twice about it. It was a non-issue. I didn’t want them sick or anyone else.
LikeLike
I think there are some excellent comments here regarding the way The Sheep tend to take The Pastor’s word as law, in this case with regard to vaccination. And in truth, many of them kind of intend it that way – what happens when you disagree?
I have three kids, two of whom have been adversely affected by vaccines. They are all partially vaccinated, and just our own anecdotal story: the only childhood disease any of them has had has been whooping cough…against which they are all fully vaccinated. Frustrating. The last thing I need is for a bunch of non-experts out there telling me I’m only godly if I do (or don’t do) A, B, or C regarding health issues. It’s similar to how I feel about the camp that forcefully teaches that most mental illness only needs a good dose of the Bible, and a better attitude.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ed, vaccination has always been optional for those with religious objections, and over the past few decades, it’s been optional for those with “sincerely held moral and spiritual” objections, too. And I got a kick out of your comment–in a good way.
I would agree with Keith as well that the rate of non-vaccination has risen as Americans trust their government less. I believe it’s strongest among the far right (including many homeschoolers) and the far left/hippies. And I’m a homeschooler who spent over a decade in Boulder, so I kinda-sorta fit in both camps, except for the fact that my kids have had their vaccinations.
LikeLike
Brenda,
I agree, this is a non-issue.
Keith,
I don’t see the government in that way. I used to work for the government, hence the US Navy.
I had to get Anthrax shots just by being in the Persian Gulf after the first gulf war. NO BIG DEAL. It was GOVERNMENT ordered. We had no choice. If we refused, we would have been kicked out. I don’t care what party is in the office in that regard. If it is a health issue, that goes across party lines.
If it backfires, and I die, NO BIG DEAL…I get to go to heaven just that much quicker. NO BIG DEAL. This life is just a vapor. We seem to be so focused on THIS LIFE that we seem to forget the NEXT LIFE. This life isn’t the end of our existence. The next life is disease free. That’s what I try to focus on much more than this life.
Ed
LikeLike
Bike Bubba,
Well, I was too young to even remember when I got vaccinated as a child entering kindergarten. I had no religious objections. How could I? I was, what, 5 in 1969? So, my parents spoke for me at that age, I suppose. My parents obviously had no religious objections. As a matter of fact, I had no idea about religious objections to ANYTHING until I was in my 30’s. I never knew vaccinations was a religious issue, I always thought it was a human race issue. Little do I know.
Ed
LikeLike
You guys are getting personal.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Persephone,
I suppose that I would respond to you is that if a DOCTOR states that your children should not get vaccinated due to____________________fill in blank, then that would be fine. But I do not find a “just because I don’t want them to get vaccinated” is not fine. It puts other people’s lives in danger.
The purpose of vaccines is to SAVE lives, not kill lives. Yes, people have adverse effects from them. However, what is the percentage? Your situation is not the norm.
Ed
LikeLike
Ed: As you might recall, i was in the Army, and nobody trusts the Army, especially the dogfaces themselves! I got a bunch of shots at Ft Ord. Dengue fever, black water fever, etc. maybe I have some of the names wrong, but they stuck us pretty good. It was a condition of employment, and I did not quarrel with that. In truth, i actually liked and trusted most of the military medical personnel/
As regards the surgeon general, i don’t know her, she has never examined me or my family. I certainly don’t trust her. But my family doctor is a different story, and there are plenty of resources to get informed. I am not defending the anti-vaxxers, but trying to explain them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
JA: I am fine with Ed. He has not said anything to offend me.
LikeLike
I think Pat Robertson is a bigger concern than Raushenbush, or the ERLC. He has a big audience.
LikeLike
Persephone: Did you have any adverse reaction to vaccines yourself growing up? Are your children OK now?
LikeLike
@Keith Blankenship: I was 20 when I left the cult-church I was raised in, and at that point, having been raised as a stay-at-home-daughter under heavily patriarchal teachings, I had no say. I lived at home because I wasn’t allowed to leave, and if I had expressed any dissent, I would have been punished by loss of freedoms like driving and talking on the phone. So no, I never expressed any dissent. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Keith,
I was in the Navy for about 15 years. I loved the navy, and never badmouthed the navy, so I don’t have a mistrust of the government that others do. The Navy was extremely good to me. Our Medical was adjacent to my office, so I knew a lot of the corpsmen on a professional level. I handled their pay. We have a lot of professionalism in the US Military. So, if the government orders us to get vaccinated, I do not hesitate. It’s one of those, “Thank you sir, may I have another” routine.
Ed
LikeLike
Keith – Sorry, my comment was brief and not very clear. I was at a stoplight and had to respond quickly.
This discussion has gotten off track. The topic is not whether or not vaccines are good or not – – – or whether you approve of them or not. The topic is about Christian leaders telling you their opinions about such matters. I really don’t want this to be about the specific vaccination debate at all. That’s why I said the following at the bottom of the post:
So, Ed, are you okay with Pat Robertson using his soapbox to spout off? (I know you aren’t because you don’t like where he stands.) Is it that you are only okay with people using their soapbox if they agree with your stance? If so, I’m trying to have discussion beyond that.
Do you see how a spiritual leader could twist scripture to promote their agenda? Do you see how a spiritual leader could convince someone to go against their doctor’s advice? Cripplegate and Huffington Post articles were very pro-vaccines. Cripplegate used verses to back up what they were trying to promote. Let’s say someone in their church had a child with a compromised immune system because of a horrific disease and they heard this message and yet were trying to do the right thing spiritually. Can you see how someone would say, “I’m going to vax (or not vax) my kid because I’m going to be obedient to God’s Word first and foremost (based on what my pastor/church leader taught me).” Do you see how spiritual leaders can put people in harm’s way with their health advice?
Someone earlier mentioned Kevin Swanson and the embedded fetuses – that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
LikeLiked by 1 person
rrprewett – I just noticed your name and wonder if we were connected waaaaay back in the day in the PHS forum on AOL?
LikeLike
Song of a River:
That is also my experience. Great comment and thank you for sharing your experience. Unless you haven’t experienced someone who tries to control how you vote, how you think about particular news stories, etc, hearing a topic like this might not mean much.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Yup, that’s me. I like to think I have since grown into a kinder, gentler, wiser version of my former self.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is one practical area where I think theologians can and should at least encourage their congregants to consider the implications of their beliefs, if not properly researched, even if they still come to a conclusion with which I disagree.
Basically, Christians should seek wisdom in all areas and should consider that if they take a viewpoint on vaccines that is based on conspiracy theories, junk science, hokey unproven alternative medicine, and all around paranoia, that they may then discredit themselves when speaking on spiritual matters as just being a paranoid wacko. “I think the government is poisoning me and Big Pharm is making up lies for profit. I have nothing to back up that assertion, so let’s switch to talking about how I believe God made himself to be a man, and died on a cross, rose from the dead, and is coming back one day in the clouds. And watch your back, cause the beast and the false prophet are coming too.” If I’m an unbeliever, all I see is a tinfoil hat.
LikeLike
Julie Anne,
Sorry about moving in the direction of getting personal…
Having said that, YES, I have no problems with Pat Robertson weighing in on the issue. There is NO PROBLEM, in my opinion, of having the opposition stating what he thinks about the matter. However, if it is turns into a “YOUR GOING TO HELL” if you do or don’t, then he would be off track, but he has the right as an American Citizen of speaking his mind, just like all Americans. We do not give up our citizenship as Americans just because we go to church x or church y down the street, knowing full and well that church y disagrees with church x.
Ed
LikeLiked by 1 person
But I wholeheartedly believe that, in the search for relevance, pastors need not feel obligated to comment all of the time. We don’t always need their opinion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Larry,
You had said:
“Basically, Christians should seek wisdom in all areas”
My response:
Back in the day, this issue was not a “seek wisdom” issue. Back in the day, it was a “no-brainer” issue. If you didn’t get vaccinated, you would die. There was no such thing as a “Well, let’s weigh the options here…If I get vaccinated, I live, if I don’t I die…hmmm…decisions, decisions, I just can’t decide…let’s flip a coin.”
Ed
LikeLike
I think it is just hard to make a blanket statement, because 1) At least when a person is not in the military, the person owns his body 2) knowledge necessary for the pastor to make the decision for everyone is not in the pastor’s possession.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ll try and help things get back on track–especially as I’m often guilty of the opposite. To reiterate, my position is that (a) pastors can and should comment on issues related to Biblical issues like vaccination. As others have noted, if they work and don’t create a lot of side effects, it’s a clear example of “love they neighbor”. On the flip side, they (b) ought to get reasonably right. That doesn’t mean that they have to get a degree in public health, medicine or epidemiology, but they ought to be able to point to the work of those who do and say clearly “given that the evidence points to X, ‘love thy neighbor’ can be implemented by doing Y.”
And yes, there are chances for abuse of this position, no bones about it. But that has to do with the pastor’s willingness to learn the issues, not with his responsibility to shepherd the flock.
(and side note, sort of; shepherds lead the sheep. they do not drive them unless they want them to go all over. Just ask the shepherds on the Umatilla reservation near Pendleton. I am wearing their work right now. thank you!)
LikeLike
A few people have brought up a very good point…the point is that RELIGION teaches that GOVERNMENT is EVIL, and it is for THAT REASON that some religious people is against anything that the government states, even if it is good for you.
I think that is the major issue of this whole thing.
In that regard, knowing our countries FOUNDING, I’m having a hard time coming to grips that RELIGION teaches that our government is evil, which is also an originating factor of NOT OBEYING magistrates, as our bible states to obey, by using “religious objections”.
Something there smells awful. Where did the teaching of “Government is Evil” in the church’s come from? No wonder we have issues with vaccines being discussed in church’s. We still have church’s preaching that the government is evil, when our government is WE THE PEOPLE. It boils down to WE THE PEOPLE are evil. Really?
Ed
LikeLike
Don’t worry, Rebecca, I just recognize your name but don’t remember much about you at all. (I think you may have been a moderator.) Maybe I could be reminded if we started chatting. Those were crazy days in which the Homeschool Movement was really gaining momentum and moms were getting sucked into the frenzy.
I know Ed and others can attest that they have seen my views change on the blog. It’s all part of the journey, isn’t it?
LikeLiked by 4 people
@ChapmanED24:
The US has no Surgeon General. The office is vacant, and all attempts to confirm a new Surgeon General since the office went vacant have been stalled by the Dem-vs-GOP/Congress-vs-Obama gridlock. “DID NOT!” “DID SO!” “DID NOT!” “DID SO!” “DID NOT!” “DID SO!”…
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Larry:
I’m a believer and if you unloaded that line on me, all I’d see would be a tinfoil hat. All that’s missing is a “No, I’m not a conspiracy crackhead.”
LikeLike
Historically, there is some precedent. Jonathan Edwards (mid 1700’s, New England) got a smallpox vaccine to show his congregation it was safe and encourage them to also get it, for the sake of their health.
He died as a result of it.
LikeLike
It is always an abuse of platform and Scripture to turn a non-moral thing into a moral issue while using Bible verses to slam people’s decision-making. Seems to me that we need to be innoculated against those who use God’s Word as a weapon in their arsenal of absolutisms. My eyebrows actually raised over the fact that these guys seriously believe that God cares about vaccinations.
LikeLiked by 3 people
I’m leaning more toward, No, a pastor or preacher should not use the pulpit or his/her internet influence to preach or write about views on vaccinating. I think that this issue is a personal medical issue that should be decided between a family and their doctor. That being said, I also understand that that this is a societal issue and that the church can be a positive influence on society (love your neighbor thoughts here).
Julie Anne – You seriously found nothing from Piper on the issue? I think you need to do a little bit more research. I’m sure he’s said something about it! 😉
LikeLiked by 2 people
Just because something is a gray area doesn’t mean we shouldn’t worry about it or ought to ignore it. It means we have the responsibility to think through it, and as biblically as we know how. And insofar as a pastor helps his congregation to think through an issue, that’s a good thing. He is, after all, primarily paid to think through things. If everything were simple, and black and white, we’d only need pastors to be our entertainment. I think some may have gotten that memo. For another time though 🙂
The problem is when the desire to be on the cutting edge of some societal dilemma offers some measure of celebrity, there will always be a “supply” for that “demand.” And that’s really frustrating and sad.
LikeLike
I didn’t look up Piper, Kathi, but if there is a tragic outcome either due to vaccinating or non-vaccinating, I can assure you that he is thinking about how glorious it is that we can know our sin in such an intimate way.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Where does the Holy Spirit fit into this? And why are not pew sitters capable of coming up with their own conclusions regarding their health without their pastor’s input (how many pastors are also medical doctors, btw).
LikeLike
I have read extensively at the Cripplegate blog. As far as I have noted previously, they rarely close the comment thread. Jesse’s article is now closed. And they deleted all of the “redundant” comments. I view this as controlling and a lack of willingness to take responsibility for what he wrote. I also found the article in question to be incredibly ignorant and contradictory, as well as arrogant and unloving.
LikeLike
Joyelle,
You had said:
“My eyebrows actually raised over the fact that these guys seriously believe that God cares about vaccinations.”
I’m having a hard time with that one, because a doctor is a profession, and God is not against doctors.
Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17,
…They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick…
Genesis 50:2
And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel (JACOB).
Then there is this:
Mark 5:25-27
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
——-
This is why I am having a hard time with people who say that we should “seek biblical wisdom”, blah, blah.
Seems to me, it’s already there, that Jesus expects us to use “common sense”, with no need for “spiritual wisdom”.
Ed
LikeLike
Joyelle – I just skimmed through the comments and it looks like there was quite a bit of push back. I’m surprised they left it open for so long!
LikeLike
Joe Reed,
How many people’s lives were saved by the small pox vaccine?
Ed
LikeLike
Measles are awful,painful, and potentially deadly:
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/02/01/new-case-of-measles-reported-at-santa-monica-infant-toddler-center/
LikeLiked by 2 people
JA –
Where does the Holy Spirit fit into this?
We may yet find out! Watch for a charismatic celebrity to have a “revelation,” a mystic celebrity to have a “burden,” and a reformed one to have an “insight,” all in the name and by the power of the Spirit
And why are not pew sitters capable of coming up with their own conclusions regarding their health without their pastor’s input (how many pastors are also medical doctors, btw).
That’s a loaded question! One of the reasons so many people blindly follow celebrity is because they just don’t take time and effort to think. So they trust – in whoever happens to be in vogue at the time. Also, some pastors are arrogant enough to think their congregations couldn’t tie their shoes without their help. And while most pastors have little to no formal medical training, thanks to the day in which we live, it is possible with enough time, ambition, and Internet data, to at least be able to understand the issues.
To Ed, because of the fact that smallpox has been eliminated, presumably because of the vaccination, theoretically it’s still saving lives in a sense, yes?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi Ed,
I didn’t say anything against doctors, or whether or not God is opposed to doctors. Of course He is not opposed to doctors– He is only opposed to things that are clearly sinful. Sinful, immoral issues are carefully outlined in Scripture. My beef is with those who make a moral sinful or righteous issue out of the choice the vaccinate or not vaccinate
LikeLiked by 2 people
Joyelle-
I could not disagree with you more.
Playing “Russian roulette” with other people’s lives is wrong. It’s not a matter of personal choice.
Childhood diseases do not stop at your door and ask what your preference is. They don’t stop your child from coming home with the disease and passing it on to a baby that is not old enough to be vaccinated.
It happened in my backyard when I was living on the east coast.
http://6abc.com/health/1991-the-philly-measles-outbreak-that-killed-9-children-/504818/
LikeLike
Sorry, meant to add more.
Read the link ,
9 children dead. hundreds sickened, and it was all 100% preventable.
Having the ability to prevent harm, yet choosing to not do so ( especially when children are involved), is my #1 definition of evil.
LikeLike
Joyelle,
I echo Christianagnostic in this, and I also made mention of this above, that this doesn’t just effect our own self, but if our own self gets something that is preventable to begin with, and we give it to someone else, THAT should cause GUILT in our own mind, and in that sense, it is a sin. Anything that causes guilt is a sin, and it is indeed a moral issue. Why? Because this is a Love Thy Neighbor issue. In other words, “It’s not about you”. It’s about “others”, and our own Good Works are indeed for “Others”, not ourselves.
I know from experience with my own daughter, when I look at her postings on Facebook, all the memes stating, “Don’t worry about what other people think, Do for yourself” kind of stuff. Today’s kids are all about themselves, not caring what other people think. Tons of people post things like that on Facebook.
But what does Christianity teach? It teaches that we are to put other people before us, and that is across all denominations or non-denominations.
And that is my point in my postings, in that it isn’t about us, but about others.
Ed
LikeLike
One of my husband’s former employees had an adverse reaction to a childhood vaccination. It damaged his pancreas so that it no longer produced insulin. He will remain a type 1 diabetic for the rest of his life.
What religious leader or even a member of the general public, for that matter, will take responsibility for harassing someone into making that decision? Who pays the medical bills for those damaged by adverse reactions?
I’ve been on both sides of the fence in this issue. You can not make this decision for others.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Christianagnostic,
It’s okay to disagree, but Julie Anne has made it clear that she would like for the comments to stay focused on her main question about leaders making dogmatic statements about vaccinations. I must refrain from giving any personal testimony or offering opinion or perspective about vaccination itself.
LikeLike
Ed, I understand your point but I am refraining from responding and biting my tongue because I am not sure that discussion is profitable for this thread…. But here’s a question for you: Do you agree that Wilson, Johnson, et al, ought to be using their positions of “authority” to promote their agenda on this issue?
LikeLike
Joyelle,
I already answered that with Julie Anne, in that I think that EVERY American has that right to use their AUTHORITY, whatever that means, to say anything that they want, all due to the fact that we are Americans, afforded the right to speak our minds. And that we do not give up our citizenship just because we belong to church y, that disagrees with church x.
Me, I like to hear Pat Robertson, for example, speak, just so I can get entertainment and a laugh.
But to me, what it boils down to is from my first comment to you…common sense, not “spiritual wisdom”. Jesus is not opposed to us using common sense. And to me, common sense states, GET THE VACCINE, because IT’S NOT A BIG DEAL.
Personal opinion: I don’t understand why it’s a big deal. OK, so a few get adverse reactions. It happens. Do we all die for the sake of a few? No, we do it the opposite way.
So, I don’t have a problem with anyone using their pulpit to discuss this issue, either for, or against. In the end, we use “common sense”. This is a community issue, and we live in a community. Preach away, preachers. I don’t care.
Ed
LikeLike
Ed, thanks for explaining. I had not read your earlier comments. Respectfully, I would like to point out that you just finished arguing your point from spiritual wisdom (explaining in detail the outworking of how this issue applies to the principle of Love Thy Neighbor). And your recent statement is that it is not a matter of spiritual wisdom. You now say it is common sense. I agree that it is not a spiritual matter. I agree that we must use common sense.
LikeLike
Thank you for biting your tongue, Joyelle, because this blog will never solve the vaccination debate and that was not the intention of the post.
Please do not debate vaccines – -read the last paragraph of the article as a reminder. There are spiritual implications for Christian leaders who use their platform to discuss social issues. That is what we are discussing today. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Julie Anne,
What are “spiritual implications for Christian leaders who use their platform to discuss social issues”? I’m not getting what that means.
I think that all preachers should discuss social issues in regards to saving lives, because it is God that gave us this life, and we are to protect life, hence the social issue of abortion, gay marriage, and a whole slew of others.
Mark 3:4
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Ed
LikeLike
Joyelle,
I thank you for your comment. Maybe preachers should be preaching what “Love Thy Neighbor” means, so that they know what common sense is in decision making.
Ed
LikeLike
A number of people have already addressed the issues, Ed. Vaccinations can be deadly for certain people. It is essentially giving medical advice from the pulpit. I think pastors should direct people to key Biblical principles, but ultimately each person has to decide what is best for them and their family.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sure, Ed, as long as they don’t say, you better get vaccinated because it’s the right thing to do and you are not following Scripture if you don’t.
LikeLike
JA– My radar is on high alert for those who would 1)Use the Bible as a weapon, 2) Misuse their platform with a false sense of spiritual authority, 3) Make accusatory or strawman arguments, 4) Engage in circular reasoning to jumble up the real issue and 5) Attempt to be the conscience of someone else. These things can happen on a myriad of issues, whether social, economical, governmental or spiritual.
LikeLike
I’m surprised that Denny Burk has weighed in on something other than his usual two focal points of ‘homosexuality’ and ‘gay marriage’.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Julie Anne,
As per your 6:47 PM comment, I just now read THAT paragraph from the post. I hadn’t realized that you were THAT specific, more specific than you had ever been, and I did indeed go beyond that, so to everyone here…SORRY!
Ed
P.S.
Most times Julie Anne is gracious to me when I cross the line by a milometer, but I think I crossed it by a yard, today.
LikeLike
Exactly, Joyelle – – it’s wide open for potential abuse. Pastors should preach Jesus. And then they should step aside and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us and should not be acting as mediator to God or be involved in personal lives to such an extent that they make decisions for us or coerce, guilt, pressure people to make decisions based on their preferences.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yea you did, Ed. LOL
LikeLike
Julie Anne
Why can’t they say that it’s the right thing to do? Is it the right thing to save a life? Why is there opposition to what a preacher states, when it makes perfect sense?
The reason that I am so into this topic is because it was inoculations was mandatory when I was a kid, and I am trying to figure out what the sudden opposition is, especially this rhetoric about our own government, as being an evil empire, therefore, if you believe that our government is evil, which is a common teaching in some Christian groups, then you should oppose vaccines, right? The only example of the opposition that you provided that I saw was Pat Robertson, which everyone knows that he’s got a screw loose anyway. But outside of him the other preachers are for it, and I am seeing opposition to it from THIS blog, and I am wondering as to where that is coming from? Is it coming from a teaching that states, “GOVERNMENT IS EVIL” mindset, or what?
That is the part that I am not getting.
Ed
LikeLike
JA, Aaaaaaamen.
Ed, you could just do your own blog post. Or ask Julie Anne to give you your own thread.
LikeLike
Ed, it’s making sense to you maybe because you haven’t seen any harm done by vaccines. Have you been reading all of the comments?
LikeLike
Joyelle, Ed would like that 🙂
LikeLike
Since you mentioned Doug Wilson and brought up the problem of people who use the pulpit to target people in unbiblical ways, I thought of Phil Johnson. Not that I know what he thinks about vaccines (because I don’t care). I was pondering some things about him this morning… And I decided that he could easily become the dispensational version of Doug Wilson if Johnson is left unchecked. (Random, I know.)
LikeLike
Julie Anne,
Yes, I have read the comments, and that is what confuses me. You say that I haven’t seen the harm done, but I am certainly not ignorant of the harm done. My confusion comes in knowing that the harm done is LIMITED to a few, but is advantageous to many.
As Spock, from StarTrek used to say, The Needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few. Jesus died on the cross to save many. One man died to save us, who are many.
So, when a Christian Leader, no matter what his theology is, states something that saves lives, I’m not getting what the opposition is, I’m not getting why Christians do are up in arms about this topic being discussed by preachers.
I am alive, and I have been to countries that are third world that have many diseases that I never got. I am a living product of vaccines, which includes the anthrax vaccine.
Ed
LikeLike
I get that, Ed, but still, I think it is outside of a pastor’s job description to tell people to get vaccinated and then apply Bible verses to it to back up his opinion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Joyelle,
I like a bit of snark, as you can tell by my comments, I have a sarcastic personality. The regulars all know that about me. I can take what I dish out, so not to worry.
In this thread, I am using life experience, and common sense. I only used a spiritual reference because you had said something about sin and morals. Otherwise, I would have stuck to “common sense”, and I already stated my CARNAL common sense that has nothing to do with the Bible. And the reason that I did, is also because even unbelievers believe in common sense, without the bible.
My roommate is an atheist, and I once asked him that if all of us are here all by chance, what does he care if we destroy the world (we were in a debate about global warming, evolution, etc.), if there is nothingness after we are dead? His response: We still want life for our offspring, even if we evolve into another kind of creature.”
So, even my atheist roommate friend believes in saving lives.
Ed
LikeLike
Julie Anne,
You had said:
“I get that, Ed, but still, I think it is outside of a pastor’s job description to tell people to get vaccinated and then apply Bible verses to it to back up his opinion. ”
My response:
I see no problem with any pastor doing what you oppose here. They should. I did.
Ed
LikeLike