Christianity, Presidential Election, Evangelical Leaders Influence
How has this election affected you as a Christian? This has been the most difficult election I’ve ever seen in my life. As a Christian, I found it difficult to support either Republican or Democratic candidate for a variety of reasons. There were certain issues that greatly concerned me about both candidates, yet I felt compelled to do my civic duty and vote for the person whom I believed could best do the job of President — but even then, I still was not 100% settled with my vote.
My best friend and I were at odds. We got in many heated debates by phone, text, messaging, but neither one convinced the other to vote for the other side. Thankfully, this friend and I go back many years and we disagree on a lot of topics, but our love and respect for each other allows us to remain close friends.
But on Facebook, I have seen people lose friendships because of this kind of heated debating. It’s very sad.
Another issue that has disturbed me greatly is church leaders using their pulpit or platform to endorse candidates and cloak it with spiritual verbiage to imply that God would want His people to vote a particular way. We saw this from Wayne Grudem, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, and others. I am uncomfortable with this because they are using their power and influence to steer people to their thoughts and ideas, rather than encouraging people to use their own critical thinking skills and independent thought.
Yesterday, I saw a friend confess on Facebook that she voted a certain way. She felt the need to justify her vote for Trump, but was now afraid about what that might mean for the future.
Each of us had our own reasons for voting the way we did. Some people are single-issue voters, and that issue is often pro-life within the Christian community. I used to always vote pro-life because to me it said that if someone valued life in the womb, they would obviously value life outside the womb. I’m not so sure I believe that anymore after seeing my loud and obnoxious ex-pastor standing on the street corner yelling at pregnant women when they enter an abortion clinic, yet he failed to provide consistent and real help to a woman with children who was suffering ongoing domestic violence in her home. His actions showed that he was only selectively pro-life and I cannot stand that kind of hypocrisy.
One key issue I had to emotionally contend with was Trump’s misogynist comments and especially the crude words that were released about how he gloated about sexually pursuing married women, kissing them or “grabbing their pussy,” without consent. Although I have never experienced something like that, many women have, and it dawned on me that every time these sexual abuse survivors looked at Trump, those tapes of his words could play in their minds and cause emotional harm as they relive their own sexually abusive experience.
The same could also be said about looking at Hillary Clinton. I think some sexual abuse survivors could look at her and how it was reported that she treated her husband’s sexual abuse survivors. Survivors could also have difficulty knowing that Bill Clinton was once again in the white house (not as president, this time). So, either candidate could bring back unwanted memories to the forefront for the next four years. In both cases, women were devalued and used for men’s sexual gratification.
There are many reasons why Christians are upset this election season. After seeing quite a few posts on Facebook telling others to stop talking about the election, I posted this on my own Facebook wall:
If you are telling someone who voted for HRC to suck it up and let it go, and quit complaining about the election results, that is not helpful. This was a very emotional and intense election with mud slinging in all directions.
If you are unable to allow someone to express their anger or sadness on their own Facebook wall as they grieve their loss, just unfollow them for a few days.
Even better, instead of telling them to stop, why not ask them what this loss represents for them. Come into their world and attempt to understand. You may find you actually agree with their perspective after hearing their story. This is a time to stop, listen, and try to understand each other as we move forward. That is how we can best unify and help get our country on the right track.
One of the reasons why my good friend and I have respect for each other is that we have dug deep to understand the reasons we voted for our candidates. It makes sense, based on what is most dear to her, why she voted the way she did. I can respect her decision, but certainly don’t have to agree with it. Neither one of us is right or wrong, we just made the best choices we could based on what was most important to us.
There are a lot of feelings going around: uncertainty, excitement, anger, sadness, etc. I’d like to use this post as an opportunity to air what you’ve been feeling about this election. Have you been upset about Christian leaders telling you how to vote? How has Christian evangelicalism influenced the vote this election? How are you feeling about your vote now that it is all said and done? Do you have regrets? What are your fears and concerns? Are you satisfied with the results?
Now, this is not going to be a place to debate politicians. I will be very heavy handed with the delete button if I see it go that direction. I mainly want to provide this opportunity to share from your heart your feelings and concerns because I think there are a lot of people who have not had a safe place to do so.
I like what Mr. Rogers said about emotions and expressing them, and that is why I decided to allow this post on a normally taboo subject here.
Let’s be sure to show each other kindness and respect and try to understand where people are coming from in your responses. Thank you!
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Bike Bubba, do you think that coloring books and therapy dogs are a sign of weakness? I just had my dark chocolate fix. It’s part of my self-care regimen. Do you see me as weak? I don’t care if you do. I wear big girl panties, but I’m just wanting to know why the putdowns when talking about triggering and the way people cope with stressors?
The emotions have to go someplace. Wouldn’t you rather the destructive protestors color in their books, or have therapy dogs rather than harm people’s businesses, vehicles, property?
I think in general, Christians are uncomfortable with feelings and the expression of them. How would people respond watching Jesus show anger or sadness in our world today?
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Carmen,,
I except that Trump and Clinton were are only 2 choices,, I accept that Trump’s behavior is wrong,, there is nothing one sided admitting that,, I preferred Rand Paul.
This thread is pro-Clinton,, I had no idea why, other than Trump is bad..
Would you pick Ted Cruz or Rand Paul over Hillary Clinton,, the way this is going my impression is you’d choose Clinton.
What about Cathy McMorris-Rogers over Clinton? Probably Clinton.
I’d pick Elizabeth Warren over Clinton,,
I have read your opinions,, and you have read mine.. I have had very little response from her foundation receiving millions from Middle Nations who hate America, Christians, Israel and abuse their women.
By appearance you are insulating from your mind, the fact that she is as toxic as Trump,,
She also lacks an Economic expertise to embrace capitalism as she is a Progressive with Socialist leanings.
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Thank you, Daisy. I completely agree with that. When locker room sex talk crosses the line into non-consensual sex, it is no longer normal.
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Just so you’re aware, Carmen is Canadian. She didn’t have a choice in the election. That doesn’t mean that many from the international community don’t have an opinion. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said that “We look forward to working very closely with President-elect Trump, his administration, and with the United States Congress in the years ahead, including on issues such as trade, investment, and international peace and security,” Still, another Canadian friend indicated to me that the feeling was rather sober in her area following the US election. We have, I think, more impact that we should on the rest of the world. People are concerned.
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Been There,,,
Thank you,,
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JA, perhaps it would be instructive to see what Mayo has to say about PTSD, and whether what we see bears any resemblance to actual PTSD symptoms.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/basics/definition/con-20022540
Self-harm and individual aggression are signs; political action/group action is not. Definitely not blocking highways and burning other peoples’ cars and businesses. Moreover, one of the best treatments is controlled exposure–creating a “safe space” does not seem to help.
My conclusion is that the vast majority of the protesters are not exhibiting symptoms of PTSD, and moreover that those trying to create a “safe space” for them are objectively harming them by rewarding their behavior.
And, yes, in certain cases, it’s worth a bit of mockery. A lawyer who cannot handle the results of an election is like a surgeon or butcher who faints at the sight of blood. There is a point for sympathy for those who genuinely have a problem, and there is another point to say “you know, if you can’t handle this kind of thing, maybe law isn’t your calling”, or “let’s get some perspective here; neither the sexual harasser nor the enabler of a serial rapist has power to eliminate state laws against sexual assault.”
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Bubba,,
These protests’ are well organized and are being funded,, organizers are getting paid, but by who, some suggests’ George Soros.
Oddly, we have a sitting President giving a speech in Germany, condoning the protests’, when he should be making a harsh stance, where crimes are being committed like in the Portland area, they should’ve brought in the National Guard.
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Mark, would you expect anything less of a President whose job prior to politics was “community organizer”? If indeed Soros or other benefactors have funded the riots, it is my hope and prayer that good lawyers will make them feel the pain for what they’ve done to a lot of innocents. I would dare suggest that criminal charges could be appropriate as well.
And to be perfectly clear; I am not trying to mock those who legitimately suffer PTSD from real sexual assaults. I just don’t think the anti-Trump riots are inspired by this.
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Bubba,,
You or I, have never mocked those suffering from PTSD,, and PTSD sufferers in my view aren’t organizing these riots.
You are right, about Law Suits,, I called my US Senator (Sullivan) and told him to pursue who organized these riots,, because they are an accessory to any crimes committed and should be prosecuted and go to jail.
I don’t minimize those on this thread that suffer from PTSD,, but somehow I think most will still would support Hillary even if Cruz or Rand Paul was the Republican Nominee,, because Hillary matches their Liberal Ideology,, though she treated the women victimized by her husband, like they were “deplorable’s.
I’d like to continue reading articles,, but when it comes to politics, I don’t need to feel like I’m an angry white man, because I can’t vote for a corrupt female Socialist.
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Prosecution has to happen at the local or state level, and I’m guessing a lot of mayors and governors aren’t going to push it very hard. It’s a shame, but I’m having trouble imagining Libby Schaaf in Oakland, or Jerry Brown in Sacramento, aggressively going after rioters. They are a big part of the voter base out there. Same thing in Portland–and those are the places where you’ve got the best chance of catching a “riot sponsor” red-handed.
So I won’t be holding my breath, but I’ll be delightfully surprised if something happens.
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Well if the organizers are led by international or demestic money that crosses state line, then it is a matter for the Justice Department or the FBI,,
Of course Loretta Lynch won’t do anything about it,, she probably is enjoying the riots as she could give a crap about the law.
She may need to come clean about that secret meeting on the plane with Bill Clinton, but she’ll plead the 5th.
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“I can’t vote for a corrupt female Socialist”
corrupt
female
socialist
3 strikes, huh?
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Shy 1,, thanks for the observation,,
I couldn’t vote for a corrupt male socialist,, either.
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Sorry to be late to this game, but here is my take.
Been an Evangelical since the early 80’s. It was one of the first moves I made after moving here from Korea as an impressionable teenager. What drew me to Evangelicalism was the idea of loving Jesus and living for him 7 days a week, not just on Sundays.
Another draw was patriotism. As a new immigrant, I wanted to be American and assimilate into this great nation. Evangelicalism is as American as an apple pie. Living for Jesus and loving America sounded like killing two birds with one stone. Sign me up!
Fast forward 35 years and donations to various Evangelical causes and tithes totaling well into six figures. I am completely done with Evangelical Christianity. Little did I realize that politicization and patriotic fervor which drew me would eventually be the poison.
I’ve been asking myself. Is there an “anti-sinner’s prayer” I can pray to officially deconvert and cut myself loose from Evangelicalism completely? Can somebody ask Franklin Graham to write one? I’d totally do it in a heart beat. And please, don’t give me the “don’t throw out the baby out with the bathwater” bullsh*t. There is no “baby” in the bathwater to speak of in this smoldering toxic dump that is American Evangelicalism.
This quote is from Leo Tolstoy dated 130 years ago in Russia. He might have as well said this about the American Evangelical church.
When the Communists took over, they dismantled the Russian Orthodox church along with the monarchy. Since the Church and the monarchy were one and the same, they really had no choice but to destroy both. Today, right wing conservatism and Evangelicalism are one and the same. They both deserve funerals.
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I don’t know if anyone followed Michael Spencer’s blog when he was alive. Just right before his death, he penned this piece called The Coming Evangelical Collapse published by Christian Monitor. It’s a sobering piece. Everyone should read it.
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Well David, we shall see what happens now that Evangelicals got the ‘savior’ they were looking for. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty. 😦
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I just deleted a couple comments that were filled with links. This is not the post to convince people of one way or another. It is for people to unload how this election has affected them. In other words, you cannot argue with how someone has felt. 🙂 👏👏👏👍💡
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Thanks for sharing that David. Interesting read. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if much of it comes to pass. The religious clubs are BS. It’s the people which matter to me. Individuals who love God and want to love others.
Evangelicalism might collapse. People might cease religious club membership and attendance. But God still has his believers scattered.
Life continues.
Watching and waiting for ‘that blessed hope’.
I hope the whole system collapses.
It’s not as if the world and God can’t see how hideous it all is.
It’s Christians who are deceived into thinking the Christian Industrial Complex is lovely.
Ask everyone else and they’ll tell you it’s rotten to the core.
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Shy1,
Thank-you for mentioning Christian Healthcare Ministries, it is certainly worth checking out as another option as our policy ends in December 2016. Appreciate any encouragement at this point.
David Cho,
Your comment is compelling and you speak the truth of the state of American evangelicalism. Appreciate your candor. Much of evangelicalism teaches the concept of tithing ten percent of everything one earns. Under Jesus, the New Covenant, this of course is a lie, but I still sat under that teaching for years and years, being made to feel guilty by the Old Covenant sympathizers for not meeting their standards. Human lordship over others doth have its privileges in keeping the sheep fenced in. My former pastor boasted and bragged of how he and his wife even tithed on their life insurance policy in addition to their gross income (they were both salaried by the state church system, receiving their life insurance from the same religious institution)…..I’m sure they’ll be first in heaven and the rest of us will be washing their pious hands and feet for them.
And I cannot help but agree with you concerning the state of evangelical Christianity, for it has sold out to patriotism/nationalism, combining the church with the state to accomplish what is called dominionist theology; they believe through human effort, they can establish the kingdom of god here on this earth.
I here this statement on a regular basis coming out of the mouths/hearts of conservative church goers surrounding me, “What we need is another war to stimulate the economy.” This is coming from the evangelical industrial complex, those who attend conservative religious institutions on a regular basis who CLAIM to be born again of the Spirit of our LORD.
How does one respond to such an atrocious statement? Who, pray tell, should sacrifice their lives to stimulate the economy here in this country? I have had close family members involved in the military, so the welfare of human life becomes an emotional topic for me.
Concerning Franklin Graham and the Graham dynasty. Did our LORD ever desire for those who call themselves preachers or teachers, to use His Name to gain vast amounts of wealth, prestige and popularity? Is this really the Way of Jesus……seems to me in understanding our Scriptures correctly, those who preached Jesus as the only Way, were persecuted, tortured and murdered. Early Christians didn’t have an easy life here on earth, nor did they die wealthy. Is it quite possible, Jesus left the evangelical buildings/movements long ago….I believe so.
Mr. Cho, I also believe Michael Spencer is correct in stating “Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can’t articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.” The false gospel of health, wealth, and prosperity plus dominionism entered the church long ago…..we call it evangelicalism now days. Maybe Creflo Dollar isn’t the only wolf preacher man in sheep’s clothing that should include the word ‘Dollar’ in his name. There are legions of ‘Dollar preachers and teachers out there’ prostituting the Name of our Savior as their sustenance.
At the end of the day, if Scriptures are understood correctly, in context, Jesus and His disciples/Apostles weren’t patriots, nor were they engaged in nationalism, nor did they teach that “the state is the way, the truth and the life.” And they more than likely didn’t have a Roman flag placed amongst them when they worshiped the LORD either.
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David Cho: Like your comment “They both deserve funerals”. Sad isn’t it? Think Leonard Ravenhill wrote it best in “Why Revival Tarries & America is Too Young to Die”! Election results: are going to be interesting. Just think their is so much in-house fighting and does the system really work for the people or for a Gov’t that’s self-serving much like the false church?
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Bike Bubba-NOVEMBER 16, 2016 @ 3:31 PM (said that in previous blog that something was really wrong and it got deleted and looks like still going on (heart issues were REALLY being revealed). I was spewing a different issue so recognized wounds/hurt&broken heart and something had no control over (have church abuse issues along with so many other items). Can’t put my finger on his root issue but some things are only broken through prayer and fasting as Derek Prince teaches; wise counselor can get to the root of the problem if we allow the healing. No one thought when they got married they would end up divorced or wouldn’t have gotten married and yet what were the reasons we picked those people (familiar spirits?). There are Normal and Healthy Women and or Men that will get you healed up from wrong choices, childhoods, anything! Would go see Herb Goldberg & Susan Forward Ph.D’s they don’t mince it and are wise!
Muff Potter: Worked in a very former prominent Business Corpse (Corporation) that was locker-room talk the whole time there (NOTHING, NOTHING in life prepared you for human depravity of you would call me a liar on conversations, items done, debauchery, perversion; it was “animal house” in suits and worse (at one time 1 of the top 10 Companies in Forbes 500 List and now no longer); it was like a war zone in perversion. I do NOT know what their upbringing was to be such walking dead=Suits that had no character, morals of who they slimed and thought it was hilarious; (have book offers=WHY WOULD I WANT TO RE-LIVE THAT HELL let alone put my brain though the car wash of imagery we had to endure due to VERY BAD/POOR MANAGEMENT*! Could honestly say, the whole body of the fish stunk from the head and boy did it stink big time. Ironic, some young man (early 40’s) yesterday was telling me about his current work place (huge corporation) and all that went on there and meaning and cry IT’S GOTTEN WORSE; don’t want to slime anyone (this guy could write the book on perversion 101, 102, 103, 104 and beyond=such human emptiness. Told him just a few of my experiences over 30 years ago and he thought the people where psychotic and per the reviews: “snakes in suits” confirms. All I can think of is Einstein’s definition of EVIL is “void and without God”. Sometimes I would think what were their wives and or children like if so depraved the fine line of what they did to other people as grown adults.
mkmfrommnandwi: Agree with you, thanks for sharing; it’s 2 Corinthians 1:3-7 (actually read the whole chapter)!
*Worked for another Major Corporation and that Management was STELLAR, very respectful and everyone and allowed no shenanigans whatsoever remember
Stu & Hal with great memories and affection they had STERLING character, morals and were great family men and so they are out there (looked them up and sent them a glorious THANK YOU)! Companies should hire them to run their Personnel. AWESOME AND AMAZING MEN=WONDERFUL!
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I usually don’t comment here often but felt that the record needed to be set straight on who was a far better candidate, “in my humble opinion”. I followed this campaign like a hawk and although I strongly condemn any words Trump said in the paSt what Ed said is true about men- they do say these things. I just remember college days and knew this kind of talk was prevalent, however men usually did not act on it. However, Hillary actually condone her OWN husband Bubba Bill in actual rape and pedophile activities with Jeffery Epstein on “orgy island” in the Bahamas. My dad knew Bill Clinton from our Arkansas days; we knew the type of person he was. Big difference in my opinion between what someone says and what someone does. Hilary supported these things and also participated in sexual activities herself they say (we will see when all the wikileaks come out in court). This woman is truly horrible but the news covered her and lied for her. No way in heavens would I have voted for this despicable woman and I am a woman who voted for Trump! In my opinion if a woman hears a man talk like Trump did then tell the guy off; men need to know that women can be strong enough to face their ridiculous sex banter and that they are being immature brats.
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This is just one of the many info concerning the Clintons
ronaldwederfoort.wordpress.com/2016/11/01/bombshell-hillary-clinton-pedophile-sex-ring-continues-to-be-exposed-by-insiders
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I think you’d better trust him only. Those ‘news’ sources are bogus. Oh my google.
😦
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@Carmen
In fairness, I don’t think Evangelicals see Trump as their savior. “Hillary is much worse” is their excuse.
Years from now, *if the Trump presidency falters badly, that excuse simply won’t fly. Hillary, like other losers of presidential elections will fade away. The Trump presidency will have to stand on its own. If Trump falters very badly, then what? Still scream “Hillary is much worse”?
Without looking up, can anyone name who Harding, Buchanan, Grant and Andrew Jackson defeated before their disastrous presidencies started? Off the top of your head, do you remember who Nixon defeated? After all, he served in many of our lifetimes. Is anyone screaming Hubert Humphrey would have been much worse? That’s what I am talking about.
Nobody will remember Hillary except for Christian grifters like Franklin Graham and John MacArthur in whose heads Hillary will live forever rent free. But everybody will remember that Evangelical Christians played a crucial role in foisting Donald Trump on the world. So good luck with the “Hillary is worse!” excuse years from now.
*I say “if” because I am not going to assume he will fail and I Trump to succeed for the sake of the country and the world.
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I appreciate your comments, Katy. Well said.
I was watching this debate between Roland Reagan and George Bush Sr back in 1980 on Youtube.
Keep in mind that these two men were vying for the Republican presidential nomination in front of a Republican audience. Also keep in mind that today, Ronald Reagan is held up as the gold standard of what a God fearing American leader should be by Evangelicals.
Guess how many times these two men invoked God and faith: ZERO*. Not once. Nada. The Reagan-Bush debate gives you a glimpse of what national politics was like right before the era of the Religious Right.
Take any of the Republican primary debates from this year and watch the candidates scrambling around to out-Jesus each other. It’s sickening. Take this one example from the first GOP debate. This stuff may be music to Evangelical Christians’ ears. Me? I die a little on the inside and throw up in my mouth.
Their faces should be next to the word sanctimony in every dictionary, but you gotta hand it to them for proficiency in Christianese. They knows the audience.
Interestingly enough, Reagan was the first president to have divorced. Thrice married Donald Trump will be the second president to have divorced (two divorces!). Great job, Evangelicals. “Family values” indeed.
*Unless somebody can prove me otherwise by slugging through the 90 minute clip. I couldn’t find a transcript online to do a word search.
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Sorry, I meant to comment with my FB account. The post above is mine.
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So my feelings on the election have moved over the last few days from sadness to incredulity. Having some private conversations with religious conservative friends, I have been reading some of the material that informs them. What I’m seeing is a lot of opinion without evidence or facts given to support it. A simple google search for news articles on the people, organizations, and events the articles refer to reveals the situation to be different than they describe. In other words, a very little bit of fact-checking debunks what I’ve read thus far. I even got into the subject of people who have “died under mysterious circumstances” connected with the Clintons. Snopes has a long article with the facts on each case. Just examining news articles & death certificates makes it clear. Love them or hate them, the Clintons have been investigated 3 times, and there have been no charges.
I have been reading up on all sorts of things. People are filled with fear about “the gay agenda” but the ‘facts’ they are basing their fear on were invented by a psychologist named Paul Cameron (Family Research Institute), who was kicked out of the psychological association because of his many lies and fabrications. (Other founding members of The Family Research Council include Tony Perkins, who was suspended from the police force for dishonesty and, later, was caught filing false disclosure forms to hide white supremacist donations to a US Senate campaign he worked on; and George Alan Rekers, anti-gay activist who turned out to be flagrantly gay in his private life.) I ask myself, how in the world does one serve God by telling or living lies?
People are convinced that “the family” and their faith are “under attack” but they can’t articulate to me how someone else living differently constitutes an attack on them.
The thing that is most dispiriting to me is when people are so convinced that “the media” is biased, they are unwilling to accept any source for facts, which leaves them in a helpless position to fact-check anything.
So I have now moved from sadness to scratching my head in bewilderment.
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Shy 1,,
Hard the believe all the rhetoric that media spills out,, as for media bias, it does exists’ on both sides.
As for the reason nearly 90% of American counties voted for Trump, the DNC admitted that Hillary lost the Middle Class, because they voted with their wallet tired of barely making it living paycheck to paycheck,, Hillary admitted to embracing the status quo, without an economic vision.
My wife and I, helped an abused young mother, with no economic hope who’s purchasing power shrank over the course of 8 years.. She didn’t need a candidate embracing the status quo with no economic vision because quite frankly Hillary isn’t a capitalist.
Trump’s economic vision may be too little too late, but his economic vision surpasses Hillary’s.
Poverty and lack of opportunity. is no friend to an abused woman.
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I haven’t read any of the posts that were on here since I was last here. I’m afraid if I read any of them, I may get sucked into arguing or debating people, and I don’t want to go there. It may be best if I don’t read them?
I hope I did not offend or hurt anyone’s feelings with my comments. That was not my intent.
I don’t think Ed ever visited again to respond to my comments, or if so, his comments weren’t allowed to appear(?)
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Daisy,,
I wasn’t offended by your words.
I was a little surprised with the diverse opinions and ideologies in this thread. I’m sure some were offended by my reasoning of voting for Trump, for which I apologize.
Wanting migration to be legal, safe and orderly or a President with an actual economic plan that lifts some Gov’t oversight on Industry is something Trump embraced, actually so did the markets. I
I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders has been defined as racism by the left and that is fake news.
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oops I need to amend :
I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders has been defined as racism by the left and that is fake news
and change it to
I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders as patriotic but many in the media has defined it as racism by the left and that is fake news
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@Mark
The question posed by Julie Anne is “How has this election affected you as a Christian?” (emphasis mine).
Pros and cons of the Trump and Clinton candidacies have been discussed and debated ad nauseum. I have heard every point you raise in favor of Trump. But how has this election affected you as a Christian? That is the question at hand here.
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David Cho,,
To be referred as an angry white man who voted for Trump on this thread, has caused me as a Christian, be somewhat defensive, somewhat judgmental. Judgmental in the sense that many in this thread seem to ignore that if we continued with the status quo that things weren’t going to improve. But also I’m judging the rioters for not being law abiding.
Then there are those in this thread that seem to ignore that we should secure the borders in order to have legal, safe and orderly migration by attaining a green card is ignored,, in fact those of us that want our borders secured are part of the deplorable and racist (which I’m not)
I think how this is effected me, is I’m admitting my sin, judging those who magnify Trumps issues and minimize or insulate Hillary’s issues. Maybe as a Christian I’m failing to see the trade off of voting for Hillary over Trump, not seeing if either are practicing Christians.
I see Liberals ignoring fiscal and pro-economics, who instead mainly vote more with their feelings, Ideology that actually enables the poor, in order to defend abortion (which Trump will not change) in some cases simply voting for Hillary, strictly for gender.
She has accepted millions of dollars in her Foundation. from Middle East nations that hate Gays, Christians, Americans, Israel and use Sharia Law to justify abusing women. Why would they donate money to a foundation unless they were purchasing influence in American Policy
She is no champion to a lot of abused women,, actually retaliating against the women her husband abused.
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I’m not Mark (really!), but how it’s affected me is way back. Given two unpalatable candidates, one of whom was almost certain to become President, it brought me to my knees in prayer that they would come to faith and repentance, and got me to think of what is really important here. I also became somewhat quiet as those supporting Mrs. Clinton started to automatically accuse those who did not support her of sexism, racism, and a host of other isms.
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“Pink Mark chiming in :)” As a Christian, I think that our society has become increasingly isolated and fractured. In a sense, I think the government has done too thorough of a job of regulating and managing society, to the point that we have completely arms-length dependencies on each other.
I used to be hard-core conservative, and I’ve moved towards quasi-Libertarian, but I still have some fundamental struggles about how the battle lines have been drawn. For example:
Can we provide a “safety net” without creating generational poverty?
Did Social Security and Welfare create a disincentive to invest in the upbringing of the next generation?
Can we deregulate business while still protecting their customers and employees?
Is income inequality really the result of rollbacks in government regulation, or is income inequality due to the fact that excessive regulation has squashed the “American Dream”?
Who should we be more afraid of, Google, or the NSA?
Interestingly, there is a big debate over a road change in town. Essentially, the change is supposed to improve traffic flow by removing lanes. Based on my studies, I’m not surprised that the opposite of “common sense” is really the best, but it’s interesting that traffic flow is more a factor of “making sure drivers are on task” than “making sure any obstacles to traffic flow are removed”.
I wonder if we need that revolution in our society – an understanding that complacency is a bigger enemy than safety, perhaps? I don’t know.
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I had another thought. People are really flabbergasted by the traffic engineers. One insightful comment was, “how can you make a road safer by removing the guardrails?”
I think the response to that is, it seems completely paradoxical, but then, those who have adopted the “safety in danger” approach to road design have greatly improved the safety of the infrastructure.
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David Cho, my parents’ generation was a generation where “religion belonged in the closet”. Politicians were hesitant to say about their personal faith in a public forms. As I recall, John McCain refused to talk about his personal faith, and that didn’t go over will with the Evangelicals. Even James Dobson refused to endorse him, until he chose Sarah Palin as his running mate.
This election has pretty much just confirmed the hypocrisy of mainstream Evangelicalism. Their leaders were falling over each other to endorse Trump, who, as it has become more and more apparent, would say anything to get more votes, regardless of his beliefs.
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@Mark (pink)
Is that really a generational thing? What drew me to Evangelicalism was its adherents’ willingness to talk up their faith in daily life, not just in a religious context.
“How is your walk in the Lord?”
“Have you spent time in the Word?”
“When did you give your life to Christ?”
You know, Christianese. I wrote about it here awhile ago, if I may shamelessly plug it. I am guessing Christianese is a product of the Jesus movement of the 70’s, not of old time religion.
Christianese makes me cringe now. I die a little on the inside when Evangelicals after dishing out venomous tirades directed at “liberals” and “the left” and pivot back to Christianese to show their “spiritual side” before resuming the next round of angry vitriol.
Leaving the Evangelical bubble has helped me gain sanity, but today politicians are speaking in fluent Christianese. It may be music to Evangelicals who feel flattered by powerful people who speak their language. Getting your ears tickled much? (II Timothy 4:7). The toxic fumes from the Evangelical bubble have gotten out to grace the world. Not sure if this is what Paul meant by the “flagrance of Christ.”
Come quickly, Lord Jesus. I can’t take it any more!
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I think with how intertwined “American Civil Religion” has been with our secular culture, I think there has been the counterpoint of having a Christian jargon that has developed as an attempt to separate those who are Christian because they are American from those who are Christian because they follow Christ.
My mom talked about being “born again”, and people who came to the door were satisfied with that response, or if that wasn’t good enough, they would be satisfied with the date of her conversion. Evangelism Explosion it was two questions – if you die tonight where are you going, and if the answer is Heaven, the second question was, when you show up in Heaven, and God asks you “why should I let you in?” what would you say?
One thing that I’m hopeful of with the secularization of our culture is that there will be a lack of incentive to “sound Christian”.
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David, as I’m sure you know, you ain’t the only guy who cringes at Christianese–but you do have a more polite name for it than I’ve used at times, sad to say. Suffice it to say that getting tired of “christianese” and “Jesus Junk” is thankfully not the same as tiring of faith.
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How about Self-Righteousnese? That sounds more descriptive.
Christianese used to be confined to the Evangelical subculture bubble which the general American public used to be unfamiliar with. And I have the if-it-works-for-you attitude. Once removed from the bubble, I didn’t have to deal with it.
Now it is out in the open. Politicians use it in speeches and debates to pander to Evangelicals. Foxnews routinely features commentators fluent in it. Rightwing blogs are full of it. It is pervasive. Remember Dobson speaking of Trump as a “baby Christian”? The only knock was that he was too immature in the Lord to “speak our language.” Secularization of America, my a**.
There is no doubt Christian grifters like James Dobson is pleased with themselves for having made disciples of
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@Mark
Good observations. It was a way to distinguish themselves from “cultural” Christians. “Just because you are in a garage, that doesn’t mean you are a car!”
Yep. I am a huge fan of secularization. Secularization secularizes this country that was never really Christian to begin with.
Go Secularizers Go!!!
Sounds like a great name for a football team.
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@David, I don’t get why Christians haven’t been wiser about Christianese. I know a lot of people who have been sucked into shady MLMs (e.g. Amway) because they used language designed to sound Christian. I know one in particular that is pretty shameless. It’s almost to the point of being a counterfeit church. Regular Wednesday night sales rallies, quarterly conferences with WORSHIP SERVICES. And yet, they’re selling product. If you’re a Christian, this is marketed as a way to make converts. A company everyone can believe in.
I’ve grown up with Christian friends and acquaintances who have tried to bring that crap into the church, as if every church member had some spiritual obligation to join this amazing company founded on Christian values, or buy products at 2x-3x the costs because it’s the “right thing”.
I don’t want to make broad generalizations, but I’m guessing people who fall for that kind of messaging are the people who can be counted on to pull a lever because “James Dobson” endorsed Trump, or because Trump threw out enough Christianese to make them think that he’s all about restoring Christendom.
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@Daisy:
Another glimpse into the ManaGAWD’s own sexual fantasies/kinks?
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@DavidCho:
And that is the difference between a Technical Language and a Mystery Language.
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Further developments after a year-long gap:
Remember ChapmanEd up above?
He’s been trolling Wondering Eagle (Eagle’s blog on WordPress) every time Eagle gets political, and comes on foaming at the mouth with lots of chapters-and-verses. His most memorable tag line so far?
“I GIVE DONALD TRUMP PRAISE AND ADORATION.”
— ChapmanEd24
A fulfillment of Revelation 13:4?
“And they follow the Trump, and Worship him, saying ‘Who is like unto The Trump? Who can stand against Him?'”
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I think I just vomited in my mouth. . . egads. 😦
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Whoa! for real?
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A deaconess and church board member from my former cult church stated “Donald Trump is just like Cyrus in the Old Testament and will bring a spiritual “awakening” to our country.” No kidding, she actually said that, as I shook my head “no, no, No!”
She is a student of Lance Wallnau’s “prophetic ministry in addition to all of those associated with those wolves in sheep’s clothing……including Trump’s favorite pastor(?) Paula White.
And for all of the lectures I receive from these self righteous right wing nuts, including being indoctrinated into the Focus on the Family arm of the law, these people sure look the other way regarding the immorality of Donald Trump and his mouth (which comes from the true nature of his heart.) I wonder if James Dobson’s teachings have changed to accommodate the fruits of Donald Trump?
Wow….now Trump is a modern day Cyrus!!!! (?) (?) 😦
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I can understand the sort of real-politik that would cause you to choose someone imperfect or even immoral because of policy choices they would make. Or economics. I can see a rational for voting because you think the ‘other side’ would make choices you disagree with or a lesser of two evils argument.
What I can not even fathom is why anyone would vote for Donald Trump or promote him out of some idea that he is the more moral ‘Christian’ choice. I am absolutely BAFFLED by people who talk like he is sent by God. Seriously.
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Exactly Lea! You couldn’t have stated a more perfect truth. Within the conservative cult of Christianity, church goers actually believe that jesus is a republican, OR, if He were walking the earth today, He would be voting “conservative.”
Sat in an Assembly of God church one Sunday, sitting under a guest pastor, who lived and witnessed for Jesus Christ in one of the dangerous areas of Chicago. As he spoke, he carefully segued into the political nature of Christ, stating, “As you know, if Jesus were amongst us today, He would not be calling Himself a Democrat.” Audience response……laughing, some applauding, some cheering, and lots of heads bobbing up and down. The speaker then stated, “But I have an additional truth for you, if Jesus were amongst us today, He would not be a Republican either, for no political party is the perfect reflection of Christ.”
Audience response, complete silence….you could hear a cockroach breathing, except for one female who laughed and said aloud, “Finally, someone who speaks the truth about our LORD Jesus Christ.!” This man “gets it.”
I voted for Trump, not because of his amazing faith in Jesus, the Christ, not because he was the “lesser of two evils – hear that one a lot coming from “the churched” “, or because he has great “locker room talk against women, living a vastly immoral lifestyle,” no….I voted for him as a voice against the current health care system for our family was dropped from our health insurance company. We were not “risky liabilities” for we have been healthy our whole lives, but as a result of their “restructuring” process, after spending an exorbitant amount of money on premiums all of those years and receiving little in return due to our good health. That system failed me and my family, tremendously.
Checked the Scriptures and found that Jesus didn’t vote for anyone in the last Roman election :)!
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Anyone else shaking their head at Katy’s ‘logic’?? Jesus H.
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Carmen – if a particular policy, from either left of right, has kicked you in the teeth it seems reasonable to vote for someone who might put it right. This despite the very obvious character flaws of the candidate in question here. There will always be a trade off between a man’s policies and aspects of his character you may find offensive.
Where the policies and character begin and end will depend on the individual conscience of the voter.
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Ah, I see. It obviously doesn’t matter how many other people get ‘kicked in the teeth’ as long as you and yours don’t. Got it.
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Guess some folks didn’t care about me/my precious family getting kicked below the teeth over and over again…..still paying for it by working hard and minding my own business, while striving to remain as healthy as possible
It appears that compassion and empathy are rare within the political industrial complex, not limited to a certain political party……and frankly, I did not see any light within the unfortunate democratic presidential candidate either.
Cultural Marxism is not my cup of tea, logically stated of course.
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The problem is, Carmen, that ‘other people’ can vote in a govt that does very real harm to a section of the population. Again, voting is a trade off between your own good as you see it, and how this affects others around you.
I would imagine in the individualistic, and let’s be honest very selfish societies in the Anglo-Saxon world, people generally think of their own interests first. It’s a weakness of democracy.
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Thankfully, we live in an area where individuals still have the freedom to vote. This ‘right’ has not been vanquished as of yet, whether fair or fraudulent at the ballot counting ceremonies. It is still in existence.
And also, thankfully, the commenters above do not know of my personal circumstances and would not have a clue as too the giving done by my family or me personally, concerning the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the hopeless. Nor is it common knowledge on this comment thread, how we minister to folks, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others, for He is still above politics and King over all. Giving is important to this believer; no longer under the tithe, although that could be applicable given my work situation.
Jesus is still King over this individual :-). The LORD is still my Shepherd, my Master, my teacher, my Savior, my King, and my LORD. No problem there and I know from where I come from and where I’m going when passing from this earthly life. My eternal security rests in Jesus.
And like my favorite old tractor, who has seen decades of weathered use and still purrs like a kitten, I too, have become weathered over the insults received from those who choose to castigate or make false accusations, whether blatantly or subtly concerning me as a born again believer and follower of Christ Jesus. The liberty and freedom found only in Him, has set this captive (individually of course) free long ago, to His credit (individually also), not mine.
And as far as the east is from the west, we still have the freedom to vote for rapists, murderers (many a pres. owned slaves; do the research there), fornicators, adulterers, liars, slanderers, lovers of self, lovers of money, or any other sinful candidate, regardless of political affiliation. 2 Timothy 3:1-7 applies to all of mankind, regardless of political affiliations and regardless of national boundaries, we must never forget that, and we must never forget that any national leader is not a god, although many worship politics in place of Christ. And not one national leader is God, our LORD, and Savior. Simply put, no national leader is the LORD, a lord type figure over people perhaps, but not THE LORD of hosts. Period.
Carmen and KAS, if you were my next door neighbor, I would invite you into my home, and perhaps spend a day picking rocks out in the fields with me (the individual), for we (sometimes we have groupies/extra help which is always welcome – and they are paid wages for their work 🙂 ) , have had many a healthy conversation while working, followed by a good home cooked meal and apple pie. Must feed the tired and aching bones while praising our LORD for His sustenance, individually and corporately.
And I will repeat, I still do not believe in cultural marxism, and stand not ashamed, regardless of the mockery/false accusations and assumptions of others. To this day, I still remember my neighbor spitting in my face at the state fair, “If jesus were alive today, he would be a democrat!” Wasn’t worth debating for his logic was skewed all the while his personal lifestyle didn’t match up with the fruits of a believer, although his church membership card was filled to the hilt. Prayed for his salvation.
It has been a pleasure visiting with you folks, logically in nature.
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The only reply I can think of to that is this: (as I shake my head)
God (if there is one) help you, Katy. Donald tRump sure as hell isn’t going to, nor the vast majority of Americans.
Unfortunately, however, I don’t think that fact has penetrated your delusion. 😦
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Carmen, you are still invited to my home, shaking your head of course. And yes, there is a God, and a Jesus Who serves as my Mediator. And yes, God does help us, not speaking in delusion, but in truth, regardless of the state of mankind. While my body is deteriorating, my hope is still in Christ, literally.
And you are right, Trump, Obama, Clinton, Bush, or any other political figure cannot truly help us, but at the same time, I’m not going to sit around and do nothing and live my life criticizing and condemning others who view life differently than myself…..have sat in both liberal and conservative churches, was a member of both political parties during my breathing tenure on earth so far (voted for Dems as well as Rep in presidential elections), and frankly, none of this has “saved” me or made me into a better human being. But I still believe in the goodness of some folks and the desire to do good to others, for there are still blessings out there as well as in my life.
Will still cling to the good and our Hope, regardless of politics, religion, and social spheres of this life.
I encourage you to put your Hope in Christ, not in the institutions of mankind, for they will fail you every single time.
Go ahead, shake your head, you have that freedom. But I will share this, as I handed my Bible (the one I had for years and years), to the drunkard begging for money and food outside of a busy gas station, sharing the Gospel and the love of Jesus Christ to him, he didn’t spit in my face, beat me up in anger and rage, throw my Bible (now his) back at me, swear/cuss/call me names verbally, or did he tell me what a selfish piece of degraded humanity was I………no…….Praise our LORD………..no……….he received the homemade sandwiches plus the fruit stashed in my traveling picnic bag and listened intently to what I had to say all the while folks were passing him by, shaking their heads and looking at him as if he were human trash………………yep, know that system well!
And yes, Carmen……not afraid of getting me hands dirty sharing me fruits and me Bible with those who are in need, for we all have those same needs to survive living on this earth for only a short time.
At the end of the day here, I still respect you Carmen, as a human being created by our LORD. Still.
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After a scare with cancer on two occasions, my body aching with arthritis, and my soul beaten up by the religious elite of our day because I choose to follow Christ instead of their extra-Biblical rantings……….and their inflated egos…….
I would still love to have you at my table and get to know you as a person because I “still” view you as valuable, Carmen. You are worthy of goodness, love, caring hands and a listening ear……and healing. Jesus still is His business in loving those of us who are deemed unworthy…..present company included.
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Katy,
I know I am valuable, worthy of goodness, love, caring hands and a listening ear. I have all that in my life, thanks. I am not in the least ‘unworthy’. I do not need an invisible friend for all those characteristics to be true. Human kindness is not restricted to people who are followers of a mythical character.
But look, thanks for the sermon – I’m sure you feel better.
Merry Christmas! 🙂
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I am not offended Carmen and rightfully know who my invisible enemy is and how he uses folks. In living under abusive in-laws having studied the topic of abuse for years and years now in trying to understand why people hate those who do good, I am familiar with personality types and their speech patterns and will continue to love my enemies in spite of the circumstances presented here.
Merry Christmas to you and may our LORD bless you as you bless others. There’s always a place for you at my table…..and it’s not lavish by any means; you are welcome here :-).
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