John Piper – Troubling Tweets
John Piper is known for troubling tweets. Here’s a new one.
Below is the live link tweet. You can click on the timestamp to read the many responses:
Here are the Bible verses mentioned in the tweet:
Deuteronomy 5:9: Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Ezekiel 18:20: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
A couple of tweets expressing their thoughts about the tweet:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
This is troubling for its likely consequences, to be sure — but entirely consistent with the doctrine of Original Sin, which holds that we are all born corrupt, foul, radically depraved, et cetera, et cetera. I am not a Christian and reject Original Sin without qualification; I think it’s insane on its face.
But why should any believer be disturbed? Doesn’t this go to the need for ‘salvation?’
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No innocent children!!! Wow.
Maybe we should go to Jesus for a response?
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Bob, I’m amazed that Piper even thinks he’s saved. According to him, we are constantly sinners and are never good enough for God. My response then is, why even bother? I wish he would keep his ideas in his head instead of trying to influence everyone else.
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Good point, Kathi. I guess that’s why they say they need to continually preach the gospel to themselves. To me, that makes Christ’s death on the cross a farce.
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^^Exactly!
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There are 2 different issues; 1) Accepted by believers through-out the centuries, all mankind including children, are born under the weight of sin. That is not original with John Piper. 2} The more difficult question has always been, does God hold children guilty before the age of accountability.
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Sick
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As to what Buzz English observes, it just isn’t true that all believers through-out the centuries have accepted the notion that all mankind including children, are born under the weight of sin. Take Jesus, for example, who said “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:3 ESV). Jesus also said “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:14 ESV).
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Not all Christians believe the doctrine of Original Sin. Based on this article, it sounds as if Orthodox Christians believe that mankind has inherited the penalty of sin, i.e. death, from Adam, but not his sin and the accompanying judgement/guilt. Each person is responsible only for their own sin – this seems consistent with Ezekiel 18:20 quoted above:
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness
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I am sure I lack some moral concept or the love of God or maybe Im not even saved but this entire concept that children are born in vile sin, hating God even before they leave the womb always bothered me. For example a two year old sinning against the second commandment because the cry and by doing this they are not loving their neighbor because they might keep them up. That children at six months of age are culpable of manipulative willful conscious sin and rebellion against a Holy God. That children outside of the grace of God make Hitler look like a quire boy. Basically we are all Jeffery Dahmer wannabes just itching to take out an entire family or school or worse. This sermon snippet would be considered a bit tame compared to some I have heard about children and just how utterly hopelessly evil and vile and God hating we all are.
Of course I no longer believe such utter trash but it does stick with one.
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John Piper’s god is a monster.
This is nothing new for him. He said equally atrocious things following a bridge collapse in MN
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Yes, he did, Loren. 🙁
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OMGosh, Paul Washer is psycho. I’ve never listened to him but this clip is so disturbing. He must have real problems personally.
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We are not born under the weight of sin! What is that even supposed to mean? Jesus Christ removed the sin of the first Adam.
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18
We are born with a nature that is predisposed to sin and at some point will choose to do so. This is spoken of as the age of accountability.
Yes, children are innocent! They are innocent, helpless, vulnerable, and utterly dependent. They deserve better than this BS. I’m just stunned and sickened by this kind of reasoning. What is the matter with someone who plays games with words on a page and fails to see the humanity in front of his eyes? What recklessness to put out such a statement and not even to think or care that innocents might suffer as a result. SMH.
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Brian-
I am sure I lack some moral concept or the love of God or maybe Im not even saved
No, Brian, more likely you are feeling this:
“the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” John 10:4-6
Our hearts flee from this because they recognize it as evil.
This is not love, it is hate. God is love. These are doctrines of demons, doctrines of hate and cruelty. And what wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
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Paul Washer is even worse than John Piper. It is sad that people like him are allowed behind the pulpit. Electrical tape across his mouth, perhaps. I do not believe for one minute that my 2 grandsons that died before 9 months old are not with Jesus right now. Truth is that Jesus would not turn away a child. He needs to read the words that Jesus spoke. Babies are born into a sin filled world. They do not have a clue what sin is!!!!
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It is the notion that children are not innocent that fuels the parenting techniques of Michael and Debi Pearl. It’s all about breaking the will and spirit of the disobedient child.
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The doctrine of Original Sin is well established in orthodox Christianity – G. K. Chesterton in his book ‘Orthodoxy’ quipped it was the one doctrine that could really be proved – but what Piper does with it in this tweet is weird. He seems to be saying that because children are not free of original sin, they will be held guilty for the sins of their fathers, which would contradict the whole message of Ezekiel 18, which was that every person will be held accountable for their own sins, not the sins of their parents/ancestors:
“What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:1-4)
Also, I think Piper is confusing the doctrine of Original Sin with the legal term of innocence. All people have a sin nature, but there is a concept that not everyone is accountable. For example, Noah and Lot are not held accountable for what they do when they are drunk. That is why most churches that do not believe in infant baptismal regeneration (that children are saved by being baptized into the church as infants) speak of the age of accountability. Children are born with a sin nature; but they are not yet capable of being accountable for their actions. Those who are not accountable for their actions are acquitted, declared innocent, in a court of law.
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Does being born with a ‘sin nature’ mean that you have actually sinned?
Does being a sinner mean that you are not innocent?
I think that is where many people part ways with Piper on this. I cannot call a small child anything but innocent. Period.
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I’m not sure what message Piper is trying to communicate, but it seems to insinuate that God punishes children because they’re not innocent? Why all the focus on OT scripture? Where does Jesus fit in?
I believe we’re to filter everything now through Jesus who revealed the true character of God on the cross, and we should be reading scripture as well through Him. Jesus’s revelation of the character of God takes precedence over the OT depictions. (Hebrews 1:1-3, Colossians 1:19; 2:9).
How many of these twisted tweets would just go away if Piper held to this view instead of the deterministic view of God who looks more like a pagan god?
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Meant to add that I don’t think the focus should be on deserved punishment. It should be balanced with the Good News that Jesus brought and that when we listen and see Jesus we see God.
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Lea, Jesus put it this way, in his conversation with Nicodemus:
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Mr. Piper makes the mistake once again of addressing a complex doctrine by way of a 140 character medium. I don’t think he gets doctrine correctly no matter how much space he has to write in, but this type of stand alone tweet is reckless and dangerous.
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Exactly, because the first kind of innocence everyone thinks of is sexual innocence. Piper and his fellow conservative complementarians talk all the time about preserving the innocence of children in the context of limiting sex education, the current debate over bathrooms/changerooms, etc. And then he goes and tweets a puzzling tweet which seems to shoot all those efforts in the foot.
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roscuro, I was thinking more:
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
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So what else is new?
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Remember who we’re talking about — “Flutterhands” Piper. Heir presumptive to Pat Robertson in the “shooting your mouth off” department.
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@Shy1:
Simple, Shy. The words on the page (“See How Clever I Am?”) are Real and the humanity in front of his eyes are NOT.
I’ve seen this phenomenon with Intellectual Snobs, “Men of the Mind”, and “Wile E Coyote Super Genius” types. The Intellectual Abstractions become the only Reality and Meatspace must conform to them.
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A possible explanation for Mr. Piper’s ongoing behavior:
When you are more in love with a complex, human-made set of doctrines than Jesus, the One Who simply died for us because He loves us, it tends to make for a cold, emotionally constipated person. When you are even more in love with your fantasies of fame, authority, and greatness than even those doctrines, you become in time a lonely and thoroughly confused person.
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Lea said
“Does being born with a ‘sin nature’ mean that you have actually sinned?”
No!
You are exactly right, Lea. We might as well call the sin nature what it is- human nature. We are all born with human nature because we are human.
You cannot remove the human nature from a human. We are what we are. We inherited our genetics from Adam. The good news is Jesus Christ has reconciled us to God regardless of human nature.
The insanity about people who see children as evil: the Bible is absolutely clear that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, yet they have this crazy idea they are going to extinguish human nature from their children through physical punishment! If physical punishment could make human beings righteous, Christ would not have had to die.
We all have to live with our human nature for life. There is no amount of flogging that can remove it or help us in our walk with God. We come to God through love, not through fear, intimidation or threat of punishment. We love because he first loved us. We are to love others as he loved us.
1 John 4:18
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.”
Colossians 2:23
“These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”
Children are innocent. They are human beings, just like us, but they are not yet capable of exercising their human nature knowingly for an evil purpose. When that time comes, the most important thing they can know is that Christ loves them and provided the way of forgiveness. The most important example they can have is parents who live by love.
Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 make it clear that Christ’s death removed the penalty of Adam’s sin. No one will be held accountable for what Adam did. He is “the savior of all men, especially those who believe.” (1Tim 4:10)
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Excellent comment, Truth Detector.
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One would think that the doctrine of Original Sin and that of total depravity would bring the believer down to his knees in humility and awe. One would think that these doctrines would lead us to treat others with kindness and gentleness knowing that we are all in the same boat in need of God’grace.
Of course I am fantasizing. In reality, people who adhere to the doctrines of Original Sin and total depravity are among some of the most insufferably self-righteous, sanctimonious, and judgemental on the planet.
Adherents of the doctrine of total depravity use Romans Chapter 1 to beat people over the head with it and rain down condemnation and judgment. It is often the object of politicization. Here is a gem from John MarArthur as an example.
The main problem is that Romans 1 is not a stand alone chapter. The conclusion to Paul’s narrative in Romans 1 is found in the leading passage of Chapter 2 that basically says DO NOT JUDGE. Original manuscripts did not have chapters and verses. They didn’t even have paragraphs. The main thrust of Paul’s message on God’s wrath is NOT TO JUDGE.
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Great point, roscuro. So when they promote “purity,” what exactly are they talking about? Everyone from birth is imaginably vile to begin with, so what “purity” are they speaking of?
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I hate when these pseudo-believers speak of babies as vile sinners or as Voddie Baucham can communicate hunger or pain. It is survival instinct, letting the parent know he/she needs something.
When Piper tweets such hateful nonsense, why would anyone be compelled to love God?? He needs a muzzle on those fingers!!!
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Leave it to JP to tweet utter trash……Thats all he knows, so far as I can tell.
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Good point, David C. I wonder if these people were abused as children with these kind of justifications from their abusers, and they are still trying to justify it in their own minds.
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One of the things that struck me when I first became a “Christian” was just how angry God was / is with us all, especially people like me. That was emphasised how some were far more evil and given over to a reprobate mind. I use to sort of confound some folks I knew is because I lived a celibate life and did not live down to my low calling of being a Romans one degenerate so I did not sin enough to get booted out so I got the big ignore. Eventually, I did get the boot because I spoke up about some issues and asked for help, both sins and I have repented of those sins, thats a bit sarcastic but in a strange way sort of true.
I cant overstate this, I actually was convinced God was some sort of cosmic psychopath that wanted you dead so He could resurrect you in an eternal body so you can experience His Eternal Righteous Wrath in all of its eternal rage. Now of course Jesus died for a very very very very very very very very very few and probably less than that but those very few will enjoy His love, but if you sinned during the Millenial reign of Christ you would immediately be cast into eternal torment for even a millisecond of wrong thinking, rebellion, grumbling signing etc. To be honest, I am still terrified of God in a way, I have actually prayed for God not to Take me out or take out my family etc.
The other issue that really bothered me was just how sure some whom I fellowshipped with convinced me and I believed that my family that past were for sure writhing and burning in eternal torment that very second. That was bad enough but the you did not witness to them and their blood is on your hands was a bit too much back then to handle. The one that probably got me the most was that the developmentally disabled students I worked / work with would also go to hell because they lacked the cognitive ability to fully and perfectly understand all the doctrines of God. It was that constant rhetoric that drove me into universalism, to be honest. This issue is very hard for me to be honest, I have cried many tears even to the point of yelling at God take me to hell if you take them and other such late night grief filled pleas.
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This is more of Piper’s typical equivocation. Reading it at face value, this says that God CAN punish children for their parents’ sin because they are not innocent, and that God only “guarantees” non-punishment for innocent children.
So, it’s a non-sequitor. A completely nonsensical statement.
But, we know that the results of this are not so ridiculous. Piperesque parenting books talk about “willfulness” in 3-6 month old children, as if a 6 month old child is really conniving for your attention at night by crying instead of it being a “need”. I heard parents talking about all the manipulative ways of their 6 month old as if the child had a PhD in psychology.
@brian, my experience was not so dark, but it was similar. I’m still trying to reconcile who God is after being taught by my parents’ actions that God sat around waiting for me to screw up, so that He could joyfully show His justice by reaching across the heavens to put some welts on my backside.
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LorenHaas wrote:
“John Piper’s god is a monster.
This is nothing new for him. He said equally atrocious things following a bridge collapse in MN”
Piper’s god has way more in common with the gods of the Egyptians and the gods of the Canaanites. The God of Abraham isn’t anything like his god.
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For the sake of the Church, will someone close to Piper please close his Twitter account!
I have a dear friend in a Neo Cal church years ago–she had tried for years to have children, then, after finally becoming pregnant, miscarried. She came to me several months later–during a sermon her pastor stated that even children that were miscarried were in hell and separated from God (she is tears as she is telling me this).
First of all, I think David’s statement that he would go to his son is a statement of the reality that the child was in God’s presence. Secondly, even if you believe that infants and misscarried children are in hell, why would you make a production out of saying it, knowing that there is a high probability of many women in the church who have lost children. Incredible insensitivity–I have come to the conclusion that if it does not look like Jesus, or sound like Jesus, it simply isn’t.
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That sermon by Paul Washer has to be one of the top five most disgusting, hateful sermons I have ever heard. I wonder if this man would know the love of God if it hit him in the face with a two by four.
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Disgusting.
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Matthew 18: 2 “Jesus called a little child to come to him. He stood the child in front of the followers. 3 Then he said, “The truth is, you must change your thinking and become like little children. If you don’t do this, you will never enter God’s kingdom. 4 The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.”
How could Piper tweet something like that….and WHY?
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What John Piper actually teaches –
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“Why do you believe that infants who die go to heaven?
I believe it not because of a sentimental notion that babies aren’t participants in the Fall. They are. Babies are participants in original sin.
The question is whether God has a way to cover their sin even before they have a chance to believe. Babies are not mentally able to put faith in Jesus yet, at least not in any terms that we ordinarily understand. And so I think that God provides another way to cover their sin.
I base my belief that God does not condemn babies who die on Romans 1:19-20:
For what can be known about God is plain to them [that is, to mankind] because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Therefore, they are without excuse.
The “therefore” at the end says that mankind would seem to have an excuse if they had not seen clearly in nature what God is like. And so, because I don’t think little babies can process nature and make conclusions about God’s grace, glory or justice, it seems they would fall into the category of still having an excuse.
The way I see it is that God ordains, for his own wise purposes, that at the judgment day all the children who died in infancy will be covered by the blood of Jesus. And they will come to faith, either in heaven immediately or later in the resurrection. And God will not condemn them because he wants to manifest openly and publicly that he does not condemn those who did not have the mental capacities to put their faith in him.
I don’t think imbeciles have that capacity, and I don’t think babies do. Therefore I hold out hope to parents that the loss of an infant is not their eternal loss.”
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If only John Piper’s “Christian” critics were more honest about what he actually teaches.
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Link please, Seneca?
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P.S. to Seneca:
If Piper’s convinced that “all babies go to heaven”, then what’s with his statement in the tweet above? “There are no innocent children.” The implication is, whatever children or babies suffer in this life, they deserve it. So why wouldn’t God allow them to perish forever if that’s what they deserve?
On the other hand, if babies have an “excuse”, as Piper suggests in the passage you quoted, why couldn’t they be considered innocent?
It would be a lot easier for us to be “honest” about the Pied Piper’s teachings, if only they weren’t so head-scratchingly schizophrenic.
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S. Griggs’ Peeper Piper quote can be found at http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-do-you-believe-that-infants-who-die-go-to-heaven, but here’s the point: Preacher Piper persists in promoting the pernicious position that children are worthy of condemnation, not because of anything they have done, but purely on the basis of the arbitrary imputation of Adam’s fault. All to the Glory of God, of course.
If I may borrow somewhat from the passage Anita quotes, the truth is that Piper must change his thinking and become like little children. If he doesn’t do this, he will never enter God’s kingdom. He must repent of the many ways he has abandoned the person of Jesus in favor of a faith in faith. It is in the nursery, not in books–not even in Scripture–that Piper will come to understand the meaning of, and be able to embrace, true faith in Jesus.
Probably, once again, I should be shaking in my boots.
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God ‘imputes’ sin to everyone in Adam, meaning all of his descendants, therefore they are not innocent but have the innate propensity to sin (you don’t have to teach children to do wrong), and imputes the righteousness of Christ to those who have faith – something also not based on what good and evil they have done, but a gift.
Surely it’s not that difficult to understand? At least, in view of Grigg’s quotation above, be prepared to give Piper the benefit of the doubt in what he means by ‘no children are innocent’.
All this dragging in deserving hell and wrath for children and painting a picture of a God who is eagerly wanting to condemn people is a caricature of the NT idea, indeed blasphemous, and I doubt a fair representation of what Piper actually believes – and I am not in his fan club.
Personally, I don’t think God has revealed exactly what happens to children who die in infancy, we can only believe that judge of all the earth will do right.
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KAS,
I find it odd that you want to give Piper the benefit of the doubt, but not little children. Jesus Christ showed us who God is through his actions in human form. He said that we needed to become like them in order to be reconciled with him….child-like faith. Why would the Good Shepherd send a child’s soul to Hell all the while making that comparison???? Respectfully, I think it is you that has difficulty understanding. I have heard adults refer to children as “little sinners”. That is a real good way to start them off on a wrong path, in my opinion.
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Sorry Brenda for the delay. You asked Why would the Good Shepherd send a child’s soul to Hell, but if you look closer at what I wrote I said All this dragging in deserving hell and wrath for children and painting a picture of a God who is eagerly wanting to condemn people is a caricature of the NT idea, indeed blasphemous,… , so I can’t see what your objection to my post is!
I’ve assumed Piper has Rom 5 in mind with his no innocent children comment. Be that as it may, you don’t have to be a Piper fan to object to some of the il-thought out comments and just plain nastiness (it’s not difficult to find example of this) aimed his way. Too many times the word ‘Piper’ is seen, and an emotional response follows that bears little if any resemblance to what Piper actually says.
It’s a strange irony that no-one has any obligation to believe anything Piper says, yet some seem to attribute him an authority he has no power to enforce. He only has as much power of you and your thinking as you give him, and in my case that is not a lot!
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There are no innocent children because we are already sinful the moment we are born. This is because of adam and eve, and the apple. But because Jesus died for us, He will cleanse us when we accept Him as Lord and Savior. Clearly, John Piper is saying it is not because of the sins of our parents that we experience downfall. We just have always existed to be in sin because we are imperfect unlike Jesus.
Only Jesus is a perfect man. Babies arent born as ‘perfect.’
How hard is that to understand? If you read your Bible, youd get it. You of shallow faith.
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Jessica, did the sun forget to shine on your side of the world this morning?
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Jessica Garcia,
We are born “IN” sin, not with sin. No one is “guilty” of ANY sin until they have knowledge of the sin.
1 John 3:4
sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 3:20
the law is the knowledge of sin.
Why did Adam and Eve cover their genitals?
Who told them that they were naked?
What was the words of the name of that tree in the garden?
Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 4:15
where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 7:8
For without the law sin was dead.
Romans 2:14-16
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ed Chapman
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Those were helpful verses, Ed, thank you! Those verses should quiet anyone who suggests that babies who die might go to hell.
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No problem, Julie Anne. I’ve found throughout the internet snooping on various reform sites that Romans 5:13 is not discussed at all. They will intentionally skip over that one verse. They will quote verse 12, skip verse 13, and resume with verse 14. Very deceptive.
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That is very disturbing to pick and choose verses in order to support and promote a particular doctrine. It is definitely deceptive.
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This also gets into another topic, as well. When 1 Cor 15:56 states that “the power of sin is the law.”. Without the law, sin has no power. It’s dead.
This is also one reason that I don’t believe in “Original Sin”. Why?
Because dissecting 1 Cor 15:35-56 shows that Adam was going to die a natural death ANYWAY.
Adam did not start out as an eternal being that lost it. He started out as a dying man that never obtained eternal life, because he never ate of the Tree of Life.
But until he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he was spiritually alive. He only spiritually died at the MOMENT he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
We are not born spiritually dead in trespasses and sin. We die a spiritual death at the moment of that knowledge of Good and Evil, just like Adam and Eve, when they get a guilty conscience, aka Knowledge, that they did something wrong.
Ed
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My first thought was does he have Alheimer’s and or Dementia disease? With what he said; has he abused any children? Then we wonder why wolves, hirelings, false shepherds, snake oil salesmen selling their dead religion just preach and yoke out guilt, condemnation, criticism and belittling and preach a different Bible. He’s NOT like Jesus in that statement; so many walking dead men like him=so sad and then we wonder why young people and or adults DON’T want to come to church with men like this in our pulpits, speaking for the masses and giving us another gospel and Jesus! Worse, people still tithe, attend and give him platform=should NOT be!
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Brian: Wish we could meet (remember your comment about “self-preservation” from another article comments and agreed with you then, in ‘why young people don’t go to church’). I’m not going to listen to the Video by Paul Washer yet, I’ve have to be in the right frame of circumstances of rested. Maybe, someone projected on him as a child ‘he was satan’ as I’ve heard and seen parents do (even so-called christian parents). From your comment maybe he grew up with nothing but total LEGALISM which is nothing but witchcraft per Galatians “who has bewitched you”=Derek Prince does great teachings on legalism and woke me up to Pentecostal Cult was sitting in; in the guise of Christianity; (worse, maybe something horrific happened to P.W., and he is acting out and spewing his dogma on everyone because NOT healed up himself-what were his early years)? Brenda R. have you ever attended that women’s conference in Michigan @ Mackinaw Island twice a year (I would have gone with you to a concert that you mentioned in another blog; had to go to Michigan to see my favorite worship singer alone also)! I’m thinking about ALL the verses regarding Children in the Bible; especially NOT to provoke your children to wrath as so many parents do!
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