Tony Miano, Social Media, Doctrine, Salvation, Spiritual Abuse
Tony Miano is a street preacher who is also a member of John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church. Earlier, he claimed he was going to take a break from social media until the first of the year because of his poor behavior (by the way, the above photo is a screenshot from a YouTube video he posted only 3 days ago):
To be frank: social media has been a thorn in my flesh since its inception. While I believe I have accomplished much positive ministry online, and I hope to accomplish more for the glory of Christ, social media has provided me with far too many opportunities to sin. Regrettably, over the years I have taken advantage of too many of those opportunities. At times, through social media I have engaged in narcissism, false humility, instigation, provocation, attention-getting, and other sinful behavior.
And:
During a time of prayer this morning, it became very clear to me that I must hack Agag to pieces (1 Samuel 15:1-34). This is to say I have to stop coddling and toying with my social media sins. I have to kill them–hack them to pieces.
Today I deactivated my Facebook and Twitter accounts. I will not consider reactivating them until after January 1, 2016. At that time, I will confer with my pastors, ministry advisory board, and other men whose counsel I trust to determine if I should venture back into the social media waters. (Source)
Did his elders and pastors and ministry advisory board (including my suing pastor Chuck O’Neal) determine it was okay for him to get back into social media waters? He’s been back into social media the whole time he claimed he was taking a break. He did deactivate his “personal” Twitter and Facebook Account. However, he’s still been busy on Instagram, YouTube, his “ministry’s” blog, and his “ministry’s” Twitter account.
The following is an excerpt from a post in which Tony Miano publicly and spiritually shames his own wife, Mahria. My heart goes out to Mahria who certainly must feel pressure to meet her husband’s spiritual approval and assure him she is saved.
Please read the article, When Confronted by Holiness to get the full context.
Here are some excerpts:
For Mahria, things came to a head on Saturday night–our last night in Iowa. As we sat on the edge of our bed, through tears cried into her hands, which covered her face, Mahria confessed a besetting sin. As she wept, she confessed sin that has likely plagued her since her profession of faith in Christ more than 27 years ago–one that she may not have realized, prior to Saturday night, she allowed and coddled in her life. , , ,
Mahria is now examining herself anew. She is testing herself to see if she is in the faith. She is struggling with a lack of assurance of salvation.
If she is just realizing sin that has plagued her, why does that discount her salvation? What kind of doctrine is Tony adhering to that says if a Christian sins, they lose their salvation?
As her husband, I would love to declare Mahria born-again. Everything in me wants to tell Mahria that she has no cause for concern. In my bones, I want to point Mahria back to the night she responded to the gospel. I want to point her back to the moment we were baptized together. I want to point her to the more than 27 years of love, care, and support she has given me through a career in law enforcement and more than 16 years of full-time ministry.
Oh, how easy it would be to act like an Arminian and tell Mahria all she has to do is “rededicate” her life to Jesus. But I can’t. The Word of God keeps getting in the way.
I cannot and will not be Mahria’s Holy Spirit.
Your actions prove otherwise, Tony.
Whether Mahria is not yet born-again or she is saved and struggling with besetting sin, my plea to Mahria is the same: “repent and believe the gospel.”
I find this post so, so offensive. Tony is putting himself in a position as spiritual judge of his precious wife’s salvation. And then he is parading before the world on social media that she has had some hidden sin for 27 years.
If I could speak to Mahria, this is what I would tell her:
Mahria, it took me a long time to learn this, but you do not need your husband’s approval. Your husband does not get to decide for you whether or not you are a Believer. That’s God’s job. Tony claims he is not your Holy Spirit, but he is acting like he is. Having sin in your life does not mean you are an unbeliever. If you’ve had sin that you didn’t realize for 27 years, and you repent and confess it, your work is done. Christ did the rest for you. You can walk in that grace and confidence. I am so sorry that your husband has decided to use you to further his “ministry.” You should not be used like this. You should be cherished, loved, and respected.
Ideally, I would like to tell Mahria to seek help from her church elders/pastor. Sadly, I’m not so convinced they would see things her way. I understand this kind of pain and abandonment. It is horrible.
Of course Tony would say there is nothing more loving than to encourage his wife to repent and believe the gospel. However, he shows no discretion, no respect, no decency, no respect of privacy. My heart literally ached when I read this. This it not love in action.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
This guy looks like typical church planter material. His kind don’t seem to have any trouble gathering a following. You can always spot the fake repentance: the mouth never just shuts up. Nope. Tells you all about the details of his sin, how he understands it, what he is doing about it, yada, yada, yada. Just shut up Tony.
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His post about those struggles is an example of how not to use the web. Please, work through these things together but there’s no need to turn one’s blog into a reality show. The people who can come alongside Mahria in this very private matter are those she knows privately. (2 Cor. 1:3-4 is a good place to look for guidance.)
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Isn’t there some weird extremes with these folks? On the one hand they can’t tell you this or that about a pedophile or rapist because of confidentiality and whatnot, but then we get this, about a guy’s own wife. I’m having trouble reconciling these two approaches. That’s one thought I have.
Related to that thought, all hell breaks loose at even a hint of watchbloggers questioning the reality of the repentance of a criminal in the church (Jordan Root, Josh Duggar, etc), yet this guy gets to publicly doubt his wife’s salvation because of a discovered besetting sin, that she’s apparently very broken over? What is this?
Oh, yeah, he’s an approved pastor™ who “gets the gospel™ right”, so he can do what he pleases.
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I’m with you, Julie. I remember well the misery of constantly checking my deeds and attitudes looking to see if I was still saved, sometimes just tabling the whole examination because it was exhausting and fruitless – I’d just be doing it again the next day. What a way to live. I feel for her.
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He’s no pastor, govpappy. He’s just a street evangelist. Lord help us all if he decides to become a pastor.
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Well thank heaven. My mistake.
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“I will confer with my pastors, ministry advisory board, and other men whose counsel I trust to determine if I should venture back into the social media waters.”
Ok, Tony, we’ll play along with you and pretend, that because these are not your personal, social media page waters, they don’t count towards breaking your January rule.
(Although, it’d probably be good if he’d take the gigantic picture of his face OFF the banner of the new Cross Encounters FB page. One might get confused that the CE Facebook page might be a social media water into which he is swimming.)
Since CON has been retweeting Miano’s tweets, has Miano conferred with CON first to determine if he (Miano) “should venture back into the social media waters,” since CON is a man whose counsel he trusts? Isn’t CON on the ministry advisory board? Did CON give him an early yes? How nice.
Thankfully, Miano doesn’t have much of a following, much to his dismay (and to Christianity’s benefit). And, afaik, he still does not have the official support of his own home church for his ….whatever it is he does.
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He’s no pastor, govpappy. He’s just a street evangelist. Lord help us all if he decides to become a pastor.
And he still doesn’t have the official support of his own home church, afaik. He’s been going there for 2-3 years and still nothing official that he can post on his supporting churches page on the CE website. I wonder why that is?
(Julie Anne-I did the above comment by Anonymous…forgot to sign in.)
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“As she wept, she confessed sin that has likely plagued her since her profession of faith in Christ more than 27 years ago–one that she may not have realized, prior to Saturday night, she allowed and coddled in her life. , , ,
Mahria is now examining herself anew. She is testing herself to see if she is in the faith. She is struggling with a lack of assurance of salvation”
Since social media is such a persistent sin for Miano, one he has allowed and coddled in his own life, was he looking in the mirror as he wrote those words about his wife?
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I am truly sorry for the loss of life in France, I have very bad feeling this is going to get much worse after the possibility that the Russian airline earlier this week was caused by a bomb.
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It’s so very sad, Brian.
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I read the entire article and I will have to say is I don’t want vilify this man as I don’t know him or anything about his ministry. I’m also not familiar with the church he attends even though I have heard of Pastor John Mcarthur and don’t agree with some of his viewers. I will say he never said in his Christians lose their salvation if they sin but that his wife is the one struggling with her salvation. It seems his wife doubts her salvation because of a sin in her life. In that case she needs to realize that if you receive Christ your sins are forgiven. I can’t say for sure if Tony is trying to be his wife’s spiritual judge for saying he pleas with her to just repent and believe in the gospel. As her husband I would think would help his wife with any sins she is dealing within her life and encourage her to embrace and receive Christ and her sins will be forgiven and encourage her to forgive herself. I would have a problem if he’s encouraging his wife’s guilt and shame in her sin and feeding on her fears that she’s doomed from salvation because of her sin. It might be possible that Tony agrees with his wife regarding her struggles with her salvation and does in fact believe that Christians who sins is beyond salvation and which case he’s got it all wrong and so does his wife for that matter. As for privacy, well no one knows if his wife gave her husband consent to write that article so I’m not going to judge him on that one. Interesting article on the same. God Bless.
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Even if she gave consent – – -who is benefiting by this article?? Is she? Doesn’t this put more pressure on her? Is that what we do – -coerce people to repent? How does that come from the heart?
It is my opinion that his article is really about him. He wants everyone to know that he saved his wife from possible hell (if she repents) and now she has to decide.
Godly men would protect their wives from any kind of public shaming. They would respect them. They would fast and pray if they had concern for their salvation. They would not take it to social media. This is sick behavior. I would call it spiritually and emotionally abusive.
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Curious Thinker, you said, “It might be possible that Tony agrees with his wife regarding her struggles with her salvation and does in fact believe that Christians who sins is beyond salvation and which case he’s got it all wrong and so does his wife for that matter.”
Well, YOU are not exactly right according to God…
1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning…Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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Looking from an outside position, a position not optional for Miano, his salvation is the one I question — not that of his wife. The mere fact that the woman is concerned over this alleged besetting sin (and we are not told what that is, and it could be something her psychologically- and emotionally-abusive husband declares to her as a sin) informs me that the Holy Spirit is active within her heart. (The unregenerate are not concerned over their sin.) Wish I could say the same for Miano.
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When is Tony Miano going to get a *real job*, stop going to conferences, mens’ groups, other countries to get arrested, being rude to believers and unbelievers, protesting everywhere, and then asking for handouts to pay for his and his wife’s bills.
Why haven’t his pastors/elders, the men in his life confronted him about not having or getting gainful employment???
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I suspect that there is no besetting sin in his wife’s life but rather that he has harangued her into doubting herself and interpreting some vulnerability as sin. Twenty-seven years of being a Christian before the Holy Spirit tells her this? I don’t believe it.
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I don’t either, Marsha.
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The cruelty of these ‘calvinista’ guys is over the top. With each new instance I hear about, I don’t whether to laugh, cry, cuss, or fart. Probably all four, but I wouldn’t wanna predict in what order.
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1John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his truth is not in us.
Does John go on to contradict himself and contend that Christians cannot sin? No, the later verses do not reflect in English the same meaning as the Greek. Reading the verses in Greek reveals that John is talking about a continuous action; in other words, Christians can and do sin but they do not continue in sin.
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This is so sad! To live under the false guilt, and constant self condemnation, because of false teachings is enough to drive you mad! I know, I lived it!
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I can’t believe (but I can because it IS Miano) that he shared these private moments of his wife on social media. It doesn’t matter if she gave her approval. I would never trust my husband if he did something like this.
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Amen Bridget! I have heard time and again, pastors using their wives as scapegoats for their self appointed hyper-spirituality within the church. These individuals are quick to magnify the sins of others, including those of their loved ones, all the while speaking these words of vain immortalization, “I don’t do anything wrong,” code words for “I never sin.”
Tony threw his wife under the bus, but this is nothing new, for this is a common theme in fundamental churches who stress doctrine, doctrine, and more doctrine, and completely missing the mark of the love Jesus exhibited towards sinners. Perhaps Tony is pointing this out publicly because there are deep rooted secret sins in his own life that he desires to keep hidden, so projecting attention onto her is far more beneficial to his superficial faith in a god of his own making.
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I watched most of his first “encounter with holiness” video and the verbal bullying I saw him assaulting a young security guard with reminded of one thing: law enforcement confronting a legitimate threat. Tony has not left behind his law enforcement background…but he needs to. His treatment of that young man (who posed no threat whatsoever), using his name repeatedly when asked not to, and then telling him he was going to post it to you tube, and then telling him he needs to learn the law, and the contempt and derision in his (way too loud) voice was over the top. God brought two thoughts to my mind: Jesus glancing up at Zaccheus and saying, hey friend, let’s have dinner together. And Pilate failing to listen to his wife.
I believe Tony has not just missed opportunities with the abortion culture and his wife, but has done great violence to both. In failing to regard those who have deemed abortion their best option as frail humans facing dire straits and choosing to publicly vilify and shame them, he has inserted a wedge between them and Christ, and has pushed them into their decision to terminate a life. He has done this to elevate himself, because growling through a bullhorn is less costly than offering the financial assistance they need and which biblically falls to the church (ouch, huh?). This leaves less money to support the Miano family, which is a link on his webpage.
And his wife? Telling her to repent and believe is more bullying, given that the god of non-Arminianism has sole responsibility for repentance and belief.
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Note that this “revelation” came to the wife after a long visit at a patriarchal church, where she witnessed legalistic behavior that caused her great concern. I have a feeling that Tony was speaking to her about new ways they would be doing things after seeing this “holy” church in action, and she was upset.
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Poor, poor wife.
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If I acted like Miano, I think my wife would’ve smothered me with a pillow by now–and I don’t think that would’ve necessarily been a besetting sin for her to do so.
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Janet,
You are spot on!!! Your finger is definitely on the pulse of the Miano psyche. Let me add one inevitable statement to your excellent thoughts on Miano driving a wedge between those in the abortion culture and Christ: the Motivator behind such activity is certainly not the Holy Spirit, since He seeks to move people toward Christ, but can only be the Enemy of Christ. God bless!
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April, I believe you are correct. By the way, I tweeted to Mike Reid, the pastor of the church where Tony and Mahria visited. I asked him if he was aware of Tony’s post and if he thought it was appropriate. No response yet.
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Tony Miano — the Jerry Springer of Christian social media.
Mahria is the one working to support this loser.
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Janet, your comment is so excellent. I recall watching a YouTube video showing a confrontation in Portland (with Chuck O’Neal, of course), in which Tony created mayhem for the police officers involved. The police officer even told Chuck that Tony (being former law enforcement) should know that his behavior was impeding their work and caused them to have to deal with Tony’s behavior rather than the investigative work that Tony and Chuck had reported. Tony even bullies police officers. It’s interesting that Tony believes he shows law enforcement respect. He uses all of the right lingo with “yes, sir,” “thank you for your service,” etc, but his actions show otherwise.
It is also interesting that this man claims to be evangelizing, yet it seems that he is “anti-evangelizing.” It makes sense thatTony and Chuck are friends. Chuck did the same thing in his church, causing more Christians to be so confused about their salvation, not understanding the richness of God’s grace which is free to all who believe, repent and call on His name. I’m disgusted by these men who wave the “doctrines of grace” banner yet use spirituality as a weapon and beat not only nonbelievers, but Believers as well.
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https://youtu.be/KDoE7iHgZFM I think this is the one Julie Anne is referring to
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That’s a different incident, Brian. As I said, these two deal with law enforcement quite a bit. I think Tony removed the video because at the end of the video, the officer clearly identified where Tony interfered with law enforcement. It probably didn’t look good for Tony that CON agreed with the officer.
Here’s Tony’s side of the story. Get out your violins: http://crossencountersmin.com/featured-article/christians-assaulted-portland-planned-parenthood/
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Here someone asks Tony if he’s back on Twitter. (He is, he just deactivated his old TonyMiano account and started up the new CrossEncounter account.)
https://twitter.com/xencountersmin/status/664602256055005185
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I found the one video where TM is talking to the officers concerning the incident, I do agree throwing a chemical substance on a person is very dangerous and should be investigated. That aside TM and his group really do not have a clue about the damage they do.
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Yes, absolutely, it should be investigated, but TM doesn’t get to be the one in charge of the investigation and that’s what he was doing – – trying to tell law enforcement how to do their job. You’re right, Brian, they don’t have a clue about the damage that they do because they don’t want to have a clue. They choose to ignore the cries from people who have been harmed and victim blame.
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Julie Anne, please delete this question if is offensive to anyone here.
Question: “Is Tony Miano a part of the Christian Women Haters Club of America?
It seems their numbers are growing; must be all of that godly evangelizing they’re doing these days on the streets.
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“Mahria’s reaction to our time with the GFC family was more intense. Mahria struggled with thoughts about Grace Fellowship Church, which included thoughts of legalism. While she was blessed each day with the fellowship she had with the women and children of the church, Mahria struggled with thoughts that something was wrong. Something just wasn’t right in the church. I asked Mahria if what she thought was legalism could actually be a pursuit of holiness to a level she has never experienced. She allowed for the possibility.”
The above quote also came from the article. Then I took a look at the GFC website. Aside from being a family integrated church, the other thing that jumped out at me was their section under the doctrine tab on separation* from the world.
__________________________________________________________________
We teach that separation from sin is clearly called for throughout the Old and New Testaments, and that the Scriptures clearly indicate that in the last days apostasy and worldliness shall increase.
We teach that out of deep gratitude for the undeserved grace of God granted to us and because our glorious God is so worthy of our total consecration, all the saved should live in such a manner as to demonstrate our adoring love to God and so as not to bring reproach upon our Lord and Savior. We also teach that separation from all religious apostasy and worldly and sinful practices is commanded of us by God.
We teach that believers should be separated unto our Lord Jesus Christ, and affirm that the Christian life is a life of obedient righteousness that reflects the teaching of the Beatitudes, and a continual pursuit of holiness.
*I omitted the various Scripture references they included with each sentence.
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Here’s the video where Chuck speaks with officers who are talking about Tony’s behavior. Chuck says he sees where they are coming from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc8nG4hTNgc
32:50 is where CON throws Tony under the bus.
Or you can back up to 29:30 to hear Chuck’s summary of events.
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Katy,
As far as I know, he is not part of any official Christian Women Haters Club of America.
He has no need to. His behavior and the people he aligns with automatically treat woman as a lower class.
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I don’t know what they consider to be religious apostasy or worldly and sinful practices, so it’s hard to say whether they are in fact legalistic or not. Some of their language reminds me of old school fundamentalism; if they are anywhere close to the shape of that mold, it’s at least possible that Mrs. Miano felt convicted for something that isn’t necessarily sin.
Even if it was a genuine besetting sin, I can only hope he had her permission. I know if my husband had done that to me, there would have been a serious blowup and I would have gotten that thing deleted, one way or another.
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Tony Miano is always talking about his long-ago job working in law enforcement. He couldn’t get a job in that profession, couldn’t pass the background checks and psyche exams, and all he can talk about is his past. Whom in their right mind would hire this uncivil guy to work for them?
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I disagree Mister, I stand by the fact that Christians do sin some more than others and they are not beyond salvation or redemption. Once you embrace and receive Christ, your sins are forgiven. God Bless.
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then they said “providence determines what happens” or some such phrase, these people actually think God is “allowing” all this to some greater good. Barf that’s my response. The police did a fantastic job.
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Screaming into his bullhorn.
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@Velour:
“I was a Football Star in High School. Once I Scored Three Touchdowns in One Game!”
— Al Bundy, Fortysomething loser of Married with Children
“When I Served in VIETNAAAAAAAM…”
— John F Kerry
In fandom, you know a lot of people who work as security guards. According to them the worst type of guy to have working security is The Wannabe Cop who washed out of police academy. Because you get an abuser — Cartman with a badge and baton. And THAT’s what this description of Miano sounds like.
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@AprilKelsey:
New ways as in “PAPA SPANK!”?
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”?
Both ends of the alimentary canal a la Driscoll?
Plural Marriage (Handmaid Workaround)?
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@JulieAnne:
Except that these days, “spiritually and emotionally abusive” IS the definition of Godly(TM).
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Marsha,
My sneaking suspicion — Mahria admitted that she’s found herself unable to respect Tony, her “spiritual head”. And if so, who could blame her? The man refuses to work a real job, and his idea of “ministry” does nothing but turn people away from Christ, as far as I can tell. And to provide for his family, he relies on his wife’s salary and handouts from his followers. I’ve got nothing against women working, or against depending on charity in dire straits. But what am I supposed to make of a husband like Tony, able-bodied and fully capable of working, refusing to earn some kind of salary?
What woman wouldn’t have trouble respecting that nonsense?
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This thought has come up in other blogs but it seems really crucial to question directly the theology of Tony’s evangelistic ministry. BGBC clearly teaches the divine election of some to salvation according to its web page. By God’s divine will, most are “chosen” to be tortured endlessly. BGBC does not address the unbiblical doctrine of “age of accountability” (the get out of hell free card, if your’e 12 or under), but John MacArthur absolutely supports it, and I have read Tony is now a member of his church (Grace Community Church). So if Tony believes that only a few are chosen for salvation, and the vast majority for endless torment, with the exception of those who die in childhood…
Aren’t abortionists the greatest evangelists in history, assuring a 100% rate of salvation for those who would otherwise live past 12 and probably remain unsaved? So when Tony yells to a police officer, “We saved two babies today!” we have to ask him, you saved them from what? A momentary pain compared to an eternity of torment? Shame on you!
For the record, since I became a Berean, I have been blessed to jettison the church’s pet doctrines of “hell” and “election.” Before anyone teaches others about a monstrous and unjust god (or a good god who does things that just appear unjust and monstrous), dig, dig, dig. If it doesn’t make sense, dig some more, and let the holy spirit guide you. I believe we are all saved not “by faith in Christ” as it is commonly translated, but by “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ,” a more accurate translation IMO. And I rest in this: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” 1 Tim 4:10
I hope this is not an offense. I felt I had to add my personal theology of salvation to not appear that I was accusing God of injustice.
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Tony and others like him could probably benefit from the phrase “Do good plus no harm”. Yeah, words resembling the gospel are being given, but everything else about the presentation is harmful to the cause of Christ.
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“Cross Encounters Min @xencountersmin
@rollcoll Just a little. @TimSchiller_ is doing most of the posting. I’m still on super secret social media probation……I mean sabbatical”
6:35 PM – 11 Nov 2015
It’s not super secret…did he forget the huge post he wrote about it? If’s it’s probation, he’s violated it. It’s not a sabbatical, because he’s still doing it.
It’d probably be better for him not to be carelessly joking about his recurrent, social media disasters, which he claims he had to hack to death with an axe before returning to “the social media waters,” as he puts it.
He might want to ask JMac for a stronger axe to start hacking away at his pride because Agag has returned in that tweet. To me, it sounds like he’s trying to make light of his social media situation, which tells me how he really feels about insulting those of the Arminian persuasion that started his whole (non) absence from social media until January in the first place. It’s no big deal.
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This is a horrible place to be. In this environment, who can she go to? The default response is that she is not obeying her spiritual head. They do not typically default to looking at husband’s behavior – – especially someone who is very active in ministry promoting their brand of doctrine. She very well could have a crisis of faith, go into a deep depression of self-loathing because of not measuring up to her “godly wife” role, etc.
This is a very confusing place to be. I imagine part of her wants to do the right thing, be submissive, be holy, etc., but if she is seeing what she saw as legalism in the church, questioning how Mike Reid’s church affected her, it’s very complicated. There really is no place of spiritual peace with her husband magnifying her spiritual state and judging. To have one’s spiritual life paraded on social media like a commodity is about the cruelest form of spiritual abuse between husband and wife I can imagine.
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The problem I believe is the false ‘Lordship Salvation’ gospel. There is an excellent expose about this on youtube under ‘Another Gospel – Lordship Salvation’.
I left the church to follow the Lord. Lordship Salvation has men ‘examine’ themselves and their ‘works’ in order to validate the genuine nature of their salvation.
Jesus says, “Believe”.
Paul says, “Believe”.
Lordship Salvationists say believing ain’t enough.
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@Serving Kids in Japan:
Mooches and Suckers,
Parasites and Hosts…
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@JulieAnne:
All ManaGAWD Tony has to do is start parading her sexual life as well (“JUICY! JUICY! JUICY!”) and he’s right up there with ManaGAWD Marky-Mark. (Best-seller book deals and all?)
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@Janet:
There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.
(Why am I not surprised?)
“There is no Dana, there is only Zuul.”
— Ghostbusters
And under CALVIN, the Elect are constantly trying to prove to themselves that THEY are The Elect. And since in the Zero Sum Game, the only way to climb up is to push someone else down…
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I am sorry to post this a bit off topic, but I dont get why Piper sees a need say this same line when people are just maybe processing the horror.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/france-a-fabric-torn
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He has the most uplifting words after a tragedy. NOT!
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Must be hell to be married to that j***
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@Serving Kids in Japan:
“I’ve got nothing against women working, or against depending on charity in dire straits. But what am I supposed to make of a husband like Tony, able-bodied and fully capable of working, refusing to earn some kind of salary?”
————
This comment makes sense in a patriarchal or complementarian context, which I assume is the world Mr. Miano lives in. However, an egalitarian might not see anything wrong with a gender-roles flipped household. I know many families where the husband works full time and the wife (although the kids are now older) still takes care of the house and does volunteer work rather than returning to the paid work force. It sounds like the Miano’s household is like this, only gender flipped. Although we here all have a problem with the poor way he does his “volunteer work,” I’m surprised at the criticism that infers he is not doing his role as a *man*. Would we complain about a woman in the same position (only regarding the point about not making a salary)? Should we?
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Visitor –
“Although we here all have a problem with the poor way he does his “volunteer work,” I’m surprised at the criticism that infers he is not doing his role as a *man*.”
The criticisim is for the fact that Miano believes in complementariansim and roles for men and women, yet he does not live that life. His wife and daughters work to support his “ministry” and he asks for donations from the public. His is hypocritical.
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Tony Miano’s post made me very angry for the sake of his wife, and I did in fact discuss it with my husband, who was also shocked. I’ve said more on my blog FB page, but my main thought is this: There are no good words for this kind of abuse: using a spouse’s private vulnerability as a public sermon illustration is disgusting. How can she trust him to love her like Christ, when he does something like this? How in the heck does this guy think he has the right to talk about what women can and cannot do in the church after treating his wife as an object? Tony Miano needs serious psychological help.
I stand by this thought. I am very concerned for those who support men like Tony Miano. I can’t imagine being married to someone who thinks it’s ok to publicly broadcast a private conversation in this way. If she had her own blog and did the same to Tony, I bet she would be castigated as un-submissive. This is a very dangerous path that Tony and men like him are on. This is most definitely religious extremism and not Christlikeness. Christ never shames His Bride.
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So from the original blog of Miano, they had just visited a church which sounds like it really pushed a “works” oriented salvation but phrased as a “pursuit of holiness”. How many times have I fallen into that trap. Then his wife, after being highly influenced by this crowd and not calling it out as legalism, starts to doubt her salvation. That is exactly what happens when you put your salvation in “looking” good or “doing” good instead of trusting in all that Jesus has done for you. Just because we sin doesn’t change His love and acceptance for us as His children. He never forsakes you. Yes, we can change and do by the power of the Holy Spirit. We have the Holy Spirit in us. How about Miano comes alongside his wife and reminds her of this truth? How about he be the hands and feet of Jesus to his wife? But then would that go against the whole Calvinism belief in predestination? See, this is what is so frustrating for me.
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It doesn’t matter whether it is the husband working outside the home or the wife. If that person’s income isn’t enough to support the family, then they should cut back on their spending or the second person should get a job. If they have cut expenditures to the bone and can’t find work because no one is hiring or someone has to be home caregiving for a sick family member, then they should look for temporary public or charitable support.
Tony is not really volunteering because he is constantly asking the public for money. He doesn’t want to pursue other options. By now he could have gone to seminary, gotten a degree and pursued work either as a minister or as an employee of a nonprofit but he doesn’t want to do the work like the rest of did to prepare for a career.
And even for those who share Miano’s values and mission, he is not a good bet. If I want to support efforts to help others, I want to go through a church or a 501c3 nonprofit with a record of good financial oversight, supervision, and effectiveness. Miano’s contributors get none of that.
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Street evangelism seems like a convenient cover for people who hate other people and want to judge them and scream at them.
“Respect what is right in the sight of all men”
“Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
“always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence”
“The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth”
“Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”
I could go on but it should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the New Testament that obnoxious street preaching is a complete sham.
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In fandom, this is called “Floating with No Visible Means of Support.”
A more common name is “Mooching”.
And anyone in fandom who has a reputation for being “Rich(TM)” — i.e. has a job — can tell you a lot of horror stories along those lines.
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“I’m surprised at the criticism that infers he is not doing his role as a *man*. ” – Visitor
Even the Apostle Paul worked and made tents, etc. Tony Miano will not support his family. He will not submit to authorities, i.e. employers. He has a bad attitude all the way around. It has nothing to do with being Comp or Egal, this guy is a bum. Constantly screaming at other people – believers and unbelievers – instead of getting his own messed up life in order. He’s a bum who won’t be quiet and get to work. He’s constantly whining and asking for handouts.
NO RESPECT!
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Since leaving the building to meet with the church I have questioned the practice of salaried to ‘serve’ capital p Pastors in light of the Scriptures.
Not sure if many of you have done the same. My thoughts as follows:
1. The Bible is pretty quiet about paying money to men or women to act as Shepherds (what the function of a Pastor/Elder is).
2. 1 Corinthians 9 is the go to chapter to justify it. Note: it’s all about PAUL, not PASTORS/ELDERS. It’s not about you big bible thumping guy. It’s about 1st Century Apostles! Context Context Context!
3. The word Pastor is not mentioned ONCE in the NT. “Ahh yes but ELDER IS!!!”
4. Ok… So an Elder is simply that. Elder to a Younger (haha). In the Bible the word Elder is an adjective, not a noun. Therefore it does not make sense to refer to someone as Elder/Pastor John. It is as ridiculous as referring to a younger woman in the congregation as Younger Jessica. (get my drift?) Elder/Pastor is not a title, it’s a function. How on earth did it get to this? (hint: Rome Rome Rome Popes Popes Popes. To be subtle) You don’t call someone gifted in the area of helps/mercy as Sister of Mercy Elizabeth.. so why on earth would you refer to someone as ‘Pastor’ or ‘Elder’? Ask a Pastor if he’d mind dropping the very important person title. See the reaction.
4. Ask a FT, Salaried Pastor this question:
If you were not getting paid to do this (ie: SERVE) would you still do it?
– We know the answer to this must be NO… because, “How on earth would I eat?”
Great question:
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.” – 2 Thessalonians 3:10
Charlatans…
the lot of them.
Show me a gathering of believers where the one doing the leading is doing it for FREE… because of love for the saints.
That’s where I wanna be taking my awesome cookies.
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Dear Visitor,
My apologies for not responding before now. I didn’t notice your comment until it was time for me to go bed, and then I had work the next day. Thank you for your patience.
I have a lot of respect for housewives (and househusbands); I have some idea of how much work it requires to keep a home in order. And if I felt that Tony was making such a positive and constructive use of his time while Mahria earns a living, I would agree with you. But I see him doing nothing but frittering hours away on social media, adoring the sound of his own voice, and verbally browbeating random strangers in the street. Is all of that just so important that he can’t be bothered to contribute to his family’s needs? Everything he calls “ministry” is simply that essential? He can’t cut back on it at all to help his wife with the finances — or at leas the housework?
I don’t mean to say that Miano isn’t acting “like a man”. He’s not acting like a responsible, intelligent, caring adult. His behaviour reminds me of an entitled, know-it-all teenager, counting on his single mom to foot the bill for his all-important social life and all his fun fun fun. That’s my issue with him.
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lifewithporpoise
Much agreement with your comment.
Here is a young pastor who resigned from being a salaried pastor because…
“Not only did I find no evidence for salaried pastors,
**I didn’t find any evidence for modern pastors at all.**”
———-
“I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring – four years later”
http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-i-resigned-from-professional.html
“I wanted to find out whether or not pastors in the bible received salaries. Well, I found a lot more than I was looking for. Not only did I find no evidence for salaried pastors, **I didn’t find any evidence for modern pastors at all.** Beyond that, what I saw of the church in the New Testament was drastically different from the institutional churches of today. All these findings sent me into a bit of a crisis.”…
“… passages such as I Corinthians 9 and I Timothy 5 actually do not indicate that pastors should be paid salaries. I Corinthians 9 deals with traveling evangelists. I Timothy 5 speaks of “double honor,” but there is no indication that this means salaries.”
“The more I studied the New Testament, the more I saw that
*modern pastors* have little in common with biblical elders.”
“…After seeing all this, I couldn’t remain a salaried pastor. After several months of study, prayer, and struggle, I decided that I simply had to resign. I could not in good conscience continue to either receive a salary or continue to be a modern day pastor. **There just isn’t any biblical basis for either.**”
—————–
Seems the only one in the NT with the “Title/Position”
Shepherd/Leader/Reverend…
IS…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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@Velour:
I read somewhere that when a man cannot or will not support himself (as in mooching off mommy or wifey or welfare), he tends to redefine “being a man” in hypermasculine terms of getting laid, owning/shooting guns, and picking fights at the drop of a hat (including dropping the hat himself). Don’t know about the first two (though #1 would fit real well with X-treme comp), but Tony’s preaching fits well into the third.
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Julie Anne,
I’ve only recently started reading your posts and have seen no need to post comments. However, after reading your comments about John Piper’s post about the terrorist attacks, and then having read the full post on his site, it’s time to speak up. Please tolerate a lengthy response.
First a quick intro: I am an American missionary serving in France since 1992. My wife is French and my children were born here. French friends of ours lost friends in the terrorist attacks.
IMHO, someone who wishes to address a message to France should pay more attention to the need for compassion than to the formulating of poetic sentences. We definitely don’t need religious advice from someone sitting comfortably in his office. In order for France to hear, we more need believers who come alongside those who suffer or grieve, who pray for us more than just once on a given Sunday, than we do the “righteous” preaching at us from afar.
In the days ahead, people here need to hear those who “weep with those who weep”. They need to hear the compassionate words of a Good Samaritan as he kneels down on the bloodied, dirty road and tends to the wounds of the one who’s body is broken. They need to feel loving hands holding theirs, no words need be spoken. They need to know that God, the one true God, is not absent nor indifferent to their suffering. Yes, one day, His vengeance will come, but where is He today?
It is when they hear those words and see those acts of compassion, combined with our intercession on their behalf, that those we serve in France will be able to, or more honestly, willing to hear Jesus’ words and come to him. Pray therefore in this way for us.
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Welcome, A Missionary Pastor,
First, my heart and prayers go out to your family, friends, and country suffering after the recent terrorist attack in Paris. I lived in Paris as an exchange student when I was a teen and I tried to imagine the atmosphere on a beautiful October Friday evening as people are out with friends and family enjoying each other’s company. That is one of the things I so appreciated about French culture, the amount of time they spent with loved ones.
The article you’ve read from Piper is no different from many other articles or tweets. He has lost the meaning of love. His god is his hyper-Calvinism and he uses every opportunity to push his doctrine on anyone who will read/listen. Consequently, I believe he pushes people away from a merciful God who cares about people when they are in pain.
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@ A Missionary Pastor
While the likes of John Piper may see the people of France as nothing more than the potential, but conditional, objects of the undeserved favor of an arbitrary and wrathful God, there are those of us who deeply feel themselves, this day, to be one with the people of France.
I will go so far as to say that, in my mind’s eye, I see Jesus Himself wrapped in a blood-stained shawl consisting of equal upright bands of blue, white, and red; and He is weeping for France.
If you think it will help, please tell your friends.
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Depending on how he’s feeling, Piper may be tempted to label certain groups of people as “small potatoes” in light of God’s plan.
I wouldn’t feel too good about anything Piper says when it concerns tragedy.
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I’m going to be posting A Missionary Pastor’s response as a post tonight. More eyes need to see it for a number of reasons.
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His god is no different than the god of ISIS (who also use every opportunity to push their Caliphate on anyone). Omnipotent but NOT benevolent.
“IN’SHAL’LAH…”
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What does Arminianism have to do with rededicating one’s life to Jesus? Why is he taking this random potshot that has nothing to do with Arminius, John Wesley, or the giant horde of early church fathers who held to similar beliefs on free will/election?
Gotta love how he publicizes his wife’s struggles to boost himself up.
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Julie Anne – I went and read Miano’s entire article. For me this was an unnerving experience. In my late teens and early twenties I suffered from “religious scrupulosity”. My parents and the Holy Spirit worked together to help me through that. In my late twenties and thirties severe anxiety and some depression surfaced. Reading what Miano said about the church in Iowa made me very uncomfortable when combined with Mahria’s response and his pushing of the idea of an unusual “pursuit of holiness”. I know where an unbiblical and over-zealous “pursuit of holiness” leads, and it isn’t pretty. I fully believe that it contributed to the later anxiety issues I had, especially since I was overcome in the early years of the anxiety disorder with unreasonable concern for past sins. I also doubted my salvation for a time. THANK GOD, I have a mother who was bold enough to tell me flatly that she didn’t doubt my salvation because she had seen fruit in my life! We don’t just know the false prophets by their fruits – Gal. 5. I also know for a fact that the Holy Spirit is not the only One who puts people under conviction. The world, the flesh and the devil are fully up to that job as well, and all three can make it feel so REAL. (It gives me the horrors just remembering.)
Miano did not help her with the suggestions he made. He ultimately encouraged her to doubt her own spiritual integrity for being uncomfortable about a spiritual situation, which led to her doubting her salvation. Instead of stepping back and asking himself why the woman he’s worked with for all those years is uncomfortable, he assumed that the people who made her uncomfortable were right and she was wrong. Could she have sin? Yes. Does that mean she isn’t saved? No. But, coming from where I’ve been, having walked those perilous paths of “deep holiness”, my first inclination would be to question the “very holy people”, not the woman who had been walking steady for many years. (Especially one who could put with someone like Miano, but that’s beside the point.)
God have mercy on this poor lady! If she needs to confess and forsake sin, fine and well (but it didn’t need to be made public!). My gut reaction though is that something very strange is going on in that church. I may be all wet, but having been consumed with “unusual pursuit of holiness” myself, I do know a little about it. 😦 (I’m having what feels like anxiety symptoms from just reading and thinking about this.)
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I don’t know why, but I keep coming up against things lately that remind me over and over of this verse:
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
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Mary, I hope you don’t mind me commenting on something you wrote above…
You wrote this:
“I have a mother who was bold enough to tell me flatly that she didn’t doubt my salvation because she had seen fruit in my life! We don’t just know the false prophets by their fruits – Gal. 5.”
The Bible never once tells us that we can know for sure we have salvation by examining “fruit” in our life. Salvation is the gift of God and there is nothing we need to do by way of works to obtain it or to validate our profession of faith.
Lordship Salvationists like Tony Miano (John Macarthur, Comfort, Washer etc) all promote this false ‘gospel’ of works.
How do we know if we are saved?
Who is the object of our faith?
Who do we believe in?
If we for but one second take our eyes off the Cross and place them onto our perceived fruits (how much fruit is enough?!)… we will start doubting and go down a path of self righteousness.
I’ve been there…
it’s horrible.
“So then can we trust in Jesus and then sin all we like”, the LSers ask…
Romans 6 – Paul says, “Shall we then sin so we can let grace abound?”… NO!
Truth: all of us live as we please.
If we want to be obedient to the Lord we confess… there will likely be fruit.
But fruit doesn’t necessarily mean we’re trusting in Jesus.
White.Washed.Tombs.
Love in Christ to you 🙂
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That’s it right there. And I think that is one of the reasons I had such huge issues with my former pastor. When my close friend week after week was in tears doubting her salvation, it was so hard to watch. Consequently, it made me wonder if there was something amiss with my relationship with Christ. Having a leader (or husband, in this case) encouraging you to doubt yourself is so wrong on so many levels.
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Oh, and adding to the above thought, Tony Miano and Chuck O’Neal are really putting themselves in the position of the Holy Spirit when they do this. That is not their job.
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Lifewithporpoise – I’m afraid you misunderstood me because you don’t know me. Among those that I have fellowshipped with there has been less of the Lordship salvation (which I Do Not agree with), and more of the “you aren’t saved because only I know I’m saved” rot. I have heard a pastor stand before his congregation and family and boldly declare that he was the only person in the room whom he knew was saved. I loathe this teaching and mentality because of it is unbiblical, self-righteous and meant to make people question their salvation (so that they can be “re-treaded” at the altar and carved on the preacher’s gun as another notch). The Apostle Paul repeatedly speaks to believers in his epistles as if he knew they Were saved – even those messes at Corinth who were tolerating nasty sin and exhibiting poor behavior. He knew because he saw the fruit of the Spirit in them – he knew because he saw the evidence of the belief that they had professed.
I in no way believe in works salvation, Titus 3:5. But, I do believe that when a person is truly born again they will be a new creature in Christ, 2 Cor. 5:17. My mother said what she did because she was present when I confessed my faith in Jesus Christ as a child and she had watched HIM change ME over the years of my life. I think maybe there is some confusion about what the fruits of the Spirit are. They are not My works or fruits – they are HIS works in me because I am His. And, that, friend, is a wonderful thought!! 🙂
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
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Lifewithporpoise – I should also mention that there are people who exhibit works, but they aren’t saved because they are trusting in themselves or their works for salvation. I wrote the testimony of a dear friend of mine who experienced this.
http://thecottonapron.blogspot.com/2012/08/a-church-member-but-not-saved.html
It might help you better understand my position on this. I do know that some people trust in their works and others view those people’s works as evidence of salvation. My friend professed faith in Christ and she seemed to have works, but they were her own works and not the fruit of the Spirit working in her life – which is probably why they made me uncomfortable. Just a thought.
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Julie Anne – You said:
When my close friend week after week was in tears doubting her salvation, it was so hard to watch.
Oh, the tragedy of that. We knew a lady in one IFB church my family attended for awhile who went forward to the altar and wept every time there was an invitation, and yet she never seemed to make in headway with whatever it was that was tormenting her. It makes me sad still to think about it. Some of the awful, really awful, invitations we heard in that church too – the browbeating, the guilt trips, the shaming, the spiritual abuse. I couldn’t sit there and listen now. (So, as per your question in a recent post – yes the increased awareness about spiritual abuse is making a difference!) If I had been raised that way I hate to think what I would have become when I went through that scrupulosity.
As a side note – my parents were missionaries’ kids who attended a missionary boarding school. They had heard thousands of sermons over the span of their lives. There was one sermon in particular that we heard in the above mentioned IFB church from a “guest speaker” that they both agreed was the worst they ever heard in their lives. They were in their 60s at the time.
It is so grievous how much some leaders beat the sheep instead of feeding them. I also remember how my dad mentioned more than once that these men were trying to do the Holy Spirit’s job for Him, that they didn’t really believe that He could do it on His own. It’s mind-boggling really. Makes you want to ask them who their god really is.
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Thanks Mary. 🙂 I’ll have a read of your post later today.
I have confidence in the fact that God knows those who belong to Him.
How sad that people live their lives hoping that they are doing enough to impress God and make it into eternity.
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@Velour:
“I was a Football Star in High School. Once I scored Three Touchdowns in One Game.”
— Al Bundy, Married with Children
“When I Served In VIETNAAAAAAM…”
— John F Kerry, 2004 Presidential Candidate
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@LifeWithPorpoise:
Gotta keep your nose squeaky-clean to pass that Great White Throne Litmus Test.
Or be Left Behind(TM).
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“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” – John 17:3
Salvation is often viewed as simply a get out of jail free ticket.
Eternal life is now. Not at the resurrection. He dwells within us. The eternal Word of God. 🙂 Forgiven = new birth. No death to fear (second death).
Awesome.
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Excellent piece, Julie Anne.
As an evangelist, this guy is a bully. He’s come to the Uk on several occasions and he loves to control, harangue, bully and use his loud ‘booming’ voice to beat people down, even people who are busy and rushing to work or appointments. He’s obsessed with control, authoritarianism and is very condescending and patronising. He constantly interrupts and railroads any and all conversations. Perhaps, he still thinks he’s a serving cop? He has this ‘stop and search’ approach and displays very little sensitivity or compassion. It’s Tony’s way or the highway. He’s a very, very poor example of humility. 1 Peter 3:15 says, “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness [gentleness, humility, mildness, gentle strength, expressing power with reserve and gentleness, divinely-balanced virtue] and fear [respect, reverence].” Miano definitely DOESN’T display these attributes in evangelism. He needs to win, because he sees it as HIS victory and not the Lord’s. It feels as if he’s pushing for n arrest or conviction. A REAL carnal spirit. Perhaps, he feels he’s gone from one position of authority and power to another – from the physical to the spiritual; from the legal to the theological; from jurisprudence to the Bible – and his tactics haven’t changed. He’s known as a real agitator and evangelism has become even more difficult because of the sour taste he has left in people’s mouths.He tends to evangelise alone, or with people who are ‘yes’ men and can take ‘order’, not instructions or direction.
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Clockwork Angel You said “Gotta love how he publicizes his wife’s struggles to boost himself up.” This is a famous and well known technique used by narcissists, manipulators and psychopaths/sociopaths and people with personality disorders. It’s well known within the fields of Psychiatry, Clinical Psychology and Counselling/Psychotherapy.
It’s called Social/Relational/Psychological Vampirism. Like Dracula, the victim has their blood drained to their detriment, while Dracula gains strength at their expense. You can even find it in churches and other organisations. The ‘victim’ is gaslighted, bullied, set upon – psychologically – and humiliated and ‘drained’ of self respect, confidence, self value or self worth. They feel subservient, worthless, inferior, of no consequence as their tormentor is see to be strong, superior, invincible, unquestionable, infallible, the ‘master,’
This happens all the time in abusive relationships, where there is no respect, compassion, sensitivity, care, or even human regard for the other person. The victim is only useful as long as they provide for the needs of the ‘other.’ The victim must take on the role of the ‘giver’ and NEVER the taker or be expectant of anything. Their position in these relationships is purely functional and utilitarian.
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