John Piper on Complementarianism: A Hill to Die On

John Piper, Desiring God, Complementarianism, Egalitarianism, Gender Roles

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-by Kathi

Desiring God recently posted an episode of Ask Pastor John titled, “Is Male Headship a Lost Cause?

The question posed to John Piper comes from a seminary student in the United Kingdom who is discouraged to see more churches in his country move toward egalitarianism. Add in the legalization of gay marriage, and this distraught seminarian wonders if male headship will endure.

John Piper starts his answer in only the way John Piper can:

Complementarianism will endure. It is not a lost cause. The reason I think it will endure and is not a lost cause may not be exactly what you think. Let me give you three reasons it will endure that are not the reason I’m going to give.

Is anyone confused from the start? Please speak clearly John Piper.

He moves on to list three reasons why complementarianism will endure. I’m assuming that these are the three reasons we expect to hear.

First, complementarianism will endure “because it is true to God’s word.” According to John Piper, complementarianism is too ingrained within the way God created mankind and with salvation for it to fade away. Yes, complementarianism is a salvation issue.

Second, complementarianism will endure because the creation and meaning of man and woman is evident in the structure of the church and the home. He states:

Complementarianism is not a fringe on the fabric of home and church. It is part of the single fabric that binds the two together.

Finally, complementarianism will endure because God is good and sovereign. Of course. Who can argue with God, am I right?

Which leads John Piper to the one answer we didn’t think we would hear. I can almost hear the glee in his voice as he springs this upon our unsuspecting ears.

So, the reason among all the other reasons that I mentioned and could mention that I believe complementarianism will endure is not a passing fancy — is not going to go away — is that no matter how great opposition to Christianity becomes, there will always be a remnant of complementarians willing to die for the truth, and they will be the kind of people who will give their lives rather than conform to a nonbiblical culture.

Seriously. Apparently complementarians hold steadfast to the truth of gender roles that they are willing to die. They are willing to risk their lives for male control over the pulpit and home? I suppose these martyrs will not sacrifice male headship because that would mean that they lose their salvation.

To be fair, John Piper doesn’t think that only complementarians are going to be Christian martyrs. What He is saying us that complementarians who are not swayed by shifting cultural change, are ones who will hold fast to truth unto death. In John Piper’s view, Christian egalitarians do not hold on to truth. Does that mean they are not worthy of being called a martyr for their faith? While Piper says that is not what he means, he states it in a way that he means it.

I guess complementarianism truly is a hill to die on.

 

Photo courtesy of Pixabay

68 comments on “John Piper on Complementarianism: A Hill to Die On

  1. The sad thing, Kathi, is that I can hear John Piper in my head as I’m reading the post. And I can hear his tone inflections in my mind, and he makes it all sound so plain, and logical, and beautiful, and glorious. It’s just that it isn’t plain at all. He’s confusing! 🙂

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  2. Actually, I’ll correct that. I listened through his explanation of the three reasons he was giving that was not the one he was going to give. I had to turn it off then.

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  3. There are doctrines to die for and there are “doctrines” we don’t die for. Sounds like this is the latter. A doctrine to die for would be the resurrection.

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  4. I’ve had a copy of “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” since the mid-1990s, and at that time I read it cover to cover, assuming that egalitarian meant “feminist” and feminism was, of course, bad. Then for a number of years I pretty much blipped out of the issue and didn’t want to think about it at all. (I had a kind husband, so I didn’t have to think about it.) In the past few years, with many abuse survivors in my life–none of whose abusive husbands or fathers were egalitarians–I’ve had to face this issue more. But I’m about to let my ignorance show here. I want to ask those of you who have followed this issue more closely than I have and understand it better: Have John and his peers identified complementarianism with salvation only in recent years? I certainly didn’t think I saw that back in the 1990s. Did I just miss it then? When did it become a core doctrine, part of defining Christianity? When did it become a hill to die on?

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  5. That’s a good question, Rebecca.

    Actually, in a way? I welcome this statement from John Piper.
    For years, I have observed that complementarianism is a belief that is central to certain sects. I’ve been frustrated that it is not listed front and center on church websites where they list their “fundamental beliefs” such as the resurrection of Christ. I believe to leave it off is misleading.

    I don’t know that it’s intentionally left off–I don’t know that those in the pews recognize that it has become a test of orthodoxy for them, even while they use it as such. It will be interesting–and possibly scary–to see whether Piper’s statement here is accepted by those in the pews.

    In short, I believe that Piper is articulating what has long been the view held by some complementarians, though not always consciously. And I think some may refute what he says here.

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  6. Thanks for the laughs. I can picture Flutterhands Piper pontificating during this session with that pained look on his face.

    Rebecca, I’m going to say that I think the beginning of the Complementarian Movement began with the writing of the Danvers Statement, which was written some time in the 1980’s. But the real thrust of this Movement, when it really began to get wings, so to speak, was with the success of the Conservative Resurgence of the Southern Baptist Convention, when they kicked out all the “liberals” in the SBC seminaries and then rewrote the BFM (Baptist Faith & Message) in 2000. Also, the with the rising popularity of the ESS doctrine, Eternal Subordination of the Son, begun by George Knight III in the 1970’s, and now with Wayne Grudem to carry the ESS torch, which is taught in all the SBC seminaries.

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  7. I hate John Piper, I really do. I hate him enough to want to punch him repeatedly in his quivering, blithering face. I hate all those “gospel” Coalition plonkers with equal vitriol because they’re all such stupid, egocentric baboons.

    “Complementarianism” will most certainly not endure, and I only need one reason (not three-plus-a-big-Super-Serial-one). It won’t endure because it’s the heretical theology of idiot weaklings.

    Piss off, John-the-Piping-Pipsqueak. Nobody’s going to remember you when you’re gone.

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  8. John Piper picked a peck of pickled Patriarchalists;
    A peck of pickled Patriarchalists John Piper picked.
    If John Piper picked a peck of pickled Patriarchalists,
    Where’s the peck of pickled Patriarchalists John Piper picked?

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  9. Dash,

    Thank you for saying what we were thinking. Love your last sentence. 🙂

    Piper won’t actually follow his own rules. Even when he told women to submit to violence, would he submit to someone who tried to hit him? Of course not.

    (Legal disclaimer: this is a philosophical discussion, we are not advocating violence!)

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  10. Darlene – I was wondering if he talks with his hands when he doing a recorded interview.

    Michelle – I’m not sure when it started, but there has been a push for quite a while to preach complementarianism on a regular basis. It certainly has become an important part of doctrine next to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

    Avid Reader – You’re welcome! Sniffing through the b.s. is my second spiritual gift.

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  11. Mr. Piper, in my opinion, has what I consider some severe mental health issues. I am no expert and this is not a diagnoses just my observation. If he had loving people they might help him to seek help.

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  12. ‘… a seminary student in the United Kingdom who is discouraged to see more churches in his country move toward egalitarianism’
    I can assure you that here in the UK, the christian faith has almost no power to influence anyone, or spread a message of complimentarianism. Something like 8% go to church. The average brit, if they ever had complimentarianism explained to them, would just laugh in disbelief. Two wages are needed here to have a modest home and raise 2 children. Most of us do not have the choice about working, we may be a SAHM for 1-7 years but then really have to work outside the home just to cover basic living expenses. I think hell’s gonna freeze over before any of Piper’s odious twisted beliefs make any progress here Thankfully they are a lost cause Mr delusional Piper.

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  13. Which hill does John Piper plan to die on?

    The one where he says women must avoid any jobs that give them too much direct influence over men in a work environment because that would “OFFEND a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership and thus controvert God’s created order.” (Recovering Biblical Manhood p. 51)

    The hill where he says that all women must submit to all men in every situation even down to “the most casual relationship with a STRANGER on the STREET.” (p. 44)

    The hill where he tells men to resent female coworkers in the workplace if they have too much “direct” influence.

    Does Piper really want to die on this hill?
    “A woman may design the traffic pattern of a city’s streets and thus exert a kind of influence over all male drivers. But this influence will be non-personal and therefore not necessarily an OFFENSE against God’s order. Similarly, the drawings and specifications of a woman architect may guide the behavior of contractors and laborers but it may be so non-personal that the feminine-masculine dynamic of the relationship is negligible.” (Recovering p. 51)

    “The God-given sense of responsibility for leadership in a mature man will not generally allow him to flourish long under personal, directive leadership of a female superior.” (p. 52)

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  14. And the way that John Piper wants to volunteer the rest of us as martyrs for his personal craziness is just insane!

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  15. there will always be a remnant of complementarians willing to die for the truth

    This sounds almost blasphemous to me! Piper better stay away from lightning.

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  16. The only people ‘dying’ for complementarianismistism are women, who are killed physically or emotionally by their gotta be boss husbands.

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  17. “The God-given sense of responsibility for leadership in a mature man will not generally allow him to flourish long under personal, directive leadership of a female superior.” (p. 52)

    I apparently missed this one. Probably the caveats here are that ‘mature’ man actually means ‘immature’ man. Smart people will learn from anyone who knows something they don’t and wise people will follow wisdom. Only stupid people will reject knowledge and wisdom because of something unrelated like sex or race.

    Piper has outted himself as a deeply stupid person.

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  18. “Let me give you three reasons it will endure that are not the reason I’m going to give.”

    Yogi Berra wanna be?

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  19. @AvidReader:

    The one where he says women must avoid any jobs that give them too much direct influence over men in a work environment because that would “OFFEND a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership and thus controvert God’s created order.” (Recovering Biblical Manhood p. 51)

    AKA “because that would offend MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
    Given by a guy who could have modeled for both (physical) The 90-lb Weakling and (emotional) The Male Drama Queen with a constant case of the Vapors. (Maybe that’s why he’s so Handmaid’s Tale Male Supremacist — both those traits are traditionally Feminine. He’s self-affirming “ME MAN! ME MAN! ME MAN! REALLY! ME MAN! RAWR!”)

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  20. @Lea:

    Only stupid people will reject knowledge and wisdom because of something unrelated like sex or race.

    Piper has outed himself as a deeply stupid person.

    But He Has A Verse!
    “The Wisdom of GOD is Foolishness to Men.”

    Though Frank Zappa seems more appropriate in his case:
    “Stupidity is like hydrogen; it’s the basic building block of the universe.”

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  21. @brian:

    Mr. Piper, in my opinion, has what I consider some severe mental health issues. I am no expert and this is not a diagnoses just my observation.

    Some cultures believe that Insanity is the touch of God or gods and that the Insane are thus Sacred.
    Didn’t know until now that American Calvinism was one of them.

    If he had loving people they might help him to seek help.

    But NOBODY tells the CELEBRITY anything other than What The CELEBRITY Wants To Hear.

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  22. So now complementarianism is worth dying for? Does that come with a complementary grave marker? Sorry, I have a warped sense of humor.

    On another note, if all the female doctors, PA’s, NP’s, nurses, physical therapists, respiratory therapists, medical technicians, paramedics, etc., etc., all quit their jobs and stayed home, there probably would be some people dying.

    It’s a good thing my male patients don’t have a problem with my gender when I authoritatively tell them that they’re having a heart attack and I’m calling an ambulance.

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  23. OK, nobody has commented on the picture yet. Not that there’s anything that unusual about it, but it reminds me of the B.S. that my former pastor pulled at my wedding.

    Even though my husband and I attended an IFB church and theoretically agreed with a lot of comp doctrine at the time, we choose to have egalitarian wedding vows. Our vows were identical, and they did not include anything about obeying or submitting. I guess the MOG didn’t like that, because he chose to go on a little monologue about gender roles in middle of the ceremony.

    It was during the exchange of the rings. He addressed me directly, pointing out that my ring was smaller than my husband’s, and saying that that symbolized my role in the relationship. I basically felt like he was belittling me for being female — on my wedding day!

    I didn’t think about it a lot at the time, because I was so happy to be getting married to my best friend, but it bothers me now every time I think about it. My husband says don’t worry about it — it was our wedding, regardless of what someone else may have said, but it still bothers me. Sigh.

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  24. It was during the exchange of the rings. He addressed me directly, pointing out that my ring was smaller than my husband’s, and saying that that symbolized my role in the relationship.

    What????

    what a jerk.

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  25. Rebecca Davis,

    Hope you don’t mind me asking, but just curious, since you had read Recovering Biblical Manhood book, have you had a chance to read the book Ten Lies the Church Tells Women by J Lee Grady?

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  26. Piper and his ilk seem to parrot the same attitude that has bastardized the teachings of Christ throughout history. Christ spoke of serving one another and loving God and your neighbor as the whole of the gospel. Somehow people have translated “one another” and “love” as “rule over”
    The teachings of Christ have been used to justify slavery, conquering “pagan” nations, physically abusing children (Michael Pearl), racial injustice, limiting women’s opportunities, blaming LGBT communities for targeting children, confusing spiritual precepts with joining the “correct” political party and basically allowing for one group (Christian men) to appropriate power and authority over everyone else-because, well, Jesus says!
    Will someone please inform Piper what hill Christ died on!!!

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  27. Rhonda,

    Your comment near the top cracked me up. Yup, that would finish off that heretical bunch big time. 🙂

    “So if the remnant die for this doctrine that would be the end of complementarianism. Am I right????”

    Dash,

    Agreed! “It won’t endure because it’s the heretical theology of idiot weaklings.”

    Lea,

    Loved your spelling: “complementarianismistism” which looks a lot like:

    Complementarian is mististm–another word for: They have missed it!
    OR another spelling for ‘mysticism’! Which applies as well.
    Take your pick. 🙂

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  28. While in Uganda and Kenya last month, I got to teach on Biblical Gender Equality again. In my teaching I take some moments to briefly expose Complementarian teaching. The people there see how foolish this belief is!

    At one of the five conferences that I taught on this topic, some ladies came to my co-worker and said that in one of their churches the Comp. teaching was being promoted. I said that it didn’t surprise me that this heresy would find its way from the U.S. to Africa, and sure enough, it was being peddled there as The God’s Truth.

    I love to see the enthusiasm among the Christians there after a day of teaching on Biblical Gender Equality. They are quickly on board and ready for the second day. They see the truth in God’s Word and desire to walk in His ways and abandon both Traditional and Biblical Patriarchy for what the Bible ‘really’ says! They desire to see change and be the change. How neat is that?!

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  29. Trying to find the exact quote, but I was just reading something about how if patriarchy was God’s will then the Ten Commandments would say “Thou shalt have no gods before man.”

    But the verse that blows patriarchy out of the water is “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt out of the house of bondage. You shall have NO OTHER gods before me.” Exodus 20:2-3

    Piper has forgotten Gods command “keep yourself from idols.” 1John 5:21

    It’s the same temptation Adam fell for in the Garden of Eden—-wanting to be like God, usurp Gods throne in people’s lives. Be warned that it won’t work, the devil tried that and got kicked out of Heaven.

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  30. Barb Orlowski, that is absolutely beautiful that you are getting to spread the message of liberation and equality around the world. How sad that the heresy of traditional American gender roles are being peddled abroad as “God’s plan.”

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  31. I think John Piper’s momma hit him in the head far too many times. I think John Piper’s wife needs to hit him in the head many times.
    All compleMENtarianism does if feed the egos of weak men. They won’t say it outright, but they strongly insinuate, over and over, that men are much more important to God than women. Men serve and worship God; women are to help the men. What women do has nothing to do with God and everything to do with men. God keeps women at a distance. He really doesn’t want to have anything to do with us, doesn’t really want us to be involved in the churches.

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  32. Jenny, you don’t speak for everyone in the UK. My daughter met online a guy from Wales who attends a very strict Brethren church. They were both following the writings of Douglas Wilson of Idaho. They are definitely complementarians– even bordering on patriarchal. He works in oil in Scotland and makes plenty of money– they never plan on her working. In addition, his dad was a doctor and his mom has rental properties. They have the ability to live their beliefs out.

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  33. Irene, you’re right, there are pockets of it here in the UK. The evangelical Anglican church I used to go to was hot on that sort of teaching. However Jenny is also broadly correct – the vast majority of British people don’t see church as having any relevance to their life, let alone extreme teachings like these. The pockets there are, are pretty small, although they do exist.

    This whole thing reminds me of something I heard years ago on Al Mohler’s radio program. He was talking about homosexuality, and he said something along the lines of, this sexuality and gender question is the litmus test of true Christians in our culture. He reasoned that this is one very obvious issue where you can tell how committed a person is to upholding the Bible. In other words, if a person says homosexuality is a sin, they are upholding God’s word and are a true Christian; if not, then they have strayed and their salvation is in question. Never mind that they might be a professing, committed, church-going believer who simply holds a slightly more nuanced view than Dr Mohler – nope, that person is a dreadful liberal who is on a slippery slope to deny Christ and burning in hell.

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  34. this sexuality and gender question is the litmus test of true Christians in our culture

    And those are probably the least important things according to the bible. They are only priorities for him because of culture and politics, I think.

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  35. Liz – You make a good point. I think that we have seen a greater push for gender roles and it’s close proximity to salvation since people have generally become more accepting of homosexuality.

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  36. Complementarianism is soft patriarchy. Had to deal with a lot of patriarchs at a previous church. They believe that the family is the fundamental building block of the church and state. I shut a pastor up who was trying to teach that, because I said the conclusion of the “two sphere” view is that every parental decision can be appealed by the child to the church or state.

    But… for those who teach patriarchy, the family must be protected at all costs, and more specifically, the fathers’ absolute rights over all in the family must be protected. On the flip side, anything believed by the patriarchs to separate or destroy the family is a hill to die on. Adultery, no-fault divorce, LGTBQ, public school, women’s careers, college for women.

    We had fathers who wanted to serve communion to their family. Fathers who wouldn’t allow their kids to attend Sunday School (they stayed in the adult class). Fathers who wouldn’t let their kids join the youth group (having “fun” outside of the family was immoral). Fathers who insisted that all conflict resolution between church members and members of their family had to come up and down the authority structure (wife-husband-husband-wife).

    Patriarchs lose the battle every time because they think that pulpit-pounding and Bible-thumping somehow change hearts. Instead, if there is a battle, it’s based on love and acceptance first, then allowing the Holy Spirit to work. The Pipers and Wilsons of the world have lost their belief in the Holy Spirit and instead replace his work with authoritarian pressure and shame/fear/guilt manipulation. Interesting, now that abortion-on-demand is not the primary Evangelical battlefront, the abortion rates have gone down substantially.

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  37. Piper’s drivel acts faster than real muscled-up salmonella. Anyway, the only “hill” this deceiver and his fellow deceivers would die on is Golgotha, and then it would have to be a bigger, better one with a self-righteous inscription on the fluffy cross. Workers of iniquity, one and all in that camp of whatever they think they are. Oh, IMO, as always.

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  38. Jesus: “Let me get this straight. You would die to hold onto male authority?”
    Piper: “Yes, Lord. I believe Your kingdom is founded on it, with the father at the center of the family, and the family at the center of the kingdom.”
    Jesus: “You think I died to establish a kingdom that looks exactly like the kingdom of Rome that killed Me? You think I died for human authority over other humans?”
    Piper: “Of course.”

    Hope this isn’t irreverent, but honestly, I can’t put Jesus at the center of complementarianism at all. Because what He died for is the opposite: a kingdom of service, not authority; of love, not rule. Jesus said, “Call no one among you ‘father,’ [authority figure] for you have one Father in Heaven.” We are to be brothers and sisters, not rulers and subjects.

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  39. This whole thing has left me comparing the extreme complementarians with the Jehovah Witnesses. You see, when they say The Son is eternally submitted to the Father how different is that than saying The Son has always been The Son and has never been deity?

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  40. “Patriarchs lose the battle every time because they think that pulpit-pounding and Bible-thumping somehow change hearts. Instead, if there is a battle, it’s based on love and acceptance first, then allowing the Holy Spirit to work. The Pipers and Wilsons of the world have lost their belief in the Holy Spirit and instead replace his work with authoritarian pressure and shame/fear/guilt manipulation.”- Mark

    Spot on comment, Mark.

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  41. I consider complementarians to be men who want to own a trapped bottom kissing female slave. Why doesn’t anyone call it what it is? Female slavery.

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  42. Why don’t they ever call it what it is? Great question.

    Abraham Lincoln answered that question a long time ago. He said that they will always very carefully avoid calling it wrong because once they admit that it’s wrong then they have to admit that no one has a right to do wrong.

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  43. Hi Velour,

    Thanks for asking. Yes, I knew of a couple of ladies doing research on spiritual abuse. I believe one may have completed and the other may be still plodding.
    I haven’t heard from them in awhile–just busy students completing assignments.

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  44. John Piper’s false teachings on complementarianism and submission must also apply to his own life and that of his own home. I am sure all of his siblings are happily married with no divorces, no extra marital affairs, no lusting after women within his own sphere of influence, with the end result a complete utopia.

    My comment is not intended to hurt nor offend anyone here, but rather call out the teachings, the actions, and the consequences of the teacher, John Piper. If he preaches it, then it must be modeled in his own life and the lives of his household.

    As I have observed with complementarian heretics, there is a double standard that exists between their lofty teachings and the rest of us. I am a recovering John Piper listener and I know from experience, that his teachings lead women into deep depression and a life style of hell.

    Thank God, Jesus showed me His light.

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  45. “Hi Velour,

    Thanks for asking. Yes, I knew of a couple of ladies doing research on spiritual abuse. I believe one may have completed and the other may be still plodding.
    I haven’t heard from them in awhile–just busy students completing assignments.” – Barb

    Thanks Barb.

    The student I’m thinking of had the questionnarie for people to answer. I filled it out.
    I think she was in Texas.

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  46. @ Katy

    “his teachings lead women into deep depression and a life style of hell.”

    I became suicidal because of the pro female slavery submission teachings. The wifely submission fetish is scary, demeaning, and massively hurtful, but it turns christian men on, makes them feel important and safe, so women and little girls can just tough it out.

    My father was all about wifely submission. He beat my teenage mother in her face because I cried as a sick baby, it got on his nerves. He is the one who forced her to get pregnant with me. She had no choices, it was her job to suffer to make him feel better and his life easier.

    The man who sexually abused me as a little girl, his number one obsession was wifely submission.

    Growing up in the (daddy needs and deserves a trapped @ss kissing female slave movement) made my whole childhood toxic. I never trusted, respected, liked, or could stomach Christian men being around me. I wish I never knew my pro wifely submission Christian father.

    I see men like John Piper, my father, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, Jack Schaap, Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney, and Jim Bob Duggar, as chronically unattractive loser men who are terrified of living in a world where women can tell them no, escape them, and make them feel bad about themselves.

    Of course they can make women and little girls feel bad about themselves all they want, that is a man’s right. Women’s right is to smile, keep their mouths shut, and kiss male bottom.

    Basically what they want and need to be true is the man that repeatedly raped a little girl her whole childhood is entitled to a female slave because he was born with a little girl raping penis and the little girl he repeatedly raped as a child deserves to be a trapped female slave who has to kiss male bottom all her life.

    These men are terrified of women telling them no, go away, you are not worth it. They are creepy and selfish like that.

    In complementarianism world it is always time for men to have their bottoms thoroughly kissed. It is also always time for wives and daughters to be self hating, long suffering, meek, submissive, trapped little slaves to make comp daddy and husband feel better about his needy, hyper sensitive, mean spirited, selfish, infantile, embarrassing, unwanted self.

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  47. @ChristianityHurts:

    I see men like John Piper, my father, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, Jack Schaap, Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney, and Jim Bob Duggar, as chronically unattractive loser men who are terrified of living in a world where women can tell them no, escape them, and make them feel bad about themselves.

    A variant of the “Legends in their own Mind” loser fanboys you see in gaming who are constantly bragging about their (imaginary) great deeds – type example the 90-lb (40-kilo) wet noodle who goes “I’m Really a Secret Ninja”. Like cut-rate versions of “Psalmanazar the Formosan Cannibal”.

    Or the trailer-trash rank and file of the third incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan whose only thing to brag about was their white skin — “If Ah can’ be better than an N****r, who do Ah got to be better than?

    Losers playing the Zero-Sum Game, where the only way to rise up is to stomp someone else down like lobsters in a bucket.

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  48. @Irene:

    This whole thing has left me comparing the extreme complementarians with the Jehovah Witnesses. You see, when they say The Son is eternally submitted to the Father how different is that than saying The Son has always been The Son and has never been deity?

    Irene, you are NOT the only one to notice that parallel.

    JWs have been described as “Fundamentalist Arians”. The only difference between Calvary Chapel and Kingdom Hall is theology, not behavior.

    Unfortunately, to Christianese Cult-watch groups, Theology is not Everything but the Only Thing.

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  49. They do remind me of the Ku Klux Klan. Voila, they are superior and special because they were born white. They didn’t have to do anything. Now all they have to do is remind people that they are white and white is the best.

    These complementarian men have declared themselves special and superior because they were born men. How easy to be born away so you don’t have to earn respect and power. They need things to be easy for them.

    These people need instant power and importance, because they cant earn it.

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  50. Christianity Hurts said,

    <

    blockquote>They do remind me of the Ku Klux Klan. Voila, they are superior and special because they were born white. They didn’t have to do anything. Now all they have to do is remind people that they are white and white is the best.

    These complementarian men have declared themselves special and superior because they were born men. How easy to be born away so you don’t have to earn respect and power. They need things to be easy for them.

    These people need instant power and importance, because they cant earn it.

    <

    blockquote> I agree with you, but I think today’s complementarians go further and spin their belief set because they know in the year 2017, with a lot of people (at least in nations such as the United States), that overt sexism, or favoritism towards men (and at the expense of women), does not “sell” well at all.

    Therefore, they have to market their flavor of sexism for contemporary audiences by couching it in biblical terms, to make it sound “God-approved,” and so that it does not sound so demeaning and unfair to women as it actually is.

    This is where the complementarians will chime in and say,

    “Oh gosh, we don’t think men are superior to women, shucks no! How can you say that?

    We feel that women are equal in worth to men, just not equal in role!

    God cherishes women, and God only allows women to hold certain roles in the church, like scrubbing the church’s toilets, and changing dirty diapers in the church nursery.

    And such tasks and roles – changing doody-filled diapers is so noble!

    Why, I wish I were a woman and not a man, so I too could change doo doo diapers.

    But the truly fulfilling and important roles, the preaching, and teaching, are for the men-folk only.”

    Like

  51. “they have to market their flavor of sexism for contemporary audiences by couching it in biblical terms, to make it sound “God-approved,”

    Many men who hate women and are terrified of them need a mean misogynistic bully in the sky who wants women to be trapped, hurt, enslaved, and demeaned the same ways they do. I felt like God was my pimp and I was the trapped sex slave he pimped out.

    A senior Muslim cleric in Russia said, FGM “could be applied to all women, that would be very good”

    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/russian-mufti-calls-for-genital-mutilation-of-all-women/

    Like

  52. Christianity Hurts,

    We can hear the deep pain in your voice. We believe you and appreciate you sharing those very personal experiences.

    It takes a tremendous amount of strength to resist that kind of pressure and just keep hanging in there when it feels like everything is pushing you to take your life.

    Just wanted you to know that we value your courage and hope you will continue to stand strong. As long as you’re still breathing, you’re defeating the evil that has tried to take your life.

    Like

  53. Thank you Avid Reader.

    About Doug Wilson. He talks just like the child raping pervert of my childhood. Has the same pet peeves and fetishes. I consider Doug Wilson to be the most misogynistic Christian man in America.
    He gives so much of his fetishes and insecurities away in his writings. There is no way a decent smart human being could like that sick creepy man.

    Like

  54. Back when Christianity was about Christ, the hill to die on historically was Jesus Christ………… and/or The Kingdom Way (of Christ) ie HIS Kingdom teachings of how to live.

    Like

  55. Wary Witness – He addressed me directly, pointing out that my ring was smaller than my husband’s, and saying that that symbolized my role in the relationship. I basically felt like he was belittling me for being female — on my wedding day!

    Firstly, I have to say what an appalling thing for a minister to say at any time, let alone in the middle of a wedding.

    However, you missed an opportunity to minister to him here. You could have said ‘size doesn’t matter – after all, David was smaller than Goliath’!!

    Alternatively, you could have looked at him in an adoringly Duggar fashion and said ‘I love it when you go all masterful’. Only you know whether he would have twigged the irony, or taken it as a compliment.

    Like

  56. Carrying Piper’s views to their logical conclusions, no physician should assert authority over a male orderly in deciding what should happen to a cardiac patient in the emergency room. Piper’s directive would require personal supervision over a male be disallowed. (Maybe the woman should have been a nurse’s aide instead of a physician, no matter her ability. After all, even registered nurses supervise male orderlies.) I wonder if Lydia had any men working under her? Paul should have given appropriate instructions!

    For the record, I am a firm believer in the authority of scripture, but not the wisdom of Mr. Piper. A bit of humility in applying scripture to a world very different from the world known to the one who would teach might help..

    Like

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