Wife Spanking, Christian Domestic Discipline, Domestic Violence
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You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Colossians 3:19
In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Ephesians 5:28
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My heart grieves when I think about how people arrive at my blog. I am able to see the search terms that people use. There are primarily two topics that continually bring people to the blog from search engines: posts related to wives of pedophiles and posts related to “Christian Domestic Discipline, also known as wife-spanking, but more appropriately identified as domestic violence.
Jennifer, a new reader, left a comment on an old article, Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this Abusive Practice. I decided to publish it here so that more people could see it and share their thoughts. I also do this with the hope in mind that others, too, may find this article and benefit from the community here.
Jennifer’s comment asks for our thoughts on her situation.
I grew up in a household with the paddle. At some point in our young marriage I told my husband. Maybe 6 months later, we had a bad few days and he arrived home announcing he had purchased a brand new paddle, and as the head of our home (never in question btw) he would issue discipline when needed. I thought OMG here I go again. Ten years later, not so bad. He has never been abusive and uses it sparingly.
Pros
I don’t often repeat behavioral mistakes.
It’s kept out of sight of guests, but in a place where I see it daily as a reminder “it’s there” (pantry).
It is used sparingly; if he mentions it during a tense time, I’m likely to calm down quicker to avoid its use.
Honestly, I’m scared by it and that fear fuels me to be kept in line.
Our marriage is stronger.Cons
It’s an unpleasant experience.
A few times I’ve been upset because I felt it was applied to me under unfair circumstances.
I’m 34 and I want to overcome those issues that result in a paddling, but struggle with it. I think this is the most difficult aspect because without my husband’s willingness to use it I question whether or not I could maintain myself and my role in our marriage properly.
Thoughts?
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Folks, how can we encourage and support Jennifer?
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hi Lydia, I work with women.
Yes husbands have told me they do not enjoy spanking their wives during personal communications, not during the course of my work. My choice of wording when I said ‘I have worked with many couples’ is a bit confusing, sorry. This has been within the DD community (more of a mentorship/friendship role) and not in the course of my actual work as a social worker.
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KAK, I did not know there was a Christian DD “community”. Where does one find such that is not online? Church groups? Is it preached? Discussed as normal in small groups? I am trying to wrap my head around such a thing.
The only place I have even heard of such a thing was in the online survivor Patriarchal communities associated with perverted charlatans like Doug Phillips or Gothard.. I must have been sheltered! Thank God!
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“Jennifer lists it as a ‘positive’ that she is scared of it, and that fear keeps her in line. A real DD marriage does not involve fear.”
KAK, you wrote the above earlier in the thread. Your comments have consistently tried to legitimize what you call ‘consensual DD”. Let’s face it…..How would we even know about this if people weren’t talking? That is a clue it is either being promoted or there are problems.
And since they are talking and we, in turn, are responding I can only say any adult couples who engage in “consensual” DD have serious problems. I refuse to go along with legitimizing “consensual DD”. What people do in the privacy of their homes that they never discuss outside is their business. But we both know kids catch on real quick, too.
You have talked out of both sides of your mouth. DD is not biblical. DD is ok if consensual. Bad, if not. And so on.
No self respecting adult engages in such activities. The key word is “self-respecting”. You do more harm than good by trying to legitimize it.
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There are all sorts of communities for BDSM. I was talking to a clinician who has a lady she checks with on BDSM stuff to see if they are ‘normal’ when talking to a patient about fantasies and actions.
I’m sorry, but I don’t actually believe them, if this is true. Or it’s like abusers who are sorry because they ‘didn’t want to have to hurt’ somebody. And yet.
IF they really didn’t like it, they would find an adult way to handle things.
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I googled Christian Domestic Discipline and came up with stuff that is just sick, some of it from a “Christian” perspective. There are web sites, forums, and chat rooms. I am appalled. I only had to glance to know it wasn’t worth my time, but it is to a lot of people, apparently. I think God weeps over this stuff that is touted as “spiritual.”
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Right? This topic came up on The Wartburg Watch 3 or 4 years ago. One commenter warned me (I can’t say that I wasn’t warned. lol) that I would need bleach for my brain. They weren’t kidding. Yesterday I found some “educational” books about CDD on Amazon. It is a big shock to learn about this when you didn’t know it existed. I felt yucky for a few days. However, I think it’s good to warn others that it’s out there. Some of us got into all sorts of garbage when all we really wanted to do was lead a more Christian life. Some of the “Christian” perspective of DD is being promoted by other women.
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Lydia – I’m not trying to legitimize DD – it’s already been legitimized by those who have practiced it for many years. It’s out there. It’s happening.
DD is not biblical in the sense that there is nothing in the Bible that advocates it. Those who use scripture twisted around to suit themselves to force their wives to submit to spankings they do not want (as is the case in a lot of Christian DD – especially that preached by the Patriarchy movement) is abuse, and not okay.
Why would ANY practice, whatever it is, not be okay, if it’s done between two sane, rational, consenting adults, in the privacy of their own homes and not affecting anybody else?
Where I live, there isn’t a Christian DD community, it’s just a DD community (I’m not in America) and it’s made up of all sorts of people – Christians and non-Christians. Some of it is online, (there is a worldwide community online, in different groups, different forums) and some of it isn’t. And unfortunately, there is also plenty of porn out there masquerading as DD – and that is something different again.
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Given that the presentations I’ve seen of DD indicate it’s generally presented as something of a fetish, what comes to mind is that something like 3/4 of serial killers listed on wikipedia seem to have associated violence with sex. Not that every DD devotee is going to be a serial killer, of course, but it does suggest that something is seriously wrong with it.
(I looked this up in the sad aftermath of the end of the Jacob Wetterling saga…it’s a big deal here in MN)
And really, the big thing here is that the Bible nowhere gives husbands the authority to discipline their wives, or vice versa. Even the most patriarchal view of Ephesians 5:22 doesn’t go there–it would impose a duty on the wife, but not bestow a privilege of discipline to the husband.
It’s like God doesn’t condone getting off on beating the **** out of your spouse. Who knew?
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“Why would ANY practice, whatever it is, not be okay, if it’s done between two sane, rational, consenting adults, in the privacy of their own homes and not affecting anybody else?”
How come people know about if only private? Can’t have it both ways. Again, as I said, it is out there and here being discussed so some of us are responding. My response is: no self respecting adult person would apply it or receive it.
And no, it will never be legitimate. It is sick. Adults act like adults.
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Sex is an interesting and complex topic. It’s very emotional. I have talked with friends who have “make up” sex which can be tender and beautiful. Others who are in the midst of conflict may have sexual desire and want hard sex, but there’s very little emotional connection. And then there’s the kind of sex where one can get swept away and end up sobbing because of the vulnerability, transparency, and release of emotions. It’s physical, emotional, spiritual.
While some people are repulsed at oral sex, others find great fulfillment giving/receiving. Not all couples have the same kinds of boundaries sexually.
As I researched DD a while back, I often wondered what is it that makes someone want to put themselves in a subservient position sexually, or a dominating position sexually. I wonder if couples who practice DD may have unresolved issues from their childhood, whether it be abuse or domineering parents, control issues, etc. When we look at the dynamics of DD, one has control, the other is submissive. KAK is saying that DD couples willingly put themselves in these power/subservient positions. Are they drawn to this because of an unmet need as a child? Or because control was taken from them as a child and now they are taking control sexually? I just have a hunch that there is something much deeper going on than just the consensual role playing of domination and submission.
(Part of me gets disturbed discussing this stuff especially when I think of the words that Doug Wilson used when he talks about marital sex. I’ve never been raped in my life, but the first time I read his words, I physically felt sick and like I had been violated.)
Anyway, there are my random thoughts on the topic.
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@KAK
Are they now? I really wish people would confine this to the privacy of their own bedrooms. Since they insist on posting about it on public forums for everyone to read, it isn’t really private, is it?
Here are some quotes from a forum I will not link to:
I think this person should listen to their therapist! Moving on:
This is not abuse? Sorry, but you won’t convince me of that.
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Julie Anne – you wonder what is going on that make people want to do DD – we wonder that too. All. The. Time. We have discussed any number of reasons. Many are simply born with this need and can see no reason at all for it. Others have some idea of why they are this way (things that have happened to them). Is it deep-DNA memory, “remembering” a past trauma? Who knows. All I know is that many, many people are wired this way, and the danger is when someone isn’t wired this way, and it is forced upon them.
BeenThereDoneThat – I’m not here to convince you it isn’t abuse. It’s clearly not something you understand, and that’s okay. I’m here to offer help and support to anyone who is in DD but confused, or being abused in DD. This is part of what I do for a living – help those who are wired in this way, (or married to someone who is) to be safe.
Lydia – People know about it perhaps because people who do it want to meet other like-minded people, so these avenues for finding like-minded people are publicly-searchable. Another reason people know about it is because of the fact that some churches preach it – which of course they should not be doing. Also, people know about it because of the abuse that sometimes occurs. Most people who participate in DD don’t tell people who don’t share their lifestyle, it is indeed something they keep private.
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Oh, I clearly understand that you believe “consent and abuse are very different.” Consent just gets you off the legal hook. “Torn up backsides from spankings” is still abuse. It’s just abuse that’s been consented to. So, I refute your contention that “consent and abuse are very different.”
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KAK:
“This is part of what I do for a living – help those who are wired in this way, (or married to someone who is) to be safe.”
If you are helping people to be safe, that screams there is a problem.
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Julie Anne – of course there is a problem. Abuse is everywhere! Not all DD is abuse, but there certainly is abuse within DD. And there seems to be more abuse within what’s known as CDD (Christian Domestic Discipline). Jennifer’s situation is certainly not unique.
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“Not all DD is abuse”.
Oh excellent to hear.
Please advise on how I can discipline my husband when he fails to take out the rubbish, burns the BBQ meat, doesn’t pray with me and do other external religious deeds o’zeal.
Oh!
You meant husband to wife ‘DD’?
We are living in different worlds KAK.
🙈
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Hi Salty – No I don’t necessarily mean “husband to wife DD” at all. There are also many couples who practice DD where the wife disciplines the husband. it’s a bit less common, but still happens. Why on earth would you think it is only one-sided? Is it because of the spin “Christians” put on it?
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I am in awe of the word “Christian” in the scenario being addressed here, which has gotten far away from Jennifer. Clearly Christ was gentle with women and children. Hitting one’s spouse or accepting the behavior is not loving.
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Brenda, you and I are in complete agreement. Jennifer and HER situation is supposed to be the focus of this thread. 😦
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Yes, it is rather telling that KAK choose this post to defend what s/he calls consensual DD. That is part of what bothered me the most.
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I think KAK just wanted us to know ‘Not All CDD”s are abusive. Because contracts? Because Christian??? (which is impossible – men are not supposed to be harsh with their wives. That excludes abuse. That excludes this). What a mess.
These people are deeply in need of therapy. What they are doing is not healthy.
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Ja said:
This is true from what I’ve read. It is a fetish. Those on the receiving end want to be spanked. Sometimes it’s not satisfying to them if it doesn’t leave bruises/welts/blisters/broken skin. (Which is why I’ll call it consensual abuse.) It’s a lot more challenging when the one who wants to administer spankings is in a relationship with a vanilla. How do they convince the other person to willingly accept a spanking?
This is where I have serious concerns with Jennifer’s situation. Her comment doesn’t indicate in any way that she has this fetish. It reads more like her husband instituted spankings against her will to keep her in her place. I don’t think what Jennifer is describing and what KAK is talking about are the same thing at all.
I’m not comfortable linking to a DD forum where people discuss this, but there is a New York Times article written by someone who enjoys this that I will link to. I think it might help others see the difference between the author’s strong desires to be spanked versus Jennifer having this forced on her.
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I totally agree it comes off as a fetish which carries its own serious problems….eventually.
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“Why would ANY practice, whatever it is, not be okay, if it’s done between two sane, rational, consenting adults, in the privacy of their own homes and not affecting anybody else?
Take a look at 1 Corinthians 7 and Ephesians 5 for your answer. I would argue that anything that renders one spouse unable or unwilling to “render due affection” would be out of line in the bedroom. And outside of the Scriptures, I would note that a tendency to self-harm, or to desire to be harmed, has been a symptom of a number of things in DSM for decades. So the very idea that the person who desires to be harmed is “sane” or “rational” would ipso facto be at least debateable.
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Had this thought: Haven’t read any of this or other articles on (but 3 Titles on this subject=WOW)! Is, if you tell husbands who do this, they are going to be spanked themselves on world-wide news or out in the public square would they do it? Remember meeting a guy who invited me to his house and heed show me a collection of paddles and I told him thought it wasn’t normal but a perverted, fettish, bondage, sado masochism type practice and he said there was this whole club/group out there; give it a whole new meaning (and now this)!
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First let me start by saying that by now, I sincerely hope that Jennifer has heeded the very sensible advice to get out of that situation! I read most of the comments and agreed wholeheartedly with them. Until I reached the part about the ‘consensual spankings’. There I found myself glassing over. You mean there are some women who dislike being spanked but consent to it because……… Well, I’m not quite sure why they would consent to it! But in any event, in Jennifer’s case, it is clearly NOT consensual. Her husband bought the paddle WITHOUT her consent. He paddled her with it WITHOUT her consent. And he hangs it perpetually over her head as a ‘reminder’ without her consent.
There is much I could say on this topic, but most of it has already been said, so I will leave it at that and tell my own story – which btw does not feature much in the way of spankings – and most definitely not by my husband or even my father. My mother dished out the occasional spanking until I was about 10 years old but my father never laid a finger on me.
But let me go back to the beginning. Some years ago I fell in love with a man who seemed to find the concept of spanking me (or any woman) VERY arousing. We began dating before I found out just how much into the whole spanking scene he was. He threatened to spank me several times, and thinking he was joking, I laughed. He wouldn’t dare! Would he?
Turns out he would! It was no longer a joke when he told me very seriously that the day was fast approaching when I would be put over his knee and thoroughly spanked. For what transgression, he didn’t specify.
I informed him that under NO circumstances was he going to spank, whip, paddle, slap or beat me. Ever!
He calmly informed me that my rebellion had earned myself an instant spanking and I would either submit, there and then or I could leave by the front door. I chose the door!
Some years later I met and married the man who is now my husband. He has never once mentioned or even tried to spank me. He would be dead meat if he did! That does not mean that we didn’t have our problems or that he always treated me fairly.
One example happened not so long ago. I was reversing my car out of the driveway when there was a sudden loud noise – almost as if I had reversed over something. I got out to inspect and could see nothing wrong. But on getting back into the car I could see that something was seriously wrong. I re-parked the car and asked him to take a look when he came home. He took the car for a drive, came back in a towering rage and burst into the house like a mini-tornado, berating me angrily for being such an idiot and did I not have eyes to see that something was wrong! I pointed out that I HAD seen that something was wrong which is why I had asked him to look at the car. He wasn’t having any of it and continued to yell at me until I lost my temper and yelled back! The next day when he took my car to a mechanic he was informed that the entire under-carriage of the car had snapped and ‘your wife is lucky to still be alive!’ If it had happened on an open road there would most likely have been a massive accident! My husband acknowledged that he had behaved like a jerk (his word) and apologized profusely, buying me chocolates and flowers and generally spoiling me to make up for his bad behavior. But imagine if he had been like Jennifer’s husband and spanked me! How angry, resentful and utterly violated I would have felt at the injustice of it!
The point I am trying to make, is that people can only abuse you for as long as you allow it. Not that I am blaming her. I am a Christian myself and know all too well the extent of ‘peer pressure’ within the christian community. Christians are experts when it comes to forcing their beliefs – rightly or wrongly – onto all who care to listen. And young Christians are often bulldozed into doing what ‘those in the club’ (i.e. church) think is right. The trouble is, Christians themselves do not always agree and one can be bombarded with conflicting ideals. I suspect this is what happened with Jennifer. She submitted to the spankings believing she was pleasing God. In fact, it is quite the opposite. God is most definitely NOT pleased that her husband is behaving like a narcissistic, bullying, controlling dictator!
Yes Jennifer! You are not/were not in a marriage. What you are/were in is a dictatorship!
So if you haven’t already left, I will join with all the other voices urging you to hit the ground running and GET OUT! Fast!
May God bless you and give you strength because whatever choice you make, it will not be easy. But then God never promised us that anything would be easy. What He did promise, is that He would be with us every step of the way!
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You are correct in everything you say. Domestic Discipline (especially when a Christian twist is put on it) is NOTHING to do with God or church. Outside of the very small DD community (which could be classed as part of BDSM to make it easier to understand, although it really isn’t, it’s quite different) spanking is abuse.
Yes, some women (and men) choose to consent to spankings. There are many reasons why they do this but perhaps this forum is not the best place to go into those reasons. But ultimately, their consent is a CHOICE – an informed choice, given in free will – something they want to do. It is not something they are coerced into doing, it is not something that is forced upon them, they are not manipulated into doing it, and they are certainly not told that it is God’s will that they submit to it.
Although my comments did upset a few people, I commented on this post specifically because someone who lives in a DD marriage asked me to – with my experience working within this community (I am a woman, by the way) and also with abused women through Women’s Refuge (a government-funded women’s welfare organisation, nothing whatsoever to do with DD) she thought perhaps I would be able to help those who were looking for answers about DD. I hoped that, because so much time had passed since the original post and my comment, that Jennifer has well and truly got herself to a safe place and is building up her self-esteem again and learning that no one has the right to mistreat her – not under the name of biblical submission, God, or anything else.
In my country, from what I understand, there is not a single church that teaches or advocates or even mentions, wife spanking. It just doesn’t happen. We do have a community here that I suspect practices this, but they are a closed community, where everyone lives in that particular community – it is completely separate from the outside world – people in this community live and work there, they are completely self-sufficient. If they choose to leave, they are cut off from the only life they have ever known and are never able to contact their family/friends inside again. But normal churches, mainstream ones where people live normal lives in normal communities/cities and attend church, wife spanking in any way, shape or form, is not taught. Why some churches in America teach this, is absolutely beyond me. There is nothing scriptural about it. One day, these men will have a lot to answer for.
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I agree with most of the comments. The scripture does not say dominate your wife. The wife is told to be subject to her husband. the husband is told to love the wife. I do not see the husband loving his wife here only fear and deception.
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Actually, Tony, the Bible is clear in Eph 5:21 that husbands and wives are to submit to each other.
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That is general in a fellowship Julie and not about marriage. If God is speaking through someone we submit to it. God uses us all. In marriage there are about two or three places about submitting to husbands as well as verses about the husband being the head of the wife. Again this does not mean domination it is just stating a fact.
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No, Tony, you are incorrect. That verse has been badly translated. Vs 21 and 22 belong together, not with the division header that we often see in English translations. There is no hierarchy in husband/wife relationship.
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Read verse 23 and 24 Julie.
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Obviously, Tony has the same mindset as the men who wrote the Bible. Also the same agenda.
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To each their own, only you know if its abuse, you may need a good paddling once in a while.
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Hammw, paddling is assault. Not sure which planet you live on.
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Getting back to Jennifer, the blast of sexual condemnation she received in return for her honest inquiry is worthy of the Taliban. Such arrogance! Such misplaced confidence in a bunch of limited perspectives! How sad that she has to read so many prior comments before arriving at this one.
I think these naive and self-righteous reactions, which condemn the very person they were supposed to guide and comfort, come from three fundamental errors.
First, there is a misplaced assumption that what should work for my relationship must be the one and only definition of what works for all relationships. How wrong.
Second, there is a failure to embrace the fact that each area of activity and concern has its own principles, and that most such areas are not egalitarian but are hierarchical and based on dominance and submission (or subordination–a justification for firing someone is “insubordination)”. There are relatively few areas in which all of those participating share the same rank in an egalitarian system, and most of those involve pretty casual relationships. When it comes to romantic and erotic relationships, often extended into the domestic sphere, egalitarianism is often more of a front than an actuality. How egalitarian is sex, when one partner is held down helpless on her back while the much stronger and more commanding partner enjoys her from above and in control? Though this is not universal, it is probably the situation in which most of us began our lives as our soon-to-be father thrust into our soon-to-be mother, filling her with the seed of new life.
Third, there is a cultural blindness that is relative to the time and place of one’s experience, yet that is made into absolute values. We’ve heard that in previous centuries only one sexual position was advised, and more recently oral sex was branded a “crime against nature” and other variations “sodomy”. Masturbation was until recently considered a serious threat to physical and mental well-being. How many of those who wrote to call Jennifer’s relationship criminal and crazy enjoy oral sex and consider it well within the normal range? That change has happened just in the past two generations, beginning with “Deep Throat”. Then is it possible that the moral cage you impose on Jennifer and her husband might be obsolete already, or soon to be so?
The fact is that there are two opposite but complementary value systems: the masculine and the feminine. Because masculinity is dominant in many cultures, we unknowingly regard it as “the” normative value system, while paying little attention to the feminine system. Masculine values (whether by males or females) emphasize conquest, competition, and power, while feminine values see good in yielding, submission, and compliance. When this is applied in the bedroom, the masculine partner dominates, rules, and has his way, while the feminine partner, submits, yields, and is often “swept away” by his strength and power. The feminine partner often prefers a masculine partner who is taller, stronger, older, and more savvy in the ways of the world than she; while the masculine partner often seeks out a smaller, softer, more ingenuous (even girlish) partner. He leads, she follows; he holds her, she clings to him; he drives, she is his grateful passenger.
These are generalities, which means they aren’t universally true, but are true enough to form a pattern that underlies the ways the genders come together to perpetuate our species.
A masculine person enjoys making love to a feminine person, who enjoys being made love to. He loves to “give it to her”; she loves to “take it”. This simple observation implies a dominant-submissive basis for the erotic relationship. What makes something erotic is what increases and celebrates that difference. The more power the masculine partner is given, the more sweetly the feminine partner can surrender in perfect sublime humility. A couple may decide to institutionalize this amplified gender difference by establishing a framework of rules and erotic enforcement measures. And even if she ever wants to season the dish with a little fear (Oh, my! I’m in for it now!–or as Joni Mitchell sings, “Oh, you’re a mean ol’ Daddy, but I love you!”), then that is still well within the parameters of normal sex, and far, far from the criminal crazy threat to Western civilization pictured by some who have eagerly condemned poor Jennifer and her mate–he who may be paying much more attention to her, and enjoying a much greater sense of possessing and belonging with her, than many others. A wife who finds intimate ways to belong to her husband, and who finds efficient ways to resolve conflicts and disappointments with him by leaning over and taking what he thinks he needs to give her, could be much closer to the secret romatnic feminine fantasy that inspires a billion female orgasms every night than those of you apparently stuck in a “vanilla” relationship with the sexual bandwidth of an 18th-century missionary couple.
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Theophilus: “This simple observation implies a dominant-submissive basis for the erotic relationship. What makes something erotic is what increases and celebrates that difference.”
I was mostly with you to this point (ignoring the Doug Wilson-esqe conquer/submit analogy), but then you’re jumping to a conclusion that does not follow.
First of all, the fact of nature that males dominate females in most relationships does not imply a moral judgment. We don’t say that it’s good for males to force themselves on females just because the cats and the dogs do it that way, or just because men throughout history do that. Just as we don’t say it’s morally good that coyotes attack sheep. Not even Dawkins dares go there to any real extent.
Second of all, what makes something erotic is what the two people perceive to be erotic. If a wife is turned on by being spanked and proper safety measures are in place and respected, that’s one thing. For a husband to decide on his own that his wife is going to be turned on by being domineered, and then put it into action is abusive. Yes, couples can experiment with what they find erotic and each couple is going to have different ideas about what is okay and what is not.
Third, a husband who is deluded (by porn and BDSM literature or whatever) into thinking that all women have some secret erotic vault that can only be unleashed by being physically, emotionally or financially forced to into what she considers to be degrading sex, is most likely going to resort to abusive means to get what he wants, without regard to what is best for her. That is to say that he is SO DECEIVED that he thinks that what is best for his wife is what he desires. In other words, his wife should be most pleased when she is nothing more than his sex toy.
Which brings us to the original question. If the wife thinks it’s NOT OKAY to be spanked, then it’s ABUSIVE. End of story.
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I think the just-previous comment responding to mine is is known as the Straw Man attack, where you defend against points not raised previously, such as the comparison of humans to other animals, or the idea that anyone is endorsing ” being physically, emotionally or financially forced to into what she considers to be degrading sex.” From what Jennifer wrote, it seems clear that she sees benefits in the initiative her husband bravely took as a way to improve their relationship, and is in compliance with him. She does not question the explicitly D/s basis of their household and hopes to derive improvements from it (once she recovers from all of the personal attacks in this series of messages). If we all step back and take a breath, we may see their arrangement as a kind of erotic game that intimately binds them together in the interest of a happier marriage.
I think the truth that erotic relations usually involve the heightening of gender differences, including power differentials, is so obvious that it needs little shoring up.
One important correction: Joni says “like” rather than “love” to her Dom Carey as he goes for his cane and she puts on her silver.
I don’t think anyone has yet suggested (so I will right now) that Jennifer and her Mister cuddle up by the fireplace before any more correction and have a nice, long discussion about their uniquely effective marriage improvement program over a glass of wine and then maybe over his lap and then on her back,
Jennifer and wonderful H-o-H, you go, guys, When to get concerned is when the spanking stops. That could constitute the greater abuse,
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Theopohilus,
Since this is obviously a titillating subject for you, I’ll suggest what I pointed out to KAK – if Christian porn is your ‘thing’ you really belong over at Biblical Gender Roles. He’d welcome another asshat to endorse his toxic views, which you obviously share.
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I want to offer a Biblical reference, since many people seem to tangle up their opinions about gender in Paul’s first-century perspectives, often contrasted with present-day feminist struggles.
Strangely, the most relevant Biblical reference (certainly the earliest) could be Genesis 3:16: (speaking of womankind) “Your desire shall be for him, and he shall be your Master” (is one traditional translation). This is set off against the masculine equivalent that the men must work outside the home and often find that work frustrating, pointless, and unproductive.
These are not punishments, but prophecy, They are not God’s curse inflicted from divine anger but rather gendered prophecies of the consequences of the obsession with the desire “to be as gods”. Womankind will desire men, and from that desire will come a relationship of dominance and submission, which will be woven deeply into human sexuality, Like the masculine prophecy about work, this is not a weakness to be overcome but a feature of life after Eden that we can war against as a curse or embrace as a “given” with marvelous possibilities. Or perhaps we are fated to do both, and hence Jennifer’s “pro’s and cons”.
I think it is VERY important to end by saying that the freedoms women now enjoy in their relationship opportunities are partly thanks to the feminist movement, which has contributed hugely and positively to our ideas and practices about everything having to do with gender. Even the desire to follow Paul’s instructions in one’s marriage (however one interprets them) is a dead end unless a woman truly has a choice — it is feminism that has contributed to making space for that choice. WE MUST DEFEND FEMINISM for that reason alone.
How ironic then that the pseudo-feminists condemn women who desire their husband to be the head of their household in the same way that some of those same women condemn wives and girlfriends who also want their men to be their loving disciplinarian, or even their master, as in Gen. 3:16. In each case the embracing of a little patriarchy in the midst of egalitarian society is branded abusive, criminal, sick, and unnatural, Yet as always, freedom lies in that direction.
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This from the same guy who basically says the missionary positions proves a bunch of his nonsense thoughts about ‘dominance’??? LOL. Maybe you need to get out more.
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Theophilus, you said, “From what Jennifer wrote, it seems clear that she sees benefits in the initiative her husband bravely took as a way to improve their relationship, and is in compliance with him.”
Jennifer said: “Honestly, I’m scared by it and that fear fuels me to be kept in line.”
The Bible says: “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.”
So, the “benefit” Jennifer receives is contrary to what the Bible defines as a healthy relationship. Her husband uses “fear” and punishment, which is the antithesis of a healthy, loving relationship, where “perfect love casts out fear”
You said, “I think the just-previous comment responding to mine is is known as the Straw Man attack, where you defend against points not raised previously, such as the comparison of humans to other animals”
But, you said,
So, you aren’t specifically comparing humans and animals, but you are talking about the perpetuation of species, and you are using the same sort of “survival of the fittest” language where the male of the species physically dominates the female as the basis for your claims that hierarchical sex is somehow the norm. I fail to see why I am making a straw man argument.
To quoque?
This is so diametrically opposed to the teaching scripture that I’m surprised you even dared to bring it up. Consider these verses:
So, the gospel, the arc of creation, the big story is about how, through the Fall, we are in bondage and slavery. How Jesus came to redeem us and make us co-heirs with him, and children no longer under bondage. We see that marriage is a picture of Jesus and his church. Yet, you are claiming that bondage and slavery are somehow a desired goal in marriage? How utterly backwards!
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Dear abused wife,
I’m naive when it comes to wife spanking when it comes to keeping a wife “in-line”. It doesn’t make sense to me. Does that mean the wife beats the husband’s behind, if he is out of line?
It has to be some crazy abusive disguised sexual fetish the husband has with his wife?
My advice to him (and you) is learn how to learn to be civilized when pursuing or discovering compromises without getting angry when a mistake is made or when disagreements are occurring, is what mutually stimulates the mind. You two need to agree from here on out when voices are beginning to rise, to say “oops, we can get through this” or “baby, lets stay calm”. Some would consider this the first step of achieving “emotional connection”, because spouses and lovers are choosing to not be mentally or physically hurtful to the other.
People who love each other aren’t flipping out and losing control on the other when there is a disagreement or when mistakes are being made.
I did take the liberty to looking up “wife-spanking” on-line and the only thing that popped up was for erotic reasons, where the spanking is consensual and actually desired by both the wife and husband. Even so, if those boundaries aren’t respected and in fact are exceeded then the wife (or husband) can be seriously injured, even death.
I actually read where a man and woman were into choking during intimacy and she died and now he is in prison for life.
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What’s most ironic, Theophilus, is that pseudo-intellectuals promote patriarchy under the guise of embracing feminist theories. Fortunately, most of Julie Anne’s readers are very discerning.
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I’m beyond reading a defence of punishment of one’s spouse. It doesn’t work for me. I still think it is wrong. I am not against spanking as part of sex actually but this punishment thing is so wrong.
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I think there is a hierarchy in the bible. If it says the head of the woman is the husband and the head of the husband is Christ. How can that be ignored especially when it is re-iterated in other places. What about Sarah calling him lord in Peter’s epistles. Are we ignoring what the bible says because of our culture? Not backing up punishment or anything. The husband must love the wife but sweeping those scriptures under the carpet cannot be the answer.
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Thanks to Tony for his response to marital punishment and hierarchy in the Bible.
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When you reason away the words of the bible Theophilus you have lost me so I am not going to argue with you. Submission to the husband is addressed to the wives not the husbands so it is for the wives to work it out how they cope with those verses. Nobody is going to force it on them.
What I am against is real punishment in a marriage. I know some like to be spanked for sexual reason, wives and husbands, but real punishment goes into another bizarre realm to my mind and I always suspect personally that there is some problem there maybe self hatred or something. I know that there are some who like pretend punishment as they need a reason for doing it but I would advise to keep away from even that. We are not called to dominate our wives in scripture as far as I can see.
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Submission is addressed to ALL. I wonder why so many men skip Ephesians 5:21?
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Gee…I wonder why… 😉
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Lol Carmen 😂
We know why!
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There is a submission to one another but the submission spoken in the following verses 22 to 24 is the submission of a wife to a husband in marriage. We have had this conversation before. In the church we will submit to the one God is using at the time. Even the least can prophesy or bring a word. The submission in marriage is of a different order and is mentioned a number ot times in the NT.
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You don’t know why actually. It’s simply scripture. Once one starts changing scripture to fit in with our world view we are moving away from truth.
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Tony,
Remember the first commandment:
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.”
Mutual submission is the only way that we can avoid setting man on Gods throne. Remember what got someone kicked out of Heaven?
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Julie Anne,
You asked: “I wonder why so many men skip Ephesians 5:21?”
The one’s ignoring that verse are rebelling against God.
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Tony, “It’s simply scripture.”
There is both a clarity and a difficulty in understanding scripture. I find that those who say “I’m just following the Bible” seem to be really saying that they get to be judgmental, mean and controlling because somehow they found that in scripture. I think there are monumental areas of blindness that can creep in. For example, the Pharisees felt they were the height of righteousness and they were respected in their culture as such, but Jesus considered them precisely the opposite. It was because they looked to their genetics and their works.
Interesting how that parallels today. We have racists and misogynists (genetics) and Bible thumpers (works) that have turned the Bible right back on its head like the Pharisees. They say Clinton’s affairs were reason he should not be elected, but we don’t get to judge Trump’s affairs because we shouldn’t be busybodies and what happens between consenting adults is their business. Yet in both cases, Evangelicals still claim that they’re simply following Scripture.
I think “scripture” is just a red flag that says, “I’m going to be nasty, judgmental and manipulative and when someone calls me out on it, I’ll say, just following the rules.”
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Mark,
I also think Presidential Affairs are politicalized depending who is President.
When Clinton was President the liberals were less concerned about bringing Clinton down, than the conservatives were. Now that Trump is President, the liberals on the other hand are way more concerned about bringing Trump being down, than the conservatives are right now.
Double standard for both sides and lets not pretend it isn’t happening, even among some of us who contribute to this site.
Kind of put’s Hillary in a sweet spot, as she was eligibly chastising her husband’s non-consensual victims, maybe to keep her own political asperations alive as I don’t see a lot of evidence of love in that relationship either.
Though some of the liberals in the media in my view are ready to pounce on Clinton, in order to get to Trump. As I’m sure if a Dem was currently in Trump’s shoes, the conservatives would dump on a republican in order to derail a Liberal.
To those of us who embrace fiscal ideologies, social politics is pretty exhausting as all we want is a healthy “balanced” economy.
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I know that many misinterpret scripture. We can all be guilty of that but there are some passages as plain as plain can be and still some wriggle out of it.
In the end I can only say let God be judge. We are all accountable to Him in the end.
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Tony,
All those verses on men submitting are “as plain as plain” too…. Why are you “wriggling” out of obeying God’s command to submit too?
Here’s another “plain” passage:
Matt 23:9: Jesus warned women not to allow anyone to parent them. Comp theology disobeys that by turning marriage into a parent/child relationship.
Matt 5:37: Jesus warned women not to allow anyone to take away their ability to say “yes” and “no” in their own lives. Comp theology runs roughshod over that, because it refuses to allow women to obey this command of Christ.
What about these two passages is so difficult to understand?
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You are accusing me of things I’m not even into Avid Reader. One cannot fail to notice how many times the scripture says wives submit to your husbands. This is given to wives not husbands so it is up to them to work it out. Have you never read the husband is head of the wife and christ is head of the husband? or “For in this manner in former times the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror” 1 Pet 3:5/6. Methinks you are the ones wriggling out of scripture.
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I’ll assume that Tony has given all his material possessions away to help the poor, that he follows the rules for keeping slaves, and that he doesn’t wear tweeds. You know, since he adheres to the admonishments set forth in the Bible.
Something tells me that he’s a raging hypocrite in that regard, though.
Here’s what many people realize, though, Tony. That most of the Bible is neither horrible nor inspiring, it is simply dull and irrelevant: long genealogies written by men obsessed with racial purity; archaic stories about ancient squabbles over real estate and women; arcane rituals aimed at pleasing a volatile deity; folk medicine practices involving mandrakes and dove’s blood; superstition that equates cleanliness with spiritual purity and misfortune with divine disfavour and outdated insider politics.
Irrelevant, Tony. Completely irrelevant to modern-day man but especially to women.
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The bible is a wonderful book Carmen. It has to start with Jesus. He is the door and the Way the Truth and the Life. The new is in the old contained the old is by the new explained. The geneologies show me personally how interested God is in mankind.
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I’ll take that as an endorsement of my assumptions — you haven’t given your possessions away, you follow the rules for keeping slaves and you don’t wear tweed. The other two sentences of yours are completely subjective. (one doesn’t make a lick of sense, btw)
Oh, and I agree with the mother in “The Glass Castle” It should be the Ten Suggestions . 🙂
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Tony,
Go back to the words of Christ. Did Jesus say any of that? Nope. Now what about Matt 5:37 and Matt 23:9 that you just tossed out the window?
Are you asking women to disobey the words of Christ? There’s a reason that Jesus warned women not to allow anyone to turn their “yes” into “no” and “no” into “yes.”
That’s exactly what Comp theology does.
Now the Bibles tells us to test everything. Take some time to put Comp theology to the test and it totally falls apart.
For example, Paul writes in 1Cor 11:10 that women should have authority over their own heads. Where does that verse fit into your theology?
If you really want answers to the other questions, then you’ll have to do some research.
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And how does this help Jennifer, whose situation is described in the blog post above? In her own words, being paddled is unpleasant, and there have been times when she has found her husband’s use of it unreasonable. If she’s supposed to be submissive to him, how can she even voice her objections without being punished all over again for “unsubmissiveness”, or whatever her husband makes up?
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Hi Everybody,
If we are going to isolate scriptures in describing marriage vows, here are verses that make it absolutely clear about mutual submission. I’d like to emphasize that “they are no longer two, but one flesh”
Also in Ephesians 5, a husband is suppose to love his wife as much as his body, so when a man is abusive or forcing his will on his wife (and her with him) or mutually bickering instead of discovering compromises, I suspect he may have a problem loving himself.
Matthew 19:4-6
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
1 Corinthians 7:3-6:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command.
Ephesians 5:28-29
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
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I don’t know what you are talking about and this is getting nowhere. This is an unprofitable discussion.
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“This is an unprofitable discussion.” Perhaps because no one is agreeing with you?
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One should not be submissive to wrong SKJ. If he asked her to rob a bank of course she shouldn’t do it. I don’t think she has to submit to that as a man should not dominate his wife. That is not what it is about. I agreed with you all on that point if you look back. We have a lady in our housegroup who takes it as meaning adapting to your husband. I don’t argue with her as it is for the wives to work out.
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Tony,
I’m not sure what you mean. But what is your definition of submission and is it exclusively one-sided or is it mutual?
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I agree with your scripture D. Nobody is arguing about that. I know that the wife has power over the husband’s body and vice versa. No problem. We are told not to defraud each other by witholding sex.
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In response to the first of those, it seems to me that punishment or “correction” must overlap significantly into the erotic since it involves such strong erotic elements, even when the DD couple denies it (as CDD couples sometimes do. Exposure, D/s power differential, physical intimacy, and heightened gender differences between two sexual partners… The objective may be (for him) to change her behavior and (for her) to concentrate his focus on her as his major “project”, but the erotic character of the disciplining ritual seems unmistakable. Those who practice it often say it is a more effective way to resolve conflict than the extended periods of cold, stony silence or the bouts of bellowing and screaming that are often the alternative. There is also quite a bit of frustration expressed by wives who don’t know how to get their husbands to throw themselves into playing the spanking game some women are somehow programmed to desire. (The other alternative is two reasonable people talking things through, which may even precede a consensual disciplining arrangement, but somehow that solution is often out of reach when two people trying to share one life are hurt and angry at one another.)
It does seem that there is a shift happening (shift happens), in which sexual variation that was once regarded as deviance is becoming more generally acceptable, including more frank and open D/s practices. My main point is that the tolerance of diversity is tested when the majority greatly outnumbers those whose appearances, behaviors, and desires are regarded as deviations from the norm. Here I especially have in mind Jennifer and her husband.
(Please note: I stumbled onto Jennifer’s testimony and the responses she inspired without knowing much about this forum. I imagined I could share some thoughts that might be helpful to that conversation. If the Spiritual Soundingboard is intended as a forum for women to counsel each other and is not enhanced by such “mansplaining” from males, somebody please say so, to help me stop being a burr under the saddle. Or sand in the swimsuit.)
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Tony, “We are told not to defraud each other by witholding sex.”
That sounds a lot like Bill Gothard. Gothard LOVES the word “defraud”, and if you’re a Gothard follower, you’re not going to find a lot of support here, especially for his authoritarian and hierarchical views.
Theophilus, I think KAK’s comments are pretty clear and good. If DD is “consensual” meaning that both parties are turned on by it and want it to be a part of their sex life, then I think it can be okay, but if you read Jennifer’s account, she told her husband that she was paddled by her father, and all the sudden, WITHOUT HER CONSENT, her husband buys a paddle and starts hitting her with it. She doesn’t fight it because she considers her husband to be her authority, but she says that it brings her fear. The fear is my primary issue. If there is fear in her relationship then it’s abusive.
That’s why I’m concerned about what you write because you seem to be justifying physical abuse by claiming that somehow women are wired to find that sort of physical abuse erotic whether they consent to the abuse or not. I think that is a very destructive approach to the issue.
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Carmen I haven’t given all my possessions away and don’t wear tweed and have no slaves. What you are saying is I don’t keep the OT law. I do give but not everything as I need a certain amount. With regard to tweed you are referring to a mixture of linen and wool which the Jews not us were not allowed to wear. This is prophetic (the Jews are a prophetic people). I believe it shows that God doesn’t like a mixture of our own works (wool producing sweat). Nothing we can do will save us only faith in Jesus and His atoning blood. We will have works coming out of the faith we have but we are not justified by works before God.
With regard to slaves if you kidnapped anybody to make them a slave you were subject to the death penalty in the bible. Some sold themselves because of debt but even so you were only allowed to treat them as a servant not a slave and they had to be fully released in the year of jubilee with the wherewhithal to support themselves. If you bought a Hebrew servant he was only allowed to serve you six years but on the 7th year he shall go free.
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This is just not an answer to that. This is substituting physical violence for silence and screaming on the part of the husband, if he is the one who is angry. And it’s simply removing the wife’s voice entirely. This doesn’t fix anything interpersonal, it just ensures that the wife has no control or input and the husband has all. Adding physical violence on top of it is disgusting to me.
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“Adding physical violence on top of it is disgusting to me.”
What’s disgusting to me is the men who have commented on this blog who seem to be legitimizing physical violence; indeed advocating for it as far as women are concerned. I asked, further up the thread, if whacks upside the head, pinches to the fleshy bits of the arm, or kicks in the shins would get the same reaction. It sailed over the patriarch’s heads.
Absolutely disgusting comments from those asshats. You bastards should be ashamed of yourselves. Lest you think my comment is in any way unacceptable, I suggest you re-read your own comments. You might not use profanity, but your suggestions are every bit as profane – and completely unacceptable on a forum where women come to seek compassionate advice. Get ye gone.
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Indeed. ‘How will we solve disputes between two people if one cannot beat the other? It’s a mystery’
To call it biblical on top of that is blasphemous.
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Theophilus, this forum is for sufferers and survivors of all kinds of abuse, especially spiritual abuse. It exists primarily so that they may tell their stories, and find compassion and advice.
And mansplaining is never acceptable. It’s condescending and arrogant. I say this a a man, myself.
Also, I agree with Carmen: Your posts (and Tony’s) don’t contain any profanity, but your approval of the physical “discipline” of wives by husbands is simply obscene. Such is my opinion.
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Sidenote on this Carmen: There are parts of the bible that I find absolutely beautiful poetry, life lessons ala poor Richards almanac, and fascinating, rich stories. I used to sit and read Samuel and Kings for fun. Some of it is not fun to read, lists of laws and genealogies, although they are sort of interesting in context, but much of it stands up on its own to me. Regardless of religion, the stories are certainly not all dull. JMHO.
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It’s all about perspective, eh Lea? 😉
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My background is similar to yours only I went from living at home and being paddled regularly to getting married and he started paddling me immediately and you’re so right that it does make us think about our actions and I truly believe I should submit myself to my husband and occasionally that means I get a sound bare bottom paddling from him.
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How often do you “paddle” your husband Laura?
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Thank you Zoe.
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Laura – Submission does not mean that your husband has authority over you. Your husband does not have the right to physically harm you.
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I used to be a head strong teen, married at 19. I came from a Christian house, my Father had always disciplined me and my two year younger Sister. My Father found my husband through our Church. He is 8 years older and has followed my Father in being a Christian house. I do my best to dress modest, act modest but fully accept his guidance when I stay. He keeps a leather strap and wooden paddle, but only uses for when I am very bad, not often.
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Define “very bad” Jo Sook.
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I made a comment on this thread about how domestic discipline deals with a couples personal preference, I’m not sure why it did not get posted??? I hope different opinions are allowed here.
But anyways I’ll give it another go. It should not be called Christian Domestic Discipline because it’s not really Biblical. But it does not mean that the Bible prohibits it as long as it’s truly consensual. It’s simply a lifestyle choice that someone chooses. Just because you don’t want to participate in this type of relationship, does not mean that no one else should. DD can also be done in reverse too where the wife disciplines the husband. Each DD relationship is different.
My husband and I mutually agreed to this lifestyle not because it was our only choice, but because it was an option. If either of us decided we no longer wanted to participate in this lifestyle we could easily stop. I could very well function just fine without the need of my husband disciplining me. But we continue to do so because we like it. Plain and simple. There is nothing more to it. People like different things and as long as it’s not causing harm to anyone else, then there should not be anything wrong with that.
Also, there does not need to be any past abuse or trauma for someone to choose this lifestyle. No one considers punishments abuse when we get a speeding ticket for breaking a rule. Couples that participate in domestic discipline ALLOW their husband to discipline them when they break a rule that could potentially have negative effects on them. We don’t consider it abuse. We just consider it a punishment for breaking the rules. Just like the police officer would punish/ penalize us by giving us a speeding ticket. I know these two situations are not exactly the same thing, but I just wanted to put it in perspective for people that don’t understand and consider DD as harmful/ abusive. And I’m obviously not saying that DD is a standard for all relationships. It’s only an option for those that prefer it over a standard relationship. Like I said all DD is is a preference and based on what works for each individual couple. There is nothing more to it.
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Also I wanted to be clear that domestic discipline should only be between couples who consent to it. If one person is being forced or pressured to participate in DD in any way, it IS abuse. So in Jennifers case, if she did not consent to be disciplined, then it is absolutely abusive. Sorry for the long posts.
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Where do these men who are so incredibly insecure or so off the chart controlling come from? And which Bible verses are you interpreting to mean that God’s desire is for a husband to act so belittling towards his wife and to view her as being equal in his mind to one of their children?? My definition of love as pertaining to my wife (and wholly based on scripture, doesn’t matter which version) in no way, shape or form could ever include spanking her.
As far as I’m concerned, if your level of intelligence prevents you from being able to think of a method or strategy that’s equally as effective in helping your wife avoid repeating certain mistakes, but even more so, that gives her the respect she more than deserves, then you you’re not qualified to call yourself the head of the broom closet let alone the head of household so stop calling yourself that.
Any adult who regularly displays such petty minded, immature behavior needs counseling. You also need a different Bible teacher.
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