There has been a lot of twittering about Dr. Albert Mohler’s recent tweet:
many saints and exemplary Christians were unmarried and had no children! seems like they still played a pretty important role in the continuation of civilization. this is a macro issue, not a matter of individual failures
— elizabeth bruenig (@ebruenig) August 28, 2019
The irritation/rage I feel as a 39 yr old woman who's never married bc any number of men I could've married would have made a terrible partnership…and I'm deemed irresponsible for that. Awesome.
— Awesome Autumn (@aloudhendo) August 28, 2019
If that wasn’t bad enough. He posted this tweet to . . . make up for it???
Not sure how to respond to some folks, but two thoughts: 1. When a quote is from an article or spoken word, it might well be advisable to read/hear the source before going ballistic. 2. Quote blocks should be edited carefully. I own that one. Thanks.
— Albert Mohler (@albertmohler) August 28, 2019
The masses were not amused.
I did read the source. Even in context, saying "to be human is to be a parent" is still deplorable.
— Nate Carlson (@N8Carlson) August 28, 2019
I read it. “To be human is to be a parent,” is false in any context, and harmful. But beyond that, your posture of condescension in this tweet towards those saying they were hurt by your words only deepens the wounds you’ve already inflicted.
— Blake Mundell (@blakemundell) August 28, 2019
"People are taking my quote out of context! …… Actually I took my own words out of context, arranged them on a royal blue background with a fountain pen graphic, and tweeted them out myself."
— Jeannie Prinsen (@JeanniePrinsen) August 28, 2019
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I see why some people like Al Mohler are upset. It’s sad so few people are having families now–by choice or otherwise–because our civilization is dying off. I kid you not.
But this tweet was stupid. Apparently Jesus was NOT fully man after all according to the theology of Dr. Mohler.
I have lovingly disagreed with my dad for saying repeatedly that singles can never fully appreciate the love of Christ for His church. According to 1 Corinthians 7, widows and singles are forced to rely on the Lord in a way our married counterparts have never had to.
Singles–like marrieds–are called to serve others. Not live for our own pleasure. The church provides few role models for us. My health did not allow the old maid missionary route which was the only godly alternative to marriage my church offered.
SOME choose to stay single to live for themselves and emulate George Clooney or the Sex in the City characters. Others, like John Hugh Morgan, stay single for the Kingdom of Heaven. Others have had this lifestyle thrust upon us through bad stuff we did not choose.
Al Mohler needs to ask people why they’re single. Instead he assumes ALL singles sit around playing video games or are radical feminist CEOs/stockbrokers/professors/unfeminine-because-cerebral professionals. Or pedophiles. (News flash! Most pedophiles are married men. The Southern Baptists are having their own problem with pedophile clergy so they shouldn’t laugh too hard at the Roman Catholics.)
Too bad men like him weren’t around to tell Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and the Apostle Paul how they should “man up” and settle down with wives and kids. God might have actually been able to use them then. Eye roll.
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So many things I could say (and may later) but…cat’s ‘parent’. Elephants ‘parent’. Parenting is distinctly not a ‘human’ specific thing.
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Also, Mohlers all ‘why are people so mad at me?’ when he LITERALLY dehumanizing anyone who hasn’t procreated. Bro. Stop.
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Gotta Outbreed all those Heathens.
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They don’t seem to realize how insanely racist/nationalist this whole line of thought tends to be. Newsflash, the world isn’t running out of people…they’re just not his people. That’s what this is all about.
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First century Christians didn’t use breeding as the sole means of winning souls. Cough. Cough.
The elephant in the living room no one addresses. Too many church goers have walled themselves up in their comfortable gated communities with spouse and kids and smiled complacently while the heathen went to Hell.
Al Mohler needs to worry more about fulfilling the Great Commission than the “be fruitful and multiply” part he obsesses with. But maybe Lea is right about Christians of color not counting with him.
https://www.johnhughmorgan3.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/false-assumptions/
John Morgan is a devout Christian angry at the way Mohler and others have turned marriage/procreation into an idol. That’s not Christianity but a fertility cult.
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@Rachel Nichols:
But the Puritans did.
“We evangelize our children.”
AKA “Bedroom Evangelism”.
Which is easily seen as a result of mixing a Gospel of Personal Salvation and Only Personal Salvation with “My DNA” biological imperative.
Didn’t the ancient Jews keep having problems with the surrounding peoples’ fertility cults?
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@Lea:
As well as Pure Darwinism.
(Which is a real kicker when you find Outbreed the Heathen in a package deal with Young Earth Creationism.)
When Darwin used the term “Survival of the Fittest”, he was defining “fittest” in terms of reproductive success over many generations. Those who had the most reproductive success (more offspring surviving and reproducing) would dominate the resulting gene pool.
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The dismissive tone in his followup tweet was really revealing to me. He got a ton of push back from the original tweet. The least he could have done was own his own garbage. His best buddy, CJ Mahaney wrote a book on humility. I guess he hasn’t read it?
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People who can’t apologize for real wrongs, or hurts, or rethink positions cannot be taken seriously, imo. Pure hubris leads to a lot of bad decision making. Mohler doesn’t look well here.
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Mohler “misspoke.”
But it doesn’t help when someone feels slighted by his gaffes and instead of apologizing he doubles down or defends the gaffe.
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Exactly, Rachel. These guys always talk about being strong men as leaders – so, man-up and apologize!
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I tweeted at Mohler about this yesterday and conversed with a few others who left him comments.
A lot of people out there are under the impression that this is an aberration for Mohler, so they were willing to excuse this and give him the benefit of the doubt.
However, this is not Mohler’s first time to speak derisively of adult singles or to suggest that we singles are somehow second-rate.
Mohler has a long-standing attitude of believing (and publicly expressing in blog posts and radio programs) that marriage is better, holier, or preferable to singleness,
and he feels that all adult singles who are over the age of 25 are slackers, losers, in sin, and shirking their “duty” (to society and/or God, I suppose),
This, even though the Bible, by the time of the New Testament, does not command any one to marry and have children, and it says in 1 Corinthians 7 it is preferable for believers to stay single rather than to marry.
I have several blog posts about Mohler on my blog, not just with my own commentary, but excerpting editorials by other people who have repudiated Mohler’s views on marriage / singleness, and some of those editorials date back to 2006.
Here is one of my posts about Mohler’s dismal view of singleness on my blog, which has links to other people’s sites with even more information:
(Link): More Anti-Singleness Bias From Southern Baptist Al Mohler – Despite the Bible Says It Is Better Not To Marry
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Do I want to belong to a faith or attend a type of church or belong to any denomination whose members tell me upfront
(and they’re so comfortable with this view, they even announce it on their social media!)
that I am not “human” unless I am married and/or a parent,
and yet, I remain, (due to circumstances) single and childless?
(And some adults stay single (Link): due to choice)
No, I do not.
And yet, Christians such as, but not limited to, Al Mohler of the Southern Baptists despair and wonder why so many are leaving churches and/or the faith itself.
We’re not leaving because of
….(these are Mohler’s and the typical conservative Christian’s incorrect assumptions as to what motivates a person to leave the faith or the church)….
Feminism, secularism, selfishness, a hatred of The Nuclear Family, a hatred of Marriage, a hatred of God,
or lack of rock music in church worship services, lack of coffee shops in church buildings, or because the pastor isn’t wearing hip, trendy “skinny jeans.”
Those are not the motivators or reasons why some of us walk away from either Christianity, or from church(es), or from very conservative theology.
We’re walking away precisely of things like the condescending, insensitive attitudes and comments of conservative Christians such as the Al Mohlers who think it’s perfectly fine to make all sorts of assumptions about adult singles and to communicate we’re not as “human” as those who marry and have children.
Go look in the mirror, Al, if you want to know WHY a lot of people, including childless (or childfree) singles have left the Christian faith or the church. You and guys like you have played a role.
Accept that responsibility, Al, and stop trying to pass the blame on empty church pews to “feminism,” “liberalism,” and all the other, usual boogey-men you like to blame.
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Rachel said,
///// “Others, like John Hugh Morgan, stay single for the Kingdom of Heaven. Others have had this lifestyle thrust upon us through bad stuff we did not choose.
Al Mohler needs to ask people why they’re single. Instead he assumes ALL singles sit around playing video games or are radical feminist CEOs/stockbrokers/professors/unfeminine-because-cerebral professionals. Or pedophiles. (News flash! Most pedophiles are married men.” /////
Please be careful about John Morgan.
That guy stalked me over a period of about two or so years at my blog, via e-mail, and on Twitter.
I politely asked him repeatedly over a two year period to stop asking me to give him my real name and other personal information, and he did not respect my wishes.
(If you search for his name, “John Morgan” on my CP blog, you can find posts about that.)
I think I know what you mean about “Al Mohler needs to ask singles why they’re single,” because he, like a lot of other Marriage-Worshipping Christians almost always incorrectly assume that all never married, women adults are never married because we are all man-hating feminists who placed career as a priority over getting married.
However, from the way you phrased it, I have to say it’s not Mohler’s place to ask anyone why they are single, as it’s none of his business.
Additionally, it’s not up to Mohler, or any other Christian, for that matter, to play Judge and pass judgement on other people’s life choices or circumstances concerning marriage or natalism.
If someone wants to put themselves first – say, travel the world, and they think having kids or getting married would act as a hindrance to that dream – that doesn’t bother me in the least.
It’s not any Christian’s right or place to deem such a person as “selfish” and imply it’s “wrong” for that person to live for him or herself.
(That’s not why I am personally still single at my age – pursuing some grand dream – but I’m not going to begrudge another adult their choices or goals.)
It is true that most pedophiles are married, and they are not single or celibate.
I have at least two (maybe more) posts on the CP blog about that, here is one (this post also contains links to yet more blog posts at the CP blog or articles on other sites by other people):
(Link): Article About Doctor Pedophile from WSJ Mentions His Unmarried Status – Why?
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Chritianpundit:
I left the Southern Baptist world after 45 years. Just cannot stomach the nonsense any longer.
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https://www.pccmonroe.org/mohler-and-mormons.html
Anyone else hear about this? Happened 6 years ago.
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As far as living for yourself as a Christian there is Romans 14:7-9. Also 1 Timothy 5:6.
Neither Al Mohler nor I have the authority to judge others. That’s God’s department.
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Never marry a man who can’t apologize. (Or a woman HUG.)
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Sigh… It is not the first time Mohler has said something unreasonable on the topic of marriage being a necessity for Christians, but now parenthood is also a requirement? I guess he forgot this verse: “For it is written: Rejoice, childless woman, who does not give birth. Burst into song and shout, you who are not in labour, for the children of the desolate are many, more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband.” (Galatians 4:27, HCSB).
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Regarding Romans 14:7-9 and etc (as quoted by Rachel) – living for the Lord, etc.
I did that for about 40 or more years of my life, and it didn’t bring me joy, peace, purpose, or meaning – all of which a lot of Christians say it will.
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The Bible doesn’t sound as “pro family,” “pro parenthood,” and “pro marriage” as Christians like Al Mohler like to suggest.
A few examples of that:
Luke 14:26:
“Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple”
– Jesus of Nazareth
Matthew 28: 48 – 50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
– Jesus of Nazareth
1 Corinthians 7
…Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do
….Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
… I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided.
An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit.
But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.
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I don’t know why it suits Mohler to put singles in a box and demonize them. There are all sorts of societal issues, besides even the pervasive toxic masculinity that are keeping people single. For example, people don’t want to marry when they can barely pay their student loans (the average is 21 years of repayment), and are living in their parent’s basement to save expenses.
The Baby Boomers grew up in a world where all of the manufacturing capacity was bombed to oblivion in all of the industrial nations… except the US. The US could sell everything it made and workers could essentially make as much money as they were willing to spend the hours doing it. That gravy train lasted until the mid 70’s when our industrial dominance fell, industry by industry as other nations initially copied, then surpassed us.
So, back to Mohler… in that myopic view, the money required to have a family is simply waiting for someone to work hard enough to earn it. Unfortunately, it’s not the case. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, minimum wage would have to be $24 today to have the same economic value as it had from the 50’s to the 70’s. And it’s not just minimum wage. Productivity growth has been essentially linear since then and overall wage growth is more logarithmic.
So, even economically speaking, single people remain single because they can’t even afford to have a family. Maybe instead of pointing their finger at the poor, they should be figuring out why corporations are demanding more and more of the economic value from each employee. In “real” terms, my wage has been essentially the same for the last 20 years.
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I know someone with spina bifida. She won’t be able to have children and raise a family due to her physical limitations. According to Al Mohler, she isn’t fully human.
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I wonder what “other requirements” Mohler preaches in order to “be human?” Does he not fully know the Jesus of our Holy Scriptures and what He preaches and teaches, or is this “mole-r” trying desperately to build his own kingdom where he is pampered, entitled, and worshiped above and beyond the Living Christ? The proverbial “idolatry thing” within the evangelical pseudo-Christian complex…….worshippin’ man and woman above our Savior……….with Jesus becoming a fading memory within the “c’hurch.”
I believe it is time for Mohler and his “friends” to go out and get real jobs and work hard with their hands like the Apostle Paul did in earning a living, so as to not be a burden to the Body of Christ. Perhaps it would actually benefit those “high priests of the business model c’hurch” in teaching them the real definition of “humility.”
Seriously, Julie Anne, CJ wrote a book on “humility?” I can only imagine that his inspiration came from a children’s story called “The Emperor’s New Clothes!”
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Just a quick side bar to the comment threads here……stepped on an old rusty nail hiding in my tree grove two days ago while stacking up piles of branches I trimmed, picked up, and hand delivered to my garbage hole located in the back forty. At the moment of impact, I felt “TRULY HUMAN” as I hobbled to the house to minister first aid to the deep wound, followed by driving meself to the clinic in receiving an updated tetanus shot from an amazing nurse!
When injury occurs in truly feeling “human,” most folks aren’t worried about whether they are married or not, whether they have children or not, whether they are Baptist or not, whether they “follow the right theologian” or not, or whether the “prosperity of civilization” will continue…..No!…..most folks just want their pain (being fully human) to go away so they can be well and live this short earthly life to the fullest……pain free and in a healthy state of mind, body and soul.
Too bad Mohler wasn’t near Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, listening to Him as He spoke/pleaded with His Father before His violent earthly death…….mohler might have learned something from the Master of our faith.
But then again, perhaps not!
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But when You Can Do No Wrong?
(And the man you see in the mirror agrees 110%?)
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@ChristianPundit:
This is called “Salvation By Marriage Alone”.
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@Mark:
Or inherit a pulpit from Daddy and Guilt/Fear Manipulate the pew peons (with GOD as your Enforcer) to TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!
Furtick Mansions and Copeland Private Jets can be quite expensive.
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Dear ChristianPundit,
Yes, I vaguely remember Mohler’s thoughts on “perpetual adolescents”, or some-such phrase that he came up with to deride older singles. The Wartburg Watch covered it some years ago. I haven’t read your blog yet, but I would like to, if I can find the time.
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Mark,
As in, why does he seem so intent on driving away from SBC churches a demographic that’s making up more and more of the population?
My strong suspicion: It’s because a) he believes he can’t make much money off them; and b) he feels he can’t control them.
That’s just off the top of my head. It could be that Mohler just isn’t thinking straight when he writes this malarky. But it could be a calculated effort to weed out the “undesirables”.
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Serving Kids, we aren’t like him so he doesn’t think we are worth knowing as individuals. Human nature. But the Holy Spirit should help us to rise above this.
There’s nothing inherently Christian about “family values” either. Hindus, Muslims, Confuscists, Jews are all family friendly.
In ancient Rome Christians were seen as a threat to the “family values” of the polytheists around them because they insisted celibacy was preferable to marriage in many ways. I recommend Destroyer of the Gods by Larry Hurtado.
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My favorite part is how he basically said, “Leave me alone, it was a quote!” Yeah, he quoted… wait for it… himself. So how is that supposed to make a difference? lololol
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Maybe he meant it needed to be read in its proper context. Sigh.
I belong to a group of childless women (different from child free who aren’t grieving.) This kind of stuff really gets them upset.
I’m sure Mohler didn’t mean it like he sounded. Lots of others say stuff and have no idea how hurtful it can be for some.
I’m pretty thin skinned myself. I am trying to put a more charitable spin on stuff I hear.
Stupid rather than malicious.
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@SKIJ, I was thinking “salvation through suffering”, but even that seems unlikely to succeed, so maybe it’s more some sort of sour grapes write-off as you suggested.
I’m hopeful that with the Millennials’ resistance to advertising, there is also a resistance to the same old religious rhetoric and gimmicks. #metoo and #churchtoo seem to be speaking louder than the attempts to demonize and silence victims.
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I somehow completely missed this amidst everything else that’s been going on in recent days, including concern about friends and family potentially in the path of Hurricane Dorian.
I’m curious what possesses Albert Mohler to push Jesus Christ off His rightful throne and determine how everyone else’s life should proceed. I have nothing against marriage and children; I’m sure I would have wanted 2 or 3 kids had I married as a young man. However, I’m not a young man anymore and don’t expect to bring any kids into the world should I marry at an age where I qualify for an increasing number of senior discounts.
What about those who are married but struggle with infertility? Does Mohler realize how hurtful his words are to those who prayed fervently and tried to have children only to have their prayers answered with the onset of menopause?
Yes, I read Mohler’s words in context. He made some interesting observations on a number of matters. Still, his words equating being a human with being a parent are no better in context than when they stand alone. And if anything, I wouldn’t be surprised if he doubles down in the future. It’s clear Albert Mohler hasn’t changed much since his infamous address to the 2004 New Attitude conference.
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Amen Singleman. Idolatry plain and simple.
Hence Mohler’s praise of the Latter Day Saints. Deciding they may be Christians after all. Because Family Values.
I think–generally speaking–married people with children are happier than singles. But so what?
Sick of Focus on the Family conducting surveys to rub our faces in it. Are they trying to stir up envy and resentment in the “have nots” at church? Seems like pride. Not very Biblical.
Christianity isn’t about happiness but holiness. The only perfect Man who pleased the Heavenly Father was a bachelor and left this world unwed at age 33.
The social psychologist Bella Depaulo refers to something called “matrimania.”
My own term for this in the church is matriolatry.
We claim to worship the one true God as revealed in Christ Jesus and put no other gods above Him. But our houses of worship harbor the idols of Hymen, Vesta, and Pluto.
BTW, I don’t advocate the playboy/playgirl hedonism lifestyle. And the reason Mohler needs to talk to Millennials about the reasons behind their singleness is a lot of youngsters of both sexes want to marry and find it difficult. Heaven forbid he or anyone else lift a finger to help them. Things have changed and it seems it’s even harder for young Christians to find spouses. Instead of making unfounded assumptions (Ya’ll are goofing off playing video games. Ya’ll are brazen harlots.) he should do some research into the complex reasons.
I’m still single due to a traumatic brain injury when younger. Developed a chronic iatrogenic disease. I can finally think straight but I’m housebound. And all the men in nearby churches are married.
At 46 I might bag an very elderly widower if I’m “lucky.” An Abishag arrangement. But I’m not husky and spry enough to lift him up to empty his bedpan and change the linens with him still in bed. Not the stuff of Hallmark rom coms and more depressing than happy. I jokingly tell matrons cheering me up with this prospect that he’d better be loaded.
Maybe Christians should play matchmaker more? I have. But the young woman opted out due to geography.
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Singleman, i wish the best to your friends and family. Hopefully won’t hit as hard as it may have!
The studies I’ve seen have said on avg. men are happier/healthier married, woman are happier/healthier single. Which is interesting. But like everything, varies person to person wildly.
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Maybe Focus on the Family can do surveys proving healthy people are happier than those with metastasized cancer too. Don’t have cancer Christians.
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Singleman I’ll mention the people near Hurricane Dorian in my prayers today.
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Thanks for the prayers. It appears Florida, where two of my cousins and several friends live, is being spared the worst of the storm. Dorian is now headed toward the Carolinas, where my sister lives.
I have my own share of health concerns and realize that will make finding a mate even more challenging. I’m also aware a lot of folks still single in my age bracket, both male and female, carry emotional baggage which could make finding a spouse more difficult. My last two relationships ended for such reasons and I’ve heard plenty of horror stories from my female friends about the men they’ve dated.
Rachel, regarding what you said about matchmakers: I believe Julia Duin wrote an article some years ago suggesting churches employ them. I’ll have to see if I can find that article at some point, but I have to run an errand early this afternoon on the way to my second shift job and that search will have to wait for another time.
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I went on a date with pretty much the only single in my age bracket guy at church and it didn’t pan out. He’s really nice but I know him better now and I don’t think he would suit me. The idea of a matchmaker is funny, but my last boyfriend was a setup by a friend.
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Not everyone is compatible Lea.
Even when younger, my intelligence and quirkiness scared the boys away. In the 80’s and 90’s we were all supposed to look the same and act the same to be attractive. Bland personality, blonde hair, long skinny legs, etc. Plus Christian guys wanted us 100% sweet and passive with little, mousy voices. My voice projects like a radio talk show host’s no matter how quiet and soft spoken I acted.
Cookie cutter clones got the dates, marriage proposals and families aka everything that makes life worth living. Joked to my BFF how if God had made all women exactly alike everyone would be happier and better off.
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@singleman: “Albert Mohler to push Jesus Christ off His rightful throne and determine how everyone else’s life should proceed.”
That is the paradox of authoritarianism. The pastor is NOT Jesus, but when he speaks, he says “Thus saith the Lord” (and that is not my quote, but a quote from a Reformed seminary professor!). When the leaders gather together to discipline, they claim Jesus’s infallibility guides their decisions (Matt 18). They expect and require instant, unquestioned obedience and refuse accountability. Yet, in all this, they would presumably be horrified if someone accused them of claiming papal infallibility, and much more if someone claimed they were usurping Jesus’s throne, but that’s exactly what they are doing.
@rachel “Christianity isn’t about happiness but holiness.” I think this tends to be Neocalvinist. Essentially, Piper says, Christians bring people to Heaven, but Kuiper would say, we bring Heaven to people. When we pray “Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven,” we are praying for God to make Earth more like Heaven – holy, yes, but also a place of happiness. My understanding was that at the layman’s level, the philosophical split between the PCUSA and OPC was social justice vs. individual piety. It’s unfortunate because that still exists today – PCUSA being warm and welcoming, but somewhat theologically dead, vs. OPC being more concerned about holiness, but legalistic and insular.
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What makes you say this, Mark? I don’t really agree at all. I feel like the theology I’ve gotten there has been richer than what I was getting at most non-denom/baptist churches the last few times I attended them.
OPC split in the 30’s btw, with PCA splitting off in the 70s. Are you sure thats not who you meant when you referencing social justice? I admittedly don’t know much about the OPC split, but that sounds more like PCA.
Rachel, I never fretted about not being blond. If I wanted to be, that’s an easy fix I’d just tell my hairdresser!
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Not a Calvinist neo or otherwise.
Some of the worst people I know live exclusively for their own happiness. I don’t know how heavenly their own lives are but they bring a little Hell into all around them.
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Also Mark, bringing Heaven to earth means trying to facilitate the happiness of others. Not just sealing yourself up in a luxurious MacMansion in a gated community with a hot spouse and perfect kids and only associating with other “perfect” rich married couples with cute kids on Sunday.
I’m sure you were referring to the former. Maybe you misunderstood my statement.
My new church is unusually warm and accepting of losers like me. Funny how being a “failure” is the only truly unpardonable sin in most white churches.
The old school conservatives will accept sin before life’s losers. Becoming more tolerant as long as you are outwardly respectable with lots to plunk in the offering plate.
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@RachelNichols:
<
blockquote>Hence Mohler’s praise of the Latter Day Saints. Deciding they may be Christians after all. Because Family Values.</blockquote.
Oh, it’s worse than that.
Mormons not only hit all the Baptist Metrics of Real True Christian behavior, they score higher than Baptists on most all of them. So by their own Christian measurements, Mormons are More Christian than they are:
https://baptistnews.com/article/mormons-southern-baptist-zombies/#.XXAky_ZFxaQ
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Got the tags right this time…
@RachelNichols:
Oh, it’s worse than that.
Mormons not only hit all the Baptist Metrics of Real True Christian behavior, they score higher than Baptists on most all of them. So by their own Christian measurements, Mormons are More Christian than they are:
https://baptistnews.com/article/mormons-southern-baptist-zombies/#.XXAky_ZFxaQ
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There are a lot of nice, moral people who aren’t Christians.
I refer you to C.S. Lewis’s essay “Nice People or New Men” from Mere Christianity.
https://www.merecslewis.blogspot.com/2011/03/mere-improvement-is-not-redemption.html
Neither Lewis nor Chesterton had any biological children. (Jack did adopt Joy’s sons though.) Lewis married late in life to a woman also past her prime and dying of cancer. Chesterton’s wife was sterile.
Also Corrie ten Boom, Amy Carmichael, and Gladys Aylward.
Dr. Mohler is not so much pro virtue as he is anti different. Wants us all to have the same gifts, talents, and personality types. That is not what any of the Epistles describe. If any people were in the minority in the early church they were the “winners” by worldly standards. The kind most Mohleresque churches shamelessly fawn over despite the warnings against such behavior in James 2.
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Lea, – sorry, generalizing. When I was looking at churches, we attended a PCUSA and the people were very welcoming, but the pastor was trying to pick his way through the Bible to make his points despite disagreeing with much of the historical narrative. Something like, “well, I don’t think the Exodus happened, but the spiritual lesson from the Exodus is…” When I heard this, I was reminded that the official split between OPC and PCUSA was over the inerrancy of the Bible. I can definitely see arguments based on human error creeping into the texts, but when large swaths of the Bible can be waved away because it doesn’t fit what I want it to say… I think the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.
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Rachel, completely agree. Those that follow Kuiper would say that we are part of God’s restoration of the creation. While there is nothing wrong with personally benefitting from God’s gifts, they are primarily meant to flow through us to bless others.
I’ve read papers where our relationship with those outside the church could more appropriately be called bringing Hell on Earth. That is, judgment, scorn, fostering despair and worthlessness. Because if God is found at the end of peoples’ ropes, then it’s somehow our Christian duty to get them there.
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A lot of sinners are defiant because they believe they are hopeless and can’t change. The Bible says differently.
We offer them faith, hope and love.
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Rachel… just caught this: “If any people were in the minority in the early church they were the “winners” by worldly standards.”
The early church grew primarily in urban areas among the outcasts in society. Today’s church is prevalent in rural and suburban areas, and not so successful in cities. I think much of that has to do with the emphasis on external religion.
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I love when people drag on single people for being ‘immature’ or something cause then I read an article like this:
This did no work lol.
https://www.newsweek.com/pastors-wife-gun-parking-lot-1457652
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ProTip: You have to check out the picture in the article because wow.
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This is anecdotal Lea, but out of all the churches I attended the biggest trouble makers in church were “perfect” suburbanite wives and mothers. In traditional gender roles too. By manipulating their hubbies and other men with tears and flattery. (And probably did what Paul called defrauding too. Cause nice girls are supposed to hate sex after all.) 😀
Only a few old maids attended. A library assistant. A school teacher. They were sad and physically unattractive but kind and went to lengths to help others in Sunday school, VBS, and the benevolence committee. They did not stir up trouble or thrive on drama like the Queen Bees did.
Most matronly mothers are not like those characters. But it’s interesting how all the drama was stirred up and sometimes initiated by the housewives.
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I couldn’t find the Julia Duin article on matchmakers. However, I came across a reference to Ms. Duin mentioning the subject in her book, “Quitting Church,” originally published in 2008. Perhaps I’ll do another search over the weekend.
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“I think–generally speaking–married people with children are happier than singles. But so what”
They are not. That is pro marriage propaganda marriage idolaters like to spew.
Also, some married people are miserable because their partner is selfish or abusive or so career-focused that he or she rarely spends time with them.
(Link): Part 2: Getting Married Makes You Happier? Again, No
(Link): Unmarried and Childless Women Are the Happiest, Happiness Expert Claims
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Rachel said
“Christianity isn’t about happiness but holiness”
I don’t agree, or, even if it’s true, then I would have no use for Christianity.
I’ve seen the marriage idolaters speak of marriage in those terms (that marriage is about “holiness” not “happiness”), and it’s one thing that unfortunately causes so many Christian women in abusive marriage to stick it out far longer than they would normally.
If Christianity cannot or does not bring a person (or me specifically) any sort of happiness in this life, if it doesn’t help me with problems I have, I have little to no use for it.
I will move along and find someone or something else that does help.
(And Christianity really did not help me with many problems I’ve had. I’ve had to look for solutions outside of the Christian faith.)
Jesus said he came to give people life more abundantly, which seems to indicate yes, he would like for you to be happy and to enjoy life.
Jesus chastised the Pharisees of his day for having sticks up their butts – he said he played the flute, and yet, they would not dance.
Romans says not only to weep with those who weep, but to rejoice with those who rejoice.
Or do you believe that God is
1.) indifferent to your happiness or
2.) God would rather you be unhappy / miserable?
Rachel said,
“My new church is unusually warm and accepting of losers like me. Funny how being a “failure” is the only truly unpardonable sin in most white churches.”
I wouldn’t measure myself by most church’s parameters.
Many churches may measure success by marital status or how much money someone has, but that is their hang up. You don’t have to judge yourself by their standards, or what society says.
I do agree with some of the other remarks you’ve made in this thread.
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Singleman said,
“I couldn’t find the Julia Duin article on matchmakers. However, I came across a reference to Ms. Duin mentioning the subject in her book, “Quitting Church,” originally published in 2008.”
Yes, and Duin also discusses how horribly most churches treat singles over 30 in her book “Quitting Church.” (I think she released a second edition of the book sometime after 2008)
Some chapters of that book can be read online.
(Link): Quitting Church by Julia Duin, online book
Duin also wrote articles describing how so many Christians today (and I totally agree with her on this) treat adult virgins and celibates like trash, while many of them hypocritically claim to support virginity-until-marriage / celibacy (they do not).
Duin’s article on that subject was called,
“Where are America’s virgins? Discouraging the virtuous”
Several years ago, Duin also appeared in an interview on a podcast to talk about how the church treats singles.
You can listen to it here, on Blog Talk Radio:
(Link): Interview with Julia Duin, author of “Quitting Church”
As I get into on my blog, I’m not so sure churches are safe places for singles to look for marriage partners (I explain why on my blog).
However, I find it hypocritical and odd that the churches who act worried about falling marriage rates among Christian singles refuse to actually do anything at all, or anything constructive, to help the singles who want to get married to get married.
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Good point about the matriolators using that phrase too CP.
😀 Can’t keep their narrative straight.
They tell singles marriage will make them happy. They tell unhappy marrieds it’s supposed to make them holy. Anything to fit us into their little cubbyholes of matrimony.
My new church loves me. That’s what counts.
And I believe God wants us perfectly happy. Just not right now.
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Rachel said,
“And I believe God wants us perfectly happy. Just not right now.”
Do you refer to death?
I’d like to be happy now, not after I’m dead.
I don’t have any use for a faith that doesn’t help me get my needs met now. I won’t need help when I am dead.
It’s good that you found a church where you feel welcome.
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I’m sure childless single women are happy–if by happiness you mean drunken partying and sleeping with a different person every night of the week like the bachelors are supposed to.
A lot of women–and men–find a life of meaningless, unbridled hedonism very unsatisfying as well as morally wrong.
Celibacy is as painful and depressing as it gets. As much fun as chronic illness and extreme poverty. The unending physical isolation is almost hellish.
I have the right to grieve. This study does not apply to anyone but stupid alcoholic, polyandrous playgirls.
This study is stupid pandering to lonely women like me crying themselves to sleep every night. Of course the painful, crippling illness I suffer from and worrying about homelessness due to dire poverty does not sweeten things.
Call me Marah, for the Lord has dealt bitterly with me.
Starting with TBI and a crippling, disfiguring disease at age 20. (One reason I wasn’t good enough for any man.)
I continue to obey Him. But He refuses to heal me or help my poverty and isolation. My parents are old and their health is failing. God has already let horrible things happen to me. No reason to think He will stop my afflictions now.
All I pray is He will cal me home shortly before my parents. Just a burden on both as they face their own health issues. Plus no one else ever gave a rip about me.
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Didn’t mean to rag on you CP.
If you’re happier as a childless single congratulations! I envy women like you almost as much as my acquaintances posting silver wedding anniversaries on Facebook.
Peace Pilgrim was happiest as a homeless person. It take all kinds.
If God would let the physical pain and exhaustion ease up and help me find a source of income I might experience happiness again. I could drive a car places and not be stranded out here 95% of the time.
Right now I struggle to clean my room. Basic household chores can bring tears to my eyes some days.
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Wow. This is… a lot.
I find that I’m happiest, single or in a relationship, when I have a lot of social outlets. Trips and girlfriend nights and church and so on. It’s not all about drinking and sex, although I do enjoy a beer or glass of wine – so do married people? That’s not super relevant.
All of those things are terrible and I am sorry. They are just not solely a result of singleness and they don’t apply to everyone, which is probably why studies come out the way they do. Not because happy single women are godless, drunken whores. Sheesh.
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Thanks. No girlfriends since all the women my age talk about are husbands/kids/grandkids.
I mention a book I’ve read or a hobby or current events or theology and get blank stares. Sometimes dirty looks.
The men have some interesting conversations but I avoid talking too much to them lest I raise eyebrows.
Maybe recipes, diet tips and hom decorating would be good conversation pieces? In despair. Without kids I can never fit in. And it’s too late now.
Even if my body heals I’m not going to try socializing. Pointless. Dropping out of life.
I had a guy express interest and signaled I wasn’t interested. Dried up, barren hag with nothing to offer. Dating this late in life is stupid.
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I mean, I have friends with kids, but most of my adult friends that I hang out with have adult kids which means more free time with no issues arranging childcare so that might be something you look for in friends? (I actually like kids so I don’t mind talking about them/hanging with them sometimes – I find being an aunt gets most of my kid love out).
Making adult friends was something I actively had to learn at some point but I find I do better when I make attempts to schedule things, and reach out to people. I think it was shonda rhimes that mentioned the ‘year of saying yes’ and accepting invites or plans with people and I try to do that. Even when I want to be chill at home, sometimes i just go out anyway and run into people or talk to strangers. I realized fear was the only thing stopping me from a lot of things so I actively push through and it has been good for me and lead to more close friends and a few relationships even if they haven’t worked out completely they were good for me. IDK.
I am honestly concerned about you though. I don’t know if you have tried therapy, but it might be helpful? You’re not a ‘barren hag’ that’s terrible. People have more to offer partners than kids. (A lot of older men already had kids and don’t want anymore in my experience anyway).
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@Rachel, “Call me Marah, for the Lord has dealt bitterly with me.”
One of the things God used on my journey was a sermon series on Ruth. I was always taught that Ruth’s attitude was horrible, and despite her attitude, God still blessed her. Instead, the pastor focused on this – Naomi brought her bitterness before God. It was the complete opposite of what I was taught growing up, that God didn’t have time for my little annoyances.
I am still working through those issues with God – if God is all-powerful, and all-good why did he choose for me grow up in an authoritarian, legalistic and abusive home? Why have the significant majority of people from my former church refused to open their ears to my story? Why do they insist that any so-called “abuse” I suffered was a result of my sin and rebellion and not abuse?
I feel like I make good progress, then I get stuck again. It’s a slow and painful journey.
For the pep talk, though, I look where I am now vs. 5, 10, 15 years ago and I can say that I’m much happier now with who I am than back then. That’s not always been the case.
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Part 1 Reply to Rachel Nichols.
This will probably take ten thousand replies, I apologize to all readers.
I don’t think just one can possibly address everything.
Rachel Nichols said,
“Didn’t mean to rag on you CP.
If you’re happier as a childless single congratulations! I envy women like you almost as much as my acquaintances posting silver wedding anniversaries on Facebook.”
You’ve been to my blog over the last two years and have even left a few comments there, but you obviously don’t know me or my situation very well,
as you’ve apparently not bothered to read most of my posts on my blog,
including how I view my own singleness and celibacy.
For example, this post by me on my blog:
(Link): The Netherworld of Singleness for Some Singles – You Want Marriage But Don’t Want to Be Disrespected or Ignored for Being Single While You’re Single
There is a tension that exists with women such as myself who’d like to be married but have never been married.
As in,
Yes, I’d like to be married, there are times it’s sad and frustrating that I am not, but I’ve learned to enjoy my life sans spouse, regardless of my marital station.
I suggest you do the same, or at least attempt to, because it sounds to me you don’t even want to try.
Mourn and grieve that you’ve never married, which may take months or years, then choose to let it go and move on already.
See a therapist and discuss this, if need be.
Find other things to focus on in life, instead of sitting around pining for a spouse and feeling sorry for yourself because you don’t have one.
You should try some of those things, rather than having this negative, critical, defeatist attitude that you cannot and will not be happy and enjoy your life unless you are married and having sex.
And stop depicting all single women but yourself as being whores who sleep around and do nothing but party, as you did in another post. That is degrading and sexist.
I was engaged to a man for years, and having a fiance did not make me happy.
I have plenty examples on my blog of women who married and marriage was terrible: their husbands were constantly cheating on them or abusing them.
Some women have work-a-holic husbands who leave them lonely because the husbands are always at the office and never spend time with their wives. Is that what you want? If you get married, that could happen to you.
Being married is not going to fix you, or bring you fulfillment, and constant happiness, if you are looking to a spouse or having children to be all those things for you at all times.
No man alive can meet all your needs all the time. A lot of men are selfish. Some are abusive.
I’ve done a handful of posts on my blog discussing all this, and you’ve been to my blog, so there’s no excuse for you to misrepresent me or my views, or to misunderstand me and where I’m coming from.
You should also read (Link): the recent page by a single female pastor that was published to CBE, where she discusses this tension,
that yes, she’d like to be married,
but she chooses to enjoy her life in the meantime and does not want married adults in the church treating her either as though she hates being single or absolutely loves it.
She conveys (as I do on my blog) that the truth is somewhere in between.
I used to find Valentine’s Day advertisements depressing because they showed women getting rings or flowers from the boyfriends, and that was something I wanted but wasn’t getting.
But as years went by, the Valentine’s day advertisements don’t bother me anymore. The passage of time helps with things like this.
Studies like the one I cited for you which say that single and childless women are happier than the married with kids variety is a good thing.
It knocks a hole in the Christian and conservative Nuclear Family Idolatry that they use to shame or marginalize single adults, for one thing.
Some of the most miserable people on the planet are married and have children,
and some of them are miserable precisely because they married an abuser,
or their kids ended up being drug addicts, school drop outs, and in trouble with the law all the time.
Instead of counting on a romantic relationship with a man to bring you happiness or stave off loneliness, consider platonic friendship.
Right now, some of the best relationships I have are with platonic friends. (Some of them are online.)
I get more of my needs met through those friends than I ever did with my selfish idiot of an ex fiance.
I just find it really bizarre that you’ve been to my blog off and on over the last few years, you’ve even left a few comments over there, but you don’t seem to know me at all, you don’t seem to understand me or my views about anything.
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Well, my sister is not a selfish whore and she seems happy as a campus minister on the go.
I was just thinking about the women Valentine studied.
Of course to be happy as a single you still have to be a gregarious, out-going, extrovert always on the go and surrounded by people and renting a room in a group home. That would be Dawn. At 34, she works 16 hour days and has no time for loneliness. Not all are cut out for this lifestyle though.
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*Dolan’s study
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I dont know where you got the thing about 16 hours days because that sounds exhausting.
I googled dolan and saw this quote though, which is more what I’ve been thinking:
I think a neutral happy is better than an actively unhappy, which the wrong relationship can cause. That’s more what this study seems to say.
We are all pretty self focused sometimes, but if you’re comparing the things that make you unhappy about being single with a generic idealized marriage you aren’t going to get a real picture I think? There are nice things about being in a relationship, but there are compromises you make too in a relationship and sometimes being able to do whatever you want is very nice, even if that thing is chilling on the couch. And that’s a good relationship. A bad one can make you SO much more miserable than being alone. but it is socially acceptable and even lauded!
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Rachel Nichols said,
I’m sure childless single women are happy–if by happiness you mean drunken partying and sleeping with a different person every night of the week like the bachelors are supposed to.
A lot of women–and men–find a life of meaningless, unbridled hedonism very unsatisfying as well as morally wrong.
Celibacy is as painful and depressing as it gets. As much fun as chronic illness and extreme poverty. The unending physical isolation is almost hellish.
I have the right to grieve. This study does not apply to anyone but stupid alcoholic, polyandrous playgirls.
Nope, that study applies to all women.
Including me, and I am over the age of 45, still a virgin, wanted to be married (and to be having sex with a spouse), but here I am, still celibate, with no wedding band on my finger.
I am not stupid, alcoholic, poly-whatever, nor am I a “playgirl,” either.
My mother was my best friend, and she died several years ago, leaving a hole in my heart – that is as painful as it gets; not being celibate, childless, and single. Please.
You make being single, in spite of having wanted marriage, sound like a terminal illness. It is not.
Yes, it’s painful or frustrating to not have a spouse when you had wanted one and still want one, but there are actually worse things in life.
You sound like you are sitting on a pity pot already and are determined to stay on it.
Choose to live life as it is, instead of what you had hoped it would be.
You have a very insulting, skewed view of things, including of other single women.
You’re also maintaining a few stereotypes about single adults and of celibacy that are held by a lot of Christians which only further to aid them in continuing to marginalizing singleness (and celibacy) as they’ve been doing for eons now.
The articles referencing the studies saying that childless and single women are happier did not, that I can recall, discuss them saying they are happier due to living hedonistic lifestyles, as you are suggesting.
On my blog, I support celibacy.
I don’t support “no rules at all” sexual activity,
I still believe that sex prior to marriage is considered a sin by the Bible’s standards,
but you seem to be implying I (or anyone who does not agree with your positions totally) support sexual immorality full stop, or that I am a harlot.
However, I disagree that “celibacy is as painful and depressing as it gets.”
No, it’s not.
I’d like to be having sex, and it’s not a cake walk,
and no, God did not remove my libido (as a lot of Christians erroneously believe),
but it’s not the end of the world, either.
Normally, I am sympathetic towards other singles, especially towards other women who are in my situation: over the age of 40, had wanted marriage,
but they are still single into their 40s,
because goodness knows, the church treats women in our situation as though we are garbage, which is not okay.
But after reading your posts and seeing your attitude, I am having a difficult time maintaining empathy for you.
You come across like those male incels I see articles about online.
Those Incels wonder why they cannot get girlfriends,
and one reason they cannot, is that they are seething with entitlement, sexism, rage, and bitterness, qualities that single women can pick up from ten miles away and want nothing to do with.
You’re giving off some of those same traits and vibes,
and even if you were to meet a single man today your age who’d be interested in dating you, you’d likely drive him away with your attitude.
Rachel said,
A lot of women–and men–find a life of meaningless, unbridled hedonism very unsatisfying as well as morally wrong.
Where are you even getting that from?
Where did I suggest that people should run out and engage in “unbridled hedonism” and etc?
I think you are making all kinds of assumptions about me.
Do you seriously think that the ONLY alternative to YOUR particular lifestyle choices and YOUR brand of Christianity is to run around being a prostitute and getting drunk every night?
There are more alternatives in life than just yours. Your way of living life is not the only helpful, moral, or good way.
One other study I saw several months ago said ONE of the reasons why so many women are happier single after they have been married and now divorced is that they are burden-free: they no longer have to pick up after two people (their spouse and themselves), and they no longer have to provide Emotional Labor to a husband.
(As a single woman, I’ve had male friends who expect me to provide them Emotional Labor, and they never return it when I need it.)
So, once these women divorce,
they have more time and energy to devote to their own needs, their own lives,
and they’re not as physically and emotionally exhausted,
because they no longer have to “take care of” a husband in addition to taking care of themselves and/or holding down a job as well.
That is the sort of thing the studies are talking about, not women getting drunk and partying every night, what are you going on about?
I lived a goody two shoes, clean, G-rated Christian lifestyle my entire life (and still am, even though I guess I am partially agnostic now), but living life as you think it should be lived – trusting in Jesus, reading the Bible, etc – did not bring me inner peace, joy, happiness, etc, either. That is just the truth of it.
But as I’ve left aspects of the faith behind, or have changed my views on it,
it has not caused me to run out and have sex with 100 men per night or to become a drunkard.
You seem to buy into the “Madonna V. Whore” complex, which suggests either a woman is 100% good or 100% bad, there is no in-between.
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Rachel said
“Well, my sister is not a selfish whore and she seems happy as a campus minister on the go.”‘
Then why did you even bring it up?
Not all single women are pleasure-seeking nitwits who just sit around using their extra husband-free time to get drunk or go to night clubs.
As far as I’ve been able to ascertain, there are pros and cons with being single,
just like there are pros and cons to being married.
Neither status is 100% a picnic or bed of roses all the time.
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Does it sound to anyone here like being married was pure bliss, a dream come true, and a Magical Fairy Land for this woman in the letter below?
And she’s not the only one. I’ve seen other married people who talk about marriage like this:
(Link): Dear Prudence: Help! I’m Glad My Awful Husband Is Dead
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Rachel said,
“Of course to be happy as a single you still have to be a gregarious, out-going, extrovert always on the go and surrounded by people and renting a room in a group home. That would be Dawn. At 34, she works 16 hour days and has no time for loneliness. Not all are cut out for this lifestyle though.”
I am an introvert with a lot of free time on my hands, but I am making changes in my life.
I’m not just sitting around on the internet all day complaining that I’m single and want to get married.
Not all single women who have learned to accept their singleness are extroverts with super awesome great careers and 450,000 friends.
If you are unhappy, you have to change how you view things
and/ or actively make changes in your life.
I’ve learned to accept my single status.
Does this mean I’ve stopped wanting marriage altogether? No it does not.
Does this mean I am thrilled with being single 24 hours a day, seven days a week? No it does not.
But do I sit around in a constant state of depression, resentment, bitterness, or rage because I’m single but wanted to be married? No.
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Rachel Nichols said,
“If God would let the physical pain and exhaustion ease up and help me find a source of income I might experience happiness again. I could drive a car places and not be stranded out here 95% of the time.”
I stopped expecting God to help me a few years ago.
I’ve taken steps in my own life to make changes, and so things are slowly changing.
If you keep hoping that God is going to fix things for you, heal you, send you a job, or whatever, I’m sorry to inform you, you’re in for a very long wait, because God for whatever reason, and if He exists, is not going to come through for you.
And that is another topic I cover on my CP blog: Unanswered Prayer.
You can spend years earnestly praying your little heart out and really hoping God will come through for you, but yet another year passes and no change, and another year gone by, and another, and another.
It’s up to you to figure out how to change things.
You said,
“I could drive a car places and not be stranded out here 95% of the time.”
You have parents, yes?
Are they willing to do something like get you a cell phone, pay that monthly bill,
or does Uber have a desktop app that anyone knows?
You can take buses, taxis, or use Uber or Lyft, if your family is willing to help you in that area.
Regarding:
“If only God would do X for me, then…”
What if there is no God?
What is there if a God, but that God has no intention of sending you the health / money / job/ spouse or the “X” you are asking for or need or want?
What then?
Instead of waiting on God for X, take steps to make things happen for yourself.
If I check in with you five years from now, are you still going to be in your bedroom wishing and hoping God would send you the capacity to drive a car and talking about it on this blog or on your own site?
(Link): I Sent You A Row Boat
Excerpt from that page, about a man stranded in rising waters on a roof top, praying to God that God save him from drowning, but the man dies and goes to Heaven.
Here is how it ends:
—-* —-
All this time the floodwaters continued to rise, until soon they reached above the roof and the religious man drowned.
When he arrived at heaven he demanded an audience with God.
Ushered into God’s throne room he said,
“Lord, why am I here in heaven? I prayed for you to save me, I trusted you to save me from that flood.”
“Yes you did my child” replied the Lord. “And I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter. But you never got in.”
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Rachel Nichols said,
Thanks. No girlfriends since all the women my age talk about are husbands/kids/grandkids.
That is true for a lot of them, but not all married mothers are like that.
I recently befriended a married mother who tells me she loves her two year old daughter, whom I’ve never met, but she says her daughter is a distraction.
Therefore, when she met me for lunch at a restaurant a couple months ago,
she asked her MIL to babysat the kid, because she wanted adult-only friendship and conversation time.
She wanted one on one time with me, she a married mother, and me a childless, never married woman. And we had a lot of fun gabbing and laughing.
Some mothers get tired of kid stuff and intentionally seek out childfree or childless women to befriend so that they can NOT talk about kid stuff, but about books, movies, and politics.
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Rachel Nichols said,
Without kids I can never fit in. And it’s too late now.
Even if my body heals I’m not going to try socializing. Pointless. Dropping out of life.
I had a guy express interest and signaled I wasn’t interested.
Dried up, barren hag with nothing to offer. Dating this late in life is stupid.
I’m sorry, but you are insulting me as well in that pity pot diatribe,
because I am childless, never married, and I am over the age of 45
-you can speak for yourself.
I am not “dried up,” and etc.
Not all men want a woman who wants kids or has kids.
Some men are Childfree, and they complain all the time in Childfree forums how difficult it is to find childless or childfree women to date.
Some men our age already had children with their first wife, they are divorced now, and they are not interested in having more children.
These men would prefer to date childless women, or women who cannot or do not want children.
You sound quite happy in your misery, actually.
In that regard, you remind me of this online friend I used to have, “Holly”
—HOLLY—
I used to have a friend I met online who is like you are now.
I am going to call her “Holly.”
Holly is several years older than I am.
She spent about a year complaining that she was lonely and friendless,
because her husband’s job sent him away to foreign lands for months at a time, and she didn’t have any female friends.
I spent the first year just empathizing with Holly, telling her I was sorry she was lonely and friendless
Then it dawned on me after a year, that she was still in the same place a year later she was 12 months prior:
me listening to her complain about being lonely had not fixed her situation or helped her at all.
So, I began trying to help her by giving her suggestions on where and how she could meet friends.
She shot down every single suggestion I gave her on how she could make friends.
She always had some excuse why she couldn’t get out of the house or go there or here or this other place.
Then, we friended each other on Facebook around that time.
On the forum where we chatted, she complained again about being lonely. So I gave her my phone number and told her to phone me if she’s ever lonely. She said thank you, that she would consider it. But she never called.
The next day, I visited Facebook and saw that “Holly” had made a Facebook post saying how lonely and friendless she was, that if she were to die at home alone, woe is her, nobody would ever notice, because she had no friends to call and nobody to phone her.
Recall, she typed this on Facebook just the very day after she saw my post saying, “Here is my phone number call me any time you need to”
A light bulb went off over my head at that point that Holly was a complainer.
Holly wanted to soak up and bask in other people’s attention and empathy online.
But Holly had zero intention of ever actually making any effort to change her situation or to change her attitude.
It was easier and more satisfying for Holly to play a victim on Facebook or forums and get people’s attention,
than it was to actually make any sort of change in her life that could’ve brought her the friends she claimed she wanted.
So, you know, I try to be empathetic with people,
but life experience has taught me to look out for certain personality types and not automatically buy in to the stuff they’re selling, like the Holly’s I’ve met along the way.
At this point I think your greatest enemy is You.
Not your circumstances, not being single, not health problems, not that God won’t send you what you’re asking, but it’s you and how you view all these things.
Great line from a character in a movie I saw who was giving a pep talk to a depressed, broke, unemployed, single, woman friend of hers who gave up on life, checked out, refused to get off the sofa for weeks on end, watching TV:
“You are your greatest problem. You are also your greatest solution.”
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CP, I think we could use more grace. I am definitely not qualified to tell someone what they should or should not be feeling. I saw a counselor and, if I can state it accurately, she mostly reflected back what I was processing rather than trying to paint everything as black/white reality.
For example, I had a hard time because my family and former church have refused to acknowledge my experience as abuse. She just said, no one gets to tell you what you experienced. I think for me, that means I don’t get to listen to someone else’s story, then tell them what they should or shouldn’t feel.
I don’t think God always promises the rowboat. God promises to be with us when the floodwaters take our last breath. God promises that justice will be done, but it’s not going to be in this life.
Rachel, I’m curious if you’ve thought about attachment style. I’ve read about childhood trauma and attachment. It’s possible that you are avoiding friendships because of avoidant or anxious attachment. I know women who would love to talk about theology with other men or women. They are not very common because, I’m guessing, many Piperesque churches would feel their manhood challenged by women who knew theology better than men, and thus they discourage that.
Having attachment issues and being an introvert… tends to be a lonely and sad life, so I completely get where you’re coming from.
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Thanks. I quit trying to make friends at 14 after we moved half a dozen times.
The last church an older female friend of mine (30) betrayed me. Manipulated her husband and other elders into firing Dad. No place to go. Boarded with grandparents that summer.
Sexual bullying in my new high school.
A bunch of emotional and physical abuse I can’t share even on my blog since no one would ever believe me. Reason my health is shattered.
Finally broke free. Struggling to rebuild a life from scratch at 46.
Things could be worse. But they could be better.
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I’m planning to read “The Body Keeps The Score” – I watched some videos of the author on YouTube and his insight is pretty amazing. He’s talking about a similar journey – recovering from PTSD. Also Diane Langberg has written on childhood/complex trauma. There’s a lot of good knowledge out there on treatment and recovery. I’m not quite ready to dig into all that yet, but it’s probably the next step to healing.
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Thanks for your concern Mark. You too Christian Pundit.
I have a plan for improving my situation. Just a matter of implementing it.
I contacted a counselor tonight. Thought you’d be glad to know.
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Mark, I read a book on attachment styles this year. Very interesting stuff, but I’m still processing it. I think there is too much emphasis on childhood sometimes, but I can clearly identify some previous partners with attachments styles now which helps me understand them better.
Rachel, I am very glad to hear it. I hope it helps.
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Rachel, that’s great news! It’s important to find someone you’re comfortable with. They’re there to help and they know they can’t help if you don’t trust them. Also, important to find someone who is licensed.
First meeting with my counselor, she gives me a paper with a set of phone numbers and says, if you have concerns with what I’m doing, I hope you’ll talk to me first to resolve them, but these licensing boards hold me accountable.
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Rachel – I’m glad to hear you have contacted a counselor. I always tell people it’s the best gift you can give yourself. I am currently seeing a therapist – not because I have to, but because I can, and because it’s helpful to get the good feedback. I’m trying to stay grounded as I go through some stuff and I think if I am being proactive and taking care of myself, I will be able to weather the storm.
Mark mentioned attachment bonds. Adam Young’s podcast discusses this in his podcasts. This is a good one: https://adamyoungcounseling.com/attachment-what-it-is-and-why-it-matters-so-much/
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