The Power of a Transformed Wife, Lori Alexander, Control, Submission
-by Kathi
This is a book review series of The Power of a Transformed Wife by Lori Alexander. If you are just joining us, you may click on previous chapter reviews to catch up.
Introduction & Chapter 1 Chapter 2 Chapter 3 Chapter 4
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Chapter 5 – What Submission Looks Like
This chapter is a lot more straight forward than the last chapter, meaning there’s no jumping around, yet the contradictions remain. Let’s start with this one:
You see, the best thing you can do for your children is to love their father deeply and care for his needs. Too many wives neglect their husbands once they have children. We think they are grown men and can take care of themselves, but they still need a help meet.
Hold on now! What happened to men don’t need a mother because they are grown ups and can do what they please? Can’t these independent men take care of themselves? Why do they desperately need a help meet to take care of them? Men, how did you manage to stay alive so long?
I’m sure you’re all wondering what submission means to Lori. This is very important to know because according to Lori:
We preach the gospel to a lost world when we submit happily to our husbands as Christ did to the father.
No, Lori. Complementarianism is not the gospel. The gospel is about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. This is husband idolatry.
Here is what submission looks like in Lori land:
- Forgive easily and immediately. Only think nice thoughts about your husband and you will treat him nicely.
- Value your husband’s ideas and don’t mock them.
- Don’t expect your husband to live up to all of your expectations. Does this work the other way around?
- Don’t try to control your husband. At all.
- Love, serve, respect, submit, please, and obey your husband.
- Finally, obeying your husband in all things.
What does it mean to obey your husband in all things? Lori wants you to ask your husband questions to find out: what food he likes and prepare them, how he likes you to dress, how you should respond to him, how tidy he wants you to keep the house, and all of the little things that makes him happy. Women, if you don’t know things such as what your husband likes to eat before you marry him, I would advise you to reconsider this relationship.
I thought I would ask my husband of 25 years (next week!) these things thinking that perhaps I’m lacking in the area of being submissive. So, I cornered him in the bathroom while he was in the tub (hey, I had a captive audience) and asked him about the above. Our conversation went like this:
Me: So, I’m trying to learn how to be a more submissive wife. Will you answer these questions so I can become a better wifey?
He: I guess. You know I’m in a vulnerable position here.
Me: What are your favorite foods you would like me to prepare for you?
He: Hamburgers. Well, duh. I knew that when we were dating just by the amount of times we would go to In-n-Out to eat.
Me: What would you like me to wear?
He: Nothing. Well, duh again.
Me: How would you like to respond to you?
He: Are you serious? (Big sighs. Lots of sighs.) I guess, honestly.
Me: How tidy would you like me to keep the house?
He: What a stupid question. Tidy as much as possible.
Me: What are the little things you would like me to do for you?
He: Again with the stupid questions. The little things only bring pleasure for a moment. It’s the big things that count. Are you honest? How do you treat people? How do you respond situations? Can I finish my bath along now?
This Q & A didn’t take long because he really thought it was silly. Do complementarian men really want a wife that is only there to please and satisfy him? Wouldn’t that get boring after a while? Does a complementarian wife really not see any value in having ideas and thoughts of her own? How about if a husband wants a wife to vote a certain way yet she is not comfortable doing so due to her own convictions? I can tell you that’s not gonna happen in my house!
I know this is getting long and I could go on and on. But, I have to end with this blog post that Lori features at the end of the chapter. This makes me dislike Ken more. His lack of empathy for Lori’s physical pain shows that he thrives on power and control over his wife. Is Ken’s ego so fragile that he must show how his wife is under his control? I would love to hear your thoughts about this quote from the post.
Ken loves to stand up during worship at church while we’re singing. I prefer to sit down since my lower back and feet hurt if I stand too long. On Sunday, he stood and I stood up beside him and asked him if he prefers I stand with him. He smiled and said, “Yes.” I then whispered why I don’t like to stand long. Later, we talked about it and he told me that I was welcome to sit down after a minute or two if I start to hurt at all, but he does like me standing beside him. So I decided I will stand now whenever he stands. My desire is to be a submissive wife and even if I’m not perfect yet, I am a lot better than I use to be!
Photo courtesy of Pixabay.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
This woman is an agoraphobe, and I’ll stop right there.
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So sad.
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Maybe she should take it a step further – let him stand on her sore back (to extend the doormat metaphor. . . ) 😦
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So gross.
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I wonder if they hand out the “Stepford Wives” as part of the instructional material.
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Kathi,
I will still stand behind my belief that you are one brave and courageous individual for having the patience in reading through Lori’s penned works. I would have burnt them in the garbage pile a long, long time ago.
WOW! Just Wow! Lori has been so deceived by the enemy, I dare say she preaches another Gospel, one that is foreign to Jesus Christ. And she does great damage in encouraging death to the female soul in being a people pleaser instead of following Jesus, our One and Only Master.
I ran the sprint out of an abusive church that believed this junk, with many a woman preaching and trying to teach me this garbage. One woman, at our gossip study (never cracked open our Bibles, so I lied when shared with folks that I belonged to a Bible Study….we never studied the Scriptures), told me point blank, “Your husband should go to the Promise Keepers Conference with our husbands.” After careful research concerning the Promise Keeper belief system, I never planted any seeds of encouragement in him attending, let alone kept silent about the Promise Keeper conference; never rolled off of my tongue. Nope! If men have to go to a promise keeper (what does that mean anyway) to learn how to be a man, Biblically speaking, then the Gospel is of no effect by the leading and power of God, the Holy Spirit, for where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is freedom. Not oppression.
Funny thing is, in that complementarian church, spousal abuse (behind closed doors) is at an all time high, while the plastic smiley face syndrome reigns supreme during Sunday morning festivities, and marriages are struggling, big time. Many a wife has called my home in tears due to the verbal and emotional abuse imparted on the part of the complementarian male: and women get the verbal backlash from even buying a bread maker without the vast wisdom on the part of the husband in picking out the “right one.” After all, a woman cannot purchase an appliance without the consultation (control) of her husband, eh? It was and still is an evil religious system as far as I’m concerned, no regrets and no looking back at that pseudo Christian quick sand……my hope is The Rock….Jesus Christ. Amen!
And Thank-You, Kathi, for sharing your conversation with your husband. What good fellowship you have together and I laughed and laughed and am still laughing. You two are great and I love it! Keep being who you are in Christ, individuals, and yet, still one. I tried to fit into that complementarian mold in that last religious oppressively “right” church, and was losing my soul to pleasing manipulative and controlling men and women who preach, teach, and are trying to live out this false theology. It would have been another “death of a mind and soul.” And when the Scriptures say, “Let your yes be yes, and your no be no, ” I believe there were no genders attached to that particular teaching.
Great work, Kathi. I am certainly edified in my faith today! Blessings!
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Husband = master.
Wife = plantation slave …..
whose sole reason for living is to please her master, as his beck and call, smiling all of the time. (or as Catherine mentioned – a robotic Stepford wife, programmed to please and serve the owner). Either way, it’s fake. So to be good wives we have to fake it, 24/7/365???
Yessah, massuh…. whahevah you sez……. Ah go does it right now, massuh!
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That is idolatry. Why doesn’t she just say “There is one mediator between God and woman, a man.”
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@Katy – “I will still stand behind my belief that you are one brave and courageous individual for having the patience in reading through Lori’s penned works. I would have burnt them in the garbage pile a long, long time ago.”
I would not burn LA’s book. I own firearms. One of them is a double-barreled 12 ga. shotgun! ; ^ )
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Katy – I was laughing the whole time we had a our little Q & A. There I am sitting on the toilet and he’s in the tub. I think it annoyed him more than anything because he found the whole topic disturbing. He’s said to me many times that he doesn’t know how I can stand to read that garbage. So, there I am being a rebellious wife and annoying my husband instead of pleasing him!
I don’t know much about Promise Keeper’s. My Dad has been a part of a group for a long time. I look at my parent’s marriage, though, and I see it nothing like Ken and Lori. My Mom works and my Dad is “retired,” works a part-time job from home, and cleans the house. They both travel the world, sometimes together and sometimes separately. I really don’t know how much Promise Keeper’s has affected their marriage.
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What person would want marriage if it reduces us to this? Why go from friendship to this low subordinatism (not sure if that’s a word). No wonder the patriarchal churches want all women subordinate to all men, it destroys friendship, dating, affection between siblings.
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I wish I could burn this book, but I bought the Kindle version. You can be sure that I’ll be removing it from my device when I’m done. I’ll have no use for it. Now, I still have the children’s book from Desiring God. Any takers?
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Lori Alexander should study the passage where she gets the phrase “help meet” (Genesis 2:18). She uses it to support her call for submissive wives, while the context shows that the phrase (ezer kenegdo in the original Hebrew) refers to equal partners in marriage.
Marg Mowczko has done good work on this: <a href=:http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/kenegdo-meet-subordinate-suitable-or-similar/“>Kenegdo: Is the woman subordinate, suitable, or similar to the man?
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Sorry about messing up the hotmail code. The link works, though.
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Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrote on ezer kenegdo as well:
“If Genesis 2:18 merely used the word ezer, the original readers might have thought the woman to be a superior helper since (as Aimee points out in the excerpt on ezer above) the word was used to refer to God and his strength as the rescuer of Israel, often in passages with militaristic language. When the word is applied to God as helper or strength, we know he’s being described as a powerful helper of unstoppable strength.
“By adding the modifier kenegdo (meaning suitable or of the same kind), Genesis 2 is clear that the woman is not to be considered a superior created being who condescends to help the man as God reaches down to help his people, but is instead a helper at the same level as the man. In other words, if the woman had been described with the word ezer alone, it might suggest she is superior to the man. The full phrase ezer kenegdo thus shows that men and women are of equal strength in God’s kingdom.” (The Impotence of Sanctified Testerone.)
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Tim – I fully agree. Lori reads the Bible literally (KJV only), reads commentaries that support her views, and consults her 1868 Webster’s Dictionary for words study. Any variation from that is considered to be in violation of God’s ways. It really is sad because the evidence of scholarly study shows otherwise.
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Promise Keepers is poison. Tony Evans spoke at one of the conferences:
“Tony Evans, co-editor of Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper: “Sit down with your wife and say something like this: ‘Honey, I’ve made a terrible mistake. I’ve given you my role. I gave up leading this family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that role’ . . . I’m not suggesting you ask for your role back, I’m urging you to take it back.””
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Kathi, I’m thinking he was in the tub to relax and have peace and quiet. No wonder he was disturbed. Lol. I cracked up at the whole conversation. Brian is too funny. Please thank him from me.
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Lori doesn’t know understand that there are many so-called Christians like my former abuser husband, a man who could say anything he wanted, no matter how demeaning or cruel, but would shut me down when I tried to reason with him. He did everything in his power to isolate me from friends, family and sources of emotional support, expected me to do virtually everything inside the home while working full-time and taking care of four children, and expected me to be sexually responsive after one of his shaming tirades. Of course, he asserted his actions were consistent with his God-given authority.
The amazing man to whom I am now married has never demanded that I submit to him or even raised his voice at me. He sees me as his equal and his prize and looks out for me in every possible way. This is the difference between a godly man and a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I fear that Lori cannot distinguish between the two, which makes her teachings very dangerous.
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“I wish I could burn this book, but I bought the Kindle version.”
Great quote!
When I read stuff like that I wonder if the author is making a parody of satire.
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Lori acts like a self-righteous princess. It pains me to see women who have to work hard to feed their kids to be constantly shamed by her. She never gives practical advise but reverts to “God will provide”. She has zero empathy for the real life struggles women go through. It sucks to have chronic physical pain (I also suffer from it), but unlike many women-she doesn’t have to go to work, had a nanny when her kids were young, good health care and a husband who supports her. She blogs for one reason in my opinion-her ego. She loves her fan girls and shames or blocks anyone who questions her. I wish people would stop feeding the beast!!!
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I have news for Lori. In an abusive marriage it doesn’t matter how submissive or doormat-like you are… he’s NOT going to be happy with you. You will never be able to cook what he likes (what he liked one day will go down the garbage disposal the next), you won’t be able to dress as he likes (you should dress more sexy / you’re just trying to get the guys to look at you), you won’t be able to respond in a way to please him (leave me alone / you’re never available when I want you), and the house will never be tidy enough (one abusive husband went down on his hands and knees with a magnifying glass to see if the carpet was clean enough). On the other hand, as Kathy pointed out, in a non-abusive Christian marriage, all those questions are just silly because as friends we BOTH want to please each other as much as possible but understand that “life” happens and things simply aren’t going to be perfect.
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I’ve done so much reading about this stuff – marriage, dating, abuse, having boundaries.
The long and short of it is that normal, healthy adult men do not want a woman who will be overly compliant. Men want to feel needed, not pampered 24 hours a day, 7 days a week as though they are big toddlers.
The books I read by psychologists, therapists, etc, said that usually in such marriages (again, if the male in question is normal and not abusive) is that they do get bored in such relationships that Lori advocates, and they have extra-marital affairs and/or divorce their submissive wives.
Among the only men who find this overly compliant submissive junk appealing are guys who are abusive (or who have other issues – maybe deeply insecure – whatever – but they are not mentally healthy partners who will treat a wife well is the point).
For those of you more familiar with Lori’s work, does she ever present two-way street advice, like does she or her husband write blog posts telling men to treat their wives with kindness, do the laundry on days the wife is feeling sick, etc etc?
If not, why not? Why do so many complementarians over-emphasize a wife’s submission and how and what a wife can do for a husband, to please a husband?
A husband should please his wife as well, and do kind things for her, too.
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Clarification:
Well, from what I’ve read, most men (even the healthy kind) do in fact enjoy a woman pampering them round the clock – but only for a while.
Normal men will eventually tire of it – some men may tire of it after two weeks, some two months.
But at some point, these books by doctors say, the guy gets tired of it, feels as though he’s un-needed, and will seek out an affair or a divorce.
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Quoting Lori:
I think this is part of the reason Weird Al’s “First World Problems” song was written.
Complementarianism, Lori’s brand of it, seems to only work for women who are middle to upper class women in Western nations. (And who are married to nice guy who have steady incomes).
I’ve seen stories on Christian tv shows about women in foreign nations who only earn about 2 dollars per year, their husbands died, leaving them to raise and feed 2 or 3 kids alone, having to walk to muddy water holes 2 or more miles away for cooking and cleaning water.
I don’t think women in such situations are going to care or wonder about if standing during a worship song is going to offend or please some man. Please.
And you know what else? You can be single like me. I’ve never married. I get to really please only myself. If I don’t want to stand during a worship song, I keep my butt planted on the pew, thank you.
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I wanted to add something else about this:
Even if I were married>b?, and I had a husband who wanted me to stand in spite of a back problem I had, I would laugh hysterically at him and remain seated.
Here’s what I wanted to add. (I apologize this is a long comment.)
Even though my mother raised me to be a doormat – like Lori is telling other women to do – I had my limits.
I usually did go along with this complementarian- doormat stuff, but if I felt it was an unreasonable, really stupid, or unfair request, I would brush it off.
Here is one example…. When I was engaged to that self- absorbed, ex- dork of mine, there was one time he phoned me, asking me to drive to his apartment to clean his dirty dishes for him.
His job was such, he got called away from home every two weeks. (He did not have the usual 9- to- 5 job where he worked at an office daily, like most people do.)
His boss would notify him 2 – 3 days prior to each time he was being sent out, so my ex knew darn well and good when he would be leaving town. It’s not like his boss would spring this on him out of the blue, leaving him no time to tidy up his place before he hit the road.
My ex had this bad habit of allowing dirty dishes to pile up in the sink.
Most people will either wash their dirty dishes immediately after eating off them, or they may wait a day or two before getting around to it, there-by cleaning up 2 or 3 sets of dishes, which isn’t too bad.. not my ex. Nope.
My ex would LITERALLY have a stack of dirty dishes piled up in his sink that was about 2 or 3 feet high. He would wait a week or longer before tackling a stack of dishes.
Let me also state here that in that place of his, and one or two prior apartments he had, I used to clean them up for him because he was a bit of a slob.
(I could not sit comfortably on the sofa in his den (that I had paid for) next to him to watch the big screen TV (that I had paid for, btw), while seeing all the debris on the carpet, kitchen floor, junk around the place.
So I used to clean his homes FOR HIM. I’d vacuum, dust, throw out trash, etc.)
Now, my ex was financially irresponsible, as well.
I had told him a billion times leading up to this “dirty dish fiasco” in the years previous that he needed to pay his bills on time, etc. But he was always getting late notices, coming to me to help him pay his bills (with my money from my job). I told him that was not acceptable.
I came from this family where I was taught the guy is supposed to be financially responsible, be a good provider, etc, so I told my ex he needed to step up to the plate and start paying his bills on time, stop asking me to pay his rent and car payments for him, to demonstrate to me he was ready to be married.
So, one day, my doofus ex calls me from the road. He phoned me while I was at home to drive (it was a 45 minute drive for me) to his place to clean his stack of dirty dishes off for him.
I was incredulous (and very angry). I said nope.
My ex reasoned with me, “You’re always saying I have to prove to you I’m good ‘husband material’ [here he’s referring to the times I had asked, pleaded, begged him to stop bouncing checks, stop asking me for money, to pay his own bills, pay them on time, etc], so I am asking you to prove you are good wife material by going to my apartment to clean my dirty dishes for me today.”
Never mind that he was an adult, they were HIS dirty dishes, he had at least 2 – 3 day notice he would be leaving home, giving him plenty of time to scrub his own stupid dishes before he left home, and I had cleaned his apartment for him many times in the past…
he also didn’t factor in it took me 45 minutes to drive to that place, 45 mins back to my home.
I was not wasting all that time in my car, use up all that gas, to do a chore he should have done himself. (And who leaves so many cruddy dishes pile up they are like 3 ft high??)
My ex was like, “(whine whine whine), but if you don’t clean my dishes, when I get back they will be moldy, cruddy, and flies will be buzzing around the sink.”
I’m sorry, but that incident took place when I was still a complementarian (a reluctant one, because by this time, I was highly suspect that this nonsense that Lori Alexender pushes is true and “biblical”), yet I realized how unfair and stupid it was.
“Help meet” does not mean, “Be free maid service, or a slave, to an irresponsible, inconsiderate, lazy, failed- to- plan- in- advance, selfish idiot man.”
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Yay Daisy! Glad you are free from that jerk. (I could say more, but I’ll keep it family friendly.)
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Thank you, Kathi.
I’m not even a total neat freak. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being a super clean person, 1 being a slob, I’m about a 6 or a 7. But my ex was maybe a 3 or so.
I did other stuff for that ex of mine. He one time called me from another apartment he had (again, a 45 min drive for me) around 1 or 2 in the morning.
He said he had a fever, had chills, felt like he might throw up, etc. I told him I was sorry he was feeling bad (and I really meant it, I genuinely was sorry the guy felt lousy).
He wanted me to come over to his apartment. I asked why he wanted me to come over.
He said he didn’t have any other friends/family there to help him. But I was thinking, all the times I had gotten colds, the flu (as an adult), I just stayed in bed and suffered through it alone.
I said, “Can this wait until morning? I can come over in the morning.”
He insisted I come over pronto – and there again, it was like 1 A.M., he woke me up out of my sleep, and it was a 45 min drive from my place to his. (He didn’t have any pain pills, cough medicine, or anything at his apartment.) So I hauled my rear end out of bed right then and there.
I drove the 45 min trip to his part of town, went to an all-night Wal-Mart, where I bought (using my own money) cough syrup, Tylenol, other cold/flu medications, a bucket (for him to puke in, if he couldn’t make it to the john in time), and an electric blanket for his chills – the store only had one brand of electric blanket there, and it was $90.
I got to his place, baby him a little, give him the cold pills, etc., the blanket, etc., then I went back home.
(Honestly, I don’t know if he would’ve gone that far for me. I really wonder, if I had called him at 2 in the morning with the flu would he have gone to Wal Mart and stuff for me? I really cannot say.)
What blew me away is that other day on the phone, he was wanting me to drive to his place to clean off his 3 – 4 foot stack of cruddy dishes to prove I’d make a good wife….
He was doing this, after all the previous times I had cleaned his cruddy apartments, drove to his place at 1 a.m. with flu meds?
I had paid his rent for him, groceries, and other bills for him a several times. What more did I have to do to prove I’d make a good wife?
Oh. My ex later loaned the $90 electric blanket I gave him (that I had bought at the all night K-Mart or Wal-Mart or whatever for his flu), he gave it to his mother, who moved to a new home, took the blanket with her, and she broke the dial thingy on it, so it could no longer be used as an electric blanket. She rendered the thing useless.
Any time I bought any thing brand new for my ex (like furniture or gadgets), he’d turn around and instantly break whatever it was, or “loan” the stuff to his family (his mother, uncles, or cousins) who would either break that stuff, or never return it. It’s like I was Santa Claus for his whole family.
I one time bought my ex a pair of nice upholstered bar stools for his apt (brand new!!), I came back about 2 – 3 days later, and said, ‘What is this stain on the bar stool?’ He told me he had just spilled coffee on it a day before.
I cannot believe that complementarians expect women to put up with this sort of stuff. (I put up with it for a good long while but said bye to that ex.)
I’m not going to “submit” to an irresponsible, selfish, weenie. He was just so incredibly incompetent.
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Daisy, did you see ‘coming to america’?
Some of this stuff reminds me of the opening scene where the eddie murphy is interviewing his future queen. ‘Whatever food you like”. If you haven’t seen it, that’s basically comp fantasy right there.
The whole obey thing from Lori gets me, especially when people start talking about obeying without thought. I don’t think anyone is asked to obey a person without thought, even children who are actually told to obey their parents. But there are limits.
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“She loves her fan girls and shames or blocks anyone who questions her.”
Lori reminds me of the extremely sexually sadistic misogynistic conservative Christian men I grew up with. She acts like she has a hateful penis, Lori is not feminine, she is d*ckish. The man that repeatedly sexually abused me for years as a little girl would approve of every pro female slavery fetish of sicko Lori’s.
How gross and embarrassing for Lori to have the same turn-ons as a little girl rapist.
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I wonder if her grandchildren will be Christians?
My mother’s parents were fundamentalists and very scornful to anyone who didn’t follow their ultra-legalistic life. Of the 8 grandchildren, only two consider themselves Christians.
My father’s parents were mainstream Christians, and didn’t sit around discussing theology all day long. Of the 5 grandchildren on that side of the family, four follow Jesus.
Fundamentalism destroys the faith of the next generation.
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Good thoughts, Anonymous2.
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the clue is in the bible in how men should behave. With “bravery” “honesty” “loyalty” etc.
the clue is in the bible in how women should behave. With “bravery” “honesty” “loyalty” etc.
I have a tendency to “ignore” some of the anti-patriarchy posts, because I see them as mere scorn and gossip.
I have a tendency to “ignore” some of the anti-matriachy, posts because I see them as mere scorn and gossip.
Do I need to explain more about the types of posts I will take the time to consider as reliable information when it comes to “biblical faith”?
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I just read Lori’s blog post or part of it. From what I conclude, I don’t think her husband was being insensitive in that example she described but the problem is she confuses submissive as being a yes woman. She even makes a big deal about another Christian woman blogger who refused to sit down when he husband wanted to when she was making a lot of noise cheering and clapping in the church. Although to be fair, I thought that woman was being ridiculous refusing to sit down just because her husband insisted to show he’s not her boss, when I don’t think he was trying to be but just wanted her to stop making a scene at their church. As for Lori’s ideas of submission, some of the questions she listed is what a wife should have already know about their husband when they’re dating/courting not after marriage. Of course a wife shouldn’t neglect her husband but take care of his needs, serve him but that is a two-way street. In fact a like her what her suggested are a two-way street in a marriage. I much a wife keeps the house tidy as little to do with submission as non-Christian wives also do these things plus a Christian wife can keep the house perfectly spotless and still be unsubmissive, neglectful, cold, domineering, etc. besides in some homes, the husbands can contribute to the household chores and cooking, my father is a example of that. I don’t want generalize all complentarians since not all of them have extreme views like Lori, in fact some like Beth Moore even get criticized by the hard-core comps for being too feminist. Anyway I agree with lot of you said in this post, good article. God Bless.
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Sorry, I made an error when typing my website url, so the website won’t show up but I corrected here. Sorry again.
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Kathi,
It is obvious that you and your husband do not have a complementarian marriage. Complementarian husbands would be taking showers, not baths. 😉
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The act of “making fun” or patriarchy groups proves that there is not a “spirit” in the people who do so. If a website makes fun of patriarchy all-the-time even of single grandpa who raises his twin-disabled grandchildren alone, the website is FALSE when it comes to reporting spiritual abuse.
Making fun of “men,” even slightly off morally men, has no place in kingdom building. How can this website claim that it knows everything there is to know about Lori’s life. WHat if the man in her household (aleph means head- beth means house…combined hebrew alphabet equals “head of house”) came from a poverty background which makes him a little skewed when it comes to authority in the first place. Were not there some disciples who were a little “off” when it came to what JEsus was teaching them? How does your website claim superiority to JESUS and what he thought about the disciples and their skewed behaviours?
Right now I have a friend on my facebook feed. HE IS JEWISH. HE KNOWS THAT PEOPLE FALSELY ACCUSE MEN and he has dealt with it personally. THey falsely accuse good, decent men of pedophillia. The men get stuck with a “sticker” for the rest of their life with a “sex pervert” crime or even put into a prison for simply touching a woman of immaturity’s hair or making two or three comments. Such irregaurds to the act of forgiveness needs to be considered, or GOOD RIGHTEOUS men will continue to be placed in a prison.
Herrod’s daughter thought her self so “Self-righteous” in her cause she WANTED the head of John the Baptist. When websites label patriarchy as bad, they also label matriarchy as bad.
Why not fill in the time with TRUE cases of abuse. Actual RAPE. Actually sodomy. Actual ignoring the poor. Actual medical kidnapping…….
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As on quote by a Jewish professor: ” Too many “charismatics” out there “discerning ” people’s guilt, without any proof!”
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JEsus was never “anti-patriarchy”.
Without patriarchy, there would be no Jesus. There would be no gospel. Multiple examples in the bible. Infact the word father is mentioned more in the bible than mother. In hebrew, father means LOVE.
Abraham is a father of the faith (and of other middle eastern faiths too….).
Jesus chose 12 MEN to be disciples. He even chose a “Wicked man” who betrayed him.
The 12 men had flaws, they didn’t understand perfect love. Jesus TOLD MEN what perfect love was (Joh_15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.) They tried to tell JEsus what was right, but JEsus himself knew what was right.
so keep the anti-patriarchy pro-hate-all-men posts going and I will continue commenting of what the GOSPEL means. It means the adulterous woman stops her act and sees the truth by repenting.
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“The act of “making fun” or patriarchy groups”
I was born and raised in a patriarchy household and church. I do not think it is anything to joke about and is not funny.
Patriarchy is slavery of women and little girls, sex slavery of women and little girls.
Patriarchy is loser, creepy, childish, selfish, sexually sadistic, dumbest of the dumb, unattractive, unwanted, coward, know-nothing, lying, pedoish men.
The man that repeatedly raped me the first ten years of my life was obsessed with man power, wifely submission, and women and girls breeding against their wills. His favorite word was submission. Other words he threw around, feminism, Jezebel, rebellious woman. Anytime a woman or little girl did not kiss his bottom properly she was a Jezebel, feminist, and un submissive female. He needed a trapped @ss kissing female slave. Nothing was ever his fault, any man’s fault. Everything wrong in the world was always un submissive females faults.
My father was in love with patriarchy. He hated all females, even toddler baby girls. He mocked raped little girls, he wanted my cousin to die from pregnancy, because she was an unmarried pregnant sixteen year old.
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@Nancy2:
Don’t forget that in the Peculiar Institution, Massuh also had de facto sexual rights over his Animate Property, in the manner of a Roman Paterfamilias. Brown Shugah and all that.
P.S. There’s another place where the woman “is all about submission”:
PORNOGRAPHY. Where the woman exists only to submit to the Urrges in the Man’s Arrreas.
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ChristianityHurts:
CH, your father was a SICKO.
Specifically, a classic Sadist — the pain of others gave him Pleasure.
(As well as knowing ALL the Christian “Complementarianist” buzzwords.)
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@Daisy:
Sounds like a steady diet of Candy, Candy, and more Candy.
P.S. You know the joke about how candy factories used to keep their workers from munching on the product? Let them eat all of it they wanted — until they ate themselves sick (i.e. OD’d) and didn’t want to even look at the stuff.
P.P.S. And how the Paris Hilton set is always going “I’m SO Bored”? Same reason.
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@JesusFollowingIsHard:
The man on Top who Holds the Whip, of course.
And sees himself as living a Porn flick with his always-willing animate sex dolls completely under his thumb. (Probably because that’s the only way he’s ever going to get any; I’ve seen the pattern among Furry Fanboys.)
Until (like the Junior Anti Sex League in 1984), there is nothing to Love other than Big Brother.
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@Quality:
So how does criticizing a harmful system (patriarchy) equate “making fun of men”?
Personally, I believe that patriarchy is harmful to both men and women. My husband has never tried to control or dominate me and has always treated me with respect and kindness. Yet at our former church, we were exposed to teachings about marriage and childrearing that were harmful to us, our marriage, and by extension, our children. I will not elaborate right now, because I don’t have time.
I’m a Christian feminist. I hate patriarchy because I believe that it hurts children, women, and men, and the body of Christ. I don’t hate people with patriarchal beliefs. I don’t hate men. I am married to a man who I dearly love and respect.
I have sons who dearly love. It is my goal in life to raise them to be men who will follow Jesus. Men who will respect their fellow human beings and not try to exercise power and control over others. Men who will stand up for the rights of others and speak out against injustice and oppression. What’s so bad about that?
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@Katy:
Christianese-Jargon-to-Mainstream-English:
Lori is wrong. DEAD Wrong.
What she teaches and preaches is not only Aberrant, but genuinely DESTRUCTIVE. Primarily to women, but also to men, encouraging the oppression of women by men.
And she claims Cosmic-level Justification by “God Commands It”.
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@TheWaryWitness:
Has anyone watched any Mel Brooks movies?
Notice how Brooks portrays Nazis when they show up in his films?
As ridiculous fools. (Similar to Charlie Chaplin’s The Great Dictator.)
In an interview during his heyday, Brooks said he was using ridicule as his weapon of choice, to discourage youths from joining that particular set of hate groups/cult. That some can be attracted by Evil if it comes across as macho and powerful, but nobody wants to join up with a bunch of ridiculous fools.
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Qualified, I notice you are posting with 2 different names. I’m not going to allow two different names on posts that endorse patriarchy. There are other times people use more than one user name where it is appropriate (and necessary for privacy reasons) and I don’t have a problem with it. Not your case, however. Please stick with one or the other. Thank you.
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Quality,
Where on earth are you getting the ‘pro-hate-all-men’ business from, hmm?
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@Lea:
That’s the one part of the movie I have seen (channel-flipping years ago).
Notice the movie did NOT present this as “a good thing”.
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@JulieAnne:
“Build me an army of sock puppets worthy of Mordor…”
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“In hebrew, father means LOVE.”
In Christian patriarchy, father means infantile, petty, mean-spirited, selfish, self-worshipping, self-important, self-elevating, life ruining, toxic brat.
“Infact the word father is mentioned more in the bible than mother.”
My mother suffered through the sickness of pregnancy and the pain of childbirth for me. My mother nursed me. My mother gave me life at her physical and emotional expense.
My Christian patriarchy father didn’t do anything, but insist he get his brat bottom kissed by his trapped female slaves. My Christian patriarchy father is just some creepy selfish childish patriarchy man I wish I never knew.
My mother earned my respect, my father couldn’t because he was patriarchy.
“anti-patriarchy pro-hate-all-men”
The Taliban are patriarchy. ISIS are patriarchy. The men who shot Malala Yousafzai are patriarchy. The man that sexually abused me as a little girl couldn’t live without patriarchy.
Patriarchy men are not all men. They are selfish loser men who can not hack it in the real world. They are scared of women and need trapped female slaves like Ariel Castro and Phillip Garrido did.
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This is idiotic and borderline blasphemous.
Mary was key to Jesus birth, not Joseph. Certainly not ‘patriarchy’. Go back and read the real bible, not whatever nonsense you are reading.
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No. It absolutely did not, in fact finding a woman with something more to her was basically the plot.
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Lea said:
“Without patriarchy, there would be no Jesus.”
“This is idiotic and borderline blasphemous.”
“Mary was key to Jesus birth, not Joseph. Certainly not ‘patriarchy’. Go back and read the real bible, not whatever nonsense you are reading.”
Let’s not forget the important women listed in the genealogy of Jesus. Tamar, the daughter-in-law of one of the great patriarchs, who had to trick him by pretending to be a prostitute so she could have her rights guaranteed. Oh, yes, a great patriarch of the Israelites seemed to like prostitutes. Rahab, the prostitute, who hid the Israelite spies and by doing so was integrated into the Israelite family. Ruth, the foreigner, who because her faithfulness to Naomi and Boaz’s willingness to fulfill his duty married into the Israelites . Bathsheba, who would never have been in the genealogy if it had not been for David’s sinful desires. And Mary, a young girl pregnant outside of marriage.
The patriarchy of each woman’s time could have killed her or shunned her for her sin or status, yet God chose to elevate these women.
Quality, you may find my writing to be “making fun” of patriarchy. I’ll admit that I’m sarcastic about it all because it’s all hogwash. BTW, there are times in the Bible when Jesus was sarcastic (and angry) about legalistic teaching. Patriarchy no longer deserves a place in a Jesus centered church culture. We are all free in Christ. Patriarchy does not offer freedom, but offers bondage. Patriarchy also does not deserve a place in a society that works to offer opportunities to everyone.
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@ quality
Jesus was not pro-patriarchy.
Jesus, like God the Father in the Old Testament, had to operate in a patriarchal culture, though. (Putting up with it or working through it does not equate to accepting it or endorsing it.)
Quality said, “Jesus chose 12 MEN to be disciples”
That is irrelevant. “But the 12 Apostles Were All Male”
Quality said, “so keep the anti-patriarchy pro-hate-all-men posts going”
I don’t think anybody here “hates all men.”
Could you please specify what you mean by that though, give examples?
It just annoys me so much when posters like this show up, make one or two posts with very general complains and don’t back them up, and they don’t cite examples.
As much as my ex fiance’ was a self-absorbed loser (I described some of his annoying tendencies in a post or two above), miracle of miracles, I don’t hate all men because of it, and still hold out hope to one day find a decent one to marry.
I am definitely anti-patriarchy, though, because it’s just sexism, or contains a lot of rules that are unfair to women.
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Lea: Re: Coming to America movie.
I think I saw part of it on TV a few years ago but wasn’t paying close attention when it was on (I sometimes just have the TV on as background noise while I do other chores)
If or when it’s ever repeated on TV again, I’ll watch it more closely.
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I hope I didn’t bore everyone with my two long posts above about my ex fiance.
I just think it’s illustrative, in some ways.
I know we often hear from women whose ex husband’s were horribly physically abusive, which is way worse than what I went through with my ex fiance’, but I think it goes to show that even on a lesser level, what complementarians and pro-patriarchy types expect women to put up with.
Had I married that Doofus, it would’ve been a terrible marriage. I would’ve had to divorce him, and many times these Christians who promote complementarianism forbid divorce. They tell you that you must stay and suffer with a guy no matter what.
Had I married my ex, as I’ve said a time or two before, he was so inept, I would’ve been forced into the “Male Headship” role they say is for husbands only, because my ex was not terribly intelligent, he was irresponsible, etc.
I would’ve had to have been the one to keep tabs on finances, keeping stuff repaired, paying bills on time, etc. My ex was just too dumb, lazy, and irresponsible to be counted on for any of that.
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Re: quality post of – MAY 22, 2017 @ 4:56 AM
Dude, what? Were you strung out or high when you typed that?
I cannot make sense of most of what you typed. I can only guess at what you were trying to convey.
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Daisy, this is the scene I was talking about. But you should watch the movie because it’s pretty funny. There is also a great dance sequence right before the scene below.
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The scene that Lea mentions is near the start of the film. Seriously, you can’t miss it. By the time it’s over, the prince’s arranged bride-to-be is hopping on one leg and barking like a dog, just because he’s asked her to. And not to belittle or abuse her, but to see just how far her (and his) parents have gone to “program” her as the “perfect royal wife”.
It’s at this point that the prince decides to “come to America”, to seek an actual person to get to know, and marry.
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Whoops! Should’ve refreshed before typing. Ignore the above comment. It was never there. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Move along. 🙂
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Oh man, I should have looked for a longer clip with all of that too! (I might have seen that movie a bunch of times 🙂
Yes. It’s not her fault, she’s probably a very nice lady with many fine qualities. Maybe they should have done a followup movie about her learning to be a real person!
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Quality, the problem with what Lori is promoting is that living by rules and believing you will gain God’s blessings because of it is living according to the Old Covenant rather than knowing Jesus paid the price.
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I know this is an old post, but I thought I would comment because it’s taken me this long to get around to asking my husband the “submissive wife” questionnaire that Lori recommends.
So, I cornered him in the kitchen while we were fixing dinner together and our youngest was safely strapped in his high-chair. I guess that makes me a bad wife already, since we were fixing dinner together and not me doing all the cooking by myself.
Me: Hey Darling, I would like to do a little experiment. I’ll need your help.
Him (raises eyebrows): Do we need to go upstairs for this? The kids are hungry; maybe we should eat first.
Me: No, I’ve actually been studying online about how to be a more submissive wife. You can help me be answering these questions about how to make you happy.
Him (laughing): I’m already happy.
Me: What would you like me to wear?
Him: In what context?
Me: I don’t know. The blog post didn’t say.
Him: A bikini. Or nothing.
Me: What are some of your favorite things to eat? (As if I don’t know already)
Him: You! Also steak, pizza, icecream, broccoli, asparagus, blueberries, icecream, and steak. (Well, duh. I know steak is his favorite food — he always cooks it on the grill on holidays).
Me: How tidy would you like me to keep the house?
Him (laughing out loud): Like that’s ever gonna happen!
Me: How would you like me to respond to you?
Him: Vigorously!
Me: What are the little things you would like me to do for you?
Him: Oh, I don’t know. You do so much for me already.
We both got a really good laugh out of this! To put things in context, we are madly-in-love, happy egalitarians and my husband is a stay-at-home dad.
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Wary Witness – Thank you for doing this! I’m glad you had some fun with it. I love the responses!
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