Complementarian CBMW Owen Strachan, John MacArthur, John Piper, Grant Castleberry, Albert Mohler, Gavin Peacock
The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is holding their conference, “The Beauty of Complementarity” in Complementarity Capital of the World, Louisville.
The nice thing about live tweeting is that I don’t have to research, it’s coming hot off the press by following the hashtag #CBMW16. They seem to like and tweet a lot of the “cool” phrases their hero leaders say. But a lot of it is not Biblical! It’s pushing their complementarianism (that word is really too long) agenda, which to them says that if you do not believe in husband authority and wife submission in the marriage, they will question whether you really believe the Gospel. Dude, are you really saved?
It’s important to note that CJ Mahaney is speaking at this event despite the fact that there is an ongoing court case regarding the cover up of sexual abuse cases. Also in attendance is John MacArthur. It surprises me that he is sharing a platform with CJ, not only for this reason, but also because MacArthur is rabidly against anything Charismatic. CJ Mahaney has identified as Reformed Charismatic.
Here are some of the notable tweets. I’ll add more at the bottom as time permits.
Here are the books that were handed out:
https://twitter.com/Zhop59/status/719602851849375745
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Seems to me that these guys aren’t promoting complementarianism so much as partriarchy.
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I wanted to be a wife and mother from the time I was little. I love homemaking and I’m fascinated with child development and the needs of infants and children.
I grew up with 2 working parents who both often worked extra jobs (school board, etc) and were home very little. We kids fended for ourselves, back in the day when most moms were at home. I sensed that home could be so much more with someone administering it, filling it with love and meaning.
So in a way it may seem funny that I find this complementarian stuff so offensive! But it is offensive, it’s just all wrong.
Just because this is my natural affinity, doesn’t mean it’s for every woman. Many would be unhappy in my life and they are fantastic at other things.
My husband and I run our own business and we’ve always worked together on everything. We each cover the areas we are most suited to. We do this in our marriage as well. We’ve never been in a situation where one person had to enforce some decision on the other, and I say this after 40 years of marriage. Neither of us wants to do something that would make the other unhappy. Each of us wants to help the other. I kind of find myself at a loss at the examples of “somebody has to be the tie breaker” and so on. No, both need to keep communicating until they come up with the solution that works for both. Both need to be open to and value the other’s perspective.
While I agree that men and women often have different attributes (speaking generally) it’s important to realize that so do all people- no one person has every aspect of personality covered. We all need each other. There are many different parts of the body, not just two. Different temperaments are good at different things. People are free to use the gifts and traits God has given them in the way that brings them joy. There is just no point for a person to be forced into a lifestyle that is wrong for them. There are so many different ways to live, so many different ways to be happy! Just like how some people love the city life and some love the country life. There isn’t one narrow “right way” that you have to live or be. There’s not just one right way to do marriage, or be a mom or a dad or a person.
All of this stuff is just personal preference. It is NOT the gospel. It is not the way to God. Adding anything to Jesus Christ is wrong. The gospel is Jesus Christ, and him alone.
The same fruits of the spirit are found in men and women, single or married, young or old. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. It doesn’t matter who you are, what job you are doing, where you live, whether you’re married, single, a parent, or whatever. These things are the same for all. He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee, to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Everything is summed up in one word: love.
Jesus came to save us from our sin. He accomplished his goal. Why is that not enough? Why is there always this drive to set up some elaborate, restrictive system?
Sorry for the long rant. I’m just trying to say it is okay to be who you are and to do life the way that is comfortable and brings joy to you! You are not under any other human being’s spiritual authority.
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“Seems to me that these guys aren’t promoting complementarianism so much as partriarch”
What do you think the differences are? Piper coined the term. How is it less cognitive dissonet than, say the coined,. Servant leader?
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This sort of ‘christianity’ leaves single women out of church entirely.
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Lea — It’s a good thing that this type of Christianity ignore single women. We get to pray and follow Jesus without their approval or permission. Their blindness makes it easy for us to go and do whatever he calls us to.
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I hear what you’re saying..but I feel sorry for people in these churches and these worlds. I went to a mega on Valentine’s Day and a guy gave a sermon on marriage. (I was visiting out of town precisely because I came off a bad relationship and wanted to have fun instead of thinking about it, so you can imagine how happy I was 🙂
But the friend, also single, was just thrilled that the preacher even devoted a minute to saying something about single people (I don’t remember what but he stuck it in at the end). I found that so sad. That you would go to church to be encouraged and find a whole sermon devoted to people that are not you. I imagine it’s like that constantly in some of these places.
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Shy1,
Like! Thank-you for sharing your heart with us. Your words speak truth in learning to work hard, get along, and do what is best for your family, your business, as well as being fulfilled personally as Christ meant for His children here on earth.
Following Jesus and His Ways are so much easier outside of the iron wall of what masquerades itself as the Christian religion with its continuous rantings over ‘hierarchy and submission.’ And as Lydia mentioned, the term “servant leader” is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, yes, another man-made term to support a wicked and evil agenda.
So appreciated Wary Witness educating us to the facts of testosterone and how this hormone is now being applied to God’s Word. Guess I haven’t found the Scriptures where Jesus, His disciples and Apostles were throwing their testosterone around acting like lord it over macho men.
What is hierarchy afraid of? The fear of man is a greater weight upon the soul than the fear of God.
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On a different note, can we talk about the stock photos chosen for ‘biblical womanhood’ and ‘biblical manhood’ pamphlets?
Man: walking a tightrope
Woman: rain on a leaf???
What?
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Between me and my wife … my wife would probably be more complementarian and I would be more egalitarian just in how we think on an every day basis.
I feel the issue is much more broader than a complementarian problem vs egalitarian problem. Let me try to explain what I believe I have seen.
In my area we have a fairly complex church network of Churches and all have a unique DNA and heritage. A few of the churches that are complementarian are also systems of churches that have set themselves up as being known for “higher truth” than the other churches. Quite often when people leave churches for whatever reason the go on a search for a new church. Well, what better church to search for than one known for “higher truth… right? My wife and I had a long discussion on one such church a few years ago and I am so thankful I yielded to her words. I believe what she sensed was a people DNA at this church that was very legalistic, inflexible, and rigid. One of the other things they were was “complementarian”.
My point being is that at a larger level the issue is not really an abuse of gender roles (complementarianism) but it is really more broadly church systems that “abuse truth”. Abusive people are drawn to higher truth because it allows them control and it keeps them in their black and white/all or nothing world! It helps them maintain control!
As a reference point … the church that I am speaking about above was also a Church that John Piper attended when he was on sabbatical. It was not a Piper Church…. but a close cousin.
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@lydia00:
“Use the proper Code Words: ‘Relocation’, ‘Resettlement’, ‘Delousing’…”
— line from Seventies TV Miniseries Holocaust
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@Lea:
Because they can only think in terms of Power Struggle — Dom or Sub, Top or Bottom, Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip, NOTHING in between, NOTHING ELSE EXISTS. Only Power Struggle exists in their cosmos; their minds literally cannot envision anything other than Power Struggle and Animal Dominance Display. Anything else is a Total Null Concept — even the idea Cannot Possibly Exist.
There have been several examples of this in history. I don’t think I need to list the best-known.
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After years of thinking we had to be complimentarians to be true Christians, we have discovered that, in reality, we are egalitarian. We love, respect and submit to one another and together, submit to Jesus. What freedom and peace there is in just living life, loving one another and wanting the best for one another. All that other stuff is law, power grabbing crap.
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A powerful reminder HUG, one worth contemplating.
In complementarian churches, it is the male leadership that desires the praise, the applause, the CENTER of attention, the all knowing all/all seeing advice and wisdom so ‘generously’ given to the rest of us in how to live our lives all the while misusing Scriptures to force submission on the rest of us……and what I have noticed within these constructs is this……when those who are supposed to be insubordinate receive some sort of special recognition, or award, or have accomplished something that only our LORD could have had His Hand upon……the dominant personalities get
1) very, very angry
2) jealous
3) envious
4) vindictive in trying to destroy you as an individual child of God through manipulative methods of control
…..so in the end, everything that a child of God is or does is supposed to reflect back on the “amazing” leadership style of the patriarch or complementarian type of hierarchy. Have experienced this humanistic phenom in every church that I have attended during my adult years where one can ‘feel the power,’ and it’s not coming from the Holy Ghost.
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I know a fictional character whom that reminds me of:
“The whole philosophy of Hell rests on recognition of the axiom that… one self is not another self. My good is my good, and your good is yours. What one gains, another loses… ‘To be’ means ‘to be in competition’.”
“Of course [God] cannot really love: nobody can: it doesn’t make SENSE!”
— C.S. Lewis, “The You-Know-Who Letters”
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Centrality, I agree with you that at back of all of these abusive aspects of religious systems lies the basic abuse of the truth.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the term DNA but I am feeling like, in terms of differing heritage, churches are becoming more homogenous, due to the phenomenon of the ‘parachurch organization’ which makes inroads everywhere. Both laypeople and clergy pick up ideas/concepts/teachings through books, conferences, devotionals/studies, etc. Many believers don’t understand the differing theology behind the popular books and teachings they digest. Slowly but surely, lines are being blurred.
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By DNA I mean the chemical makeup of the entire church staff as well as the people. When my wife and I were church shopping we often said somethings does feel or smell right.
A meant for fun statement here. Blurr the lines at a Piper or Sovereign Grace church!!!! Such Heresy! Their DNA would forbid it!
Blurring is probably the other end of the spectrum from what I was thinking of in my original post.
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“Jesus came to save us from our sin. He accomplished his goal. Why is that not enough? Why is there always this drive to set up some elaborate, restrictive system?”
Your comment reminded me of 2 Peter chapter 1.
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Lea — Re Your comment of April 13, 2016 @ 5:12 AM
It sucks to hear a sermon on the delights of marriage on Valentine’s Day weekend, knowing that many of the marriages in that church are horrible.
Many pastors preach uninformed sermons.
They don’t realize 45% of adult Evangelical Christians are single. In my opinion, if pastors aren’t seeing a lot of singles in their pews, it’s because they’ve chased them away. I left a church because of calloused words from the pastor.
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By the way, Evangelical Christians are
— poorer
— less educated
— more blase about church attendance
— less likely to attend a prayer group or Bible study
— less likely to have a sense of wonder about the universe
than most of us expect.
69% of Evangelical Christians do not have a child under 18 living at home.
See Pew Research’s excellent study on the U.S. Religious Landscape.
http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/evangelical-protestant/
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Can this just be over? Can I wake up now?
I was over at the blog of a certain patriarchal pastor (whose books were being sold at T4G) reading commenters debating whether women needed any education after high school. Boy do I feel loved right now. I mean, some of those people thought it was okay to educate women as long as the women didn’t get too uppity or think they would be allowed to use their knowledge for something other than homeschooling the kids.
Can I wake up in a world where I have some value as something other than wife/mother/homemaker? Dear God, will I ever stop wondering if I was really supposed to be just a walking uterus?
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I’d be interested in your thoughts on this. Sarah’s comment brought to mind a couple of situations close to me.
I have two friends who are university educated women. One is a single believer and the other is a married unbeliever.
The single believer spent 5 years studying and has 5 years of work experience. She had a large student loan.
The married woman I know has an 80k debt. She has one child. Her husband also has university debt.
I am not opposed to women or men going to University.
But I do wonder how prudent it is to accumulate 80k in student debt for a degree which you don’t use for a large portion of your life as you’re raising kids.
I didn’t go to Uni.
Is it a good thing for young women to forsake marriage in pursuit of a university degree, accumulating large debt and then potentially not meeting someone later in life once you’ve worked a few years to justify the degree?
Not provoking I’m just wondering where in this scenario is a young woman able to meet and marry and bear children?
Yes I know that not every young woman wants to get married and have kids.
But I know more than a few university educated women who are near the end of their twenties and are now stressing out bc they haven’t got a life partner and would like to start families.
Is it really that wrong to encourage women to marry and bear children?
Must every woman get a university education to be validated?
I worked for years and bought a place without an ‘education’.
Is it really that important?
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Centrality, they are so active with the conferences and the books and speaking engagements, it’s hard to find a church that isn’t impacted in some way.
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I think on this subject of education, it needs to be the woman’s choice as to what path she will follow in life, NOT someone else’s. A degree is not necessary for every person, but some kind of skill or trade to sustain themselves is. A woman has no idea what her future holds and should be prepared to support herself if she ever needs to. She may not meet a man who is right for her, she may be widowed, she may marry a scoundrel who is not what he seemed to be, her husband may be disabled… She should never be in the position where she is forced into an unwanted marriage as a way to survive.
No person should ever be stopped from seeking an education because of their sex.
There were a lot of women who grew up in the Gothard organization who were not allowed an education, I’ll bet some of them have something to say on the importance of it.
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@lifewithaporpoise
“Is it really that important?”
As a woman who is academically gifted (pursuing a Master’s in OT Biblical Studies right now, and I do believe it is my calling to work in this field) hearing people speak about education (really education for most people but especially for women) as unhelpful and unimportant almost robbed me of something wonderful.
Of course, not everyone is supposed to go into academics, but there are so many amazing options that open up with various kinds of education. What if someone wanted to be a cardiologist? An engineer? Etc. There are so many pursuits which do require specialized education.
Sure, it’s not for everyone, but treating higher ed for women as an unimportant thing does hurt us. It’s not about “validation,” it’s about gifts, abilities, and, yes, wants and desires.
What does it mean “to encourage women to marry and bear children?” I think if that encouragement means telling women that they shouldn’t develop their skills AND SEEK TO USE THEM, then yes. It is very wrong.
I am married. I plan to have children, Lord willing. I also intend to use and develop what God gave me thankyouverymuch.
Honestly, I’d beg you to find another way to talk about this topic. The above sounded like everything I heard growing up which held me back and hurt me deeply.
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Sarah – which blog were you reading?
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Doug Wilson’s post on why men should get married by 23
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I have four or five blog posts on my blog about complementarianism. Here is one of them:
Even Warm and Fuzzy, True, Correctly-Implemented Gender Complementarianism is Harmful to Women, and It’s Still Sexism – Yes All Comps (Refuting “Not All Comps”)
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Lifewithporpoise,
If you were to ask me this question 10 years ago, I probably would have said that it’s not that important. Now, after seeing first-hand the difficulties women face when they are forced to find employment at the age of 40 or 50, I am very convinced that women should have marketable skills or a degree that can lead to marketable skills. A friend of mine worked and put her husband through school, then stayed home and raised a large family. Her husband left her for another woman and now she has gone back to school in her early fifties. I can name more than a handful of women that I know personally who have gone through challenging circumstances (divorce, abuse, medical issues) and now must either go to school or find a means of earning $$. These were women who married young and had lots of babies. 😦
When we are Christian, we want to believe that marriage is for life, that our spouses will not betray the marital vows. Sadly, the divorce rate for Christians is the same as non-Christians. All of those women I referred to thought their marriages would last. They didn’t.
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Oh, well that explains it. In his world, marriage is permanent, even in abuse. And if wife is abused, she must not be submitting enough. Is it a recent post?
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Sarah said Re lifewithaporpoise’s post:
I second that.
Women are already shamed and pressured enough in secular culture -and ten times more in Christian culture- to marry and have children….
-AND- women get shamed and criticized for when and how many kids they have AND if/ when/ what type of birth control, if any, they might use.
You can’t have just one kid, no, you must have two or more, and God forbid you have you first child at age 30+; no, you must have the first one by 20-something.
You can’t just marry, no no no. That is not good enough.
You must marry by age 20 or 25 (the age varies from denomination to denomination), and you can’t just marry a guy, it has to be a CHRISTIAN guy (equally yoked!! – barf), and it can’t just be any Christian man, it has to be a guy who is older than you, and he has to out-earn you, he has to be your “spiritual leader”.
Single women who want to marry cannot anyway, because it’s a numbers game (lack of males to marry, unless one wants to ditch the “equally yoked” view and perhaps marry outside the faith).
See this article about Jews and Mormons? It’s the same thing among Christians:
_What 2 Religions Tell Us About the Modern Dating Crisis_
(There is probably more I could say about that post and some of the others on here, and the original post, but it’s been a long day for me, and I’m getting tired. I really don’t know how much longer I’ll be on the internet tonight.)
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Yes, an education is valuable even if you plan to stay home when you have kids!! To equate education with just your ability to make money and have a career is shortsighted in the extreme. And practically speaking, I stayed home with my kids and now that my youngest is in jr high I’m back at work. It was a 14 year break. I began my career right out of college at 21. Say I retire right at 65. Even with a gap of 14 that’s still 30 years of work in an excellent field thanks to my education!
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Yes, on Monday.
Yeah, a couple of commenters appear to have Red Pill/MGTOW tendencies (including specific mentions of those “philosophies” by name), so they most likely think abuse, at least emotional forms of it, is just how women need to be treated.
I seriously regret going in there. It’s like a train wreck though. There’s a sick compulsion . . .
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Well, in that camp, we already know that women are viewed as objects. Why would an object need an education? @@ <- eyes rolling
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Oh, it was the Wilsonites dumping all over wimmin’s education. Shockeroo.
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Thanks for your response ladies.
Sarah, my comment wasn’t meant to be taken personally.
That’s great you are academically gifted.
I make excellent lasagne.
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The question of whether 80k in debt is a good idea is completely separate from the question of whether women should get an education.
I went to business school – kids, men and women, should be doing a cost benefit analysis on their educations and really thinking about what they need and want. There are ways to go college without getting that deeply into debt.
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@JA:
In that camp, all the object needs is a tight vagina, a working womb, and “she’s… ovulating”; all else is superfluous.
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@Shy1:
AKA the Teens… in the denim jumpers… with the long… loooong… waaaavy… haaaair… (insert heavy breathing)
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@Lydia00:
One-upmanship.
Because the more elaborate and restrictive you are, the more Godly you must be.
“This PROVES I AM OF THE ELECT! (AND YOU’RE NOT!!!”)
And because an elaborate, restrictive system always has to have someone at the apex of the pyramid enforcing the restrictions.
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Bingo. Once you realize it’s all about power and control, you know who to run away from.
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Ok, this gem from Doug Wilson is my favorite:
Feminism is a toxic mess. The best and only complete answer to it is for men to find a woman early, love her completely, feed and educate her children, and bring her as much happiness as you are capable of bringing someone. As one Puritan put it, and man should first choose his love, and then love his choice. Young Christian men should marry in such a way as to make celebration of a 75th anniversary a much greater likelihood.
In other words, marry them young enough that they won’t become feminists as long as you treat them right. (Or become disabled, or die young, or develop an addiction, or…)
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Doug Wilson on children:
“…and those parents who are carefully planning to have their eldest hit kindergarten when they are in their mid-thirties are not, shall we say, “thinking ahead.” Delayed marriage is problematic pacing.”
It’s only problematic in Wilsonville, where couples are routinely expected to have more than 2 or 3 children unless infertility strikes.
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Oh, that Lydia!
“Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.” Acts 16:14-15
“So they all went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia; and when they had seen the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.” Acts 16:40
Great truth here as Lydia is an amazing women that is worthy of our LORD mentioning her in His Holy Word. She sold textiles and evidently was a successful business woman, a believer whose heart was for the LORD, and hospitable in that she begged the Apostles to come stay in her home. And when these Apostles were released from prison, they once again visited her home to encourage the Body of Jesus Christ. Not much complementarian or egalitarianism going on here, but a prime example of how the Body of Jesus relates/interacts with one another. A wonderful display of love for Jesus and a love for the brethren.
There is not much history concerning Lydia in our Scriptures nor are there too many sermons mentioning her, period. It is usually when we study the Scriptures for ourselves that we can truly love what God is speaking to us through His Words.
The complementarian camp is not without their imperfect double standards as well, in applying their rigid role defining standards within the visible church, and this toxic form of religion has affected the minds of not only the men, but the women as well. Case in point, when we lost a family member due to brain cancer, a huge void needed to be filled on our farm for one man cannot do all of the work in most agricultural businesses. Someone needed to step up to the plate and fill that important position and throughout time, that person was to be me. I had to learn to drive tractors with tillage machinery trailing behind, single axe trucks, semi trucks, combines, in addition to operating the dryer systems and computerized testing equipment. I was overwhelmed, frightened, and oh so tired, and leaned our LORD for His Strength in getting me through most days…..for the tears flowed so freely in my private moments and if I had a buck for every tear, I would be an incredibly wealthy woman! In addition, our children needed to be taken care of and my household chores were always left, well, to me for the male gender in agriculture really don’t pitch in to help much in the house, yard and garden. That’s just the way it is. My ‘farm’ instruction was under a most patriarchal system, no doubt, with very little patience and few compliments nor encouragement, and yet Jesus had never ever forsaken me.
And when I was going through this learning process, there were days that were so dark and depressing that I so needed another human being to come alongside of me, if only to say, “You know, you are so loved by the King, and He’s going to make sure that everything is going to be alright.” Instead, I had the privilege of speaking with two “complimentary” women from two distinct church systems, one belonged to a pentecostal/charismatic church and the other woman was from a Covenant church, with a week of one another. In pouring out my soul and needing some form of comfort for I was struggling, big time, the first woman said (now mind you, these are women who believe in the patriarchy, comp system) and I quote, “Well, when I married my husband, I told him right out that I was not going to be his “farm hand!”
The second women told me point blank, “I told my husband when we got married that “NO WAY” was I going out to the field to work for you!”
Wow! Did I ever get an ear full (both ears) from complementarian women that have told me in the past that I am to submit to my husband in all ways. I sense a deep, dark double standard here and it broke my heart that neither conceited woman even offered to pray for me, both having deacon and church board positions within their religious institutions.
I was amazed with their cold, harsh answers to my suffering and pain. Just shocked. And people like this wonder why many of us choose to confide in unchurched folks who love and follow Jesus outside of organized religion, who make the time to pray for the brethren.
So no, I am personally not impressed with comp worm theology, nor am I impressed with the double standards from those who profess to be Christian. And at the end of the day, those churched folks around me get offended when I say, “There is such a wonderful diversity in the Body of Christ! His freedom reigns supreme!”
And that’s just it….we are called “the Body.” Our human bodies consist of many parts and without them, we would be at a loss, and so it is with the Body of Christ, many parts, many gifts, and many blessings…..and we all need each other, especially in the areas of encouragement and edification.
Would love to try your lasagna lifewithaporpoise, it sounds super delicious. Have to go out to the field now and pick rocks so they don’t clog up the combine this fall. Been there, done that, and it makes for an unhappy day. It’s also the best place for me to sing Psalms and worship our LORD Jesus in peace, love, and some good wholesome dirt! Praise the LORD!
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Also, am wondering if I am a feminist since I love driving semi truck in hauling our corn and soybeans to the elevator for pay? Or am I an anti-feminist when there’s a wedding dress to be altered at the sewing machine my husband bought for me?
Like I asked before, who defines exactly what feminism is for this gal is getting more and more confused here. And to all of those women who desire a college education….go for it and do the very best that you can, we are for you! And to those who do not choose the higher educational route in desiring to pursue other family goals….again……go for it and do the best job that you possibly can, we are for you there as well. In the end, on Judgement Day, will this really be an issue with our LORD and Master when we will be in His Holy Presence? Really?
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@lifewithporpoise
I hear that it wasn’t meant to be taken personally. I’m just trying to inform you that the way you spoke can really hurt real people.
It really hurt me last night to read those dismissive words. I’m still fighting to convince myself that I’m worth something as my first comment made ABUNDANTLY clear. You know the bit about feeling like a walking uterus? That’s not a joke. I have called my brother in tears asking him to remind me that being a woman doesn’t take away my personhood. Patriarchy/complementarianism has caused me a lot of pain and it is personal when people hear my suffering and say “You know what? Let’s converse about whether we should tell women to stay home and have kids!”
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@ServingKidsInJapan:
The Zero-Sum Game. Where the only way for ME to Win is to MAKE YOU LOSE.
I just read that in John DeLancie’s voice…
Now I’ve heard Andy Serkis did a real bang-up dramatic reading of Screwtape Letters for a radio series once (and really chewed the scenery at the end as Screwtape orgasms in anticipation of devouring My Dear Wormwood); does anyone think John DeLancie’s voice and delivery would also make a great Screwtape?
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Sarah said,
I don’t know about lifewithporpoise in particular, but the other lady higher on this page (Cindy, I think the name was), and similar ladies, often misunderstand people who reject complementarian views and what we’re saying.
I’ve had to point out on the other blog (WW blog) a few times before that me rejecting comp views (I was raised as a comp) does not mean I hate motherhood or marriage, because a few of the home-maker wives over there were assuming I was someone “putting down” marriage, motherhood, or homemaking, and they got offended. (I was doing no such thing, I was not putting down marriage or motherhood.)
I find it frustrating I have to sometimes remind women of this, that I am not anti-marriage or anti-motherhood. I still hold out hope that one day I will marry myself, so I obviously do not ‘hate’ marriage.
Some of them think if you disagree with complementarianism, and its obsession with marriage and motherhood (and confining women based on their gender only), this must mean you hate marriage and motherhood. No, that’s not the case.
If a woman of her own free will chooses to be a wife, mother, or stay at home mother, and she does not want to get a college education (though I think it’s to a woman’s benefit to get a degree), that is fine with me (not that you need my approval).
My problem is that women in most of Christianity are fed propaganda from the time they are girls (this is true of me) that the ONLY proper, true, biblical, or worthy way to live life if you are female is to get married, have children, and be a SAHM (stay at home mother).
So, if you are a woman who does not want to marry, have a child, or be a SAHM, or you cannot marry (there are no single men where you live for you to marry), or you are infertile, you get treated poorly by the complementarian culture.
Comps have a tendency to value womanhood only in terms of
Woman = Mother / Wife
-And that view is what I am opposed to, not to motherhood or wifehood itself.
If you are childless, child free, infertile, single, divorced, or widowed, you are treated like a weirdo, failure, flawed, or with suspicion by many Christians, especially the ones who are into comp attitudes.
If you choose to be a wife, mother, forgo college education, I don’t have a problem with that.
But I see most of Christian culture shaming or marginalizing women for being single or childless…
A lot of single women have to gain employment to pay their bills, which in turn involves having to get a college degree.
For the most part. With some burger places now paying $15 per hour, that may be a bit moot now(?), but for the most part, if you want a job that pays $15, -$20, or more per hour (a livable wage), you have to get a college degree. A college degree becomes a necessity, not a supposed feminist luxury.
(continued in part 2)
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I am fine with women freely choosing to live a traditional, SAHM life.
But I do question just how many (especially Christian women raised in comp) have actually chosen it of their own volition, and how many were pressured, shamed, or brain-washed into it – and may not even realize it.
I just left a long post over at this defensive complementarian Patheos blog post (“You’re Pro-Woman? Then Ditch the Complementarian Caricatures” by Chelsen Vicari) explaining, though, that not all women willingly choose the “wife and mom” route of complementarianism.
That lady’s blog who wrote that post is acting weird, by the way – I cannot tell if she is deleting people’s posts, or if there are technical problems, but sometimes my posts on her page disappear and may reappear later, or some stay vanished.
Assuming my post about it is still on her page, you can read one of my posts there, the one where I explain women who grew up in traditional, complementarian churches or families do not always knowingly choose to be only wives, mothers, or even comps:
You’re Pro-Woman? Then Ditch the Complementarian Caricatures (comment by Daisy)
Here are some snippets from my reply to another person on that other blog:
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Seems to me that many people who follow this system come from families who are middle to upper class and generally have at least the opportunity for a college education. They live in a bubble and display a “false facade” of humility.
They say things like, “God has blessed us with xyz” and don’t recognize that they are really bragging about the advantages they were born with (white skin, family money, education, social connections, above average intelligence etc) that allow them to have a stay at home mom, husband with a good paycheck and private “Christian” school for the kids.
If they homeschool, mom usually has a college degree (which is a good thing).
I was born into that upper-middle class life and it would certainly make it easy to lord it over other believers and act like I am able to stay home, because I am obedient to God. That is bs. I can stay at home, because both my husband and I were born into families who could send us to college (no debt for us) and give us connections to “live well”
I say this with some anger, because I am surrounded by well-off Christians who are so rigid and have no appreciation for the opportunities they were given. They have no empathy for the struggles most of the world is born into. Their world is black and white and “everyone” should live “Biblically” and that God always provides for those whose families are living by the Gospel. (Stay at home mom, working dad and a gazillion children).
But, do they help support the widows and orphans? The poor? The sick? No! They are too busy bragging about their daughter’s virginity!!! I look at all the believers who struggle to make ends meet, single parents, the disabled, those who hold several jobs and seeing their belief and love of God is where I find the real Jesus. Jesus commands us to love God and to love our neighbors. Piper and his ilk are missing the mark when they focus on this man made Gospel marriage which can distract from the true Gospel message-Jesus.
I know this is a rant, but I want to call out and challenge those believers with privilege to not mistaken their advantages as an indication of their position with God. They (we) need to step down and listen closely to the abused, abandoned and disenfranchised believers who put the rest of us “elitists” to shame!
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NJ said
Wilson has a limited view of feminism. He assumes all of feminism is equivalent to the bra-burning, man hating women who never shave their legs.
Secular feminists are actually more varied than that, and Christian feminists are generally nothing like that, either.
I don’t use the label “feminist” myself (to describe my views) because it has a lot of baggage and is more often associated with liberalism (I am more right wing).
Yet, I don’t view secular feminist as being the enemy of Christianity, or not near so much as a lot of right wingers and Christians make it out to be.
I thought this blog post (by a Christian) did a good job on all that:
Perhaps Feminism is not the Enemy
NJ said
That is probably what he (Wilson) meant, and I suspect that is one reason a lot of gender comps (at least the ones who have noticed a shift in demographics) pressure women to marry young now.
It’s easier to lock women into marriage and motherhood if you nab them when they are young, because young women (and men) are usually pretty naive about life and are easier to control and sway.
However, even if a woman marries at 20 or 25, there is no guarantee her marriage will last. That is, assuming she can get out of the marriage, has the funds to support herself, etc.
Wilson (and other like-minded Christians) may think he can keep a woman from discovering certain truths about life or herself if she marries young, but even if a woman doesn’t dabble in feminism in her 20s or whatever else, I can tell you the simple process of aging, where you gain tons of life experience, will open a woman’s eyes.
By the time that naive 21 year old grows to be 35, 40, or 50, her eyes will be opened. Even if, the whole time, she’s been living the Wilson- approved S.A.H.M. lifestyle for women. Some women just naturally start to view life and themselves differently when they reach certain points in life.
They might look around when they are 40 years old and realize they are not the same person as they were when they were 20, and they don’t want to be married to the same guy they married when they were 20.
Indoctrination, propaganda, and brain-washing can only work for so long in a person’s life, before Reality and Life Experience sets in, and one’s eyes are opened. A woman does not need secular feminism for that to happen.
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I think people hear a point and immediately apply it to themselves. So if someone says negative things about the comp stuff, they think ‘that’s not me!’. By the same token, I hear the comp ‘wife/mother only’ stuff and think ‘that’s not me’. Where the comp folks go overboard imo is in insisting that everyone be like them, value what they value, and that there is only one way to live your life. There are many ways.
Not to go on and on about Corrie Ten Boom again, but she fell in love, the man married someone with money instead, and then she lived her entire life as a single woman. Yet, she was at the center of a hub protecting people from the Nazi’s. She suffered greatly for it. She went around after preaching and teaching about it. People benefited greatly from her life and her teaching and it had nothing to do with her being a wife or mother!
If she had followed these folks notions, she would have never done those things. Their restrictions are wrong. They are misguided. They are not of god. We point these things out, not because there is anything wrong with being a wife, mother, staying at home, etc, but because not everyone has the same path in their lives. And because these (often rather young) men who try to dictate them know nothing of what they should be. They are not god.
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I would like to thank the organizers of CBMW for making it crystal-clear that 40-something, single adult males like myself are persona no grata and have absolutely no place whatsoever in the modern evangelical church.
I mean really, they couldn’t make it any clearer unless they started an actual pogrom to hunt us all down and exterminate us. Assholes.
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Dash said
As I was just saying at the Patheos blog by that complementarian lady (see my earlier post on this thread), the majority (not all, but majority) or complementarianism is CONSUMED by married mothers.
Yes, you’ll occasionally get a blog post by a John Piper type telling unmarried women what they may or may not do career-wise, but even guys like him usually are FIXATED on MARRIAGE and PARENTHOOD.
Most complementarians don’t give a whit about single men or single women.
I’m a never married, 40 something lady, I never had any kids (am still celibate). I can count the number of articles or sermons I’ve heard for people such as myself by comps (or Christianity overall) on one hand.
Almost all complementarian books, blog pages, and sermons are admonishing women how to be a submissive wife and mother, when not publishing the occasional blog post that women should not be preachers or elders.
There is about nothing by comps for single, childless, childfree men and women who are over the age of 30 or 40.
I think all this points to the fact comps have an agenda: it’s to keep married men at the top of the power pyramid of church and family, keep married women in their place, and give nothing to single women. Single men are also rather hosed in this comp economy.
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Hi Ann. Your point is interesting.
Daisy, I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents didn’t have the money for me to go to University and I didn’t qualify for Government assistance. So I didn’t get an ‘education’.
But I did get an incredible job which was a ridiculous answer to prayer, that educated friends of mine were unable to get through applying. It’s a story for another day but my point is that God provided for me despite my lack of education.
Did I mention I was kicked out of home young?
God provides.
I only had Him.
I’m not religious.
I hate church men and those who would command a salary to sprout their God views. I’m open about it.
Sarah, I apologise that my opinion upsets you.
My friend who is a single lawyer is upset too.
She’s bypassed opportunities to pursue a law degree. She now realises that degree won’t give her the children she now desires.
This is my friend and I see this upset and ask, “why?”
She chose her path and the consequences are real for her.
Others simply don’t find that other half. They might want to marry but do not. I’m sorry for people like this as it would be hard to see others getting together and ticking those boxes.
Daisy, I chose to marry quickly and have as many kids as I can. I’m happy to a family of five or more. I love babies. I don’t care if people hurt by religion think I’m an idiot. I was recently asked by a young woman what I think she should study at uni.
I didn’t tell her, “do whatever you want”
I asked her, “do you want to get married someday?”
She said “yes”
I suggested studying something that would help her in the home.
That is, sewing and cooking.
Does this offend you?
I know women who can’t cook pasta nor mend a button.
Should we be proud of this?
It’s great my friend has a law degree. Truly.
But she’s desperate to marry and has been taught by society that basic domestic skills are not necessary.
This just doesn’t sit right with me.
FWIW: I’m happily married.
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I know men who can’t cook pasta nor mend a button.
Should we be proud of this?
No reason to limit these concerns to women, honey. My husband and I split the chores, thanks.
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lifewithporpoise said:
APRIL 14, 2016 @ 7:04 PM
Daisy, I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents didn’t have the money for me to go to University and I didn’t qualify for Government assistance. So I didn’t get an ‘education’.
But I did get an incredible job which was a ridiculous answer to prayer, that educated friends of mine were unable to get through applying. It’s a story for another day but my point is that God provided for me despite my lack of education.
Did I mention I was kicked out of home young?
…Daisy, I chose to marry quickly and have as many kids as I can. I’m happy to a family of five or more. I love babies. I don’t care if people hurt by religion think I’m an idiot. I was recently asked by a young woman what I think she should study at uni.
Start Daisy’s reply:
I don’t know what to make of this. So you didn’t go to college – okay.
I did not judge women poorly in any of my posts about this but even said it’s okay with me if they want to do the June Cleaver thing and be a SAHM and not go to college.
I completely affirmed your lifestyle choices or situations in a post or two I made above. I did not insult women who did not go to college.
However, the fact remains, in the sort of economy we live in today, most jobs that pay a livable wage require some sort of college degree. So I do think it is beneficial and wise for people to get a college degree if they can.
You feel that God provided a great job for you. That’s great.
But God doesn’t always answer every prayer we have.
God let my mother drop dead from cancer, for example, though I prayed and prayed for her healing. I have no husband, in spite of years of praying to God for one. On and on I could go with examples of prayers that have not been answered for me.
God does not provide for everyone everything they need or want even if they trust and pray to him.
I really, really do not care for the second part of your reply. I no where said that women who have kids are “idiots.”
I actually went out of my way above to explain in one or two posts above that I am NOT opposed to women who choose to have kids or get married.
You have usually been a complete jerk to me in the comments, and I have no idea why.
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Post Script. Reply to lifewithporpoise
I took home education while I was in school, including cooking and sewing.
Those qualities – homemaking qualities such as cooking and sewing – are not necessary to get married, not in any year past 1969, and not unless one is marrying into the Duggar family. I cannot believe you seem to seriously think learning to sew a button to a shirt is necessary for a woman to get married in 2016.
The guy I was engaged to be married to went to chef school for a few years. He did most of the cooking in our relationship.
People do not fit into neat little gender boxes.
If a man I dated insisted I know sewing and cooking for him to continue dating me or to marry me, I would be turned off and run away from him.
You said,
No, it does not offend me. Should it?
Are you assuming it would?
If you are assuming I am “offended” by it, go back and read my posts on this page and the prior one, because I specifically said that I am NOT opposed to women who marry, have kids, or who don’t go to college.
I do, however, find your views unhelpful to women who want to marry, and they are archaic – and they’re insulting because you are attributing views to me that I do not hold when I have gone out of my way in this thread (and older ones on this blog) to say I am not against motherhood, marriage, etc.
You said,
Her learning to sew a button to a shirt is not a guarantee she will get a mate, but if a Mr. Right never enters her life, her law degree will help her pay her bills.
There are no guarantees anyone will get a spouse in life, regardless of what they do ~ learn to cook, sew, get a law degree, play poker, take up ballet as a hobby, learn French, visit the art museum, take a bus to Chicago, learn to fly a plane, eat a doughnut, play frisbee with a dog, go surfing…
I think you are a dishonest person and enjoy getting people upset – deliberately.
Which is why I may be scrolling past any posts by you in the future rather than read them and feel compelled to respond.
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@Daisy
Thank you. Thank you.
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Indeed. Also, there is the food network, the internet, and tons of other places you can learn this stuff if you want to. But 20 year old guys don’t particularly care about any of it. My grandmother was a school teacher and had a degree in home ec. But it is not going to help you catch a man, which it sounds like you are saying. Honestly, if you want to talk about Mrs. Degree strategy that’s a whole different ballpark.
I will say I found your tone both insulting and bragging and terribly insensitive.
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I have family working in Australia so we must keep in mind the differences in the ‘three legged stool (government/politics, social structure, economics.) I believe lifewithaporpoise mentioned she if from this beautiful country which is far different than the U.S., and yet the people are very much the same.
Australia’s minimum wage is much, much higher than the U.S., with the prices of your goods and services much higher as well, although if one is frugal, one can find some great deals. The country as a whole is more Socialist than the U.S. with most industry being outsourced to other countries due to the fact that the minimum wages are so incredibly high. The U.S. is slowly adopting this form of economics as many manufacturing plants are relocating outside of our national boundaries in pursuit of cheaper labor. This is a tragedy for our country to be sure for we NEED these jobs to strengthen our middle class which is the backbone of our economy.
I was shocked to learn while staying in Australia that this government mandates by law, that every person is required to vote in elections. And if a ballot is not received by their government of every person of voting age, then the individual is fined and required to pay money for not showing up to vote or sending in an absentee ballot.
Some would call this a ‘police state mentality,’ and frankly I find it deeply disturbing.
I still love you lifewithaporpoise, and while staying in your lovely land, it most definitely is a much, much different culture than life over here in the U.S. And I would love to visit Australia again if given the opportunity.
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@ Katy.
It’s fine if she’s from another country (I used to have Aussie pen pals when I was a teen, who were lovely people), but it was lifewithporpoise’s attitude towards me that I did not care for, and I get the impression she intentionally goes out of her way to “needle” myself and other readers here, and over topics we may find sensitive.
She was already told once above by another commentator that her comments were coming across hurtful to that person.
That, and the other thing that set me off is that lifewithporpoise seemed to be attributing views to me that I went out of my way on page 1 of this thread to say I do not hold!
I also think she is conflating issues, which is confusing things for me and maybe other readers.
I have also had a run-in with lifewithporpoise on a previous thread or two (over anther subject, if I recall correctly).
After reading this comment by her, I have have next to no, or no, sympathy for her, as she does not want to extend it to others
(please bear in mind, I never said women who are mothers, or who don’t get degrees, are idiots, which she is implying here, or so it reads to me):
by lifewithporpoise:
It does not bother me if other women want to make a choice to marry and have kids and stay out of college..
Or if they want to learn to sew and cook (though I question the motive: if you think cooking and sewing will necessarily land you a husband, good luck with that).
My issue with people like lifewithporpoise is that they feel the only suitable way for a woman to live life is on their terms
(in her case, it would be avoiding college, marrying young, and having children – which is a stereotypical 1950s American way of viewing women and women’s purpose, which American gender complemetnarians of today insist is the only “biblical” and proper way for women to live).
lifewithporpoise definitely gives that vibe off in her comments. Maybe she doesn’t feel that way, but that view seems to permeate some of her posts.
It’s the same attitude I grew up with – I was brought up in a gender complementarian family, where I was pressured to think by the church and my parents to feel my only role in life was to marry and have children. Marriage never worked out for me (I broke up with my fiance), so I remain single.
I am concerned for and about women who naively walk into marriage, avoiding college, and/or having children, that they do so because their parents, society, or their religious tradition pressures them into doing so and/or does not present other alternatives for a woman.
I see American gender comps pressuring young women today to go this route. Women are not presented with other ideas of what they can be in life, they are given only this one, very narrow option by American Christian comps.
The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 7 it is better to remain single.
But do you ever hear American gender complementarians advocating that women choose to be single (that it’s another option for them), or to feel okay about being single, if they find themselves single against their plans and hopes?
I sure have not. And I was brought up in gender comp churches, constantly exposed to their teachings.
Out of the complementarians who have noticed that more and more women are not marrying these days, what they do is shame, pressure, and scold women under the age of 30 or 25 to marry right away.
Complementarians don’t present these women with the idea that it’s okay to stay single for life, or into their 30s and older.
Southern Baptist Al Mohler (who is a gender comp) has posted, in glee, I may add, posts on his blog in the past noting studies that say that adult singles supposedly die sooner than married people (such studies are not accurate, by the way).
Mohler really goes out of his way to make singleness look miserable in his blog posts and a few radio shows or conferences he went to, and he tells singles on his blog that marriage is the cure, basically – that is a totally unbiblical view. It has zero biblical support.
Mohler and gender comps like this do this to scare women into marrying and marrying young. It’s disgusting, and again, it goes against 1 Cor. 7, and they seem to forget that their founder, Jesus Christ, was single and childless.
Wanting to get married and being married is fine and dandy. I have no opposition to people wanting marriage or being married. I’m still hoping to marry eventually myself.
But while I am single, I don’t appreciate how so many Christians shame singles for being single, or ignore our needs to focus on marriage and the nuclear family, as they tend to do.
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@ Sarah
You’re welcome. 🙂 There was probably more I could have said, and I could have said it better, but it was late last night when I typed those posts, and I was getting pretty sleepy.
I kind of have some stuff going on in my personal life right now that has my anxiety levels going up and down, so this isn’t a great time for me.
I know what it’s like to feel devalued or put down merely for being single or childless, or not fulfilling some other life script or milestone in life, that conservative Christians or the culture says you must meet to be considered normal or a winner.
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Daisy,
I do hear the cry of your heart and am actually in total agreement with what you believe and the Biblical support you quote thereof. My experiences in the last abusive church system was that of the Baptist denomination with a charismatic/Pentecostal Assembly of God (with his paper degree) pastor man, which was actually more of a cult playing the role of god in our lives with the mind games, manipulation and control tactics in misusing the Holy Scriptures for their own gain. So I do empathize with your situation here and to be perfectly honest in the public forum, since becoming a part of the Body of Jesus Christ here on this site, you have been more than honest and respectful in addressing the issues as presented by Julie Anne.
And yes, the Bible does discuss the topic of revilers as having no place in His Kingdom, always disagreeing and always ‘sticking up for the other guy’ in trying to destroy your reality and ‘nitpicking’ at your soul. It is indeed, a tactic used by satan that I am very much familiar with as the pastor, church board, deacons and deaconesses of ill repute, used very well to abuse those who would not worship them or live as they were told by their standards, not God’s obedience. The false teachers, false prophets and prophetesses LOVE to speak words of wisdom, their own vain words of course, to lead you in the direction of their own making. Something as simple as going out and buying garden seed and flowers from their ‘labeled’ secular greenhouse now became a “sin” and I was strongly encouraged to support the locally proclaimed “christian woman (?)” who homeschooled her children and had a lazy husband (according to the deaconess gossip). Oh, how I dislike being manipulated with such mundane things as these, especially in light of the fact that there several amazing believers who treat me with such love and respect at the greenhouse that I have been supporting for years and years.
And concerning Albert Mohler, why in the world is the evangelical world listening to another preacher man who loves the sound of his own voice rather than reading and studying the Scriptures for ourselves. Does the phrase “another human idol” resonate with the visible church?
And you are also correct concerning the issue of the single Christian with regards to church systems. The programs and extra special perks are focused primarily on married couples and their children, with little fellowship for singles who are born again. My children are finding this out the hard way in our smaller communities. Fellowship here in our neck of the woods is evangelicals meeting at the bar, getting drunk and then it gets pretty ugly from there.
I remember Oasis on this site and the utterly disrespectful way in which she was castigated. It was a shame and I cried for her for I believe she was thrown under the bus by those who proclaim themselves as followers of Jesus. How can this be?
Prayers are still said for her precious soul.
I love you Daisy and want to encourage you in your faith in Jesus, as well as speaking truth from your heart. I, for one, am learning so much from you in relating it to my life and how I should treat others in pointing them to Christ.
Our LORD is with you.
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Best to you, Daisy. I’ve been having a rough week myself.
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LifeWithPorpoise,
My grandmother and her sister got university educations in the 1920s at a famous American university. Their father was from Scotland and university educated.
My grandmother and great-aunt both got university degrees in the hard sciences. They both also knew the domestic arts – cooking, sewing, canning, music.
My grandmother was asked to teach college classes on Geometry to men going off to war so they could fly their planes.
My great-aunt got her university degree in Physics. She also did research, teaching, and she and her husband had a farm and a family.
They helped countless people better their lives in higher education, by first bettering their own. The power of higher education is not to be under-estimated.
I’m glad that your life worked out, and your job, without a higher education. But times are changing and many jobs require a higher education.
As to your friend with a law degree who would like marriage and children, has she considered adopting children?
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Katy APRIL 15, 2016 @ 9:03 AM “I remember Oasis on this site and the utterly disrespectful way in which she was castigated. It was a shame and I cried for her for I believe she was thrown under the bus by those who proclaim themselves as followers of Jesus. How can this be?
Prayers are still said for her precious soul.”
Hi Katy,
Gail here, you are a gem to remember what happened to Oasis. I am in contact with her & I know the damage that was done to her, it is heartbreaking. I shared with her what you wrote and she gave me permission to respond to you. The timing of your comment has the Holy Spirit written all over it. Love your heart, kindness and wisdom, you nail the self-serving celebrities. Our best to you.
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“Gail here, you are a gem to remember what happened to Oasis. I am in contact with her & I know the damage that was done to her, it is heartbreaking. I shared with her what you wrote and she gave me permission to respond to you. The timing of your comment has the Holy Spirit written all over it. Love your heart, kindness and wisdom, you nail the self-serving celebrities. Our best to you.”
Give her my love next time you converse. I think of her often.
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“But she’s desperate to marry and has been taught by society that basic domestic skills are not necessary.”
My older brothers were doing laundry, house chores and cooking for themselves when they were 10. Same with me. When it came to responsibility and opportunity, we were all raised the same. Both my grandmother’s were college educated along with one ggrand. It was not a question of if college but where. One of them came from a poor family, her mom died when she was 9. But her dad insisted she go. I paid my way with 3 jobs. I don’t know how I did it.
Some men appreciate educated independent women. Poor Women with children have always worked so that ‘stay at home with your kids’ thing is a modern Western civilization result of a middle class.. Black women with little ones picked cotton all day.
It just not all black and white. I don’t think anyone should put you down for your choices either. Chances are your lawyer friend would be in the same predicament without a law degree. College is where many meet their future mates. That and work, ironically. However, have you seen the latest stats on singles in this country? It is higher than ever before. Include single because of divorce and it surpassed marrieds.
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Thanks Lydia,
I will pass along your comment, I’m sure that will mean a lot to her.
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Hello gm370 and Oasis,
You are very kind, for truth be told, I don’t consider myself to be very wise and my words aren’t that of a slick debater, but do appreciate the valuable life lessons that I am learning from this site.
Your friendship with Oasis reminded me of these verses overflowing with love;
“Greater love has no man than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.” John 15:13
“By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” 1 John 3:16 (this can only be God, the Holy Spirit living and working here for this verse resembles John 3:16……so wonderful!)
gm, Praise be to God, that you are still loving and encouraging Oasis, for true friends are there for one another through thick and thin. I love and respect the fact that you have a heart for those who have been wronged. It is a genuine testimony to your faith in Christ as well as following what God commands us to do. And you will be rewarded for your faithfulness as will Oasis. The Christian culture is desperately in need of more like you.
Lydia, so thankful others are thinking and praying in the Spirit for a precious one who has been so wronged by a people who ‘know it all,’ yet are lacking where the fruits of God’s Spirit are concerned.
I just can’t help singing and dancing (in my dirt field surrounded by rocks-an open invitation to all to come and help me pick, smile!) to these words,
“Where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is freedom…….”
I love the amazing people on this site, for the real life stories here and the working of God’s redemption in our lives is a testimony to the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. And gm370, please share with Oasis that she is so loved…..by many of us…..and most, most, most importantly, by our King, Jesus.
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Katy,
Just sent her a e-mail, your words will touch her beautiful heart. She is so full of love. I can’t imagine not having her in my life, plus, she helped me out unpacking all that comp garbage. I’m not the brightest, all their words, words, words and doctrines confuse this 61 yr. old granny. Found this song this morning over at TWW, a much needed tune in light of the nasty T4G2016 business. God Bless your generous heart.
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gm370,
Oh Praise our LORD Jesus Christ for God, the Holy Spirit is truly moving and working amongst His people! Glory Alleluia!
This song, “My Deliverer” is my most favorite Christian song for many years, other than the Psalms. How did you know this? Oh, thank-you dear sister, for this moving reminder of Jesus’ love.
God Bless you, gm370…..God Bless You!
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Love that! God is adorable.
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I’m a native of Louisville. I have only recently come to realize the Southern Baptist institution is in my city! They are so insulated & separate that the majority of Louisville folks have no clue about them so this blows me away that my city is their hub. Anyway, I began attending a church that did not have Baptist in the name to attract folks who wouldn’t feel comfortable in a Southern Baptist church. After 6 years of watching and trying to be accepted into the authoritarian, caste-like Baptist society, we finally left to return to the sinful commoners of louisville. There is nothing Biblical about how they operate but I don’t have a SB seminary degree so you can disregard anything I say, I’m not worthy to offer comment.
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Kmsmith. Unfortunately, this is not just SB, but representative of the greater evangelical world. I grew up in a caste system church as well. Women, Men, Deacons, Elders, Pastors. The only way people would listen to you was if you were an elder or pastor, or someone who was on that track. I was on that track and got affirmation for awhile, but at some point I was too old to be on the track and suddenly the hearing and affirmation I had received earlier was replaced with skepticism and rejection. I wasn’t different, but my place in the caste system had changed.
I think this is a blatant rejection of Biblical leadership. The very word translated “elder” means just that. Old guy. It seems completely wrong to think that a 25-year-old seminary graduate with a wife and a 2-year-old is a spiritual “old guy”, yet a 50-60 year old man who has maintained a stable life, raised godly kids and is well-known to the church doesn’t have any worth, except to back up the seminary graduate’s ludicrous ideas of parenting, and keep the tithe check coming.
In my first cross-cultural small group. I was astonished at the amount of wisdom these “spiritual has beens” had. Yet, it seems like the church pushes those wise people to the side in favor of the next generation of immature, power-hungry college grads (I was one of those once).
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The idea of ‘aging out’ of the elder track is mind boggling!
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Agreed, but there has to be something behind it. For example, my old (Reformed) church has yearly conferences. There is a lot of pressure on late high schoolers to commit to serve the church, and there is somewhat of a golden opportunity window around that age. So, the idea is that these juniors and seniors make a commitment, after a “consecration service” (i.e. fire and brimstone to all who don’t give themselves entirely to God TODAY) then their mentors/sessions guide them towards pastoral study or at least a Reformed college.
There is a smallish window after college graduation as well, for people who have apparent gifts, but aren’t as interested in being pastors.
So, it seems like the ministerial energy of the church is focused on ages 16-25. So, I caught the tail end of that graduating from college, but then I went to graduate school from 26-28 and when I was done, I was too old to have my theological ideas beaten out of me, so instead, they made sure that I wasn’t going to go anywhere.
Once you’re a “known quantity” and older than about 25, then there is no point in putting you in leadership, because if you were leadership material, you would already have been identified. If you come from the outside, there is hope, even for older people, so yes, I have seen guys in their 40’s and 50’s get elected, but typically they’ve only been at the church for a few years.
Part of this is the Evangelical church’s idea of eldership. It is charisma, knowledge and energy – more like ability to stare down and outrun sheep, than to guide them. So, they can take someone who is 22 years old and energetic, put him through seminary and now he is a 26-year-old energetic piece of elder material. Weirdly, I’ve always been drawn towards wisdom and experience, but that is not what the church seems to look for.
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“After 6 years of watching and trying to be accepted into the authoritarian, caste-like Baptist society, we finally left to return to the sinful commoners of louisville. There is nothing Biblical about how they operate…” – kmsmith
The spread of NeoCalvinism, and Patriarchy, was planned by the Southern Baptists. First they planned to take over the seminaries, and succeeded. Then they planned to take over churches and succeeded. Southern Baptists lost a whopping 200,000 living members last year, as people are fed up with the authoritarianism and Patriarchy teachings and leaving. Southern Baptists also have the highest divorce rate in the nation, higher than atheists (Barna study), at time when the nation’s divorce rate has been declining. Southern Baptists’ divorce rate is even higher than atheists.
I was in a fairly new church that was started by a NeoCalvinist John MacArthur Master’s Seminary graduate and his friends. It was one of the most abusive, toxic churches, complete with excommunications and shunnings of anyone who had a thought, questioned anything. The pastors/elders even excommunicated a personal, long-time friend of Pastor John MacArthur’s, a godly doctor in his 70s (faithful, loving husband for about 45+ years, loving father to grown children, thoughtful, well-read, generous with his time and money to the church). I refer to it as Salem Witch Trials II.
You’re correct. These churches aren’t Biblical. They teach heresy (Eternal (a lie) Subordination of the Son to justify Patriarchy/Comp teachings) and on and on.
I regret I ever gave them any money. I wish I, and others, could ask for a full refund.
They wouldn’t be able to survive if people closed their wallets and stop funding these nonsense.
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Well, one of the tweets is almost true, put another way. Men are seeing themselves as spiritual leaders, and women are dying.
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So, I just had the opportunity to walk through a rather large and busy casino. Please note that I said “walk through.” It set me to wondering why, if ours is a deterministic god who arbitrarily grants Grace to some to exercise patriarchal and ecclesiastical Authority over wives, children and congregants, why should I look down on those who are but granting Him the opportunity to, in His Providence, make them wealthy?
But then the real lesson hit me. I posit that the people patronizing this casino this Lord’s day have just as great a probability of finding the true Jesus on the casino floor as do the multiple thousands who are this same day investing their (unscriptural) tithes in in support of some self-gratifying, authority-of-patriarchy preaching “pastor’s” vision (all in-the-name-of-Jesus and in the interests of the Glory of god, of course).
I would go so far as to say that it is more likely that Jesus walks casino floors than that he regularly bestows his approving presence on the typical mega “church” performance–er, I mean service. If nothing else, I rather fancy that Jesus was sitting right next to a woman I saw feeding a slot machine early one morning about this time last year–a woman I’m thinking had been spent the previous night in her pursuit and whose visage–nay, her very being–projected what could only be described as utter, irremediable despair.
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I think you may be onto something. I think of Jesus knocking at the doors of all hearts, regardless of where the body happens to be at the moment.
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Lifewithporpoise seems to imagine young men interview prospective brides about their housekeeping skills and cooking. At Indiana Wesleyan University everybody (but me) married before or just after graduating. Guys didn’t know anything about their future brides’ home making skills. Cute, flirtatious blondes were all the rage.
I know single women with great housekeeping skills who can cook and sew like nobody’s business and live alone in one bedroom apartments. No man gives a rip about that kind of stuff anymore. Maybe they should, but marrying before 21 does not always lead to great choices.
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