JD Hall and his Bully Behavior on Twitter
It seems Jordan (JD) Hall is showing his true colors today.
He got all worked up after someone appropriately gave him some corrective criticism. Apparently, from the Twitter conversation that I read, JD Hall did not clearly cite an author’s works on his recent blog article . . or at least it was not clear to all. Even someone on JD Hall’s Facebook page responded directly to Hall as if he wrote the article. You can click on the link and see that he did not correct this woman’s wrong conclusion.
***
I don’t get the beef. I have no problem whatsoever when people send me a note telling me about a typo or citation error, etc. It doesn’t offend me in the least. But JD Hall showed no grace in his response to his critic. He showed anger and rudeness. There was nothing pastoral in his response. He interpreted the suggestion as an attack and responded with Twitter cannons.
Oh . . . . but there’s one thing I left out. The person who corrected JD hall was . . . .
:::::::gasp:::::::
A W.O.M.A.N.
It would be one thing for a man to correct him, . . . but a woman? Oh my, my, my!
Have a look at the tweets that set him off. Put on your seat belt. They are sooooooooo mean and threatening to his personhood:
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It appears from the wording that the top two tweets are not even talking directly to Hall, even though he is tagged (@PulpitAndPen is his Twitter handle). I’m pretty sure the last tweet is directed to @CalvinistJohn, because his Twitter handle is first in the tweet. So, if I’m interpreting the tweets correctly, JD Hall was only tagged in these. Lisa did not tweet directly to Hall.
I noticed on Lisa’s Twitter profile that she’s an editor. So, of course she would take special notice of something important like a citation.
Remember, this is JD Hall who had a conference in his home state of Montana with the likes of Phil Johnson, Voddie Baucham, Paul Washer, etc. Here was the lineup from last summer’s conference:
In the following tweet, once again, Lisa is responding to @CalvinistJohn. I have yet to find one tweet where Lisa is in direct conversation with Hall (evidently @CalvinistJohn tagged Hall in his original tweet, so if you reply to the tweet, it retains all the people tagged unless you physically delete the names).
JD Hall jumps in on the conversation here:
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/674620286059220993
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Now Lisa Cooper’s husband, Jordan, who happens to be a pastor, chimes in the conversation to defend his wife. (Jordan, good for you!)
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/674623123275145217
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/674623344969314304
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Here, Jordan is responding to @GSethDunn, and JD Hall responds back to Jordan.
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/674631082914877440
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JD Hall believes that a husband should rule over wives. He is publicly rebuking a pastor for not controlling his wife’s behavior. Isn’t it interesting that JD Hall is going after this woman and her behavior and she did NOTHING wrong, yet who is the one with the behavioral issues?
Projection, people.
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/674631509404332032
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Ceaseless berating? That is more projection, folks:
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions.Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. Source
If anyone is a ceaseless berator (I made up that word), it would be JD Hall. Just ask Ergun Caner. You can’t ask Ergun Caner’s son, Braxton, he’s dead. JD Hall tweeted a few times to Braxton in a condescending fashion, which then brought a group of tweeters who ganged up on Braxton. Braxton clearly indicated he was done, but men continued hounding him about his lifestyle as a teenager, the way his girlfriend dressed, etc. Within weeks of this Twitter incident, Braxton committed suicide.
Back to Lisa, Jordan and JD Hall, if you’d like to skim through tweets for yourself, here are JD Hall’s recent conversations. Here are Lisa’s recent Twitter conversations. You can see if I missed any tweets directed to JD.
Is there a reason why I posted the photo of the Reformation Montana conference? You bet. It is commonly known that JD Hall behaves like a bully on Twitter, yet those public Christian leaders don’t seem to have a problem associating with him and speaking at his events.
JD Hall is pastor of an independent church with no one over him. (The elders whom he claimed were going to hold him accountable after the last public fiasco on Twitter have obviously failed.) These men, if they cared about Christ’s reputation, would have nothing to do with JD Hall. Remaining silent is being complicit.
JD Hall needs to knock it off, and those who claim to be Christian leaders need to put their big boy pants on, give up the Montana Reformation conference, and stop patting their bro on the back, for Christ’s sake.
Good grief. Enough already!
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Dustin,
Thanks for responding to me.
I think that depends on the person being insulted.
As far as David Miscavige is concerned: If even a tenth of the accusations made against him are true, he deserves every bit of contempt that he gets from his critics. On Tony’s blog, I’ve even joined in on the insults on occasion. He’s a nasty, horrid human being who has no business leading or being in charge of anything, let alone the hearts and minds of thousands of people. If he would just step down and fess up, the insults might stop.
As for Hall: While he hasn’t done anything even remotely as bad as Miscavige likely has, I fear that his attitude is not so different. And according to JA, he’s not backing down from his latest and most disgusting behaviour. Hall is rapidly approaching the realm of deserving whatever he gets. If he really wants non-Christians to say nicer things about him, then he needs to clean up his act.
Seriously, when the people of Nineveh and the Queen of Sheba rise up at the day of judgement and condemn the leaders of Jesus’ generation, do you think they’re going to use nice, sweet and sanitized words to do it? Why should we expect differently from those outside the faith, when they condemn “Christians” whose behaviour falls below the standards that non-Christians acknowledge as good and right?
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“Dustin, it is interesting that you believe that “extreme fallible” men can be pastors but no women, no matter how learned, wise, and gifted they might be.”
Haha, i don’t find my view to be particularly interesting, though I do find it to be consistent and coherent.
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“Dustin
Thanks for engaging and trying to answer the many questions.
I do have a challenge with understanding…
And believing, this answer you gave…
When I asked you…
Do you, Dustin, also agree with this about JD?
“He should NOT be a pastor?”
You began your answer with…
“I don’t know enough about JD
to know how he functions as a pastor
and the role he has in his church
and how that all works out.
I think people, even extremely fallible ones, can be pastors.”
====== Tears ====== 😦 😦 😦
I ask you to reconsider your last line, extremely fallible ones.
For me, that is a major cause of “Abuse,” extremely fallible pastors.
And, I’ve met way too many of, extremely fallible pastors. 😦
And – Is that what “the Bible” says?
extremely fallible believers can be pastors?
Doesn’t that sound dangerous to you?
Is that what the Qualifications for “elder/overseer” says?
If I remember, understand, correctly… Both you and JD Hall would say…
“the Bible is the Infallible Word of God?” Yes?
Why, now, is the Bible NOT “your” standard?
Why, now, don’t you “know enough about JD?”
Why, now, don’t you “know enough how he functions as a pastor?”
To answer? From the scriptures? And NOT what “you” think?
You do know enough about the Qualifications, and JD Hall,
To know if he Qualifies according to the Infallible Word of God?” Yes?
So, let me ask the question this way…
Do you, Dustin, also agree with this about JD?
“He should NOT be a pastor?”
According to the Qualifications in the Infallible Word of God?
According to the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9?”
Amos, you have a very interesting way of writing our your thoughts, hah, but let me see i can be more thorough here. i suppose it would have to come down to what sort of frailties and sins were are talking about with any pastor, and not jus Jordan specifically. I know that for myself, I am a very fallible and poor christian often, and yet my sins and misgivings do not disqualify me from being loved by God. That’s why I spoke to compartmentalization.
I think there has to be some room for pastors to have holiness issues that need to be worked out. I get that we’re all messy people, and I don’t expect that my elders will always get things right, or behave as they ought, so there needs to be some grace there- but as always, that depends on what it is.
But you’re also right that I probably hedged a little too much. I think that someone can be a “good pastor” to all intents and purposes to his flock- caring for their souls, feeding them, counselling them, loving them, etc, and yet have very real issues which may or may not disqualify him, which I suppose would ultimately make them a bad pastor, even if that never manifests itself in a practical way. This is a question that I have not fully sorted out yet. If JD treated his flock like he does other people on social media, then I would say that he ought not to be a pastor, as that would disqualifying. But that’s why I said I don’t know much about how he treats them, and what bleeds into his daily interactions.
But I think, as you pointed out, the division between online and IRL may be too artificial, as even though its not public to his flock, it is still public to everyone else, and more importantly- to God. So yes, I think there is absolutely a case to be made that JD should not be pastor, even if he was the bees knees to his flock. I would base this at this point in his life, as failing to be all these things:
blameless, having a good testimony among those who are outside, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, and gentle, and instead, being actively quarrelsome.
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“Oh me oh my, that Ergun Caner story.
I don’t agree with Caner’s deceptions (he lied about being Muslim or something or other, according to sites I read long ago), – however:
J D Hall buddies are oddly obsessed with Caner the way 15 year old girls are obsessed with Justin Bieber or One Direction.
The absolute, unrelenting hatred, obsession with, Caner and bringing Caner down is very unseemly and weird. The Caner detractors end up looking worse than Caner.”
That’s not the only issue- the problems are manifest and ongoing, including bullying acts which everyone here would decry as abusive and spiritually bankrupt
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“Marsha said,
Dustin, it is interesting that you believe that “extreme fallible” men can be pastors but no women, no matter how learned, wise, and gifted they might be.
Excellent point, Marsha.
There is something very odd about gender complementarians that they will defend dirt ball men, and/or men who are obviously not qualified to be preachers being preachers, but won’t allow for even the best of women to be preachers.”
I don’t think people should defend dirt-ball me or men who are obviously not qualified to be preachers.
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When I see the above comments on elder/pastor stuff my mind immediately floats to another place and I start thinking of donuts. (Homer Simpson style deviation)
My brain doesn’t want to grapple with the ‘is he qualified to be a professionalised full time salaried to serve capital P pastor conversation’
-there is nothing-
just beautiful visions of donuts.
(iced ones). 😀
When I think of all the aggressive, tyrannical men who like to call themselves capital P pastors and wear suits to ‘church’ in the middle of summer and carry on like school yard bullies (and keyboard warriors)…
I don’t even need to ask the, “Are they REALLY qualified to be a pastor”.
It’s an irrelevant conversation.
From personal experience…
The believers in Jesus who truly are GIFTED with being pastoral and providing oversight are the ones usually off the internet not arguing about Calvinism and joining in with other bullies at ‘LEADERSHIP’ conferences where they all chest bump each other in all their supposed godliness (theological knowledge poo poo).
No.
The real pastors: They’re the ones hugging the dirty homeless woman at the shelter down the road and/or weeping with the prostitute. (and they don’t wear the ‘title’ of capital P pastor).
They simply ARE pastors.
My goodness I completely understand why Jesus got so angry at the Pharisees.
I feel the exact same about Christendom right now.
I need a donut.
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lifewithporpoise, Make mine a double chocolate. I like your comment. Praise God for those men and WOMEN who spend their time with the homeless, prostitutes and anyone else in need. They are meeting Jesus with those he went after.
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Wow. Just….wow.
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lifewithporpoise
Yes – Yes – Yes…
“The real pastors: They’re the ones hugging the dirty homeless woman
at the shelter down the road and/or weeping with the prostitute.
(and they don’t wear the ‘title’ of capital P pastor).
They simply ARE pastors.”
Yeah, go figure…
NOT one of His Disciples ever had, or needed, The Title pastor.
But, there might be one small spelling correction. You write…
“I feel the exact same about Christendom right now.”
I think that’s spelled Christiandumb
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“If you don’t want your wife rebuked on Twitter for ceaseless berating, control her behavior like a husband should. Untag me.”
What I find absurd is that THREE people actually “liked” this comment and one person actually RT’d it. (As shown in the photo)
Whoever those four are, it’s a safe bet to stay away from them too.
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I like your comment too lifewithporpoise. Meeting people where they are and showing them unconditional love. That’s the kind of love only Jesus can give us for others and can change situations and soften hearts. Love donuts too, but I’m trying to lay off the donuts for now 🙂
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Monique,
Did Jesus meet the Pharisees and temple leaders where they are and show them unconditional love?
Are his words of woe to many ‘unconditional love’?
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Dustin
Thanks again for your response…
And, you might NOT realize it, but, you do this a lot, obfuscate.
“But you’re also right that I probably hedged a little too much.”
hedged? hedged? AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!
When you write…
“I think people, even extremely fallible ones, can be pastors.”
That’s NOT, “I probably hedged a little too much.”
To Hedge – “avoid making a definite decision, statement, or commitment.”
That’s just plain wrong. Biblically, and every other way. 😦
Don’t you care, even a little, about what the Bible says about elders?
Why make so many excuses for these pastors who mess up?
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Dustin
But, there might be some hope for you. 😉
You come close here to, “making, a definite decision.”
NOT quite, but close… 😉
“So yes, I think there is absolutely “a case to be made”
that JD should NOT be pastor…
I would base this at this point in his life, as failing to be all these things:
blameless, having a good testimony among those who are outside,
temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, and gentle,
and instead, being actively quarrelsome.”
a case to be made? a case to be made? AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!
Simple… Answer… Try it… You’ll like it…
Do you, Amos, also agree with this about JD?
“He should NOT be a pastor?”
Yes, I agree, JD Hall does NOT qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer. According to the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9. According to the Emily Post book of proper Etiquette and Manners. 😉
And, JD Hall should remove him self from…
The Title/Postion, shepherd/leader/reverend…
And be a good example to the flock.
His Elders should man-up and stop paying him…
That’s what happens in the real world…
When you do NOT Qualify…
And you do a lousy job…
You are fired…
Now you try it Dustin. With-out the “hedge.”
Do you, Dustin, also agree with this about JD?
“He should NOT be a pastor?”
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“Dustin
Thanks again for your response…
And, you might NOT realize it, but, you do this a lot, obfuscate.
“But you’re also right that I probably hedged a little too much.”
hedged? hedged? AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!
When you write…
“I think people, even extremely fallible ones, can be pastors.”
That’s NOT, “I probably hedged a little too much.”
To Hedge – “avoid making a definite decision, statement, or commitment.”
That’s just plain wrong. Biblically, and every other way. 😦
Don’t you care, even a little, about what the Bible says about elders?
Why make so many excuses for these pastors who mess up?”
I was using the definition “limit or qualify (something) by conditions or exceptions.”
But the fact is that falliable people can be pastors, depending on what their sins and issues are. i look at someone like Calvin or Luther, and there are big issues there- but are they enough to disqualify from the pastorate? That’s what I’m working through. And of course some fallible people should not be pastors, again depending on their sins. And so I don’t think I obfuscate at all, actually, but rather try to be careful and precise. And yes, I care very much what the scriptures say about elders. And I don’t think I make excuses for pastors who mess up. I’m not afraid to call a sin a sin. Its the ramifications of those sins that I’m concerned about. We don’t have too much clarity on the qualifications, and so there is always be a bit of subjectivity involved. for example- contentious. well how contentious does one have to be before they are necessarily disqualified? and what might be contentious to some is not to others. That being said, I’m not saying I have the right answer in all this. My lines may have gotten blurred and wrong. That’s why I engage in discussions like this, with people who don’t agree with me on many things, because If I’m wrong, it doesn’t matter if the rebuke comes from friend or foe, I want to know about it and work through it.
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Still Reforming,
My response was in the context of responding/ministering to a hurting/struggling person, possibly facing a faith crisis or any difficult challenge. I believe the best response is to love them right in that situation without putting any conditions on the love God has for them.
You ask,
“Are his words of woe to many ‘unconditional love’?”
I guess I’m wondering what “woe’s” you’re referring to. If you’re referring to Matt. 23, as far as I can tell, all his words of woe were directed at the Pharisee’s, not hurting/marginalized people.
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Excellent comment, Monique – the whole thing.
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Sorry, Monique. I misunderstood you.
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No problem 🙂 Maybe time for a donut?
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Absolutely! Please allow me to pay for yours. 🙂
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Donuts on me 😝 (I want the blessing)
This just reminded me of a couple I know in their seventies.
They did their rounds in religion. Their kids have rejected the Gospel (I suspect they were fed the Gothard gospel).
They always get kicked out of churches for collected the wounded folk and showing them the right way.
He was invited to preach a couple years ago when capital P pastor was out of town.
The text?
Matthew 23.
There are no words.
Brave man.
A pastor… Without the title and salary.
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Yet another example of the depth and thought involved in 140 characters texted off your Smartphone (“I Made a Poopie! txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt…)
Why do you think they call them “Twits”?
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Dustin
You write…
“But the fact is that fallible people can be pastors…”
“And yes, I care very much what the scriptures say about elders.”
From the Scriptures…
Can you name one Elder, or one of His Disciples, or one Fallible people…
Who called them self pastor, Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
From the Scriptures…
Can you name one elder, one of His Disciples, or one Fallible people…
Who had, or needed, the “Title/Position” pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader?
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Elder is an adjective in the NT is it not?
I would like you to all start calling me Younger Porpoise from now on please.
It makes me feel goood.
(probably how it makes the Elders feel)
Reminds me of that gorgeous verse:
“They love people to call them “Elder, Elder in the marketplace”.
said our Blessed you know who.
Today’s ‘Church’ reminds me of going to a costume party gone horribly wrong. Or a dungeons and dragons role play date.
Everyone wants to be the Apostle Paul.
No one wants to be Jesus (he was the servant).
Ok. Coffee time.
I’ve said too much already, for a woman.
Thank God my husband doesn’t use Twitter.
(He’s busy working. You know… willingly. With his HANDS)
BOOM!
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I recently met yet another couple from our past, with kids who have walked away from the faith, even though they did all the things they were advised to do by people like Doug Phillips and Voddie Baucham and the other speakers favored by our state homeschooling conferences. sigh
As the wife said, in parting, God doesn’t seem to favor formulas.
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You know, reading JD’s disrespectful, rude comments over again, he comes across as a brat in need of a good spanking.
And I don’t normally believe in corporal punishment.
Go figure.
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i also don’t believe in spanking/corporal punishment
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You write…
“But the fact is that fallible people can be pastors…”
“And yes, I care very much what the scriptures say about elders.”
From the Scriptures…
Can you name one Elder, or one of His Disciples, or one Fallible people…
Who called them self pastor, Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
From the Scriptures…
Can you name one elder, one of His Disciples, or one Fallible people…
Who had, or needed, the “Title/Position” pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader?
In the scriptures, the terms overseer/bishop/shepherd are used generally interchangeably, with “pastor” simply being the Latin word for “shepherd”. when i use the word “pastor” i am referring to an elder that shepherds a flock, and i use it in a very informal sense. if you’re asking me if i believe there is an “office” of eldership? No. But elders are necessarily shepherds, which are pastors.
So even though i would probably agree with you that we see no example of people taking the title of elder or bishop , ie “Bishop Titus” or “Elder Timothy” we do see them functioning in those roles. I don’t see the title as important, and in fact, think it does much in the way of contributing to an artificial clergy/layperson distinction,
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Dustin
I’m glad we’re in agreement… 🙂 When you write…
“I don’t see the title as important, and in fact,
think it does much in the way of contributing
to an artificial clergy/layperson distinction”
I’m glad we’re in agreement… 🙂
From the Scriptures…
I, Amos, can NOT name… And you, Dustin, can NOT name…
One Elder, One of His Disciples, One Fallible people…
Who Called them Self pastor, Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
From the Scriptures…
I, Amos, can NOT name… And you, Dustin, can NOT name…
One Elder, One of His Disciples, One Fallible people…
Who Had the Title pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
All popular Titles, in Today’s Abusive Religious System.
And, today, in the USA, there are over 400,000 Fallible people…
Who Call them Self,* pastor/leader/reverend…
Who **Take the Title, pastor/leader/reverend…
Houston – We have a problem…
Titled pastor/leaders everywhere…
Except in the Bible…
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Dustin
Would you agree again… 😉
Since, in the Bible, NOT one Elder, and NOT one of His Disciples…
Called them Self, pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Had the Title, pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Would you agree? Anyone today?
Who Calls them Self pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Is NOT, a Biblical Elder? Is NOT, a Biblical Disciple?
Is NOT, a Biblical pastor? Is NOT, a Biblical shepherd?
Would you agree? Anyone today?
Who Takes the Title pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Is NOT, a Biblical Elder? Is NOT, a Biblical Disciple?
Is NOT, a Biblical pastor? Is NOT, a Biblical shepherd?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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JD Hall has been given authority its called the 15 sticks of dynamite this was announced via twitter in Dec. of 2014, this twitter announcement came 5 short months after the suicide passing of Braxton Caner which was culmination of a 3-4 year social media war with Braxtons father. The reason for the 15 sticks of dynamite was JD Hall wanted to make a documentary film about apostate(?) Liberty University, and Ergun Caner. I consider one of the great travesty’s of the Church in America will be the hate war against Liberty and Ergun Caner this war was carried out using SEO, SEM, Epurl there were many keywords that organized the movement I mentioned some above others were Semper Reformanda, Soli De Gloria, 5 Pointer. The nature of JD Halls devotion is not to God it is to a man an his money hence JD cannot be reformed his idol is money and power
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No wonder James White had JD Hall on his program, The Dividing Line, earlier this year. They both share in their extreme dislike of Liberty University and Ergun Caner. And of course, they are both 5 Pointers.
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Not sure what you mean when you’re referring to “15 sticks of dynamite”. Also there is no hate-war against Ergun. The man is an unrepentant liar, bully, and has made many choices over the last few years that has resulted in his personal and professional life being in shambles. By way of a disclaimer, I was involved in small part with the Caner Documentary, as well as played a larger part in writing, researching, and documented many of the issues with Caner. Given Ergun’s predilection for behaving badly and continuing to engage in aggressive, abusive and unchristlike behavior, it was necessary to do so. If you want we can discuss specifics, and you can let me know what problems you have with this approach and any specific charges you feel were unfairly made.
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“Dustin
I’m glad we’re in agreement… 🙂 When you write…
“I don’t see the title as important, and in fact,
think it does much in the way of contributing
to an artificial clergy/layperson distinction”
I’m glad we’re in agreement… 🙂
From the Scriptures…
I, Amos, can NOT name… And you, Dustin, can NOT name…
One Elder, One of His Disciples, One Fallible people…
Who Called them Self pastor, Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
From the Scriptures…
I, Amos, can NOT name… And you, Dustin, can NOT name…
One Elder, One of His Disciples, One Fallible people…
Who Had the Title pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
All popular Titles, in Today’s Abusive Religious System.
And, today, in the USA, there are over 400,000 Fallible people…
Who Call them Self,* pastor/leader/reverend…
Who **Take the Title, pastor/leader/reverend…
Houston – We have a problem…
Titled pastor/leaders everywhere…
Except in the Bible…
Would you agree again… 😉
Since, in the Bible, NOT one Elder, and NOT one of His Disciples…
Called them Self, pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Had the Title, pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Would you agree? Anyone today?
Who Calls them Self pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Is NOT, a Biblical Elder? Is NOT, a Biblical Disciple?
Is NOT, a Biblical pastor? Is NOT, a Biblical shepherd?
Would you agree? Anyone today?
Who Takes the Title pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Is NOT, a Biblical Elder? Is NOT, a Biblical Disciple?
Is NOT, a Biblical pastor? Is NOT, a Biblical shepherd?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
No. I don’t find it helpful to make arguments from silence. We don’t have enough information one way or another to make that sort of assessment. I’ve outlined the dangers that can occur when this happens, but these dangers can be mitigated or minimized, and I find some of the terms simply functional as more than anything, rather than something specifically honorific.
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Note that my preferred Church Structure is where a plurality of elders lead, all having equal say to avoid a “first among equals” situation. I’m not a fan of the “senior pastor” title/role, but rather would appeal to an “interdependent leaderships” as being my ideal.
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Something I notice in the modern ‘church’…
Most Elders don’t even meet the definition of the word Elder hahahaha
They’re in their 30s providing ‘wise and godly’ counsel…
to 70 year olds.
HAHAHAHA
Bible role play gone horribly wrong.
I think of Mormon 18 yr olds with their badges, “Elder Jones” and “Elder Smith”.
You can’t help but wonder, “Elder to WHAT?”
Religion really is laughable.
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Darlene,
You wrote: “And of course, they are both 5 Pointers.”
This is my concern these days. I am Reformed, and I don’t think that adherence to the five points (TULIP, what I believe you’re referring to) is the problem so much (that’s just exegesis) as the fact that I’m having difficulty finding someone who exegetes Scripture from a Reformed perspective who is at all humble and compassionate to targets of abuse.
I thought I’d listen to White for a bit since a former pastor gave me one of his books (The Potter’s Freedom) and another subsequent on-line pastor referred to White’s website, so I went there and gave “The Dividing Line” a listen. I didn’t listen to a lot, but it was a bit off-putting – the attitude that came across with the messages. I also didn’t agree with some of his arguments for his stance on how to handle Islamic issues, but that’s beside the point.
So there may be something to a Calvinist connection, but I don’t think that Reformed theology is the root cause of the problems, if in fact this kind of spiritual abuse be widespread among Reformed leaders. Dang, that’s a real frustration. Thankfully there are a few pastors in this community honoring the clarion call to sound the alarms in the church.
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Dustin Germain
December 15, 2015 @ 6:22 PM
Not sure what you mean when you’re referring to “15 sticks of dynamite”. Also there is no hate-war against Ergun. The man is an unrepentant liar, bully, and has made many choices over the last few years that has resulted in his personal and professional life being in shambles. By way of a disclaimer, I was involved in small part with the Caner Documentary, as well as played a larger part in writing, researching, and documented many of the issues with Caner. Given Ergun’s predilection for behaving badly and continuing to engage in aggressive, abusive and unchristlike behavior, it was necessary to do so. If you want we can discuss specifics, and you can let me know what problems you have with this approach and any specific charges you feel were unfairly made.
Dustin asked
Not sure what you mean when you’re referring to “15 sticks of dynamite”.
b replied see link to tweet – RE: 15 sticks of dynamite
Dustin
Are you saying Erguns sin lead to a mob being formed so correction could be administered ?
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Dustin
Yes – we are in agreement again… 😉
You write…
“No. I don’t find it helpful to make arguments from silence.”
Yes – That’s just what “The Abusive Religious System” of today does. 🙂
The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation…
That the IRS calls church.
Yes – That’s just what “abusive pastors” like JD Hall do…
They just make up stuff out of thin air, “from silence.”
They NO longer need, The Bible…
Just like those who take the “Title” pastor “from silence.”
And, “from silence,” become…
Paid, Proffessional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People in Pews.
So, “from silence,”“Falllible people,” create a paid postion, pastor…
And they “assume the postion,” of pastor, in the pulpit, preaching…
Weak, after weak, after weak, after weak…
How important the pastor is…
How important they are…
“From Silence.”
Seems Jesus taught His Disciples there is “ONE” Shepherd.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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“Dustin
Are you saying Erguns sin lead to a mob being formed so correction could be administered ?
Ergun has not repented for his sins, which are pervasive and on-going. For this rerason, any correction and rebukes he receive must be pervasive and on-going. In the same way that people ought rightly to be up in arms about Mark Driscoll starting a new Church, it is not wrong to likewise be up in arms regarding Ergun when he goes on the speaking tour and preaches at Churches.
You’ll have to be more specific and detailed with your understanding of what “mob” has been formed.
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Dustin
Yes – we are in agreement again… 😉
You write…
“No. I don’t find it helpful to make arguments from silence.”
Yes – That’s just what “The Abusive Religious System” of today does. 🙂
The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation…
That the IRS calls church.
Yes – That’s just what “abusive pastors” like JD Hall do…
They just make up stuff out of thin air, “from silence.”
They NO longer need, The Bible…
Just like those who take the “Title” pastor “from silence.”
And, “from silence,” become…
Paid, Proffessional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People in Pews.
So, “from silence,”“Falllible people,” create a paid postion, pastor…
And they “assume the postion,” of pastor, in the pulpit, preaching…
Weak, after weak, after weak, after weak…
How important the pastor is…
How important they are…
“From Silence.”
Seems Jesus taught His Disciples there is “ONE” Shepherd.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
I don’t believe any Church should have advantage of the 501c3, as it naturally limits the truth that ought to be proclaimed there.
And Jesus would be the ultimate leader, yet he has created a Church structure which ought to be led by elders, whom he has appointed to shepherd the flock. I know of very few churches that preach weekly how important the pastor is, and if that were the case, I imagine that I would rebuke them.
My issue is that absent a biblical imperative to do something, people ought not to let others lay sin at their doorstep and try to rob them of their freedoms. Likewise, if a congregation can have a healthy attitude about it,and again- not distort the equality of clergy and laypeople, then I would not rebuke them for choosing to refer to one their shepherds, as a a shepherd. I may have a certain opinions and understandings that make me more comfortable, but I don’t let my personal preferences become pious precepts.
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‘… and again- not distort the equality of clergy and laypeople’.
What on earth is clergy?
Laypeople?
Dustin!
Where on earth do you find clergy and laypeople in the New Testament?
That statement just confirms in my mind that your lot are honestly just a short hop, skip and jump away from your cousins in Rome.
Clergy?? Really??
Do we believe in the same Jesus?
I am sure Amos understands what I am getting at but fear that this is going into one ear and out the other, Dustin.
There is no such thing as clergy and laypersons in the Scriptures. Religion invented it!
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sorry, i may have been unclear. that was a pretty awkward sentence that i wrote. i meant that that the “clergy” and “laypeople” are roles that people put themselves in, and attach a certain hierarchy to it, and they shouldn’t.
i meant to say that all Christians are equal, and it is unhealthy to distort the equality that we all share, by trying to make categories of “clergy” and “laypeople”
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you’ll have to point to something specific i can reflect one, td142
Had to know you’d say that, Dustin, I’ve heard it before from other very much like you..
No, I’m not saying you’re telling blatant lies, as in the black is white and white is black. I am saying that you are heavily invested in one thing here, and you veritably reek of it, and that is making Dustin Germain look good and reasonable and godly–and that is a full blooded lie. You don’t shoot straight, Dustin. I understand that you are young, and thus rather impressionable and foolish, I understand that you have tied yourself to a bunch of ungodly thugs (no, I absolutely do not believe that JD Hall is a believer in anything but himself, as all malignant narcissists and sociopaths are) and thus scarcely can tell your right from your left, so I understand you are at a severe disadvantage, surrounding yourself with liars–hard to know the truth.
But until you’re able to drop the pseudo-righteous persona, until you’re able to stop being invested in typing thing catefully crafted to make yourself look good, until you’re able to flat out shoot straight, you will be, in sum and substance, the worst kind of liar.
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“I understand that you have tied yourself to a bunch of ungodly thugs”
I am no longer affiliated with P and P, nor am I close with them. In fact, JD called me out in a recent article. Also, your post contained many accusations and personal invectives against me, but again, nothing of substance or specific examples I can reflect on.If you are able to provide some, please do, as that would be beneficial to me.
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Dustin
Hmmm? Well? Not agreeing here…
When you write @ DECEMBER 16, 2015 @ 2:48 PM…
1 – “And Jesus would be the ultimate leader,
2 – yet he has created a Church structure
3 – which ought to be led by elders,
4 – whom he has appointed to shepherd the flock.”
1a – Jesus, said, He, Jesus, is “The “ONE” Leader,” For His Disciples.
NOT the ultimate leader. 😉 Think I’ll stick with Jesus on this one.
1b – And Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called Leader.
Wouldn’t this count as “a biblical imperative” to NOT do something?
(“My issue is that absent a biblical imperative to do something…”)
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus, because…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self leader. 🙂
I’m-a-thinkin, today, anyone who calls themself leader…
Is NOT one of His Disciples… Oy Vey!!!
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Dustin
Hmmm? Well? Not agreeing here…
When you write @ DECEMBER 16, 2015 @ 2:48 PM…
1 – “And Jesus would be the ultimate leader,
2 – yet he has created a Church structure
3 – which ought to be led by elders,
4 – whom he has appointed to shepherd the flock.”
2a – Hmmm? “Church structure?” I sure wish, Jesus, in the Bible…
Would have explained this “Church structure” he created. Maybe there would NOT be so many different kinds of “Church structures.” Today there are thousands and thousands of Denominations, Non-Denominations, “Church structure.” Seems the 501 c 3’s, can NOT figure this “Church structure” out.
Which “Church structure” do you suggest for WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia?
Let’s see…. We have
The Orthodox Church,
The Liturgical Church,
The Traditional Church,
The Institutional Church,
The Religious System Church,
The Steeple $ Corporation Church,
The 501(c) 3, non profit, tax deductible,
Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls Church,
The Brick and Mortar Church,
The Pastor Led Church,
The Multiple Elder Led Church,
The Congregational Led Church,
The Pope Led Church,
The Bishop Led Church,
The “Chief Executive Apostle” Led Church,
There really is a Chief Executive Apostle
No Kidding. Saw it with my own eyes. 😉
The Solid Church,
The Fluid Church,
The House Church,
The Simple Church,
The Organic Church,
The Institutional Church,
Oh, I said that one already. 😉
The Small Group Church,
The Denominational Church,
The Non – Denominational Church,
The Inter – Denominational Church,
The Intra – Denominational Church,
The Underground Church,
The Full Gospel Church,
The Mega Church,
The Baptist Church,
The Lutheran Church,
The Evangelical Church,
The Charis maniacle ism Church,
The “Pente” – it’s going to – “cost”- you – “a Lot ism” Church,
And, none of them are working very well. Oy Vey!!! 😦
The Folks, believers, are leaving in droves.
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Dustin
Hmmm? Well? Not sure I can be agreeing wit you here…
When you write @ DECEMBER 16, 2015 @ 2:48 PM…
1 – “And Jesus would be the ultimate leader,
2 – yet he has created a Church structure
3 – which ought to be led by elders,
4 – whom he has appointed to shepherd the flock.”
3a – In the Bible, I can NOT seem to find one church “led” by elders.
Can you? Maybe I missed that…
In the Bible, I can NOT name one of His Disciples “led” by elders.
Can you? Maybe I missed that…
3b – Now I can find, WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church…
His Kings and Priests, His Bride, His Servants, His Ambassadors…
Those born of the Spirit, “ought to be led by” The Spirit. 🙂
John 3:8 NASB
The wind (wind = pneuma = Spirit)
blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it,
but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;
so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 NASB
For all who are being “led” by the Spirit of God,
these are sons of God.
Gal 5:18 NASB
But if you are “led” by the Spirit,
you are not under the Law.
NO thanks – Tried that, “ought to be led by elders” monster. Ouch!!!
Think I’ll stick wit Jesus as, “the “ONE” Leader,” for His Disciples.
Think I’ll stick wit, “being “led” by the Spirit of God.”
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Dustin
Hmmm? Well? Not sure I can be agreeing wit you here…
When you write @ DECEMBER 16, 2015 @ 2:48 PM…
1 – “And Jesus would be the ultimate leader,
2 – yet he has created a Church structure
3 – which ought to be led by elders,
4 – whom he has appointed to shepherd the flock.”
4a – Awww Nuts…
I’m sick and tired of Mere Fallible Humans calling themselves Shepherd.
Telling me how much they love me – Till I dis-agree… AARRRGGGHHH…
Taking the name of the Lord my God in Vain… Ex 20:7
Jesus, called Himself “the Good Shepherd, the “ONE” Shepherd…
And promised NEVER to leave me, nor forsake me…
I’m stickin wit {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} as “The “ONE” Shepherd.”
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Hi Dustin could bench race Justification with you do not have the time, I do appreciated the open forum Julie has created their are a lot of smart people in this group wouldn’t you agree? The tweet below which names the 15 sticks of dynamite if I understand you correctly you do not believe there was a organized mob online before the date of the tweet?
thanks
PS the link may have died by copying if you need to reference the link please scroll up to my previous comment
Dustin asked
Not sure what you mean when you’re referring to “15 sticks of dynamite”.
b replied see link to tweet – RE: 15 sticks of dynamite
Dustin
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Dustin,
I know of very few churches that preach weekly how important the pastor is, and if that were the case, I imagine that I would rebuke them.
They don’t have to. Just standing up in front of everyone, preaching, week after week, is enough to put a stamp of importance on the “teaching elder” or “pastor”. Add to that the idea that the most important function of a worship service is the administration of the Word (i.e. preaching), as I have heard it put forth, and more than once, and… who needs explicit chest-thumping?
Satan himself was said to be subtle. I should imagine his influence in the destruction of the modern church would also be a subtle thing, unrecognized by the ones who are pulling down the church with their own hands, and wounding the lambs.
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Dustin, you said, I may have a certain opinions and understandings that make me more comfortable, but I don’t let my personal preferences become pious precepts.
Please let me say up front, I am not lumping you together with the destructive (although perhaps well-meaning) elders who continue to lead the church we left, but this was one of the placating statements they used, to lull us into complacency.
We weren’t being legalistic, we were simply swayed by, and following personal preferences. Even though I read my bible regularly (not a lot of people do, in fact, women at that church have been known to say they don’t have to read the bible, they just let their husbands explain it to them), after years in that community, I was reading scripture through their lens, and thus not seeing anything wrong with their teaching and practice and “personal preferences”.
Alluding to personal preference makes one sound humble and lowly and slightly holier than the next guy. Have you noticed that? It’s only recently that I’ve been able to see that.
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“Hi Dustin could bench race Justification with you do not have the time, I do appreciated the open forum Julie has created their are a lot of smart people in this group wouldn’t you agree? The tweet below which names the 15 sticks of dynamite if I understand you correctly you do not believe there was a organized mob online before the date of the tweet?
thanks
PS the link may have died by copying if you need to reference the link please scroll up to my previous comment
Dustin asked
Not sure what you mean when you’re referring to “15 sticks of dynamite”.
b replied see link to tweet – RE: 15 sticks of dynamite”
Sorry, i don’t know what this means “”Hi Dustin could bench race Justification with you do not have the time, ” I also agree there are some smart people in this group, yes. As far as the mob thing- again- i was instrumental in growing the 15 and was right in the middle of the action, and in fact many of my posts at the time were pivotal in raisng the ruckus and causing Lifeway, specifically, to pull many books from their collection. I didn’t look at the timeline too closely, but there was no organized mob before stetzer went off and said his thing.
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“Dustin,
I know of very few churches that preach weekly how important the pastor is, and if that were the case, I imagine that I would rebuke them.
They don’t have to. Just standing up in front of everyone, preaching, week after week, is enough to put a stamp of importance on the “teaching elder” or “pastor”. Add to that the idea that the most important function of a worship service is the administration of the Word (i.e. preaching), as I have heard it put forth, and more than once, and… who needs explicit chest-thumping?
Satan himself was said to be subtle. I should imagine his influence in the destruction of the modern church would also be a subtle thing, unrecognized by the ones who are pulling down the church with their own hands, and wounding the lambs.”
I do think having elders and teaching elders are very important. I don’t think the act of preaching to the congregation every week is a bad thing, nor indicative of a deeper problem. and when i said “how important the pastor is” i was referring to elevating specific people, not positions.
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“Dustin, you said, I may have a certain opinions and understandings that make me more comfortable, but I don’t let my personal preferences become pious precepts.
Please let me say up front, I am not lumping you together with the destructive (although perhaps well-meaning) elders who continue to lead the church we left, but this was one of the placating statements they used, to lull us into complacency.
We weren’t being legalistic, we were simply swayed by, and following personal preferences. Even though I read my bible regularly (not a lot of people do, in fact, women at that church have been known to say they don’t have to read the bible, they just let their husbands explain it to them), after years in that community, I was reading scripture through their lens, and thus not seeing anything wrong with their teaching and practice and “personal preferences”.
Alluding to personal preference makes one sound humble and lowly and slightly holier than the next guy. Have you noticed that? It’s only recently that I’ve been able to see that.
Not especially because some stuff i’m still and unyielding and dogmatic about, but very few issues make me rise to the occasion. it’s why I can be cool and supportive of mega churches with 5000 people meeting together and one senior pastor preaching 45 Sundays a week, or likewise 5 families having a home church/microchurch where each week a different person delivers the message. I have preferences, but i’m not going to label what I don’t like to be sinful. \I’m not going to insist that people do it my way, or grow arrogant because I think i have a monopoly on truth regarding secondary, and tertiary issues. I’m rather be chill.
As far as the women telling you that they don’t have to read the bible because their husbands explain it to them- that’s awful and bad kimchi all around.
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Dustin said
Dustin my understanding of the #the15 group it’s members believe they have been marginalized is that correct?
So I have a few more questions because there is no time line available I use the work network to describe the loose gathering that became #the15 at some point
When did you join the loose network, how did you become aware of the network ?
Where you in charge of creating content to attract more members to the group or what was your role in growing the network ?
The tweet I keep asking about which posted to twitter at the same time #the15 organizational document was published that tweet is from a division manager of a very wealthy religious family in the United States ?
That family has many holdings Churches, University’s, publishing, video and technical services, conferences and public speaking. My skepticism here is why would a successful church business family need to call themselves marginalized ?
Purpose of Reformation Montana was that a reward for JD ?
tx Dustin
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JD Hall is a bully. Just last week on Facebook, I did not agree with him calling some women who had committed sexual immorality with Jennings victims. He started making false accusations about me and when I asked him to prove what he said about me and to defend why he called these women victims, he unfriended me. He’s a coward who is incapable of defending himself when confronted so he unfriends to save face….My husband wasn’t too impressed with JD’ either.
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Ctt Marine Christensen,
JD hall is a false teacher and preacher. Stop wasting your time with him and his ilk. And that’s the way they react when they are confronted. Be warned. Glad you told your husband about this spiritual bully and liar. Good on you, and good on you for challenging Hall.
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