Clergy Sex Abuse, Misuse of Scripture, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Spiritual Abuse, Tullian Tchividjian

Reader Comments on My Bitterness and Hatred for Posting about Tullian Tchividjian’s Clergy Sexual Misconduct

I received an email not too long ago rebuking me for my posts on Tullian Tchividjian. This, of course, is not a first. I changed the person’s name and formatting for easier reading, but the content remains the same.

Hi Julie Anne,

My name is Taylor. And I interned at Coral Ridge in 2012. God undoubtedly used Tullian to open my eyes to Jesus and to grasp the gospel. A few conversations here and there was a cool thing to get to experience since I looked up to him and was so thankful for how God gifted him to communicate the gospel in a way that wrecked my heart in the best way possible to be an authentic follower of Jesus and not just a Sunday-I-Guess-I-Ought-To-Do-Right Christian.

I was devastated and heartbroken when I heard of the news of Tullian’s affair(s). I do not take sin lightly. Even though at times I’m way too prideful to admit and see my sin. Sadly enough I can fall into pride and feel justified in my sin! I hate that so much! I do not believe sin of any magnitude should be ignored. I believe it is essential that serious confrontation with sin takes place in the heart and life of every Christian. Today I came across your post from 2016 maybe? I’m not really sure when it was posted, but that’s irrelevant. I was literally stunned at the page I opened up to. 

I know that I am so ill-deserving of God’s Grace and mercy. It appears that you would say the same. The awareness I have of my sinful, cold, hardened heart apart from God’s never ending grace, mercy and pursuit of me, often brings me to tears of joy, and stirs my heart towards compassion for the fallen, and even the perpetrators against me. By no stretch of the imagination do I perfectly achieve compassion and grace for my perpetrators and frustrating and/or irritable people. Nevertheless, I do not believe my role, or anyone’s role, in God’s kingdom is to pile on peoples bad moral decisions. Even though too often my initial reaction is to do so.

Obviously the choice is yours as far as what you do with your website, what pastors/authors you choose to pay attention to, who you like or don’t like etc. It is also up to you to decide to love people against conditions of deserving love in the same way Jesus chooses to love us everyday.

Again, I was devastated, stunned and heartbroken when the news of Tullian’s choices of infidelity came to light. However, as heartbroken as I was by the news of Tullian’s selfish, self-indulgent sin, I am equally heartbroken by your blog posts in regards to Tullian’s falling from grace. 

I would define this 4-part series, or whatever you want to call it, and the culture you are cultivating as downright sinful and disgusting. It appears that your motivation is to have compassion for the people hurt by his decisions and to speak out against shallow Christianity perhaps?

Whatever your motivation, the posts are completely unacceptable Christian or even Non-Christian behavior. To continue to heap coals on Tullian’s sinful choices he made is not standing for justice. It is not helping anybody see Jesus in a compassionate, grace-filled light. Your posts and “investigative journalism” or whatever, helps reach zero people for the fame of Jesus. It also cultivates bitterness, resentment, and hate. And I don’t throw the word “hate” around lightly like many people do these days. 


What Tullian did was disgusting. But I am telling you, Julie Anne, your relentless pursuit of this story is not helping in the compassionate stand-up-for-justice way you think it is. My prayer is that your eyes are opened to the bitterness and hate that you are catering to, and how anti-Christian this material is. We are all fallen and broken with a desperate need of His unrelenting grace.

As a Christian, it would be beneficial to you and to me for you to remove the Tullian posts, no matter how old they are or how justified you feel they are. 

Thank you for taking the time to read this. 

   – Taylor

How would you respond to his e-mail? What important considerations is he missing? Where is he wrong? I will send him a link to this article so he can read the comments.

179 thoughts on “Reader Comments on My Bitterness and Hatred for Posting about Tullian Tchividjian’s Clergy Sexual Misconduct”

  1. From the (Link): same article:

    “When you look at this (clergy abuse) scandal as a whole, there’s one common factor,” Archibald (advocate for abuse victims) said. “All of them involve an abuse of power. Victims can have the same vulnerabilities whether they’re 8 or 18 or 48. And the traumatic suffering that comes from the abuse extends beyond any age or gender barrier.”

    Like

  2. christianpundit,

    This is more than once that you have falsely accused me of things that I did not say.

    I would refer you back to the 2 bible references that I posted on your blog, and that’s all I’m gonna say to you in this regard. I stand by it. I’ve done nothing to you.

    Ed Chapman

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  3. Julie Anne,

    I appreciate you allowing me to speak the last couple days. I’m not asking you to post this, but my goodness, the pushback I’m seeing regarding calling the police…I’m flabbergasted.

    Well, as my ex-wife loves to say…ya get what ya settle for. Seems like her statement rings true in the congregations of church’s, too? No one is willing to call the police?

    One last thing, there is no such thing as POWER in a pastor, or an elder. They put their pants on the same way that I do. One thing I learned in the military, it’s OK to question authority…respectfully, of course.

    But isn’t there ANY WISE people in the congregations that can STAND UP for justice, or is he/she just another yes man for the person who calls themselves POWER OVER THE PEOPLE, LEADER. Is there any wise person in the congregation that states, “HEY, THIS JUST ISN’T RIGHT”, or any wise person to say, LET’S GET OUT OF HERE, QUICK!

    I’m just not getting it. It’s OK to publicly accuse, but not to call the cops?

    News flash…the cops are the good guys.

    Ed

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  4. News flash…the cops are the good guys.

    You clearly haven’t read a thing that’s been posted on this point. Sometimes they really aren’t. Sadly.

    Nobody has opposed calling the cops. If you don’t respond to people’s actual points no one will take you seriously.

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  5. Nope, didn’t falsely accuse you.

    You accused ME of having self pride on my own blog, and then on this one, by way of quoting Bible verses about Pharisees, when I do not.

    I pointed out that I have “walked the walk” in regards to the Bible’s teachings about sexual purity, (which is true),
    but Tullian, who you keep defending, did NOT follow the bible’s teachings.

    You are defending a sexual predator and making it out where sexual abuse is “okay” and acceptable and should be forgiven and given a pass,

    but the Bible says men like Tullian should pay a price on earth for what they did, one of which is, he should not be permitted to stay in the pulpit

    You are in error, stop spreading falsehoods about me, and people like me, who actually DO what the Bible TEACHES.

    You label following Christ’s teachings as “self righteousness,” which is false. You owe me and people like me an apology.

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  6. CE said,
    One last thing, there is no such thing as POWER in a pastor, or an elder. They put their pants on the same way that I do.
    / / / /

    My first point.
    I second Lea who so aptly pointed out you’ve not read a follow up reply to your posts, except for one by me, since the other day.

    Nobody in this conversation has said police should not be called.
    Go back to page one of this thread to see those comments.

    Point number two.
    Secondly, yes, pastors do have power, power which is conferred on them by their congregants, denomination or church.

    This is especially true in complementarian churches.

    We ladies who were brought up in complementarians or authoritarian type churches are brainwashed since we are girls to think to please God, we must be absolute total doormats to other people,
    especially men, and especially in church contexts where male pastors are deemed to be little gods.

    Women who go to these pastors for counseling are already vulnerable.

    It is easy for a person to take advantage of someone who is hurting and opens up to you that they are in a difficult point in life right now,

    It’s the same dynamic as what goes on in psychiatry offices where patients are vulnerable
    -they open up and share their trauma with the doctor,
    and it would be easy for the doctor to leverage that to cajole a victim into sexual act,

    or in situations where middle-aged adults run financial scams on elderly people who live alone, because those elderly are hurting, lonely, some may have dementia.

    All these types of people are “easy marks” for the con artists and sexual abusers.
    You don’t get that or do not want to get it.

    It’s the same with pastors in churches, they will pounce on vulnerable women who come to see them, who admit “I am hurting right now, I am lost, I am confused, help me”.

    Those women have already been brainwashed from months to years of indoctrination by complementarian Christians to view the pastor as an authority over her, and as someone who CARES about her.

    You are really naive.

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  7. And by the way, CE,
    did I overlook you addressing the fact that I mentioned on page one of this thread that what Tullian did is already regarded as illegal (and unethical) in many states?

    Many states already acknowledge that a pastor who has sex with a congregant is guilty of clergy sexual abuse,
    even if the defending attorney argues “but the woman consented,”
    these cases are still not deemed to be “adultery” by the secular authorities.
    They are still classified as being clergy sexual abuse.

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  8. And by the way, CE,
    some people who are sexually abused may or may not recognize what happened to them as abuse,
    ergo, they may not call the police the moment afterwards to report it.

    The victim may not realize until YEARS LATER that what the perp did to them was abuse (especially if they were very young at the time, or confused already),
    because the abuser taught them to think that behavior was normal,
    that they the victim wanted it too,
    or that the victim will get into trouble if he or she reports it.

    Some people may realize what happened was sexual assault,
    but may be too afraid to call the cops,
    so, they may instead call their mother first, or a best friend and talk to their mother or friend about it.

    Some people may feel too ashamed of what happened,
    they may blame themselves for it (and our culture LOVES to victim blame sexual attack victims, tell them, well, you deserve to be raped because you flirted with the guy first, or you were wearing a short skirt), so a lot of abuse / rape victims will NOT phone the cops immediately.

    It’s normal for a lot of sexual abuse vics, (male or female), to wait DECADES to come forward. And even then, a police officer may not be the first guy they report to it about.

    Most police do NOT believe rape vics when the vics report, which a lot of us ladies ALREADY KNOW, so some of us choose NOT to report, because why bother when the cops won’t take us seriously or attempt to catch the perp

    You are terribly ignorant about these issues.

    You need to do a lot of research on it before you even think about opining about it on a blog ever again.

    And just think, you’re ultimately doing all this to defend guilty men, such as Tullian, Bill Cosby, and Harvey Weinstein.

    You don’t care about the women victims of male rapists and male sexual abusers at all. You are more concerned about these men’s “reputations” and so on.
    How do you sleep at night?

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  9. Christian Pundit,

    If he is a predator, call the cops. Felony words are used, and he’s not behind bars?

    I could care less about your celibacy. That’s your choice.

    But at the same time, you said on your blog, At least I’m not an adulterer. All I did, was to point you to a bible reference that states the same exact words that you did about yourself.

    It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent. I’m not defending anyone. Felony words are being used.

    But I’m curious why additional church rules must be made, regarding that pastors can’t have sex with a congregants, when we already have, thou shalt not commit adultery. That one commandment covers it all, and includes the congregation.

    But, if this is about power differential, then that’s a CRIMINAL act, and needs to be adjudicated in a courtroom. But no one is willing to go there.

    If people would strip away emotion, then they can seek justice rationally.

    First step. Find the numbers 9 and 1 on a telephone. Press 9 once, and 1 twice. Someone will answer.

    Ed Chapman

    But ya,

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  10. You’re saying that following the Bible’s sexual ethics is being self righteous. It is not.

    I am not an adulterer – I am not. That is a fact.

    I have followed the Bible’s teachings on sexuality, Tullian has not.

    He is a hypocrite, and you are a hypocrite for defending him.

    The church does not support adult celibates such as myself,
    and I have many examples on my blog of people such as you “cheerleading” on fallen guys like Tullian,

    saying they should be allowed to continue in ministry, when the Bible says God may give grace, but he also has expectations for our behavior, and he has penalities…

    And God says when a man is guilty of sexual sin, he should not be allowed to go on in the pulpit, but you are arguing Tullian should be allowed to go on in the pulpit with facing no consequences for his sexual sin.

    Churches seldom want to use people such as myself who have ACTUALLY followed the Bible’s teaching on sexual purity to teach their purity classes… they prefer to bring in peole with “sensational” sex sin stories like Tullian who humble brag about how they slept with 100 women outside of marriage, but they claim they are “cellibate now.”

    Actual celibates who have kept “clean” the whole time are shoved off to the side, not celebrated, not allowed to teach classes at church on sexual purity, but churchese JUMP at the chance to hire known sexual predators and cheaters like Tullian.

    And that is not okay, CE. I am poing out the hypocrisy and double standards that go on all the time in churches and among Xtians like you. That is not being “self righteous”

    Just because we don’t agree with you does not mean we are being emotional or are irrational – and that is a gendered sexist stereotype you should not be bringing up.

    You saId,
    It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent. I’m not defending anyone. Felony words are being used.
    = =—end — = =

    And that attitude is what allowed Bill Cosby, Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, and Larry Nassar to keep on raping and groping women, many women, over MANY YEARS.

    Many women came out a few at a time over a case of YEARS to say they were raped by Cosby or Clinton etc, and they weren’t believed until DECADES LATER, and in some cases, not until a MAN pointed it out!

    I don’t have to hear a case in a court to have an opininon on it, either.

    You act like your opinion is the only one that should count.

    You said,
    But I’m curious why additional church rules must be made, regarding that pastors can’t have sex with a congregants, when we already have, thou shalt not commit adultery.
    – — end —-

    Nobody said we need to have “new” rules.

    Clergy Sex Abuse already falls under the violations of several biblical concepts as-is.

    Your issue is, you want to keep saying any and all women who had sex with a pastor are equally to blame or equally as guilty as the pastor, which is FALSE.

    The Bible does not specifically use the phrase “child molestation,” are you arguing we cannot or should not throw child molesters into jail too?

    Do you think we all have to wait for a judge to say “guilty” to believe your five year old grand-son when he comes to you and says, “grand daddy, that pastor molested my penis”

    What if your grand son is fondled by the pastor at age six but is too ashamed and afraid to tell you until his is 25 year old, CE?

    Are you going to disbelieve him, insist on calling the cops, ask him,
    “why didn’t you speak out then”
    “why didn’t you call the cops ten years ago when this happend”?

    No, probably not, but you bring up those standrads to judge GROWN WOMEN who are telling you they were sexualy preyed upon by some deviant who used his position of trust to molest them.

    Lastly nobody in this thread that I can recall said that the cops should not be called.

    And maybe the cops were called eventually, I do not know. But whether the cops were phoned or not does change the fact that many states consider clergy with congregant sex to be Clergy Sex abuse, it is not classifed as “adultery”

    You said,
    “But, if this is about power differential, then that’s a CRIMINAL act, and needs to be adjudicated in a courtroom. But no one is willing to go there.
    —-end—-

    It’s already being done!

    It’s AGAINST THE LAW in many states for clergy to have sex with church members.

    Not all people who are raped or molested report it immediately because they are emotionally traumatized, CE.

    Additionally, most women already know the police don’t believe us when we tell them we were raped or molested, so we do not bother to report it, because it is a waste of our time.

    Have you not seen the previous links I left for you in this thread?

    Read this article:
    (Link): An Epidemic of Disbelief – What New Research Reveals About Sexual Predators, And Why Police Fail to Catch Them

    I have already pasted in for you links to studies that show WHY vicitms do NOT immiedately call the cops when they are raped by their pastor or brother or teacher.

    Go back and read my links, if not, don’t reply to my comments anymore

    You are clearly not reading the other commetns I left for you, nor the ones by Lea.

    It is a lie from the pits of Hell to say that,
    “well if someone was raped, but they don’t call the cops they weren’t really raped / they are lying / it never happend”

    Liked by 1 person

  11. You were using a Bible verse to smear me with, you were using the words of Jesus to insult me, CE, it’s the same thing. Own what you did, stop trying to Weasel Word your way out of it

    The Bible teaches that people are not to have sex outside of marriage, so I am single, so I’ve not had sex outside of marriage.

    Tullian, though, is a married guy who has had sex outside of marriage MANY TIMES. He is not living by the Bible’s sexual standards… for me pointing that out, you then quote a Bible verse about the Pharisee who said “thank you god that I am not Like Tulllian the sex pervert Tax Collector” – but that is not what I am doing.
    I am pointing you to all the Bible verses that say “there shall be no sexual immorality among you” and that “sex is for the marriage bed only,” and I have lived those commands out, FACT, and Tullian has NOT, which is another FACT, that is not me playing at being a Self Righteous Pharisee praying in the Temple, so stop bearing FALSE WITNESS against me, CE24

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  12. If I did things right, I think I managed to put CE on block.

    Every time he does a direct reply to one of my posts on here,
    a Red Dot appears in on the Bell symbol whenever I am on a Word Press site,
    and his name and comments appear, which I would rather not see.

    So I went to this part of my Word Press dashboard:
    “Comments on other sites
    Control your notification settings when you comment on other blogs.”

    And I de-selected the “see notifications from this person” choice.

    I hope that takes care of it.

    I’d really rather not “talk” with this person any more, because it’s a waste of time.

    I’ve seen CE debate and debate and debate others on this subject the last few years on other blogs, and he does not want to learn or change.

    He has it “stuck” in his head that each and every time a pastor has sex with a teen or adult congregant that it’s a simple black- and- white case of “adultery,” which is it not.

    Then he gets into all these weird, shape shifting, goal- post- moving arguments about ,”well, even if it is as you say I still don’t believe it, because they didn’t call the police ten seconds after it happened.”

    As though this CE person has never, ever read articles about how and why most victims react to being sexually assaulted or sexually exploited as they do.

    (Hint: it’s actually very normal and very common for most victims to NOT call the cops immediately, if ever; that does NOT mean that a rape or sexual exploitation did NOT occur.

    Further, the way some predators operate, the victim may not even recognize that what happened to them WAS abuse until decades later.
    That is also common. It doesn’t mean that what happened to them 15 or more years ago was NOT assault or sexual exploitation)

    I hope I was able to put CE on mute, at least in the notifications.
    Every time I visit my CP account, I get that dreaded red dot with his name by it, with another one of his blood pressure increasing stupid replies. I’d rather not see these.

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  13. Although i agree with a some of your points, I dont like the emphasis on ‘purity’ or so called lack thereof. That’s not the issue here, to me at all.

    The problem is not two adults in a loving relationship having sex without being married. It’s cheating, and using, and creeping on people who are vulnerable and using his position to do so. And it’s whether those things should be acceptable behavior in a supposed minister.

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  14. Lea said,
    Although i agree with a some of your points, I dont like the emphasis on ‘purity’ or so called lack thereof. That’s not the issue here, to me at all.
    — end—- – —

    For me it’s a huge issue and it’s relevant, and CE brought this issue up at MY blog (I deleted his post there).

    I did what the church taught me as I was growing up, stayed a virgin partly because I wasn’t married, they said if I did this, God would send me a spouse.
    God did not send me a spouse.

    Additionally, most churches are all about meeting the needs of Married People who have kids. They expend little time, energy or effort into helping adult singles.

    Yet a lot of churches celebrate fornicators.

    The women who sleep around a lot when they are single, but then later say they are now cleaned up.

    They get paid six figure book deals by Xtian publishers to write about their “crazy” days sleeping around and how they re-committed to Jesus so now they are “pure” now.

    They get lots of money and attention for this. They get applause. I don’t see why. They yak and yak about only “spiritual”purity mattering… God’s grace..
    that is what Tullian does in the context of his Clergy Sex Abuse, it’s the same thing,
    sexual sinners want to be celebrated and to make a buck off their moral failings.
    And Christians keep giving it to them, for some reason.

    Churches will allow them, the fornicators (I know HUG doesn’t like this term, but it still fits, fornication is still a thing), to march in and hold sexual purity seminars for the teens and whomever else to listen to.

    Amy of Watch Keep even did a post years ago about how that famous pastor allowed a known child predator to lead a men’s sexual purity bible group at his church for a few years.

    But churches never ask or are interested in seeking out ACTUAL adult virgins to lead these classes.
    Those of us who did not fail in this area are treated horribly.

    We honest to god celibates and virgins are not recognized, rewarded, or celebrated in any way what so ever in churches or by Christians… but the sexual sinners are.

    And you don’t see a problem with that on multiple levels? Because I sure do.

    But then you also get Married guys like Tullian, who sleep around all over the place,
    and not only are they not reprimanded,
    but you see apologists like CE fall all over themselves defending the guy,
    and the church gives men like Tullian even bigger pay checks and mansions.

    The folks who actually LIVE OUT Christian sexual ethics – which yes, includes no sexual activity until marriage -are treated like trash and told we have “spiritual pride.”

    Which is one of the things CE has done to me not just here but over on my blog (but I removed his post there)

    I am pointing out how hypocritical and lax 99% of Christians are on these issues, is all I am doing.

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  15. it’s the same thing, sexual sinners want to be celebrated and to make a buck off their moral failings.

    That’s just it. It’s NOT the same thing.

    And, people disagree with you about what is even sin where this is concerned: although it may not be the traditional church answer I see no one being hurt by consenting adults. I see a lot of people being hurt by Tullians actions. THAT is the difference.

    I don’t want anyone treated like trash, whether they have chosen to have sex or not. Calling them ‘fornicators’ is gross. I

    Amy of Watch Keep even did a post years ago about how that famous pastor allowed a known child predator to lead a men’s sexual purity bible group at his church for a few years.

    Yes lots of the things churches accept or don’t accept is hypocritical. This is terrible, no doubt. But the problem is not that the man wasn’t a VIRGIN, it was that he was a CHILD PREDATOR. PLEASE for the love of god stop conflating consensual with non consensual sex. The church does that way too often itself.

    I will note that iirc Tullian was actually kicked out of his denomination so they at least did the right thing (even if it took them a while, forgetting the details). The problem there is that i could hang out a shingle and rent out the plaza and claim to be a preacher any day and that’s basically what he’s doing.

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  16. I did what the church taught me as I was growing up, stayed a virgin partly because I wasn’t married, they said if I did this, God would send me a spouse. God did not send me a spouse.

    And this is a whole separate thing and bad advice that we could absolutely get into but please read what I wrote above.

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  17. Ed-/ You wrote “I’m just wondering what Bathsheba’s story is.”
    Nathan (the real “Prophet of God”) described her as a little ewe lamb who got devoured. Lamb-eating is also practiced by wolves— Predators! Years later he went to her as an advocate encouraging her to speak up and save her life and the lives of others. Nathan forgot to mention any role her sins may have played. So did the inspired Bible-writers. Not one word.

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  18. Pastor John,

    Well, I’m not so sure that the word predator is the word equated with Nathan’s words. Nathan does not describe David here as a wolf, but a rich man that had everything, needing nothing, that stole something that wasn’t his. I don’t see any indication of predator, or wolf. Sorry. Just a rich man.

    My point was that they got married, and had children. The “sin” was “put away”, but his consequences was that God was gonna take his child (and after God did, David got up and at and went to Bathsheba and comforted her, etc., and they had Solomon).

    His servants were SURPRISED by his actions that once the child was dead, he ate, as if nothing had happened.

    Bottom line, David and Bathsheba got married. I don’t see Nathan harassing David about it after that first time that he mentions it. Neither does anyone else.

    Ed Chapman

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  19. “If he is a predator, call the cops. Felony words are used, and he’s not behind bars?”

    Let me tell you about BYU. The university honor code said that women would not engage in intercourse during their tenure at BYU. The police were hired and managed by the university, just as many other institutions have their own deputized police force. The police were required to report to their superiors when a woman called the cops, and the superiors contacted the university, who expelled the women.

    Whether the cops were the good guys or not, there was a simple truism at BYU. Women who reported rapes were expelled. End of story.

    Can you explain to me how these women shouldn’t be afraid to call the cops, and how, if they don’t call the cops, they’re somehow complicit in their own rape?

    Is it JUSTICE to expel rape victims?

    And… I don’t necessarily think cops are bad. I think that they want to do the right thing, but the system in place does not adequately train them for dealing with cases of abuse. For example, a study was done in England where they trained officers on how to question women in domestic violence situations, and they re-prioritized their handling so that DV cases were given better responses. Perhaps surprisingly, abusive men were put behind bars and the murder rate went down. That’s because they realized that most of these spousal/partner murderers had the police called on them multiple times for DV cases (e.g. Nicole Simpson).

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  20. Mark,

    Leviticus 5:1
    Contemporary English Version
    If you refuse to testify in court about something you saw or know has happened, you have sinned and can be punished.

    So what’s more important, Mark…Justice or expulsion from school? Like I said, excuse after excuse after excuse. What’s it gonna take to change the mind of people to call the cops?

    The role of the cops is to investigate, and gather evidence, not to play domestic violence counselors. Once they investigate, they turn over the information to the Prosecuting Attorney, and it is that person who decides whether it goes to trial or not.

    And if it does go to trial, the predator has an option of plea bargain before trial, and the “predator” gets convicted, and is sentenced.

    Are we forgetting Romans 13? The cops are the ones who carry the sword.

    Also, Corinthians discusses things that are SMALL matters that the church can handle in house. This is not a small matter. It’s a felony.

    Either you are accepting the church policy, or you are on the side of the law. Take your pick. Which is it gonna be? Church is NOT a sovereign power separate from the state. The state has jurisdiction.

    The church Leaders, what you people call them, are not above the law. They don’t get to decide a felony matter.

    Ed Chapman

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  21. Ed, you need to learn your Bible: “The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?” (1 Cor 6)

    The modern-day result of what you’re quoting is a subpoena, not some sort of mandatory reporting requirement for all sins.

    “So what’s more important, Mark…Justice or expulsion from school?”

    Okay, in 2016, Madi Barney, a BYU student, was raped by Nasiru Seidu. She reported the rape to the Provo police department. The Provo police department contacted the BYU police who sent the police report to the BYU Title IX office. The Title IX office contacted the dean of students who expelled Madi Barney from school.

    Madi and the Provo police got Seidu to confess. He said, “You said I raped you. I did, and I want you to forgive me.” while she was wearing a wire. However, despite having confessed in a police-monitored recording to raping her, Seidu was acquitted of rape.

    So, now, what do you think women will choose?
    Expulsion and Injustice, or just Injustice.

    *Note: because of this case, and their lack of cooperation, BYU’s police department was decertified by the state of Utah, and in order (I think) to save their federal loan and grant status, they modified their Honor Code to explicitly say that women would not be expelled for reporting rape.

    Like

  22. Here are some interesting statistics:
    Out of 1000 sexual assaults:
    230 (23%) will be reported, 46 (20%) will lead to arrest, 9 (20%) will go to trial, 5 (45%) will lead to a felony conviction
    Out of 1000 robberies:
    619 (62%) will be reported, 167 (27%) will lead to arrest, 37 (22%) will go to trial, 22 (59%) will lead to a felony conviction
    Out of 1000 assault and battery cases:
    627 (63%) will be reported, 255 (41%) will lead to arrest, 105 (41%) will go to trial, 41 (39%) will lead to a felony conviction

    In almost every stage of JUSTICE, sexual assault victims are statistically less likely to see the case progress.

    So, if I’m weighing a definite expulsion against a 2% chance that my rapist goes to jail, I’d say the math is not on my side.

    But, here’s the other side, whether I go to the police or not, it is still MY STORY. There are very few instances where anyone in the Bible is told to stay quiet about what happened to them. So, when you are telling people that they have to report rape to the police or shut up, who died and made you king? Certainly, it is not in scripture.

    If TT used his church-given authority and position of trust to influence women to have sex with him, why should they stay quiet about it? Why should WE stay quiet about it? You have yet to answer that despite making noise over and over about it.

    “It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent.”

    He is presumed innocent when it comes to legal status. That doesn’t mean that private citizens can’t have their own opinion about the matter and can’t discuss the matter in public forum.

    Is Cain innocent? Ahab? David? Abner? None of these men were convicted in a court of law, by a jury of their peers.

    Is the Bible more concerned about due process, or about the truth?

    Like

  23. Mark,

    Please…your reference pertains to small matters, not felonies. I point you to Romans 13…the law of the land. The state has jurisdiction.

    IF a rape happens at HOME, what are ya gonna do, Mark? Run to the pastor? Ask the pastor and elders permission to call the cops?

    If your house is on fire, and a congregant started the fire…are ya gonna let it burn…after all…why not rather be wronged and homeless.

    Is this really what you want? We are to seek JUSTICE, and if you don’t want to…then don’t.

    Keep it hush hush in the church. Let the PREDATOR go free to hurt someone else. Let everyone be wronged. Do you know how that sounds, Mark? Let a rapist go free, cuz wouldn’t it be better to be wronged? Really?

    Ya know what? I could care less about school policy. I could care less about school threats. FIGHT. Are you that afraid to FIGHT and get your name out there? Take it all the way to the GOVERNORS office, and make some noise. EXPOSE it, like and fight like Norma Rae did for the Unions back in the day.

    DON’T BE PASSIVE AND EDUCATE PEOPLE!

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  24. Mark,

    I’m flabbergasted at what you said Mark. I can’t believe that you know nothing about the judges that Moses set up, the LAW of Moses with it’s PENALTIES of one disobeys, and even in the days of Jesus there was the Sanhedrin, a Jewish Court. They held trials. The Apostle Paul was an attorney (lawyer).

    Jesus was taken to the Jewish court before being handed over to the Romans.

    The Law of Moses states that ONE WITNESS cannot bring a charge, but out of the mouth of two or three witnesses may every word be established.

    Yes, there was a judicial side of the law of Moses.

    Cain was punished directly by God LONG BEFORE there was a law of Moses,
    and regarding David…there was no witnesses. There must be at least 2 witnesses to even bring a charge.

    How much of the Bible do you really know? I don’t get why you are trying so hard to separate a CITIZEN from their American rights to due process, JUST BECAUSE he goes to church. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  25. Ya know what? I could care less about school policy. I could care less about school threats.

    Ya know why that is? It’s because you’ve never been threatened by a school with expulsion, simply for reporting a crime committed against you. You don’t have to live with the fear that women like Madi Barney do.

    FIGHT. Are you that afraid to FIGHT and get your name out there?

    How dare you? How dare you imply that these raped and abused women are cowards, just because they haven’t reported every detail to the police? You don’t have to endure their anguish and pain, and you never will. It’s awfully easy for you to say what they ought to do — you’ll never live with the consequences.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Serving Kids in Japan,

    OK, I’m done. This is getting nowhere fast. Don’t report any crimes to police. Keep it all in house. How dare me! Imagine that anyone would want a predator to be LOCKED UP. That’s insane! Don’t seek justice for anyone. Oh, but FEED THE POOR!

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  27. “How much of the Bible do you really know? I don’t get why you are trying so hard to separate a CITIZEN from their American rights to due process, JUST BECAUSE he goes to church. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.”

    You’re not interested in justice. You’re interested in protecting your good ole’ boys.

    If you understood the Bible, you would understand that God’s Law supersedes the law of the state, and that justice supersedes the civil magistrate.

    You would recognize that, despite Moses’s law, God continually railed against the lack of justice in Israel, and it was NEVER about the victim. It was always the elders, the magistrates, the prophets – those in power.

    If you understood the Bible, you would realize that the law is about compassion and mercy, not sacrifice. It’s about righting wrongs, not due process.

    This is what Jesus had to say about you. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!”

    “I don’t get why you are trying so hard to separate a CITIZEN from their American rights to due process, JUST BECAUSE he goes to church. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.”

    Can you give me one example where I do that?

    YOU are the one saying that a victim must shut up about a crime being committed unless she first goes to the police. AND THEN only if he is convicted. And I quote, “It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent.”

    Like

  28. Mark,

    You had said:
    “You’re not interested in justice. You’re interested in protecting your good ole’ boys.”

    My response:
    Where are you coming up with that conclusion? Where did I say that? Good ole boys?

    Dude, I could care less about good ole boys. What I’m saying is that if someone is gonna publicly accuse, then BACK IT UP with a call to the police, and if he really is a predator as what is being accused, that so-called good ole boy has RIGHTS as an American. I don’t believe in good ole boys. You just don’t wan that good ole boy to serve time in jail, cuz you don’t want to call the cops. YOU are the problem in the church’s. NOT ME.

    You had said:
    “If you understood the Bible, you would understand that God’s Law supersedes the law of the state, and that justice supersedes the civil magistrate.”

    My response:
    What kind of a statement is that? READ BELOW!

    Titus 3:1
    Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    Romans 13 Living Bible (TLB)

    13 Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don’t want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. 4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose. 5 Obey the laws, then, for two reasons: first, to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should.

    6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God’s work, serving you. 7 Pay everyone whatever he ought to have: pay your taxes and import duties gladly, obey those over you, and give honor and respect to all those to whom it is due.

    Mark, I know the bible EXTREMELY WELL, and we are to SEEK JUSTICE.

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

    1 Timothy 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

    2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

    You had said:
    “YOU are the one saying that a victim must shut up about a crime being committed unless she first goes to the police. AND THEN only if he is convicted. And I quote, “It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent.””

    My response:

    I NEVER SAID THAT. I said PUT UP OR SHUT UP. IF you are going to PUBLICLY accuse someone of a crime, then by God follow up with a phone call to the police, or DON’T SAY A WORD at all, if you don’t plan on JUSTICE. It’s not about protecting the good ole boys.

    You are putting words in my mouth. Read the Constitutional Amendments regarding the accused. The Accused Has Rights.

    Amendment 5
    – Protection of Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.

    Amendment 6
    – Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

    Amendment 7
    – Rights in Civil Cases

    In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States than according to the rules of the common law.

    Amendment 8
    – Excessive Bail, Fines, and Punishments Forbidden

    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    If YOU SEE A CRIME, OR KNOW OF ONE, CALL THE COPS. DON’T TURN A BLIND EYE.

    If CLERGY knows of a child molestation, they have MANDATORY REPORTING. The CHILD doesn’t get an option to NOT report the crime, just because they are scared to talk to investigators. Reporting is MANDATORY.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  29. So what’s more important, Mark…Justice or expulsion from school? Like I said, excuse after excuse after excuse. What’s it gonna take to change the mind of people to call the cops?

    What is gonna take, says Ed, after hearing MULTIPLE reasons why people might not call the cops? Bah. Change the incentives, treat women who report better, actually investigate and actually prosecute. It’s really, really simple. It’s also really clear Ed doesn’t give a damn.

    For example, a study was done in England where they trained officers on how to question women in domestic violence situations, and they re-prioritized their handling so that DV cases were given better responses. Perhaps surprisingly, abusive men were put behind bars and the murder rate went down.

    I listen to a podcast with a woman who advocate for DV situations in England and she calls it ‘murder in slow motion’ which is so apt. She also laid out how it’s more expensive to investigate a murder than it is to prevent it.

    Like

  30. How dare you? How dare you imply that these raped and abused women are cowards

    Serving Kids in Japan. Yes. How dare you pretty much sums it up. I’m not reading anymore of this from Ed.

    Like

  31. Ed, “My response: What kind of a statement is that? READ BELOW!”

    Let me ask you… What DID Jesus do?

    Attempted Murder: “And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. But passing through their midst, He went His way.” (Luke 4 28-30)

    Jesus did not report the attempted murder to the authorities.

    Testifying in court: “And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer. Then Pilate said to Him, “Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?” And He did not answer him with regard to even a single charge, so the governor was quite amazed.” (Matt 27:12-14)

    Jesus refused to testify in court against false accusations.

    Public accusation without charges: “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44)

    ‘He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”’ (Mark 7:9-13)

    Jesus called the Pharisees murderers, liars (John) and incorrigible children worthy of death (Mark) without first pressing charges in the civil courts.

    You repeatedly show that you are not willing to accept the instruction of scripture in regards to this matter, and you have repeatedly conflated criminal law and the US Constitution with justice while ignoring all other avenues of justice. In your scriptural blindness (while you claim you see!) you are calling Jesus himself a sinner by your unbiblical and distorted standards.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. Lea,

    That’s just it. It’s NOT the same thing.

    And, people disagree with you about what is even sin where this is concerned: although it may not be the traditional church answer I see no one being hurt by consenting adults.
    — end —

    It is the same thing.

    Yes, I often see Christians online attempting to justify their sexual sin by saying the Bible is “unclear” etc about fornication, but it’s really not. Remaining chaste until marriage was the cultural norm in Jesus’ religion and time. It was assumed people would and should wait until they married to have sex.

    Personally, I don’t care if you fornicate – go right ahead if you so choose and sleep with your boyfriend because it’s “not hurting anyone” – but don’t tell me such behavior is “biblical” or God accepts it, or that virginity until marriage is nothing but a “patriarchal construct.”

    Jesus was a virgin. He was not sleeping around. He never married, and he never had any children. He’s the example Christians are to look to.

    And yes, most churches excuse sexual sin of all stripes, including fornication.

    Many Christians and churches will ignore celibate adults (like myself), and they don’t want to meet our needs, but as a fellow celibate who came to my blog noted a few years ago:

    These same churches will do things such as give gift certificates, baby showers, church sponsored parties and give free diapers to women who become pregnant due to having sex outside of wedlock.

    These fornicators are supported, encouraged emotionally and financally for having fornicated.

    But there is no support or encouragement for the adult who is over the age of 30 and still following the Bible’s rules and expectations about sexual morality (which is abstaining until marriage – not having sex with a boyfriend, girlfriend, or fiance).

    There are actually pastors (examples on my blog) who do things like give sermons about how the world can know us and know Christ via our “smoking hot sex lives.”

    So they sermonize about how and why Christians have great sex, and how all you Christians having sex need to be talking about your awesome sex lives with your atheist friends. It’s supposed to serve as an apologetic to entice the atheists to convert to Christianity.

    Funny they never give sermons about how the world can know us from our adults who are actually living out what the bible teaches and remaining sexually abstinent.

    The sinners get rewarded and those who have actually “walked the walk” get nothing.

    May I suggest to you that unless you are as I am – still abstaining into middle age – if you are having sex outside of marriage and/or defending that concept – you are not going to notice the huge amount of double standards, hypocrisy, and perversion that passes for normalcy nearly as much as my fellow adult virgins do.

    They come to my blog over the last few years to commiserate and mention that they too have noticed how churches do not celebrate or support THEM in their singleness and struggles, but they will run themselves ragged fawning all over the men and women who have sex outside of marriage, have sex outside of marriage, and they will help and give money to singles who are fornicating.

    But they won’t help those of us who are single, living alone, chaste, and do not have kids.

    The church is consumed and obsessed with marriage, sex, fornication and defending fornication and shaming virgins for being virgins (again, I have examples on my blog of this).

    Virginity and Celibacy is not honored among Christians, it is thought to be weird, strange, rare, and possible only to a select few who God has “gifted’ with it (which is an incorrect view, it comes down to self control and conviction, not Supernatural intervention).

    Like

  33. CE said:
    Don’t report any crimes to police. Keep it all in house.
    —end—

    I specifically told you the last time I was here about four days ago that was not what I was saying, nor do I think anyone else here had said that, either.

    You continue to misrepresent other people’s views or comments on here.

    You also call people who follow Christ’s teachings on sexuality as being “self righteous” then when called out on that, you deny you said it. But you did.

    CE said:
    What I’m saying is that if someone is gonna publicly accuse, then BACK IT UP with a call to the police
    — end–

    And I explained to you at least twice already in this thread that the typical victim, male or female is usually too emotionally distraught to call police immediately after being attacked. There are psychological issues at play that make them reluctant to pick up a phone and report it. That has been explained to you several times over, but you keep ignoring it.

    Victims of sexual assault are not going to act or say or do the things you “think” they “should” when you think they should do it.

    If a kid is molested at age ten, it may not be until age 50 they realize what happened to them was abuse.

    Women who are raped or sexually exploited may believe wrongly they were to blame for having been sexually assaulted. They are afraid they will not be believed if they come forward. They feel ashamed. All those things can play a role in why they don’t call the police right away, and has been explained to you ten times over.

    Like

  34. Mark,

    How did the thief next to Jesus get on the cross?

    Attempted murder was not a crime. Murder was.

    Regarding Jesus being silent, he had a right to be silent.

    Jesus was falsely accused of a crime. Blasphemy. In order to accuse, you must have two witnesses. At least two witnesses falsely accused Jesus of a crime. You are not obligated to testify against yourself.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  35. CE said:
    IF a rape happens at HOME, what are ya gonna do, Mark? Run to the pastor? Ask the pastor and elders permission to call the cops?
    — end—

    As I told you about four days ago, go and research the psychology of sexual assault victims and educate yourself, because you are clearly incredibly ignorant about this topic.

    Stop offering your sexist, hurtful, obnoxious and incorrect opinions about sexual assault victims and how you think they should react to having been abused.

    Just because a victim does not report when or how YOU THINK they should does not mean they were lying about their sexual abuse.

    I have twice given you a link to an in depth report that showed that most police do not believe victims when they report rapes, and most women already know this, which is why many of us do not report our rapes if we were raped.

    The public and defense attorney will also ask us invasive or rude questions such as “did you enjoy being raped” and “what were you wearing when he raped you,” as if to suggest we are to blame for having been sexually attacked (if we were. I myself was not).

    This is not rocket science. I am guessing you are too ignorant or too biased to understand.

    And yes, a lot of women are in fact going to run to their pastor if they have been raped, are suffering depression, are being abused by their husband,

    especially the younger ones who lack life experience who were raised to think that a pastor – a man of God – will have their best interest of heart.

    I know up until a few years ago I held the wrong assumption that most Christians are actually going to do what the Bible says and act compassionately towards me if or when I need the help, but I have had a rude awakening that most Christians are insensitive hypocrites who only mouth following Jesus but they won’t actually do what Jesus taught.

    I know now that most Christians and a pastor are among the LAST people I would go to if I were hurting and needing help

    I would be better off and safer confiding in a Non-Christian friend or using a secular source.

    Lastly, women who are brought up in complementarian Christian denominations, families and churches are brain-washed from the time they are youth to think they can and should always defer to a MAN and a MAN’S opinions and input.

    So many complementarian women are told and instructed by their parents and churches to yes, always run first to a male pastor and tell him if you have been raped, mugged, have depression, or have some other problem

    Stop blaming women for that, Ce. Stop blaming women and girls for being indoctrinated with this sexist trash that makes them more vulnerable to being abused in the first place and then accepting poor treatment if they report their abuse. You are victimizing these women twice.

    When women did report sexual predators like Weinstein and Cosby to the police, nothing was done for many years.

    20 Year old women who report being raped by a college football player to their local police have been harassed by their communities for it and even run out of town and had to drop out of school, b/c most people want to defend rapist men – not the victims of these men.

    Most women know this, which makes them afraid to go to the cops and report.

    You are helping to perpetuate these very attitudes that make women afraid to step forward.

    And in the meantime the men who prey on women, laugh and clap their hands in glee at people like you who ENABLE them to keep preying on girls and women. How do you sleep at night.

    Like

  36. Mark quoted CE:
    YOU are the one saying that a victim must shut up about a crime being committed unless she first goes to the police. AND THEN only if he is convicted. And I quote, “It is my personal opinion that until TT is convicted in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of his peers, he is presumed innocent.”
    — end —

    I wonder. And assuming that Tullian is around what now, 50 years old, and I think most of his victims were within 5 – 10 years of him?

    I assume that CE is an older guy?

    Supposing CE has a niece, daughter, aunt, or granddaughter in an age range that Tullian would love to prey on, and Tullian abused his position as pastor to earn CE’s female relative’s trust
    -say she is in a vulnerable place in her life right now- and Tullian cajoles and swindles her into bed –would CE still be clinging to these harmful and insensitive arguments?

    Say for example that CE’s adult niece (or adult grand daughter) is exploited by Tullian, and she doesn’t gather the courage until 15 years after the fact to tell CE,

    and maybe she didn’t even recognize at first that the abuse was abuse (this is common for a lot of victims),
    So she did not report TT to the church at the time let alone the police,

    Would CE actually shame and scold her, and say he doesn’t believe his own adult daughter, adult niece, or adult grand daughter, that TT has not been convicted in a court of law, so far as he is concerned TT is an innocent, lilly white angel, and she need to put up or shut up?

    If CE has adult nieces or grand daughters, would CE feel comfortable allowing Tullian to e-mail, Facebook, call, or tweet these ladies, yes or no?

    I personally would not encourage any adult woman I know to give Tullian the time of day, because he is a sexual predator. I would encourage them to give Tullian a wide berth.

    And I would not blame them for having been sexually exploited by Tullian after the face and grill them and say “you are making this all up, because you didn’t call the police within a day of this happening”

    I feel very sorry for any women family members, friends, acquaintances of CE’s.

    If any of them are aware of CE’s retrograde, sexist, incorrect views of sexual assault and sexual abuse, you know none of them would never confide in him or seek any sort of support from him.
    They would never talk to him about it.

    Like

  37. But they won’t help those of us who are single, living alone, chaste, and do not have kids.

    I actually am single, living alone, without kids. I understand all of that perfectly. You, however, do not understand how you come off, clearly. Single people (whatever their sexual history) should be valued in the church and treated well. Maybe I’m old fashioned because I don’t really want to hear about strangers sex life OR lack thereof.

    Where i start to care is when they start hurting other people. Period.

    Personal choices to have or not have sex, are one hundred percent different than cheating on a spouse or abusing a child or counselee or rape. I am not in the ‘all sins are the same sins’ camp, even if you believe having sex outside of marriage is a sin (and there are multiple old testament examples where it is treated as just fine) it is not the SAME type of sin as taking advantage of, and hurting, or betraying another person.

    Like

  38. CP: “The public and defense attorney will also ask us invasive or rude questions such as “did you enjoy being raped” and “what were you wearing when he raped you,” as if to suggest we are to blame for having been sexually attacked (if we were. I myself was not).”

    Yes, this! Florida had to pass laws to prevent defense attorneys from engaging in this pointless and retaliatory line of questioning. I don’t know whether other states have these laws or not. The attorneys’ one and only job is getting their client an acquittal, and any sort of smear tactic / re-victimization of the plaintiff is within bounds.

    One line of reasoning that is still being actively pursued is the “incomplete memory” line of reasoning. Like, “What fabric were his sheets?” “What clothes was he wearing?” How many windows were in the room? What color was the room. The presumably obvious conclusion is that if the witness cannot remember whether the room was blue or green, or the sheets were flannel or satin, or what he was wearing, then they can somehow draw a conclusion(???) that the victim could not adequately identify the assailant, or is not a credible witness. However, I think these sorts of lines of questioning should be approved or denied a priori because the victims memory of the type of sheets doesn’t seem pertinent to the accusation of rape, or the credibility of the witness. What they are pertinent to is predatory and retaliatory re-victimization of the witness, and attempting to goad the witness into emotional outburst for the purpose of discrediting testimony.

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  39. Also, I think it has been noted many times, that overemphasis on celibacy, virginity, so called ‘purity’ etc, is deeply harmful to people who have been abused as children or raped. Elizabeth Smart went into great detail on this.

    So if people have stopped actively shaming people for these things (and they…have not really, witness your comment) that is a good thing, imo. The good of it certainly outweighs any possible bad.

    Like

  40. CP: “These same churches will do things such as give gift certificates, baby showers, church sponsored parties and give free diapers to women who become pregnant due to having sex outside of wedlock.”

    I want to tread carefully on this one. I would much rather the church celebrate the life than do what, for example, Christian High Schools have done – shun the pregnant woman while embracing the impregnating man. I also think that fornication is a one-time event, and the church should not continually require penitence and re-repentance when it has already been given.

    That said, I think that the church ought to be a safe, loving and celebratory place for all members, whether children, parents, singles, widows, divorcees. It pains me to see how many suffer the same treatment I briefly had (I was single until late 20s) on an ongoing basis and continue to be rejected and pushed aside by the church.

    I think in many cases, these celebrations are more like the party the father throws for the prodigal son. He was dead, saw his sin and repented and his return to life should be celebrated. Oftentimes, we want to respond like the older brother, and I think that is also not the father’s heart in this matter.

    Like

  41. I think CE is living in an unrealistic world where only if victims would do X, all sexual abuse would receive justice and it would stop.

    But that is not reality.

    Jesus did not teach that if only every body would call the police and courts when they are sinned against that sin would stop.

    You will always have sin in this world, even if people call the cops to report it, because people are sinners.

    CE refuses to see or to acknowledge that even in American society,
    we have problems with systemic sexism, unconscious bias against women
    ,
    the numerous studies that show most men in general, and police in particular,
    do not believe women when we say we are being sexually harassed at work, or were raped.

    If we ladies call the cops and news gets out that we claimed to have been raped by Tullian, Bill Cosby, or whomever,
    we will be victim-blamed, and the men in question will not be held accountable.

    We will be told we “deserved” to be raped because we were too trusting,
    we should not have met alone with the man,
    we were wearing a short skirt at the time of the attack or harassment,
    so it’s “obvious” we were wanting sex with the man.

    When women do report to the police, it does not go well for them.

    The rapes are not investigated,
    and most cops think the women who report rapes to the police are lying
    (see the study I linked you about that).

    If the rape accusation goes to trial, which is what CE clamors for,
    the woman who was raped is subjected to psychological abuse and shame in the courtroom,
    the defense attorney will shame her,
    claim she is a slutty McSlut who “wanted” the sex with his client, that it was all consensual.

    Child sex abuse victims also do not like to go to trial,
    because they are “grilled” and victim-blamed by the defense attorney
    and they told they “asked” to be sexually attacked, that they “wanted” it.

    And CE harps on why don’t women call cops and go to trial more often?
    It’s because they get “raped” again by the cops, trial, the reporting, and the defense attorney after they come forward.

    It’s not easy to “seek justice” when one is having a mental breakdown
    and just wants to curl up in a ball in their closet and never leave the house ever again.

    The victim may have to physically sit in a court room ten to 20 feet away in person from the person who raped them, while the attacker stares them down and intimidates them.

    No victim wants to sit through any of that, it’s like being re-victimized all over again.

    It would be nice if all victims recognized their abuse was abuse
    and if they immediately reported it to the police,
    but that is not the world we are living in.

    We are living in a reality where many sexual abuse victims don’t recognize their abuse as being abuse until years after the fact,
    And many victims understandably don’t always feel brave or comfortable enough to discuss their sexual abuse with a person (police detective) they don’t know.

    Some women rape victims cannot be interviewed about their rapes by male cops, so the department,
    if they have female detectives, will send in a female detective to interview.

    It’s not always easy for abuse victims to tell another person about the attack.

    It can feel embarrassing or shameful to say, “the rapist sucked on my X here, and then he forced me at knife-point to lick my tongue on his X there.”
    – it’s humiliating.

    Nobody wants to do that.
    Nobody would feel totally comfortable going into details about what the rapist did to them.

    But CE is demanding they do so, and demanding that a quest for justice outweigh their normal human responses of feeling shamed or afraid.

    Sexual assault victims are shamed and victim blamed,
    they are shamed and nit-picked and criticized for what they were doing the night of the rape,
    then they get “grilled” and abused all over again by idiots online
    who shame and criticize them
    for not giving their rapist “due process”
    and for not calling the cops five minutes after the rape.

    You are part of the problem, CE.

    Like

  42. Lea said,
    Also, I think it has been noted many times, that overemphasis on celibacy, virginity, so called ‘purity’ etc, is deeply harmful to people who have been abused as children or raped. Elizabeth Smart went into great detail on this.

    So if people have stopped actively shaming people for these things (and they…have not really, witness your comment) that is a good thing, imo. The good of it certainly outweighs any possible bad
    — n —-

    I’ve tackled this topic before on my blog. It doesn’t hold up.

    I am and was talking about consensual sex.

    You were talking about consensual sex.

    You were talking about a boyfriend girlfriend relationship where it was “not hurting anyone.”

    The Bible does not support that (consensual sex).

    The Bible is opposed to rape and sexual abuse.

    I am sorry if rape victims feel triggered when or if they hear Christian sexual purity messages,
    and some churches could be more sensitive in how they teach abstinence messages,
    but that does not make it magically okay for sex before marriage moral.
    The Bible is still opposed to it.

    there was actually a study that came out about two years ago (available on my blog) that showed that shame can be a factor in discouraging people from engaging in consensual sex.

    I also have blog posts on my blog (with links provided) about women who said they regret being sexually active.

    one in particular was pressured into having anal sex with her boyfriend. She gave in and did it. After, she felt ashamed and regretted it. That was consensual on her and his part.

    Attitudes like yours are harmful to me, and they hurt me.

    You basically dismiss my life-long obedience to sexual purity as the Bible teaches it as being no big deal, it’s a partriarchal construct, has no value, etc.

    That attitude is very dismissive of people like me who did not cave in and have sex with our fiances or ex boyfriends prior to marriage.

    But that’s another point I raise on my blog: the virginity detractors don’t care about the feelings of the virgins, nope,
    they always show a boat load of feelings for fornicators who complain that the used chewing gum lesson they heard in a purity class in Sunday School when they were 15 hurt their feelings.
    All the concern goes one way, to the fornicators – not the celibates/ virgins.

    Like

  43. Lea said,
    So if people have stopped actively shaming people for these things (and they…have not really, witness your comment)
    — n —

    No, the trend switched years ago, I am in the minority on this.

    I am of the few who defends virginity and think churches have become lax on this. Most churches and Christians are not into shaming fornicators for being fornicators (again, see my blog, I have examples there).

    They SAY they support sexual abstinence, but in practice this is not borne out.

    I have many examples on my blog of Christians, churches, links to blogs by other Christians, who shame adult virgins for being virgins, who dismiss fornication as being “not a big deal” etc.

    But in the last few years, with more reports coming out that more and more teens to adults are not interested in having sex,
    conservatives have been fretting about that, and I’ve actually seen a small number of liberals defend people for not having sex, because some of the liberals are angry at the conservatives for shaming singles for not having sex and for not having babies.

    The positions have flipped a little bit.
    I now see conservatives upset that people are not having sex. It bothers them. They complain about falling natalism rates.

    On the reverse side, I’ve seen a smaller percentage of liberal feminists who have ladies write them who say “I am not having sex, my friends are teasing me, what should I do” and the columnist will reassure them it’s OK for them to be a virgin.

    There are male incels over the last few years who are murdering women
    because these teen boys and young men feel humiliated at being virgins at age 18 or older, because they will be ridiculed by their peers for being virgins.

    Movies and magazines send the message to them that it’s “weird” or messed up to NOT be having sex.

    Virginity is usually mocked in our culture, in and out of the church (examples on my blog).

    Writers and average people on Twitter will often retort to someone they are arguing with,

    “I bet you’re a virgin living in your mom’s basement.”

    That is a common insult.

    But you cannot ‘slut shame’ anyone now, oh no. You cannot and must not comment on sexual behavior run amok. That is considered mean and judgmental, but it’s OK to mock someone for being sexually abstinent.

    Also check out articles by religious journalist Julia Duin.
    She has been documenting for 20 or more years now how Christians have not, and are not, defending virgins or the concept of virginity, not even the conservatives. They have actually gone the other route and are saying “fornication is not a big deal.”

    They insult adult virgins and question our motives, accuse us of having “spiritual pride” (when it’s the church when I was a kid who taught me to stay a virgin until marriage. Same church is now telling me that I am supposedly “spiritually prideful” for doing what they taught).

    This idea that most of the church is into shaming or judging fornication or is into “idolizing” virginity or making too much out of sexual purity is not based in reality.
    The situation has been in the reverse for the last 20 – 25 years now.

    Like

  44. Mark said,
    I want to tread carefully on this one. I would much rather the church celebrate the life than do what, for example, Christian High Schools have done – shun the pregnant woman while embracing the impregnating man. I also think that fornication is a one-time event, and the church should not continually require penitence and re-repentance when it has already been given.
    — n—

    I am not saying churches should “shun” pregnant fornicators.

    Churches and celebrity Christian bloggers for the past 15 or more years have been defending and excusing fornication.

    The vast majority of preachers, Christian bloggers, and churches do not speak up or sermonize on behalf of celibacy or against fornication, which is a mistake.

    The church does nothing to help or celebrate the single / childless/ celibate adults among them.

    The contrast is striking.

    Then we celibates and adult virgins often get told that the Bible really doesn’t support our lifestyle, we are informed that sex outside of marriage is really quite acceptable.

    If you are going to help the lady who has sex outside of marriage when she gets pregnant,
    what is your church doing to help or to recognize the single adult celibates who may have physical health problems, or other needs?

    When is your church going to hold a “congratulations on going back to college” or “congrats on paying off your mortgage” parties or hold ceremonies for the non-married celibates among you?

    When is your church going to have those little ceremonies where singles / celibate are asked to step forward to be prayed a blessing over in their singleness and celibacy by the pastor?

    Only the mothers of infants get that sort of thing. (They also get mother’s day ceremonies in church.)

    For many years, I was wanting to have sex outside of marriage even when I was engaged to my ex, but I did not cave in and have sex.

    Did anyone clap me on the back for that? Did I get moral support in that? No.
    I had to go that alone.

    No, I go online to see everyone arguing that God is actually fine with pre-marital sex,
    I don’t get a handshake or a certificate to Denny’s.

    I get nada squat.

    But the fornicators get parties, recognition, 45 blog posts per day by progressive and conservative Christians reassuring them that in spite of all their pre marital sex, God thinks they are still “pure,” and he thinks they are great.

    And I’m sorry, but most fornication I’m seeing reported in articles, blogs, etc, is not a “one time’ thing.

    It’s a life style for many, even for a lot of Christian singles who have reported in studies that last ten years that a lot of them are even having sex on a first date with their date. Does that sound one-off to you?

    A lot of teens and adults today want to be able to have all the consensual sex they want to outside of marriage,
    but they get angry or upset if anyone says, “I don’t see the Bible supporting that.”

    The women in particular want to view it as sexism or oppression if or when anyone points any of this out.

    (I do think churches could do a better job of holding both sexes accountable. Many of them do put all or most of the onus on women, especially in their sexual purity lectures, which is sexist.)

    Like

  45. The people promoting the “loving sex before marriage” seldom discuss or even look up information such as this:

    (Link): CDC Report: Virgin Teens Much Healthier Than Their Sexually Active Peers (2016 Report)

    I really don’t care to keep discussing this subject.

    I came back here to talk about CE’s horrible views about why and how sexual abuse victims don’t report their sexual abuse.

    (When he was at my blog over a week ago, he left Bible verses in one comment to Celibate Shame me for being celibate. That was the only reason I mentioned it here.)

    Like

  46. Lea said,
    Maybe I’m old fashioned because I don’t really want to hear about strangers sex life OR lack thereof.
    (etc)
    — n–

    Neither do I.

    But it’s crammed down my throat by Christians who keep doing blog posts and sermons and from online Twitter commentators about how, “if you’ve had sex outside of marriage, that’s okay, you are still “sexually pure”.

    You are missing my point, too.

    I also found your response to me in that instance to be pretty obnoxious.

    Many preachers are and have already been discussing sex every Sunday morning for years. I have examples on my blog.

    Please do tell, in the last 20 years, where is all this church-sponsored pro-celibacy going on, because I have not seen it at all. It might be nice if it actually existed.

    Preacher Mark Driscoll is notorious for blogging, writing about, or sermonizing on sex all the time, or he used to be. He would sexualize everything.

    I have a blog post on my blog with a link to an article about a pastor who says “the Non-Christians will know us by our amazing sex lives” and he recommends that Christians talk to their friends about the great married sex they are having.

    As a celibate, I don’t want to hear about your “amazing sex life” whether you are single or married.

    If churches are going to go on and on about how great sex is,
    and how God will forgive the sexual sinners for sexual sin,
    where is the equal time for celibacy and celibates?

    If you’re going to preach on how great sex is this Sunday,
    at least have the courtesy of following up the next week by sermonizing on the benefits and godliness of celibacy the following Sunday sermon.

    But I never see this.

    The assumption by most Christians is that everyone is having sex, already having sex, or will be having sex outside of marriage (or inside of marriage).

    And that is discouraging and depressing to those of us who are abstaining.
    We don’t get pep talks or reassuring blog posts or sermons.

    I am not some “pervert” who wants to hear all about someone else’s sex of lack thereof. That is not what I am getting at.

    Churches are unbalanced in how often and what they address.

    You misrepresent me and my views.

    Fornication is a sexual sin. The Bible has an expectation of celibacy for unmarried adults, whether they are Hetero or LGBT.

    Yet these topics are never addressed from the pulpit.

    And they should be, especially when the pastor is going to deliver yet another sermon on the wonderfulness of married sex, or “God Forgives Sexual Sin,” for the millionth time.

    I would expect the occasional sermon to be about sexual purity and for the pastor to remind all the adults in the room that sex is for marriage only,

    and the pastor should remind any married couples present that means staying faithful to your spouse

    (the usual Christian assumption is that married couples are living sexually pure lives, when a lot of them are on Ashley Madison site looking for extra-martial affairs, or they are hiring call girls. I have examples of that on my blog too, with links to reports and studies.)

    Expecting Christians or preachers to deliver balanced coverage of relationship or sexual issues is fair, I think.

    That is not kinky or weird of me to expect or hope for, as you were suggesting.

    The only time sex is mentioned in the pulpit any more these days is to say how great sex is and to promote it (in the manner of Mark Driscoll) and to molly coddle the sensitive egos of the fornicating adults who want to hear that their fornicating is really okay with God.

    They don’t want to be held accountable for their actions.

    There are pastors in sermons and blog posts who shame celibate singles for being celibate singles.

    Such pastors assume we singles and single celibates are “weird” or there is something “wrong” with us if we are not having sex and not dating or are not married by the time we are 30.

    I have examples on my blog, with links to blog posts, by Christian pastors who say single men who are not dating are “in sin,” and that they are immature, video game obsessed, weirdos.

    I don’t often see this sort of insulting rhetoric aimed at adults who are having sex before marriage.

    The insults by Christian pastors and bloggers are aimed at adults who are single for being single or about celibacy.

    I have more posts by other pastors who say never married adults who are my age are losers, nobody would want us anyway now because we are too flawed to marry.

    Southern Baptist Al Mohler is yelling at us single celibates to go out and get married and have more babies, because he thinks non-parents are “not human.”

    About a week ago, Julie Anne just did a post on this very blog about Al Mohler’s “being a human means being a parent.”

    Just about a month ago I did a blog post about conservative organization National Marriage Project’s Bradford Wilcox releasing a paper LAMENTING that more single adults today are celibate.

    He is upset that more single adults are not engaging in fornication. He thinks it is a dire omen.

    And you seriously expect me to believe that most of conservative or Christian culture today is idolizing or making to much out of celibacy and sexual purity and shaming fornicators for having sex outside of marriage?
    No, that is not the case and hasn’t been for years now.

    There is a ton of anti-celibacy bias out there, not just in liberal and secular culture, but from Christians and going on in churches now, too.

    The male incels (male celibates) are driving cars into women and murdering women on streets because they are angry, they feel like losers, because they are not having sex,
    and the culture does mock and ridicule people for not having sex.

    The incels are not imagining that.

    If an incel walks into most churches these Sundays, he is likely going to hear in the sermon that God expects for him to be married by now, a father of three children, if he isn’t married, he has failed,
    and that he is a repressed, messed up person, if he’s not dating and isn’t having sex.

    Because all “normal” people are having sex, is how that thinking goes.

    Women and girls are going to hear similar about themselves if they go to a church this Sunday.

    It’s considered weird, backwards, out of step, and unheard of these days, even by Christians, to be sexually abstinent when you’re over your mid twenties.

    Like I was saying, I don’t care to discuss this further with you,
    but I was scrolling up to see the posts by CE and Mark and saw this other one by you.

    Like

  47. Attitudes like yours are harmful to me, and they hurt me. You basically dismiss my life-long obedience to sexual purity as the Bible teaches it as being no big deal, it’s a partriarchal construct, has no value, etc.

    I disagree with you. If it hurts you, it is because you take it incredibly personally. You do you. Other people will do them. These are personal decisions and none of them should be considered hurtful.

    And yet, you are the one yelling about ‘fornicators’. You think no one should take that personally? Your way of speaking about this comes off as vicious. I don’t know if that is your intent, but that is how it comes off.

    Consensual sex and rape/abuse may both be sins to you, however they are not of equal weight and this blog is specifically about one and not the other. One is personal, the other is harm directed at another person.

    Like

  48. But that’s another point I raise on my blog: the virginity detractors don’t care about the feelings of the virgins, nope, they always show a boat load of feelings for fornicators who complain that the used chewing gum lesson they heard in a purity class in Sunday School when they were 15 hurt their feelings. All the concern goes one way, to the fornicators – not the celibates/ virgins.

    How is this helpful? You are trying to shame the people who have chosen differently? You don’t see why this is a problem???? You are the one who is insulting people, and complaining about baby showers.

    I am a ‘choose how to live your own life and let others do the same’. And don’t actively harm other people with your actions. But living your own life, or having a different opinion on this is not harmful. I’m not trying to hurt you, I certainly haven’t insulted you or insisted you change your mind. I am content for people to make their own choices. If that is a choice you are happy with, then go with it.

    But maybe you aren’t happy. You don’t actually sound happy.

    Like

  49. CP, I did want to point out that I do agree with you – there is a lot of sin-worshiping in the church today. I don’t get it. Who better to speak on virginity – the 45-year-old single guy who has remained pure, or the 20-something who went from bed to bed in college and then was converted? Who better to talk about avoiding alcohol? The woman who grew up with an alcoholic mother and father and chose never to get drunk, or the woman who partied and got drunk every weekend?

    I don’t get why it’s somehow cool and sexy to bring someone in to talk who completely gave into whatever sin, vs. someone who successfully resisted for years. I think this comes back to TT – they’ve even forgotten the repentance and restoration part. TT is hip and relevant for us Christians today BECAUSE HE IS AN ADULTERER!

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Julie Anne, and others,

    After this, I’m backing out. The resistance to call the cops is just mind boggling.

    In today’s Yahoo News, the following is an article regarding the SBC sex abuse.

    PLEASE NOTE THE WORD, “POLICE”.

    https://sports.yahoo.com/southern-baptists-ready-put-spotlight-143334311.html

    In that article, the following is noted:

    “Among abuse survivors, there are sharply contrasting views about the SBC’s anti-abuse efforts.

    Jules Woodson, a Colorado Springs-based flight attendant, says she was sexually assaulted by her youth pastor in Texas two decades ago at age 17 and received no support after reporting the incident to her senior pastors. Only in 2018 did Woodson file a police report, eventually prompting the former youth pastor to apologize and resign from his current church position.

    NOTE: AFTER RESISTANCE, SHE DID INDEED FILE A POLICE REPORT

    The upcoming conference, Woodson says, “is giving off a false hope that the SBC is taking this seriously.”

    “I have not seen genuine repentance or genuine moves toward change,” she said. “It’s all words right now — it’s lip service.”

    By contrast, Megan Lively of Wilson, North Carolina, says she’s been solidly supported by SBC leaders since identifying herself as a key figure in a 2003 sexual-assault incident that contributed to last year’s ouster of the Rev. Paige Patterson as president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Patterson was faulted for discouraging Lively from filing a report with police after she told school administrators she’d been raped by a fellow student while attending Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Patterson was president of the school at the time.

    NOTE: TOLD BY CHURCH LEADER TO NOT FILE A POLICE REPORT

    Lively, one of the scheduled speakers at the conference, says she doesn’t consider herself a “safe option” for the organizers.”

    NOTE: I’m on the side of filing a police report. Apparently no one here is.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  51. Ed, why would Rachel and others report to police if there is no law against clergy sexual misconduct in most of our states? Our laws are not always right. Regarding clergy sexual misconduct, only 13 states get it right and make it illegal. I hope the law changes.

    And please do not talk about consent again when referring to sex between clergy and congregants. I don’t care if a woman says it was consensual or not – there is no such thing as consensual sex when there is a power differential.

    Like

  52. Julie Anne,

    Because it was rape and/or molestation, or they were children.

    And let’s say that it is law in all 50 states.

    The counselor hat must be on before it’s against the law for TT. The power differential is based on that counselor hat. The word clergy alone doesn’t matter. The word counselor matters.

    These are adults, not children.

    Otherwise it’s nothing more than adultery, on all parties.

    And there is already a commandment against God for that in the ten commandments.

    You, and others here claim a power differential. That’s the part that needs to be legally proven. Just by being a pastor, that does not prove a power differential. In THIS case of TT. She claims he was counseling her, but he denies that. But he did cop to adultery.

    Yesterday, I did a Google search regarding the Catholics cuz I heard on the radio news about clergy abuse against children…i was working on a busy road, so I didn’t hear it all… But there are tons of lawyers that are at your disposal for clergy sex abuse. Plenty of advocates for the victims. Plenty.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  53. NOTE: I’m on the side of filing a police report. Apparently no one here is.

    NOTE: This is a flat out lie.

    It’s easy to lie about what people believe if you dont actually listen to what they say.

    Like

  54. “NOTE: I’m on the side of filing a police report.”

    This is NOT what we have a problem with. You are saying that we are SINNING if we don’t file a police report. You are saying we are SINNING if we discuss a person committing a crime unless charges have been filed against him and he’s been declared guilty in a court of law.

    And I quote:
    “I remember a line that used to be said when people get married. If anyone has any reason that these two should not be married, SPEAK NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.

    Don’t ya think it’s time to put up or shut up? It’s OVER. Unless someone is willing to take it to court.”

    “Leviticus 5:1 Contemporary English Version If you refuse to testify in court about something you saw or know has happened, you have sinned and can be punished.

    So what’s more important, Mark…Justice or expulsion from school? Like I said, excuse after excuse after excuse. What’s it gonna take to change the mind of people to call the cops?”

    Trying to sugar coat and minimize what you are actually saying is “bearing false witness” that IS a sin. No one here has said don’t report it to the cops. What we have said is that victims can CHOOSE whether to report the crime or not, and whether or not they report, they can CHOOSE with whom they share their story – whether to make it public or not.

    And, there is also a FIRST AMENDMENT. Freedom of speech. We can say what we want when we want. It is not libel if we believe it to be true, and we are not intending to maliciously harm someone. It is not gossip if the story has already been shared publicly.

    We see the example of Jesus himself, who neither “put up” nor “shut up” about the crimes of the Pharisees.

    “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut 4:2)

    If you know the Bible like you say you do, then you should know that God does not take kindly to people who add unbiblical requirements on top of his holy law, especially those who use their additions to oppress the poor and powerless.

    Like

  55. Good grief, what’s happened to this thread?

    ChristianPundit, I apologize in advance, because this is going to sound harsh. In a lot of your posts, you’re beginning to sound like the prodigal son’s older brother. The one who refused to rejoice with his family out of envy and spite, because he was never feted with parties for being obedient all those years.

    And I say this as a fellow believer and an unmarried virgin, and well into my 40s too, for whatever that’s worth. I know it’s not much fun — it gets lonely and boring wanting to share life with someone special and not finding that person. I’m also aware of some of the nasty attitudes toward celibate people in recent times. It stinks. But so does “slut-shaming”.

    I see no reason to begrudge such happiness to my fellow human beings, especially since it’s the kind of happiness I’ve been longing for. Or to be envious of the help given to single mothers, or the celebrations for recently married couples (no matter how they started out). I’m not going to demand congratulations from anyone for having stayed celibate — I didn’t do it for praise, it’s nothing to be especially proud of, and I probably can’t take all the credit anyway.

    I disapprove of Tullian because he abused his position, he used people under his care, he broke faith with his wife, and he’s refused to make amends to anyone. In my mind, that puts him far below someone who’s found someone to love and trust, and who isn’t going out of the way to hurt anyone.

    Boy, do I need some sleep now.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. SKIJ, I see it both ways… I don’t think celebrations within the church should be zero-sum. I don’t mind celebrating mothers and fathers, but I can see that it is hard for those who are single and long to be mothers and fathers to watch others get repeatedly celebrated and never get their own turn.

    I also see that the difficulty can turn to contempt or spite. Just like people who check out for a few days during Valentine’s Day, or people for whom the holidays are the darkest time of the year. We do need to understand that people have different backgrounds and different stories, and not everyone finds Mother’s Day or Father’s Day to be the happiest times of year.

    I think, like with the Christmas carol controversy in schools, there seem to be two basic approaches. The first is to disavow all religious songs in schools and the second is to allow religious songs, but not necessarily carols from the same perspectives. I tend to appreciate the second more than the first. Why can’t we celebrate other things than mothers and fathers and veterans? What if the church nerded it up and picked some random group to celebrate – like national farmers day. If the church thinks it silly or whatever, maybe the first approach is better.

    Like

  57. Lea,

    It’s not a flat out lie at all. There is corruption in the church’s (reformed) that is pervasive, where felony crimes are happening, and ya wonder why your church’s have problems? Cuz no one is willing to do something about it thru the PROPER authorities. Clergy are not proper authorities.

    WHY do people run to the pastor when it is KNOWN that a child is molested? WHY?

    You have victims running to the pastor for guidance as to what to do, instead of bypassing clergy altogether to go straight to the law enforcement.

    You have people in your church, that run to the pastor to find out what to do if a spouse abuses you, instead of bypassing clergy altogether to go straight to a divorce lawyer.

    If you want to get rid of the abuse in your church’s, then by God use the services of government to intervene, instead of badmouthing the law enforcement.

    But instead, you guys put up with it, somehow thinking that church has AUTHORITY over your lives, and is a supreme power over the state. You think that preachers have POWER.

    News flash, there are tons of church’s out there that are not Baptist or Calvinist driven that has strange teachings about male dominance, or strange teachings that preachers have some kind of magical powers over your life.

    Then we have Mark, sounding like Annie Wilkes from the movie Misery regarding God’s authority supersedes man’s authority, yet Romans 13 talks about man’s authority for God. So, the moral of his story is to STAY AWAY FROM THE COPS.

    Common sense tells me that if someone breaks the law, call the cops. Don’t go running to the church to find out what God wants them to do, because as evidence points out, they are not speaking for God at all. The Bible is God’s word as to what to do. Romans 13 comes to mind.

    I know it frustrates law enforcement when church’s think that they are either ABOVE THE LAW, or can circumvent the law. It frustrates them.

    Over and OUT. For good.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  58. Over and OUT. For good.

    Ed Chapman

    I’ve heard that song before. From you, Ed. On this thread, more than once.

    Let’s see whether you mean it this time.

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  59. Ed, if you actually read our responses, it might help your argument.

    Right, Mark? I’m not retyping the stuff I already wrote because what would be the point.

    As for the other:

    I also see that the difficulty can turn to contempt or spite. Just like people who check out for a few days during Valentine’s Day, or people for whom the holidays are the darkest time of the year.

    I think the answer is not to stop celebrating everything that makes people happy, just because some people aren’t, but rather to be sensitive to people in your circle who might need a little extra care. I know after my last breakup I had friends making a point to make plans with me (and I was likewise reaching out) and if churches want to support all their members (including single/nokids) the answer is to actually try to support them, reach out to people who might be having a hard time, who just lost someone, etc, not to denigrate other people or stop supporting them because they are in a different place.

    I don’t think contempt or spite solve any of these problems. And if you are lonely, one of the things that helps is to lean in and accept invitations, make invitations, and push yourself to be sociable and widen your circle. If you want a ‘i don’t have kids’ party you might need to take some initiative and organize it yourself or for someone else.

    I think it’s interesting that SKIJ mentioned the prodigal son because that was our service last time I was in church and it was pointed out that the oldest son had a trash attitude, but it is SO understandable in some ways (particularly as the oldest child!).

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  60. Ed: “instead of badmouthing the law enforcement.”

    I admit. Life has struck me hard and persistently so I have not read all the comments in this comment thread thoroughly. So I may have missed the people on here badmouthing “the law enforcement”.

    But part of me wonders if Ed just throws things like that out like a magician waving a hankie to distract from the slight of hand he is trying to perform on the side.

    Or is it, a, “since you won’t run to law enforcement like I keep telling you too then, by not running to them, you are disrespecting and bad mouthing them.”?

    His posts and communication are strange, confusing, and appear to be disingenuous.

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  61. Mara, I have pointed out some of the issues with law enforcement and their treatment of rape victims. I don’t know if that’s what he’s talking about but if you are going to use the idea of law enforcement as infallible as your entire argument that they and the justice system alone should be the arbiter of what actually happened and what people are allowed to discuss then you better be prepared for some actual facts.

    And it just so happens that I just watched unbelievable, which is based on a true story where the cops brow beat a victim into retracting her story, prosecuted her for ‘lying’ only to find out the story was true, the rapist was serial and they massively messed up.

    Ed is unwilling to acknowledge any of this.

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  62. Lea: “Ed is unwilling to acknowledge any of this.”

    Ah. I see.
    He confuses legitimate concerns and criticisms of the multitude of well documented flaws within the justice system with bad mouthing.
    Ed lives in a culture that takes his testimonies and pain seriously. Because of this, he cannot relate to those that live in his culture where their testimonies and pain are minimized, ignored, disregarded, and/or deemed to be falsehoods.
    Gotcha.

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  63. Mara: Ed lives in a culture that takes his testimonies and pain seriously. Because of this, he cannot relate to those that live in his culture where their testimonies and pain are minimized, ignored, disregarded, and/or deemed to be falsehoods.

    Indeed. Perfectly stated.

    I think I also mentioned how cops let a literal serial killer get away with things for ages because they couldn’t be bothered to check on the word of a sex worker. I suppose facts are considered badmouthing when they don’t suit your point.

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  64. Lea, “pointed out that the oldest son had a trash attitude”

    I heard a similar sermon. I was thinking of the parable of the talents. The servant who was given one talent had a completely erroneous view of the master, yet the master reasoned through his words.

    I think the same thing is true of the older brother. He did not know the father. He assumed that the father did not want him to celebrate with his friends. He assumed that his father demanded rigid obedience without joy. But, that is not the heart of the father. When the father says, “all that I have is yours” – I think he was saying, “of course you could throw a party with your friends any time you wanted. You just assumed I’d be unhappy with that. In fact, I’d be partying there right beside you!”

    That has been the hardest remnant of Evangelicalism to work through and I still struggle with it – the cheap, frowning, judgmental god they proclaim. They never seem to get past the “God requires perfection” to the “Jesus paid the price for your lack of perfection, and now there is nothing but grace and thankfulness.” It always gets spun back into God’s displeasure.

    But, what is the father doing here? He’s not yelling at the older brother. He’s pleading with him to come join the party. He’s left the party because he misses the older brother and wants to invite him to join the celebration.

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  65. A bit of background:

    For the past couple years, ChapmanEd has been a (if not the) regular troll over at the blog “Wondering Eagle”, where he established himself as a Trump Fanatic. Direct quote: “I give Donald Trump Praise and Adoration.”

    He has shown himself there to be extremely thin-skinned and extreme in his responses, with a response time to any posting or comment so quick he may as well have been camping out on the blog sin-sniffing for any hint of blasphemy. His traffic there was frequent and long-winded, with occasional forays into barrages of Bible proof-texts. (Some of Eagle’s postings dealing with Trump had the majority of comments coming from Ed.) I’ve been counter-trolling him off and on in those same threads

    So what’s he doing here at SSB?
    Last month, while looking for something in the archives here, I came across some commenting by him from three-four years ago, so he’s been to this blog before. At that time (pre-2016), the comments here did not seem as politicized as the later ones at Wondering Eagle.
    So why now?

    I think mention of the Kavanaugh Confirmation had something to do with it. The Supreme Court Pack to overturn Roe v Wade, put Prayer Back in Schools, and return us to a Truly Christian Nation has been a Holy Grail of the Christian Culture War Crowd going back to Reagan, and that Grail is finally within reach. (And remember just who Anointed Kavanaugh as the Great Christian Hope.)

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  66. Mark, there is also a trademark twist ending in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

    In such an instructive story, any other Rabbi of the time would have ended it with the Older Brother the Hero because he stayed faithful and kept ha-Torah. Instead, the Rabbi from Nazareth flips the ending one-eighty.

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  67. That other Rabbi — the one from Tarsus — pulls a similar twist ending at the start of Romans 2.

    Romans 1 is a “decline narrative”, a genre we don’t use that much any more (at least not formally). Romans 1 should have ended/Romans 2 should have begun with a traditional genre decline-narrative ending such as “For these are the things which the Goyim do” exhorting the (Jewish) faithful to steer well clear.

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  68. I sometimes suspect that men who raise the loudest voices against sex abuse survivors might be the same ones who have crossed the consensual sexual lines against women themselves. It makes no other sense why they are angry at victims and blame them.

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  69. (And remember just who Anointed Kavanaugh as the Great Christian Hope.)

    How interesting, HUG. I have a lot of thoughts about the way people have acted about politics and Christianity lately but I don’t want to get too off topic. Suffice it to say I find stuff like this confusing, considering the people who are being held up as moral paragons.

    It makes no other sense why they are angry at victims and blame them.

    Julie Anne, I saw a quote somewhere about how people get angry at you because they know they have done things to you and I wonder if that applies sometimes, but more globally. Hm. I think it’s a bit of a mix of that and simple self preservation. If you have hurt women, it makes sense for you to try to hold up the idea that women can’t be trusted, so when they report you they can confidently be shut down as liars. I think a lot of the problems we have on this front are a combination of guys protecting themselves, and other men (and sometimes women) who get swept up in it.

    I don’t know how to fix it though.

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  70. @JulieAnne:

    SMASH THE PATRIARCHY!

    You do know “Smash” is one of the latest slang terms for sex?

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  71. @Mark:

    But, what is the father doing here? He’s not yelling at the older brother. He’s pleading with him to come join the party. He’s left the party because he misses the older brother and wants to invite him to join the celebration.

    Which is a one-eighty twist ending to the buildup.
    In the usual Rabbinical story of the time, the older brother would be the hero because he kept ha-Torah and his brother didn’t.

    Same with Romans 1-2, where the usual end of such a decline narrative would have been “For these are the things which the Goyim do.”

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