***
-by Kathi
***
Tim Bayly is the pastor at Clearnote Church in Bloomington, Indiana, and president of Clearnote Pastors College. He received his M.Div. from Gordon-Cornwell Theological Seminary and is the author of the book, “Daddy Tried: Overcoming the Failures of Fatherhood.” Tim writes with Joe Bayly at Warhorn – Out of Our Minds. They formerly wrote at Balyblog.
Tim Bayly has a lot of opinions, but this recent Facebook post stood out:
***
Pastor Bayly’s text reads:
Not sure whom to pity more, the citizens Sen. Duckworth represents or the baby she gave birth to? But surely the baby. Duckworth’s constituents voted 4 her but the poor baby had no choice. The mother of a newborn choosing the Senate over nursing her baby is shameful, yet we celebrate it.
According to the CNN article in Bayly’s post:
Duckworth is a retired Army lieutenant colonel who was a helicopter pilot in the Iraq War. She was the first female double amputee from the war after suffering severe combat wounds when her Black Hawk helicopter was shot down.
Senator Duckworth (D-IL) is the first active U.S. Senator to give birth while in office. Due to stringent Senate rules, she proposed a resolution to allow children under the age of one on the Senate floor. This proposal was passed unanimously and on April 19th she was wheeled on to the Senate floor with her baby daughter to cast a vote.
Senator Duckworth has opened the path for senators who are parents of infant children to continue their duties while caring for their child.
***
What would cause a Christian such as Tim Bayly to shame working mothers and those who support them? There is nothing new with mothers working. Mothers work for various reasons, including the need to take care of their family. Did Tim have a conversation with Senator Duckworth where she confirmed she was choosing the Senate over her baby?
Perhaps Tim Bayly has an all-around problem with Tammy Duckworth. Let’s review her credentials: high-ranking military official, which means she ordered men. Democrat. She creates and votes on rules for our country. She is a married, working mother.
Perhaps Tim doesn’t believe that a woman should serve her country in a government position. Or, perhaps a woman can serve in a government role, but only as a single woman. But, I could see how that could cause problems too. I’m guessing she doesn’t fit Tim’s idea of a good, submissive wife and mother.
Does Tim Bayly think it is important for fathers of newborn infants to bond with their child? Why not hold new fathers to the same standard and pity these children?
For whatever reason, this Christian man decided to provide disrespectful commentary on a decorated veteran who continues to serve her country as an elected official. Not only did he disrespect her, but he disrespected millions of working women whose daily lives depend upon their jobs. I don’t think Senator Duckworth’s constituents or infant child are the ones to be pitied.
***
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Him, John Piper and the likes should be made to carry a medical bracelet that says: ‘In case of emergency please ensure no women come to my aid’. I would like to see if they hold up to this standard.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“What would cause a Christian such as Tim Bayly to shame working mothers and those who support them?”
How about the fact that she clearly isn’t following his ridiculous religious rules, and so is obviously lacking the appropriate level of respectful kowtowing. With men like that (who apparently believe they have the God-given right to dictate and control other people’s behaviour) you either submit to their ‘godly authority’, or you become a target.
LikeLike
I pity guys like Tim Bayly the most.
Bayly is trapped in his ignorant, sexist bubble, and saddest of all, due to poor hermeneutics, he thinks the Bible (and God) actually supports his horrible views.
Remember back in the 1990s, there was an uproar in the papers (this was pre internet) when some Head Cheese of the Southern Baptist Church (I totally forget his name) said critical stuff about working mothers – he was saying it was wrong or sinful for working mothers to drop their kids off at day care.
For days after, weeks even, there were various editorials by other people criticizing that guy’s commentary.
That was back when I was still fairly complementarian myself (and believed in the bogus anti feminism arguments I heard from Christians and other conservatives) and even I found his “anti day care” arguments incredibly out of line and sexist.
LikeLike
Wow Tim Bayly! I have been wondering what the word “coward” means from a theological as well as a worldly perspective. And thanks to you, the scales have dropped from my eyes and the truth has been revealed;
coward; def. – the shooting off of the mouth by an entitled elitist pastor man who doesn’t have a clue to as the lifestyle of a woman who makes lifestyle choices that are not in accordance with his Pharisaical legalism.
Dear Tim,
I’m not too worried about the Senator doing the nursing verses non-nursing thing with her precious child as that is her decision. Of more concern to me, is the fact that I sat under a conservative AOG trained pastor man who was grooming/seducing women within our congregation to satisfy his ego/sexual needs all the while giving an Academy Award winning jezebel sermon performance to cover up the ills of his own depraved mind/body/soul.
……….and the leadership of that conservative Baptist church STILL wanted to keep that pastor on the payroll because he knew a jesus BETTER that the rest of us from a tongue speaking, lying signs and wonders perspective. And we, like fools, payed him big bucks in “salaries, housing allowances, medical insurance, credit card perks, and personal spending expenses.”
If it is possible with you, Tim, may I suggest you get a job and pay for your own lifestyle instead of stealing the hay from the lower laity sheep. You know, taking the Name of the LORD, our God, in vain, for personal glory, fame, and influence.
In closing, Tim, I would like to ask you a question; “Does the general concept of having women in Congress irritate you? If so, no matter what a woman Senator or Representative does within the context of our culture, will be canker sore on your heart and in your mouth.
Praying for your soul Tim.
In Christ’s Love,
Katy
LikeLike
In two words: SHE UPPITY.
LikeLike
This doesn’t even make sense. She wants the baby with her, that’s the whole point of this! I didn’t see where it said she would or wouldn’t be nursing, seems like this would make it easier to do so, although some women pump. Tim Bayley is such a nutjob.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Kathi, the World Health Organisation recommends breastfeeding for the first two years of a child’s life.
I’m pretty sure the WHO isn’t a religious organisation setting out to ruin the lives of working women.
This ‘pastor’ had no place to shame this woman for her lifestyle choice. It’s none of his business.
However, the statistics on breastfeeding in first world countries is alarming, when you consider the WHO recommendations.
The reality is that women cannot work and breastfeed at the same time. Women are faced with a decision to make and they can choose work or breastfeeding. Those who try to juggle both struggle and I’m led to think many quit expressing milk after several months (based on the stats).
Women choose to work for many reasons. I understand many cannot afford not to work, or don’t have a choice.
But many do have a choice and choose not to.
My question is: should we encourage women who have the choice, to choose the health needs of their baby over their career and lifestyle aspirations?
Is it ‘shaming’ to answer “yes” to the above question?
LikeLike
Lots of people ‘struggle’. Some people have difficulty nursing in general, some don’t have much milk. I know several people who pumped while working and managed just fine. What makes you think you know best to make choices for them?
Most women in the US don’t breastfeed for two years, working or no. I think there are other reasons for that.
LikeLike
Salty, “My question is: should we encourage women who have the choice, to choose the health needs of their baby over their career and lifestyle aspirations?”
Let me ask you who “we” is. There are many reasons why mothers choose not to breastfeed. We (as a society) can alleviate those issues various ways. For example, one obstacle was a private place for the mother to pump at the workplace. Other countries have given mothers more and more leave so that they can bond and hopefully breastfeed.
But, we cannot necessarily alleviate the larger problem, and that is that many mothers don’t have the economic means to choose between career and child. They live paycheck to paycheck and taking more than the federally-mandated leave would mean choosing between the child and living on the streets.
I think there are many complex reasons for this, such as our cultural norms and federal safety net programs which encourage moving cross-country to find a job and discourage multi-generational homes, where a mother could take a year or two off to bond, or where childcare wasn’t a $30k a year proposition.
LikeLike
I read Tim Bayly and his brother for years. (Why – for the same reason I read people from the opposite end of the religio-politico spectrum – they told me stuff I would not otherwise know – stuff not found in the more mainstream outlets). Tim Bayly DOES HAVE problems with working women, women in charge of men, women in the military, Democrats, etc.
One of his latest is on Barbara Bush:
https://warhornmedia.com/2018/04/23/barbara-bush-the-canaanite/
This post would back him up:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/hedgerow/2018/04/remembering-the-kind-barbara-bushs-love-for-planned-parenthood-video/
I might like to comment on these links. But for the moment (at least), I will let them speak for themselves.
.
LikeLike
@Salty
Hi Salty, I was born with severe medical complications and had to be stuck in practically a bubble while I recovered from surgery. My Mom had to be pumped so she could breastfeed me. Except, she, too, had complications doing that, and kept producing milk mixed with blood. Needless to say, her breastfeeding of me lasted a whole 2 weeks. I ended up with formula the rest of the way.
And now, I’ve grown up to be a successful software engineer who practically launches rockets into space for a living. Apparently, having formula didn’t harm my brain. The WHO can take their statistics and shove it.
I’m not saying that breastfeeding isn’t preferable, but many people have difficult circumstances. Sometimes, mothers have to work outside. That’s just life in the post-Industrial Revolution era, especially since what wives/mothers used to produce in the home has been removed from the home into factories. This is just real life. Welcome to the real world.
Meanwhile, this Senator (and I’m not even a Democrat and I’m going to say this) is doing the right thing for her baby. She made arrangements to nurse her baby while working. Good for her. I’m sure after year one, she can start pumping into refrigerated bottles. I know a podiatrist who did that, and her baby was at work while she hired a babysitter to take care of the baby while she was with patients. I was one of her babysitters, incidentally. And she took every break she could to be with her baby. She was and still is a good mother, a Christian, who is there for her children.
Nobody here is putting their career first. My coworkers who get maternity leave take it. They do what they have to do to pay the bills. The mothers oftentimes try to cut back to part time, even if it’s to 35 hours a week, so they can get home earlier to the kids. Where I live, it takes dual incomes to make it when you have children, even if you’re a software engineer. (Apparently, plumbers get paid more. Totally not fair!) I can’t think of one who is putting career first. In fact, I’ve heard from one mother that she just likes her job here at our employer because she can just do her same job everyday without thinking too hard (because she knows the area well) so she can go home and put her energy into her kids. She also tries to telecommute as much as possible. There are all sorts of arrangements employees make, from flex hours to telecommuting. Most of the mothers don’t have huge career aspirations to become CEO one day or anything like that. They’re just doing what their good at to earn money so they can feed the kids, pay rent/mortgage, etc. Their husbands also do things to make arrangements. It’s not about having a career. It’s about having a job that will feed the family. That’s just real life for most of us. I’m getting real tired of the myth that women who work have these career aspirations. We just want to eat like everybody else. I’m single, and even I’m not interested in climbing the ladder. I’ve climbed as much as I care to. I want to have a life, not for my job to be my entire life.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“The WHO can take their statistics and shove it.”
Again, there’s a lot of spin on both sides here. There is plenty of statistical evidence that breastfeeding is best under most circumstances. There is also a lot of statistical evidence that formula-fed babies aren’t doomed for life.
I think the tendency is to take the statistics and turn them into morality. Yes, breastfeeding is proven better, but not all mothers can breastfeed, and not all babies can breastfeed. Just a few examples, life-threatening allergies, mothers on medications that pass through to the milk, mastectomies.
The WHO is trying to counter an extensive marketing campaign by the formula companies that formula is somehow better, more convenient, whatever. Many (most?) hospitals accept the free baby care bags from the formula companies that have a few essentials, including sample bottles of formula. It’s been proven that humans are creatures of habit, and the “best” way to market to humans is to find them at those life inflection points where they are deciding on new habits.
On the other side, the breastfeeding advocates seem to browbeat and judge mothers who formula-feed their babies.
I think the best programs are when the hospitals have free lactation consulting – they try very hard to introduce the mothers to breastfeeding and resolve issues so that the mothers are comfortable with it by the time they leave. At that point, they can make a much more informed choice without all the moral pressure.
One of our children could have died due to the moralistic pro-breastfeeding advice we got. We were struggling with it and the baby lost weight the first two weeks. Our church friends were saying, don’t feed formula because once you do that, the battle is over. However, the doctor (thank God!!!) told us we needed to supplement the milk with formula. We were able to get the weight back on track and worked through the nursing issues over six weeks. It took about that for each of the children – six weeks of agony followed by a lot of convenience, but it was not an easy decision.
LikeLike
Salty said,
My question is: should we encourage women who have the choice, to choose the health needs of their baby over their career and lifestyle aspirations?
Is it ‘shaming’ to answer “yes” to the above question?
Doctors can present women with the information, and allow each woman to decide. If a woman decides not to, that’s her business, and no, she should not be shamed for it.
BTW, I don’t think I was breastfed as a kid, neither were my siblings. I don’t see what the big deal is in allowing a kid to be bottle fed.
LikeLike
Clockwork, thanks for sharing. I have lots of female friends who didn’t breastfeed (for various reasons) and I don’t judge them for their decisions.
I’m thankful I had a supportive partner so I could be free to do whatever I wanted when I had my babies.
Mark, I don’t think it’s society’s job to police breastfeeding and I personally encourage mothers to be to ‘stick it out’ when I now they’re planning to stay at home for a while with the baby.
It’s not easy to breastfeed but it’s free, good for mother and great for baby. But as you say, plenty of babies were breastfed and turned out just fine.
The comment from this ‘pastor’ really just appears to be judgmental, unkind and nasty. I don’t know why people who like to call themselves ‘Pastor’ think they’re glorifying Christ by singling out random women on social media. It just reinforces how judgmental Christians can be.
Maybe he does have an issue with working women.
What prompted his little outburst??
LikeLike
*bottle fed.
LikeLike
These horribly regressive, sexist views of women holding jobs, or being mothers AND holding an outside job, just will not die – conservative Christians will not let it go.
This was from a year ago:
_Does the Bible Say It’s OK for Moms to Work?_ – from The Christian Post site.
Yes, in the year 2017, we still actually have Christian lay persons wondering or asking this stupid question because sexists such as complementarians John Piper and Doug Wilson (and others) shame and pressure women into thinking that any other job or role other than “wife and mother” is wrong or sinful.
So they tell women they should not work outside the home as police officers or as anything else (especially if they are mothers).
So you get these confused Christians who write or phone in to these Christian pastors asking these sorts of questions.
And amazingly, the pastors feel the need to go into detail when they should simply say,
“Get with the times. It’s 2017. We should be beyond this point of assuming a woman’s only role or purpose in life is to marry and stay at home raising kids, or to refrain from having jobs or hobbies outside the home if she has kids. If a woman doesn’t want to be a purely SAHM, that’s up to her. I won’t even answer this question, it’s so ridiculous.”
A rejoinder:
_‘Not only are you calling women selfish, you’re calling men incapable’: Father slams columnist who said motherhood is ‘under threat’ because women are prioritising their careers_ – from Daily Mail’s site
LikeLike
By the way,this Tim Bayly is the same guy who doesn’t think that complementarianism goes ‘far enough.’
Bayly agrees with Russell Moore that Christians should fully endorse full-blown patriarchy, because patriarchy is more severe and stringent than complementarianism is.
See this post on his blog for more about all that:
_Russel Moore: “I hate the term ‘complementarian’…”_ – from Bayly blog
-That is the kind of guy who is under discussion:
Bayly is very, very sexist. And he thinks his sexism is completely endorsed by the God of the Bible, which makes him – like those ISIS Islam guys – very scary.
It’s bad enough when people are sexist (or racist, or what have you), but when they think their narrow, unloving, horrid views are completely backed by God, they became way more dangerous, resistant to change, etc.
LikeLike
l. Lee said,
Re: APRIL 26, 2018 @ 8:33 AM,
Thank you for the information.
I’m not as well versed as you are with Bayly. I’ve only skimmed his blog a time or two in the past and was so nauseated with his very sexist views, I have a hard time going back and reading his stuff (ditto on guys like Doug Wilson).
Though I do, like you, sometimes visit sites of people who hold totally opposite views of mine – but some I find so odious, I can only take them in very small doses a few moments at a time.
Anyway. I am very leery and creeped out by guys such as Bayly.
They are way too extreme.
Anyone who is not on the same exact page as they are on every doctrine or political topic, in their way of thinking, is not conservative enough (or not liberal enough, if it’s a liberal), or is not properly “biblical” enough.
About 16 or so years ago, I remember in the course of doing web searches for apologetic topics, I kept running across the same web site, run by two brothers (or they were two close friends).
One of the purposes of their site was to warn Christians about other Christians, especially famous ones.
The problem with their mindset is that EVERYONE (in their view) as a heretic or a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They had listed every single famous Christian writer or preacher I’ve ever heard of, even the mainstream ones most Christians would consider safe, biblical, etc.
I notice they only excluded themselves from the List ‘o’ Heretics as well as theeir own grandmothers, but I would not be surprised had they eventually put their own grannies on the list of the condemned.
Nobody was conservative or biblical enough for those Christian apologetic site guys, NOBODY. In their view, everyone was wrong about the Bible and God and about morality, except for them. It’s so very creepy and such a wrong way to look at people, religion, and politics.
So, Bayly thinks that Barbara Bush was unacceptable and not conservative enough – though she was plenty conservative by many people’s standards. That speaks volumes to me. The guy is way too dogmatic, judgemental, and unreasonable.
If you think B. Bush is evil incarnate, what do you do with a woman (or man) who is way beyond B. Bush, like an Adolph Hitler, who really was truly evil and extreme?
If you mark everyone as being AS BAD as Hitler, then nobody is really Hitler.
LikeLike
Clockwork Angel said,
Even when a woman follows the Tim Bayly or Salty, or whomever Conservative Christian, approach to parenting, it doesn’t always go smoothly.
My Christian parents had the traditional values, traditional gender roles, “June and Ward Cleaver” marriage, where my dad worked 9 to 5 outside the home, and my mother stayed at home and raised the kids.
God bless my mother, I miss her, still love her, and I know she did the best she could. However. Upon reflection, maybe I would’ve benefited more from a mother who did have the gumption and self esteem to work outside the home.
I’ll try to keep this long story short, but my mother (as I’ve mentioned before) was a very, very, very codependent person.
My mother was a super submissive, passive doormat. She lived that way in part due to her her abusive up-bringing, but also because she was raised in the anti-feminist, pro- S.A.H.M. (Stay at Home Wife and Mother) 1950s secular era, and her Baptist churches indoctrinated her (along with other women) to overly extol SAHM-ism.
So, my mother in turn instilled those views, attitudes, and behaviors into me, which did me lots and lots of damage through my child hood into my adult years, which I cannot emphasize enough.
I don’t want to fully explain why and how her method of parenting damaged me, because this post would turn into a 65 page long essay (and I’ve discussed it before on this blog in years past), but.
Having a S.A.H.M. as I did is not a guarantee the the kids she raised will be well equipped to handle life as an independent, self confident adult later in life.
My brother and sister also struggled later in life, due to Mom’s parenting (and that of my father’s).
LikeLike
Clockwork Angel said,
Yes, that gets tiresome.
I’d also like to add to this train of thought: How tired I am of the many secular conservatives and Christian conservatives who always assume if a woman is single past age 29, it’s because she deliberately chose to do so, and because she either hates all men, or is “career focused” or “career obsessed.”
I had always wanted to be married and believed I would be. However, I’m still single into my mid/late 40s, and it’s sure not intentional on my part. I have held some jobs here and there, including full time 9 to 5 jobs, but I was not doing so at the expense of marriage.
I remember at one full time job I had, the commute was 45 minutes to and from, Monday – Friday, which left me precious little time for hitting bars, night clubs and meeting single men to date and marry.
(By my mid-30s I had started giving up on churches as venues in which to meet single men, because most churches do not have single men of the ages 25 to around 65.)
But your average talking head conservative, such as Al Mohler, keep blaming single women for being single. They assume that women are intentionally avoiding marriage, which is not the case for many single women (especially Christian ones). Many of us had wanted to marry, but there are NO MEN for us to marry.
But conservative Christians keep on blaming women, saying we are “too wrapped up” in our jobs or careers.
BTW, if you are a single woman living on your own, you kind of do not HAVE A CHOICE in the matter: you have to hold down a 9 to 5 to pay bills, and working a 9 to 5 leaves you with little time or energy to go out and meet men and date.
Do secular and religious conservatives factor that in as to why so many single women remain single? Nope. They just like to blame women for being single, making all sorts of false assumptions about us.
LikeLike
I just saw this on social media. I’m guessing this will make Bayly go apopoleptic or write a very incensed blog post about how wrong it is these women have jobs, or take their kids to their jobs.
_Sarah Sanders Brings Her Kids To Work For National Take Your Child To Work Day _ – on the Daily Caller site
_“Photos of the bad_ss moms who inspired their kids by bringing them to work today”_ – on the Quartz site.
Includes Trump’s spokesperson, S. Huckabee Sanders.
LikeLike
@Daisy
Yup. I suppose they want us all to be stay-at-home daughters. I never had the luxury. My father abandoned me and my disabled mother when I was 19. Even before he abandoned us I knew I had better take college seriously because I could feel the clock was ticking. And even if he had stayed, I would have been trying to get financial independence just to get my Mom outta there. (He was very abusive and unhinged.)
I remember feeling looked down upon by the men in church when they would ask what I was studying in college. I could feel them shrink away when I said, “computer science”. There was no arrogance in my tone. I was just being factual, conversational. Only the women studying part time at school to be Kindergarten teachers got attention from the men. The rest of the time they spent working a part time job, typically daycare, and being stay-at-home daughters. That was what the men wanted. I never stood a chance.
What did these guys expect me to do, especially once my father left? Starve? I was holding up to three part-time jobs the first year (because the heck if you could find a full time job in a recession that was flexible for school), going to school full time with student loans maxed out so my and my mother could make it. I scored a good-paying internship the next year, and I’ve been with that company ever since. Maybe the young men were just too intimidated to see me actually make it, in spite of the circumstances. I never saw them want to meaningfully help me or my Mom in anyway. They despised me in my poverty, and yet wouldn’t help me. Well, I earn 6-digits now, boys! I don’t need you anymore! And that’s what bothers them. They want to be needed, to be the “man”. But if you actually do need help, their charity is pitiful and you might be a gold-digger. You can’t win with these types. Unless you come from a perfect little Christianese family to where you can be a stay-at-home daughter, they don’t want you. And even if you match their eligibility lists, they enjoy a skewed women-to-men ratio in church, so they can pick the cream of the crop. I never could make the cut when half the women were anorexic. (Yeah, one of my childhood friends was literally anorexic and being told by her family physician to eat something. She attracted the boys the most. I never stood a chance at a normal, healthy weight.)
You are also not allowed to be intelligent as a woman if you want a man to marry you. Hence I could palpably feel the men’s intimidation when I factually stated my major. The want a woman easy to control, whom they can feel macho over and feel like they know best and are in charge. The moment you have a brain, it’s over.
This was all Calvary Chapel, by the way. This is reason #3 out of about 500 why I never want to go back.
Oh and by the way, in case it wasn’t obvious from the above, it’s amazing how when you find yourself facing homelessness that suddenly the complementarians at church want you, a woman, to go outside the home and work and earn your way. Nobody was going to support me. They expected me to scratch and claw my way out of poverty. They are two-faced in every way.
Fine with me. I dodged a bullet by not having the opportunity to marry any of those guys. I am so, so, glad God never answered my prayers in my 20s to give me a husband. I couldn’t imagine what sort of life I’d be having right now. I am grateful that I live in this country, in this century, so that I can work and make it. In any other era or in some countries still today, I’d be homeless, and so would my Mom. I’d have to prostitute myself to eat. That is the reality of patriarchy, and is what happens to the women who fall through the cracks and have no man to support them.
And, suffice it to say, my Mom is very proud of me. (I still take care of her to this day.) She’s proud that I’m a responsible adult, reliable, and have more character than any of those guys who couldn’t see what a gem I was–loyal to the point of risking homelessness to try to make it with my Mom and not leaving her side.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Haha Daisy.
Lumping me in the same bucket as ‘Conservative Christians’.
Nice one.
“Gumption and self esteem”.
I worked from the age of 16-28, which is when I fell pregnant with my first child. I’ve been a stay at home mother for close to ten years (my choice) and it’s not due to a lack of gumption and self esteem”.
I actually enjoy being at home with my children and being a “homemaker”.
There’s nothing wrong about choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother and rejecting university and a career (or even a paid job).
What makes me a ‘conservative Christian’ Daisy?
The fact I’m a SAHM? Because I breastfed my kids up until age 2 or because I believe the testimony of the Scriptures about Christ?
I don’t believe it’s a sin for women to work.
But if a woman deliberately chooses to not nurse their baby because they’d prefer to chase a career… I’m not going to praise that and pretend it’s a virtuous act.
I think there are a lot of women who are jealous of SAHM who are actually happy with their lot.
LikeLike
@ClockworkAngel:
How long did it take?
It took me 35 years in my profession (and some fortunate investments) before my 1040 showed six figures gross income.
And I was repelled by all the Holy Nincompoops and Jacqueline Chicks when I attempted to date “equally yoked”. Like there’s something about Being Saved that makes you not only stupid, but limited only to CHRISTIAN(TM) thoughts and subjects.
My only cautiousness as to your major would be the Computer Geek version of the above, where your entire being was limited to Computers Computers Computers Computers Computers. To me, IT is a job skill, not That in Which I Live and Move and Have my Being (as it is to so many in the industry). I’m also 62, have other things in my life, and no longer have the physical stamina for the Silicon Valley Guy pace.
As for “the moment you have a brain, it’s over”, when I got involved in MLP:FIM fandom, one of my favorite characters I’d like to have met IRL was Twilight Sparkle, the hyperintelligent nerd type. (That purple unicorn and I even crack up in the exact same way — worst-case scenarios running out-of-control in your imagination until everything just thrashes to a halt.)
I’m not surprised. I live near the Ground Zero of Calvary Chapel, they absolutely dominated Christianese AM radio around here, and I have always had this “ripple in the Force” about something WRONG about them. Nothing I could put my finger on and say “AHA!” (or withstand a CC return barrage of Bible Bullets), but this vague observation that CC seems to distill down and concentrate all the ways Christians can go wrong.
LikeLike
@Daisy:
“Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s Right with God.”
— Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
Yes there is, Captain.
A monster who KNOWS he’s Right with God.
LikeLike
Salty, first of all, did we even get confirmation that that is what Tammy Duckworth is doing? Because I think Bayley made that up. She seems to want to bring her child on the floor in case she needs to nurse, from the article I read. As for other women, you flat out don’t know why they made decisions they do, and what is best for their child or their family. Just as you would like others not to judge you, maybe don’t judge them? Sheesh.
LikeLike
Don’t worry, HUG! I have healthy hobbies. Perhaps too many, as I have to rotate them to have time for them all. For example, I play guitar (yes, rock guitar, Rush being my favorite band). I like some graphic novels. There’s been a lot of good ones from the indie self-publishers lately. Gaming. Reading fantasy/sci-fi. Writing fiction. Cooking gourmet. (Older women would tell me that the way to a man’s heart was his stomach. LIES LIES LIES ALL LIES!) I used to do Lindy Hop dancing in my 20s before I hurt my knees. Does driving my Mustang to work count as a hobby? I think it should.
I could go on. You would think at least some of the above would have made a man want something to do with me by now. Yes, I do program a bit in my spare time, but that’s because in aerospace you end up with with 500 pages of paperwork to file per one line of code. And, I believe in using my nerdy programming superpowers for good, so I contribute to open source.
It took me about 13 years, including a few years as an intern, to reach a 6-digit figure. I probably would have hit that figure sooner had I gotten in with one of the big five on graduation (Google, Amazon, etc.), but they never quite appealed to me, and neither did the commute. A 6-digit figure doesn’t mean as much as it used to, of course. As you know, when you live near a software Mecca (or any Mecca where there’s jobs), the price of housing is crazy. Hence, it takes my coworkers dual incomes to own a house, or else a lot of parental help to get into one.
I, too, live in ground zero for Calvary Chapel. I believe Muff does too. Heh. We should all have a meetup or something. That would be fun! (Although, I will caution you that I was more into Carebears and Teddy Ruxspin than My Little Pony while growing up, but I appreciate your love of furries.)
LikeLike
Salty – I went back to work full-time after having my first child. She was breastfed the entire time because I was able to pump. Back then I had to pay to rent my pump. Now, most health insurance plans cover this. It is possible to breastfeed your baby while you’re back to work full-time.
And, while I think breast milk is best for a child’s development, not all women can breast feed. I had complications with both kids and it was a miracle I made it 6 months. Babies world wide are able to survive off of formula. As long as baby is thriving, there should be no shaming.
LikeLike
ClockworthAngel, don’t be a gold digger and don’t need charity. You’re right, some people definitely have double standards.
I really wish more patriarchal types would actual study history because this is exactly what happened. Women were forced to turn to sex work in many cases. I was reading something about this in the Victorian era and it said men would let their wives have side jobs in sex work simply to help feed the multitude of children!
LikeLike
Ha! I don’t think it bothers them but I agree with you.
Of course, my bf seems to like cooking so much I hardly ever do lately.
LikeLike
Why would he shame her? Hmmm… Perhaps because she is a woman and has already proven that she is a better man than he will ever be.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ll never forget the comment made to me by the assistant pastor’s wife years ago when I had to get a part time job which included working every other weekend. My kids were young, 6 and 4, and I was already struggling with guilt. She said to me “Well I guess the extra money comes in handy! ” No you entitled pretentious snob! This is not extra money! This is money to help pay bills and feed our children. Unlike you, I don’t have a church full of people ready to fall all over themselves to help you when you have a problem. Can you tell I’m still a little bitter about that?
LikeLike
Question to Tim Bayly: What war injuries do you have?
LikeLike
Bayly says such hateful things about Duckworth because she’s a female and democrat. How does he know that she doesn’t nurse her baby? Perhaps she expresses milk for her baby. Does he know? Unless Bayly becomes a double amputee and gives birth he has no right to judge Duckworth. I admire and applaud her.
LikeLike
LikeLike
Maybe we should pity Tim that he can not take the heat for such a foolish comment about Tammy Duckworth.
LikeLike
I’ve known for years that the whole Bayly clan is pretty much full-blown whackadoodle. This is just more confirmation.
The first time I ever heard of the Baylys, they reminded me of this little clip:
LikeLike
@SKIJ:
I’m not the only one who likes that clip!
I post it up on other blogs all the time!
Whenever the situation calls for it!
LikeLike
Ah, the Baylys: the “christian” sector of the manosphere.
LikeLike
Cindy – And, she had a baby at age 50! I admire and applaud her for that too. I’ll be 50 next year. As much as I love babies, I can leave that up to the younger folks.
LikeLike
Re: Salty Re: APRIL 26, 2018 @ 12:35 PM
Oh my good dawg. You read way too much into my post and have a chip on your shoulder.
Your sexist views is what makes you have you pegged as a conservative Christian.
I am not “anti SAHM,” as you seem to think I am.
I however have detected an anti- career woman, or anti any woman who does not conform to SAHMish in her own life from you.
As to this: ““Gumption and self esteem”.
My mother was a SAHM, and she did lack gumption and self esteem, due in part to…
Being codependent, believing in traditional gender roles,
having been raised in Baptist churches (which teach sexist views about women),
Lacking self esteem
And that negatively impacted me. I love my mother, but I would have been better off, I think, had I been brought up with a woman who had the self esteem and confidence and positive views of women to work outside the home and encourage her daughter (me) to be anything I wanted.
Salty said,
And where did I say there was anything wrong about being a SAHM?
I did not. Go pound sand, Salty.
You said,
“But if a woman deliberately chooses to not nurse their baby because they’d prefer to chase a career… I’m not going to praise that and pretend it’s a virtuous act.”
And that is exactly what I’d expect a conservative Christian to say, because it sounds like what they would say.
You are a judgemental (fill in the blank with a pejorative term here). Who are you to put down women who don’t view life, career, or motherhood in the way that you do? Go pound sand part 2, Salty.
LikeLike
I’m surprised Lori Alexander doesn’t have a post bashing Senator Duckworth. This would seem up her alley to condemn as well.
LikeLike
Salty said,
I don’t think my mother, who was a SAHM, was one of them.
When I was in college, I’d come home from my college courses or talk about an upcoming difficult test I was not looking forward to, and my Mom told me often, ruefully and wistfully, with a sad look on her face,
“I wish I could’ve gone to college.”
There’s a reason Betty Friedan wrote “The Feminine Mystique,” and all women being completely content and satisfied with being a SAHM, or supposedly being jealous of SAHMs, was not one of them.
_Wikiepedia: The Feminine Mystique_
Kudos to you, Salty, if you dig being a SAHM, but not all women want to be one, or not all SAHMs are happy being a SAHM if they are one.
There was a Child-free forum I haven’t been to in ages, but when I visited, members of that Child Free Forum often linked to one or two “Mommy Regrets” forums and blogs, sites filled with anonymous posts by women who say things such as,
“I have one infant and a toddler, and I hate them. I regret being a mother.”
_Mothers who regret having children are speaking up like never before_ – from Maccleans
On the Scary Mommy blog (I won’t link to it here; one can Google for this):
9 Reasons I Regret Being a Stay at Home Mom
by Mary Dell Harrington and Lisa Heffernan
LikeLike
(part 1)
Headless Unicorn Guy said,
This is definitely an annoying or creepy problem or a “thing” among a lot of Christians, which I’ve discussed with you before, here and at the other site.
Not only does it exist in online dating, but just in every-day life or what not.
I have run into Christians who are weird about their faith.
They eat, breath, and sleep Christianity, and they insist on making -EVERY. SINGLE. CONVERSATION.- go back to Jesus.
(See also its close cousin: _The Jesus Juke_)
The constant focus by some Christians on Jesus, to the exclusion of all other subjects, freaks me out, it drives me nuts, and I wish they wouldn’t do it. It’s creepy.
(continued in part 2)
LikeLike
(part 2 reply to HUG)
The last few months, I have been visiting with this woman who I once met at my father’s church – I usually visit her at her home every so often. These are supposed to be social visits.
In some ways, she’s a very nice lady, don’t get me wrong, but, however –
When there is a lull in our conversations, she almost always tries to make the conversations go back to theology and to Jesus.
Even though I used to go to this Nice Lady’s church, and though I shared my “salvation testimony” with her previously, years ago – I’ve flat out told her I accepted Christ as my Savior before turning ten years old – based on questions she asks me now, when there’s a lull in our chats, she seems to suspect I was never “truly” saved.
It would be nice to just have a friend to chat with or lean on in general terms, but any time the conversation winds down, and I don’t have much to chat about, she makes things very weird and uncomfortable for me by blurting out questions at me, such as, “Who is Jesus to you?”
I mean, really? Does every conversation have to veer off from movies, the weather, gardening or whatever, to Jesus of Nazareth, and the state of my soul and the state of my salvation, almost every single time?
And what is up with asking me ‘who Jesus is to me’? As if to suggest I was a false convert at one time, and I never “really” and “truly” believed in Christ as my Savior? It felt a bit condescending to me at the time.
My mother may have had some problems – and she was a devout Christian – but let me tell you one thing I admire about her: She held to her faith but was not a weirdo about it!!
You could have normal conversations with my mother about stuff (TV, movies, music, current events, whatever), and she would not pivot every conversation into a Bible lesson. She acted normal.
LikeLike
(part 3 and final reply to HUG about Christians who act weird about their faith)
But I do sometimes keep running across Christians who are overly pre-occupied with their faith, with Jesus.
Years ago, I watched pastor Kyle Idleman on a TV show on a Christian network. He says some woman whose son went to his church (IIRC) called him to say her son recently accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior, but he was going ‘over-board’ with it.
The woman said her son would not shut up about Jesus, and it was un-nerving to her, and I guess driving her up the wall. She asked Rev. Idleman if he could speak to her son and ask him to take a “Theological Chill Pill” and stop yakking about Jesus round the clock.
Well, Idleman smiled into the camera and actually praised this woman’s son for being “so on fire” for Jesus.
Idleman was saying, to us, the audience, watching this on TV, that the mother was wrong. I sat there dumb-founded by his view on this. I was more sympathetic to the mother in this anecdote than I was with the son.
I cannot believe that Idleman was defending the son in this matter, or encouraging other Christians watching the show, to behave in a manner that Non- Christians will find a huge turn off. I’m partially Christian myself, and I find it a turn off in other Christians.
I know if someone is a recent convert, yes, they will be enthusiastic about Jesus and want to talk about him constantly, I get it.
But I don’t think many people feel comfortable being around someone who talks ONLY about Jesus or the Bible. I know being around folks like that is a turn off for me, and it weirds me out. I cannot imagine it’s a good selling point with the non-converted out there.
Those types are also on dating sites, but they are in other places, too.
LikeLike
@Clockwork Angel per April 26, 2018 @12:18 PM
Alleluia and Amen! What a wonderful testimony of the grace, protection and strength of Jesus Christ in your life. Your story has inspired and encouraged me in my faith in Christ alone for salvation, this very day, and I want to Thank-You for sharing your life experiences. It brought tears to me eyes, and love in my heart, fully knowing that you are being part of our LORD’S Ekklesia on a daily basis, in caring for your mother and living out your faith day by day. You are the real deal!
Blessings to you and yours!
LikeLike
Many here may recall how Tim Bayly took it upon himself to rebuke Rachel Miller and Valerie Hobbs for having the temerity to tender a reasoned, scripture-based response to John Piper and Doug Wilson’s teaching about female subordination.
Male domination and female subordination is close to his heart. As part of this, he has made an idol of the nuclear family.
One of the more preposterous things I heard from his own mouth was the statement that more Christians have resulted from the faithful upbringing of children by Christian parents than from evangelism.
I have it written down in a notebook somewhere, word for word, because I listen best with a pen in hand, and I made sure I got the sentence exactly as Bayly said it because I couldn’t believe my ears and I wanted to ask my pastor about it. (He, by the way, explained it away by telling me that I hadn’t heard what I’d heard and written down.)
So yes, Bayly supports patriarchy. It also appears that he would rather allow a man to preach rank heresy (in the absence of another man stirring himself to confront false teaching) than that a woman should correct the false teacher.
But then, he doesn’t see Piper’s and Wilson’s view of women as heresy, so he certainly wouldn’t have stirred himself to correct them.
LikeLike
refuge said, “He, by the way, explained it away by telling me that I hadn’t heard what I’d heard and written down.”
You didn’t hear? Really?! Being told “you don’t understand” drives me crazy! I hear that a lot when I respond to Piper posts. If these folks don’t want their words to be “misunderstood” they need to speak and write clearer.
LikeLike
Yeah, I should have seen the writing on the wall at that point… We did end up leaving that church, but it took us too long to do so.
LikeLike
Every time I think the “mommy wars” have subsided, someone like T Bayley comes out with a comment and I groan all over again. I’m the fourth or fifth generation of working women on the mother’s side of my family, married or single. Some worked on the farm and tended to the kids (my great-grandmother was the farm administrator). My widowed grandmother cooked on a ranch and took in laundry to support six kids during the depression. My aunts all had careers and kids (many of the careers were home businesses that they helped run). My mom was the first female manager for a prominent company in our area, and my sister (the mom) and I (the single) both have our respective careers. My sister did work a 4-midnight shift when her kids were under school age so that she could spend time with them during the day. I see working women in Scripture, too-Abigail, Lydia, Priscilla…I don’t hear ultra-conservative Christians criticizing women who work in the Trump administration, or full-time politicians like Sarah Palin (whose family seems to be a train wreck).
I do wish that some people would just mind their own business. If the kids are fed and thriving and the family seems happy, just leave them alone. They’ll be fine. I don’t think God is as picky about some things as we seem to be, except loving one another and accepting each other in the Lord.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Kathi
“You didn’t hear? Really?! Being told “you don’t understand” drives me crazy!”
It’s gaslighting. It’s intended to make you feel crazy.
If anyone is ever told what was said to refugee, run!! Do not look back. You are being played.
LikeLike
I don’t know who hates women more this insecure sicko or insecure sicko Doug Wilson. They both trash talk women like two vile Islamist. I would rather be aborted than have him or any man like him as a father.
LikeLike
If you communicate for a living, I don’t want to hear complaints that I ‘don’t understand’. Either they mean what they say or they need to pick a new profession.
LikeLike
Rightly understood Lea. Jesus didn’t mince “words” when He spoke to the religious folks of His day. He was and is still GOD. Seems like His word “viper” is becoming more and more the norm in describing most of the modern day clergy men, and some women who are also blind to the context of our Holy Scriptures. I honestly didn’t know that breast feeding was a necessary law in entering the eternal destination of living in the presence of our LORD and Savior. That must rank right up there with not eating pork, dressing in clothing with unblended fibers, tithing, and keeping the Sabbath…….and now breast feeding babies. Wow, Christianity(?) has come a long way, has it not?
And being a former Piper listener/idolater, I can honestly say that Piper isn’t being “misunderstood” by anyone. He is just plain ridiculous and foolish in his thinking and speaking skills, and honestly is in need of much prayer and counseling. Crowing roosters (ie,, Pipers, MacArthurs, R.C. Sprouls, Erwin Lutzer, etc., or any other self anointed “complementarian”), no longer minister to me with their aberrant behavior (in the case of Piper) or absurd religious teachings that are not in accordance with Jesus Christ’s teachings.
And Christianity Hurts, I am so, so, so incredibly sorry in reading your life story. I cry tears and more tears every time you witness to us folks. In truth, I admire your strength, your perseverance, and your truthfulness, for you have more courage and the “fruits of the spirit” than most Baptists that I have sat under. Oy Vey!
Will never ever label myself as a “Baptist”……and thankfully, the Holy Scriptures don’t label Jesus, our LORD and Savior, as a “Baptist” either! PTL!
LikeLike
Salty said, “The reality is that women cannot work and breastfeed at the same time.”
This isn’t true. I breastfed while working full time at a demanding job, for almost two years. I was fortunate enough to actually have an over supply of milk, and since we didn’t have enough room in the freezer to store it all, I donated two coolers full of breast milk to a milk bank for babies with medical problems.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Let me get this straight this piece of work “ pastor” is running his mouth about breast feeding ? How much experience does he have with that ? Is there one of those male “breast “ feeding bras hanging in his closet ? Is he the proud owner of a Mr. Milky ?
I don’t understand how these pastors get the idea that they are experts on everything. Most of them skip seminary and aren’t really much of an expert on the Word of God , yet alone every aspect of family life.
There is no biblical mandate on breast feeding, so why is this even being addressed by a church leader ? I may not share the political views of this senator but preacher boy could be a gentleman and leave her alone to decide for herself the best option for her baby. Having lost both legs serving in the military during hostile conflict she may not be able to feed he child the way preacher boy thinks is best. What business is it of his to even bring this up ? Kind of weird if you ask me.
Reminds me of when I was in Christian school and this idiot chapel speaker preached a sermon against women using tampons as it makes virginity at marriage questionable. Then another mentioned that “far too many men are in the habit of peeing like women, I taught my boys that they will stand “. Apparently only women can sit down to urinate in his house and this is something he chooses to police. 😳Lots of really bizarre preacher guys hung up on weird stuff. For the life of me I don’t understand why they can’t just stick to the Bible.
LikeLiked by 1 person
facepalm
Is there any answer to such idiocy?
LikeLike
Wow scott1253! A voice of reason….point made! Would this man disguised as a pastor, be offended and critical over the Senator’s lifestyle choices if she were a Republican? Double standards are the norm with regards to politics and the visible church, they are virtually in bed together so to speak, regardless of party affiliations. Jesus was neither a Dem. or a Rep. and it is finally liberating to know that after all of the years of indoctrination into both party systems. Just don’t recall Jesus ever supporting any political party of His day……and He is still the same today as yesterday.
What a painful sermon series…….peeing? I’m a woman who works hard labor at various times in my life on our farm…..I call it “my job,” but complementarian folks would call it “submitting unto thy husband.” In reality, it’s called “getting the job done regardless of the body parts a human being has, in order to get the crops out before it snows in earning income to support our families. Love doesn’t pay the bills, work does. Hard work does. And there are times when my husband hears the words “no” and “that is not a wise decision, this is!” And he must adjust accordingly, for I too , need to stay healthy and focused in my job so an auger, for example, doesn’t eat me up while unloading me semi truck, due to exhaustion, both physical and emotional. Not spiritually, for I always rely on my LORD Jesus Christ for His strength in getting the job done….no worries there.
So please forgive me folks, here on this blog, if I struggle with the words “feminism,” “jezebel spirit….which is often heard coming from the lips of sexually unfaithful pastor men, both “conservative and liberal” “, “male headship,” or any other gender based theology within the visible church. I have often been labeled a “feminist” by churched men, as well as the churched women in within the realm of the hierarchal religious system, and it baffles me to no end, “do they know of that in which they speak?” My line of work knows no “feminism” nor “chivalry” nor “headship;” in reality, it’s called “cooperation/unity,” “sharing ideas/decision making processes” in which the best decision is made regardless of the gender thing to better our farm operation and relationship with one another, and it’s called having a “saving faith in Jesus Christ,” regardless of our body parts, for the True Body (Ecclesia/or the “called out ones’) of Jesus Christ is one, both male and female.
Tractors, trucks, pick-ups, skid loaders, the drying systems, our computer testing equipment…….shoot…..even my super great heavy duty awesome lawn mowing machine, do not give a rip which gender operates them, just as long as they are treated with respect, RESPECT; because at the end of the day, repairs are costly, very costly, and time delays are crucial because it’s not fun seeing our crops/our income sitting in the fields covered with snow all winter long.
It’s only when I attended my very “conservative, formerly abusive Baptist c’hurch,” that I was made to feel like a proverbial nothing…..like a lower laity amoeba on the bottom of the religious food chain. Funny, how c’hurch hierarchy, ie., the Tim Baylys, the Fred Butlers, the John Pipers, the CJ. Mahaneys, the John MacArthurs, etc., does such shame to Gospel of Jesus Christ with regards to His One True Body/congregation of which He is the Head/Cornerstone.
Apostasy is alive and well within the harlot religious system, is it not? Oy Vey!
LikeLiked by 1 person
And also, for the record, I have had many a farm wife call my home in need of a “good word and some good, old fashioned LOVE,” because their complementarian husband was yelling his holy head off at them, because “he could.” There is much room for ministry within the cults of complementarianism……and we are living proof of this!
I still believe the words of Jesus Christ per Matthew 28…..when He says that “all authority belongs to Me (JESUS.) And to date, He (JESUS) hasn’t lied to me yet! Knowing this gives me comfort, hope, and strength to live my life, day by day, for and with Him. Pretty simple life.
LikeLike
This is so sad.
LikeLike