Complementarianism, Gender Roles, The Transformed Wife
-by Kathi
In our last book post we talked about how God’s Design turns work into a men’s only club. This seems to be a big deal among the comp crowd.
Trey posted a comment again at The Transformed Wife giving his two cents worth about why women shouldn’t be in the work place. To me, it’s only worth two cents.
Once again, Trey shows his true colors. He doesn’t offer any Biblical reasoning for why women shouldn’t work; he offers generalizations and scenarios that he thinks plays out in every work environment. He almost sounds as petty as the women he is imagining in his head. And Lori agrees with Trey only because she thinks that God designed women to be home.
Does Trey’s argument make all of you working women want to come right home?
Spiritual Sounding Board 
The oinking in the background is drowning out my thoughts…
I am single and self-supporting (teacher), but I live in a part of the country where it is almost impossible to get along on one income. My quite conservative church recognizes that most families have two breadwinners, and they do a great job of dealing with the advantages/disadvantages that can bring. I don’t know where Trey works, but he sounds like he is just a miserable co-worker. I wonder what his male colleagues think of him?
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He has described exactly none of the women I work with.
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It’s hard to comprehend the utter blindness to their own arrogant supremacist anti-female attitudes. And the women who fall under this spell are also blind. Thick deception in the name of Christ. It’s a dark and ugly power.
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P.S. I left a reply to Trey. It’s in moderation.
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Apparently no one taught him any manners if thinks ‘please and thank you’ are revolutionary concepts.
Funny, I don’t see a lot of women constantly crying around my office either. Maybe the common thread here is that Trey is prone to treating women like dirt and they’ve noticed? Wouldn’t it be interesting to hear what Trey’s coworkers say about him.
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OMG the end is priceless. We men have to talk to women ALL DAY. That’s why I can’t be even barely polite when I go home.
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All I can say is I’m glad I don’t work with this guy or worse, am married to him. He obviously doesn’t have a very wide exposure to multiple women or he wouldn’t be so quick to judge and lump all women into his various categories (i.e. do they ever shut up) Straight up mysongynistic. If it can get worse, I am incredulous that other women go along with this thinking.
In third world countries, most women have to work. They don’t have the luxury to stay at home like many privileged American women do.
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Honestly, I think it doesn’t matter whether he has had a wide exposure to women because he is, as you say, a straight up misogynist.
That please and thank you thing? You don’t tell people that if you get along, unless its jokingly. He’s probably dictating to women, as he thinks is his right and duty as a manly man, and they are calling him on it and setting rules of professional behavior.
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One other stray thought that wandered into my mind-working at home is every bit as hard as working outside the home. Just because a woman (or man) is home all day with the kids doesn’t mean that isn’t an exhausting task.
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I once worked in an office like this– where the women were constantly backstabbing. Those situations are miserable for other women too. What seemed crazy to me is that men usually made the situation worse by sleeping with someone. One girl even turned up pregnant after an office party.
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I work with a dozen women and literally none of that is true.
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Tim @ 8:28 – bet it will never see the light of day.
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Honestly, re-reading this and it’s just comedy gold. It’s literally the dumbest s— I’ve ever read. What the f— kind of ridiculous place does this guy work at? Either he’s completely delusional or he’s making the whole thing up. Or he gets in his car every morning and time-travels back to the 1950’s to work at a Catholic School for Wayward Girls or something. I mean seriously, I’m having a hard time imagining that this guy doesn’t have some kind of serious mental disorder.
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Wow. I can’t even count the number of things wrong with this comment of Trey’s.
I’ve worked in public schools most of my life. I’ve always worked with women. I’ve often worked for women. And I agree, Lea. I have encountered the kind of emotional or shrewish behaviour he depicts only on extremely rare occasions.
It’s as if he’s convinced that women don’t know how to be professional. My experience says otherwise.
If he’s allergic to common courtesy, he’d better stay far away from any job in Japan, or with the Japanese. Here, you’d better learn how to say “please” and “thank you” to your superiors at least — whether they’re male or female — unless you want to get turfed in short order.
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I have worked with men who are constantly playing games and causing trouble, too. It goes both ways. In most cases, when I’ve seen a bunch of women gang up on a man, it was because he had it comin’. I think men like Trey just want to keep women out of the way so boys can be boys, everywhere, all the time.
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Lori Alexander wrote, “Women think they’re invincible in the workforce but they aren’t.” like Supergirl or Wonder Woman? Maybe she meant “invisible”. Of corse, to find that I had to read the article. I may have learned something. As a man, that would not be right. I had a comment I nearly posted volunteering to write The Transformed Wife so I’d have productive work she’d have more time to tend to her home.
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I don’t know who Trey is, and I don’t particularly care, but he has openly insulted every woman (and not only those who are at home because God, the Creator wants us to be “busy” at home) by saying, for instance, “…causing trouble…do women ever shut up?”
And Lori Alexander agrees… Indoctrination is a strong force, and “speaking” on behalf of God is blasphemous and self-idolatrous. Whatever, Alexander; your response is one of the worst replies I have ever read.
Okay, so if you’re a single woman with dependents, or just single, or divorced (as many are on SSB), will Trey permit us to work? His filthy ideas of women are not restricted to married women, believe me.
Trey’s theology – and I really don’t care who Trey is – has blinded him and turned him into a miserable person who has zero respect for women. I pray to God that this guy is not in any relationship with a woman. Ever. Never. Let him go and sharpen iron with them other boys, and let’s see what comes from that.
And although I don’t care who or what Trey is, women in his proximity should. This dude, in my opinion, poses a danger on many levels.
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Yikes, did you see the other comments on that post? Let’s just say Trey isn’t the only stereotyping misogynist over there. Geez.
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According to Jewish sources, that’s the REAL meaning of the phrase “Taking God’s Name In Vain”.
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Unfortunately, opinions like this cannot exist without members of the public at least tacitly supporting such views. I was pretty shocked this year when Gateway Church paid John Hagee to speak at their massive New Year conference called the FIRST Conference. Not because he was a sketchy televangelist who makes money fear mongering off of fake End Times theories – I mean, that pretty much describes all of the Gateway’s Apostolic Elders (Apostles). But because they had him speak on fidelity in marriage.
Apparently, Gateway and the audience of over 30k conveniently “forgot” that Hagee was thrown out of the AOG for having an affair with one of his congregants. He then left his wife – the one he swore an oath to stay married to, till death do they part – and his two school age children, so he could marry the “other woman”. He calls his second wife his “spicy little Mexican tamale” and went on to father 3 more children with her.
But there he was, on the pulpit, receiving a hefty 5 figure speaking fee to speak for about 45 minutes – not just on marriage in general, but about FIDELITY in marriage. That sermon was peppered with sexist jokes and horrible remarks making women seem like discombobulating hormonal Tasmanian devils, during those “certain times of the month”. It was like he thought he was back in the 1960’s. It went from bad to worse.
And did any women get up and walk out? NO! The Gateway members – including the women – ate it up. They cheered him on by laughing at his sexist, inappropriate remarks, then lined up to buy his books afterwards. If any readers feel the need to be insulted or told how to stay faithful in their marriage from a man who left his wife and children for his “Spicy Tamale” church member, or just feel like taking a trip back to a redneck bar 50 years ago in a time machine, here’s the link https://gatewaypeople.com/ministries/life/events/first-conference-2017/session/2017/01/02/john-hagee-first-conference-2017
It boggles the mind, that such sexism and blatant misogyny still exists in America in the 21st Century, and is PREACHED from a pulpit. It’s simply not enough for people to quietly feel offended, queasy or be put off by such behavior. They need to speak up and walk out when this happens. It’s the only way it will stop. Badly done Gateway. Badly done.
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Tim – Don’t hold your breath waiting for that comment to get posted. I’m afraid we may need to revive you if you do.
Dave AA – Lori would probably have to defer to her husband Ken for writing in her place. Although, she has devoted entire posts to Trey’s comments before, so you might get luck with that! 😉
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I’m sure Lori would gladly promote “God’s Design” on her site and give it raving reviews of it being a book that helps parents to raise children in a godly way. This is why I thought it was important to single out Trey’s comment. Trey and those who agree with the Alexanders are the type of people who are so near-sighted that they would find “God’s Design” biblical and any other way of living outside of God’s ways and sinful.
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Kathi, I have followed Lori’s crazy blog for years. Just when I think she can get no worse-she says even more crazy and contradictory things. She will not post anything that contradicts what she believes, no matter how politely the reader treats her. Once in a while she “edits” a response so that it seems in agreement with her. The “Free Jinger Full of Snark” website follows her because of how rigid, unempathic and contradictory she behaves. It’s a form of entertainment for some people.
I think only recently she’s has gotten some male readers and she loves it, especially when they stroke her ego. She adores Michael Pearl, believes in corporal punishment for infants, believes no married woman should work if she has children-ever. If her husband has died-well God will provide. She believes that a woman should be totally submissive to her husband in all things and never divorce for ANY reason. I could continue, but anyone interested should have the “Lori” experience themselves would have to read through her blog site. Don’t get lost on the rabbit trails!
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I don’t want Lori or Trey to teach my children that women in the workplace are emotional basket cases and men are logical and stable.
Where are their statistics?
Pew Research says men aren’t doing very well in the workforce. “Labor force participation among men—particularly young men—has fallen significantly over the past several decades. In 1960, 93% of men ages 25 to 34 were in the labor force; by 2012 that share had fallen to 82%.”
At my company, the women are smart, reliable and productive. In fact one young woman increased our online sales by six figures in just one year. Was she emotional and dramatic? Yep, she was cheering and whooping when the sales started coming in.
Lori and Trey’s sexism is one more thing that drives people away from Christianity. In the Bible, there are a lot of strong women in the women who get stuff done.
As a woman, I am so happy I went into the workforce. My work has been fulfilling and life changing. We create a product that has done good worldwide.
It’s was good for me to work and touch more lives. It was a great example for my children. I wouldn’t change a thing.
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Ann – I’ve been watching Lori for quite a while, so I know how she operates. You are right in that the men who have been responding lately are stroking her ego. I’m considering getting her book to do my next book review series on here. Dear Lord, help me!
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Kathi,
Although we question whether Lori and her commenters can be legitimate, the basis of some of her “teachings” are the very foundational teachings I received and I sometimes still hear in conservative churches.
While we can and do laugh at how ridiculous it is, this life is someone’s reality and that is why it is important to post articles highlighting the behavior and challenging the teachings.
Someone will very likely read this post and comments and have an AHA moment. And sometimes they will email me, thanking us for showing them the light. By us, I mean this community, not just Kathi or me. The conversations we have here can be life changing. I don’t ever want to minimize that.
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“Someone will very likely read this post and comments and have an AHA moment.”
I certainly hope so! It’s such demeaning teaching. And, this teaching can cause unnecessary stress on families in which both need to work in order to make ends meet these days. It also doesn’t translate well into other cultures, but I know that this teaching is spread through the world as though it is gospel.
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Not to be a jerk or anything , but sometimes I wonder if guys like Trey just don’t like women because they fear the competition. You read that and the message is clear, he has a problem with women. Hopefully he is just bitter for getting passed over on a promotion, happens all the time . Literally they will tell you, ” we wanted you in there but we have to have a woman or a minority”. That gets old fast if you are a white male, hear this repeatedly through your career and worse are often asked to train the new hire to do the job. I hear this from friends that work in corporate or government constantly. This I hope may be what Trey is shaken by as my first thought was closeted homosexual married to a woman. I own a few salons and see that all the time too. My managers deal with the homo / female friction all the time. Some of those guys just hate women including their own mother.
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My comment in reply to Trey never made it out of moderation.
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Trey’s comment is an absolute insult to God who made man and woman in His own image.
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“I am hesitant to comment”…..But here I go!
I would love to see this as play. Or maybe an animated short movie so we can see the claws, the “stern talking to” face, the overly talkative voices (because women never shut up), and the drained emotional man at the end of the day from having to deal with all those women.
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Lori and her followers Trey and Dave are incredibly dangerous. For a long time, I followed her teachings faithfully trying to bring my husband, who was once a Christian but then lost his way and became abusive, back to Christ. All it did was make him more abusive to the point that my life was in danger. I have since tried to call Lori out on this, but she insists that the abuse was my fault, because I wasn’t “submissive” enough. Dave suggested that my marriage would have benefited from CDD – so although my once-loving husband got caught up in drugs and his whole personality changed to the point he treated myself and his kids badly at times and I couldn’t trust him, our marriage would be “fixed” by letting him spank me? Right ….
Lori’s teaching may sometimes be scriptural, but taken to the extremes she takes them, they’re dangerous. And Trey makes me sick. Physically sick. He clearly hates women. He has no place commenting on a blog for women.
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A man like Trey makes me wonder if his ego is that fragile that he constantly complains about how women treat him.
I commented over at Lori’s blog as well, and I’ll be surprised if she posts it. In any event, here my comment just in case it doesn’t see the light of day over there.
“Men can easily and often better replace every single job that a woman has in the workforce.”
*Lori, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. Not sure if you’ll post my comment but here goes. Last year I had to go to the hospital for a mammogram. During my conversation with the nurse she informed me that only females are hired to do her job. I was glad to hear that. I would not want a man to perform that procedure on me. Also, I am thankful that I have the choice to go to a female gynecologist. Some women may not care one way or the other, and that’s fine. I just happen to be appreciative that I have the choice of going to a female gynecologist.
I was a teacher in the public school system and observed on many occasions that women were more suited in certain areas than men. My daughter works with students with disabilities and has the demeanor and temperament to perform her job quite well. She is not married and yet has a fulfilling, enriched life. Thankfully she didn’t marry the man who claimed to be a Christian, but his life has proven otherwise. In the meantime, she has to work in order to live and eat. Women like my daughter fall through the cracks in the model you put forth. Further, Paul the Apostle elevates the single life above marriage, stating he wishes all were like him. So how are women staying home the best choice for all women all the time? I know far too many women whose circumstances dictate something other than the prescription you put forth. I’m afraid you would judge these lovely women harshly.*
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You know what? The more I’ve read Lori Alexander’s blog over the course of the past few years, the more I’m convinced that she is one angry woman. Increasingly she has become more caustic. Could it be that she hates being sick and stuck in her home so much that she envies women who are able to work outside the home?
Anyway, I think it would be a good thing if those who object to her dangerous beliefs started posting regularly on her Facebook site. She might not be able to keep up with the barrage of posts. Her beliefs need to be called out and shown for what they are, in order for those women who are naive and susceptible to listening to her are released from such brainwashing.
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All I can think of is, “this is such a First World problem”.
How she can even think this applies or is the norm for the vast majority of women all around the world is something I can not fathom!
Whole families leave their kids behind with grandparents or relatives so they can go find work in the city to support their families. Is it ideal or the best for the family? No, but how else do you survive when farming doesn’t cut it?
I can only imagine, if I told a local village woman that she shouldn’t work outside the home, how she would respond.
It’s so easy to pass this kind of judgment onto folks who are like you and live in the “First World”
I would tell her to go live in the Third World on less than $5 a day with her family and see if she can make it without working outside the home.
Ugh.
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Ugh is right! Thank you, Overseas Worker. Your illustration applies not only to Lori, but to every other American Christian “leader” who condemns women who work outside the home. Americans are so US focused, they have no clue how the rest of the world lives.
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Lori and Trey’s remarks are nothing but balderdash, especially the whining, hateful, immature comments by Trey.
I’m a single, professional woman who has worked many years in corporate business. Most of the women I have worked with are very intelligent, dedicated, resourceful, serious workers and dependable problem solvers. Women are often the staffers or leaders who hold the department together with their efforts; all the while they are making less money, and getting less credit than their male co-workers.
It’s almost Easter and that brings this to mind: Pontius Pilate’s wife, although likely an unbeliever, tried her best to convince him not to condemn Jesus. She knew it was the wrong thing for Pilate to do. But using Trey’s theory, Pilate must have had “little emotional energy left (rightly) to deal with her” and he probably was “already drained…of…emotional capacity for the day”. (end sarcasm)
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Nancy Pearcey’s “Total Truth” is a good read, and it is often panned by people like Lori. Essentially, Pearcey’s argument is that prior to the Industrial Revolution, both husband and wife (and family, often) had to share in the work that had to be done, to survive. The family kept the farm running, the family managed the store, whatever the occupation was, the family contributed to that in the ways they could.
However, in the Industrial Revolution, the men had to leave the house to work at the factory (sometimes children as well, which led to child labor laws). What happened was peculiar. Christianity had to justify this family separation, not as a necessary evil, but as the “way things ought to be”(TM). So, then it was a good thing that men left the home for work and that the wife and children should stay home. There became a division of labor where the man was the “breadwinner” and the woman was the “home keeper”, and cherry-picked verses came out to justify what that was what God intended all along.
Now that we are post Industrial Revolution and the economic growth has primarily been in the knowledge work and service industries, it’s fascinating that the church has tried to double-down on a mindset that was invented 200-300 years ago.
I find it fascinating how many of the “God’s design” stuff was invented in the last 300 years, and completely out of sync with where the church was generally throughout history.
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Wow; that does sound really bitter! Yes, there are people in the workforce who are more difficult, but it is not limited to gender. I live in Canada, and have known many people who are somewhat recent immigrants from India, the Philippines, Nigeria, China, and so on. I worked in fast food for 6 years, and there was drama from some males, and some females. And yet there were both genders who were good to work with. Language barriers is one of the biggest challenges, which takes patience that not everyone has, or can learn, and a consistent saying “please and thank you” are caught more than taught. More so from the recent immigrants I’ve trained.
I currently work with all men. There are some jobs that don’t get done when I’m not there. Reading this, I asked one guy, “is this me?” and he laughed and said no.
Most women just want to do what they can to support themselves, and their families as applies. It’s sad that a few drama queens have to ruin this for everyone.
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From the main article: “Camille Paglie wrote, “Only a tiny number of women want to enter the trades where most of the nitty-gritty physical work is actually going on—plumbing, electricity, construction. … Last year in a nearby town, I drove by a huge, chaotic scene where emergency workers in hazmat suits were struggling with a giant pipe break, as raw sewage was pouring into the street. Of course all those workers up to their knees in a torrent of thick brown water were men! I’ve seen figures indicating that 92 per cent of people killed on the job are men—and it’s precisely because men are heroically doing most of the dangerous jobs in modern society.”
Our society couldn’t operate without men! They are the ones that God has given the muscle mass, testosterone, and strength to accomplish many things women cannot do but need.”
As a career firefighter/paramedic – I object to this. I was darn good at my job. I had to train extra-hard, learn to work smarter (not harder) in ways to complement my frame where brute strength lacked, earn the respect of my brothers, put in my time on the streets and in the crew cab – just like them.
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OK, I’m probably beating a dead horse here, but . . .
It drains Trey’s emotional energy to say Please and Thank You at the workplace? Really?
So Please and Thank You are now unmanly? Really?
Trey is reinforcing the anti-man sitcom stereotype of men being a bunch of rude, dumb brutes (which of course most men are not).
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I’ve never encountered women like he describes in the workplace. The ones who caused such disruption were let go rather quickly. There was one quick to cry young lady whose boss couldn’t bring himself to fire her despite her poor work performance, but she pretty much stayed to herself and only made his job more difficult, not ours.
I have worked with men who were sexual harassers, disruptive, and constantly causing drama, but that hardly makes me think that men should all stay home just because some behave impossibly.
It’s interesting that research is showing more and more how much women in leadership contribute to the success of companies, especially when women are not pressured to “behave like a man” but are empowered to find their own style of leadership. It seems that collaboration and cooperation is far more valuable than people realized, and those are skills that more women managers tend to have.
My own work experience was that my women coworkers tended to have more of a team approach, wanting to work together to get the job done well. Male coworkers tended to be more individualistic and competitive, and more concerned with getting credit and recognition for their efforts. That’s a generality, of course, and some of it might have to do with the type of workplace culture.
Just a few of my rambling thoughts…
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Darlene, several months ago Lori posted a very controversial Facebook article and got a couple hundred negative responses. In fact a few social media outlets (Us?) interviewed her. She was ecstatic about the publicity and made herself out to be a martyr for Christ. So-your idea unfortunately backfired. She has no empathy or insight into her reader’s problems.
I know she has had several operations on her brain and wonder if the surgeries have compromised some of her thought processes and emotions. If that is the case, her husband needs to reason with her to stop for her own sake. If I am not mistaken, she was told by her church that she could not ‘mentor’ young women in the congregations. I wish someone who knows her would respond here and explain what Lori and Ken are really like.
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In regard to the “please” and “thank you” comment…Don’t we teach our children that it is polite to say please and thank you? Why is it rude when an adult is asked to be polite?
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There is another comment on that post where a woman talks about how she is working part-time to help make ends meet. She wants to be home, but her husband wants her to work. Lori tells her to pray that God will convict him to change his mind. Lori is offering advice that goes against what the husband is asking the wife to do. Yet Lori thinks that wives should submit to their husbands. Why does she want him to change his mind if that is what he wants?
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Oh…Darlene!!! She wrote a post about your comment!
https://thetransformedwife.com/judging-working-women-harshly/
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Kathi: Ha! Not sure if it’s a waste of my time to respond or not. She lives in a box with a cute, tied up little bow, and sings the same one-note song.
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She had someone ask if a single woman should live off welfare. Lori said, yes, if she doesn’t have a church or family to help her. I went on her FB page and told her that someone can’t live off welfare forever and eventually she would need to get a job. Which led to her response of, oh…there’s so much someone can do at home on the internet…she needs to be home. I told her that her one-size-fits-all teaching doesn’t work for everyone. Seriously…she is singing a one-note song and cant’ even fathom to think that someone else could possibly live differently.
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Wait, seriously???
Why, so men won’t be forced to say please and thank you and be too tired of dealing with girl cooties all day to be polite to their wives? Pass.
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“I wish someone who knows her would respond here and explain what Lori and Ken are really like.”
Ann, if anyone reads Lori’s blog as well as the comment section where Ken responds – they will get a pretty good idea of what they are like. Not long ago, Lori wrote a blog post entitled, Does Submitting to Husbands in Everything Mean Everything? The comment section lit up with Crazy Dave saying wives should submit to their husbands no matter what. No excuses period! Even if he tells her to harm their children. At first, Ken disagreed. But then as the discussion wore on, he tried to find a way to interpret Crazy Dave’s comments in a good light. This is what he said:
“If I understand Dave’s comments, it is much like what Michelle expressed. At least within a Christian marriage a husband would not ask his wife to sin. Some see this verse as consistently doable if God asks the wife to do it, and the husband who asks his wife to sin is a hypothetical that muddies the passage and not a reality.
I must say that in my 30 years of counseling I cannot recall a husband asking a wife to sin, but I have seen a wife telling her husband to sin. I am not saying that it doesn’t happen as it surely does, but the big problem of interjecting the “what ifs” into the scriptures is that once exceptions are made too many (meaning the wife, of course) will want to broaden the exceptions of “for sin only” to “and I get to decide (meaning the wife, of course when it is sin or not sin.”
(Interjection here. This was Michelle’s comment: “When it came time to get married, submitting to my husband was and is easy because I know that he would never put me in harms way and cause me to sin. Will he lead me to a place that is uncomfortable or correct me when I need, yes absolutely but cause harm or sin, never.” Never? Is her husband sinless like Jesus?
Anyhow, it is clear to see from Ken’s words that he is employing Double-Speak. On the one hand, the wife shouldn’t submit if the husband tells her to sin. On the other hand, by bolstering Crazy Dave’s and Michelle’s views, he posits that in a Christian marriage a husband wouldn’t ask his wife to sin. We all know how absurd such a notion is because we’ve seen too many examples to the contrary. On the one hand he says he’s sure there are cases where the husband tries to get the wife to sin, but in ALL HIS 30 YEARS OF COUNSELING, he has never once seen this to be the case! Imagine the confirmation bias that exists whenever Ken counsels husbands and wives. He automatically assumes the wife is the one sinning, because in all his 30 years, he has only ever seen this to be the case.
Further, while he will say the wife shouldn’t submit to her husband if he wants her to sin, he then goes on to imply who gets to say what is sin and not sin? Of course he is implying that it isn’t the wife who gets to decide; it’s the husband who decides. After all, he is her Head. So then how in the world is she supposed to not submit when the husband expects her to sin, and yet at the same time she cannot determine what is, and is not sin? Ken actually goes so far to state that others would say that “God would enter into that moment to rescue the wife based on her faith.” Remember when Paige Patterson told that wife to go back to her physically abusive husband and pray for him by the bedside, and in so doing she was beat up and came to church the next day with a black eye? Why didn’t God keep her from getting punched in the face? Maybe because God can’t work with people who are determined to follow idiotic beliefs! Anyhow, Ken and Lori’s views are dangerous, BIG TIME. The views stated on Lori’s blog are why I have become a strong opponent of Patriarchy.
Kathi, please do a book review on Lori’s The Transformed Wife. The more Christian women that can learn about and understand their harmful teachings on submission, the better.
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This is what I am going to do. I will merely ask Lori if she is interested in hearing any of my responses to her blog post. If she has no interest, I won’t even bother to put out the effort to respond. There’s no point if she isn’t going to post what I have to say.
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Done. We’ll see if she takes me up on my offer.
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Okay, Darlene…You twisted my arm! I went ahead and bought The Transformed Wife. About the only thing I regret about my purchase is that $$ is going to Lori, so I went with the cheaper Kindle option. 😉
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If you look at people with emotional problems that lead to violence, it’s clear that the majority are men.
Men do 97% of mass shootings.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476445/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-gender/
Men make up more than 90% of the prison population.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/252828/number-of-prisoners-in-the-us-by-gender/
It concerns me that Trey is so deeply upset by women working outside the home.
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I’m not exactly awake as I type this – I need to turn in soon.
Regarding Trey’s comments in the OP.
In my time at a full time job in an office setting, neither biological sex fits neatly into the categories Trey has described.
We had both male and female drama queens at the office.
One male co-worker of mine had “thin skin.” He’d go around making jokes – sometimes ones rather mean-spirited or sexually tinged – and expect everyone to find them amusing.
He’d get upset when or if a co-worker would tell him his brand of humor was off putting or offensive.
However, when myself or other co-workers would tell “G-rated” jokes at this co-worker’s expense (ones meant with affection, they were not mean-spirited), he’d have a hissy fit and temper tantrum and threaten to report us to Human Resources for harassment.
My ex fiance’ (let’s call him “Ted”) never, ever shut up. Ted talked non-stop during our several years of engagement.
I was raised by my “June Cleaver” Christian mother (who was a gender complementarian) to be polite and respectful at all times, and to put my needs last.
This translated into me doing things such as listening to my fiance’ “Ted” talk all the time and wait and hope he would inquire about me and ask me how my day was going – which he never did.
My mother raised me to think that me talking about me was selfish or wrong, so I should sit back and wait for “Ted” (or whomever I was with) to ask me about me before I could talk about me.
Can you guess what happened? In the several years I dated this self absorbed weenie (Ted), he never once inquired about me.
Ted show NO INTEREST in my job, dreams, fears, hobbies, or opinions. I sat and listened to Ted give a “Johnny Carson-esque” mono-logue about himself for several years in a row.
I had a male co-worker or two at one full-time professional job who out-talked myself and other women.
So much for Trey’s theory that women out-talk men.
BTW, studies I’ve read show that either men and women talk at the same rate, or women only slightly use more words per day than men, or men out-talk women! (Studies also show that men interrupt women more often than vice versa)
You can look up lots more studies like this on-line:
_Study Finds No Difference in the Amount Men and Women Talk_
When Trey complains that women aren’t direct or cry and get upset with him or other males in the office when approached with direct communication: hey, genius, women have been conditioned by sexists such as you to behave in that very manner!
It’s sexists such as Trey and the woman who host that blog (Lori Alexander) who teach women it’s wrong and “un- lady- like” for women and girls to be direct, out-spoken, and assertive, which means girls learn at a young age to “dance around” and “beat around the bush” when asking for what they need or want.
Women are conditioned by secular culture and Christian gender complementarians such as Lori Alexander to be indirect in communication, because to be direct and assertive is considered a “masculine” trait and hence un-feminine for a woman.
Women who communicate directly and assertively will be told by Christian patriarchalists and gender complementarians that they are “acting like men” and to “stop acting like men.”
In the United States, both in and out of Christian environments, men and women are conditioned to believe it’s NOT acceptable for men to express emotion openly (exception: anger), but it’s feminine and acceptable for women to express emotion openly (such as sadness, crying).
So people such as Trey and Lori Alexander create and encourage the VERY TRAITS and the VERY BEHAVIORS in women and girls that they turn around and complain about later. Trey and Lori, you are absolute hypocrites.
Good ol’ Trey there at that other blog can take his limited experience with women and his offensive sexist stereotypes and cram them where the sun don’t shine.
Do you know why I’m able to be so open and tell Trey to kiss off? Because I no longer buy into the sexist, gender complementarian trash that he and L. Alexander promote on her blog. I know it’s okay for me to speak my mind now and be assertive now.
However, in a double bind, no doubt, Trey and Lori will now say I’m not being “feminine.”
Women cannot win in their world view, no matter if they are out-spoken -OR- demure.
Here I am Trey, iron sharpening your iron!
(Ironically, I’ve read that L.A. will not approve of posts such as this to appear on her blog or Facebook page, ones that push back and are critical.)
By the way, society is what it is. There is no turning back the clock. Women can and do work outside the home now, whether Trey likes it or not, and it sounds like he’s suffering.
Some women must work out of the home out of necessity to pay their rent and bills either because they are single or their husband is disabled in some way.
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_Why Women Talk Less Than Men at Work_
– from Time magazine’s “Money” column
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By Mark:
The Increasing Significance of the Decline of Men – New York Times, March 2017
From that article:
The article goes on like that, addressing family, divorce, marriage, other subjects. One of the main take aways is that women are better suited for the new economy in some regards than men are.
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Kathi asked,
Because maintaining the talking points of the sexism of Gender Complementarianism is more important, even if it sort of contradicts other premises of Lori’s beliefs.
In her world, it’s God’s design that women stay at home and raise kids while the husband has an out- of- the- house job. That is so even if the husband in question doesn’t mind if the wife wants a job outside the home.
The husband needs to step in line and follow the Party Line, Lori thinks.
LOLOLOL.
So glad I left the world of complementariainsm years ago. It’s such a crazy-maker.
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Quoting Kathi:
Lori is out of touch with reality.
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Darlene quoting some guy (Ken?):
Ken is so wrong it’s not funny how wrong Ken is.
God seldom supernatually intervenes in situation. Not just in abusive marriage, but other areas of life.
My mother is still dead in a coffin, in spite of all my prayers, and the prayers of others, that God would heal her of cancer. Several of my other prayers to God have gone unanswered as well – no rescues of me by God.
One reason God gave women brains and an ability to think on their own is so that they can make choices for themselves (not rely on a husband to tell them what is sin or what is not sin, etc) so they can practice boundaries and either stand up to an abusive / jerk / self-absorbed husband or divorce his pathetic butt if they feel that is the best or safest recourse for them.
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Daisy, that guy Ken is Ken Alexander, Lori’s husband.
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And when you get direct about something they don’t want to talk about they tend to get irritated. (I tend towards both direct and indirect communication depending on the situation)
Darlene, that Ken quote…you’d have to ask him what he thinks is ‘sin’. When you start off thinking that anything that contradicts or displeases the male in the relationship is ‘sin’ on the part of the female, it’s not surprising you ‘never’ see men sinning or asking their wives to sin but you see it from women all the time.
Ken and Lori need to climb back into a deep dark hole and never be heard from again. It is shocking that people treat them seriously.
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That NY Times OpEd article was very insightful. What struck me was this:
In a 2015 paper, “The Growing Importance of Social Skills in the Labor Market,” Deming writes:
He goes on to say that women have better social skills than men, therefore they do increasingly better in the workplace.
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Oh men talk plenty where I work, about their bracket, sports in general, their cars, their hobbies. No wonder Trey’s all talked out when he gets home.
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I wanted to stop by so I could very loudly agree with Mark’s comment above concerning the Industrial Revolution. I just finished reading “Women in the Days of the Cathedrals” by Regine Pernoud. Women throughout the Middle Ages worked alongside their husbands. Their husbands would often take point on the shop or whatever while the wife would be nursing the kids, but all in all, the father was home. If your husband were a blacksmith, you, as his wife, would learn his trade. If you became widowed, you could take over the shop to support your children. Queens had real power back then to command troops and male servants, negotiate treaties, etc., even though their husbands were at home. When their husbands left on a Crusade, they were fully in charge. (Sometimes they even went with them on the Crusade!) All women could manage their own finances. Their dowries could be shared by their husbands, but could not be sold without their permission, and was theirs to keep upon divorce from bed and board.
It wasn’t just the Industrial Revolution, however, that began to demolish this arrangement. The increasing reliance on all things Roman and Greek, especially in areas of law, began to take away from women the professions they had traditionally engaged in (including unmarried women). For example, women could no longer be doctors or barbers. Universities excluded women. The law began to take their dignity from them and turned them into perpetual children. This trend came to full fruition in the Renaissance, and culminated in ferocity in the nineteenth century. Queens by and large became accessories to their kings, sort of like lip stick. They lost any real power. It was in this height of oppression towards women that first wave feminism began.
While we have come a long way to reclaim what we have lost, due to the Industrial Revolution, we’ll probably never get back everything (like having our husbands at home, and being able to learn their trade so that we can survive if we’re widowed).
I second (third? fourth? fiftieth?) that no one should try to Biblicize what is simply our society trying to cope with the reality of jobs being located away from our homes. (And need I remind anyone that Medieval Europe consisted of Christian nations, even if nominally? If women could work then and manage their own finances, own property, etc., then why can’t we?)
P.S., At my workplace (engineering), there isn’t too terribly much drama from the women. It’s very rare. I’ve seen just as much backbiting and gossip from the men. One of my coworkers once witnessed a guy publicly yelling at his male coworker (which we both agreed was unacceptable behavior in the workplace). I also concur with Serving Kids in Japan. We’ve had training offered to us for Japanese culture so that we don’t accidentally offend our Japanese customer. If Trey can’t handle a simple “please” and “thank you”, he would never be able to handle a Japanese businessman.
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No kidding. Seriously, in that situation, God DOES provide. It’s called a “job”.
I know a very old lady at church with no family who HAS TO WORK to survive. It’s not like she wouldn’t like to stay at home at her age. Sheesh. This guy doesn’t live in the real world. Or, well, I guess he does, but he pretends he’s living somewhere else in his little fantasy realm.
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Pure misogyny. The men and women he works with probably both think he’s a jerk.
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I am office manager at a highly-functioning office with none of the situations this guy talks about. Five of us are women, two are men. We all respect one another, work quietly and professionally, and get along just fine. Just because his own workplace is dysfunctional, is no reason to blame it all on women.
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This is going to be a bit lengthy but I’m posting it here in the event that Lori Alexander wipes it clean from her Facebook page. The following is my response to her. Lori’s quotes from her blog will be in bold.
I am the woman whose post you were responding to, Lori. I had hoped you would be willing to interact with me on your blog, but since I’m in “moderation” over there, I’ll respond here to some of your statements.
“I am teaching biblical principles to women who love the Lord and His ways…..I look at the Word and what it says, then teach what I learn from it, not from my opinions.”
I’d posit that you interject quite a few of your opinions. You have an opinion for every Christian woman out there as to how they should live according to your rigid views that allow no exceptions. It says in the Bible: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.” No exceptions…nada. So, if a man becomes ill with a fatal disease and becomes disabled, sorry fella – you must starve. That would be an example of rigid interpretation. And by the way, you had better be telling all those Christian women out there to be wearing head coverings to church otherwise they are disobeying Paul.
I find it interesting that you and your husband offer a qualifier for a wife not submitting to her husband, i.e. – if he sins, but you offer none whatsoever for a woman when it comes to getting married and having children. Sorry Amy Carmichael and Lottie Moon – you weren’t living according to God’s will. Women missionaries – each and everyone of you is abandoning God’s will for you, which is to purposefully, and as soon as possible find a husband and bear children. The wife/mother who finds herself widowed at a young age – yes, I’m familiar with more than one – you would dare to criticize if she must go out and work. The woman whose husband becomes disabled – yes, I know of more than one – you would dare criticize if she must go out and work. The woman who has no desire to marry but has a passion to serve others in her profession – you would dare to criticize. The wife/mother whose cheating husband has left her – yes, I’ve known women like this – you would dare criticize if she must go out and work. The woman whose husband struggles to bring in enough money to support the household because they live in an area that has a high cost of living – you would dare criticize if she must go out and work. Whether you like it or not, there are far more exceptions than you care to admit, and your attitude toward those women is disrespectful and lacking compassion.
Then to bolster your view that all women should seek marriage and children ASAP, you quote Nancy Wolgemuth (formerly DeMoss):
“But the priority that God places on the home-this passage assumes that young women will be wives and mothers…..There’s an assumption that young women will get married and have children. At the risk of being truly politically incorrect, could I say this is God’s norm?….that as a rule young people are to be purposeful about getting married and having children.”
Except the woman who gave that advice, Nancy Wolgemuth, didn’t follow her own advice. She married at 57 years of age and never had children. I find that ironic, that the woman you revere, went against your views for most of her adult life, and neglected her most important calling: that of being a wife and mother. It seems that Nancy W. missed out on God’s “perfect plan” for her life – your words on that very post, not mine. Apparently though, for some reason you’re fine with Nancy W. being one of those exceptions, while any others that are mentioned on your blog you dismiss or make light of. Now, as far as I’m concerned, I have no problem with Nancy W. waiting to get married and not having children.
To be continued…..
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The following is the rest of my response to Lori Alexander on Facebook.
Next, you criticize me for wanting to have a female gynecologist and a female nurse perform a mammogram on me. You stated:
“Essentially you are saying that it is more important for you to have female nurses and doctors rather than their children having them home full time with them to raise, care, and train them?…..You see I am sure God wants women at home because He cares a whole lot more about marriages being strong and children having a mother home full time with them to raise, nurture and train them than for you to have female nurses and doctors.”
I thought you were only concerned with “women who love the Lord.” So, what concern is it of yours what women do who are not Christians? And you have the audacity to say you are sure you know what God’s will is for all these women, some you don’t even know and may not even be Christians? Further, you assume a lot in that statement. One of those female physicians of which I speak isn’t married – just like Nancy W. wasn’t for the majority of her adult life. The other one has no children at home. Secondly, your comment to me is rude and condescending – as if it is a selfish desire that would take women away from God’s calling for them. It was an attempt to lay a guilt trip on me for not agreeing with your rigid views. It isn’t your right or your business to be telling all women in the workforce what they should be doing, especially women that don’t claim to be Christians. That’s hubris on your part.
“I had a male gynecologist who delivered my four children and he was fine. He delivered many babies and was very competent.”
What was/is fine for you is not necessarily the case for all women. You are not the standard for what is best for all women. Certainly not for me.
“Remember, I’m not trying to solve all the world’s problems. I am simply teaching godly women what God wants me to teach them.”
Then perhaps you should leave all of those other women out of your teachings. You know, like the exception rule that you gave Nancy Wolgemuth. Was she a godly woman all the time that she avoided getting married and having children? And all those other women in the workforce who aren’t even Christians – their professional choices should be none of your concern.
“Yes, there are some who indeed want to spend their lives serving the Lord, but it’s few. By the way, it’s not my “prescription.” It’s God’s prescription and if any women feel judged by it, they will have to take it up with the Lord since I didn’t write the Bible!”
I don’t know if you realize how arrogant you sound. You completely side-swiped my reference to Paul elevating the single life above marriage, reiterating that marriage and bearing children is the most important calling for women. How do you know how many people are called to serve the Lord as singles? Or to go on the mission field as doctors and nurses to serve the needs of others and to love their neighbor? Sadly, you assume you know the will of God for the majority of women, and in so doing, you insult and denigrate those women who don’t follow your interpretation of the Scripture.
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Stuffing nonsense
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Excellent comments, Darlene! Excellent!!!
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Brava, Darlene! Brava!!!
Sadly, I don’t see your comment on her FB page. Which is too bad considering that she wrote that post in response to your comment, yet she won’t let you comment to answer her critique. Such a shame.
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Great response, Darlene! Love how you crushed that faulty logic point by point.
Just wanted to add that according to Lori’s twisted logic—-Corrie Ten Boom totally missed Gods plan for her life by never marrying or having children and working outside the home! And forget about all the people that came to know the Lord through the powerful ministry of Gladys Alyward. The one hundred children she rescued from a brutal life on the streets would have continued to suffer the unthinkable if she hadn’t obeyed the call of God on her life to pour out her life overseas.
That kind of logic sounds like the Devils war on women that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Ever since the devil has tried to attack, kill, steal, and destroy women because he knows how powerful we are and how totally unstoppable we become when we develop the gift of God inside of us.
Remember Gods promise was that the seed of the woman (Jesus) would crush the head of the serpent.
Then Jesus said,
“Look, I have given you the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy; nothing will ever harm you.”
Luke 10:19 (BSB)
“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”
Romans 16:20 (BSB)
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Lori is a cowardly woman. She shoots from afar on her blog, a nice, safe place from which she can criticize those who disagree with her. Yet, she avoids direct interaction with those she claims are wrong. This is a woman who lives in fear of anyone shattering her rigid views on gender roles – cognitive dissonance at work.
Avid Reader: I wish I had mentioned Corrie Ten Boom and her sister, Betsy. Corrie spoke to audiences all over the world, men and women. And honestly, having remembered the 70’s and 80’s, I think the Evangelical church is more obsessed with gender roles in our current day than back then. The extremists back then were mostly the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches, and the sexist cults. Yes, there was a kind of soft Complementarian view going around back then, but it wasn’t as rigid as it is becoming now – stressing gender roles in an attempt to control both women and men. Now, however, the Conservative, Patriarchal wing within Evangelicalism is becoming pervasive and spreading out into the Evangelical church at large. They are doubling down on this issue, making it equally important as the Gospel itself. They are reacting against society at large, out of an intense fear that the women within their churches will be led astray. So now is the time, more than ever, for them to wield their clobber verses in an attempt to silence their opponents.
I think the increasing influence of the Neo-Calvinists has played a large role in this phenomenon, which can be clearly seen in their successes to take over the SBC and all its entities (churches, seminaries, Lifeway, NAMB, etc.) as well as other denominations such as the Evangelical Free Church . The Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel, along with their barrage of conferences, book sales, and videos has enabled them to proliferate their views to an even wider audience. They are intentional in their goal to spread their Patriarchal views, and their modus operandi is that the ends justify the means.
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Guess what? I just went to Lori’s Facebook page – The Transformed Wife and my comment is still up. Knowing how much Lori dislikes push back and disagreement, I’m wondering if she has even noticed it. It’s under the post titled Judging Working Women Harshly?
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Lori would, I guess, say that people like Corrie were the exception to the rule or something, but YOU are not the exception, because she says so. Or soemthing.
Ithink the ifb types have taken over. Wasn’t piper ifb? That’s the problem here. They ran out all the moderates and they had no balance left. Bad idea.
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I’m not sure if Piper was ever IFB or not, but my former pastor at the IFB church that I used to be a member of used to quote Piper a lot. He used to quote him on the topic of “male leadership” and a variety of other topics.
The IFB has a lot of problems, but it was ultimately their un-Christ-like attitude towards women and their harsh teachings on child discipline that tipped the scales enough to make us leave. Oh, and the fact that some of the other men in the church looked down on my husband because he is a stay-at-home dad. He’s more of a man than they will ever be.
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I have to wonder exactly what gospel Trey and Lori follow in their theological minds, for it isn’t the Gospel of Jesus Christ that I believed which led to my conversion during a difficult time working under so called ‘Christian men.’
Trey, if you are reading this blog, I have an invitation for you that may help you understand the freedom and liberty we have in Jesus Christ, as well as the “there is no male or female in Christ Jesus”…..you are cordially invited to come and help me on our farm…..spring planting is soon upon us and there are loads upon loads of rocks to be picked, the old fashioned way – by hand. I would love to work with you (and Lori Alexander as well), and educate you both on the genderless jobs we are required to do……working by the sweat of our brows in getting the job done, men and women side by side! My tractor and rock wagon do not care whether a man or a woman drives it, and the rocks particularly do not care either, for they are non-gender specific. All of the implements I operate do not have the capacity to judge the man or woman operating us, for all are taught to respect the equipment as well as the male and female co-workers in our farming business.
I am reminded of Lydia (among other worthy women) in our Holy Scriptures……shame on that merchant woman! Oh, for shame……and God, the Holy Spirit, specifically names her without condemnation. Thankfully, our Father who art in Heaven, knows best! Praise Him!
Praying for you Trey, and Lori as well, for your words are deeply troubling. Growing up on the farm, our sheep didn’t care whether a male or female fed them (in this type of “workplace,” and Jesus, our true Shepherd, doesn’t care either, which gender shares His Glorious Gospel.
Thank-you for opportunity to post here, Julie Anne. The missionary field is wide open.
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Thank-you, Darlene, for your response. I just read it and consider it brilliant!
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Katy – Rocks are non-gender specific. LOL! Thank you for the Monday morning smile!
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You are welcome Kathi! As you can probably estimate via my comments, I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept of men verses women taught within the apostate religious forum.
Word of caution; I don’t wear a skirt, panty hose, low cut tops, big jewelry and my beehive hair-do into the workforce/fields. In fact, I’m adorned with ragged jeans, shirts full of holes which serve as my mini bucket for picking up the smaller rocks, worn tennis shoes and a red neck bandana wrapped around my forehead to keep the hair out of my eyes so I can see those rocky horrors that can do immense damage to the internals of our combines during harvest season. Yea, real glamorous.
I recently had a ‘religious man – a pillar in his church system by the way,’ set foot on my doorstep and mockingly state, “I would never have my wife drive a tractor or truck on our farm. She is a teacher, receiving her degree from _________ Bible College.” Direct quote verbatim. A short mini prayer with my soul asking God, the Holy Spirit to guide me in speaking truth in love, and a minute later, was sharing my testimony with this man, whose sneering ugly face was being washed away. My life was not easy during those times of learning how to operate the trucks, farm implements, and working under complementarian men, in fact, my life was engulfed in pure hell as I was not treated with respect nor love, living amongst church going Christians to boot!
This man’s mocking face turned to softness with tears filling his eyes, and the words that followed were shocking! He said, “Do you want to know something? I really struggle with pride. I admit it, pride fills my life and I need to work on that.” Quote verbatim. I was stunned! Before he left our farm, this man was encouraging me in my farm work and said that he would pray for me in keeping safe and sound in my workplace.
Our LORD never ceases to amaze me, as I walk these gravel roads here in no man’s land, pondering His goodness, mercy and grace. If there’s a job to do, whether woman, man, or child, do it all unto the Glory of our LORD, regardless of where He is leading us!
Warning: And since I am still a human being, saved by Jesus, alone, for my salvation, I cannot deny the fact, that for a split second, I wanted to take this man down and tape his mouth shut…..I’m pretty handy with an expensive, high quality roll of duct tape!
Blessings.
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Katy – That is a great story! Well, I too have a Bible college degree and a master’s degree and I wasn’t too proud to take a houskeeping job at a nursing home for a short while. We needed the extra income and it was a job. I gained such an appreciation for labor workers who earn minimum wage because it was one of the hardest jobs I’ve ever done in my life.
You keep doing what you need to do for you and your family. I think that God offers more grace than human kind ever will and he does not even blink an eye when a mother needs to work outside the home to help provide for her family.
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Darlene said,
Complementarians / Patriarchalists such as Lori don’t stop to realize that not all women want to marry or can marry, even if they do want to.
I was engaged but broke up with my ex for many reasons. I remain single into my 40s. I may never marry.
I never felt like it was a duty to marry. God never orders any one to marry and says in 1 Corinthians 7 that it is better to stay single (does Lori have 1 Cor 7 in her Bible?). I believe it’s that same passage or elsewhere that Apostle Paul also wrote it’s better to remain celibate (“it’s better not to touch a woman”), and hence, remain childless.
I am not going to marry unless I find a compatible guy. I am certainly not going to marry just any old guy just for the sake of being married.
Had I married my ex fiance’, we would have been divorced in no time at all. The guy (my ex) was seriously stupid, irresponsible, self-absorbed block head.
Had I married my ex, I can say that due to his irresponsibility and stupidity, ironically, I would’ve had to been the “head” in the marriage and make all the decisions, because Dumbo (my ex) would’ve messed up our finances, sent in checks to pay off bills late (resulting in eviction notices, late charges, etc).
I would’ve been naked, homeless, and living in a box under a bridge somewhere had I married that Bozo (unless I became the leader in the marriage and took over ALL responsibilities). No thank you to either scenario, LA (Lori Alexander).
Thank you, Darlene, for correcting LA’s awful, sexist, hurtful gender theology. Thank you for reminding her that not all women can or want to fit into her idea of womanhood.
(By the way, some women either do not want to have children – they commonly go by the phrase “child free” – or, they or their spouse are infertile and are unable to have children. One wonders what insensitive or shaming drivel she says to them?)
Not all women can or want to fit into LA’s box of what it means to be a woman. I get more and more annoyed the older I get at Christians who insist their interpretation of the Bible (which is their opinion) is the Bible itself.
Really, LA is taking her interpretation of the biblical text (which is an incorrect one – and really, it does come down to HER OPINIONS and assumptions about gender, marriage, culture, etc) and assuming it’s correct and then shames or lectures other women who don’t agree with it or who don’t fit her ideals.
I used to be a gender complementarian myself – no longer.
But I was at least willing back when I was a complementarian to consider that maybe my understanding of the Bible was wrong, which is one piece of the puzzle that helped me see how wrong (and un-biblical) complementarianism actually is.
I’m afraid LA’s going to likely remain stuck in her Bubble of Complementarianism / Patriarchy until she is willing to consider her interpretation may be wrong.
She may also have to under-go some major painful life event that will shake up her current paradigm of God, life, the Bible, and other issues.
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Darlene quoted LA (Lori A.) as saying,
So many assumptions here.
How does LA know that the female doctor has kids or wants any?
Maybe the lady doctor doesn’t have kids – whether due to choice or circumstance. And either one is okay. It’s not LA’s place to say “the Bible says God prefers all women to marry and have kids.” That is not what the text says. She’s reading her views about culture, marriage, women, etc, back into the text.
If the lady doctor is married with a kid, maybe the doctor and her husband have an arrangement that the husband will be a “stay at home dad” and raise the kids while the wife goes off to the office daily? All of which is fine. It’s not LA’s place to shame this couple for their arrangement.
For the record, back when I had gyno exams, I saw a lady docto (I deliberately chose a woman doctor for that) because I am very modest about stuff like that.
I hate gyno stuff, but if I have to go, I’m more comfortable with a lady looking at my “hoo-hah” than some dude. (That’s just me personally. I know other women wouldn’t care either way if the doc was male or female.)
Darlene, where LA says this:
Depending on what LA means by that: she is incorrect.
As of the year 2014, in the United States, single adults now out-number married couples.
You can Google that information and find a million articles and studies on that.
Here is just one:
For the first time, there are more Single American Adults than Married Ones
– (from Washington Post, Sept 2014)
There are now more singles than married people, so the marrieds are “in the few,” not the singles, as she assumes.
Also, depending on how she meant this remark-
“Yes, there are some who indeed want to spend their lives serving the Lord, but it’s few.”
–No, I did not want to be single into my 40s.
I had expected and hoped to have been married by my 30s, at the latest. But I’m in my 40s and have never married.
Not all women who are single into their 40s (and older) are single due to CHOICE, because they wanted to “serve the Lord,” or because they were too career focused (as is the assumption many conservatives make)> Many of us had expected to marry and have no idea why we are still single.
Also, does being married in her world mean that marrieds don’t have to “serve the Lord” -?
I see from her further quotes, as provided by you, that she continues to confuse her (wrong) interpretation of the Bible with the Bible itself.
She continues to assume her incorrect understanding of what the Bible says is what “God wants” for women. Barf.
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And does Lori consider that there are plenty of conservative Christian women who “love the Lord” and yet who totally disagree with her interpretation of the Bible regarding gender, marriage, child care, and so forth?
Some of those women can be found writing articles at “Christians for Biblical Equality” or sites such as _“Junia Project”_.
This touches on another grating thing for me. Ever since I’ve been having a faith crisis, I’ve noticed more and more how even Christians who say they believe in the Bible, in sola scriptura, and who say they “love the Lord,” cannot agree on many topics!!! And they all claim THEY have the correct understanding of the Bible. Not all of you guys can be right.
Put ten of such Bible-believing Christians in a room, ask them a theology question, and you will get 15 different responses, with each claiming THEIR view is the correct only, based on the Bible only, and what GOD says and not their opinion!!
Does Lori think her understanding of the Bible is infallible? Because it sure as heck is not.
There are equally conservative, Bible-believing Christians out there who don’t share her understanding of the Bible concerning gender roles.
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@Daisy,
I left you a nice comment on the Trey thread.
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Kathi,
Good for you! I am thankful you pursued your degree and Masters as well. We need people like you helping others in so many godly ways for His Kingdom. Please know my intent was not to insult the achievements of others, including yourself.
And Thank-you for sharing your story as well. I respect you all the more, for those experiences in life lead you in the direction of having love, compassion, and empathy for those who need it when the going gets rough. There is so much to learn through life experiences, ones in which text books could never teach us. God does work in mysterious ways.
And no doubt, you are a working witness for Jesus. I personally appreciate all that you add to this site for I have learned volumes.
Blessings to you, Kathi!
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Daisy, thank you for that compliment. By the way folks, Lori has been on a roll lately. On 3/20 she wrote an blog article entitled, The Jezebels Among Us. No, I haven’t read it because I know it will follow the same hate-filled diatribe against women as usual. Then on 3/22 she wrote a blog article entitled, Feminism Destroys Boys. I think her verbiage is increasing becoming more caustic – AND HARMFUL – toward women. Something is seriously wrong with her.
And, surprise, surprise (not) Timothy Hammons who has the blog Theology That Matters, is praising Lori A.’s blog article, A Workforce Without Men. The exact article to which I responded on her Facebook page. These Fundamentalists literally have no critical thinking skills, no understanding of people’s unique circumstances that don’t fit into their rigid theology, no ability to reason.. All they can do is shout: IT IS WRITTEN!!!!
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Is it wrong that any mention of ‘jezebels’ is likely to make me burst out laughing at someones ridiculousness??
Isn’t that the truth! But if you point them to other stuff that is in the bible they will cheerfully ignore it. God gave us a brain. I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to be using it. Even if we’re women.
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Darlene – I love the hypocrisy in the post The Jezebels Among Us. She talks about how it supposedly goes against God’s word for women to publicly preach and teach (that is man’s role), yet she uses a blog to teach and preach what she believes God’s word says about the role of women. She is not any different than the women she is complaining about because she reaches a wide audience of men and women in a very public way.
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Katy – I never thought you were insulting the achievements of others and I apologize if I made it sound that way. When I started reading the story of the gentleman talking about his Bible college educated wife I started to get angry. Just because someone has an education doesn’t mean they’re above doing hard work. I was glad to read that the conversation did not stay in the direction my mind went.
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I wish there was a way to show Lori A. the one hundred verses in the Bible about women speaking up. Here’s an “it is written” that no one talks about:
“The Lord speaks; many, many women spread the good news.”
Psalms 68:11 (NET)
“The Lord gives instructions. The women who announce the good news are a large army.” (GW)
Now who wants to silence that large army? Definitely not Christ who made the Pharisees listen to a women’s testimony in the synagogue in defiance of their deeply held refusal to listen to women in church.
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By the way, Jesus actually let a woman interrupt His sermon and He only replied to her point. He never told her to stay silent in church even at the perfect opportunity to do so. (Luke 11:27-28)
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Katy – We recently finished a book review of the children’s book “God’s Design.” The writers state that it man is designed to work because in Genesis God said that man would work the soil. Absolute literal interpretation reading going on there.
Do we need to do an intervention to get you back into the house? Just kidding! I guess the authors of that book have never realized that women have been working the fields for centuries. Even one of their finest examples, Ruth, worked the field so she and Naomi could eat.
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They ignore the stuff that doesn’t fit, and then tell you you are required to do X because it’s ‘biblical’. All that other biblical stuff doesn’t count.
Madness!
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I see the response “God wants women busy at home” that agrees against women in the work place.
What a completely out of context assumption. In the time when that was written, the home was the place of economic work for about everyone except soldiers. “Busy at home” would have meant busy in the same place from which money-producing products and services are done.
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Here’s something else to add to this discussion. If women are supposed to stay at home because it’s biblical, then shouldn’t men be working in the fields? Shouldn’t they be working by the sweat of their brow because it’s biblical? I don’t hear about this from the Patriarchal crowd. Lots of those husbands have comfy jobs in air-conditioned offices. Me thinks Ken Alexander has too much of a cushy job. If he ain’t out there sweating then he must not be following the Bible. 😉
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Kathi,
Yes, yes, yes! According to the “Book of Mankind,” I should be counseled into believing that my place is in submission to anyone who boasts of having vast amounts of wisdom and authority over others; this lord it over theology is rampant amongst the naïve in apostate churches.
You may be right. Perhaps, indeed, my soul needs some kind of intervention regarding the ‘god wired men and women differently’ theology that I was once led to believe by folks who simply so not understand that in this life……love doesn’t pay the bills, but in fact, working and receiving a paycheck does. We still live in reality, not fantasy here.
You make a wonderfully valid point regarding Ruth and Naomi via the Scriptural texts. Ruth worked the fields…….Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees when they witnessed the disciples collecting grain on the Sabbath, so they would have food to eat on that very day. Seems like the fake religious love to lord it over, criticize, and condemn, and yet, not fully know the liberty we have in that Christ fulfilled the whole of the Law. Funny how that is.
And I have often thought that right after the Fall, could it be possible that Eve had to manually do her share as well, in order to eat and survive? Perhaps she had to work the fields and the gardens in order to provide a living for her and Adam’s growing family, for the grocery stores didn’t have long hours back in their day.
Seems like the gender wars are increasing significantly amongst those in the professing church all the while Jesus stands outside of the door still knocking on the hearts and minds of people to come to the well to know Him fully.
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I love reading all these posts about the self centered irrationality of individuals like Trey and Lori. I loved it when Lori said that single women should live off welfare instead of working. Welfare won’t even take you if you are able to work. I guess you could apply for disability because you’re a woman and are too frail and emotional to hold down a job. Trey is a hoot as well. He thinks women are unbearable on the job? I once worked with a young guy who never stopped talking about sex. He once said the worst thing was to wake up next to an ugly girl (he was ugly himself). I told him (in front of two female workers) that the worst thing would be to wake up next to him. He had no comeback. Keep it up, you guys. I ‘m getting more ideas for satire in every day. Thank you.
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