Pastor Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church Taught Parents to Spank Adult Children
One of the more challenging aspects about abuse is the recurring triggers, even years after abuse.
In the strictest sense of the term, trigger is used to refer to experiences that “re-trigger” trauma in the form of flashbacks or overwhelming feelings of sadness, anxiety, or panic. The brain forms a connection between a trigger and the feelings with which it is associated, and some triggers are quite innocuous. For example, a person who smelled incense while being raped might have a panic attack when he or she smells incense in a store (Source).
It started over a week ago when I heard the tragic news about brothers who were beaten by their parents and other church members in a so-called counseling session.
A mother and father whipped their 19-year-old son in church with an electrical cord and what appeared to be a belt during a deadly, all-night spiritual counseling session triggered by his desire to leave the fold, according to witness testimony and police Friday. (Source)
This 19-year old, Lucas Leonard, died from the beatings, and his younger 17-yr old brother, Christopher, remained hospitalized. If you’d like to read more on this story, my friends at The Wartburg Watch blog have written an article: The Fatal Beating of a Teenager in a New York Church – We Are Outraged!
trigger, trigger, trigger
The very first week we arrived at Beaverton Grace Bible Church in 2006, a sweet teenager forewarned me that all teens at Beaverton Grace Bible Church will have counseling meetings with the pastor – – – for discipline issues. That struck me as odd. The teens were that bad? The parents were okay with these meetings? Why weren’t the parents in the meetings? I filed that thought away and it was after leaving the church that I recalled the conversation.
I do not remember hearing about 10-hour counseling sessions with Chuck O’Neal and teens, but we know first-hand they were long, lasting certainly more than an hour, sometimes 2 or 3 hours, and longer. Those in the counseling hot seat were often beaten down spiritually and emotionally.
Reading about the beatings of the brothers in New York also reminded me of the teachings of Chuck O’Neal. He was very clear that if you had children and even adult children living in the home, and they were in sin, they needed to be disciplined with the rod. He said it didn’t matter what age they were, but we, as parents, were responsible for their “training” while they remained at home. I even remember him mentioning that “legal adult” age of 18 should make no difference because the Bible does not refer to any legal age. We were to obey the Bible before the laws of the land.
In Oregon, it is illegal to physically harm a legal adult. I can think of at least a handful of young adults who could report their parents for abuse, including my own adults, based on following the teachings of Chuck O’Neal. At least one of my adult children was spanked, possibly two. We, as parents, were trying to be godly and raise our children the way our spiritual leader taught us. I’ve discussed this topic here before, and it’s heart-wrenching to think about, and yes, sometimes I am still saddened and angry that we trusted Chuck O’Neal to guide us in our parenting when followed some of his abusive teachings.
When the story of the beaten 19 and 17-yr old brothers broke, I tweeted that it had triggered me. I also tweeted that Chuck O’Neal had taught us to spank our adult children. Chuck did not respond to that tweet. There was complete and utter silence. But in return, I have been barraged with tweets from Tonya O’Neal and Chuck O’Neal over the weekend and through the week on issues they have against me. No surprises there. They respond to my tweets with links to Chuck’s blog against me (cuz all pastors have blogs against former members who expressed angst against them, right?).
Rather than be a shepherd to his flock, O’Neal has been using his time revamping his blogging efforts against me on other fabricated stories aimed to destroy my image. This is how it works with Chuck O’Neal. I hit a nerve and now he is retaliating. I really don’t care what he has to say about me publicly. I think his public behavior speaks for itself. But he is a fascinating case study on narcissism. It’s interesting to look at how he words things to his advantage. He’s taught me a lot (and it’s a lot cheaper than my college tuition, I might add).
Me thinks he should change his Twitter profile picture back to the one which more accurately portray how he spends his time:
Chuck O’Neal even stooped so low as to publish personal e-mails from my husband and me on his blog in an attempt to show what a good pastor he was to us then. He apparently missed the memo on pastoral confidentiality when he went to seminary. Oh wait, did he go to seminary? He did get a degree in psychology (he’s against psychology, that’s a whole other story). He would have learned about confidentiality in his psychology classes there, but Chuck O’Neal has always been “special” – the rules don’t apply to him.
The personal e-mails he posted publicly mean nothing. The e-mails were sent to O’Neal a year before we left his church, while our daughter was in an unhealthy relationship. We were drinking the KoolAid then, and so obviously we would have been supportive of Chuck.
Chuck and Tonya have gone over the top this week. If you’d like to take a look, just scroll through Chuck’s Twitter feed. You will see that he is now going after my friends, R. L. Stollar (of Homeschoolers Anonymous), and Dee Parsons (The Wartburg Watch).
He also goes after people who follow me on Twitter, using their tweets in his blog against me (as if I have any control over those who follow me on Twitter).
So anyway, that’s what’s been going on with me lately. Sometimes I lose my writing mojo when I’m reminded of yucky times where my family was harmed. Sometimes I have to just roll with it and cut myself some blogging slack. That’s what I’ve done. Thank you for your patience and for your support.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Reblogged this on Speakingtruthinlove's Blog.
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Wow, I’m sorry you were in that deep. I can’t imagine what that must be doing to you and your children getting triggered again.
My parents spanked us for quite a long time (teenage years) – not into adulthood, but I’m not sure if it was because of their sensibilities to their children, or because we wised up to what would bring on discipline and avoided confrontation. It certainly wasn’t because our pastor wouldn’t have approved of the discipline.
You know, remembering my childhood years, I’m thankful for the “luck of the draw” when it comes to who our parents were. It could have been so much worse.
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Julie Anne,
Thanks for your blog being a safe harbor to me and others after spiritually abusive church experiences from the likes of spiritually abusive pastors/elders. You, Dee and Deb at The Wartburg Watch, and several other bloggers have helped save our sanity and our faith!
We completely understand when you need a break from writing tough stories and we expect you to take care of yourself. Plus, we get to discuss a current story in more depth.
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I didn’t spank the older kids, but I also didn’t step in and stop it. In those days, if I had stepped in, it wouldn’t have mattered. Boy, those were some dark times. I just could never get any peace in my soul – so much confusion.
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Dealing with Tonya and CON sounds like such a time suck. They sound a little unhinged in their tweets. Perhaps more than a little.
I hear you, JA. While my kids weren’t old enough yet for an adult spanking, my husband and I drank the kool-aid to administer Pearl-style child “training.” It still makes me sick. It may not be illegal to do that to a child (can you believe that!?), but, once that “child” reaches the age of majority it becomes assault. Maybe some of the spanked adults from CON’s church need to file a lawsuit against him. He did teach people to break the law.
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I was wondering about that – – can you file legal charges against someone who tells you to break the law?
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There is no rest for the wicked, and clearly Chuck O’Neal get no rest — he’s obsessed with taking revenge on you and the others who expose his foolishness.
In Australia ‘Chuck’ is not a shortened form of a male name, it is an coarse word for ‘vomit’.
A bloke who has had too many beers might say to his mates, ” I’m going to chuck.”
So I say, “Chuck O’Neal makes me wanna chuck.”
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Julie Anne, you must be pissing him off. That’s a good thing! 🙂 What discerning readers realize is the shift in the power dynamics and he’s on the losing end. The fact that he’s squirming is an acknowledgment that he KNOWS he’s done something wrong. If he knew anything about psychology, he’d recognize it.
Of course, the fact that he’s being reminded of his evil deeds by a woman must be really sticking in his craw.
You are a champion Julie Anne. Never forget it.
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I don’t know. But if CON was harassing me the way he’s been harassing you I’d be consulting with a lawyer muy pronto.
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What’s so dangerous about what CON is doing is that his advocating interpersonal family advice, including against grown children, IS domestic violence under the Oregon statute and Oregon has a mandatory arrest policy. There are very strict penalties in DV cases. Here is more information from an Oregon criminal defense attorney’s blog (he used to be a prosecutor).
http://www.portlandcriminallawfirm.com/criminal-defense/domestic-violence-defense/
An Oregon attorney would have to advise if there is are Oregon laws where CON could be sued civilly for misleading congregants to commit criminal acts.
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And what would be a good “biblical”defense against adult-children spanking? Obviously there’s no direct command against it, and you have the tenuous “thou shalt beat him with a rod” proverbs.
Certainly though, like I said on Twitter – if your country’s laws prohibit physical discipline of an adult, I’d say you need to submit. You really want to go to jail over spanking your adult daughter? That’s where you want to make your Christian stand? Insane.
This is besides the fact that I think Chuck is a complete abusive nutcase for commanding folks with “biblical authority” to physically discipline their adult children. There’s no way in hell you’re convincing me that’s good, godly, normal, biblical practice.
I just think it’s important in fighting against this stuff to use their own scriptural interpretation methods against them where possible – if not for the leaders like Chuck, then for their watching followers.
These guys don’t care for or trust the state authority anyway, so appeals to laws will be fruitless. It’s a point of pride to them to be “against” the evil state.
This stuff really frustrates me. How can they not see??? You don’t need an effing Bible verse for everything! You don’t! I don’t have to tack a darned bible verse onto the end of everything I say to make it somehow valid! Where is the Spirit in their lives, gently guiding to all truth? I know where He is in some of them, because I was there too. He was quenched. Ignored.
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My mother once beat my 18-year old brother. It is one of my most horrifying childhood memories. Listening to him crying and begging her not to go through with it, and her ordering him to bend over, this 6-foot tall football player up against my 5’2″ mother. His sin was throwing a football inside the church school we attended for a year (an ACE school, so everyone in one room together). They had, and still have, a very twisted and enmeshed relationship. I wonder sometimes if the reason he has been engaged three times but never married is a result of the dysfunction between the two, never more starkly illustrated than by this beating incident.
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My gosh, graykitty, that is so sad. I can’t help tearing up at some of these stories. It is triggering.
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@graykitty,
Wow, what a sad story about your mom beating your 18 year old brother. If you and he are close, perhaps you could recommend to him that he see a professional therapist (a good one) to deal with those issues.
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@graykitty
First, I am so sorry you grew up with that. Second, another commenter here, maybe Cindy Kunsman or Marsha, has talked about the sexual stimulation effects of spanking. I think that’s awful enough for a young child. I can only imagine how it affects someone past puberty.
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JA,
I posted the legal question on avvo dot com and I asked an Oregon attorney to respond to if an OR pastor can face a civil lawsuit or criminal charges for telling parents to commit acts of domestic violence against grown children. I will summarize and post any responses that I get.
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It appears that Mr. O’Neal, and quite possibly his wife, have profound mental health issues. It is my hope that their “counsel” is exposed quickly and publicly for the abomination that it is.. What in the world is the matter with them? A gospel of pain and shame is not the gospel at all.
Rose Huskey
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Julie Anne – With as much as you have going on, you should feel free to take writing breaks when you need to.
This week’s news concerning that family is heart breaking. The power and control used over these two young men is horrible.
So everyone who comments on here is aware, CON is not above taking screen shots of your comments and using them in his spew fest. I found a comment that I made in one of his posts about how a priest comforted my dying grandmother and how it was the most “church” that I had seen in a long time. Did CON use that to offer condolences to me and my family while we dealt with a dying family member? No, he used it to further his agenda against Julie Anne and provide “evidence” that she (and we) support Roman Catholicism.
CON lives up to his initials – Controlling Obnoxious Narcissist.
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Thank you for the kind words. I take no pleasure in posting them here, and I apologize if I triggered anyone. I only hope that people/parents who practice this kind of child-rearing may read about my experience and re-think their position.
“the sexual stimulation effects of spanking”
BTDT, yes, I can understand that. It’s very real.
Velour, sadly, I do not have a relationship with my brother, or any of my family for that matter. He could certainly benefit from a good therapist. I know the 8+ years I spent in therapy is the only reason I am alive today.
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Well Kathi, we must be doing something right! My former abusive, authoritarian NeoCal pastor, the one who excommunicated and ordered to be shunned one of (the well-known) Pastor John MacArthur’s long-time personal friends a godly doctor who had been married for 45+ years (the doctor dissented in private with the pastor and based it on the Scriptures), like CON had an incredible dislike for the Roman Catholic Church. Funny thing is these guys set up their churches EXACTLY like the Roman Catholic Church, with the senior pastor crowned as pope, the associate pastors/elders crowned as cardinals, and the power of the keys to excommunicate and shun any godly person who dissents.
These NeoCal pastors are all a bunch of insufferable brats.
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My friend, Ryan Stollar reminded me on Twitter that Voddie Baucham also endorses spanking adult children. It’s actually in the book that Voddie Baucham sent me a while back when he was trying to convince me that he doesn’t endorse abuse to children after I did a post on spanking little ones. Here is the tweet I just sent out and a picture of the words from the book.
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Well, now I’m confused. Check out the footnote that goes along with the text. Who does this kind of footnote? https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/655544023843639296
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Someone who is entirely clueless about how his comments and writing look to “those without” and/or the legal ramifications of his teaching.
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JA, that footnote gives Baucham plausible deniability. The law is VERY clear on what age a parent cannot legally spank. There’s nothing tongue-in-cheek about it.
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I have a meme for that, but I can’t post it here. 🙂
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Other than Victorian “Erotic Flagellation” porn?
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@BTDT:
“Sexual stimulation effects” on the Spanker or the Spankee?
There’s a reason why everyone I’ve known outside the church who’s heard of “Christian Domestic Disciplne(TM)” has reacted with “Now there’s a guy who’s into BDSM but won’t admit to it.”
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Please send it to me, BTDT.
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Journalist Max Kutner did a decent job bringing together some information on spiritual abuse for this case in a Newsweek article yesterday. See http://www.newsweek.com/word-life-church-beating-abuse-384339 . He refers to Ron Enroth’s book in the article and it may be read for free in PDF format at http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf
Julie Anne, sorry to hear of your triggers.
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Thanks, Lois. I appreciate the links. I’m fine. 🙂
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Just curious. Does anybody know how much older Chuck is than his wife? Does anybody know how young she was when he first started courting her and/or when they married?
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Also, I wonder why Chuck is against psychology? Maybe he isn’t so much against it as he is afraid of it. Maybe he’s afraid of what his congregants might begin to understand about him if they began to understand a bit of psychology.
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@Lois & other folks,
Thanks for posting the link, Lois, to Dr. Ronald Enroth’s classic book on spiritual abuse. There is also a second book, Recovering from Churches That Abuse,
that Dr. Enroth has made available for free. I have put the links for both books in the Off-Topic Discussion tab, at the top of the page here.
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Julie Anne,
Here is the Texas law on Domestic Violence. Conservative pastor Voddie Baucham is legally incorrect for his state, Texas (and others too), to tell parents to hit their adult children. This is domestic violence, a crime, and the parent can be arrested and prosecuted.
http://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-domestic-violence-laws.html
and from a Texas criminal defense attorney’s website:
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/texas-domestic-violence-laws.htm
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Julie Anne & Kathi,
I was at a Bluegrass concert tonight. And listening to all of that Appalachian music, including Gospel songs, made me think about Rev. Billy Graham and his (late) wife Ruth.
I thought about the hateful conduct of all of these insufferable NeoCals that we have heard about: “Would the Rev. Billy Graham or would Mrs. Graham EVER do this? If the answer is ‘No’ than these fools shouldn’t be doing it either!”
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Chuck O’Neal is a laugh and a half. What a fundamentalist baboon-chimp.
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Barf O’Neal
Puke O’Neal
Vomit O’Neal
Upchuck O’Neal
Those all work nicely. The last one is the most accurate.
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Look, the guy and his young, benighted wife will one day face a righteous God who very obviously despised bullies and abusers who did such as that in his name. This is obvious based on what Jesus did when he came and lived among us. Be thankful that you are not Chuck, be thankful that he now has no power over you, except what you give him, be thankful that his rages just go out into cyberspace and cannot directly affect you or your children. Mainly, be thankful that you are not him, tasting the bile that he must taste every day. Pathetic.
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Gary, CON believes like John MacArthur. They don’t really believe people can have mental health issues, but only sin issues. They are strongly against any mental health care, psych drugs, etc.
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Gary, I’m pretty sure they are very close in age. They were pretty young when they married and had their first baby very quickly.
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“CON believes like John MacArthur. They don’t really believe people can have mental health issues, but only sin issues. They are strongly against any mental health care, psych drugs, etc.” – Julie Anne
I think that explains why at my former NeoCal church, the senior pastor was a graduate of MacArthur’s seminary, the pastors/elders had ZERO training about serious issues, rendered opinions just the same, got it wrong, wrong, wrong, and did much damage.
They had:
*Biblical Counseling sessions with church members to try to “reconcile” church members with an older woman church member who caused many problems.
The older woman is an alcoholic and should have been seen by a physician and been referred to a professional substance abuse program. But the pastors/elders were incompetent to address her alcoholism.
*The pastors/elders repeatedly blamed me, others, and family members of another woman church member who accused us all of “lying” and that “the truth about us would come out.” The woman has a genetically inherited brain problem (dyslexia) and short-term memory problems and working memory problems that go with it. She refused to get good medical help that is available and that can teach her skills to deal with this. The pastors/elders told the rest of us what horrible people we were and we needed to “apologize”. OK, she can’t remember things that occurred because of a brain malfunction and we weren’t “lying”.
*Sexual Abuse Cases: Mishandled.
*Domestic Violence Cases: Wives told to submit. Mishandled.
On and on.
Biblical Counseling, not balanced out with other forms of professional diagnosis and treatment, should be called what it is in many case: Malpractice.
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JA, I’m tempted to ask if you mean they had their first baby VERY quickly? But I won’t do that.
As to mental health issues really being sin issues, well, I’ve heard stories of people who were delusionally into health and wealth theology walking around claiming their obviously broken arms weren’t broken.
I do agree that personality disorders, such as narcissism and sociopathy, involve sin issues. Narcissists and sociopaths need to recognize and deal with their sin issues. Where one refuses to acknowledge and deal with their sinful narcissistic/sociopathic tendencies, their personality disorder has matured into a full-blown character disorder.
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Julie Anne, Kathi, and other Folks,
An Oregon attorney just posted this response to my question on avvo dot com if an Oregon pastor can be held civilly or criminally liable for telling church members to spank their adult children.
“It’s important at the outset to distinguish between minor children and adults here. Oregon law does not prohibit parents from spanking their own minor children, but it does prohibit any physical discipline that causes the child any lasting harm or physical injury. Causing any physical injury to a child is by definition child abuse under ORS 419B.005, and it also can be prosecuted as assault. Parents’ limited right to discipline their minor children does not extend to their adult children. Any attempt to “spank” an adult – whether they’re your child or not – if not consented, would be chargeable as harassment under ORS 166.065 (it would be “offensive physical contact,” even if it doesn’t cause lasting harm – it could also be charged as a more serious crime, if it did cause lasting injury).
So much for the parents themselves; the question was about the pastor. In general, it is not illegal to advocate illegal conduct in a purely theoretical way. However, a person can be charged with inciting a crime if they are reasonably certain that their inducement will cause illegal acts. So the question is, how certain is this pastor that people are going to take this “advice”? What power does he have to ensure that people do it? I would tend to doubt that he can enforce his suggestions over his flock, but that may just be because they’re so absurd.
It is important to note that criminal charges can only be brought by the District Attorney of a county or a state or federal prosecutor. Private persons can report crimes to the police, or, if the police aren’t interested, to the prosecutor themselves; but that is all they can do. Private citizens have no authority to initiate criminal proceedings themselves. Contrary to whatever you might have heard, there is no such thing as “pressing charges.” [Note: I didn’t post anything about “pressing charges” as I know that this is the job of the district attorney. Many people have seen that on tv and do assume that’s how it is handled. – Velour]
Private citizens can, however, file civil lawsuits against others who have injured them. A civil lawsuit doesn’t result in jail for the defendant, if they’re found to have committed wrongdoing; it results in a money award, compelling them to pay the person suing them for the injury they caused. In general, you cannot recover more in such a suit than the amount you lost as a result of the injury. So lawsuits over offensive behavior that doesn’t cause lasting harm, are unlikely to be productive.”
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I’m sorry to see you going through this- I’m thankful for you speaking out. Chuck, by trying to cover up his abusiveness and attack to discredit has only drawn attention to the extent of his foolishness. It’s sad what he is doing to himself and the church. Hoping for people to be set free from his kind of toxic faith and come to know Jesus. Hugs too to you and yours.
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JA, You are one tough cookie! Self-care is a good thing, so take time off when you need it! CON, just like any dictator (think Stalin, Hitler etc), gains his power and support by creating a common “enemy” to rally his followers around. This allows him to play the great protector to his flock. Create a straw man or woman as a threat and watch how the gullible gather under the great leader for cover.
If it wasn’t you, it would be someone else. Why? Because men like CON need to play the persecution card to to justify their behavior. JA, you are brave, because in leaving CON’s community you have had to face the toxic beliefs and behaviors that you once supported. You do not try to justify your past, but allow yourself to face it and mourn the parts that were hurtful. What a great example for anyone who has participated in a community that they later realize is toxic. A lot of difficult emotions do occur during the healing process, but with time and hard work you become the authentic woman that God has created.
Thank for sharing your journey with us. We can all learn and grow by being truthful to ourselves and others. Sadly, many in CON’s flock will never break away from his power trip and discover the true agape love of God.
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I previously posted about spanking and later sexual dysfunction in children who are spanked. Having the opposite sex parent spank or hit a child on his/her bare bottom followed by forced hugs and professions of love is a recipe for disaster.
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Here are two heartbreaking survivor accounts from people who were “Biblically’ spanked as a child:
http://nospank.net/fenimore.htm
http://dulcefamily.blogspot.com/2011/06/another-letter-to-another-pastor-on.html
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Thanks, Marsha, for posting those two links about spanking. Very informative and helpful.
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“Any attempt to “spank” an adult – whether they’re your child or not – if not consented, would be chargeable as harassment under ORS 166.065…”
The “if not consented” part bothers me. If an adult child consents to a spanking, that is – in itself – very sick family dynamics. It is not a sign that the spanking was okay. (I feel pretty much the same about “consent” in BDSM. What happens in BDSM is terrible interpersonal dynamics – the mere fact that someone allows or even ask for the beatings and insulting slurs does not make it okay. It is certainly not enthusiastic, ongoing, “yes means yes” consent.)
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As I follow Julie Anne on twitter I made a comment on how bonkers the Chuck & Tonya posts were. They searched my Twitter feed and twisted a joke, as they do. Since that time I have been having a lot of fun lampooning the ‘big bullying bombastic buffoon’ at #ChuckyONeal . Lots of blocked tweets by their stooges, however, I still get to comment directly. 🙂
There is a delusional aspect to both Chucky ONeal & Wilson regarding their world view. They are both unaccountable, unteachable, and highly resistant to any input from any source outside their world view. They twist the words of Judges, The Abused, Witnesses, Boz, Wartburg, Julie Anne and many others, irrespective of the level of engagement. To live in this world must be terrifying for them and their followers – God help them all.
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JA, I am curious. Early in the post you referenced CON’s multi-hour ‘counseling’ sessions with teens. I have two questions:
1. Was there ever a responsible adult (third party, which could include a parent) present for the counseling of minors?
2. Did he have extended counseling sessions with teenage girls alone?
Assuming everything else was benign (which I doubt it was), CON opened himself up to some serious accusations of misconduct, including statutory rape. For someone who seems to pride himself on Biblical understanding, he is severely lacking in wisdom.
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Burwell,
He would usually have an elder with him or maybe a parent. He’d never counsel with any female alone.
He went overboard on being in the presence of another female by himself, including female reporters.
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Thank you, JA. While I am relieved that he would have a third party present, I can safely assume they were not disinterested; rather, they were compromised through blind adherence to the BGBC creed – Thou shalt have no authority other than CON, etc.
Sadly, I am not surprised to read your second statement. In this he is not alone (pardon the pun). Not knowing CON personally or anyone directly affiliated with BGBC, I would wager that the prettier (using society’s definition) the female, the greater his efforts would become to be in their presence.
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ACK, that should read NOT being in the presence. He was very strict about any man being alone with a woman. If a woman came to the church for help, he’d find a women to talk with her.
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Thank you for the clarification, JA. Duly noted and no worries.
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Burwell – He declined to meet with a female reporter in person from the Willamette Week because it would have only been the two of them together. I fully understand wanting to maintain a presence of accountability, but the fact that CON can’t meet with a person of the opposite sex in a professional manner in a public place is absurd. What is he afraid that he might lose control and come on to her? Or, what if she came on to him? To me, this shows that he does not have the ability to respect a woman as a person, he can only see a woman as a sex object.
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I can only imagine what yesterday’s sermon may have sounded like.
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@Velour:
A myriad of Little Joffreys on their own Iron Thrones by Divine Right.
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@Kathi:
Isn’t that the same rationale behind the burqa and the locked harem?
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Kathi – you said: “the fact that CON can’t meet with a person of the opposite sex in a professional manner in a public place is absurd.”
Years ago my wife and I attended a church-based marriage retreat. We missed the opening session due to my work schedule and our travel time, so we arrived late in the discussion (I mention this because I do not know the specific question that prompted the answer I heard). This very topic was what we walked in on: the retreat leaders were telling a young man, and his wife, that the “no alone conversation” rule applied to every interaction. The young men then said that he was an assistant US attorney and his legal assistant/secretary was a female…how could he possibly work with her without ever having an alone conversation. I don’t remember the specifics, but the retreat leader stuck to his guns. (I do remember the attorney verbalizing his displeasure with the response to me later.)
As I stated above, I have never met CON and to my knowledge have never interacted with him, but he is not alone in this way of thinking on the interactions between males and females. What is the root of this view? I have no idea. Personally, I believe the extreme workplace application has partially arisen out of the complimentarian view of women, that “Eve’s desire for her husband, that he would rule over her” means that women will always seek to gain dominance over men and thus all interaction should be avoided.
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I will add on to Burwell’s comment. I think CON could be charged under Oregon criminal law with “false imprisonment” as could any church member/elder for these long “counseling sessions” of young people against their wills, as sued civilly for same. Ditto for anyone at the church who joined CON in doing same.
http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/false-imprisonment.html
http://www.jennieclark.com/false-imprisonment.htm
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@Retha,
The Oregon attorney who answered by avvo dot com question about spanking (could an Oregon pastor be criminally prosecuted and civilly sued for telling church member parents to spank their adult children) was discussing a legal point about law when he wrote about something be consented to and he wasn’t addressing interpersonal dynamics. People can consent to all kinds of things and no crime occurred if lawful consent was given.
Examples:
* A person can’t be charged with trespass onto private property if the owner invited them on to the property (consented).
*A person can’t be charged with theft if an owner lent them a piece of property
(consented).
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“Assuming everything else was benign (which I doubt it was), CON opened himself up to some serious accusations of misconduct, including statutory rape. For someone who seems to pride himself on Biblical understanding, he is severely lacking in wisdom.” – Burwell
CON also opened himself up to charges such as false imprisonment.
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“As I follow Julie Anne on twitter I made a comment on how bonkers the Chuck & Tonya posts were. They searched my Twitter feed and twisted a joke, as they do.” – David
I just shake my head at Chuck & Tonya’s actions and say, “Can you imagine the Rev. Billy Graham and his wife Ruth Bell Graham behaving in such a disgraceful fashion?” Too bad the class-act of the Grahams is in such short supply these days in evangelical circles.
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Thank you, Ann. I forgot to respond to this. I have learned to let go of the guilt and take care of myself when I need to. This place is so encouraging for me, so thank you, all, for your understanding, grace, and support.
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Gary, the information I had remembered was confirmed. Chuck and Tonya got married very young – 17 yrs old. Their first baby was born a few months after their wedding. He then joined the Marine Corps. They are probably 42 now.
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The Christian cult I once was part of was into harsh discipline as well. Julie Anne, don’t beat yourself up over the past. You have now moved on and from all that I have read, it is evident that you have admitted that you were under CON’s spell and thought you were doing the right thing at the time. I say this because I witnessed (and was aware of) discipline that turned into abuse while in that cult.
TRIGGER WARNING
I worked in the nursery of this Christian cult and saw such cruelty, but was afraid to speak out for fear of being ostracized from the group. One little girl (two yrs. old) was disciplined by being denied her lunch. So she went without eating from early in the morning till dinner time – about 9 – 10 hrs. Another little boy, about 4 yrs. old, who was undergoing chemo for cancer, had been having bowel movements in his pants. After a couple of days, the director of the nursery made him stand in the corner the entire afternoon in his dirty underpants. When his mother came to pick him up, the little boy was still in his excrement. The director of the nursery told the mother she would not be responsible for potty training her son, and he would be punished in the same way again if he had another accident.
The worst incident of child abuse I witnessed was that of a young boy – 4 yrs. old – who came to a Bible study with his mother. The pastor/leader (sic) noticed this young boy and asked him to come forward. This was at the beginning of the Bible study. The little boy made a joke about this leader’s appearance – something about how funny his beard looked. The leader – who I’ll identify as S.T. – started chatting with this boy and it went on for about 5 minutes. Out of nowhere, S.T. grabbed the little boy and flung him over his legs (S.T. was sitting). S.T. had a large ruler and began smacking the boy for about 1-2 minutes. Then he stood him up and told the boy to apologize for his bad behavior. The little boy was shaking and crying and couldn’t even talk. Then S.T. grabbed him and flung him over his legs again and began spanking him for about 1 – 2 minutes. Again he stood the boy up and told him to apologize and even when the boy tried, it wasn’t good enough. So this dreadful ritual went on for about a half hour or more – spanking then insisting he apologize. Finally, the boy’s apology satisfied S.T. and he stopped the spanking. S.T. told everyone present at that meeting – there were about 60 people there – that we had a lesson in what real discipline looks like and that was our “Bible study.”
When I think of that episode of child abuse, and that I nor anyone else came to that little boy’s defense, I can honestly say I know what it is like to be under the spell of a cult leader. Not even the boy’s mother had the nerve to stand up to that leader and grab her son from him. When I came to my senses, I wondered how I could have been so deceived, so manipulated by such a devious man. Granted, I, and most everyone there, were quite young and impressionable. When I came to my senses after leaving that place, I went through such grief for not having defended little children. After I left, S.T.’s son ended up in the hospital with serious wounds due to being spanked by one of the members. S.T. was not charged because the member spanked S.T.’s son at his behest. And the member would not testify against S.T. being willing to be charged with the crime of child abuse himself.
I say all this because I truly do understand the toxic environment that justifies child abuse calling it discipline, all in the name of God. All I can say is: LORD HAVE MERCY!
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I see Boz doing great work!
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Indeed, Julie Anne. Rev. Billy Graham’s and Ruth Bell Graham’s grandson Boz does fine work for victims.
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It might be worth noting that Boz is a lawyer, not a preacher.
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Sorry, old friend. Even the diminishing view of these things in the rear-view mirror can surprise and hurt us survivors! Eyes front, moving ahead, mind the gap! 🙂
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Another spank happy “preacher” to add to the list of abusive, control freaks hooked on that power trip within the BDSM lifestyle. Acting out your kinky lust with adult children is sick and these idiots need to be defrocked.
The church needs a list to keep track of all these PERVERTS. Perhaps an internet list similar to the SEX OFFENDER LISTS maintained by the State Police.
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I’m with Scott. A bunch of perverts, the lot of them.
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There is a strange and subtle derailment that can happen to a Christian. A person comes to know the saving grace of Jesus Christ and begins living a new life through faith in Him. Then they have children. And somehow they forget where they have come from and what they have learned, and start thinking their job as parents is to prevent their children from sinning- as though somehow with enough effort they can raise their children to adulthood pure and unspotted from any sinful thought or action. This is not possible. It’s not scriptural. It’s not healthy for parent or child. What are they thinking? That maybe with enough willpower their child will make it through the minefield of life perfect and not need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? There is none righteous, no not one. Our children are human beings just as we are. The Christian life is not about us seeking perfection, it is about knowing Christ. I don’t know if I’m saying this very well. But we have gone before our children. We’ve found ourselves prone to failure and found the Lord is faithful and kind and forgiving. We are to be understanding and wise guides to our children as they learn the lessons of life that everyone must learn. Giving them the idea that the Christian life is about laws and rules and perfection is a lie. We know that “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” so why would we tie up heavy burdens and lay them on our childrens’ shoulders, when we ourselves cannot carry them?
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But for every Boz there’s a couple of Franklins.
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@scott:
My initial reaction when I saw the headline up top was the same as when I read about Christian Domestic Discipline(TM) on this & other blogs:
“PAPA SPANK!” (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean…)
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@GaryW:
Unwanted competition a la Elron Hubbard?
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I Want to Sincerly Thank You for Helping to Shed Light On This (I was Spanked More As an Adult Then As a Child And That Includes My Earliest Teens Before High School when I was Gold that Spanking as Regular Punishment would End, However it was ‘Decided’ that I May Get Spanked Under Certain Circumstances.
The Exception I Knew was My Dad told me when I was 10 when he said I would Bend Over as Opposed to Going Over His Knee but added that If he found Out I Smoked a Cigarette I Could Expect to Get my Pants Open And Pulled Down after I was Over His Lap. (He Really Hated Spanking me but When he Did it Was Safety Related ‘Rather Spank you And Cause Tempory Pain to Prevent Losing you Forever and Perventing You Going Through and Feel the Things you Would If you Got Grabbed where I Couldn’t Help cause You are NOT where We Agreed you and I Would BE..”
Point is He Said it Lightly but let me Know that He Would If he Could Take me Across His Lap he Would…. Well I Smoked for a Year before Telling my Mom by Lighting up During a Long Big All Night Fight and She Mentioned it to my Dad who onły said that on Saturday when he Picked me Up for the Weekend Visit that I Better be Ready to Face Up to His Dad’s Turn to Weigh in and He did Exactly as He Said with His Hand with my Boxers Up but Jeans at my Thighs on the Bench Seat of His Truck.
That Got my Mom Thinking and I Today am Waiting for my Former Step Dad but he was since I was 7 Gave me 80% of my Spankings and He Usually Used His Hand but at 6’2″ and 300+ former College Football Player and That Makes The Dozens of Swats Usually On My Bared Butt and Almost Always Also cross His Lap.
When I Got The Nerve to Try and Discuss it as a Young Adult… EVEN as a Teen I Was Treated like A Liar and Once the Boys Town Hotline Thought it was a Crank Call and Sent the Police which Was the Night I Got the 2″ Wide and Very Thick but Also Very Old cracked and Worn that Phil kępt Out as a Threat he Intended as Idle…. Thank You For Most Of All Giving me a Place to Vent This without Concerns of People calling me a Liar or Perverts Asking Sick Stuff Aroused.
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