Clergy Sex Abuse, Divorce, It's All About the Image, Marriages Damaged-Destroyed by Sp. Ab., Mental Health and the Church, Narcissistic Pastors, Personal Stories, Recovery Process, Spiritual Abuse, SURVIVOR STORIES, Tullian Tchividjian, Women and the Church

Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 1

Tullian Tchividjian, Personal Survivor Story, Clergy Sex Abuse

Statue of Lady Justice © Sebastian Duda, Fotolia #35822634.
Statue of Lady Justice © Sebastian Duda, Fotolia #35822634.

LINKS: My Story:  Part #1Part #2Part #3Part #4Part #5.

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An Introduction, from Julie Anne Smith and Brad Sargent

Several of those who have alleged victimization by Tullian Tchividjian have contacted me (Julie Anne) over the past year and a half. Rachel (which is her real first name) was one of them. She is the survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s clergy sexual misconduct in the spring and summer of 2015. She’s also named as “Woman #2” in our recent Partial Timeline post. Discovery of their sexual relationship by staff at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (CRPC) led to Tchividjian being asked to resign as Senior Pastor there, and his being “deposed” by the South Florida presbytery (i.e., having his ministry credentials removed).

Rachel’s story is critically important to consider, in part because she tried to inform multiple Christian leaders – mostly men who were supposedly responsible for overseeing or counseling Tchividjian – about what she experienced as his patterns of lies, seduction, and spiritual abuse. She herself admits, she didn’t always do this in the best way, with rants and emotional comments on posts. But she and her family had been harmed, and she was also trying to get Tchividjian to follow through in repaying over $11,000 he had borrowed from Rachel and her husband to hire a private investigator.

So, it turns out that her personal story intersects with the three main ministries that have been parts of Tchividjian’s platform during the past several years: Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (Fort Lauderdale, FL), Willow Creek (Presbyterian) Church (Winter Springs, FL), and the Liberate Network. At this point, we know of no other survivor whose actions connect with all three. We are grateful she has agreed to share her story so that others can be warned about wolves in the Body of Christ, and also learn about what real repentance and recovery can look like.

Although the first two posts present most of the unfolding history from 2015 and 2016 in chronological order, this has taken much time and work to put the pieces into sequence. As with many survivors of abuse and trauma, recollections tend to come out in bursts, often with different sets of details, emotions, and/or emphasis. So, it took multiple rounds of her writing and our editing and Rachel’s final additions to produce those two history posts, plus the other two posts with thoughts she has for those involved in situations of abuse.

This is a complex situation that involves numerous individuals and organizations. So, we have added background information at the beginning of some sections. This is to help frame the larger picture of what was going on so some of Rachel’s specific statements have more context. Also, if we added clarifying dates or other details to her text, they will be noted [by being in square brackets]. Most of the links that appear in her text have also been added by us to expand the history and context of what she is saying.

But we wanted to keep it as Rachel’s story, in her own words as much as possible. So, well over 90% of all the material in this series of posts comes directly from Rachel, with some minor editing to help clarify the content. She has reviewed the content of all of these articles and agreed to let them be posted here on Spiritual Sounding Board.

Parts #1 and #2 give the overall history of the clergy sexual abuse Rachel was drawn into, what happened after her involvement with Tullian Tchividjian, and how that ties in with where things stand today for both him and her.

Part #3 shares her process of recovery, and her message of help and hope for others who’ve found themselves drawn into the vortex of supply for someone who exhibits narcissistic behaviors.

Part #4 shares her thoughts directly to Tullian Tchividjian about his attitudes and actions, and a message for those who’ve been shielding him from facing the consequences of his hyper-grace theology that has severely harmed others. It ends with concluding thoughts from us as editors.

Some final notes:

This is Rachel’s story. Although she personally knows many of the others who’ve allegedly been harmed by the actions of Tullian Tchividjian and/or those who try to protect and promote him, these individuals need to be given the choice to raise their own voice – if and when they are ever ready to do so. So, she is not telling the stories of other people, only her own, except where occasionally something needs to be said about others because their stories happen to intersect with hers in ways that affected how things unfolded.

As such, our team of moderators will be watching comments for this series of posts closely. We may delete or edit statements or questions about people other than Rachel as we see fit. Please don’t be pushing for information that is not Rachel’s right or responsibility to give.

Also, please keep comments on-topic, so readers do not have to wade through material that doesn’t relate to the Tullian Tchividjian situation. If a post raises issues that may be important but create a tangent to the post, please feel free to go to the Off-Topic Discussion page.

You’ll find additional information, analysis, and resources on this case in the Partial Timeline and the Resource Bibliography.

One additional note: Rachel is not a trained mental health professional, but she uses mental health terms in describing some of Tullian Tchividjian’s behaviors and apparent character issues. These are her opinions based on her limited knowledge, and are not meant to be a factual diagnosis.

Edited to add 11/30/16: This is Rachel’s story, and she is sharing what she recalls of her relationship with Tullian Tchividjian. She is sharing her facts, opinions, and what she believes to be true. Tullian is a public figure of interest. It is not defamatory to share opinions, beliefs, and personal stories publicly. In order to prove that she is being defamatory, it would need to be shown that she knowingly told lies, and did so with malice.  ~ja

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#1. Being Groomed for Money, Sex, and Power:

April and May 2015

Hi, I’m Rachel.

Before I begin sharing my story, I want you, the reader, to understand my heart in coming forward with it. I have not made the choice to do so easily or without prayer and guidance over many months. I do not hate Tullian or wish to merely embarrass him or monstrify him to you. I do not seek revenge or my own vindication, to be heralded as a victim or excused for my sin.

The reason I am choosing to be open and very vulnerable with you, is to highlight an example of how an abuse system was born and flourished inside the ranks of reformed evangelicalism. This story is a very public example of pastoral sexual abuse – something unfortunately prevalent in the church. It is also a case study in how our ways of doing church often promote someone with a narcissistic personality and cocoon him in a position that only feeds his pathology.

The issues I hope to highlight are much bigger than Tullian Tchividjian, his victims, or one sector of the church. The details, though ugly, do matter so that you can piece together the true picture. That has been difficult because the internet is Tullian’s primary platform, and survivors usually have none. Much media attention has been given to this story, but Tullian’s internet spin can be analyzed alongside details of his covert activities during the same seasons he spoke publicly about his repentance. That’s why I’m being as specific as possible … so you can see and decide for yourself.

My heart breaks telling this story. The events of the past two years have permanently changed my life and those of my husband and two young children. Many other people have been affected in similar ways over a period of many years. Theirs is not my story to tell. To those who have had the courage to come forward before me, I extend my thanks. And to those who will never speak of their experiences, I pray that my words may help you in some way. For my part in the story, I am truly broken and repentant before the Lord. I extend a public apology to all who have been hurt by my sin.

To Tullian, I ask that you would please dedicate the next substantial season of your life to keeping out of the public eye and off of social media. I believe you need to seek serious professional help and a way of supporting your family financially that does not involve Christian ministry or book sales. There is no way we can make recompense for the full damage we cause by our sin. My social media rants (included in this post unchanged) have been angry and emotional. I’m not looking for more money back. I request that you do not seek to re-establish contact with me.  I consider that we are both just clay in the Lord’s hands. His, not ours, is the only story I want my life to tell. I fear for your soul and for the damage you continue to cause to the church and her reputation in the eyes of the world. Please stop.

And so I begin …

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My husband and I started to attend Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in the summer of 2014. Our family needed help from the Body of Christ – at the time we started attending, our marriage was running on fumes. But our attendance there did us much more harm than good. CRPC, under Tullian Tchividjian, had become a desperately sick and ill-equipped establishment. His church was largely spiritually immature. Sadly, we didn’t know.

We had moved our household to Fort Lauderdale that spring and now lived close to the church. We had heard Tullian Tchividjian was a good preacher, and a grandson of Billy Graham. But we had never followed him online or read any of his books. Tullian was on summer vacation when we started to attend, and he was not the reason we went there initially. We have young children and were looking for a local church where we could find genuine Christian community.

Tullian’s message appealed to me greatly. Previously, we attended a mega-church where the senior pastor had fallen into adultery. Tullian’s preaching seemed like a breath of fresh air – liberating almost. I had a Presbyterian upbringing, and was inclined towards reformed theology. And CRPC was a member of the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America).

Also, I’d had an affair four years prior and the sermons seemed to be exactly what I needed to be able to accept God’s forgiveness for that and move on. As I got to know the women of the church, I invested my life with some of them, sharing my story and my gym habit. I wrote a Christian fitness blog and encouraged many of them in fitness.

Tullian baptized our kids that fall after we became members of the church. At that time he found my email address on the church records and sent me a personal email with a tweeted photograph of our son he had already posted. I replied cordially, though I would’ve preferred to have been asked prior to having a photograph of my child on his very public social media platform. I also thought it strange that my husband did not receive a similar email.

I first talked to Tullian in person at a Thanksgiving football game in 2014. The interaction was very brief. He was wearing shorts and all I remember thinking was that his legs looked very disproportionately skinny. I never felt any physical attraction to him. I never sought him out in any way. I didn’t follow him on Twitter … I didn’t even use Twitter. But my husband felt something that day and said to me that he thought Tullian was attracted to me. I discounted that thought as absolutely ridiculous.

At a Christmas Eve service in 2014, I was asked to do a Bible reading. When I went up to the pulpit prior to my reading, Tullian was sitting there. Much later he told me he had gone up there especially just to see me up close. After my reading I totally forgot he was there. When I climbed down from the pulpit I heard his voice behind me: “Merry Christmas!!” I apologized that I’d forgotten about him sitting there (I was nervous about the public speaking), and wished him a Merry Christmas also. I did not interact with him again until April 2015.

Tullian spends a lot of time at the gym. He emailed me in mid-April 2015 and asked me to help him with training advice. He gave me his cell number and asked me to call him. We started texting. I knew he had a trainer (“Kara”), and since I’m not one, I found that a little “off.” But I sent him some YouTube links for exercises he could use for his back rehabilitation.

Then he started texting me songs to “thank” me for my exercise tips. One song he sent me at this early stage was this: “Still I Wait.” The lyrics were sexually charged: “I really want to lay with you, but I resist because of the pain it puts me through …” [Warning: many of the lyrics for “Still I Wait” by Jonas Steur are beyond merely suggestive, to more sexually explicit.]

I put it on in the car with my kids!!!!! I was horrified. Later, I challenged him on it. He denied ever listening to the lyrics. I never expected my pastor, Billy Graham’s grandson, to be the pathological liar I later discovered that he was.

Prior to the Mockingbird Conference [in New York City; April 16-18, 2015], the nature of our texting relationship was overly friendly. But, apart from the subtle sexual hints and intensity of conversation, not much was really said. We talked about music, working out, fashion, and my “story.” I thought he was charming, somewhat effeminate, and just overly chatty. I believed he genuinely cared about his parishioners and wished to be perceived as really available and “just one of us.” I really liked him. Also, it was becoming apparent how “similar” we appeared to be (we are not at all similar, though he made me feel that way … which I later learned is a “grooming” technique manipulators use).

When he came back from New York, he approached me about his wife, Kim, supposedly having been caught by him in an affair. He singled me out as his right-hand woman, befriending my husband also at this time. It seemed we were becoming special friends, insiders in his life, and strangely vital to his process. He invited himself to stay at our home, paraded around without his shirt when my husband was at work … honestly, I wasn’t that impressed (my husband had a better physique), but he pushed hard into my life and I felt sorry for him.

It turns out he lied ridiculously about Kim, but I’d believed him. I’m a pleaser by nature. I found it difficult, oftentimes, to put a protective boundary in place with people in general, and almost impossible with him.

As Tullian made his way deeper into our lives, he asked to borrow money from us to hire a private investigator. He wanted documented proof that Kim was having an affair. If we paid on his behalf, he wouldn’t have to use their accounts, and that would prevent Kim from finding out about it. We used our credit card for payments on April 25, May 1, and May 6, 2015. He requested all the investigator’s bells and whistles, and the bill totaled over $11,000.

Later on, despite numerous attempts we made to get Tullian to repay, he kept delaying. He promised to pay monthly, but nothing ever came. My husband was embarrassed to keep asking when Tullian seemed to be in such personal crisis. I told my husband to back off, assured that the payment would come. It never did until something happened 10 months later. We’ll get to that soon …

Payment Invoice and Receipt from Private Investigators ~ May 6, 2015

Tullian Tchividjian Private Investigator Invoice Clergy Sex Abuse

Tullian counseled my husband, bought him a vape, and invited him several times to his home to talk about our marriage privately, without me there. Tullian told me it felt good to be able to counsel him since he was on a sabbatical from CRPC and missed his role as a pastoral counselor. I found out later that he even counseled my husband to divorce me before we separated. And Tullian counseled me in a way that made me feel responsible for the breakdown of my marriage.

Despite the fact that my marriage of 13 years had been very challenging and emotionally harmful at times, I was the one made to feel completely to blame by Tullian. It was in this climate I got involved physically with Tullian. I make no excuses for my sin, but the context is relevant for people to understand the true story.

Emotional self-flagellation was my specialty … and I was emotionally in crisis. I had been with my husband since a virginal teen and my life was blowing up. That made me vulnerable … and I eventually came to see that Tullian always seemed to set people up so that he could turn their own sin against them for his benefit. And he uses false theology to do it.

He is famed for saying, “We are all far worse off than we think we are.” This statement means more than the fact that he had a low anthropology theologically. He means to minimize sin and cause us to believe we have no reason to fight against it in our lives. He denies this of course, but promotes sin by “living above the law” himself. His theology has morphed into something that facilitates his expression of his personality disorder. The false gospel he preaches does not call the sinner to repentance, but rather excuses the sinner to stay in his sin. It is dangerous.

Of course, hyper-grace appeals to those of us who have fallen and who need to know God’s mercy and love for us. Yet Scripture states that our favor with God is contingent on true repentance. This vital point was always neglected by Tullian. He left out the reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that Scripture calls for … he hated “to do lists.” He did not appear to truly know or fear God. He resented spiritual conversation and told me, “You know the Bible better than I do.”

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#2. Beyond Grooming to Sexual Involvement:

May and June 2015

Tullian enlisted me as liaison between the private investigator and himself. I felt desperately uncomfortable in this role. I approached the leadership at Coral Ridge about my awkward feeling and, taking their advice, tried to distance myself. I requested that one of his male employees take the role from me. That happened, though my credit card continued to be charged (despite my request that it wouldn’t) with “no expenses spared” for Tullian’s private investigation of his wife.

Each time I created distance, Tullian pursued me with more intensity. He seemed frenetic and was not handling himself well emotionally. I felt very sorry for him. He texted me constantly, leaning hard on me all hours of the day and night. He had no regard for my family life or other obligations, and I felt obliged to be at his beck and call “in service to the gospel.” I was exhausted and overwhelmed. But I tried to believe the best about him always, doubting myself instead.

While the church had put Tullian on a sabbatical to deal with his “family crisis,” he told me they were pushing him out. I grew very cynical of the church at that time, siding with Tullian. I figured out later that he’d lied outrageously to me, but I continued to believe every word.

In due course, and I believe due to Tullian’s ungracious handling of his situation, the church later called for his resignation. At this stage he was outraged, feeling totally betrayed by them. He had me completely on board. I spent a lot of time with him, telling myself he just needed me as a friend. He told me he had nobody. He told me his “mighty men” had forsaken him. He started contacting lawyers about negotiating a large settlement package to accompany his resignation.

Our relationship became physical from the end of May through June. Wracked with guilt, I told Tullian that I would not be a distraction from his efforts to reconcile with Kim, which he was supposedly trying to do. (Now I fully believe that he had ZERO intention of reconciliation all along. But he wanted then to convince the world that he did.)

I watched Tullian torment Kim by text during our time together. He lied to her about me. He rallied their children with lies against her. I begged him to stop. He truly, truly messed with her mind … gaslighting her to absolutely ensure she would never want to reconcile.

He told me once that he never thought he would be lucky enough to see Kim have an affair. And that he’d wanted to leave her for years and years, but couldn’t because of the collateral damage to his “career.” I always stressed ministry as “God’s call”… but Tullian stressed that it was his “career.” He said he loved his life and hated Kim for potentially ruining it for him.

When our relationship got physical, I absolutely knew we were sinning. Tullian had zero remorse, saying he didn’t believe that pre-marital sex was unbiblical … and he’d been love-bombing me with promises of marriage. He preached the “gospel” and said “tetelestae” [Greek for, “It is paid for,” which among the last words of Jesus on the cross]. He said we were doing nothing wrong.

The unfolding history continues in Part #2.

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Series Table of Contents

An Introduction, from Julie Anne Smith and Brad Sargent


  • #1. Being Groomed for Money, Sex, and Power: April and May 2015
  • #2. Beyond Grooming to Sexual Involvement: May and June 2015


  • #3. The Light Will Uncover What’s Been Done In Darkness: June and July 2015
  • #4. Tullian Starts Divorce Proceedings: August 2015
  • #5. Spiritual Business Starts Getting Taken Care Of: August 2015 – March 2016


  • #6. My Process of Repentance and Recovery (spring 2015 and Onward), and My Message for Those Drawn Into Clergy Sexual Misconduct: There is Help and Hope for Us!


  • #7. My Personal Response to Tullian Tchividjian: An Open Letter, November 2016
  • #8. My Response to Tullian’s Supporters and Protectors:  An Open Letter, November 2016
  • #9. Final Thoughts From the Editors

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149 thoughts on “Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 1”

  1. Very sad story as there were children involved ……. children suffer ever so much more when there is serious marital trouble than most people realize

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Thank you Rachel for being willing to share your story in the hope that others will benefit by reading it and becoming wise to the tactics of wolves in sheep’s clothing,

    Thanks JA and Brad for your oversight and comments on this series.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. I have to say that I feel sick in reading all this information. I am still in the period of processing all this. The information is so disturbing and makes my stomach feel sick. But here is the other thing that angers me. I had a very volatile relationship with someone who drank the SGM Kool Aid and who tried to get me involved in Eric Simmons Redeemer Arlington. We fought over SGM issues and so much more. I liked Tulian because he was the only one who came out and said, “Of course Mahaney knew…” I just had faced a false accusation that took aim a my name and job. I felt vindicated when Tulian spoke out again Mahaney. Now I am processing that information and wondering if there were other motives for why he did that. But in light of the hell I went through I am angry over what I am seeing.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Every single enabler of this predator is guilty of contributing to this abuse and needs to face up to what they have done, both personally and corporately in the case of the churches who hired him in the first place. Having watched Christian media make celebrities of pastors as far back as the 80’s when my father founded a Christian TV station when I was a teen, the whole scene was and is perfectly designed to create these situations. Coral Ridge made a celebrity out of the earlier pastor with his God and country sermons and his wrapping the cross in the American flag. The actual spiritual health of this giant church? Nobody knew or cared in TV land, because they got what they wanted to support with their checks. Tullian is not just a tragic accident at that church. The Coral Ridge “elders” lusted after further greatness and went for the one with the big name relative and the sex appeal to draw in the younger crowds so their influence as a church would continue. Unfortunately, nobody took a long hard look at the man’s character. They unleashed this predator on victims who had deep personal needs – the kind predators always seek out. The damage done to lives and souls by this decision is incalculable.

    The church that hired him AFTER Coral Ridge is also without excuse. Giving this blatant and apparent narcissist and predator a church post of any kind was yet another example of a church grasping at a big name for relevance. Who cares that he was a spiritual threat to others in that church. The ones with the greatest need.

    I also blame men like Chris Rosebrough at Pirate Christian Radio (the name says it all) and Fighting for the Faith who rushed to defend Tullian and claims to have granted him personal “absolution” for his adultery. All who tried to point out ongoing serious issues were howled down as pharisees and legalists. No, Chris, to anyone with discernment, I believe the man was and is a flaming narcissist who refused to get off social media and deal with his own life. It was, I repeat, obvious. These testimonies of the damage done by Tullian are so important.

    Thank you to Rachel, and another who shared with Nate Sparks her story. The ENABLERS of these abusers are directly responsible and need to be treated as such. Also, thank you, Julie Anne, as always for publishing the truth and shining the light in dark places.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Rachel,

    Thank you for doing something very difficult in order to protect other people.

    We admire your courage in opening up about very painful experiences you’ve had.

    We believe you.

    Whatever happens next—don’t allow anyone to put that heavy burden of guilt on you or make you feel terrible about what happened. By coming forward, you did something that a lot of Christian leaders didn’t have the courage to do—the right thing.

    The blame must stay on the perpetrator. The next time someone tries to blame you for what God has already forgotten about—remember you have all of us standing with you.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. claims to have granted him personal “absolution” for his adultery

    The hubris of some men to think they can grant ‘absolution’ for sins that were not committed against them!

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Folks, please be careful with your wording. Make sure you post “I believe” or “it is my opinion” rather than using factual statements against anyone in your comments.

    For example:
    Mickey Mouse is a rapist vs I believe Mickey Mouse is a rapist.

    I will be editing comments that could put you or me in harm’s way legally. Thanks!


  8. Added this important note to the post:

    Edited to add 11/30/16: This is Rachel’s story, and she is sharing what she recalls of her relationship with Tullian Tchividjian. She is sharing her facts, opinions, and what she believes to be true. Tullian is a public figure of interest. It is not defamatory to share opinions, beliefs, and personal stories publicly. In order to prove that she is being defamatory, it would need to be shown that she knowingly told lies, and did so with malice. ~ja


  9. All I could think was:
    Churches need to put better boundaries around their pastors (my church has several, by the way. They’re not tamper-proof, but they are helpful).

    Congregants need a better understanding of what they should “expect” from pastors and leaders. That much personal attention from anyone should be a huge red flag.

    Since I have spent the past few years working with pre-teens/adolescents, the school where I work provides yearly training to prevent issues in teacher/ student relationships. One of the important parts has been on appropriate boundaries. When someone is feeling “too” close, they probably are.

    Again, nothing is 100% protection for anyone, but when you are informed enough to say “this person is going where they have no business” and put a stop to it, be you clergy or congregant, it can be helpful. Environments that encourage close relationships seem to invite the most abuse.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. I wonder how many big name characters in the “church” get away with behavior just like this because they are able to keep it just a bit more under control?


  11. My thanks to all the brave people willing to expose this. I am sure it comes at much great personal pain. Please keep shining the Light into the darkness. You are exposing something truly evil. Not everyone will receive that well. Praying for all of you, and even those of you not able to share yet. You matter.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. I want to thank JA as well as Rachel for telling us the story of Tullian Tchividjian. If these allegations are true, and I believe that they are without a doubt, then Tullian and Stacie should be allowed nowhere near a church except in repentance, with shoulders bowed, and oozing humility for years.

    I wonder just how much Tullian borrowed from his women.In my parent’s days they had a term for him that seems to fit this narrative. He is a grifter.

    Awesome work, ladies.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. “It is not defamatory to share opinions, beliefs, and personal stories publicly. In order to prove that she is being defamatory, it would need to be shown that she knowingly told lies, and did so with malice.”

    Not only that she did so with malice but she used that malice to deliberately hurt/harm another.

    You need to prove all three and that is darned difficult to prove.


  14. Malice means with intent to harm. You are correct, Dee, it is very difficult for someone to prove malice.

    In other words, Tullian, save your attorney money and spend it on your kids. You will never win a defamation lawsuit. Signed, “B” aka Sheep Lady 🐏. 😊


  15. Good point, Done One, I’m sure there are many who have been harmed and are keeping it private.

    Survivors, you are safe here. Feel free to post with a pseudonym. I will not reveal identities.


  16. What fun would some folks have deposing Tullian and Stacie. These narratives are so good with the victims openly their part in this. So, I wager they would be more than willing to testify against TT and not fear the cross exam.

    You are correct about malice as a legal term. “Malice is a legal term referring to a party’s intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. Malice is expressed when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being.” (Wiki Law)

    Read that last sentence again. I wonder if TT would like to see his malice towards Boz put on display for the world to see. If that allegation is true, I believe the Tchividjian/Graham family should get together and get him some serious help. If he is that unbalance to say that about Boz, balanced individuals are not ridiculous to wonder how far he would go.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. One note here regarding the content; when Rachel mentions that TT’s legs were disproportionately skinny vs. his torso, that is a classic symptom of guys who come to the weight room and hang out doing mostly bench press and preacher curls–and flexing in front of the mirrors. They get big pecs, big biceps, and….back problems from the imbalance of the workout. It’s a classic attempt to look impressive without actually developing any functional strength.

    (and yes, per Rachel’s comment about “somewhat effeminate”, it’s also a classic “compensation” scheme for those who are not classically masculine in build and voice)

    Fits the pattern, sad to say. And it’s something that people who have spent time in a weight room or health club will recognize instinctively.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Thank you JA for all the hard work you have done to help expose this horrible situation. Rachel, thank you for speaking out and trusting people like JA to have your back.
    I know nothing about Stacie. How did she meet Tullian? With his alleged history of manipulation, I hope she wises up and gets out of the marriage soon. In my opinion, if a man is unfaithful to his first wife, chances are he will eventually betray the second one.
    As for Tullian-Grow Up!!

    Liked by 1 person

  19. I first learned of tulian’s existence in 2007 when Reformed Theological Seminary, the school he went to, conducted an interview with him. It was titled something like, “Billy Graham’s Grandson at Reformed Theological Seminary.” While I was stunned to hear of any connection between Graham and a Reformed institution, the thought of someone related to Graham going to seminary caused me to immediately think, “Oh, no.” The interview went like this:
    Billy Graham is my grandfather
    My mother named me Tullian after she saw a video about Tertullian
    No one can pronounce my last name
    I am Billy Graham’s grandson
    I rebelled against my upbringing in the church but have now become a Christian after learning that going my own way leads to misery
    I am Billy Graham’s grandson, he’s great
    I’m going to plant a Presbyterian church
    I am Billy Graham’s grandson
    I like RTS, the professors are good
    I am Billy Graham’s grandson. end
    Upon reading it, I knew he was a wolf because he was boasting in the flesh – he was seeking to exalt himself in the church’s eyes on the basis of being Graham’s grandson. I was so disappointed in RTS. Tulian was ordained in the EPC which is no way a genuine reformed denomination so I was not surprised he would chose a context like that. When Coral Ridge wanted him, I was so disappointed. But that is the kind of church D James Kennedy, a man who preached the American Constitution instead of the word of God, left behind. When Banner of Truth published a book by tulian, I was so disappointed. When the Gospel Coalition let tulian in, I knew they did not know what they were doing. I prayed that the Lord would expose tulian and mark driscoll and he did.
    Tulian’s version of grace was false because he was false. Jude 4. “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Ingrid – you said “I also blame men like Chris Rosebrough at Pirate Christian Radio (the name says it all) and Fighting for the Faith who rushed to defend Tullian and claims to have granted him personal “absolution” for his adultery. All who tried to point out ongoing serious issues were howled down as pharisees and legalists. No, Chris, to anyone with discernment, I believe the man was and is a flaming narcissist who refused to get off social media and deal with his own life. It was, I repeat, obvious. These testimonies of the damage done by Tullian are so important.”
    To be clear, Rosebrough only said he knows “for a fact” that “the pastor” or “a pastor” pronounced the words of absolution over Tullian who confessed his sin. I don’t know how he would know that if it wasn’t him, unless the pastor in question broke the seal of the confessional as well. Otherwise he is only hearing it from TT. And as we all know TT only tells as much as he thinks will stop people examining the quality of his repentance so he can get on with his plans to exploit more people.
    Chris and others like him who remain quite mute after the guy they promoted (and were warned about being problematic, at least theologically, for a while before this all exploded) are cowards. They make a living exposing false teachers everywhere except when it becomes clear they were still taken in by one and still have unhealthy emotional attachments to the person.
    As a result, people who actually see the problem become the villains in his eyes. (as i said it’s not just him, but he’s a very good example of how to become the very thing you claim to hate).


  21. dantespencer, the gospel coalition largely doesn’t know what it’s doing, and that’s why they let TT in. However, they booted him out, probably for some of the wrong reasons. They were, last I checked, still full of major theological confusion. But I stopped bothering with them quite a while ago when they patted the back of James Macdonald’s hand and said nothing but good things about him when he left, even though we all knew there was something wrong with James MacDonald in his control freaky bullying ways too.


  22. Bike Bubba ” They get big pecs, big biceps, and….back problems from the imbalance of the workout. It’s a classic attempt to look impressive without actually developing any functional strength.”

    I almost spit my coffee out through my nose when I read in the other story that he uses and tried to get the one lady to obtain anabolic steroids. Pathetic!


  23. Rachel – Thank you for the long work that you have done with Julie Anne and Brad to provide your story. I’m sure that it was very difficult to process, but you have done a wonderful thing for anyone who is still dealing with the repercussions of abuse. I wish you further peace as you continue to work through your experience.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Jack, I believe I allegedly saw your comment on TT’s FB page. And a moment later— poof!!! It mysteriously vanished! Maybe he took exception to being compared to a Point Of Sale system. Or maybe all (or nearly all) comments are now being deleted for some unknowable reason!

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Hey there Rachel, thank you for sharing. I’m a former memeber of CRPC, a couple years before your time, but I do know that Tullian did not tank CRPC on his own. He frankly wasn’t there enough to be totally or even mostly responsible for the dwindling attendance numbers. However, many of his “yes men” and henchmen who oversaw the day to day operations of the church are still there, and some now have greater leadership roles. How do you feel about the role that they played in your story, and how comfortable are you that they have largely sidestepped this quagmire and gotten off Scot free?


  26. Wow! 2 Timothy 3:1-9 comes to mind. Paul totally nailed it! Even accurately describing the method (i.e. taking advantage of women laden with guilt) and the end (their folly would be manifest to all). I totally encourage all victims to come forward and expose these wolves. I pray that they will find forgiveness, peace and restoration in God.


  27. Rachel, I’m so very sorry for what you have been through. I’m all too acquainted with this terrible grief and confusion. I abhor what you and your family have been through. I’m sorry that you aren’t closer. You and I would have a lot to talk about. But as I read all of this, I’m thinking of the others that have been hurt by all of this, too…Tullian’s kids and family, the church, his followers online, and even Tullian, who from reading this is harming himself. This is truly devastating and I am praying for God’s comfort to all involved.


  28. It takes 2 to tango. If each side presents a very 1 sided view of things, you know the truth often lies in the middle. For the same reason that we should not have Christian lawsuits, I think we should leave some things up to the Lord. As far as the theological stuff, if Tullian misused theology for his own purposes I did not notice it. For his application of Law and Gospel then Gratitude, that simply follows the reformed Guilt, Grace, Gratitude model found in the Heidelberg catechism.


  29. Maybe he took exception to being compared to a Point Of Sale system.

    HA!! After working retail and going to business school, it took me a long time not to see point of sale when I saw pos.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. @Loura Shares A Story. The link you posted has some helpful cautions. But it is also very brief, and I noticed that it does not address the situation of a “public figure” who claims defamation. It isn’t like someone can write anything they want about someone who is a celebrity or otherwise has a limited or extensive public platform. But there are additional issues involved. This page and related links give more extensive information about defamation, public figures, standards for proving loss due to alleged defamation, etc.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Loura, I’ve been involved in a $500K defamation lawsuit and won. Some of the words I used were stronger than Rachel’s. Not one of the phrases that were in the 20+ phrases in the lawsuit were deemed as defamatory. None of them showed that I intentionally lied or showed malice. In a defamation lawsuit, the plaintiffs must show proof that defendants intentionally lied, AND lied in order to cause harm. That is why it is rare to win a defamation lawsuit.

    Because of that lawsuit, I am very sensitive about making sure we have our ducks in a row. However, anyone can sue anyone if they find an attorney willing to take the case. That is today’s reality. That is a risk I am willing to take as I blog because I know that the emotional harm done to survivors is far worse than the inconvenience and emotional toll of a lawsuit. I’ve been through both (not the clergy sex abuse part).

    I have spoken with many, many people on this case who corroborate his character and behavior. If Tullian wants to sue me, BRING IT. When it comes to discovery, the world will see that the small amount that Rachel has disclosed is nothing compared to the whole trail of damage he left with these women and with church staff, school staff, congregants, or anyone who got in his way.

    Rachel and I both agreed that she has so much on Tullian, she could write a book. I suspect Kim could, too.


  32. Julie Anne,

    I’m totally with you on that one. My opinion is that T.T. might have some skeletons in his closet that he doesn’t want exposed in a lawsuit. Like Dee said, he probably wouldn’t want to go through the grilling of a deposition where nothing is off limits!


  33. Exactly, Avid Reader, nothing like getting nekkid before the court and not having ANY control. People like Tullian have a need to be in control. Not a pretty picture.


  34. I want to thank Rachel. Without detailed testimonies we would have no insight into the murkey world of grooming. The really sick thing about grooming is the alleged groomer actually detects and exploits weakness for personal gain or satisfaction. They are masters at sniffing them out. Then they do some testing with vague words or references. If no big negative response they keep going. In their minds, the victim is to blame for not stopping them. It is a sick world. They suck everyone dry. It’s all about then even when they are promoting their victim status.

    Yet, at the time, Everyone loves them. But, Those who recognize the signs but have nothing concrete to point to are accused of all sorts of nefarious evils. Many pastors promoted him and his obvious cheap grace doctrine. We have to stop putting pastors on pedestals.

    I guess my position is much like Ingrid’s from my own experience in non Reformed mega churches. Pew sitters have no idea how corrupt it all is. And frankly, most don’t care. They are there to be entertained or to check the box or have a group to belong to. Perfect for exploitation.


  35. Steve, Tullian and the media have gone to great efforts to present Tullian and his side. Until the past 2 wks, no media has heard the other side, period, except those close to the survivors.

    Tullian’s spin on things would have us believe that he has fully repented, is newly married, and God’s grace is sufficient for him to move along. What a farce. He has not fully repented as the victims will tell you. He left behind hurting congregants and staff. The Bible talks about exposing spiritual wolves.


  36. Ingrid’s post above is defamatory about Chris Rosebrough.. Tullian lied to Chris Rosebrough. That isn’t Rosebrough’s fault. I am sure you will hear Chris Rosebrough cover this new information on his program. .


  37. At a certain point, I’m very unsympathetic to the claim that we ought to be paying a lot of attention to the woman’s role here. The ugly reality of life is that from time to time, each one of us will have chances to interact with people who “come on way too strong” for whatever reason–lonely, mental illness, simple mistakes, whatever–and it is then incumbent on us to deal with that in a Godly way. I am no prestigious, powerful person, and even I have had to deal with this. I got out of one time, I believe, because I simply smiled and noted my wife had made the sweater she’d just admired. No cleverness on my part, as I realized what she’d been doing only afterwards. (she went on to hit on another coworker of mine at the time…)

    This is even more the case when we’re talking about a person with authority like a pastor or politician, and in the testimony here, there are things that can be verified or falsified very readily. The money part is clear, as is the fact that TT was into bodybuilding–all that is lacking is cell phone records, and even that may exist.

    Not a fight I would pick if I were a lawyer–as another noted, discovery would be really, really nasty. Lots of work with the likely result of getting slapped into next week.


  38. Tullian lied to Chris Rosebrough. That isn’t Rosebrough’s fault.

    Tullian lied to everyone, apparently. Some people were discerning enough to ferret him out, but a lot weren’t (including I take it Chris R., about whom I know nothing).

    It would be nice to hear from these various pastors, writers, etc, some 1. admission that they made mistakes in believing Tullian (and for some, a host of other pastors who have made a mess of things), and 2. summary of what they have learned from their mistakes! Where is the reflection? Where is the repentance. It seems to be missing so often! Instead, they are giving Tullian a platform to lie and speechify all over again.

    If each side presents a very 1 sided view of things, you know the truth often lies in the middle. For the same reason that we should not have Christian lawsuits, I think we should leave some things up to the Lord.

    Did you say the same when Tullian was giving out interviews and articles all over the place? He has HAD his say. He jumped out to present it first, so he could look best.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Steve, Yes, tulian may have used the confessionally reformed guilt, grace, and gratitude (some think this comes from the outline of Romans), but that does not mean what he espoused about grace in general was biblical. It absolutely was not (and I did not have to listen for but a brief time to recognize his material as a twisting of the gospel.) When he was accused of antinomians, he tried to hide behind Michael Horton and Scott Clark, saying he got his teaching from them. Tulian may have been exposed to the law-gospel distinction from them, but he distorted the gospel because he does not believe the gospel. He does not believe the gospel because he is devoid of the Spirit who grants the elect saving faith (Jude 19; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Pet 3:16).


  40. Lea hits on something very powerful here; it would be wonderful if the elders and fellow pastors of TT got together and figured out how and why they missed the signs. I am of course working with 20/20 hindsight, but it would be very helpful to churches to have others who have gone through this say “here is where we went wrong, and why, and here is what we’d recommend you do.” If indeed a significant portion of pastors do fall into sexual sin–anything from viewing porn to physical adultery–this is something of interest to all of us.



    I never trust pastor endorsements anymore. As a victim of spiritual abuse I had a huge problem with the hyper grace folks who trot it out to sweep bad behavior under the rug. it was used on me. Basic Justice of right and wrong are totally ignored unless it is criminal justice. All the abuser has to say is ” I repent” and supposedly we are duty bound to accept it. Fruit doesn’t matter. And we are sinning if we don’t buy into the words.


  42. Steve,

    Let’s hope that this kind of evil never happens to your family. Then you might feel much differently.

    When you wrote
    “It takes 2 to tango. If each side presents a very 1 sided view of things, you know the truth often lies in the middle. For the same reason that we should not have Christian lawsuits, I think we should leave some things up to the Lord.”

    “It takes 2 to tango” ignores the reality of how wolves have infiltrated the church and pulled the wool over our eyes. Evil people deceive others. That’s what they do. That’s why the Bible repeatedly warns us to be on our guard.

    Deception means that the victim was deceived—they didn’t see the wolf in sheep’s clothing. Blaming them is totally unfair because it shifts the burden of responsibility away from the real perpetrator who was doing the deceiving in the first place. That’s the wolf’s favorite weapon is pointing the finger at everyone besides himself.

    Keep in mind that God’s judgment falls much heavier on pastors and church leadership than the flock. (James 3:1) If God holds them much more responsible, then why does the church seem to put more responsibility on the victim?

    My opinion is that T.T. appears to have intentionally broke up a marriage and family just to benefit himself. If T.T. had been a loose woman trying to seduce the pastor, there would have been a whole lot more outrage in the church than there has been over the much worse situation of a loose pastor trying to break up a marriage in the flock!

    Secondly, we cannot delegate back to God what God has delegated to us. When the Bible tells us to publically confront those leaders who continue sinning (1Tim 5:20-21)
    that’s a command that we are responsible for getting done.

    In fact that verse warns against allowing partiality in the church—that’s the real problem lurking underneath the surface.


  43. Basic Justice of right and wrong are totally ignored

    I think too many of these guys want to sound all ‘biblical’ talking about sin and how Jesus forgives our sin…sure. But adultery and abuse are more than ‘sin’. They are not victimless, and anybody who talks about these merely sin while ignoring the victims is suspect to me.


  44. Mike B, The elders went wrong from the beginning when they wanted a man from the EPC, an unfaithful denomination which the PCA does not even have NAPARC relations with. The PCA should be ashamed of itself for ordaining a guy like tulian. (Truth is, though, they ordain many non-reformed young guys who love themselves.) I knew he was no good the first time I heard of him – when I read an interview with him in 2007 where all he did was lift himself up as billy graham’s grandson. I saw through tulian as easy as a clean window on a sunny day. But coral ridge has not learned its lesson. When they were looking for a replacement, the description on their site indicated they are looking for another shallow, man-centered guy like tulian. The only difference was that they included one sentence at the end about needing to have a healthy family life. But again, this is a church that had D James Kennedy whose passion was “Christian America,” not the word of God and the edification of the church.


  45. “It absolutely was not (and I did not have to listen for but a brief time to recognize his material as a twisting of the gospel.) When he was accused of antinomians, he tried to hide behind Michael Horton and Scott Clark, saying he got his teaching from them. ”

    I recognized it, too, early on. Not because I am some brilliant theologian but because it was used on me and then I kept seeing it used on victim after victim of spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, etc in Christendom.Do people really believe basic truth or justice are so unimportant?. But, Those things don’t matter in the world of cheap grace. No new creation in Christ needed. Where are basic trustworthiness, honesty, integrity? No longer needed for Christians?

    These are people who end up making hero’s out of abusers. Tullians cheap grace was particularly hyper. Some of his tweets early blew my mind. He bragged about never doing anything good and people swooned.( Like CJ’s brag about a lack of humility was used) Now we know why he needed it so badly. So he could continue using people for personal gain and narcissistic supply.


  46. He bragged about never doing anything good and people swooned.( Like CJ’s brag about a lack of humility was used)

    Very, very strange how this has become accepted practice in the church. 1. We’re not supposed to brag period, and 2. We’ve got guys bragging about bad stuff? What on earth!

    You shouldn’t get points for being extra terrible. That’s not the point of Christianity.

    And Wade’s article on this was disturbing, too. Grace is a beautiful thing, but like most things, if you take it too far you’ll lose the plot.


  47. Yes, I will be covering the latest revelations about Tullian in an upcoming blog post and radio segment.

    By Rachel and the other women who were manipulated and abused by Tullian coming forward and telling the accounts of what happened to them and how it happened, it has made it possible for me to connect dots and see the ways in which I was blatantly and calculatingly lied to by Tullian. I am not the only person who reached out to Tullian as scripture admonishes us to in Galatians 6:1–2 which says, “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ”. Sadly, it appears that Tullian lied to everyone of the men and women who sought to help him. Rather than truly come clean about the depth of his sin and repent and bear fruit in keeping with repentance, Tullian instead chose to continue to spin a very complex web of lies that could not be sorted out without the information that Rachael, Lisa and Kara were couragous enough to share with the public.

    The anger and sense of betrayal that I have at this moment because of being lied to in this manner is currently very intense. I am sickened by what the truth is and truly concerned for those whom Tullian has used, manipulated and abused as well as Tullian himself, whose soul, I fear, is in grave danger.

    Liked by 3 people

  48. Chris, welcome to the club. Narcissists are some of the best cons around until enough people close enough to them meet and start comparing notes and connecting vague dots. Sadly, pastoring often provides the best venue for automatic trust, an audience, tolerance, set apartness, eagerness for pastors approval, etc.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Chris,

    First of all, thank you for your comment. There has been at least one comment challenging you here, so I appreciate you leaving a comment.

    As someone who has experienced spiritual abuse first-hand, my heart goes out to you as you are coming to grips with the lies and manipulation you were involved in while protecting and defending Tullian. I know the gut-wrenching feeling, and the anger and betrayal, and I will pray for you as you try to recover from this.

    But I also have more to say. I think we have unfinished business. Perhaps you don’t realize it, but we do.

    Last year I challenged you a couple of times while you defended Tullian. I don’t think you handled those exchanges well, nor was I treated respectfully. I would welcome a conversation with you, if you are willing. We can blame Tullian for a lot of things. Yes, you drank his Koolaid of deception. But along the way, you also dismissed my words. I am God’s chosen, part of the priesthood of Believers as well. But I didn’t feel like I was treated as part of the priesthood of believers.

    Somehow, those who have been given a platform and an audience, must be able to listen and treat all Saints with respect. God does not work through you or any other leader, any more than He works through me or other believers. I think sometimes those who have such a platform think they get to choose who is credible or not, based on their preferences; and many times, they immediately give a pass to their friends. I don’t believe He is nearly as concerned about one’s friends, denominations, initials, who went to seminary or not, as He is that people are doing His work and protecting His sheep.

    I would really like to discuss this topic further with you — maybe after you’ve had time to cool off from your shock that Tullian betrayed you, because yes, he truly did. But the ramifications of defending Tullian that many leaders engaged in caused a lot of harm. If we care about God’s church, His sheep, then it’s time for leaders to wake up and start asking themselves why they weren’t listening to the Saints who approached them with the truth? What got in the way? Why did they not investigate further? Why did they not reach out to me when I told them I had important information? Why was I (and others) dismissed?

    The church is broken when we fail to hear the voices of those being abused. I really think a phone conversation, or perhaps a conversation on your podcast may be fruitful. What do you say, Chris?

    Liked by 1 person

  50. The church is broken when we fail to hear the voices of those being abused.

    And women. How much of this is the boys club? How much of this is dismissal of ’emotional’ women?

    I think it’s easy to get taken in by a skillful liar and narcissist. So I have empathy for both Rachel and Chris on that score. But the church issues are larger than that, really.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. “It takes 2 to tango. If each side presents a very 1 sided view of things, you know the truth often lies in the middle.”

    This is not in the Bible. I’m not aware of any objective proof of it, either. My own experience is, the truth lies where it lies and it’s our job to seek it.

    “For the same reason that we should not have Christian lawsuits, I think we should leave some things up to the Lord.”

    Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this… How do we know which things should be left up to the Lord? Would things that are harming others be included? What does “leaving it up to the Lord” look like? Like, what exactly do you expect the Lord to do? Might it not be like the old analogy of the guy waiting for God to rescue him from a flood who refuses the help of a canoe, a rowboat and a helicopter? What if this is the Lord working- through other believers who care enough to confront?

    “As far as the theological stuff, if Tullian misused theology for his own purposes I did not notice it.”

    Now that you’ve read the stories of his victims, can you notice it?


  52. “Tullian lied to everyone of the men and women who sought to help him”

    This situation, and so many others like it, are enabled by the church’s aversion to “gossip.” We don’t talk to each other. We don’t share facts. We don’t talk about anything “unseemly.” Because of this, none of us ever have enough facts to make a wise assessment. I guess the end result is, we leave everything “up to the Lord.” But the Lord is not miraculously taking care of these situations! I think he expects us to take wise action.


  53. “This situation, and so many others like it, are enabled by the church’s aversion to “gossip.” We don’t talk to each other. We don’t share facts. We don’t talk about anything “unseemly.” Because of this, none of us ever have enough facts to make a wise assessment. I guess the end result is, we leave everything “up to the Lord.” But the Lord is not miraculously taking care of these situations! I think he expects us to take wise action.”

    Yes! Most churches have a culture of “no negative truths allowed”. It is “Totalitarian Niceness”. It is sick. It is how dysfunctional families operate who never deal with real conflict or serious problems. Everything becomes phony and platitudinal. Then the subterfuge begins.

    Most think this is “Christian” but how wise and mature can people become in such environments?

    Liked by 1 person

  54. This is heartbreaking and discouraging. Tullian is a classic predator, manipulator, and narcissist. The damage he’s done is incalculable. He should not be in any kind of ministry in any capacity. I really think he should have some sort of probation officer watching him to be honest.
    I would like to also say something here though – unless you’re actually truly forced, there is no excuse for adultery just because you’re having it with a pastor. Rachel readily admits before this story even “starts” she’d already had an affair before. She was not “forced” into this! She was the victim only in the same sense any man ensnared by a scheming woman is a victim, and history is full of those stories also. We have got to take responsibility for ourselves. And yes, that includes male leadership taking their responsibility to listen to their female congregation seriously, even when its something they don’t want to hear. It also includes married men and women taking their vows seriously enough to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. That’s kind of the point. Bad choices lead to bad ends. The hard truth is that Rachel was not just a victim, she was an enabler – indeed she was one of his prime enablers. If being under his “spell” is an excuse for Rachel, then why isn’t it an excuse for other people in her church she feels let her down. Does she not realize how many people she herself hurt, her husband and children among them? And was there really no one who told Rachel it might not be a good idea to take a man having marital problems into her house and pay her bills? Did her husband want to do this?
    We have this idea that that men don’t listen to women on abuse allegations, and I think there is truth to that. But we also have this notion that somehow women are usually innocent and men are not. On top of that is our society’s desire to psychologize everything. Yet reverse this whole story and make Rachel a man and Tully a woman and how do you feel? Maybe I’m just jaded after watching people making the same mistakes over and over, usually against advice or warning. Or maybe I’m tired of watching good pastors have to fend off repeated seduction attempts by a small group of their female parishioners (yes, that’s a “thing”) with little help or support. Either way, we have people – both lay and clergy – having to fend off predators inside the church and that shouldn’t be. There seems to be a culture of not wanting to believe bad news, yet we know we live in a fallen, sinful world, so why are we surprised? I AM glad Rachel helped expose Tully because he’s a monster, but she’s not a hero for doing so. Its what she should do. She’s just another sinner who needs Jesus. As am I.

    Liked by 3 people

  56. Does she not realize how many people she herself hurt, her husband and children among them?

    She obviously does, she has acknowledged it.

    You know who HASNT acknowledged that, except in self-serving ways? Tullian. Which is why we’re here. Your need to turn this around to slamming Rachel for putting the truth in the light is telling.

    Or maybe I’m tired of watching good pastors have to fend off repeated seduction attempts by a small group of their female parishioners (yes, that’s a “thing”)

    And here we go. This is CLEARLY not what happened here. (And I would not be at all surprised to find that many of the things you think were seductions by females were spin by pastors and their entourage).

    Tullian’s behavior has been predatory. And yet, he had many friends willing to defend him, give him jobs in ministry he was not qualified for, and accept him. If that were not happening, if people were not still treating him as if he is some moral leader, there would be no need for an expose.


  57. Barnabas, When you say tulian should not be in any kind of ministry, you indicate that you don’t understand the situation. Tulian is not a Christian. He does not believe in Christ. He was never born again. I knew this back in 2007 when I first learn that he existed. So to say he should not be in the ministry is a gross understatement. The elders who ordained him are themselves disqualified from the ministry for failing to protect the church and to recognize an ungifted, ungodly man. Those elders were thinking like the world – they were only interested in him because of his grandfather. In other words, their thinking was determined by money and celebrity. Tulian never manifested the gifts in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1:5-9.


  58. Barnabas,

    If you believe it is good for predators and users in ministry to be outed then get used to the fact that the whistle blowers are usually not sympathetic characters. Why do you think so many just keep quiet? They get picked to death, analyzed and judged. It is rarely worth it for them.

    Even with those who are more sympathetic and innocent, they are embarrassed at how stupid they were to be taken in. They usually look like naive idiots to most people who have not had close dealings with sociopaths.

    We want people to tell their story. Rachel was not promoting adultery. Quite the opposite.


  59. “Or maybe I’m tired of watching good pastors have to fend off repeated seduction attempts by a small group of their female parishioners (yes, that’s a “thing”) with little help or support”


    Oh there is a great way to put a stop to it. Make it public. Then they would not have to suffer alone with thus horrible problem or need help.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant.


  60. Regarding putting a stop to someone trying to seduce a pastor, I actually had dinner a month ago with a former pastor and a college friend who both had been the object of seduction attempts in the pastorate and while they were TAs in college, and as professors. They found that handing things off to other people–deacon board and college administrations–was a great way to handle it.

    Being, like this writer, in the “middle aged dumpy white guy” category, they also got a bit of amusement out of the fact that they were so approached. Anyone who is in a position of authority is likely to be approached like this, and thus needs to have an almost instinctive response to keep out of trouble.

    But that said, if indeed TT was pursuing “Rachel” and not the other way around–and others–then it’s an entirely different situation. And the phone records would make that pretty clear. Again, we can get so wrapped up in other testimony that we miss the obvious–let’s be careful of that.


  61. Barnabas said,

    We have this idea that that men don’t listen to women on abuse allegations, and I think there is truth to that. But we also have this notion that somehow women are usually innocent and men are not.
    On top of that is our society’s desire to psychologize everything.
    Yet reverse this whole story and make Rachel a man and Tully a woman and how do you feel?

    Rachel, or another one of Tullian’s victims, said that Tullian preyed upon men too (for emotional or financial support). I view those men as victims and as being innocent.

    You might want to keep in mind that men and women in U.S. culture are socialized differently in both secular and church culture.

    This conditioning, being what it is, can make women far more vulnerable to males in some regards than it does males.

    Also, if we reverse the genders as you suggest, it still would not be the same, unless perhaps you also switch roles and the power differential: the female would have to be the clergy-person to whom the male (Tullian in this case) respects, or is under the control of, and is vulnerable around and to.


  62. Let’s all remember how Chris claimed inside information from June through at least September 2015, and how that somehow gave him the edge on discerning Tullian’s quality of repentance, despite what we all clearly saw displayed publicly, despite Boz T and sister Jerushah publicly rebuking Paul Tripp’s ridiculous article about the ‘sad but necessary’ divorce, and Boz T telling him that there was FAR MORE going on behind the scenes than he knows about.

    Clearly Chris’s discernment gets cloudy when he has a particular friendship with a guy. He doesn’t seem to have that trouble with women though. Those he can toss under the bus in a way that makes Driscoll envious.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. “But that said, if indeed TT was pursuing “Rachel” and not the other way around–and others–then it’s an entirely different situation. ”

    Bike Bubba, not entirely. Rachel is/was not a pastor.

    Pastors are always under spiritual attack, and it is never an excuse for sin. What did Joseph do when Potiphar’s wife tried to seduce him?

    He didn’t capitulate and then blame someone else for it, for one.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. By the way, regarding my post re Rosebrough above, he could probably be helped by listening to this gem by Phil Johnson that he broadcast in 2014.
    How to identify true repentance

    In all this Chris the champion of biblical discernment admits he was deceived by someone who the rest of us found patently obviously to be a skunk. I’d been trying to alert CR to the problem with the guy’s antinomian/gospel reduction/sin excusing/victim silencing message for a couple years to no avail. Tullian’s message IS just like Nadia Bolz Weber’s message, as I told him before. And that is why TT regularly called her his ‘sis’ and she called him ‘bro.’ Theologically they are siblings.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. and yes, i thought TT’s message was great too. Listened to everything I could find dating back to 2009 through 2012 when I started to realize what the problem was. Trying to get Chris to see it was like talking to a wall.


  66. terriergal.
    I am in agreement with you and noticed the same things.

    I used to listen to Chris Rosebrough’s (I hope I’m spelling his name right) podcasts quite often but stopped months ago, for a couple reasons.

    One of which is that Rosebrough has a tendency to turn a blind eye to pastors or Christians whose theology he agrees with, or he downplays their infractions, or seems to want to believe the best about them and not seriously consider they may be in error.

    I know that Rosebrough does not like the Prosperity Gospel (I don’t agree with it either), and so he is regularly pretty harsh on guys such as Joel Osteen who are into the Prosperity Gospel.

    Had Tullian Tchividjian been a Prosperity Gospel guy similar to Osteen, I have the sneaking suspicion that Rosebrough probably would’ve been a lot tougher on Tchividjian and more willing to call him out on his podcast and Twitter.

    I vaguely remember Rosebrough scolding people online on social media in regards to Tchividjian and/or some other scandalized pastor about a year or more ago.

    No matter how much people were trying to get Rosebrough to see, he’d laugh it off by posting silly memes about how every one wants to get him to bash Tchividjian (I think it was Tchividjian – it may have been some other pastor).

    I thought it was all very, very strange – for a guy who hosts a daily or weekly show about Christian apologetics and discernment, Rosebrough seemed very uninterested in seriously re-examining Tchividjia or Tchividjian’s teachings. Or he was very blind to the problems.

    I just know if it had been some guy who was into the “Wealth and Health” Gospel or some other theological view Rosebrough does not like, he would’ve been on that person like white on rice…

    If Tchividjian had been a woman, I’m sure Rosebrough also would’ve gone on and on about it from that angle, referring to Tchividjian as a “Pastrix” and dismissing Tchividjian out-right just due to his gender (which would be sexism at work.
    Special note to Chris Rosebrough:
    Tchividjian having male genitalia did not, (according to the testimony I’m seeing on this blog via Rachel and other sources), keep Tchividjian from adultery, misleading or exploiting others, or teaching false theological views).

    One wonders if Rosebrough has ever seriously dealt with the writings or blogs of Christian gender mutualists such as Scot McKnight (of Jesus Creed blog), or The Junia Project blog or _Christians for Biblical Equality site_ (link is to CBE’s site)

    But because Tchividjian is Reformed or has whatever brand of theology Rosebrough likes and grants a stamp of approval to, he was willing to excuse Tchividjian, or assume the best in spite of all those pointing out perceived issues or warnings.

    Anyway. This seems common in Christianity especially with more conservative or Reformed guys: excuse their own camp up the ying-yang but come down hard on anyone who is not viewed as having “correct” doctrine.

    I’ve heard Rosebrough bash and criticize pastor Joseph Prince‘s sermons or views, but Prince’s hyper- grace theology sounds identical to Tchividjian’s to me. (I’ve heard both Prince and Tchividjian regularly on TV. Both have – or once had – weekly TV shows on TBN.)
    For some reason, Rosebrough grants Tchividjian a pass but not Prince. Prince does have a dash of Prosperity Gospel going on – maybe that’s it. But they both sound pretty much alike on the whole Grace thing.

    I wish Christians were more even-handed in their scrutiny. Don’t go easier on some guy or let your guard down just because he’s in your theological camp.


  67. Lydia00, it goes like this huh:

    “Oh I’m just sooo wretched. Such a bad sinner. I beat my kids and wife regularly. Watch porn often. Cheat on my taxes. Don’t pay any taxes! (I’m a salaried servant of the Lord) fleece the sheep for all their worth. Sleep with a few other men’s wives. Such a sinner. Isn’t grace wonderful! So much grace. Always sinning and creating victims. Wonderful grace! All forgiven at the cross! Lend me your wife! Marvellous grace”.

    At what point do we identify and mark and avoid the Matthew 7 false teachers with the ROTTEN fruit?

    Enablers… now is your time to shine!

    Talk about believers being deceived.

    They will come IN MY NAME saying I AM HE.

    The wolves come in Christ’s name and proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah.

    Do not believe them or follow them. Their FRUIT will show them up.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. @Our Unseen Hope. I just read your post — thank you for sharing that. It makes me sad that not only were you victimized by one who should have protected you as a member of the congregation, but that other leaders who tried to do some good in bringing some justice to the situation actually made some things worse. I, too, am thankful we are starting to see more glimmers of hope, as you talked about:

    Even though it’s been incredibly hard for me to read and process the stories of abuse survivors from Nate Sparks and the Spiritual Sounding Board, today I’m thankful that the truth is out, and I pray that the victims and families of those who’ve been abused can begin to heal. I also pray that this will start a movement in churches around the world to acknowledge that clergy abuse of adults does happen and that they will begin to educate their members about it, as well as help others who’ve experienced it.

    The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all. Psalms 34:18‭-‬19 ESV

    This morning I was updating one of my own posts, and thought I’d share two links here that relate with what you posted.

    The first is from The Wartburg Watch in October 2016: It’s Clergy Sex Abuse; Not an Affair!

    The second is from my futuristguy blog, from September 2016: Research Tools: State-by-State Laws on Sexual Violence Issues, Including Clergy Sexual Misconduct (aka “Fiduciary Duty”).

    I hope these add even more weight to your perspective on clergy sexual abuse, and provide some tools …


  69. Salty said,

    Lydia00, it goes like this huh:

    “Oh I’m just sooo wretched. Such a bad sinner. I beat my kids and wife regularly. Watch porn often. Cheat on my taxes. Don’t pay any taxes! (I’m a salaried servant of the Lord) fleece the sheep for all their worth. Sleep with a few other men’s wives. Such a sinner. Isn’t grace wonderful! So much grace. Always sinning and creating victims. Wonderful grace! All forgiven at the cross! Lend me your wife! Marvellous grace”.

    At what point do we identify and mark and avoid the Matthew 7 false teachers with the ROTTEN fruit?

    I was up a bit late last night and left a few posts at Warren Throckmorton’s blog, on a post about Tullian.

    There is some guy in the comments on WT’s blog who keeps comparing Tullian to King David of the Old Testament.
    (I suspect that guy was trolling, but anyway…)

    The guy on WT’s blog saying that Tullian is like King David seems to think if someone is a “justified sinner,” or claims to be one, that the person is off the hook and should pay no penalties for their wrong doing.

    This person also said that we cannot see a man’s heart, only God can do that.

    I said in a post or two in reply to that person that Jesus said believers are to look at a person’s outward behavior to make judgments precisely because we, unlike God, are not mind-readers and cannot see into a person’s heart.

    So we are told by Jesus to judge a tree by its fruit.

    I said Tullian has been making an awful lot of bad fruit.

    I also said that even if Tullian is an actual Christian (I have doubts that he is), that the Bible still says that based upon certain behaviors (adultery, consistent lying, etc), that a Christian must be judged by other Christians.

    For example (this is from 1 Cor 5:11):

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    The New Testament says certain behaviors disqualify a person from leadership.
    So even though Tullian can be restored to fellowship and forgiven by God (if he repents), the Bible does NOT say he can be a preacher again or hold other positions or not face consequences for his sins.

    The Bible does not teach that being a justified sinner, or being forgiven from sin, or that God’s grace, magically erases any and all ramifications from your behavior or choices in life, and that you get to skip along your merry way and do whatever you please.

    I don’t know why more Christians remain blind to this.

    But the ones who speak up in defense of preachers who err, or in favor of showing extreme latitude and acceptance towards pedophiles in church settings, constantly do this – I see it all the time in comments they leave on blogs such as this one, at WT’s, at T-W-W’s and others.


  70. Salty, re: grace … The grace by which God justifies us is also a grace by which he sanctifies us, a process that begins the moment we receive the gift of faith. (Paul’s argument in Galatians is that we are not only justified by grace thru faith, but sanctified by that same grace thru faith.) Reformed theology speaks of this as the duplex gratia Dei (double grace of God) and it looms large in Calvin’s theology. This sanctifying work of grace was absent in tulian’s psychologically-based, man-centered, commercialized “grace” which made it a false grace. By his words and actions (I’m referring to public acts as a “pastor”), tulian consistently demonstrated that he was NOT reformed (and if the PCA were faithful and wise, they would have never ordained him much less been interested in him). He was not reformed – not only because he did not study Scripture – but because he does not believe the word of God. He talked of ‘grace, grace’ without ever having received saving grace. I said things like this to people about him years ago but to no avail.


  71. Ingrid: Nov. 30th comment excellent. Wonder how many more victims out there and their stories also and ALL the lives effected along with the children; how far reaching and years of recovery? Wonder what Kim had to endure; in reading all this amazing no one committed suicide. Worse that these evil leaders didn’t look at fruit that allowed all the destruction to people/families (children) in it’s wake and the why (the REAL crux of the matter)! TT should NEVER be allowed in ministry and where is his Family in all of this (why isn’t any relative in Christendom benching him)?


  72. I made a comment on his FB page related to this and it was immediately deleted and I was blocked. Can’t have the brand tarnished I guess.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Brent, In 2014, when tulian got kicked out of the Gospel Coalition – for which I was so glad – I heard that he contacted some woman’s radio program to defend himself. I had never heard his voice prior to this and that act revealed his ungodliness and unbelief in Christ. At any rate, after he wrote a public letter with a bogus apology for calling some leaders of the Gospel Coalition liars, I surfed around and found some blog where people posted messages to him expressing their devotion. Two of the people were his mother and some other relative (grandmother?). They both basically said the same thing: “I’m so proud of you.” It was sickening. I posted the same reply to both women: “If repentance is a work of God’s grace in us and grace is favor from God that we do not deserve so that it excludes all pride, why would you say you’re proud of tulian?” My post AND the two women’s posts were taken down the next day. The entire Graham family are as fake and ignorant as the day is long.


  74. Dantespencer, I disagree with your last sentence. I have communicated with others in the Graham family (including Tullian’s older brother, Boz Tchividjian). They are not all fake and ignorant.


  75. “The grace by which God justifies us is also a grace by which he sanctifies us, a process that begins the moment we receive the gift of faith. (Paul’s argument in Galatians is that we are not only justified by grace thru faith, but sanctified by that same grace thru faith.) Reformed theology speaks of this as the duplex gratia Dei (double grace of God) and it looms large in Calvin’s theology. ”

    Lol! This twisted interpretation was a great excuse for Calvin to be the cruel despot his second time around in Geneva.

    I appreciate your warning that you have no volition in growing in maturity and wisdom.


  76. Julie, When I say ‘ignorant,’ I am referring to biblical ignorance (they don’t understand Scripture) and what I’ll call a spiritual ignorance (lack spiritual wisdom). If boz was not ignorant, he would have recognized the insincerity and carnality of tulian when he was a student at RTS. (Yes, if professors interacted with him, they should have spotted this as well… tulian’s self-assertion was all over that interview RTS published with him in 2007 (see 3 Jn 9; Matt 23:8-12). The other thing that stood out to me about that interview was this most simple fact: there was no actual conversion narrative. When and how did he come to faith? If you have been shown grace, you boast in grace!)


  77. Lydia, That Calvin was a despotic ruler of Geneva is but a slanderous myth. The actual history concerning Michael Servetus, for instance, was that Calvin requested that he not be put to death for heresy but Calvin’s plea was not granted because he did not hold power. If you read Calvin himself, you can easily see how the picture of Calvin as a power hungry dictator holds no water.

    re: sanctification being of grace, see Phil 1:6 & 2:12-13 as some key passages but as I said, Galatians is filled with it as this is the central issue in that letter. Calvin learned this from Augustine who said “Command what Thou will, and grant what Thy command.” Pelagians and semi-pelagians (roman catholics) hate this. Salvation is by grace along and sanctification is part of our sanctification – what Paul speaks of as “being saved” in 1 Cor 1:18; 15:2 and 2 Cor 2:15. This is why the sanctification of a believer is assured – because it is part of our salvation which we have received by grace alone. Paul gives thanks to God for churches growth in Christ because our sanctification is a work of God’s grace in us. If this were not so, Paul would not have thanked God but the Christians themselves! Grace exalts God and produces worship of him. If salvation and our “growth in grace” (2 Pet 3:18) were by works, then we ourselves would receive the credit and praise. That guy tulian espoused a false gospel because there really was no grace of sanctification.


  78. Everyone should read Sinclair Lewis’ novel “Elmer Gantry.” It shows that this pastoral womanizing phenomenon is nothing new and perfectly nails this type of character. If we read more literature, we would probably all be more self aware of this stuff – nothing new under the sun.


  79. Joel, Good point. Henry Ward Beecher (d.1887), who is the American source for evangelicalism’s centering on the love of God, committed adultery with a number of women in the church he pastored. He demonstrated that he himself had not received the love of God and did not know God. “No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; nno one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, olet no one deceive you. … Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. … No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” 1 Jn 3


  80. Admin note: I really want to keep the comments as close to the Tullian Tchividjian topic as we can. Many people are reading these posts and I want to make sure that other survivors, people connected with CRPC or Tullian, feel comfortable posting. They will be less likely to comment if the subject has switched to another topic. If you’d like to continue the conversation on John Calvin, please move it here: Off-Topic Discussion. Thank you!


  81. Dante, the “myth” meme comes from reformed history sources. They ignore the records, his second time around in Geneva and claim he still had no real power. The petite council records, for one, blow your theory. People will do and say many bizarre things to prop up cult of personality even with dead guys.

    Try Jesus instead of Calvin.


  82. All this tragedy because Rachel gave out her personal email address when she joined the church! So sad! I believe her when she says she never sought out or looked for TT in any way (neither was she ever physically attracted to him). One day, TT just decided to rummage through the church records and obtain her personal email address. Sounds like an unauthorized use of private information to me. Could this be a breech of confidentiality? Rachel did not furnish her personal email address to CRPC expecting to be personally contacted by TT. Like when you purchase something online. They request your phone number in the rare event they have a question about your order.

    I used to work for a company and it was strongly discouraged for management (the only individuals with access to employees’ phone numbers) to contact employees at home. Only in instances where it was your day off, and the store was busy, they might call to see if you wanted some extra hours. The workers generally welcomed such calls, as they presented the opportunity to earn extra cash, but for questions such as, “Where can I find such-and-such?” “How do I do this?” it was not allowed. My mother once became very upset with a teller at her bank because he researched her phone number in the bank’s system and called her at home to see if she would like to apply for a credit card. That is not why my mom gave the bank her phone number when she opened an account, and she felt this was a trespass. It’s like when you fill out the questionnaire at the doctor’s office. They want all of the patient’s contact info in the extreme case that if an appointment needs rescheduling or some other business-related issue needs addressing and trying to reach out by phone proves impossible (eg. cell turned off, no voicemail, disconnected/wrong number), there is still one last form of communication. The doctor is not going to email you on a personal level with a tweeted photo to chat about.

    It also struck Rachel as odd that she was the sole recipient of the email. Her husband had evidently provided his email address to the church as well, but was skipped over by TT (wonder why?) and TT publicly posted the picture of Rachel’s child on the internet without her permission (another violation of confidentiality) and then followed-up with a request for rehabilitation exercises. (“Here’s my private cell #, please text me the info, even though I already have a personal trainer and you’re a married woman, I’m a married man, and I have just the same access to YouTube [and the public library] as you do.”) By the way, when I held jobs at the school district and the County, employees with access to confidential data (such as addresses and phone numbers) were required to sign a document affirming that the information would NEVER be misused in any fashion. Any violation thereof was grounds for immediate dismissal.

    I wonder what sort of policy CRPC had regarding the safeguarding of confidential information (which should also preclude the pastor from posting photographs, taken in the church, of his five-year old congregant’s baptism without the parents’ permission).


  83. Stephanie, I would have been livid it my child’s picture was shown publicly without permission. But how can you get mad at your pastor who just baptized your kid? All he would have to do is say something nice about the child and that would suck most moms into the first step of his trap. And this is how it happens, baby steps, one after the other, until you find yourself in a relationship beyond your wildest dreams.


  84. Stephanie, you make some really important points.

    Why would any person in ‘authority’ who is a married male (and a ‘pastor’) think it appropriate to contact a female ‘church member’ without at least copying in her husband?

    It’s deliberate predatory behaviour.

    A ‘pastor’ would be more interested in coming alongside the husband to pray with him and help encourage him in the Lord.


    Not sliming on his wife behind the seeds and getting paid by him in the process.



  85. Dante, you sound like someone who has all the Reformed group think jargon down. Have heard it all million times. Not interested in that black hole today.


  86. Lydia, The Reformed faith has a high view of the word of God, studies the word of God and follows the word of God because the Reformed faith is about knowing and loving God who revealed himself in holy Scripture. There would be no Protestant faith if it were not for the reformation that the Lord brought about in the 16th century. All of this was absent in tulian which is why the PCA should have never permitted him to be ordained.

    [Admin note: deleted personal attack.]


  87. This is a request for the blog moderator to consider deleting the last three sentences of Dantes post at 8:58AM 12-11-16 which are a totally inappropriate personal attack.

    Lydia shouldn’t be treated like that, especially not here.

    Liked by 1 person

  88. Avid Reader,

    I agree with you. Even I fume at times, but I try to not overstep the boundaries (I rant, as Mark has jokingly said, within the point of discussion as best I can because this blog is serious stuff that actually affects and involves real people), But Dante’s attack is out of line, totally. Lydia has made wonderful, thought-provoking contributions for a long time and the attack on her is indecorous.


  89. Dante. Dante. Dante.

    you don’t know WHO the Word of God is.

    You and your Reformed buddies get off scrutinising words on a page.

    Jesus Christ IS the Word of God.


  90. That is not an attack, that is an exhortation. An attack is destructive, what I wrote is constructive. The NT replete with exhortations. An exhortation is ethical instruction to call one to obedience to the Lord in accord with Scripture and so grow in Christ. It’s about repentance from sin. One of the reasons tulian’s preaching (his brand) was false was because it was void of repentance and love for Christ. It was easy to see.


  91. Salt, Christ the word is known only by the written word. There is no separating of Christ from the inscripturated word. To dishonor and reject the verbal word of God is to dishonor the incarnate word of God.


  92. Gee, you miss a few hours and all sorts of things happen. I appreciate it, guys. Thanks for the support. I live at ground zero for Neo Calvinism and have followed the trajectory of Calvinism from Augustine to the latest resurgence so have heard it all and expect no less. Whatever it was. I even had the Presbyterian Seminary as a client years ago and we laughed about the social justice and frozen chosen wings of Calvinism Things have changed…..a lot. A lot.

    I honestly don’t care if someone is Reformed or not except when they start selling it or use it as excuse for totally depraved (unable) behavior or to defend old dead Tyrants. I don’t seek to sell my Pelagianism (wink) even though I believe that all adults, except the mentally challenged, can “choose” not to do evil to others.

    So thanks and back to the real reason people are here. Spiritual abuse.


  93. Speaking of Dante, I wonder if there isn’t a deep, deep, ring of hell reserved for those who, denying Jesus, set up a false god they name Grace, a false God in whom they fully trust, and who they constantly test by engaging in all manner of aberrant behavior.


  94. Gary (nice to “see” you, btw), Grace is such a beautiful name, I hate to see it getting thrown around to bully people to their way of doctrinal thinking. That doctrine then becomes an idol and where is Jesus?


  95. Gary, it is to the point that when I hear the word Grace from a professional paid Christian I think, uh oh, someone has been abused or is about to be. It has become nickname for ‘license to sin against others’ in large swaths of Christendom.

    Tullian, spouting Grace, tweeted he could do nothing good.

    We should have believed him.


  96. YES. Search the Scriptures because they testify about Him not because they give eternal life.

    There’s a huge difference between being notified about the Saviour (then walking in the Spirit with him) vs obsessing over the meaning of the words “gift” and “faith”…. whilst abusing your nearest and dearest whilst seated on the throne of Moses.

    I love the Scriptures but only because they speak of my Lord. I don’t worship words on a page.

    there are many believers who don’t love the Lord so much. But they just LOVE arguing about things relating to him. If they loved him they would not abuse others and hide behind his WORD


  97. Sounds like you blame him for it all. You give him money have sex with hi and he stayed at your house running around without a shirt on and you didn’t have any idea what was going on. You sound awfully smart to be so stupid. Once I would like to have you say you played a part in this. It takes two to tango.


  98. Joyce,

    None of this would have happened if Tullian hadn’t done it. He knew better. He was a pastor so God holds him to a higher level of responsibility than everyone else. The real question is—why did Tullian go after her and break up her marriage in the first place? He could have kept his shirt on, he just didn’t want to.

    Joyce, it’s very rude how you are blaming the victim here. What you don’t understand is that no one would ever be ripped off if con artists didn’t do their dirty work in the first place.

    Con artists are deceptive. They lead people astray. That’s why the burden of blame belongs on the con artists. Plus let’s not forget how the church puts so much pressure on women to be submissive and obedient and ignore their own discernment. Then when women are too submissive, they get blamed for doing exactly what they’ve been taught their whole life to do. There’s a lot that needs to be done with teaching women to be strong. We need more Rachel Denhollenders.


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