Classical Conversations, Cease and Desist, Legal Threats, No Talk
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NOTE: This is part of a series that began with these earlier posts:
- Classical Conversations #1: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
- Classical Conversations #2: What Led You to Join a Classical Conversations Homeschool Community? #ClassicalConvMadeKnown
- Classical Conversations #3: Leaders Delete Comments and Block Commenters Who Don’t Toe the Line
- Classical Conversations #4: A CC Veteran Gives Advice to New People Considering Classical Conversations
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This is the 5th article in a series on Classical Conversations (CC), a supplemental homeschooling program used by over 100,000 homeschool students. The next personal story is from April. We will read about her concerns and how Classical Conversations leadership, via an attorney, attempted to force her to silence by using legal threats. Throughout this post, I have interjected my comments in green font.
It is important to reiterate that the personal accounts told in this series are indeed personal. You may be participating in a group where none of these accounts sound remotely familiar. But if even one of these accounts is true (I believe them to be true), there is a problem. As it turns out, I am aware of several people who share a similar situation as April, and so I think people need to be aware that this silencing tactic used by CC leaders may be used against you if you share concerns, too.
In April’s account, there are specific titles of Classical Conversations leaders mentioned which may be unfamiliar to people new to Classical Conversations (in fact, I’m not even clear on the titles). In the interest of time and space, we will not define the titles/responsibilities – it’s just important to know that they are leaders within the CC organizational hierarchy.
Now, we move on to April’s personal story. ~Julie Anne
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April’s Story
My name is April. In 2011, I was looking for a way to get regular social interaction for my then-2nd grader and toddler. I was familiar with the basics of classical education. After finding no negative reviews of the program, I decided to give CC a go, as it seemed to be a good fit.
The Community Years
I was in a CC community for 4 years. It was a lovely community, but like most CC communities, we weren’t doing everything exactly “the CC way,” and most of us didn’t even know it. I was a tutor (a classroom teacher) in my 4th year, and even I didn’t know we were “rebels.” (I did not sign a contract or NDA, though, as is now required.) I didn’t know we were considered rebels until CC recruited and hired a support representative (SR) from our community. CC hired a friend of ours and trained her to enforce their rules. And she tried. But we didn’t fall in line.
So, after several months of talks and meetings and mind-blowing spiritual abuse, we were essentially told, “If you don’t want to do things exactly our way maybe CC isn’t right for you.” So our entire community, save the new SR and her best friend on campus, left CC. In all, twenty-three families left. [The subject of spiritual abuse will be discussed more in depth later in this CC series.]
I was not devastated. We still had all our friends, but I was shaken up. I had listened to my former director and good friend sob on the phone to me after twice-weekly browbeating phone calls with our new SR and the area manager. I had endured personal tongue lashings for sending emails to my friends about how we should not have to suddenly do things differently because these women said so. We were like independent contractors, and we were delivering the product. We just weren’t delivering it precisely how they wanted.
And, I do mean “precisely”. We were dinged for:
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- using print-outs in class when we were supposed to be handwriting everything.
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- having the most basic of dress codes – a navy or white polo with any kind of solid color bottoms – meant to honor the church where we met.
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- combining the messier science experiments and art projects.
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- using a middle-school program created by a private individual, along with CC materials.
- not running things simply enough and within the time limits imposed for each subject to be taught.
When I asked WHY we needed to do things these certain ways, I was told that we were like children, and CC leaders were the parents, and that sometimes parents do things that their children do not understand but are for their own good. And, the children don’t need to understand. I was a PAYING customer and was compared to a child.
It was a level of control I found mind-boggling, and yet I know our community had it better than some. At least we stayed together even after we weren’t with CC.
The Year After: Sharing Our Concerns
Our CC families roughly went one of two directions: to an independent co-op that stayed at the church where our former CC community had been meeting, or to a university-model school/co-op hybrid. We were happy, but my confusion and concern about why things with CC had happened the way they did lingered.
I started leaving comments on blog posts about CC, just telling our story. This was how I found a Facebook group where some of the questions that had been plaguing me were being addressed. The group was called “Exploring CC’s Business Structure,” and it lasted a little over a year. In that group, I discussed what happened to our CC community and CC’s business practices in depth. At least 100 women from all over the country were sharing their own stories and concerns about CC.
The group was public, and the owner of the group consistently invited CC leaders to address our collective concerns. CC leaders who could accurately answer our concerns never chimed in, though we had been told many times they knew about our group. If you have never dealt with Classical Conversations, or if you have flown under the radar or never had many questions, you may never have experienced the evasion and secrecy surrounding almost every aspect of CC’s business and rules. But, if you have had questions, you know. You most likely hit a wall. The ultimate defense CC leaders use against questions is silence. [This is classic gaslighting. It is crazy making. You know you’ve asked questions, you know the leaders have seen them, but they act like they don’t exist. This puts you in an awkward situation where you feel the need to walk on eggshells and bring the subject up again and risk more gaslighting.]
So, we in our little Facebook group were left to speculate as to why the rules were what they were. I was pretty outspoken with my theories. No CC leader with any real authority ever came in to correct me or to explain away my theories. We were on our own.
Contacting Churches, Classical Conversations, and Threat from CC’s Attorney
I think I was already “on the radar” of the CC leaders, but I guess I didn’t seem very threatening until I started contacting churches.
It began when I discovered that my old home church, the church I had attended for over 12 years, had hosted CC’s summer conference called “Practicum,” and was planning to host a CC community in the fall. I was concerned. I wanted the church I still loved to know our story. So, I contacted my former pastor via email and let him know a little bit about our community’s story. I also added that Classical Conversations and nearly all of their communities are for-profit organizations.
My former pastor did not know this. He said he had been told it was “a group of homeschoolers meeting together.” I could tell he felt like he had egg on his face because the church had a strict policy against hosting for-profit groups of any kind. My former pastor said he felt fooled. They decided not to host a CC community that fall.
This whole experience was upsetting to me. I was thinking that surely my old church had known that CC is for-profit and had worked something out. It was appalling to me that they did not even know. I began to become concerned that other churches in my area may not know and could possibly go against internal church policy without really knowing it. I decided to contact churches in my area listed on the CC website to let them know that CC is for-profit. I was behaving as a concerned citizen and Christian informing churches of an easily verifiable fact: CC is a for-profit business.
I contacted approximately 10 churches one day, and then got on with life, planning to contact more later. I heard back from a few. Several said they no longer were hosting CC communities (though they were still listed on CC’s website as host churches). Others eventually shared that they also did not know it was a for-profit company.
Almost two weeks went by from when I contacted those 10 churches. One night, I let my former CC support manager, area manager, and regional manager know what I was doing. For all I knew, this was an issue of a local failure to train CC leaders to disclose the for-profit status of the group up front. So, I emailed them and expressed my surprise at finding out my former home church had not known the group was for-profit.
To my recollection and according to my emails, I never said to any church or CC manager that I was afraid that the church could lose its non-profit status over hosting a CC. I only mentioned property tax exemption specifically (NOT non-profit status) to CC managers. I never spoke of losing property tax exemption OR non-profit status to churches. That is an important distinction to note when you read the letter from the attorney below. I also wrote that I hoped they would train their leaders to disclose for-profit status to churches up front.
Less than a day after I sent the email to my former managers, the CC National Director over our area of the country emailed me. He said one of the churches I had contacted forwarded my “letter” on to CC. In his email to me, he noted that I was NOT a CC representative and firmly asked me not to “speculate” about CC’s business arrangements. I took this to mean he didn’t want me to contact any more churches. He also invited me to contact him directly if I had any questions about the matter.
Boy, did I have salient questions! I wrote back and asked two things:
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- was anything untrue that I had written in the email to churches?
- could he assure me that other churches were not hosting CC’s without knowing it is a for-profit organization?
I did not receive an email back from the National Director. One week later, on June 4, 2016, the law firm hired by Classical Conversations sent me a cease and desist letter – a threat letter. The threat: stop talking about CC this certain way or we might sue you for an injunction to force you to shut up and/or for money.
Note: a cease and desist (C&D) letter and a cease and desist order are two different things. A C&D order comes from a judge or other agency with legal authority to tell someone to stop doing something. A C&D letter is simply a complaint of alleged wrongdoing sent to tell a person to stop doing it or the sender may take legal action. That is why a C&D letter is often called a “threat letter”. It’s just a threat. It has no legal consequence in and of itself. It’s often used as a scare tactic to try to stop a particular behavior without having to go to the expense and risk of actually filing a lawsuit. [C&D is a tool sometimes used to squelch any negative communication that reflects poorly on an organization.]
Conclusion
After receiving the cease and desist letter, because of taking care of an out-of-town personal family issue, I wrote a letter to the attorney saying I would “stand down while respectfully disagree[ing] with the accusations” made against me. I haven’t posted publicly until just recently again. Cease and Desist Letter follows.
Cease and Desist Letter follows.
Ward and Smith, P.A.
Deana A. Labriola, Attorney at Law
Wade II, Suite 400
5430 Wade Park Boulevard (27607)
Post Office NC 27636-3009
June 3, 2016RE: Cease and Desist Interference with Business Relationships and Interests, et al.
Our File 150219-00001
Please be advised that this firm has been retained to represent Classical Conversations Incorporated, a North Carolina corporation that you have communicated with and about on numerous occasions. This letter serves as a response to your prior communications with Classical Conversations and a demand that you immediately cease from spreading misinformation to others, including without limitation churches and individuals that have partnered with Classical Conversations, regarding legal and tax matters upon which you are unqualified to provide advice. [This attorney, on behalf of Classical Conversations, is stating as fact that April spread misinformation. This is not true. April clearly said that she told the churches she contacted that CC was a for-profit organization. The fact that CC is a for-profit organization is not misleading, but the truth.]
Specifically, it has come to our attention that you have contacted several churches throughout the State of Texas regarding Classical Conversations’ for-profit status and informed them that they may lose their non-profit status by partnering with Classical Conversations. [Note: April never said this to any church per her personal account above.] There is no legal basis for your assertions, which are simply inaccurate, misleading, and false. [Neither is there any basis for Ms. Labriola’s assertions. The narrative they are presenting is fictitious. In fact, it does not exist.] Further, you do not have the professional qualifications that would enable you to render competent advice regarding these matters. [What advice is Ms. Labriola talking about? I don’t recall in April’s narrative that she gave advice. Furthermore, anyone she addressed this to would reasonably come to the conclusion that April was simply an interested party, not wanting any harm to come to a church whose focus is the Gospel of Christ. What a ridiculous conclusion to make that she was acting as a professional and giving professional advice. She’s a mom, for crying out loud.] This applies equally to the information posted on social media regarding nondisclosure and confidentiality agreements. [Maybe it’s just me, but this screams to me that CC is afraid of what might happen to CC if the public finds out how they have conducted their business.]
You have also made numerous defamatory statements concerning Classical Conversations and its business practices and leaders, directing these untruthful statements towards Classical Conversations’ Licensed Directors, local members of your community, individuals on social media and state government agencies. [Once again, Ms. Labriola, on behalf of CC has accused April of making defamatory statements regarding Classical Conversations. I’ve been involved in a defamation lawsuit. I know what it means. According to the legal definition of defamation, they are accusing April of lying intentionally with the intent to cause harm (malice).] Collectively, these false statements [April’s statements weren’t false] have caused unnecessary and unfounded alarm among Classical Conversations’ businesses affiliates and state auditors. Your conduct has harmed and continues to harm Classical Conversations’ reputation and its ability to engage in lawful business activities. [This is called displacement. April is being blamed for “harming” Classical Conversations’ reputation; however, there is a very real likelihood that they may have their own legal issues and harm to deal with, unrelated to April, because of not communicating clearly with host facilities about being a for-profit organization using some non-profit facilities.]
Because Classical Conversations is a North Carolina corporation, your improper conduct and activities directed towards Classical Conversations may subject you to North Carolina law.
[They are attempting to be judge and jury here by claiming improper conduct. They can’t do that. Only the court can do that. The important key word they included is “may.”]
Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful to engage in conduct, such as providing misinformation, that causes an individual or entity to breach a contract or prevents an individual or entity from entering a contact it otherwise would have entered. It is also unlawful to make false statements that harm an entity’s professional reputation, especially when the individual making these statements lacks the professional qualifications to render such opinions. Consequently, your conduct may subject you to claims under North Carolina law for, inter alia, tortious interference with contract, tortious interference with economic advantage, defamation, and the unauthorized practice of law. These claims may entitle Classical Conversations to injunctive and monetary relief for the irreparable harm you have caused.
[Blah, blah, more legalese and threats. April didn’t make false statements, she shared concerns. Remember, the pastor with whom April spoke was surprised about the information she told him. Why didn’t the pastor know? I also spoke with a pastor whose church hosts CC. He, too, did not know this. I have a hunch if I got on the phone and called other pastors, I would get the same story. Why don’t these pastors know that CC is a for-profit business? Is it spelled out plainly in the paperwork? I would sure like to see the paperwork.]
Accordingly, Classical Conversations demands that you immediately cease, directly or indirectly through others:
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- Communicating to individuals and churches misinformation or unfounded speculation as to legal and tax matters on which you are unqualified to advise, including without limitation matters related to the for-profit or not-for-profit status of Classical Conversations and the churches it partners with or may partner with in the future;
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- Interfering with, or directing or instructing anyone to interfere with, Classical Conversations’ current and prospective business interests and relationships, including without limitation any and all relationships with its licensed directors; and
- Posting, writing, or communicating through any medium information concerning Classical Conversations that is unfounded, inaccurate, false, misleading, or defamatory.
In an effort to resolve this matter amicably, within five (5) days of receipt of this letter we request that you: (1) confirm that you will cease and desist from engaging in the activities set forth above; and (2) provide Classical Conversations with copies of any and all letters, e-mails, or other communications that you have sent to churches concerning Classical Conversations’ status as a for-profit entity or related legal and tax matters. If we do not receive such confirmation and documentation, Classical Conversations may have no alternative but to pursue the legal remedies available to it as a necessary means to protect its business interests which your conduct has irreparably damaged.
We look forward to your prompt reply.
Yours very truly,
Deana A. Labriola
cc: Mr. Gary J. Rickner
This is a classic conversation, alright; this is classical attorney-speak, but it’s attempting to have only one side of the conversation be heard. Conversation requires two sides. The cease and desist threat is intended to manipulate, scare, and squelch any conversation CC feels is threatening them (whether the conversation is true or not is beside the point). I’m glad that April has chosen to go public with this. Families involved in CC and those considering CC need to see the truth, and what may happen if questions are asked.
All CC had to do was simply send appropriate answers to address April’s concerns, but they didn’t. But wait . . . why would a company withhold information? Does it make sense for an organization to not want to discuss important tax information or other business-related questions? Something is smelling like rotten fish here. When I get the whiff of rotten fish, it only makes me want to dig deeper.
CC is behaving like a bully. Either they have handled the situation of their for-profit organization working with non-profit facilities, or they haven’t. If they haven’t, then they have a bigger mess, and no wonder they are using an attorney to try to stop the conversation April is bringing up. It’s quite simple to correct the misinformation if April has it wrong. CC has a public website and could address it there quite easily. The question is: why aren’t they addressing it? That should concern any new parent considering CC.
Update 7/18/18: It looks like the final revision I made last night did not update. It is now fixed. Both were in April’s personal account: a very minor edit in the italicized paragraph and the conclusion paragraph was left off entirely. ~ja
photo credit: Patrick Feller Jefferson County Courthouse, Beaumont, Texas 1805311219 via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Just posting to follow comments!
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I think you just wanted to be first 😉
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Where is the other side of the conversation? The emails with National Director?
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Ha! “First!”
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“After finding no negative reviews of the program, I decided to give CC a go, as it seemed to be a good fit.”
No negative reviews, huh? I wonder just how much effort CC people put into online image management, nationwide. And who knows how many parents and churches would decide not to go with CC, if they had the whole picture. They’ve obviously been accustomed to pastors not asking too many questions before.
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The worst part about that letter is that the big expensive lawyer was paid with the hard earned money of the good homeschooling families. Think about where CC is spending your money.
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It looks like the final revision I made last night did not update. It is now fixed. Both were in April’s personal account: a very minor edit in the italicized paragraph and the conclusion paragraph was left off entirely. ~ja
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Well April, I would guess you are shaking uncontrollably after that ” scary letter” as I would when my niece would cover her face with a blanket and then pull it away yelling BOO BOO (she was like 1 1/2 – 2 years old at the time). Later she would cover herself with the blanket and lift herself up like Dracula and say blaa bla . That is basically what this attorney is doing and really making a fool out of herself. I’m familiar with the firm and they are nothing special. Not exactly a crack team of litigators. They have several offices in North Carolina, less than 100 attorneys total and the attorney that wrote you is basically a small business attorney. The firm basically practices in every area of law. Not the type of specialized firm you retain when you actually plan to sue. Litigation attorneys don’t write “scary letters” threatening to file. They just file and take it from there. Unless you live in North Carolina this firm couldn’t sue you. They would have to retain counsel where you live. They could attempt to sue you in N.C. but all you would have to do is appear and make a motion for change of venue as you worked for them in your home state.
That being said I wouldn’t respond to the letter. Well me being me, I might write a response on the bottom of her letter in crayon:
” This week I’m filing a form SS-8 with the IRS so my status with Classical employment Tax Avoilders can be dermined as with respect to my being a part time employee or legitamate independent contractor. Upon ruling by the Service that I’m in fact an part time employee (along with all persons doing the same job or fuction ) under the direct supervision & control of the for profit corporation , I will be filing form 8919 so the Service can correctly compute the unpaid employment taxes and the 100% pentality mandated by congress for misclassification of workers as independent contractors. ”
THAT IS WHAT Classical Conversations ( ie classic cons in my opinion ) is worried about. Their entire business model is classic tax evasion through misclassification of employees as contractors. Avoilding employment taxes (Fica) federal & state employment taxes , social security etc that the employer has to match and unemployment taxes on the entire payroll, is a huge advantage to any illegally operated business.
The positions that are being classified as independent contractors by Classical clearly aren’t as a matter of law. In fact there is a 20 question set of qualifiers and these positions fail a huge number of them. The first person working for CC that files a ss-8 with the IRS will set off a crescendo of tax issues for the company. They will have huge tax acessments going back for years as they clearly are operating outside of sound tax advice and the law. Just goggle the forms I mention or call the IRS. This is a huge area of focus for the Service and the Department of Labor, which along with your State labor board will also start an investigation if contacted. All it takes is a few letters laying it all out.
Ms. Labriola, You are free to think the home school mom you wrote is “unqualified ” to assess your client’s business practices, but I asure you I’m not and neither is the Criminal Enforcement of the Internal Revenue Service. Now go be a good attorney and look up the criminal penalties for misclassifying workers. Yep, it’s a crime and by Friday a letter of complaint will be hand delivered to the CID of IRS which is exactly nine miles from my home. If your letter was intended to intimidate, I’m not impressed.
Oh a hint on the criminal penalties, a year in federal prison and $1,000 fine per misclassified worker. The civil penalty is 40% of the employee’s tax, the entire unpaid employer portion of FICA and an additional 100% civil penalty. Then there is the state acessments from every state where CC has workers.
Have a nice day.
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Unfortunately, not passionate enough about this, but it seems like it would be a great non-profit idea to collect these letters and start petitioning the state licensing boards to disbar these attorneys.
Being somewhat interested in all these cases where district attorneys and social workers overstep their bounds, it seems that the only thing that will stop it is suing the individuals in civil court. Once the “goon squad” realizes that their house, car and lifestyle could be at stake if they abuse citizens, I think they’ll clean up their act, and I think if there are enough instances where the bars have taken a tough stand on malfeasance among their number, it’ll clean things up quite a bit.
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Wondering in the South, you asked
Where is the other side of the conversation? The emails with National Director?
I’m happy to answer with a copy of the email sent to me by the National Director West (he’s now National Director South) and my response to him. He never emailed back or answered the questions in my response. I received the cease and desist letter one week later. You’ll notice in the cease and desist letter that it states “This letter serves as a response to your prior communications with Classical Conversations…” So the threat letter was the response to my good faith questions you’ll see below.
Here is the email sent from the National Director dated May 27, 2016 10:32 am (about 18 hours after I emailed the CC managers about what I was doing but almost two weeks since I’d sent an email about CC to a church):
And here is my response dated May 27, 2016 at 3:40pm:
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Does that remind anyone here of all those Corrupt Churches and Not-a Cults that get exposed all the time on this blog?
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@Scott253:
Sounds like a plan.
Chicago Rules.
P.S. Was this “scary letter” timed to arrive just before a three-day weekend or holiday? So you couldn’t get any counsel or react before a “two-day” deadline before “We will be forced to take legal action (See you in court)”? I got that trick used on me in an inheritance feud many years ago, and it’s the Mark of a Shyster. (“If you weren’t Being so Unreasonable, We Wouldn’t Be Forced to Play Hardball Like This..”)
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
It was, indeed dropped on me at 4:21pm EST on a Friday leaving me really only 2.5 business days to attempt to secure legal counsel and respond. Not a holiday or 3-day weekend, though. I guess they couldn’t afford to wait until the next holiday?
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Scott – I’m assuming you’re an attorney? How protected is CC Corporate because it’s the directors in hundreds of small businesses actually labeling tutors as independent contractors (based on the mostly VERBAL assurances of sales managers that everyone does it this way) vs. being contracted directly with CC?
What about how tutors are expected to attend three days of training by corporate?
Is CC as well covered against a widespread penalty as they think they are?
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(of course this is in addition to the complication that a tutor would have to blow the whistle on her FRIEND – the director – who also isn’t making much money. And there isn’t much anonymity possible when there are only 2-6 tutors per community)
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Kami is right. Tutors (CC teachers) technically work for and are paid by the Directors of individual CC campuses. Directors are licensed by CC and saddled with all of the liability of being “independent business owners” including hiring tutors. Directors are not even granted protections as a franchise, because CC does not follow franchising rules, calling the communities a “business opportunity” not a franchise.
Now, other CC “local leadership” – Support Reps and Area Reps… they are paid by CC. I imagine an ss8 filed with the IRS by a current or former Support or Area Rep might be more effective?
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Thank you for letting your voice be heard, April.
April’s story is so important for those who have been hurt in some way, shape, or form – verbally, non-verbally, or in writing – by Classical Conversations Inc. and their representatives. Know that you are not alone. It is also important for those who refuse to acknowledge the stories of those who are finally coming forward in search of the truth. Above is an ACTUAL LETTER from a lawyer hired by Classical Conversations. This letter CANNOT be denied!!!!! As soon as one of these SSB posts is published, those with blinders covering their eyes assume that these are isolated incidents and that the person telling the story is in the wrong. Then they think they can sweep the negative under the rug by sharing their positive stories and stats, but in effect what their comments reveal is an uncaring attitude of “because that’s not my story, and it didn’t happen in my community, you’re wrong or there must be something wrong with you” leaving the victims are reinjured by implying that they should just get over it because CC isn’t for everyone.
It appears that April’s community DID find what worked for them. However, CC and their representatives STILL tried to bully them into submission. And if that wasn’t good enough, it appears they picked on one homeschooling mom to prove their point. I heard minimal details about this story from several states away during training meetings, but now I have seen PROOF IN WRITING of a story that was easily dismissed among leaders when questions were asked at training. Shame on all those involved in what you did to this family and their community. I certainly don’t think that any church or pastor would agree with the way this was handled.
So, once again, we see that the paying CC customer (that would be YOU, homeschool dad / mom) is NOT allowed to ask questions, speak the truth or write a negative review? Churches and pastors are not given ALL the details of what is taking place under their roof (or, if they do ask questions, Directors can fool them by saying “we’re just a group of homeschooling families” rather than being truthful and saying “I’m a for-profit business who wants to rent your facility”)? Why aren’t Directors given tools and verbiage to represent themselves properly when approaching God’s people regarding the use of their building? With so much required training, why are they all not on the same page?
Aren’t these verbal and written actions of a concerned parent the GOAL of the ENTIRE CC Challenge Program? Aren’t the parents supposed to be learning with their students so they can teach them at home and set a good example of how to use what they have learned to DRAW OUT THE TRUTH? Why then would CC lawyers and CC employees bully a parent for putting into practice what they have learned, expecting submission to their authority, which CC never had over her in the first place, when she is putting into practice the VERY thing she paid for?
As more and more unbelievably RAW, DAMAGING, and HURTFUL stories rise to the surface on this blog and the Let Us Reason -for real- Facebook Group, it seems that Classical Conversations Inc. is losing the control that they think they have in the homeschool world. Hard working DADS and MOMS who are spending hard earned money, this is the kind of company you are funding with your tuition and fees – “One that would attempt to force her to silence by using legal threats”. The threats April received sounds similar to the threats Colleen Truax shared in her detailed story on a previous SSB post. How many more have received threats like this?
I hope CC lawyers are standing by. I wonder how many more secrets they don’t want anyone to discover? And the situation that scott1253 brings to light with utter clarity about misclassifying workers is something that Under a Rock confirmed for me in SSB post CC #1. “I do KNOW that the Leigh was made aware of the IRS Issues which she was bringing to others. I do KNOW that they are cultish in their “not opposing Leigh’s decisions.” And, I do KNOW that I believe they have been a detriment to the home education community. I would love for THEM to “Know and be Known” for their evil practices of jeopardizing so many levels of leaders/ teachers and others who filed improperly. I do NOT understand why they have not had a “day of reckoning” with the IRS. The fines alone would seem to be likely to cause bankruptcy.” According to some of the research I’ve done, that day of reckoning might be on the horizon.
CC has painstakingly reclassified and changed the titles of their OWN employees and Independent Contractors during recent years to meet IRS rules and regulations leaving ARs, SRs, Directors and Tutors to fend for themselves. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put together a chart showing how their business and pay structure works – or doesn’t work. One smart dad or mom could do that rather quickly. F/E Directors who are concerned that they have misclassified their tutors might consider hiring an accountant pronto, and have a lawyer waiting in the wings. In case you have not been told by your AR/SR, or whoever trained you at your Director Licensing Orientation, get your Director Licensing Guide out now and find the “not so easy to find” link to Carol Topp’s FREE book and read through it in haste before you accept another single dollar from an innocent homeschooling family. Landry Academy was NOT immune when the IRS came knocking on their door to investigate “a bunch of homeschooling dads and moms”. Some of those families lost THOUSANDS of dollars.
I smell rotten fish too. They ALWAYS rise to the surface unless they are buried in the sand with the anchor of a wrecked ship on top of them. Digging will hardly be necessary at this point. Other small voices are telling their stories. Robert Bortins, please take the right action and show me that you care about my small voice. Your employees claim on the CC main Facebook page “We care about you.” You won’t find this statement though, because that post was deleted in an effort to hide “something”. Please show us all that at least YOU do care.
One small voice that you silenced added to many other small voices that have been silenced over the years have now become one large voice that is being heard. Parents are being honest with their children about their reasons for leaving CC as they are old enough to understand. Classical Conversations Inc. Chief Officers, there is still time to make known the humility and integrity that you promote in your trainings. I want to believe it is buried below the surface and that telling the truth and making things right for your Employees, Independent Contractors, Licensees, Tutors, Families, and Students is what you choose to do before this next academic year begins. So many homeschool families who have sacrificed time, money, and even MORE for your million dollar business deserve better. Don’t bury your stick in the sand.
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Thank you April for sharing your story and letting the world see CC’s attack letter meant to threaten and intimidate you.
What a bunch of hypocrites! They go on and on about “logic,” claiming to be guardians and spokesmen of “truth” and then they do this??
What April experienced first-hand IS the truth. It appears CC has misrepresented itself to churches, not informing them they are for-profit. When exposed CC sends out a nasty letter, never answering simple questions.
Interesting for a group that claims sharing CC information is gossip, they have no problem threatening lawsuits. How typical they get to pick and choose which biblical standards to uphold.
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Scott 1253
I had heard that an IRS investigation had been attempted in one state a few years ago. I also heard that nothing came of it, either because the IRS found no wrongdoing or because the way CC is structured there would be too many small businesses with too little revenue to warrant pursuing.
I am curious if this is the reason communities are kept so small and even changed and lowered the number of students allowed in a group. It may also be the reason that each level has their own small business. Would putting all levels under one Director be too much money that then legal action would be taken? I don’t know but was always curious. One director per community would make lots of things easier.
The other new thing that would make any government investigation whether it be IRS, Federal Trade Commission or Workman’s Comp harder to investigate is the fact that Directors are no longer allowed to use the Classical Conversations name as part of their business name. They now have to call themselves something else. Why would a business that pays lisencing fees to a company be able to advertise their business using the Classical Conversations name, but cannot use it on their bank account or business lisence if they even have one??
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April, thank you for sharing. If you are anything like me, you may be mostly over the threat yourself but feel compelled to warn others. I have had people tell me to just move on. Today, I had a friend share that she was hurt that some of her Christian friends didn’t warn her about a very important issue. She was reminding me that as a Christian, it would be wrong of us to know about the snake on the path and not warn our friends/brothers of the real threat just around the bend. Because of the sheer numbers of unsuspecting families involved, I believe this is so important.
I am part of a non-profit, nothing like CC, free homeschool co op run by a church. I shared about the group in a
Christian FB page. We were using the Foundations Guide in one of our many classes. Everyone owned the book. So in essence we were all CC customers.
A director attacked me personally on the FB page. She questioned my integrity and salvation and accused me of violating copyright. I sent her a private message and she continued to attack me. She tagged her Support Rep in the thread. In the private message she encouraged me to get a lawyer to make sure I wasn’t violating copyright law.
A few weeks later, Keith Denton COO of Classical Converaations sent the church an email. He never came out and said we were doing anything wrong, but suggested it, and offered to help the church start a CC group.
It seems they try to make their copyright seem more than it is and verbally tell people what they want, assuming that Good Christians won’t question and will “Come under authority”.
I have to admit I was scared of receiving a Cease and Desist. I’ll admit I lost sleep over this issue. In the end, after a lot of research, I realized that they just want control. We dumped the book. Not because CC said to, but because we wanted to get as far away from a company that treats people this way as we could. That Director got what she wanted, but the company lost revenue because they trained her to behave that way.
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I’d never heard of this group until I saw Julie Anne start her series of blogs about it. Julie Anne, I loved how you made your comments in the text of the attorney letter- makes your points stand out more. What nonsense….but I wonder just how many letters of this type have been sent out to scare people and silence them… Kudos to you and April on this! Passing this along to my readers.
And to Scott’s comments, if they had your address they’d surely be sending you a similar letter pronto! LOL I will be curious to see what comes of this.
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Thanks, Lois! Good to “see” you 🙂
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Thank you for this series. I have several friends who are heavily involved in CC, and I have worked practicums a couple times to help out a friend, even though I have no school age children. While I personally never had a bad experience during my very limited interaction with CC, it all seemed very clique-ish to me, especially as an “outsider.” I’ve had reservations about it being a good program for my family when my children reach school age, but this series and all the comments make me want to stay far, far away.
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scott1253, you commented, “Oh a hint on the criminal penalties, a year in federal prison and $1,000 fine per misclassified worker. The civil penalty is 40% of the employee’s tax, the entire unpaid employer portion of FICA and an additional 100% civil penalty.”
Would I be correct in understanding that if a tutor filed an ss8 against their Director for being misclassified as an Independent Contractor rather than an employee, that these penalties would apply to the Director?
And if an Area Representative or Support Representative filed an ss8 against Classical Conversations for the same misclassification CC would also be subject to the same penalties?
Where can I find more information on this and a list of the 20 questions? thx.
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“A director attacked me personally on the FB page. She questioned my integrity and salvation and accused me of violating copyright.”
The minute someone questions your salvation over issues such as these you can go directly to labeling it as cultic behavior.
She can disagree over copyright issues and she can even question your integrity, but the minute someone brings salvation into an issue like this… they cross a serious line. That’s where something becomes clearly cultic in my view. It’s not even a question of if. They have crossed the Rubicon and unless they sincerely walk back that comment and publicly apologize for it, they are not worthy of having further discussion with you. That’s just sick and twisted to question someone’s salvation over things like this.
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Threat letters. From bigwigs in the business of homeschooling.
That reminds me ever so slightly of this case:
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2012/12/11/the-homeschool-movement-michael-farris-patrick-henry-college-and-his-response-to-a-lgbt-group/
The people of QueerPHC showed guts and brains by publishing Farris’ bogus threat letter. I applaud April in the same way.
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Pretty sure the copyright thing is bogus… unless you intend to make copies of the book. Maybe if you are a licensee, you agree to use the book in the ways that the contract obliges you to, but I just went to their page and put a book in my cart. If they allow me to purchase the book without making me agree to whatever their license is, then I’m only obligated to standard copyright law.
Imagine how angry judges would get if every individual author could create their own contract applied to their copyright for what the book could be used for. Mine would be something like, if you read page 100, you owe me $100 million dollars. That would be great!
Then we’d get a bunch of smart students that copyright their term papers… If you read my term paper, you must pay me. It’s be a hoot!
Remember the whole FB thing where people were trying to put copyright terms on their posts? That worked out for them, I’m sure.
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@April:
Figured as much.
That’s an OLD trick tactic used by crooked lawyers. And sociopaths.
Though “It’s LEGAL!” (and they’ll always remind you of that fact), it’s VERY underhanded and shady.
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“A director attacked me personally on the FB page. She questioned my integrity and salvation and accused me of violating copyright.”
So bending the knee and burning the pinch of incense to them (“Classical Conversations is LOOOORD!”) is now Salvation-Level Dogma? Like YEC, The Rapture, and Donald Trump?
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@Headless Unicorn Guy
Yeah. The first person knowledge in legal matters with whom I could speak by the time I got the email (after COB on that Friday) said essentially that I needed to take it seriously but that it was a jerk move. She writes legit C&Ds a lot and she said basic legal courtesy is to give two weeks to comply.
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April, at any point did you contact CC Corporate in person or by phone with another party present to address your questions? I mean besides within the FB groups?
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April, I think this person might be asking about Matt 18 and bringing a witness.
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@askingforafriend,
You wrote:
April, at any point did you contact CC Corporate in person or by phone with another party present to address your questions? I mean besides within the FB groups?
(If this answer is too long for anyone please skip to the stars below – the sum up.)
I agree with @Julie Anne. I believe you are asking if I fully followed a Matthew 18 process. Please allow me to explain to you my thinking on two levels:
It was impossible for me to “follow a Matthew 18 process” in this. Matthew 18 does not apply.
Even if it did apply, I can show you how my actions would hopefully satisfy anyone’s concerns about whether or not I attempted a Matthew 18 approach.
Matthew 18:15-17 says (English Standard Version):
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
You’re asking if I contacted a corporation, in person or by phone, with another party present – presumably step two of Matthew’s three-step process.
Who do you say is “CC Corporate”? It is not one person, is it? Let’s say it was my lowest level of “CC leadership”, my former director. No, it was not she who sinned against me. What about the next level up? The Support Representative. I certainly disagreed with her about many things. The same goes for the next two levels up, Area Representative and Sales Manager.
I could make a case that Andrew Truitt, the next level up (we’re at five levels up in the multi-level company now), sinned against me when I asked questions I was invited by him to ask and they were answered with a legal threat letter. (You can read his email to me and my response in a comment from me further up on this same post.) I suppose I could have emailed Me. Truitt again, but he had already ignored me once. I didn’t have his phone number. I was already legally threatened and afraid.
I could make a decent case here that Matthew 18 became obsolete when the being to whom you refer as “CC Corporate” skipped straight to legal threats. Peace process over.
But lets back up. Were I to attempt to raise an issue with the person who made the decision to have a legal threat letter sent to me, I’d have to know who that person was. I certainly would not be granted audience with Robert Bortins, Jr, CEO or Leigh Bortins, mother, founder. And who’s to say they even made the decision? Did you think I could make a phone call to CC’s customer service and lodge a Matthew 18 complaint? I’ve called them before with questions and every time been referred back to my “local leadership”. (That’s CC talk for Support Rep or Area Rep.)
Here we have identified two circumstances which might reasonably nullify a Matthew 18 application in this situation: 1. the fact that a legal attack had already been threatened agsinst me and 2. the implausibility of identifying a singular person to whom I might go with my issue.
But, let’s keep going. Let’s go to step three of Matthew 18:15-17 and look at whether it can be reasonably applied.
Let’s say I was able to take a witness with me to Andrew Truitt, after he ignored my email response. Or even if I got an audience with Robert Bortins, Jr. or Leigh Bortins. And what if they “refused to listen”? Step three instructs me to “tell it to the church”. The Greek word here is Ekklesia. Some Biblical commentators believe that means a local church of Christians. Some believe it means the body of Christ as a whole, the Church universal.
If the meaning is the local church, to which local church should I appeal? Leigh Bortins’ church in North Carolina (I’m guessing)? My church in Texas? Or if the meaning of Ekklesia is the Church universal then, well, what am I doing here? I’m “telling it to the Church.”
The truth is, I don’t believe one can apply a true “Matthew 18 approach” to a multi-million dollar corporation. Because, at both levels – at the level of the one who sinned against me and at the level of the church – to whom would I go?
You know that part in Philippians where Paul talks about how we are not to put confidence in the flesh or the Law, but if we were… Paul says he would be blameless? He was as law-abiding as one might be able to find. A “Hebrew of Hebrews”. And yet that did not matter because it did not apply to the current situation. It did not apply to Jesus’ new law of Grace.
Well, I’m no Apostle Paul, but I’m going to take a page from his playbook and explain to you how I followed Matthew 18 as close as anyone could in my situation even though I don’t think it applies to my situation.
When our Support Representative/friend returned from training and began pushing for changes in our community, I spoke to her privately. She “would not listen”. Next, I spoke to her with other Christian sisters. She “would not listen”.
When our Support Representative would not listen, I spoke privately with the Area Representative. It was in this conversation that our community were compared to children and CC leadership the parents. Next, I spoke to her with other Christian brothers and sisters in a meeting. She “would not listen”.
I was never granted private audience with the next level up, the Sales Manager, but she was present at the meeting I referenced above. She “would not listen”.
Once I began contacting churches, I emailed those three levels of “CC leadership” – Support Rep, Area Rep, Sales Manager. They did not respond/”would not listen”.
Instead the next level up, a National Director, emailed me to tell me to stop. I responded to his email. He ignored that email. He “did not listen”. Next came the legal threat letter from CC.
Since then I have reached out in private contact with a contracted CC worker who says that she helps bring resolution to issues like mine. I met her while openly discussing my issues in a Facebook group. Otherwise, I would not have even know to contact her. She took my testimony and said she would bring my issue up with her “leadership”. She would not tell me who her “leadership” was.
My first contact with her about this matter of my cease and desist letter was March 22. I was told a person in “CC leadership” would call me within hopefully a week.
I contacted her next on April 25 to say I had not been contacted by anyone in “leadership”. At that point she took the time to take a statement from me that pretty much is a lot of what I’ve written here on this post. She had me approve her account of my grievances and sent that on with a prod to her “leadership” and asked me to contact her if I had not heard anything in another month.
The final time I contacted her about this issue was May 31st. She expressed frustration that I had not yet been contacted.
It’s July 24th and no one in “leadership” has contacted me. I don’t feel like they are listening.
To sum it all up:
I don’t believe there is a being who is CC Corporate. Nor do I believe there is a local church to whom I might appeal. Therefore, I don’t see how one can possibly apply Matthew 18 to this situation.
However, if one could apply Matthew 18 to this situation, the answer to the question of did I contact “CC Corporate” with another party present is, “Yes.” I attempted to contact whomever might be the being to whom you refer as “CC Corporate” privately and with others as witnesses. I attempted it so. many. times.
They “refused to listen”.
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@askingforafriend,
If you were truly asking for a friend, please direct my respond to her/him.
I wanted to add something that I didn’t add yesterday because my response was getting very long.
This one is simple: that CC was willing to eschew a Matthew 18 approach but that many still-involved CC members and leaders continue to question whether or not I followed a Matthew 18 approach is proof of how they use that holy scripture as a weapon to question and discredit.
They knew who I was. They could have begun a Peacemaker process with me. I was not even granted the knowledge of exactly who was threatening me, other than “Classical Conversations, Inc.”.
They were in a much better position to actually follow a Peacemaker/Matthew 18 approach with me, while I was left to guess whom I should approach. I was ignored by 4 levels of “CC leadership” whom I approached, and I am currently on month 5 of being ignored in my most recent approach.
So, please ask your friend: why is a Matthew 18 approach – which is nearly impossible for me – demanded of me while apparently CC, Inc. (whoever that is) gets a pass?
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Does it not smell of cult to have a “for-profit corporation” that wants to be considered a “brother” for purposes of Matthew 18.
Would you do the same for Amazon or Facebook or Wal-Mart?
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HA! Good point, Mark.
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April, thank you SO MUCH for your response. I AM actually asking for a friend who responded when I reposted this post on FB. I have directed her here again, and indeed said basically the same thing before I read your second post!
I agree…CC has all the power here, and is wielding it with silence, instead of approaching with humility and grace. It’s…awful. Again. Thank you for sharing, and responding to me!! And….for sharing in the first place.
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Hi April, I am the friend who asked about this. Thank you for your replies and for sharing your story. I had not heard of Matthew 18 and wondered how it applies in this situation. A friend of my friend commented about the failure to use Matthew 18 on her wall on Facebook which is what prompted my question to her. It is unfortunate and disgraceful that this kind of finger pointing exists. Why did no one offer to help you??
Thank you for speaking about this and being willing to educate others. In your shoes, I would not have the Biblical knowledge to defend myself. I find that disturbing since being unequipped should not be a disadvantage in a Christian community. I cannot be in a community that will bully others into silence. I appreciate knowing more about CC since I have considered it in the past.
Keep speaking up. I admire you all.
Cori
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Wow, @askingforafriend and @Wonder in the Woods, thank you!
I admit I was feeling a little defensive when the question was asked. There have been so many who want to dismiss CC’s actions and pick apart mine. I’ve even heard that I “had it coming”. So, your validation is very much appreciated.
Thank you for sharing the post, I hope your friend understands better now. Thank you for helping facilitate that possibility!
April
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Everyone keeps mentioning this obvious and clearly documented misclassification of workers as independent, yet why has no one made a report to the proper authority for investigation as to whether this is true? If it is fact and they have thousands of “employees,” you are talking about them owing an astronomical amount of unpaid taxes to the Federal and state governments depending on how many years they can go back for that.
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Because the direct ‘employer’ is another local homeschool mom, the local group director, likely a friend. She probably just set it up ‘the CC way’.
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Exactly what Kami said. The vast majority of the ICs in CC are tutors. To file for a potential misclassification means filing against your director – another mom or dad. The directors are not paid directly by CC. They are paid by the families and, in fact, pay CC for the right to use their name (licensing), so they aren’t really ICs for CC. (Though CC had a very clear “you are an IC” clause in their director contracts at least through 2015. Kinda makes you wonder what kind of crack team puts together their contracts.)
The people I think should file an ss8 form with the IRS to determine if they have been misclassified by CC Corporate are support reps, area reps, trainers, etc… But you just don’t meet a lot of those wo/men who are willing to pursue that. I think the SR/AR training is… altering. I’ve listened to a lot of stories of mistreatment from a lot of people associated with CC, and there are shockingly few former SRs in that number and even fewer former ARs.
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p.s. An SR or an AR or any other contracted worker paid directly by CC, Inc. does NOT have to be currently contracted to file an ss8 form with the IRS to determine is s/he should have been classified as an employee by CC, Inc. Generally speaking, the IRS can go back three years on a classification issue. So if you are a former SR or AR and want to see if you can get back some of the self-employment tax you paid by filling an ss8 form to see if you were classified correctly, you certainly can even if you were contracted with CC 3 tax years ago. Here’s the link to find out more: https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-ss8
p.p.s. I’m not a tax expert of any kind. I’m telling you what anyone can find out online.
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It is unfortunate that your directors and support reps could not explain the simple “whys” to you which seems to have led to a righteous indignation and mission to expose what you believe are the wrongs of the organization.
I wonder what your underlying motivation was to alert at least 10 area pastors of the tax structure of CC? Did you pray before doing that and before taking every subsequent step to let the LORD guide you in every interaction with and about CC?
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Micah, you wrote:
I wonder what your underlying motivation was to alert at least 10 area pastors of the tax structure of CC? Did you pray before doing that and before taking every subsequent step to let the LORD guide you in every interaction with and about CC?
I will answer your questions, though I say with love that I find them to be spiritually manipulative. I do not owe you assurance that my actions were Spirit led. Not only that, your questions have the effect of detracting from the real issue here.
It is not that the CC leaders I dealt with “could not” explain the simple “whys” to me. They refused to do so.
The fact that MANY churches do not know CC communities are for-profit is wrong. My motives surely should be considered much less important than that fact, shouldn’t they?
To answer you, though, my motive was absolutely to help prevent churches from possibly getting hurt.
I did cover all of the big actions in prayer. In fact, I remember praying hard as I hovered over the “send” button on my first email to a church, searching my own heart for anger. I prayed over the course of 5 hours to remove any anger from my heart and response to Andrew Truitt’s mildly threatening email that he sent in response to my email to lower CC leaders – an email I also prayed about before sending.
I cannot claim to have prayed over every single action and word I have used with regard to CC. I believe God has led me in most of what I have said and done with regard to CC.
Please think about your questions. You sound like you may perhaps be a pastor or Christian leader. Please think about how it appears when your first question is not WHY churches were not told proactively that CC is for-profit but what MY motives were and whether I checked off your listed spiritual boxes before I exposed CC’s behavior.
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Micah, what was your Spirit led reason to post this question to April?
Assuming the churches were not misled when the arrangements were made for the group to meet there it would be a big non-issue when they got the email?
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I see. Isn’t it also the church’s responsibility to ask questions of whom they rent their space to? Most often, this kind of decision has to go through a church board. Did no one “Google” Classical Conversations or ask the applicant about the group’s tax status (if this was an over-arching concern)?
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This blog should be titled…
“When you’re a bored stay at home mom with no job and nothing better to do”
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HA – if you only knew, Gary! Surely that was an April Fool’s joke! 🙂
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Hi, Gary. This is April, the woman you are talking about in your comment.
I want you to know that I forgive you, and I’m so sad for you.
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Micah, “Isn’t it also the church’s responsibility to ask questions of whom they rent their space to?”
I’m sure they did, but they didn’t know the “right” questions to ask. I think you’re trying to undo the deceit that is involved here. If the for-profit status is likely to raise concerns in the church, an above board corporation would make sure that was clearly stated. You seem to think that churches have the resources and energy to do a full police investigation into anyone that asks to use the facility to make sure that there is no deceit.
I rented a church for my wedding because ours was too small. They didn’t ask to look at my marriage license. They didn’t make sure my wife and I were equally yoked. They asked for a check.
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I don’t know if CC structured itself properly, but it should have made each campus a franchise. There are franchise agreements that protect the brand image and structure in the public domain. If you license the Nike logo, you don’t get to change the color because you think it’s tacky. Either license it, or don’t. Unfortunately, it sounds like the courts will decide whether or not CC had standing. I hope that the court is also called on to decide if these two women should be held liable for slander or libel.
You purchased into the program, you agreed to use it under certain terms, and this whole thing feels like you are throwing a “let me speak to your manager because I didn’t get my way” tantrum. It’s their brand and the integrity of their product that they are protecting. It’s the brand that gives their company value and they are permitted to protect that brand. They are permitted for the same reason that Jack in the box franchisees don’t get to decide to use different burger wrappers or offer aunt bee’s homemade pies or point of sale systems, etc.
The thing I find most shameful is that you two women can’t handle this in a way that protects the children. Let them finish the school year if you feel you want to stomp and spit and try to sabotage them. Your decision to push this now clearly indicates that what YOU want trumps what’s best for the students- just for a tantrum because they didn’t do what you want. You’re setting a terrible example for the children in your campus, negatively impacting the lives of hundreds of other students in other campuses , being drama and stress to church pastors just trying to do help, and sewing discord in the body. You should be ashamed of yourself and I hope that even though you are derelict I’m your duty to set food examples, the legal system can make you an example out of you so that your children learn that sometimes temper tantrums backfire.
Shame on you.
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Your Fellow CC’er,
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
*If anyone gets the movie reference they get bonus points.
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Your Fellow CC’er,
I think you are mixing things up. The cease and desist threat letter that CC, Inc. sent to me over contacting a handful of local CC host churches was sent back in 2016. This blog post has been up for months.
I believe your ire is misplaced. If churches did not know that the CC communities meeting there are/were for-profit, that fault lies squarely on the shoulders of people other than me.
Also, ouch. What a response. You are not representing Classical Conversations customers well. But I forgive you for your heartless response to the harrowing experience my family and I were dealt at the hands of a multi-million dollar corporation. May it never happen to you.
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That movie is HILARIOUS Ioolamay🤣😂🤣😂 Excellent use of it👍👍👍
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This saddens me. Your response to poor leadership, that is. And sure, that’s what it boils down to. Is that a reason to turn everyting on its head? I’m with Your Fellow CC’er. You guys are just being petty because you didn’t get to have it your way. If you didn’t like the program you could have just left. Now we’re all in jeopardy, so thanks for that. Thanks for thinking only of yourself and vowing to take down some big bad for-profit organization with you. Every curriculum company out there is for profit. Your brand of justice is neither needed nor appreciated. It is the church’s responsibility to know who they’re letting in their doors. Sure, directors need to disclose this information as well, but that’s a small fixable training issue.
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I coulsn’t figure out a way to reply directly to you, NoneOYobiz (what an uplifting screenname, by the way). I have been a part of CC for 6 years. I have a wonderful community and would love if CC could flourish, but not at the expense of my church and my friends who are directors. What logic are you following to believe that this woman notifying a handful of local churches 3 years ago is the cause of what is currently occuring throughout the nation? And how can you possibly suggest that she is culpable? CC cannot be “brought down” by a few disgruntled moms. If they business is structured properly and obeying all regulations—Federal, State and Local—what does anyone have to fear? If they are brought down because of flagrant violation of regulations such as tax codes and employee misclassification (including improper use of volunteers), then that is CC’s doing, and it hurts all of us mothers who have invested our time and money in this venture, including the mom discussed in this article. To say otherwise is naïeve and ignorant. How on earth did you read all above and arrive at the conclusion that this was about poor leadership? Is it poor? Yes. But that’s not the issue at hand. CC has been made fully aware of documented legal issues in their business organization and continues to send out exercises in deflection that obfuscate the truth about these matters. They reorganized in CA after the ABC ruling was handed down, but what about MA & NJ, which have had ABC laws in effect even longer? Is it my fault if I raise such issues because I believe that we, as Christians, are to be above reproach and are to seek justice and above the law?
And you agree with Your Fellow CC’er? About what? What logical argument is there to her statement that one should wait to raise awareness to legal improprieties? Maybe you want to teach your children to be deceitful snd delay presenting the truth, possibly causing hurt to a host church and your director, but how would such actions be in line with Scripture? How would delaying be anything but selfishness? I am teaching my sons to walk in integrity and honesty and protecting the Church of Christ are hallmarks of that. If my host church, finding out about this situation, wants to end their association with CC, that is their right. If it happens in the middle of the school year because they’ve now realized they could receive a tax bill for the portion of property used by a for-profit company, then I lay that problem at CC’s feet. There is no Biblical defense against violating laws that do not conflict with Scriptural mandates. Your belief that CC is being attacked is based on false assumptions and illogical premises. Instead, light is being shone on what was hidden and transparency is being called for by a growing number of us who had an expectation that the company we were supporting and paying money to was a Christian one that would act in a manner that was upright. I believe Christian businesses should be held to a higher standard than the World. I would take exception to ANY company encouraging such things, but a Christian one? It is distasteful and has left so many of us torn. Some of us are calling on CC to implement changes so we can continue in good conscience because we cannot continue in good faith any longer. We have done the research, presented them with proof, and have been rewarded with manipulation, obfuscation, and deceitful deflection. It is sort of like in the Reformation—at first, Christians, hoping for Biblical unity, stayed within the R.C. Church, calling for reformation, purity, and a return to the teaching of Scripture, before they realized that it was hopeless, and no unity could be reached when one entity would not embrace the Truth.
CC is not without options and has not been backed into a corner. This issue has been raised for years and they thought they could sweep it under the carpet. They have had time to make changes in the background to reaolve such issues, to keep this upheaval from occurring, to ensure everyone’s communities could continue to function in peace, but they have chosen to delay and deny. They could have pursued a nonprofit with charters, or a nonprofit/for-profit hybrid model to separate their different companies and allow communities to remain in churches if they were under the nonprofit arm, created franchises and told everyone to move out of nonprofit space, and probably other options I don’t even know about. But their lack of response has resulted in the current state of things. Please review the history of things and talk to lawyers and accountants who are not associated with CC so you can see what is really at stake, and perhaps step outside of your personal rage and hurt to see why these actions are necessary (as whistleblowers often are in the face of businesses who choose to continue in an unethical manner).
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“Now we’re all in jeopardy, so thanks for that.”
You’re in jeopardy because someone spilled the beans, or because the practice was illegal in the first place? Maybe you watched too much Looney Tunes where Wile. E. Coyote doesn’t actually fall until Road Runner points out he just ran off the cliff?
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LOL, Mark!
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I’m reading along to all perspectives here. One question that seems to have been raised in recent comments, but I’m not sure if it’s been answered or not: Are you original posters (April or Julie Anne?) connected in some way to the letters that churches hosting CC communities have received in the past month or so, warning about potential risk to churches’ property tax exemptions if they host a CC community?
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http://churchfacilitysolutions.com/tax-information-nonprofits-renting-extra-space/
I don’t know why it would be a problem that churches are being warned that renting to a for-profit like CC may require them to pay property taxes. Who cares who does it. I would like to be informed if some activity I’m doing puts in in jeopardy of significantly higher taxes!
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NONEOYOBIZ, “You guys are just being petty because you didn’t get to have it your way.”
We follow this guy named Jesus who saw the powerful taking advantage of the powerless and decided to do something about it. He called public attention to how the weak and poor were being oppressed. Maybe it was “none of his biz”, but he took that upon himself and told his followers to follow in his example.
I don’t recall Jesus saying, “be the best ostrich you can be. Just bury your head and hope all your problems go away.” I think he said something more like, “shine the light in the darkest places”. Seems like CC abusing tax law so they can make immoral profit is a pretty dark place.
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Mark,
Brother in Christ, you turned my day around. I’ve stopped responding to these, just downright mean comments, but they hurt. I hate it that they do, but they hurt.
You have been Jesus to me today. You know, the real one? The one who tongue-lashed Pharisees and drove marketeers from the temple, yet spoke love and truth, with utter lack of judgement to the woman caught in adultery, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, and the woman at the well?
Thank you.
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Wowzers! Reading this post and the comments has me less sure about taking on the a role of directing a challenge program next school year. I’m just not sure I can stomach CC corporate devouring more of my family’s money or my teaching skill. In all matters of liability, I hear a multi-million dollar corporation telling me I need spend my money to seek legal council or seek a tax professional’s help.
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Oh April,
You may be trying to get back at CC for how they have offended you/not communicated with you/disrespected you/hurt your feelings, but you may not be realizing how this is affecting families in our areas. Actual homeschooling families, whole communities, parents and children who have loved doing CC for years, but whose communities are closing because churches are closing their doors to homeschooling communities because of the fear that’s been raised. It’s a shame that this is causing so much division and the discussion in this thread is hardly God honoring. I wish you would have thought about how your actions would affect the rest of us too, regular parents with regular kids. Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t. Meanwhile, we have no place to meet next year. Did this hurt corporate CC? Probably not. Is this hurting our 23 families? Absolutely.
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Saddened, your blame is misplaced. It should be aimed toward CC owners who are putting homeschooling families, churches, and teachers at risk. It’s never appropriate to blame someone who is exposing truth to prevent harm.
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You’re exposing your version of the truth, your side of the story. There’s so much misinformation and lack of accountability in how you’re setting this story up and leading this conversations.
I don’t think what I’ve said will change your opinion at all, but I just wanted to leave this here to let you guys know how this has affected our community, real people, not lawyers and leaders of CC, whom you’re intended to “expose.”
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Just imagine if back a few years ago when April told a couple local churches that CC was non-profit ….. what if CC had responded by changing how they operate instead of trying to silence April?
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Saddened,
This post is about my emailing a handful of churches in my area three years ago.
If you are referencing the recent, much more widespread letter-mailing, your blame is STILL misplaced. The letter-senders did not set up your community for failure. CC does, in fact, hurt from the failure of your community. If you had 23 families and only F/E, your director was sending probably $5,000+ to CC corporate as “licensing fees” every year. Has corporate already accepted your community’s thousands for next year (“application fees” are the licensing fees in F/E) without knowing if you have a place to meet? Your blame is indeed misplaced.
Still, I forgive you for making assumptions about my actions and for your condemnation. I do not condemn you for lashing out at the wrong people in your sadness.
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Saddened, we have whistleblower laws in our society because of people like you who are going to blame the whistleblower instead of the people who deceived.
The Challenger disaster was caused by a simple failure – O-rings that were too brittle at the launch temperature of the shuttle. They failed to seal the joints of the rocket boosters, which leaked and eventually caused a fuel tank to rupture and explode. Seven people died in the explosion which was watched by elementary students across the nation because it was carrying the first teacher to space.
Now, in the aftermath, it was discovered that four whistleblowers tried to stop the launch due to the risk of the freezing temperatures on the seals, but they were ignored by management. When the disaster happened, both NASA and Morton Thiokol tried to obstruct the investigation by hiding files and telling employees not to speak with the media. If you research Roger Boisjoly you’ll find that in the aftermath of the disaster, he was treated worse than garbage by bringing attention to the failure and subsequent coverup.
So, Classical Conversations is abusing the tax code in multiple ways, is deceiving churches and putting them in a position where they could lose their real estate tax exemption, but all you can think about is how hard THE TRUTH makes it for you?
I’ve always thought that they should add a chapter to “The Emporer’s New Clothes” where the townfolk all get together and lynch the kid, because based on the responses I hear to people being confronted with THE TRUTH, it seems the most likely conclusion.
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Dear Saddened,
You said to April,
Or, as clearly stated in her article, she might just be trying to warn churches and the public about CC’s violations of the tax code. Do you really think they should be allowed to flout the laws of the land, for the sake of your children?
Where, exactly, is the misinformation involved here? Please be specific.
How is this “hurting” your families? What precisely are you trying to guilt-trip April with? Are you really suggesting that there are no other homeschooling resources at your disposal?
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I’ve been mostly staying out of this, (although I have a friend who does CC and seems rather cultishly fond of it.)
Reading through some of this now…
I don’t know if this is true, but it appears that having the ‘curriculum’ be for profit is not the issue. It’s this whole pseudo school system thing, and the tax implications of that. If CC weren’t involved in all these individual groups (and getting lots of money from them it appears) and were really just ‘selling curriculum’ then the various tax issues wouldn’t’ have come up. If I’m reading this right.
IT sounds like the churches would be the ones in hot water over this, so it’s pretty terrible to blame anyone for warning them if a group is indeed misrepresenting themselves as a non-profit.
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I want to know how much money Leigh pulls in from CC each year. My wife and I were wondering why they were changing the songs every year so that we couldn’t re-use the Cycle 1 CDs from 3 years ago, and now we know: Leigh wants more of our money! Even the songs that occur each year are slightly changed, like the New Testament Books song. And what about the $6/mo subscription to CC connected? That’s a cash cow!
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Anonymous, you are not the only one I have seen bringing up this issue. I find that ridiculous.
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party line: “repetition is good. Going through the same cycle 2-3 times during elementary school cements it in the memory”
Also party line: “kids are flexible – it’s ok if the memory work is different each time through the cycle”
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So, does CC Inc have an explanation of how they are able to be for-profit using non-profit facilities? This all begs the question, is this deceptive practice being actively taught to directors?
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Apparently so. I’ve heard that pastors who share the facilities to these groups are not given full disclosure.
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I can answer that directly. I personally spoke to three church leaders in churches either currently hosting or being asked to host a CC Community who were not at all aware that what was called to the churches a “group of homeschoolers meeting together” were for-profit businesses.
Whether or not this approach is taught or encouraged by CC operatives is murky waters (purposefully?). Most Directors are trained by SRs who are training by ARs (each SR and AR classified and paid by CC Corporate as “independent contractors”), but the ARs, as I understand it are trained by CC employees. So, one does wonder: how do so many churches find it shocking to find out the CC community which has been meeting in its building, is for-profit if directors and SRs (the two main entities that find churches in which to meet) are being trained to disclose that information up front? I would posit: they are not?
Here’s a place to go to find one incident where Robert Bortins shared, to the consternation of the tax assessor himself, a letter from this one county’s tax assessor that Mr. Bortins proffered as great news for the rest of the country in terms of whether for-profit CC communities (owned NOT by the CC Corporation but by Betty Sue Homeschooler who paid the corporation thousands for a license to operate her business using CC’s educational model). Go to http://www.facebook.com/groups/letusreasonforreal and search “town hall meeting” then Alamance. Be sure to read down a ways.
Does/Did CC Corporation teach its operatives to hide their for-profit status from the church? Maybe? Not really? Does/Did CC Corporation teach its operatives to clearly disclose to the church up front that the community will be a for-profit business? Also, not really?
Does CC Corporation obfuscate the truth about whether or not a church could be charged property taxes because a for-profit CC community meets there. Absolutely. Search the above mentioned Facebook group for “town hall meeting” and Alamance. Also read this story: https://julieroys.com/classical-conversations-churches-property-tax-exemption/
Let level heads decide for themselves.
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