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I’m just going to plop this video link into this post and see what happens. It’s only 2 minutes, 36 seconds. That’s it. Below is my attempt at transcribing someone speaking off the cuff (a little challenging on the punctuation, just sayin’). ~ja
Are you a feminist? Are you a feminist? My guess is feminism has influenced you. And
maybe it’s not the kind of feminism that [says] true feminism means that all women must be lesbian, that we have to have contraceptions [sic] for everyone, that we have to be able to terminate babies if we want to. I don’t mean that kind of feminism. I don’t even mean the kind of feminism that says equal pay for equal work.
But I know you’re a feminist or you’ve been influenced by feminism when I tell you this: the Bible says, “Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.”
Case closed.
I can hear you, “What about this – what about that – my husband’s an unbeliever?’
Well, read 1 Peter 3. You’ve been influenced by feminism, and I know I have, because when I say these words, it’s difficult, “Wives submit to your own husbands,” – it’s a command.
You say, “Well I’m more spiritual, I’ve got a higher IQ, you don’t know about my husband.” “Wives submit to your own husbands,” that’s exactly what the text says, “as to the Lord.”
And then Paul ties it to the church, “for the husband is head of the wife even as Christ is head of the church, His body, and He Himself is the Savior.”
And so what do we do to try to get out of the feminism trap? I mean, I haven’t even said yet, “Wives do you obey your husbands?” and, “Sarah obeyed Abraham, even calling him what — Lord.”
I haven’t even gotten there, but we are so influenced – we are so eager, so egalitarian, not just with function, but with nature, and both and vice versa, that we can’t say “you know, we are equal, my wife is more godly than I am. She is more spiritual. She does all the things in light of Christ’s work better than I do. I think she is more godly, but I am the head of the household. Why? Because God decrees that.
And I’ll tell you what happens: people who are feminists have the same problem that’s found in antisemitism.
You say, “How do you equate those? Don’t call me names.” It is a revolt against the sovereignty of God. God says, “I picked the Jews and no one else. These are my people – my covenant people.” And everybody freaks out.
And then God says, “In marriage, here’s how it works: husbands are the leaders; wives are the followers. Wives are their submitters.”
And so the rebellion isn’t really against masculinity, it’s a rebellion against God, himself.
Are you a feminist?
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Christian ought to ask themselves these questions.
First, am I loving myself or loving her? Or maybe a better way to put it: Am I being sinfully selfish, or admirably self-interested, in serving my wife?
Three times Ephesians 5:28–33 says husbands should love their wives as they love themselves — an understated application of Jesus’s affirmation of Leviticus 19:18: “love your neighbor as yourself” (Mark 12:31). If such with every neighbor, how much more with my wife?
In the course of marriage, we make hundreds of small, intuitive decisions on a daily basis that affect our wives. We don’t stop to ponder and reflect on all these. But when we do, perhaps even multiple times a day, we come to moments of decision, emotional forks in the road. What is the loving choice and action here? Before taking action, I find it helpful to ask myself, Am I loving her or self? Is this selfish or self-interested?
Selfishness seeks my own private good at her expense. Self-interest finds my good in hers. Giving in is a lazy, selfish kind of “sacrifice.” Giving of myself is typically demanding and depleting, but it is gloriously rewarding to find my good in hers.
Dutifully or Joyfully?
Second, am I serving my wife dutifully or joyfully?
Begrudging service, perhaps surprisingly, is often a form of giving in. Something is not right when we grit our teeth and just get it done. We may indeed be doing what we sense is required externally in that moment, but if we’re not doing it gladly, we may be just giving in instead of truly giving of ourselves.
True masculinity is “the glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility.” Jesus gives himself up for his bride not dutifully but “for the joy that was set before him” (Hebrews 12:2). God calls heads to serve “with joy and not with groaning” (Hebrews 13:17), “not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you” (1 Peter 5:2). He expects no less of husbands. And his Spirit stands ready to help to those who ask.
Her Sin or Her Sanctity?
Third, am I catering to sin or pursuing holiness? First, it’s a question for me. In undertaking this “sacrifice,” am I giving in to my own sinful proclivities, or am I pursuing real holiness (which is typically the harder, not easier, option)? Then, turning to consider my wife, will this sacrifice cater to her sin, or contribute to her holiness?
Ephesians 5:25–27 addresses the motivation that drives true husbandly sacrifice: her sanctity. “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Our sacrifices and service will not prove neutral. They will contribute, in the end, to sin or sanctity. Which leads to a final question — and the one I’ve found most helpful.
Convenient or Costly?
Lastly, is my supposed sacrifice for my wife convenient for me or costly? Is it the easy action to take or the tough one? Is it a form of laziness in disguise, or does it require physical or emotional energy? Will this be personally convenient, or have some real, personal cost?
Jesus’s giving himself up for his church was not convenient. It was not accomplished by his choosing the easiest, laziest path. And not just at the cross, but throughout his life. So also today as he works by his Spirit in the church. And in marriage, this is a vital way in which our unions point to his gospel. Not just by our being Christians, but by the husband in particular caring for his wife in such a surprising way that the world sees the surprising care of Christ for his church. The world expects husbands to serve when it’s convenient. What catches eyes, and reveals genuine love, is serving when it’s costly.
When to Make Momma Happy
It may indeed be true that when momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. But true husbandly sacrifice doesn’t just seek to make momma happy now, but for endless ages to come.
Such a husband knows that simply giving in to wifely whims is not just easy, convenient, and weak, but will destroy both her joy and his in the long run. And such a husband knows that gladly giving himself up for her is not only costly, and the heart of real sacrificial service, but what builds her joy, and his, forever.
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Should be: Christian men
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The honest answer is that we both don’t want it. But I believe God does require it. I might want it if she did but I believe it’s irrepairably broken. We’ve tried all sorts of counseling over the decades. At this point she refuses to go to counseling. The relationship isn’t important to her. I asked her several times; “would you do anything to fix this?” The answer was no.
Paul
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“Yes, I am a feminist and proud of it”. Thanks for that comment, Muff.
Me, too!!
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Dear Andre,
Thank you for joining us here, for asking hard questions, and for sharing about the difficulties you’re going through in your marriage. I’m sure it’s very difficult to talk about in public.
It seems like you’re quoting from a published work here. May I ask whose words these are? I wonder because I find a lot of the gurus who advocate for gender comp and “marriage permanence” are hopelessly disconnected from reality, and from the lives and struggles of real people. I’d hate to see you influenced by someone who cares more about “correct doctrine” than about human suffering.
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Thank you for your kind words. My apologies for not citing the reference.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/inconvenient-headship?utm_campaign=Daily%20Email&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=64874728&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_10NkKt-8uGNcuxgJLcO_1hmCtkO4ucb4KoDV85LZz4OaaD5oucX3n1xlXd-USkYuQDUx5sWGQ-Diyp7v4OAA74OXePA&_hsmi=64874728
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Andre, I don’t know your history, but from what you’ve said it sounds like your marriage took a turn many years ago and she is detached from it. Whatever happened to make that go wrong may or may not be fixable. I’m curious, does she want a divorce or have you discussed it? (and of course, you need not tell me, just thinking)
I will say, I really don’t like the happy/holy dichotomy presented by people like Gary Thomas. The quotes above sound very paternalistic and if I heard someone speaking that way about me I be more likely to make me angry than to cause me to re-engage. Something to think about.
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Andre, I’d say look to the REAL Jesus, not the caricature portrayed in Evangelical circles. Initially, it seems, Jesus was well received, but it was not long before he suffered abuse from the church leaders of the day. Keep in mind that Jesus was the divine example of “loving your neighbor”.
I think this is somewhat applicable:
So, here Jesus is subjected to abuse. He is the example of sacrifice and love, and yet he puts “self-preservation” above “martyrdom”. First, he strikes at the heart of their false religion (thinking they are saved simply because of genetics and that God hated their enemies). Then, when they try to abuse him, he removes himself from that abuse rather than accepting abuse and martyrdom for the kingdom.
I’ve heard lots of sermons on this, but never focusing on how Jesus showed an example in removing himself from abuse. It’s always what he preached and the attitude of the Jewish audience. But… Jesus removed himself from an abusive situation.
Consider also:
Jesus says, there is a limit. At some point we need to evaluate the situation and say that we are no longer advancing the kingdom, but are instead stalled or worse. If you are trying to bring love and holiness to your marriage and that is being rejected and you are suffering abuse, then perhaps you need to shake the dust off and move on.
I left an abusive church. I had taken a covenant to become a member that I would follow their rules to reform the church, and respect their leadership. When I tried to change things, I found strong opposition. At some point, there were some incidents and I realized, despite the “covenant” that I couldn’t go back anymore.
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And, as Lea said, you may need to change as well. If you have a complementarian mentality towards marriage, then there may be some spiritually abusive and emotionally abusive aspects that have crept into your relationship.
Maybe a different question to ask is… “how would I have to change to make this marriage work for you?” Maybe it’s too far gone, but maybe you have been looking at this from a “things my wife needs to change” perspective and not been willing to see how abusive theology has crept in to make you unteachable in ways she needs you to grow. That is my concern with the question you asked – “would you do anything to fix this?” That seems to be an attitude of blaming your wife for marital issues, and while that may be the case, you may be missing your own issues (especially if you are patterning your marriage after stuff on DesiringGod.com).
But… that is different from being codependent and suffering more abuse.
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Yes. That is a pretty broad question to be asking, and one sided. I would not give advice based on the little we know, but I think in the face of withdrawal of affection, this question is unlikely to get a positive response. Why was affection withdrawn and is there any way to get it back, that is the question I would ask, if you wish to get it back.
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Ah, yes, John Piper and his cronies. I haven’t taken the Pied Piper seriously since I learned about his counselling wives to accept “abuse for a season”. The years since then have confirmed in my mind his utter blindness to the realities of domestic abuse and the actual needs of people.
To borrow a word from Lea, the passage you cited strikes me as paternalistic as well. I especially take exception to this part:
The notion that a husband is supposed to make his wife holy — this smacks of idolatry to me, as though the husband really is meant to take the place of Jesus in his spouse’s life. Holiness comes from within, with the help of Jesus and the Spirit. Realistically, no one else — even a husband or wife — is able to bring it about in anyone else’s life.
Also, more generally, I’ve found Piper et al. to be far too cavalier about preaching to others to be miserable for the sake of “holiness”. That comes through in the post from DesiringGod as well. They love to paint that seeking one’s own happiness, safety or well-being is somehow sinful or unforgivably selfish. I find it difficult to see such teaching coming from a God of love, and I’d advise anyone to look on it with a critical eye.
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This article is…sigh.
Whims. 1.a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.
Way to minimize whatever comes from your wife, author. Also, why is the author so worried that a husband might ‘give in’? And why is giving in thought to be ‘selfish’? What does that have to do with anything anyways? The article in general starts with a story about his grandfather taking care of his grandmother with dementia, which is a beautiful thing to do out of love. But where is the love mentioned really? That story has nothing to do with wifely ‘whims’!
Oh here we see it. They link to another article that says “True masculinity is “the glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility.” Which is a DOUG WILSON video ugh. Buyer Beware of this.
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Lea, thanks for your response. The affection was never really there. Somewhere in life, perhaps at a young age, though I’ll never know, my wife was severely scarred, hurt, and or abused. She therefore has placed a protective shell around her that no one may penetrate. Not even me.
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Mark,
I do not blame my wife. I know I cannot change her. I can only change myself. If someone is simply not interested, can’t answer the question “how can I change?” “How can I live you?” What is one to do? Suffer silently? Perhaps.
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Mark,
I find your thoughts, Scripture quotes, and comments helpful and something to seriously consider. Because that is the state of affairs in this home. My Christian sons even know and have told me I should leave.
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O Lea, thank you for your concern. Yes that is from Gary Thomas Sacred Marriage. Perhaps I buy his position. Isn’t our goal to become holy without which no one will see the Lord? And to become increasingly more conformt to His image. I’m terribly confused and I hear so many different well meaning voices. And what do we do with what Jesus and Paul said about divorce? We cannot afford to be wrong on that. Too much at stake.
I’m utterly broken and broken-hearted and don’t know where to turn expect to our living Savior. I long to go home but that’s not up to me. I can no longer discuss this, it’s way too painful. Not feeling sorry for myself.
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“And what do we do with what Jesus and Paul said about divorce? We cannot afford to be wrong on that. Too much at stake.”
We are wrong on many many things. While I don’t want to intentionally sin, I’ve been caught in some pretty significant decisions. I left an abusive church that felt that praise songs and rock bands were sinful, and I am still working through that, but when I started looking around the “traditional” churches tended to be legalistic and abusive. So, I had to ask myself, is it better attend a synagogue of Satan that has worship practices that align with my beliefs, or a true church that is mistaken on worship?
Part of that comes down to a similar question, which is, do I potentially commit a smaller sin in order to protect myself from larger sin. Am I straining a gnat and swallowing a camel? I think that is a tough decision. It took me years to eventually come to the conclusion that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life in an abusive church that treated me like crap just to avoid potentially sinning. And… a lot of that was a very very bad view of God (and myself), that somehow I needed to be as perfect as I could be or God was going to strike me down or frown on me in some tangible way – losing my job, having my house burn down, so on and so forth. That’s the sort of god that was taught at my abusive church. The God I know now isn’t going to kick me out of Heaven because of one mistake, no matter how large, and I’ve made some pretty big ones!
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Also Exodus 21 talks about male and female slaves.
So, here we first see that a female slave is different than a male slave. The concept here is that a female slave is a quasi-wife (or quasi-daughter-in-law). She has rights much like a spouse (food, clothing, sex), and if he does not treat her well, she is free (i.e. she divorces him and is no longer in debt to him)
But, later in the chapter, we see domestic violence as a cause for freedom, both for male and female slaves.
So, here, hermeneutically, we argue from the lesser to the greater. If a female slave has rights to food, clothing and sex, and a right to be protected from domestic violence, for which the penalty is divorce plus loss of indebtedness, then what about the wife or husband? Would an Israelite wife have less rights than an Israelite slave?
This is why Jesus’s and Paul’s teaching must be understood within the context of Old Testament law. Jesus did not come to invalidate the law. He did not come to give wives and husbands less protection from abuse.
The Desiring God complementarian crowd want to ignore this and make adultery and desertion the only valid claims for divorce, but that was NOT what Jesus was saying. Jesus was being asked to comment on a specific law:
They were asking Jesus, what sort of indecency is cause for divorce. Their custom was to divorce (actually send her away, not divorce, but that’s a different matter) their wives for pretty much any reason whatsoever. But, Jesus says, NO, this isn’t about her burning a dinner, but about sexual immorality. That does not invalidate the other teaching, though, about what being a wife or husband means.
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Mark – I also tried to label the other person’s position. I’ve discovered that it’s pretty dehumanizing to get stuck behind a label (even KAS to a certain extent suffers from this).
Had to smile at this. Labels as generalities may be OK, but they can be highly inaccurate when a view has a spectrum of different emphases within it. One thinks of my faithful friend north of Hadrian’s Wall …
So with feminism. The first wave wanting the vote, and the second wave wanting equal pay and opportunities. Not sure anyone these days would object to that, that unnecessary injustice was being put right. But that applied to men as well when it came to the vote.
More recent developments are more problematic. The man-hating variety, the defence of abortion, denigration of motherhood over against career, and the new pagan female spirituality – New Age, worship of Mother Earth or other manifestations of the Goddess, ending in outright occultism. This is surely in rebellion against God.
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” This is surely in rebellion against God.”
Which ONE?
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KAS, “and the new pagan female spirituality”
Haven’t really seen this tied to feminism. There have been goddesses all along.
“the defense of abortion”
Abortion is somewhat of a hot button for me. I used to be a single-issue voter. Pro-Life only. There were a number of things that convinced me that “abortion” was being used as a way to entice a certain voting bloc to the polls, and when I saw that I was just a pawn in a political machine it pretty much killed any interest I had in politics.
Consider Franklin Graham’s treatment of Bill Clinton’s adultery contrasted with Donald Trump’s for a somewhat related example. Is this about morality or politics?
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If yo stay because you think that is what God wants you to do, that sure paints Him out to be a mean and angry God. That is not the God that I see in the Bible who is always wanting the oppressed rescued and protected.
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We all make mistakes. Big ones yes.
But Galatians says; “
“19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
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If men are to rule over women, and women are to only submit to men, and not both ways, 1 Corinthian 7: 4 & 5 would read a whole lot different.
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Mark – huge cultural difference between UK and Europe and the US.
There is no realistic chance imo of ever making abortion illegal, back to the exceptions tolerating it that existed prior to the British 1967 Act, the equivalent of Roe in the States. It might be curtailed, though unlikely, but is considered an absolute right. As an issue in its own right, it is unlikely to influence how anyone votes.
For ‘ministers of religion’ – pastors and clergy – to try to influence how people vote is absolutely off limits. Not by law, but by precedent and across the board common consent. In this sense, religion and politics are more separate here than in the States!
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@ Mark per August 2, 2018 @ 2:01 PM,
Excellent points; thank-you for that. Also appreciate your Biblical references….great!
Our great and glorious LORD already knew the selfish conditions of mans’ heart, when He spoke those articulate provisions for the co-heirs of Christ Jesus.
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“There is no realistic chance imo of ever making abortion illegal . . . but is considered an absolute right.”
That’s because it IS an absolute right, just like any other medical procedure.
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@ Carmen
My mother and I were both born and raised in comp and had fathers and sexual abusers that hated feminism and abortion. I told my mother when I was sixteen I wish she had aborted me and she answered with an “I wish my mother had aborted me too.”
I am pro-choice because I know the hell it is growing up with parents who do not love you a little bit, and will not protect you, and do not care if you get repeatedly raped.
I still wish my mother had aborted me and saved herself. As it is she had me and it ruined two lives and created two trapped sex slaves. I was actually lucky, I never married a comp man.
My mother was three slaves in one, a sex slave, a reproductive slave, (she had no ownership over her own fertility) my father who did not have to feel it or do it did, and she was a domestic slave. My father forced his teenage wife to get pregnant with me where she would be trapped. That was the only way for the bottom of the barrel loser comp man to have a woman in his life.
My father always used pregnancy to get revenge on women and girls. He told me the pain I caused my mother while she was giving birth to me pleasured him. After I was born I was a sick crying baby and it got on his nerves so he beat my scared trapped teen mom in her face and made her face gush blood.
One of my cousins got pregnant at sixteen and my father hoped she would die from the pregnancy. If a teen girl would not flirt back with my father he wanted her to get pregnant out of revenge. I learned from my sicko father and the man who sexually abused me that extream misogynist use forced birth to unleash their wrath on women and little girls. The idea that a woman or little girl had to give birth against her will made my father giddy.
My mother has told me this year she wishes she had never been born.
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@ Carmen
“More recent developments are more problematic. The man-hating variety, the defence of abortion, denigration of motherhood over against career, and the new pagan female spirituality – New Age, worship of Mother Earth or other manifestations of the Goddess, ending in outright occultism. This is surely in rebellion against God.”
Aren’t we lucky we do not have to pretend Kas’s, ISIS, the Taliban, or Boko Haram’s gods are real with them?
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Christianity hurts –
My heart goes out to you, CH, every time you post. I hope you realize that every person who reads this blog (and JA has thousands of subscribers) is moved by your account. What happened to you shouldn’t have, it’s as simple as that. I am sorry that your experience with men has been so tarnished. But it doesn’t mean you are. You are not to blame for what happened at the hands of someone who should have known better. I, too, had a father who was less than stellar in character. The thing is, CH, there are good men – very many – believers and non-believers! I know I’ve said this to you before, but some of them even comment on this blog. 🙂
My hopes for you are sent in the very best spirit – I hope you get to meet a lovely man and he restores your trust in the opposite sex. You deserve to find happiness and have a life filled with wonder, love, and beauty.
Please try to remember (as I remind myself daily) that many people are products of indoctrination; they can’t help their mindsets. It’s people like Julie Anne – who try to open up people’s minds and whose story reflects what can be achieved when that happens – who will always listen with a sympathetic ear. Many of us understand you are coming from a place of hurt. I wish for things to get better for you. (If I was a praying person, I’d be doing that!) 🙂
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I don’t mean to be so blunt and insensitive. But killing babies in the womb is not the answer. It’s sin. Not because I say so. But because a loving, good, God says it is. Psalm 139:13.
“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.”
That’s no proof text.
Lovingly,
Andre
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I’ll echo Carmen here, CH. I wish nothing but love for you, platonic or otherwise.
Most feminists are not man hating and even if they were I’m pretty sure the % of men in general who flat out hate women is much larger. And yet, I do not dismiss all men because of it, only the bad ones. Feminism as a philosophy is not responsible for a few women who don’t like men. And quite frankly, many women, like CH, have every reason to hate men – and still they don’t. This nonsense should be dropped. Wanting to be treated like person and calling bad behavior on the part of men is not ‘man hating’. It’s truth telling and we need more of it.
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Andre,
I am tempted to reply – bluntly and insensitively – to your comment. (you can probably guess that I have a decidedly different viewpoint; I’ll always be on the side of a woman – after all, this post has to do with feminism) BUT I risk getting a strongly-worded message from JA. 😉
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Lea said,
“And quite frankly, many women, like CH, have every reason to hate men – and still they don’t. ”
The idea of being in a relationship with a man and him not having the right to tell me no grosses me out. I would feel like an evil pervert if I wanted that arrangement for myself. And wouldn’t it be boring to be in a relationship with someone who could not tell you no?
Growing up in a sexist family they believed little boys don’t get raped. Well, one of the little boys who grew up in this family committed suicide because he was raped as a little boy. Another is in prison because he was used as a little boy sex toy starting when he was a toddler. I know he was sexually abused because he is only one year older than me and I saw it happen. The person who did it was stupid enough to admit it to me when I was a child.
To think these sexually abused little boys would grow up and be manipulated, badgered, harassed, or forced to have any kind of sex against their will is odious and infuriating. We see comp condemning men for not getting married against their will. They don’t even want to give them time to straighten out the evil that was heaped on them growing up. They want them to get married right away. Comp is selfish and heartless. And it does not give a d*mn about any rape victims.
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You would think so, wouldn’t you? But not everything thinks that way, sadly.
One of the things I have noticed about the man I’m seeing at the moment is that he is SO careful to make sure not just that I say ‘yes’ to whatever activity, but that I actually want to do it. He will not push me in anything, so I can’t hedge on my yes’s I have to be firm. Such a nice contrast to the kind of pushiness I’ve seen too many times and it makes me appreciate him even more.
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@ andresetyon
My mother and I both wish we had been aborted. And it is obvious that your God does not love my mother, me, or any women or little girl I know. Lots of people wish they had been aborted. Your god is not the one who has to go through life in toxic unbearable pain. Your god is not the one who has to be repeatedly raped as a child. Your god is not the one who has to suffer through the sickness of pregnancy or the pain of childbirth. As someone who was born and raised in conservative Christianity, I have never known your god to answer the prayers or help abused women and abused children.
It was very easy for my father and the man who repeatedly sexually abused me as a little girl to be pro-forced birth. They do not have to do it or feel it.
I do not believe the comp god is good just like I do not believe the Taliban god is good. Comps condemning me and telling me what their god thinks, says, and wants is like the Taliban condemning me and telling me what Allah thinks, says, and wants.
I grew up with pro-life men and had to be submissive to pro-life men. They made my mother and me wish we had been aborted.
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“One of the things I have noticed about the man I’m seeing at the moment is that he is SO careful to make sure not just that I say ‘yes’ to whatever activity, but that I actually want to do it. He will not push me in anything, ”
Good for you Lea;)
I am an asexual but it is obvious to me that men who think, listen, care, and can take no for an answer are attractive.
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@ Carmen
Thank you.
I have many good men in my family. The first atheist I ever knew of is my mothers oldest nephew. When our great-grandmother was moving in with our grandparents she got upset realizing she would never live in her own house again and collapsed. My cousin picked her up and carried her into the house all by his self. He was an angel to our two great grandmothers when they were dying. He has trained with the IDF and other special forces and teaches women and girls self-defense and how to shoot guns. He has gotten into fistfights at gas stations with men he does not know after seeing the men abuse their wives and girlfriends. He did it once in front of my mother. He has a big farm and begs my mother, sister, and me to move in with him were he can take care of us. He has great empathy for children and seniors.
My favorite uncle’s name is Bubba. He has been rescuing homeless and abused animals ever since he could afford to.
I have too many cousins that are good men and that I adore I can not even name them all. They take very good care of their families and are head over heels in love with their children. They see someone in trouble and they don’t even ask can I help you they just start helping them.
I have met compassionate Christian men here at Spiritual Sounding Board that I love and respect.
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I’m so glad to know that, CH. You are a fine person with much to offer.
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@ Christianity Hurts and Carmen,
You BOTH are absolutely amazing. Mere simple English words cannot mimic the joy that I have right now in how I see you ministering to one another in the love that Jesus calls us to have. I have not experienced this kind of compassion, empathy, and agape love within the 501c. 3 institutional c’hurch that claims to know a jesus better than Jesus Himself……since my youth in a religious assembly.
I am just in awe at the exchange between you two and am so grateful that both of you are here. Thank-you for showing us what real kindness and understanding looks like.
Just grateful.
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The first feminist I ever met I met online. She had a horse ranch on the west coast with her husband. She had had four grown sons she loved to death. She went motorcycle riding with her husband every weekend. And she said the only way anyone would ever get her guns away from her would be if they pulled them out of her cold dead hands.
This was surprising to me because I was always told feminist are against people’s rights to have guns, they are not married, and they do not have children.
I went on to meet many feminist that supported me if I wanted to be a stay at home mother of many children and my right to have guns. I was also lied to about atheist. Many atheists I have met think child rapist deserves the death penalty.
Either the Christians I grew up with did not know anything about atheist and feminist ( would not be surprising they were rubes) or they were just lying trying to get me to never become an atheist or feminist. And trying to get me to hate atheist and feminist.
When I first started researching feminist I hated them and when I first started researching atheist I was scared to death of them.
I am sorry I grew up in such a lying, hateful, rube ideology.
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CH – that’s why education is so important! (Says the public education teacher). 🙂
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And I wish I were dead too. Truly. I love you. I’m sorry for your deep pain. And I’d do anything in my power to help you.
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I’d very much like to hear what you have to say. setyon@aol.com
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Andre,
Thanks for the invitation but I’ve been blogging for about six years and active on many others. Perhaps you are new to this and I’m sure you mean no harm, but it’s generally not in a woman’s best interest to respond to an unknown man online. In fact, I’ve learned from experience. It’s unfortunate that you have to be tarred with the same brush, but the conversation quickly became abusive. (From his end)
Thanks just the same. 🙂
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I’m not sure Carmen but I think Andre was addressing Christianity Hurts?
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I think most of us don’t bite CH, though you never know with Carmen. 😉 ❤
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Zoe,
I just nibble. . . 😉
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Oops you may be right about Andre’s comment, Zoe, although the notification I got put his comment right under mine. . . . WordPress. ..
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What comment was that? It doesn’t show the thread.
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For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully & wonderfully made. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Ps. 13,14,16. Even if ur parents didn’t plan for you, God did.
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I completely understand.
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Has Carmen managed to convince everyone here to become atheist, and to call themselves feminists, or has KAS bought into any of that yet?
Christianity Hurts said,
This is one reason why the “feminist” term is so difficult. It runs the gamut.
There are some feminists who may be fine with someone owning firearms, and there are ones who are opposed to anyone owning firearms.
It depends on the particular feminists you’re talking to or about.
Feminism is not, and cannot, be boiled down to the dictionary definition of, “it just means equality for women, the end, period!”
No, “feminism” can mean more than that, or mean something else entirely, depending on who you are, depending on the person you are talking to, or the context.
As for me. I wrote this post on my ‘Daisy’ blog the other day:
_The Words “Feminism” or “Feminist” – Why They’re Problematic And Aren’t Clear – And Why I Don’t Use the Label for Myself_
And in light of andresetyon’s posts about his troubled marriage, it got me to thinking about some related matters, so I wrote this (also on my ‘Daisy’ blog) – I do mention divorce a little bit in this page, especially towards the conclusion part:
_Christians Cannot Agree on Christianity – Not Even the Essentials of The Faith – So Why Base All Life Choices on the Faith or the Bible?_
I may do a follow-up post on my blog regarding the topic of divorce specifically.
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Daisy,
This is precisely why I struggle with the word “feminist.” And when Mike Abendroth (and his like-minded theologian + their followers) speaks of feminists, exactly what does that mean?
Truly.
Is their some written guide that I can use to check off the boxes to determine if a woman is a feminist, or if a man is a feminist sympathizer? And when Jesus spoke to women in love and kindness, would that make Him, (our LORD and Savior) a feminist sympathizer, for our Holy Scriptures speak volumes to the words and actions of the Pharisees (highly religious folks) towards women of their day.
I once opened the door for an elderly man with a cane at the local clinic as he was struggling with his balance. He apologized to me that he could not open the door for me, and my response was, “No worries, sir, we are one in Jesus Christ, and He doesn’t care who opens the door, just as long as His door is opened.” He smiled, said “thank-you, you are so right on that one.”
I don’t know if he was a comp-ed c’hurch man.
So am I a feminist for opening a door for an elderly man?
And am I a feminist for telling a man “no” whether he be egal or comp?
Also, is there a word for the feminist counterpart…..as in “manist?”
Smile.
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And truthfully, does it really matter in the public arena as to “who” opens the door for another, just as long as the door is opened?
I broke my nose once, and it really smarts…….would not enjoy breaking it again on a closed door……so I’m thankful at least someone, regardless of gender, opens doors! 🙂
Oh my, thy grammar needs some work in the above comment thread……that’s what happens when typing in haste.
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Carmen, I don’t bite!
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Carmen, you rock!
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Where’d you get that line, eh? 😉
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Andre, I’m with you, but some sins we as a society deal with differently. We don’t ration food because the gluttonous won’t inherit the kingdom, nor outlaw alcohol because of drunkenness.
Unfortunately, I recall a law being passed that made it manslaughter to kill a fetus, and the “test case” ended up being a woman who supposedly was malnourished and/or on drugs and she was charged because of a miscarriage. I can’t remember and Google didn’t help, but it seems that “abortion” in practice has been more about manipulation and control of women than about protecting the rights of the unborn. So, I think if we are going to outlaw abortion it needs to be consensus rather than party lines.
I feel the same way about the death penalty. I heartily support death for murder and rape, but then I look at the statistics, and WHO is being put to death? Blacks and poor people, and many of those serving life sentences have been acquitted through the Innocence Project. Then you read of DAs who, for years, withheld evidence from defense attorneys that would have acquitted the innocent. What do they get? So far, nothing but a cushy retirement. So, I’ve decided that we, as a society, are not ready to have a death penalty.
So, my perspective now is that we avoid putting people into those situations. So, we teach communication techniques and family planning in High School rather than pure abstinence and ignorance. Our “conservative” district does a really good job of this. We attended their info sessions and they are very strong on respect, communication, and while it is abstinence based, they talk about body parts and contraception, so it’s pretty well-rounded. When I was in high school, it was mechanics. No contraception, nothing about respect and abuse and communication.
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Carmen, you said that to Christianity Hurts. 🙂
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It’s my usual line to/about you! 🙂
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”
So, my perspective now is that we avoid putting people into those situations. So, we teach communication techniques and family planning in High School rather than pure abstinence and ignorance.”
Mark, this whole comment is good.
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During my first child development class our professor declared that she was a feminist and that all we women need to do is kill all men, become lesbians and reproduce through technology. That sounds like rebellion against God to me.
Just one of the many reasons I don’t call myself a feminist.
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Blue Rose, that is the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard from a professor. Did you report her? I would have. Her comment was highly inappropriate and I highly doubt you’d find any feminist who would agree with that idea.
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There is a good video on “pornography” -Porn has massive impact on Brain- by Ray Comfort.
Not to admire the conditions of “men” like Ray Comfort, as he is more complimentarian in nature, but to acknowledge that SIN is a problem, even in women too. Ray does a better job at pointing men and women TO Christ and not to men as “head of the household” in my opinion.
Woman’s rights are not against God’s word. There are NUMEROUS EXAMPLES of need for men and women to be godly in their nature (no rapes, no incest, no infidelity, no stealing etc) People, men AND women need to stand against evils like traffickers.
But “feminism” if it is defined by folks like the Kardashians, Taylor Swift, Brittany Spears….even going to people like Harvy Weinstein, Bill Cosby…….is FANTASY and is NOT GODLY.
It is OK to be beautiful, but it is not ok to go overboard and believe so highly of “outward appearance”……..Eve SAW the fruit and thought that it was good……
The Bride-of-Christ gazed at the BRIDEGROOM—>the book of revelation……she saw that HE was good (not men in general….but the REDEEMER himself!)
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“But I know you’re a feminist or you’ve been influenced by feminism when I tell you this: the Bible says, “Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.””
The man who repeatedly sexually abused me from toddler to ten years old had favorite bible verses. The wife submission bible verses.
In my research of sexually abusive men who get off on men having sex slaves, their favorite word is submission.
Sexually sadistic men who have a fetish with men owning female sex slaves are into words like, submission, discipline, authority. There are other words but these are three of them and cretin comp men love these words.
Look at Doug Wilson’s fetish with slavery and rape. Doug Wilson promoting and advocating for a pedophile and child sexual abuser.
“And so the rebellion isn’t really against masculinity, it’s a rebellion against God, himself.”
All of these men who are insecure about their feeble masculinity are so childish and embarrassing. Women should not have to have sh*t lives because of these men’s none existent masculinity.
If these men would grow up and stop acting like 14-year-old boys they would not have to go on about their manhoods and being real men all the time. If you have to remind people and beg people to see your manhood than it is obvious you don’t have one. Fourteen-year-old boys can’t be men because fourteen-year-olds are children. Real men are adults. None of this obnoxious childish men act like confident adults; such as Mark Driscoll.
“I mean, I haven’t even said yet, “Wives do you obey your husbands?” and, “Sarah obeyed Abraham, even calling him what — Lord.””
This is the crap that started making me think the bible was not written by any loving intelligent all knowing god and was written by a bunch of unwanted, sexually abusive, really dumb, insecure, really immoral, childish, little girl raping, loser men who had the same sick fetishes as Ariel Castro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings
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Dear Rose,
That’s certainly extreme. Do you remember this professor’s name?
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Uhmmmm, who is this guy in the video, and why don’t he just say what he really means? “Misogyny is Gospel!”
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Julie Anne,
I wish I had reported my professor or at the very least said something to her. But I had only just turned 18 and was too insecure to challenge a teacher. I didn’t even know that I could have reported her to the dean. If I had taken her class a few years later I would have. I just dropped her class instead. Although I have to that was only one profs saying inappropriate or wacky things. That’s what happens when you go to college in the SF Bay Area.
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There are whacky professors everywhere. I reported one at my school who was so abusive, it blew my mind. I actually told her off in class in front of everybody that her behavior was abusive, that she had no business being a professor with that behavior, and that I was reporting her. She was unreal.
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Julie Anne,
Feminism: Is it a rebellion against God? (my answer No)
I think the title of this thread is an interesting one, mainly because God was included in the title.
I think your great question could be further broadened to: Sin: Is it a rebellion against God?
Or
With abuse being an act of Hatred, the question could also be further broadened to: Hatred: Is it rebellion against God?
If this a Spiritually Inspired or Spiritually Charged question and is being configured in a way that is asked to both non-believers and believers alike, the only logical answer for a woman wanting to pursue and expecting fair treatment it certainly isn’t rebellion against God.
To stand up against and expose abuse isn’t rebellion.
Feminism itself isn’t rebellion against God.
I think many confuse feminism as being strictly left leaning pro-choice embracing abortion on demand with no exceptions.
But even so, aren’t all women a feminist of some variation, whether they realize it or not?
I think it is becoming more complicated as I read an article that New York recognizes 31 different genders.
I do think there are different variations and dialects of Feminism like there are many dialects within Christianity or even Chauvinism, that are rogue, in an abusive way.
Whereas many left leaning feminist are cruel toward right leaning feminists who don’t share the same spiritual, political and social ideologies. And the same can be said with Feminist Righties being cruel toward Lefties.
Abortion strictly used to accommodate a promiscuous life-style or simply aborting a child because the man and woman recklessly got pregnant and doesn’t want the child, could be considered rebellion against God.
Which is a hot topic, especially for women and men who proclaim to be Christian but wants Roe v Wade to stay intact with no exceptions.
We know many Liberal and Conservative Feminist (and Liberal and Conservative Men) collide on that issue as well
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D, what is your definition of feminism or a feminist?
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Julie Anne,
I don’t know if I can give a satisfactory definition to a woman who I think is a self-proclaimed Feminist. Kind of like me trying to explain what birth pains feels like, knowing there are different variations of pain that a woman endures, while others experience pain that is more severe when I have never experiencing them myself.
Feminism has different ideologies and an individual feminists in general will attempt to individualize their lifestyle to fit their personal social, political and religious beliefs. Whether they are Socially leaning Liberal or Conservative.
I somewhat agree with the Wiki Definition: “Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes.”
I don’t think it is that narrow.
The one thing I question is that not all that proclaim to be Feminists’ will individually share the same common goal with a different woman who proclaim they are a feminist and then aggressively retaliate toward each other. (especially with abortion or individual political views)
Feminism becomes extreme when individual feminists collide and force feeds their ideology on each other or someone else.
The same thing when an African American who leans politically right, when he/she is afraid to share countering views, as they will be labeled as an Uncle Tom.
I think you asked a really good question, but I think it is very deep topic. Then trying to connect it to Spiritual Abuse adds an even bigger challenge.
I think many in the Christian Community think the meaning of feminism and abortion are one in the same and it’s not.
(though maybe to some feminist embracing abortion rights is one of the pre-requisites and countering views won’t be equally reported as they aren’t part of their own individual feminist mandate, which again is pretty narrow)
Some of the abuses (if not most) you have raised, were criminal acts and for me, we don’t have to be part of a social movement to expect laws to be enforced.
But we are turning into a society that bends laws and criminal acts, that fit either a Liberal Agenda or a Conservative one. (In my view, if millennials start embracing Libertarianism agendas will end and laws will be enforced)
What puzzles me about feminism and other groups, is why they don’t rise up and get Sharia Law abolished.
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“That’s what happens when you go to college in the SF Bay Area.”
I think this can happen at any college.
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Blue Rose: During my first child development class our professor declared that she was a feminist and that all we women need to do is kill all men, become lesbians and reproduce through technology.
Why not reply, as a good wind up, ‘what happens if the technology breaks down and there is no man available to come and mend it’?
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Nah, it was Paul who said it. Paul was and is not God. Also, its a curse that men would reign over women. Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
If you say the command is for a wonen to obey her man, you also teach that slavery is good. Cause in the same book the slaves were told also to obey their earthly masters.
So. I only follow JESUS and submit to Him. Man and woman should be submitted to eachother because they are one flesh. 1 piece can’t be one piece if there are 2 different pieces and one must submit to the other. Then you have 2 seperate pieces because yoh say only a woman must sumbit. Is it that hard for you to just calculate? 1 can not be a 2. Its not Gods command for woman to obey to her husband, it was the command of Paulus. And HE is not GOD.
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I don’t think we get to pick and choose what we follow from the Bible. It is all instruction from God. That said, I think we need to understand, first of all, what was God really saying, and was it instruction for a specific time and place and culture or something true for all cultures.
As you said, “There is neither .. nor male and female” I think this is instruction for all time, but when you look at Paul’s instruction to wives… the very next paragraph is talking about slaves and masters. So, how can someone HONESTLY look at these passages and say, well, Paul’s instructions for slaves were only cultural, but his instructions for wives are permanent. It takes a lot of hermeneutical gymnastics to even begin to make that argument.
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You’ll find Julie Anne to be very informative and a wonderful source of wisdom. Welcome, Odell! (Lovely name!)
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As a Christian and firm Bible believer, I’m a proud feminist. Not the man-hating, abortion-supporting type, but the old fashioned type. This video is a dangerous misuse of Scripture, especially its implication that there’s no “excuse” (as if one is needed) for not absolutely submitting to your husband. Say that when you’ve been married to (or, as in my case, are the child of) a chauvinist blowhard!
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I encourage women to not get married but rather pursue a relationship with Jesus. I have lived such a peaceful and beautiful life in His love and care. He is all a woman needs. I find many men use scripture to dominate and exclude people – not all men – but many. Religious opportunism. Feminists have paved a way for people like me to be able to get a mortgage, a fat pay check etc , horses, a farm etc, and live life to the full while praising God and waiting for His soon return. I wouldn’t like having a husband.
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That delusional world you’ve created must be comforting but it’s completely divorced from reality. Just sayin’
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Please, please, do much, much more studying of the Greek scripture. Especially words such as “head”, and hupotasso. Search what has been found more recently on the papyri on hupotasso. More information has been found to help form the meaning of “submit” since the Bible was translated into English. I doubt you’ll acknowledge my words, but maybe someone who is searching to honor God’s words and find what he truly wants from us will! 👍😊
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Hello Christina. Can you please expound upon your statements, “Please, please, do much, much more studying of the Greek scriptures. Especially words such as “head”, and hupotasso.”
I personally find it difficult to believe that we, as born again believers in Jesus Christ, are to submit to men or women who desire to lord it over others, period! Why on earth, did religious people of Jesus’ day, hate the Way in which Jesus encountered and treated women? Why did the religious men of His Day, and the religious women whom were blinded to the truth and freedom only found in Christ, persecute, castigate, and abuse women who actually experienced and believed the authority of Jesus Christ, through the active indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the Real Holy Spirit, not the fake one of man’s traditions)?
It has been a while since our Savior was nailed to the tree by religious folk (synagogue and c’hurch goers), however, even though fashions trends have changed, the heart and soul of religion and its “man” made tradition, verses true faith and freedom in Christ Alone, have not waivered since the beginning of time.
Religion, governments, and the social institutions, seek to rule over the individual as if we have not a mind and soul of our own, due to the individual creation of each of us from our Father, Whom art in Heaven. Instead, we are grouped and corralled into collective pens, so to speak, stealing away our individualism, our unique identity in Jesus Christ, as if we were branded into a herd of collective tin cans with no unique personality, no unique identity, and no unique function in the literal Kingdom of God.
Who does this to the individual? Who does this to humanity? And precisely, “who” does this to those who Honor Christ as their Pastor, their Physician, their Savior, and their King?
Perhaps, those who are intimidated and insulted that a few of Jesus sheep who choose to Honor Him as their all in all and live their lives in His glorious freedom, instead of worshipping people and their created institutions, are the real abusers, perpetrators, and criminals of this earthly kingdom who will accept the authority of the one world global system.
Do something for “God.” Set His people “FREE!”
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For the record, to live in honesty and truth here, I actually used to listen to Mike Abendroth through the Worldview Weekend forum and believed that he knew Jesus Christ far, far better than I. Until the glorious day, I picked up the Bible for myself, and began dissecting it into its actual meaning by believing in every Word that came out of my Savior’s mouth, Christ Jesus.
He Personally, never, never, never ever said, “women, submit yourselves unto the headship of your husband.” Nor did He ever say, “woman, give up your personhood, your identity in Me Alone for the Salvation of your soul, to another man, woman, or institution (i.e., c’hruch/religion, government, social).
No. Headship belongs to Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of man, alone. Any other teaching apart from Christ, is absolute falsehood from wolves in sheep’s clothing, whom desire worship and admiration upon their own worldly wisdom.
Is Mike Abendroth a wolf? What would his “worldly sermon” look like, pertaining to the truth of Abigail? Hmmmm.
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And with all of this earthy “wisdom” that we encounter in within the institutional structures of government, education, social networks, and religion, I constantly ask, “What in the world is the definition of “feminism?”
What IS “feminism?” Within the context of Jesus Christ and His Truths. Not that of mere sinful man, but of our pure and holy Lord Jesus Christ.
If I were to believe the precepts of mere men and women that surround me within the institutions listed above, the definition of my living presence here on this earth would be defined as a soul-less nothing, just a woman slave to appease and please the leadership of those who proclaim themselves as lords over my life.
And believe me, I have encountered hundreds of personalities who love, enjoy, and consider it their godly mission, to lord it over my life and unfortunately, the lives of other innocent souls who believe that we actually have freedom in Christ.
When freedom and liberty in Christ Jesus actually prevail in the life of one of His sheep, the lord if over types and shadows, sense this Presence of the Holy Spirit within the heart and mind of that person. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit, provokes the opposition (and this can be the c’hurch goer, the believer and the non-believer) to cast continuous warfare upon that individual until they submit to the pseudo godliness of those who oppose.
For those of us, and I am a woman by God’s nature, who choose consciously and unconsciously to abide in Christ Jesus for all truth, I personally will choose to believe that Jesus gave us women the equal opportunity to follow Him and live for Him under no constraints, whether forced upon us by man nor woman.
It still to this day, confounds me, how men of the local c’hurch systems around me, treat us women believers as if we are second class citizens, and as in islam, half ot a human being as men.
It is no wonder, the religious individuals of Jesus’ day, hated Him for giving love and respect to women as if they were equals to men. The “men” of His day, c’hurched men, literally hated our Savior, for He knew not their definitions of the word “feminism.”
To this day, I will not shake the “hand” of a c’hurched p’astor man, for his hands are far more soft and supple than my own due to the “work factor.” It saddens me to no end, how the apostle Paul worked hard with his hands to earn a living all the while preaching and teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which we are all commanded and excited to do for His Glory, meanwhile, back at the local c’hurch building, the clergy sit on their asses expecting hand-outs from those of us who are honestly working. Would the Apostle Paul be embarrassed and concerned over the entitlement programs preached from the fake pulpit/alter systems of our day to enhance the lifestyles of our false clergy systems?
Hmmmm. I smell another “p’astor appreciation benefit” entering the local kingdoms of man, meanwhile the family down the road is working hard and still struggling to make ends meet. And they love the Lord with their whole hearts and treat the rest of us neighbors with love and kindness………and are the first to show up on your doorstep to hug you when a loved one passes from this earth.
And c’hurch folks continue to criticize and condemn……………………there is nothing new under this sun.
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she waves to Katy
Keep give ’em sh*t, Katy! Hope all’s well with you!
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Hey Carmen and Katy, good to “see” both of you!
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She waves to JA, too!! :). Hope all’s well!
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