Mark Driscoll, Tullian Tchividjian, Spiritual abuse, clergy sexual misconduct
***
Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are Baaaack
Today was a really difficult day with the shootings in Las Vegas. As of this writing, 59 people have died, and over 500 injured. What a horrible, senseless tragedy, with so many people harmed. As I was reeling from that news, I learned that Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are back: Tullian, with a new website here; and Mark Driscoll, with a new blog on Patheos, here.
As my head was spinning with the thought that many lost loved ones today, it dawned on me that there have also been casualties with the “ministries” of these two men, not physical deaths, but emotional and spiritual deaths. In both cases, I know of people who have abandoned their faith. And many are still suffering from the effects of spiritual abuse.
But here they are again, Mark Driscoll already started his new church, but he is now putting himself more in the spotlight with his new blog. And Tullian . . . starting a new website and blogging . . . so soon???? Unreal. I have no words.
Here is the Facebook post from his wife, Stacie, announcing his new gig:
***
And here’s Mark Driscoll:
We’ll have more to come on Tullian. Ugh!
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Mwcamp,
You asked why I used the metaphor of doctors. Here’s why:
No one gets offended that doctors use the title doctor. No one expects doctors to work all week long as restaurant waiters and then go into the hospital on the weekend in their free time to do complex surgery. That’s because we understand the need for physical healing.
Preaching the Gospel brings emotional and spiritual healing to the broken. The problem is that we can get so comfortable in our little groups and forget that the heart of God bleeds for the whole world. There’s a lot of emotionally and spiritually broken people who need healing as well. Yet saying that those doing the work of emotional and spiritual healing don’t deserve to use a title and can’t have a salary for their own work— that’s saying that emotional and spiritual needs don’t matter. That’s lightly esteeming the most important thing to the heart of God (spreading the Gospel).
When Jesus walked the Earth, He worked as a carpenter during the first thirty years of His life. Then He went on the road preaching the Gospel full time, healing the sick and ministering to the broken. That took money to do. Did Jesus have to work full time as a carpenter to pay the bills during His three years of ministry? Nope. We know that there were wealthy women traveling with Jesus, paying the bills so He could focus full time on ministering to those who need it the most. That puts Jesus in the category of professional minister. Does anyone object? Is anyone going to get offended at the idea that Jesus was a professional minister?
Reality is being denied here. We live in a world that costs money to do anything. We use money to buy food, fill up our gas tanks, help others, etc. We expect a salary for the work we do. Yet we want to stick our heads in the stand and pretend that it doesn’t take resources to spread the Gospel.
Who do you think is trying to destroy all the resources from spreading the Gospel? NOT God.
Jesus said to pray for more laborers to go to the Harvest. Why are we trying to hinder them? There’s an insanity in the argument that every single occupation can use a title and receive a reasonable salary for their work but Heaven forbid that those doing the will of the Father like Jesus did could actually have the resources they need to spread the Gospel. How can we get offended at the example that Jesus left us? How can it be wrong to teach tithing when Jesus Himself taught it?
LikeLike
Avid Reader
“Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?”
xxxxxxx
Please explain…
What do ”you” mean when you say, ”teaching tithing?”
How do “you” ”teach tithing?”
How does “The Bible,” ”teach tithing?”
Did any of His Disciples tithe?
According to “your teaching?”
Which ones?
Did any of His Disciples give MONEY? 10%? of wages? as a tithe?
To a church?
Thanks
LikeLike
Dear Amos, precious Amos,
You are so correct dear brother! As a farmer/agriculturalist myself, the tithe was primarily the fruits of agriculture as well as sharing the spoils of war – ie., conquering other peoples/nations. The tithe was never instituted from a man or woman’s wages and was never taught as a doctrine in earning one’s acceptance into the Kingdom of God.
Men have added their own doctrines as a way and a means of syphoning money/mammon for their own agendas……after all, don’t most churches need that “big screen and big band drums” nowadays to be “relevant?”
LikeLiked by 1 person
KAS
You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM
About “1 Peter 5 v 1 to 5.”
“And like it or not, the younger are to be subject to such men.”
xxxxxxx
NOPE…
I do NOT like ”IT” 🙂
Seems you did NOT read the whole verse in 1 Pet 5:5. 🙂
Or, left part of it out on purpose. Yes? — My… My… Tsk… Tsk…
Seems someone has sub-tracked,” from the scriptures. Oy Vey!!! 😦
Here is the whole verse…
1 Pet 5:5 NKJV
Likewise you younger people,
”submit” yourselves to your elders.
Yes, ALL of you be **”submissive” to one another,**
and be clothed with humility,
for“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Seems, ”submit,” and ”submissive,” are the same Greek word.
Seems, WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Kings and Priests…
His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church, His Friends…
Are to ”submit,” one to another…
Eph 5:21 KJV
”Submitting yourselves” one to another in the fear of God.
1 Pet 5:5 NKJV
Yes, ALL of you be **”submissive” to one another,**
xxxxxxx
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds
have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
LikeLike
KAS
Yes, ALL of you be ”submissive” to one another,
and be clothed with humility,
for God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.
Hmmm?
Clothed with Humility?
Dictionary – “a modest or low view of one’s own importance”
Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/leader/reverends???
Who have taken “Titles,” that do NOT exist in the Bible?
For one of “His Disciples?”
Who are ”Clothed with Humility?”
Having ”a modest or low view of THEIR OWN importance?”
xxxxxxx
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
LikeLike
KAS
You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM
“ Jesus is the Chief Shepherd it is true,
but he carries out this role using elders
as “under shepherds” if you like.”
NOPE…
I do NOT like…
In the Bible
There are NO under-shepherds” mentioned.
Someone has added “under-shepherds” to the scriptures.
My… My… Tsk… Tsk…
LikeLike
Amos,
You are dodging the question so I will repeat it. Are you calling pastors wolves if they teach tithing?
LikeLike
This conversation has reached the place where it sounds like most of you agree on the concept of supporting those taking the gospel to the nations. What would happen if each of us gave ten percent to whoever you feel is doing the work of the ministry around the world?
Then more people could go to the mission field. More work would get done.
What happens if we don’t?
The gospel is hindered.
Why is there so much resistance to the most important thing on God’s heart?
LikeLike
Avid Reader
I’m-a-thinkn,when you say ”Tithing.”
And, the Bible says, ”Tithing.”
It just ain’t da sam ting.
You ask…
“Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?”
xxxxxxx
Please explain…
What do ”you” mean when you say, ”teaching tithing?”
How do “you” ”teach tithing?”
How does “The Bible,” ”teach tithing?”
Did any of His Disciples tithe?
According to “your teaching?”
Which ones?
Did any of His Disciples give MONEY?
10%? of wages? as a tithe?
To a church?
Thanks
LikeLike
KAS
You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM
“Salty – if elders were simply older people in the church,
there would be little need for them to be appointed to a role
requiring certain qualifications, mostly character.”
NOPE…
Your reasoning is faulty…
Sounds to me like…
You do NOT know what those ”qualifications” are.
Like most congregations today, who are Hiring a pastor/elder/overseer.
Like Tulians and Driscols congregations…
They Certainly do NOT know those ”qualifications.” 😉
Hmmm?
Did any congregations in the Bible Hire a pastor/elder/overseer?
Oh… Nevermind… whatever…
And, if you do know those ”qualifications.”
Like most pastor/elder/overseers, who know them…
You will most likly ”Ignore” and ”Twist,” those ”qualifications.”
xxxxxxx
Do you ”KNOW” the 17+, tuff Qualifications?**
Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?
xxxxxxx
Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers???
Who meet the 17+, very, very, tuff Qualifications?
Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?
When you believe the lie you start to die…
LikeLike
Amos, you are still going around in circles to avoid the question.
So I ask again——is Amos making a blanket statement called pastors wolves if they teach that according to the Bible we have a responsibility to contribute (towards whoever you feel is taking the Gospel to the world) with at least 10% of our increase?
That’s a yes or no question.
LikeLike
Kas – Here’s just the first Qualification in Titus.
That most pastor/elder/overseers ”Ignore,” or ”Twist.”
1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
Titus 1:5-8 KJV
5 …ordain elders in every city…
6 If any be BLAMELESS, the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop 1 – “Must Be” BLAMELESS,
as the steward of God; NOT self willed, NOT soon angry,
NOT given to wine, NO striker, NOT given to filthy lucre;
8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober,
2 – JUST, 3 – HOLY, temperate;
1 – Must Be
Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
This must be is the same Greek word.
You must be born again. Jn 3:7
Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?
1 – BLAMELESS
Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
How many, pastor/leader/reverends, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering this one qualification,
can see themselves as **BLAMELESS,* without fault, innocent, and thus qualify to be an elder/overseer?
And if you can see yourself as BLAMELESS?
Is that pride? And NO longer without fault? 🙂
The Bible talks about elder/overseers.
And Qualifications for elder/overseers.
Can you have one without the other? NOPE…
xxxxxxx
Do your pastors/elders/overseers Qualify??? Oy Vey!!!
Will you ask them if they are BLAMELESS?
Without fault, innocent, guiltless?
That should be fun?
If a pastor/elder/overseer does NOT Qualify???
Will they remove themselves?
And be a good example to the Flock?
LikeLike
Amos,
Why would God give us a list of qualifications for leaders if there’s no one called by God to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.?
These are callings not thrones. The Bible makes it clear that pastors are NOT to lord over the flock but to tend to their spiritual needs. Why would God say that if no one is called by God to be a pastor?
And I’m still asking if Amos is making a blanket statement calling pastors wolves for teaching the concept of giving at least 10% of our increase (however you want to define increase) towards whoever you feel is taking the Gospel to the nations?
LikeLike
KAS – Here are two more “Qualifications” found in Titus…
That most pastor/leader/elder/overseers, “Ignore,” or “Twist.”
2 – JUST
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
3 – HOLY
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
xxxxxxx
Now that’s three tough Qualifications for
“pastor/leader/elder/overseer” – Yes?
1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY.
xxxxxxxx
KAS – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
Who meet just these three qualifications?
Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify??
If they are,
1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
2 – JUST. – ighteous, observing divine laws.
3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
Take a video for me when you ask them.
I’d like to see the look on their faces.
xxxxxxx
What should a pastor/elder/overseer do?
What should “Your,” pastor/elder/overseer do?
When they do NOT Qualify?
xxxxxxx
I’m-a-thinkn…
They should Go Away…
And be a good example to the Flock.
Yes?
xxxxxxx
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high,
yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth not the proud,
nor such as turn aside to lies.
LikeLike
Avid Reader – You ask @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 12:15 PM
“Why would God give us a list of qualifications for leaders
if there’s no one called by God to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.?”
xxxxxxx
Wrong question…
Better question…
If Paul, and most likely Jesus?
Gave these 17+ very tuff Qualifications for elder/overseer?
Why do pastor/elder/overseers take this “Position?”
They do NOT Qualify for???
xxxxxxxx
Aivd – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
Who meet just these three qualifications?
I just left on this thread?
Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify??
If they are…
1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
2 – JUST. – ighteous, observing divine laws.
3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
Take a video for me when you ask them.
I’d like to see the look on their faces.
And be sure to ask them face to face…
If they do NOT like you asking – Run…
Run for the hills…
LikeLike
Amos,
You’re still going in circles to deflect from the question. I’m still asking you.
LikeLike
Avid Reader,
I questioned your use of Doctor because we were talking about professional Religious Workers who (1) use religious titles/offices in churches and ministry and (2) who argue they are worthy of wages through tithing. That is a religious system that I have found to be extremely problematic and very different from traditional professions. Don’t try to mix them up.
There is no problem with any profession that provides real services for people who pay for those services, or even who get a salary through donations to a nonprofit, and provide free or subsidized services. The problem is making religion into a business. And when religiously-titled leaders claim authority (hierarchy) over members.
I know a thing or two about this. I was a missionary for 7 years raising support similar to what you described. There’s nothing wrong with getting support through voluntary donations to do the work of physical or spiritual healing. Yes, Jesus got such support, but from voluntary giving. Yes, the world needs more workers who can heal and help people and those workers should get a salary through some means. That reality is not being denied.
The problem is you are assuming what I described is the same as “spreading the Gospel” and getting paid through “tithing that Jesus himself taught.” No, they are not the same. (I assume we would disagree on how one defines the “Gospel.” But that’s another topic.) Jesus and Paul did not teach tithing to an institutional church, but rather voluntary, optional giving and being “released from the law.” As I said before, it’s okay to voluntarily support people in work, ministry, and spiritual healing. The problem is making a whole legalistic system around tithing to the modern, institutional church and then tell people it is mandatory to tithe to the church as a matter of obedience to God. Get it? Voluntary is fine, mandatory is not.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Avid Reader – You ask @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 12:15 PM
“Why would God give us a list of qualifications…”
Could the list of qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus, be…
A Test of someone’s “Integrity?”
God does test and prove “His People” A Lot in the scriptures. Yes?
Deut 8:2 NKJV, Gen 22:1 NKJV, Psalm 66:10-12 NKJV, Psalm 26:2 NKJV. etc.
Why would someone assume the role of pastor/elder/overseer…
And say they are a pastor/elder/overseer…
If they know they do NOT qualify to be an pastor/elder/overseer?”
Could it be a lack of “Integrity?”
What would you call someone, who called them self a pastor/overseer?
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a pastor/overseer?
What would you call a medical Doctor, who said they were a Doctor?
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a medical Doctor?
What would you call a Lawyer, who said they were a Lawyer?
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer?
Would you recommend a Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend?
If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Doctor or a Lawyer?
Or, would you warn your friend? – They do NOT Qualify?
Would you take the time to warn the Doctor? The Lawyer?
That you know – They do NOT qualify?
Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on…
A Doctor, or a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?
In my experience…
It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
pastor/elder/overseers who do NOT qualify.
Maybe that’s why “The Corrupt Religious System” of today…
is in such a mess and folks are leaving in droves…
pastor/elder/overseers – who do NOT qualify?
The Bible warns us, a lot – About False apostles, many False prophets,
False teachers, False Christ’s’, False anointed one’s, etc..
To trust No man. To not trust in princes. Let no man deceive you.
And The list goes on…
And lot’s of scriptures about trusting and following Jesus.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds
have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
LikeLike
Salty – Whilst I am not against a ministry by people who have given up ‘secular’ work, I’m very much inclined to see every member ministry as the norm, and for ever Paul that Jesus calls he calls a boat load of ‘fishermen’ to do his work. That is, ordinary bog-standard believers whom he gradually equips.
I don’t think protestantism ever quite got free of the old Catholic idea of the priest, a person in charge who can become an intermediary between ordinary believers and God. Think of some of the followers of celebrity ministers/pastors/apostles who hang on their every word and read every book, purchased at every conference.
Avid Reader – I think Amos is himself(?) the strongest argument against the position he is taking.
LikeLike
KAS
You could be correct…
“Amos is himself(?) the strongest argument against the position he is taking.”
Was wondering – Which position are you talken bout?
I gots lots of positions… 🙂
LikeLike
Well thought Amos was a her so please let us know if you want us to use himself or herself or some other pronoun when saying Amos ——(herself?)
LikeLike
Avid Reader – it’s possible to track down an A. Amos Love on blogger who is male. I assume it’s the same one.
Amos turned up at Fred Butler’s blog in 2012, and was eventually banned for repetition and obviously no desire actually to discuss anything. Fred eventually found Amos had been cutting and pasting his comments going back to 2009. I also found his comments above verbatim in the intervening period (without wasting too much time on it).
I don’t altogether disagree with Amos. There is, however, something very obviously missing.
You said above to Amos “You’re still going in circles to deflect from the question. I’m still asking you”. I think you might have along wait for an answer that isn’t {{{{{{ prepackaged }}}}}} !
LikeLike
Amos is male. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mwcamp,
We probably do have the same definition of preaching the Gospel. Jesus gave the definition in Luke 4:18(KJV):
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.”
Interesting how Jesus believed that healing the broken hearted was a very important part of preaching the Gospel.
Anyway, Mwcamp, that’s cool that you served on the missions field. We would love to hear some of your experiences, if you feel comfortable sharing them. However, I’m surprised that after several years of being on the front lines of ministry, seeing the desperate needs out there, why would you fight against the very way that God has ordained for providing more resources to spreading the Gospel? Isn’t more needed, not less?
Each of us matters in the overall plan of God. It matters whether we bury our heads in the sand, or obey the words of Christ on tithing. If each of us gave 10% of our increase to whoever we feel is doing the real work of spreading the Gospel, more work would be done. More people would be reached. It’s really that simple.
Why is there still so much resistance to the most important thing to God’s heart? Tithing is the command of Christ in the NT. Anyone who tells you differently is taking a scissor and cutting the words of Christ right out of the NT.
LikeLiked by 1 person
KAS,
Thanks for the info. That makes a lot of sense. I don’t understand Amos. He keeps talking in circles, making excuses, and avoiding my questions. He loves to make his case from OT verses but won’t listen to the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10 (NASB):
“Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, “How have we robbed You?” In tithes and offerings….. Bring the WHOLE tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house.”
Before anyone starts complaining about that being OT—look at all the OT verses Amos has quoted to make his case! Plus Jesus confirmed this in the NT. We’ve covered those verses previously.
Anyway, Amos is still hiding from my question on wolves so we will look for the answer by checking his comments.
On 10-9-17 at 7:45AM, Amos wrote:
“If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to Tithe…… That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”
Amos can deny his own words all he wants but that’s exactly what he said.
I rest my case.
Time to fade back into the shadows. Everyone, thanks for a really fun discussion.
Nite. Nite.
LikeLike
KAS
You’re such a Silly Dilly…
You mention Fred Butler…
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!
Do you know who Fred Butler works for…
Pastor John MacArthur…
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!
Fred Butler is part of an ”Ultra-Authoritarian Corrupt Religious System.”
Are you familiar with the ugly disgusting things Fred said…
About Julie Anne? Julie Anne and her family?
Fred Butler is a Bully.
Do some research about that ugly time if you dare. 😦
LikeLiked by 1 person
KAS
Of course I cut and paste…
How many different ways can you ask the same questions? 🙂
Of course Fred Butler banned me…
Fred is a Bully, and did NOT like the questions. 🙂
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!
How many different ways can you post?
”The Qualifications,” from the Bible?
For pastor/elder/overseer? 😉
By the way “The Qualifications” you brought up…
Then you refused to acknowledge, or answer, the questions…
Yup – those questions about “The Qualifications” in the Bible…
Are NOT very popular with pastor/elder/overseers today. 😉
Who do NOT Qualify. 😉
xxxxxxx
Maybe you can help?
I know I’ve asked ”you” these questions before about “Qualifications.”
And most are {{{{{{ prepackaged }}}}}
xxxxxxx
Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers???
Who meet the 17+, very, very, tuff Qualifications?
Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?
xxxxxxx
Now that’s three tough Qualifications for
“pastor/leader/elder/overseer” – Yes?
1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY.
xxxxxxxx
KAS – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
Who meet just these three qualifications?
Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify???
If they are,
1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
2 – JUST. – Righteous, observing divine laws.
3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
Take a video for me when you ask them.
I’d like to see the look on their faces.
xxxxxxx
When you believe the lie you start to die…
LikeLike
Avid Reader
You write @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 8:22 PM
“Anyway, Amos is still hiding from my question on wolves
so we will look for the answer by checking his comments.
On 10-9-17 at 7:45AM, Amos wrote:
“If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to Tithe…… That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”
Amos can deny his own words all he wants
but ”that’s exactly” what he said.”
xxxxxxx
NOPE…
I NEVER said that…
I do NOT deny what I said.
That is NOT ”exactly” what I said.
That is a ”false statement.”
WOW – You just made another ”false statement.”
My… My… Tsk… Tsk…
xxxxxxx
Here is ”exactly” what I wrote…
fir yur readin pleasure…
I have NO problem with any believer giving MONEY.
Giving MONEY to a ministry… Giving MONEY to people…
I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 😉
If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY…
To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
As a requirement? From the Bible?
That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.
That is what “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” often teaches. 😉
xxxxxxx
Ask me again and I’ll tell you the same… 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Avid Reader,
Tithing is not a command of Christ. To get that it is, you must read the NT in a very literalist way in which any phrase can be interpreted out of historical context and assumed to be universally applicable. That is an irresponsible way of reading the Bible. Telling the truth about tithing is NOT resisting things that are on God’s heart. I find that very manipulating, trying to lay guilt on people. You seem to miss whatever I or Amos say and then spout back something that we did not say. Supporting people to spread the good news of Jesus and demonstrate his love ethic is good… but only if one is asking for voluntary donations to a person or nonprofit or toward a grant. Mandatory tithing is not biblical. Plus, one does not need to be salaried through donations to spread God’s love. Spreading God’s love is no dependent on church’s sending missionaries. God works through many means to reach people.
If you do a little research, and have an open mind, you might discover what Amos and I are saying is based on sound, historical and biblical study. Here’s one book that I recommend > https://www.amazon.com/Tithing-Low-Realm-Obsolete-Matthew-Narramore-ebook/dp/B00JAJQJ1G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507735257&sr=8-2&keywords=tithing
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey mwcamp…
We posted at the same time…;-)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amos, amazing. We’ve both said it several times in different ways and it doesn’t get through. Teaching required tithing is wrong (and a curse, per the NT) but teaching voluntary giving (not under compulsion as Paul taught) is encouraged.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“the front lines of ministry”
Avid, there’s more Christianese.
What is the front line of ministry?
You mean service right?
That we are allllll called to.
Am I on the ‘front line of ministry’?
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s right, Amos!
KAS, Just do a search for “Fred Butler” in the search field on the right side of the blog. Have fun! 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Great Bible study and conversation regarding the tithe. To be released to give freely under Jesus’ Ways is truly liberating brings the soul of every believer, great joy! To know, within the depths of our souls, that we are giving in the Name of Jesus Christ, for His Kingdom, brings us good cheer, fully knowing that we are not giving under compulsion.
And it is wonderful to give freely to those whom are in great need, sowing God’s love, mercy, grace, and peace into other souls around us. I agree with Avid Reader, it would be enlightening to hear of your missionary experiences, mw camp! It would surely give the Body of Christ, here on Julie Anne’s blog, great hope in building up our faith.
Also, not to cause another venue of trouble or argument, but I had these thoughts as a youth, pondering the state of Christianity, and it went like this:
“How come the church goers spent so much time and money on that building big fancy building and all of the icons in it, spent vast amounts of money on the landscaping, tarred parking lots, lights, security cameras, gymnasiums and community centers added on to the temples made with human hands, big screens, state of the art sound systems, libraries filled with books, state of the art kitchens, coffee shops filled with goodies, church buses/vans/cars with their church designer logo on them for advertisement (sure the designer made big bucks off of the ‘church’), etc……………………………………………………………………………………..
and NOT visit the sick and pray for them or at least bring over a hotdish and visit for awhile to encourage them and build them up, or come along side the struggling single mother raising her children alone, or help out that dad raising his children without a mother, or help out that widow who is growing old and needing younger helping hands to assist with the work, or visiting those with dementia still in their homes suffering loneliness, or
simply being the hands, feet, and the Word made flesh, Jesus, to people in their homes…….as in believers meeting together in Acts?
So much time teaching the ‘tithe’ to build up buildings/temples and the junk that goes with it, and neglecting the true Body of Jesus Christ, who worships in spirit and truth, without walls to hinder the work of God, the Holy Spirit.
I believe the “missionary fields” are wide open here in America; perhaps the greatest missionary field to date!
How many churches have this on their fancy signs outside of their temples:
“Pastor: Jesus Christ”
LikeLiked by 1 person
KAS, Just do a search for “Fred Butler” in the search field on the right side of the blog. Have fun!
Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know Fred was a Guest of Honour here, but I shall take a look! 🙂
I am aware of your altercations with him in the past, though not all the details. I’ve mainly read Fred’s blog to see if anyone from the immediate MacArthur stable can in fact be reasonable, unlike some of the more obvious bullies. Bully may be a tad strong, but certainly ‘no loss to the diplomatic corps’. Petulant.
I’m seriously starting to wonder if the insensitivity and hardness of heart of so many Big Names, coupled with a seeming absence of humility, is an unintended by-product of ‘hardcore’ Calvinism.
LikeLike
KAS, I wouldn’t call Fred Butler a guest of honor. Anyone whom you can search in my blog’s search field most likely has a history of inappropriate or abusive behavior. I don’t think bully is too strong of a word in his case.
LikeLiked by 1 person
JA – it (‘Guest of Honour’) was tongue-in-cheek!
LikeLike
Yes, I know. But I wanted to make sure there was no confusion if there were other new readers.
LikeLike
Avid Reader
You write @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 8:22 PM…
“He loves to make his case from OT verses but
won’t listen to the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10 (NASB):”
I’m-a-thinkn, I now understand Malachi 3:8-10…
Much differently then what ”you” were taught…
And, what ”I” was taught, and believed…
You might try Avidly Reading ALL of Malachi…
Over, and over, and over, again, and again, and…
Asking Jesus, to help ”you” to understand…
Like I had to do after leaving “The System.”
To understand, “Who was Malachi, God, talking to in ALL of Malachi?
To understand, “Who Robbed God?” In Tithes and Offerings?
To understand, “Who Robbed this whole nation?”
To understand, “Who was under a curse?”
xxxxxxx
Malachi 3:8-10 KJV
Will a man rob God? Yet ”ye” have robbed me.
But *”ye”** say, Wherein have ”we” robbed thee?
In tithes and offerings.
*”ye”** are cursed with a curse:
for *”ye”** have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Bring *”ye”** all the tithes into the storehouse,
that there may be ”meat” (Food) in mine house…
xxxxxxx
Avid – Haven’t you ever wondered why?
With all the instructions Paul gave to believers…
Paul never asked them to tithe? From wages? MONEY?
The Jerusalem council in Acts 15…
Never asks the new gentile believers to tithe? From wages? MONEY?
Neither does Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Timothy, James, or Jesus…
Ask believers to tithe? From wages? MONEY?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amos, you have identified one of the great errors of popular Bible reading. That is, claiming a set of verses, in this case Malachi 3:8-10, comes from the heart of God WITHOUT taking into account (1) the context of those verses in that prophet’s writing (who was he addressing, why? etc.), (2) the historical context of that prophet in time among the people he is writing (how people perceived tithes), and (3) the way Jesus or the early church interpreted the stipulations in that passage (e.g. the Jerusalem council). Quoting a verse or passage without these three elements to inform them and then saying the prophet/writer is commanding the contemporary generation or church is simply irresponsible use (or abuse) of the Bible.
LikeLike
mwcamp – It’s a long time since I read up on tithing, but I agree with you. As I understand it, there was more than one tithe under the law of Moses, and if your contribution was turned from agricultural produce to money, you had to add a fifth of the value on to it.
I believe NT believers have been delivered from the law of Moses absolutely, it no longer applies to them except as a guide to right from wrong, and usually incorporated into the NT when it does so. This means Christians are not under any obligation to tithe at all, let alone to a local church. Some of the purposes for which tithes were gathered are covered these days by general taxation. Tax isn’t voluntary, whereas Christian giving is!
I wish those evangelicals who criticise the church of Rome for having a priesthood, and who deny such a special priesthood applies to believers today would be consistent and refuse to put believers back under the law of Moses when it comes to tithing. It’s obsolete.
I fear all too often those who do so are only trying to guarantee themselves a secure and overly generous income.
LikeLiked by 1 person
KAS, well said!
LikeLike
mwcamp – Avid
After I left “Today’s Corrupt Religious System,” early 90’s….
Through much Pain, Tears, and Spiritual Abuse…
I did my own research on this… err… Strange B. S., called, “The Tithe.”
Found out, the Abusive pastor/leaders I knew, were teaching…
Commandments of Men, Traditions of Men, and NOT the Bible.
I would read all of Malachi, over and over, again and again…
I wanted to know…
In Malachi 3:8-10?
1 – Who was Malachi, God, talking to in Malachi 3:8-10?
2 – Who Robbed God? In Tithes and Offerings?
3 – Who Robbed even this whole nation?
4 – Who was cursed with a curse?
Then, one day, I see it…
Malachi 2:1
And now, O ”ye priests,” this commandment is for you.
Yup – Best I can figure…
It was The Priests, The Religious Leaders, Malachi talked to.
The Priests, Who were Robbing God in Tithes and Offerings.
The Priests, Who were Robbing even this whole nation.
The Priests, Who were cursed with a curse.
For sacrificing blind and lame animals.
NOT giving God the best.
NOT the regular folks.
NOT WE, His Sheep, His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Friends…
NOPE…
You’re NOT likely to hear this from the pulpit… 🙂
Oh yeah… Strange B. S., stands for…
Strange Belief Systems… 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
mwcamp – Avid
In Chapter 1, Malachi, God, begins talking to “The Priests.”
Malachi 1:6-8 KJV
A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:
if then I be a father, where is mine honour?
and if I be a master, where is my fear?
saith the LORD of hosts unto you,
O priests, that despise my name.
And ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 ”ye” (priests) offer polluted bread upon mine altar;
and ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we polluted thee?
In that ”ye” (priests) say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
8 And if ”ye” (priests) offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil?
and if ”ye” (priests) offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?
offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee,
or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Chapter 2, it’s still the Levitical Priests. And God sends a Curse on them.
God has a sense of Humor… 🙂
It kinda sounds like God is giving The Priests another chance…
To do the right thing… Or, God will send a curse.
Then, right in the middle, He changes His tune…
And says, ”yea, I have cursed them already,”
Malachi 2:1-2 KJV
And now, O ”ye priests,” this commandment is for you.
2 If ”ye” (priests) will not hear, and
if ”ye” (priests) will not lay it to heart,
to give glory unto my name,
saith the LORD of hosts,
I will even send a curse upon you, (priests)
and I will curse your blessings:
yea, I have cursed them already,
because ”ye” (Priests) do not lay it to heart.
It is still the Levitical priests, who corrupted the covenant of levi.
Malachi 2:7-8 KJV
For the priests lips should keep knowledge,
and they should seek the law at his mouth:
for ”he” (priests) is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ”ye” (priests) are departed out of the way;
”ye” (priests) have caused many to stumble at the law;
”ye” (priests) have corrupted the covenant of Levi,
saith the LORD of hosts.
LikeLike
mwcamp – Avid
In Chapter 3, It is still the Levitical priests, the sons of Levi.
who have made the offering of Judah and Jerusalem…
unpleasant to the Lord.
Malachi 3:2-4 KJV
But who may abide the day of HIS coming?
and who shall stand when HE appeareth?
for HE is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And HE shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:
and HE shall purify the sons of Levi, (priests)
and purge them as gold and silver,
that ”they” (priests) may offer unto the LORD
an offering in righteousness.
(Priests were sacrificing blind and lame offerings.)
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
be pleasant unto the LORD,
as in the days of old, and as in former years.
It is still the Levitical priests – Who robbed God, in tithes and offerings.”
Malachi 3:7-9 KJV
Even from the days of your fathers ”ye” (priests)
are gone away from mine ordinances,
(Mal. 2:8 ”ye” (priests) have corrupted the covenant of Levi)
and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you,
saith the LORD of hosts.
But ”ye” (priests) said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ”ye” (priests) have robbed me.
(Blind and lame offerings.)
But ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we robbed thee?
(The priests asked similar questions in Mal. 1:6-7)
In tithes and offerings.
(The Tithe was always food to eaten or sacrificed.)
”ye” (priests) are cursed with a curse:
for ”ye” (priests) have robbed me,
even this whole nation.
In Malachi 3:9…
Isn’t this the same curse that was on the priests in Mal. 2:2?
Have the priests robbed God?
And also robbed, “even this whole nation?”
Could God NO longer bless the people, “bless Judah and Jerusalem?”
because of the priests and thus robbing the people?
“even this whole nation?”
Malachi 3:4
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD.
When will that be?
Mal. 3:3
When the sons of Levi are purged. ( the priests )
that they (priests) may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
xxxxxxx
Best I can figure Malachi 3:8-10, was written for ”the priests.”
Who were robbing God…
LikeLike
Good points.
LikeLike
Who in the world is Fred Butler? Is he someone who deems himself of great importance (being first) within a certain religious venue? Never heard of this individual in my entire life until now. And very grateful I may add!
I often wonder if those in religious hierarchy are offended, insulted, and downright angry when the Body of Christ doesn’t recognize their names and their importance amongst us. Would this Fred Butler person be able to have faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation if he was one of the lower laity?
Just wonderin’.
LikeLike
Katy
“Who in the world is Fred Butler?”
The Wartburg Watch posted this on Friday.
Phil Johnson and Fred Butler of Grace to You (John MacArthur)
Attack Brannon Howse
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/10/13/phil-johnson-and-fred-butler-of-grace-to-you-john-macarthur-attack-brannon-howse/
LikeLike
Fred works for Grace to You. He’s not in any leadership position as far as I know except for leading a class or Bible study. He just happens to be a chief defender of Phil Johnson and John MacArthur (and all people and things related). He has a blog and is very vocal in social media. Because he defends the big guys, he’s gets a free pass to be a bully, like the rest of them.
LikeLike
I agree that we should pray for the people that got hurt in all these situations. Tullian admitted the hurt he caused. I don’t understand how his testimony couldn’t help someone that’s hurting or blown it all. That God’s grace can meet then right where they’re at. It doesn’t mean that repentance shouldn’t follow. He’s just coming out saying God’s meeting him where he’s at in his ruin. I’m tired of all this bashing. Why don’t we pray that their repentance is genuine and let whether it’s genuine or not be between them and God? Let’s stop trying to decide what we think their fate should be.
LikeLike
Sure, in the vaguest possible terms. Not impressed.
Because Tullian isn’t “hurting”. He’s remarried to a sweet young thing, living in a swanky part of Houston, and on the comeback trail. He’s even suckered a new pastor into trusting and supporting him. How does this qualify as “hurting” by any definition?
Because Tullian insists on being in the spotlight. If he’s going to put himself and his words out in public, then the public gets to judge whether his repentance is genuine.
For that matter, I’ve yet to hear any news of him apologizing to Julie Anne for calling her filthy names, and for instructing his loyal followers to attack her online. Wouldn’t that be considered a sign of repentance?
LikeLike
Also…He only admitted after he got caught. Multiple times. You don’t get points for that!!
LikeLike
I’m not convinced that he even admitted to all of the victims that I reported on (let alone that I didn’t report on).
LikeLike
Tullian is disqualified from ministry. This is not being mean, it is a Scriptural fact. His adultery, betrayal of his former church, his unscriptural remarriage, his lies, his reluctance to be straightforward in his confession and repentance, his using the Gospel as a justification for ongoing sin, and his not taking any steps to be reconciled to his former church. I think those who continue to defend Tullian need to remember how he lied while writing books and speaking at his conferences. For those whose who have not done so, please read the letter calling Tullian to repentance that is signed by David Tripp and Elyse Fitzpatrick. Tullian needs to stop causing division by seeking to return to public ministry. He should face everyone he betrayed and get a job and go to church. There is really nothing else he can do. My concern is he will use his lies and adultery to write a book and return to the speaking circuit. Unfortunately, there are many Christians that he can continue to hoodwink.
LikeLiked by 1 person