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Public records from Florida courts show that former pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (CRPC), Tullian Tchividjian, has filed for dissolution of marriage from his wife, Kimberly, on August 20, 2015.
This filing comes only two months after Tchividjian released a public statement to the Washington Post:
“I resigned from my position at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church today due to ongoing marital issues. As many of you know, I returned from a trip a few months back and discovered that my wife was having an affair. Heartbroken and devastated, I informed our church leadership and requested a sabbatical to focus exclusively on my marriage and family. As her affair continued, we separated. Sadly and embarrassingly, I subsequently sought comfort in a friend and developed an inappropriate relationship myself. Last week I was approached by our church leaders and they asked me about my own affair. I admitted to it and it was decided that the best course of action would be for me to resign. Both my wife and I are heartbroken over our actions and we ask you to pray for us and our family that God would give us the grace we need to weather this heart wrenching storm. We are amazingly grateful for the team of men and women who are committed to walking this difficult path with us. Please pray for the healing of deep wounds and we kindly ask that you respect our privacy.”
Tullian’s wife, Kim, released her own statement to Washington Post on the same day, which underscored that all was not well with their marriage (bolding is mine):
“The statement reflected my husband’s opinions but not my own. Please respect the privacy of my family at this time, thank you. I do thank everyone for the outpouring of love for my family as well during this difficult time and we appreciate all the prayers and support we are receiving.”
Here are the public records of the filing:
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In October of 2013, Tullian Tchividjian’ book, One Way Love: Inexhaustible Grace for an Exhausted World was published. I found an excerpt from the book in this article, Marriage and One-Way Love:
A marriage flavored by one-way love eschews score-keeping at all costs. It is not a fifty-fifty proposition, where I scratch your back and then you scratch mine. A grace-centered marriage is one in which both partners give 100 percent of themselves. They give up their right to talk about rights. This means that a grace-centered marriage, in theory, is one where both parties are constantly apologizing to each other, asking for and granting forgiveness. No one is ever innocent in a grace-centered marriage. If original sin is as evenly distributed as the Bible claims it is, then both parties have some culpability. Every marriage is the union of two selfish people, fighting for their way, desperate to win. That’s why an apology so often feels like we are betraying ourselves. We would rather see a marriage fall apart than cede any ground in the “war of the roses.”
In April of 2015, he spoke at Concordia to seminary students. We know that he found out about his wife’s affair 3 months before he released his statement, so that means when he spoke at Concordia, her extra-marital affair was certainly on his mind. The talk may have coincided with his own infidelity because he said in his statement that he sought solace from a female friend after finding out about his wife’s affair, which resulted in his own extra-marital affair.
The beginning of his talk at Concordia was about the law and the gospel. He expressed how he believes many pastors have been teaching it wrong for years and harming people. At the end of the talk, around the 40-minute mark, he gives an illustration of what he views as a true gospel response as he describes his wayward eldest son. It was uncomfortable listening to him talk about his son, knowing what was currently going on at home. What would his kids feel about this talk, knowing their parents’ marriage was shattered? It was disturbing to hear him talk about sin in a light-hearted manner, especially in reference to his new grandson as “payback.”
June was when we heard about both affairs via the public statements, and that Tullian Tchividjian was stepping down at CRPC.
In July, Christianity Today reported that Tchividjian would be receiving week-long counseling from Paul Tripp:
The counselling reportedly started this week, and Tripp will be working closely with Tchividjian to evaluate the root causes of the affairs and seek personal healing. According to the source, Tchividjian has already repented his sins and is “seeking wise biblical counsel” to ensure a lasting positive change in his life. His wife Kim went with him for counselling as well.
August 11, Tchividjian was stripped of his minister’s credentials:
The South Florida Presbytery (SPF) of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) voted at its meeting on August 11, 2015 to depose Tullian Tchividjian from the ministry. The PCA Book of Church Order (BCO) says that, “Deposition is the degradation of an officer from his office.” That is, the minister has his ordination credentials removed so that he no longer can perform the duties of a minister of the Gospel. (The PCA’s South Florida Presbytery Deposes Tullian Tchividjian from Ministry).
August 20, only nine days after having his ordination credentials removed, Tullian Tchividjian filed for divorce from his wife of 21 years.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I see this guy as a total drug using bum that used conversation to Christ as a way to do a Madonna style reinvention of himself. He went on to ” trade on ” his grandfather’s reputation to build quite a lucrative career in the high paying “Jesus business” .
The problem is when you are bogus eventually you will be exposed. When your “faith” is just business it is worthless and not true faith. This guy threw his wife under the bus and blamed her for his adultery. That alone tells me NOT to believe a word the creep says. You don’t talk the Mrs. down to other people. That’s over the line and punky. The guy is a light weight wimp that can’t acknowledge he is the reason he is where he is right now.
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So sorry to hear this. Tullian was the only pastor who publicly spoke out ANYTHING against SGM during our lawsuit. He sorta-kinda walked back the strength of his statement a few days later because of his “tone”, which was disappointing to sex abuse survivors, however, I will always appreciate that he stood up and spoke the truth for victims, when no other public pastor did.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-blasts-sovereign-grace-ministries-handling-of-sex-abuse-scandal-prematurely-departs-the-gospel-coalition-120062/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-clarifies-why-he-apologized-following-gospel-coalition-row-121066/
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Maybe it’s true that his wife started an affair first and refused to abandon it when discovered. But I have a hard time believing it. I’d love to hear Kim’s side of things. Then again, it’s her choice whether to speak.
Counseling by Paul Tripp? Ugh. Tripp is a biblical counselor associated with the CCEF. I shudder to think what guidance Tullian received from him. Biblical counselors tend to have a low view of women.
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In my mind it doesn’t matter who did what first. This man was an ordained minister and responsible for the flock. If he cannot keep himself in check with the Spirit’s leading, he cannot help anyone else.
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right now all we have is one side, and that side has been caught in some questionable truths. at this point i have no trust or faith in tullian
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I’m sorry, but I think I missed the memo that went out saying that henceforth, Paul Tripp will now be the go-to guy for everything.
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“No one is ever innocent in a grace-centered marriage. If original sin is as evenly distributed as the Bible claims it is, then both parties have some culpability. Every marriage is the union of two selfish people, fighting for their way, desperate to win. That’s why an apology so often feels like we are betraying ourselves. We would rather see a marriage fall apart than cede any ground in the “war of the roses.”
What is original sin? We are all guilty for Adam’s sin while sucking on our binky’s? So that makes guilt for actual actions later as adults not that big of a deal cos we were all guilty at birth?
The teaching above from Tullian’s book is exactly what SGM taught concerning victims of molestation. Both the molester and the child are guilty because of “original sin”. Justice is impossible in that sort of thinking which is why I am so glad our legal system does not subscribe to this thinking. Although there are tons of problems concerning justice even with that thinking can you imagine if you were raped the judge saying that because you were born guilty, you are just as bad as the rapist?
Not every marriage is a union of two selfish people. Often it is one person wanting power and control over the other. But Nouthetic counselors convince the less selfish they really are AS selfish and the cycle continues. All sins are the same. Sin leveling.
This thinking/teaching can really get sicko. It often protects the one who is really the problem. Sociopaths and narcissists LOVE this doctrine.
Whether or not his wife had an affair, she is coming off as the more wise and mature one in public. He is coming off as a whiny baby who is fighting to keep his name brand in lights.
where is the “grace” in filing for divorce since they are both equally guilty? All this sin leveling and cheapened grace stuff sounds great in books and from the pulpits but does not work in real life. Sadly, it often ends up enabling even more abuse and worse.
The best anecdote to all of this poison in the Name of Jesus, is to stop following gurus.
.
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“I’m sorry, but I think I missed the memo that went out saying that henceforth, Paul Tripp will now be the go-to guy for everything.”
LOL!
And Carl Trueman seems to be the runner up
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There was no need for him to speak at Concordia. It did not sit right with me when I heard he was giving a lecture. i hope people don’t associate LCMS with him, or any other “evangelical”.
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Lydia concludes her spot on observations with, “The best anecdote to all of this poison in the Name of Jesus, is to stop following gurus.” Problem is, every church I am familiar with has a guru who regularly stands in front of an adoring crowd receiving honor and glory that belongs only to Jesus. How can any preacher who receives such regular adoration fail to fall, especially when the adoration is so regularly and prominently–not to mention unashamedly–given by other men’s wives?
Regarding Keith’s hope that people don’t associate TT with LCMS or any other “evangelical,” I really do associate the likes of Tullian Tchividjian with the Billy Graham flavor of evangelicalism. I begin to wonder if Graham didn’t preach a Gospel that is ultimately powerless to transform, powerless to communicate and effect the implanting of the new heart which is the promise of the new covenant.
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I’m very sad about this, but as has been stated, we do not have access to both sides nor even, in my view, the full story from Tullian himself. Divorce is a very painful process, and whoever did what or filed first, this is going to be a messy time. People will take sides and that will be very painful for both parties, whether they talk about it or not. I do not believe that Tullian or Kim’s views on grace or this or that could necessarily prevent or provoke any of this. I think maybe what we are going to see is whether the (particularly fundamentalist/evangelical) Christian community has learned anything about divorce. The fact is that the people who find themselves in celebrity leadership are still people, and I’m hoping the commentary will take that into account. I also don’t see Scripturally that God’s unconditional love means He has a relationship with people who don’t want a relationship with Him, so I do not think that it is fair to blast Tullian for hypocrisy any more than it is fair to judge Kim harshly if she has not been able to present her side publicly. My feeling is this is horrible and sad and it might be a time to step back and pray. Knowing only a little bit of what kids of high profile people go through, I can’t imagine what the family is facing right now.
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And this is why you never hear Divorce denounced as a Sin from the pulpit (like, say, Homosexuality).
Keeping Your Options Open(TM).
Never know when you might need that escape route yourself.
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Lydia00 said: The teaching above from Tullian’s book is exactly what SGM taught concerning victims of molestation. Both the molester and the child are guilty because of “original sin”. Justice is impossible in that sort of thinking which is why I am so glad our legal system does not subscribe to this thinking. Although there are tons of problems concerning justice even with that thinking can you imagine if you were raped the judge saying that because you were born guilty, you are just as bad as the rapist?
I get the idea (though I haven’t looked into it) that his brother Boz’ approach is different. Do I have the right impression?
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Well Sovereign Graceless monsters (SGM) had to justify oral copulation of a baby, rape , beatings & object sexual penetration of Christian School students by the principle , and a youth director that molests children. When you are sick psycopaths like that bald headed Freddy Krueger CJ look alike and Mark Mark Mullery , you have to come up with something. The victim is to blame makes a lot of sense to those engaged in sex crimes, abuse or cover up. They are all the same.
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“I get the idea (though I haven’t looked into it) that his brother Boz’ approach is different. Do I have the right impression?”
Yes. The area where I disagree with Boz is trying to save organizations like Bob Jones U and others where abuses and molestations are inbred and have been the norm for years The thinking is inbred and it seems to me they use use GRACE to save the money train. I am thinking it is best for everyone if they go out of the profitable “non profit “Jesus business.
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I feel sad for Tullian and Kim. Who but they can know the sins that all combined to form this disaster? Statistically we know that women are far less likely to cheat than men. So one wonders how starved this marriage was for love, companionship, and kindness.
One week of counseling? I don’t see that time frame mentioned in the quote, but that’s hardly enough to deal with anything greater than a hangnail.
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Oh, here’s the quote:
I’m sorry. That’s laughable. Those two probably need two years of therapy, from a good qualified Ph.D. (non-neuthetic) counselor, preferably not a Christian, so they aren’t able to manipulate and game the system.
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And Carl Trueman seems to be the runner up
Runner up? I thought he was the go to guy and was wondering how Tripp booted him out of first place! 🙂
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Every marriage is the union of two selfish people, fighting for their way, desperate to win. That’s why an apology so often feels like we are betraying ourselves. We would rather see a marriage fall apart than cede any ground in the “war of the roses.”
I don’t know how “every marriage is a war” doctrine does not set people up to fail. If this is what he really believed, it is probably also what he practiced at home. Frankly, this makes me sick and angry. And it isn’t true. There are many marriages that actually do look like Ecclesiastes 4, because that is the attitude of the people in those marriages. Marriage is not intrinsically hopeless, as I take it to be from this quote. Perhaps he goes on to ameliorate this?
Now I am wondering if he experienced the law of self fulfilling prophecy.
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Anonymous2, I listened to a podcast of Tullian’s where he talked about all of his traveling and speaking engagements. It doesn’t seem like he was home much. In order to have a relationship, you have to put time in it.
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Melody,
Your words are very wise. Thank-you for reminding us to pray for this hurting family, for only they and our LORD fully know what transpired within their marriage. May our LORD comfort them during this difficult time.
My flesh desires to beat them up with words, criticisms and condemnations too, but the Holy Spirit is convicting and stopping me from doing so. Praise God for His truths, for this is truly humbling.
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No one knows what happened in this marriage except Tullian and Kim. This is a private family issue. Tullian has been deposed. It is no longer a presbytery issue. It is not a matter of spiritual abuse for discussion on a blog. Pray for the family.
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No one knows what happened in this marriage except Tullian and Kim. This is a private family issue. Tullian has been deposed. It is no longer a presbytery issue. It is not a matter of spiritual abuse for discussion on a blog.
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Bull. Inasmuch as Mr. T simply cannot help himself and continues to publicly blog knowing thousands of followers are hanging on his words, holding himself out as an authority on spiritual matters, his actions and integrity in this matter are very much at issue. No one here on this blog has posted private details of anything, no one is posting bedroom talk or even really speculating on it.
I call bull.
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I strongly disagree. Have you ever talked with a church member whose pastor commits adultery? Especially when the “other woman” is a member of the church? It wreaks spiritual havoc on people. It causes so much pain.
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i agree with JA that it can have a negative effect on a congregation. It breaks the hearts of some, so it is at least spiritual negligence, if not abuse.
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Julie Anne, do you know if the other woman is a church member? No, you don’t. Yes, this will hurt the congregation of Coral Ridge Presbyterian. Could you let Coral Ridge deal with that? But you have no specific knowledge.
This is the first time on a blog of Facebook that I have thought the topic is gossip.
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I’m not sure if you read my earlier article, but I wrote that a very reliable source informed me that the other woman was a married church member.
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No, I have not read your earlier article. Did your reliable source say this woman wants her life discussed in the social media?
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The other woman’s name isn’t being used. She’s a private person who is connected to a public person with a huge platform and a worldwide following.
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No, my source did not discuss that. However, I will say that it’s something to consider when having a sexual affair with a very public man.
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Which means she’s now fair game? I hope this stays private.
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You won’t find her identity released here, Carmen S. I think it is important to know that this was not just an affair with a single woman outside the church, but a married woman within the church with children. Although an affair with anyone would be serious, I think the fact that both risked their families to fall into sin shows how far he was willing to go. Let’s not forget that he had been speaking, traveling and Tweeting the entire time. How can a pastor with his wide audience (both live at CRPC and online) have preached law, gospel, grace, forgiveness, love of Christ, knowing his actions could be breaking up two families?
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Those who are tempted to have an affair (I count myself among them) embrace denial and self-deception. No one goes into an affair saying, “I want to do this even though it will destroy my life.”
What stopped me from having an affair was the realization of all I would lose personally and professionally.
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“This is a private family issue.”
“This is the first time on a blog of Facebook that I have thought the topic is gossip.”
“Did your reliable source say this woman wants her life discussed in the social media?”
“Which means she’s now fair game? I hope this stays private.”
Sorry, Carmen S., but this comes across to me as a good bit of smug, self righteous, holier than thou, sanctimonious cant. Maybe you can intimidate to silence the weak willed who fear your disapproval, but you will not be able to silence those of us who have been burned by modern day evangelicalism. No, if those who would tell others how to live their lives cannot practice what they preach, we will call them out. We do not oppose these evangelical celebrities in the sense of wanting their personal destruction, but we have lost our faith in the emotionally and spiritually debilitating systems of thought and coercion of which they are the emblematic proponents–and we celebrate when our Lord sees fit to remove them from positions of power and influence.
Or maybe I speak only for myself. Either way, please back off. Have your say, by all means, but avoid the condescending tone.
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I’ve only read down so far in the original post (will read the rest in a few moments) and wanted to comment on this:
I know the folks at the other blog, about domestic abuse, are not too fond of the word “codependency” but as someone who has been overcoming from codependency herself after a life time of it (was socialized by my codependent mother to be this way), I can spot it in a nano-second…
And I think the domestic violence bloggers would take issue with Tullian’s claim that both parties are always to blame in each and every fight or ruckus.
Tullian wrote,
“No one is ever innocent in a grace-centered marriage.”
Sometimes they are, though. Women who are being verbally or physically abused by a husband are in fact innocent; they are not a party to the abuse.
Some of what Tullian is promoting above looks like codependency.
(And it also sounds similar to the victim blaming nonsense my brother picked up in Alcoholics Anonymous, which is also into this false belief that two parties are always to blame in every fight, you always “played a role” in your own abuse, is how AA puts it. AA does not recognize that people can and are sinned against and are totally innocent at times.)
Heck, I disagree with this view in other areas of life, not just marriage.
In friendships, jobs, etc., sometimes you are the totally innocent party who was wronged by someone else, and you bear ZERO culpability in the incident, contrary to what Tullian (and Alcoholics Anonymous) is saying.
Not all blame in skirmishes and disagreements are “50 / 50.”
Sometimes one party is truly 100% to blame for a fight or grievance and the other is innocent.
Regarding this remark by Tullian:
“Every marriage is the union of two selfish people, fighting for their way, desperate to win.”
No. Codependent people will never “fight for their way” or act in a selfish manner, and they are NOT “desperate to win.” They are the exact opposite to this.
And a heck of a lot of women, especially Christian ones, are encouraged by Bible teachers and churches to think that being codependent is “biblical womanhood.” They are socialized to not disagree, not to fight back, not be assertive, etc.
Codependents hate to be alone (i.e., not have friends, family; they don’t want to be lonely, they will do anything to hold on to a relationship, including allowing themselves to be used and abused.
Further, they hate to fight (verbal and physical) – they are afraid if they show anger, yell back, refuse to give in to the angry partner, that the partner will dump them. That is one of their greatest fears, being dumped or rejected.
Even in the book on Boundaries, the two Christian doctors who wrote it said it is very typical for a controller to marry a codependent (doormat) – so you will often see a “doormat” married to an abusive / controlling jerk, where the doormat partner never stands up for herself, never fights back.
The doctors counsel these doormats to start exerting their boundaries.
Doormat partners are desperate to keep the peace at all costs (even if it means allowing a partner or friend to mistreat the or take advantage of them), which means they are NOT “desperate to win.” Quite the opposite, actuallyl.
You should never “give up your rights to have rights” in any relationship, as Tullian is advising… it sounds so bible-y and pretty but can be dangerous.
You will lose boundaries if you do (if you give up your right to have rights) and will open yourself up to being used and abused or controlled by someone else (whether a spouse, boss, co-worker, neighbor, whomever).
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Scott said
Not to take the thread too far off topic, but I feel that way about Franklin Graham. I get the feeling that Franklin G is just cashing in on his father’s reputation.
My opinion of FG went even lower when I read somewhere that against his mother’s wishes, he had her buried at the Graham tourist trap thing. She had specifically told FG not to bury her there, she had wanted to be buried at some other location. But FG had his mother buried at the tourist trap.
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lydia00 totally agree with your post at AUGUST 24, 2015 @ 5:48 AM
I did mine a couple of posts above before reading yours. We hit on a lot of the same points.
Sometimes when something bad happens to you by another person, you are/were totally 100% innocent, didn’t deserve whatever it was, and the other person is in fact totally to blame.
I am so sick of Christian groups or Alcoholics Anonymous blaming victims, making all sin sound equal, etc. It is so unjust and perverse.
Sometimes people are sinned against and did not do anything to cause it or deserve it!!!!
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Re: Headless Unicorn Guy AUGUST 24, 2015 @ 9:28 AM
Or, some of them do preach loudly against divorce but later soften their stance on divorce because they get divorced (see Charles Stanley, preacher in Atlantic with weekly TV show), or,
They preach loudly from the pulpit about how awful divorce is, how it is eroding American culture, but never mentioning they themselves are divorced (see John Hagee, over weight preacher San Antonio, has weekly TV show).
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“Atlanic” above should be “Atlanta Georgia”
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Barnabasintraining said,
I don’t know how “every marriage is a war” doctrine does not set people up to fail. If this is what he really believed, it is probably also what he practiced at home.
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It kind of reminds me of the other Christian assumption that all men are sexual horn dogs who can barely control their urges, while married women are cold fish who have no interest in sex at all.
These types of unfounded assumptions set people up for unnecessary problems and with failure.
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Carmen S. said,
No one knows what happened in this marriage except Tullian and Kim. This is a private family issue. Tullian has been deposed. It is no longer a presbytery issue. It is not a matter of spiritual abuse for discussion on a blog. Pray for the family.
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Ruh Roh. I’m discussing the heck of it anyhow.
Personally, I think it’s fair to discuss in so far as it pertains to the state of Christianity in America today, how most churches treat divorced people, how so many pew potatoes give sinning preachers an easy pass, etc.
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Carmen S.
AUGUST 24, 2015 @ 3:12 PM
Julie Anne, do you know if the other woman is a church member? No, you don’t. Yes, this will hurt the congregation of Coral Ridge Presbyterian. Could you let Coral Ridge deal with that? But you have no specific knowledge.
This is the first time on a blog of Facebook that I have thought the topic is gossip.
———————-
But Tullian is running around discussing all this stuff on his Twitter and in interviews, Christianity Today is yakking about it.
I don’t see how it’s wrong for JA to discuss it on her blog when it’s being talked about by Tullian and on mainstream publications.
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Reblogged this on THE STENCH OF DISCOVERY! and commented:
The Cancer of Self-Deception
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I read this morning that Anna’s brother is trying to get her and the kids to go to stay with him until Josh has gone through some form of therapy or maybe permanently. He is openly calling Josh to task for not being repentant, just caught.
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Martin Luther, Religious Reformer (1483-1546) A church denomination bears the name of this man, a man-made religion called Lutheran:
He penned, “Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children.”
Abusive and condescending statements such as these have resonated from the religious idols we have placed, riding in their own glory, atop of the golden calf. We have replaced Jesus and His Teachings with vain words and philosophies of men and women who have twisted Scriptures to accommodate their own sinful lifestyles. And while riding the golden calf of idolatry, we the people, have not read and understood the Scriptures for ourselves allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and teach us individually, for in part, it is far easier to sit under someone else’s teachings allowing them to indoctrinate us with their agendas.
When a woman sins, oh, the world shouts out “You are a wretched sinner, fall on your face and weep and repent, repent, repent.” And make sure the woman is in the presence of the hireling pastor, yes men and women leadership who adore the pastor, and in front of the assembly so as to make her an example of the public disciplining and chastising process.
And when a man sins, especially the pastor; since the woman is the lesser according to most religious icons throughout the ages, it should be understood that the woman is to blame for his sins as well. The woman is the scapegoat for the man.
I have literally witnessed in smaller churches, that women are to blame, because as the words of one charismatic/Pentecostal preacher come to mind, “women have a jezebel spirit” (yes, I heard this phrase with my own ears during a narcissistic sermon). This false teacher was eliminated from his pastoral duties in the weeks following, due to his own sexual sins that were kept in secret or denial for years.
No longer do I trust, hope, and rest my faith in pastors, leadership, or pew sitters who desire to lord it over me, for they are legion…….my faith is in Jesus, the Christ alone and it is He that we will all answer to one day. And this is truly a humbling process in desiring Jesus over any man or woman for His mercy and grace, far outweighs the religious zealots of our day. There is no comparison.
Martin Luther’s penned writings, “The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes.”
I was a Lutheran……no longer, PTL…..is this instruction I desire to teach our children?
In prayer.
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Daisy, another problem I personally have with the “every marriage is a war” doctrine is I was present to hear a sermon, as in from the pulpit with all of its implied authority to the congregation of a whole church, where this very assertion was made to defend the practice of throwing out an abuse victim who chose to divorce her abuser. Red Meat to any abusers present. Total justification of the abuser’s mentality because abusers do see their marriages as war and their victim has no right to leave that war because God wants them in that war til death do us part — now formally confirmed as church orthodoxy.
There is so much not good from this it is hard to plumb the depths of it. And I maintain it is TOTALLY the opposite of what God means when He says “marriage.”
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Katy,
Thank you for bringing up those quotes from Martin Luther. It caused me to do a search and I found the 38 most ridiculous quotes of ML. It was thoroughly repulsive, but I now know that I don’t want to ever hear ML quoted in a sermon again even if it is a good quote. The man was totally warped.
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You know Brenda,
I was raised up in the Lutheran church religion….infant baptism and confirmation classes, so called ‘saved’, and person, meanwhile the fruit of our lives showed nothing for the ways of our LORD. None of us read our Bibles, nor were we encouraged to do so by church leadership, for our doctrines rested on the shoulders of the pastor and our “Lutheran” religion.
What would happen in the Lutheran churches across America if the Lutheran pastors quoted the penned writings of Martin Luther, the so called reformer, in their sermons for men and women, husbands and wives, and their children to hear. Would Luther’s quotes be received with mighty shouts of “Alleluias and Amens?” Would everyone rush out and purchase their favorite Martin Luther books, and pay for movie tickets, popcorn and pop, to see their favorite movie made about Martin Luther (confession time to the Body of Christ here…..I did pay big bucks to see that movie made about Martin Luther when I placed this man in the saddle on that golden calf……and now after my research, I stand ashamed of myself before all here), or would anyone truly desire to follow a religion named after a man?
The more I mature in my faith in Christ, the more I am puzzled why denominations are named after men. What ever happened to Christianity as defined by the New Testament?
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Katy, there are a lot of good Lutheran people out there who either have not read Luther or who make excuses for him. I am with you concerning the the truth. You should read what he said about Jews and the peasants. But always remember he claimed “reason is a whore”. And there you have it.
BTW: William Shirer in his book, The Rise of the Third Reich”, tracks the party’s use of Luther to bring the Lutheran Church in line with the State.
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“Sorry, Carmen S., but this comes across to me as a good bit of smug, self righteous, holier than thou, sanctimonious cant. Maybe you can intimidate to silence the weak willed who fear your disapproval, but you will not be able to silence those of us who have been burned by modern day evangelicalism.”
Simple enough. Just imply it is a sin and use shaming/censoring. The goal is to paint those discussing the situation as worse sinners. Most Christians will try to defend themselves. I say, don’t bother. That is what they want. It is often about protecting a guru or movement.
Negative truths will always make us uncomfortable. How we deal with them is another matter.
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Thanks Lydia! Actually, not to discount what you have said here for I appreciate the resources of others, including yourself…..in my research concerning the Holocaust (the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., spoke volumes to my spirit/soul), Martin Luther’s penned writings, which we must realize came from the depths of his heart, were among the resources used to understand how a nation could follow the ‘herd mentality’ in eliminating Jews/Christians/and those classified as unhuman.
If indeed, ‘reason is a whore,’ then by their definition, “I would be labeled a whore.” A title I shall humbly wear……maybe I could design a fashion line by that name, smile.
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Katy,
I have never been to a Lutheran church so I know little about their teachings, but this man is often quoted along with John Piper and others that I have equal disdain for at the nondenominational church that I attend. I don’t understand with all of the good stuff in the Bible there is a need for quoting anything else. It should stand on its own merit.
Lydia, this morning I read the quotes of ML about the peasants. It turned my stomach that this man was a beloved leader and that anyone would hang on his words.
Better to be a whore of reason than speaking evil from the depths of your heart.
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You guys might also find it interesting that his wife, former nun Katherine von Bora, ran their business, a brewery, so they could manage financially. He was writing and preaching. Makes his views on women even more interesting, huh?
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Brenda R. and Lydia,
Good words and an encouragement in my faith in Jesus! WOW! Now I can come and go with an uplifted heart throughout the LORD’s day here.
Salt and light speaks truth on this public forum! God bless you both Brenda R. and Lydia. I love you both as sisters in Christ.
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Ok, now I’m really confused. Some how I don’t see ministry and brewery going together for one. Not that I fault anyone for having a beer. I personally don’t have a taste for alcohol. Isn’t the wife suppose to be at home and not running a business of any kind.
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Well, maybe Tullian can get credentials from the CREC or the CPC? He’d fit right in. It worked for RC, Jr.
http://gustavofrederico.blogspot.com/2008/05/rc-sproul-jr-announces-beer-church.html
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TT doesn’t seem to be the RC2 type. I haven’t heard of any domineering spiritually abusive behavior like RC2 used/uses.
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Some women have home businesses (scrapbooking, essential oils, Pampered Chef, blogging w/advertisers, etc) and that seems to be okay with the Patriarchy crowd (at least my experience with it).
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I stand corrected. But these are not usually big money makers and there generally are no men at any of these types of gatherings. So Patriarchic men are not offended?
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I don’t think they can be offended. Looks at Proverbs 31.
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Didn’t todays Patriarch’s take that chapter out of Proverbs? Doesn’t it give her too much importance and esteem? I’m not wanting to be argumentative, but trying to understand.
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Brenda, my experience with Patriarchy is that Patriarchs can instill whatever rules they want, so I have no doubt that you have seen this just as I have seen other expressions of it. Patriarchs will back up any man, regardless of how his household is run. The default is to defend the Patriarch, never the wife.
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To the anti-Lutherans: please be advised that the writings of Luther are not the doctrine of the Lutheran Church, although some of his writings are included, e.g. the Small catechism.
I could slam Baptists, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, RCC or any other denomination on here, but I choose not to do so. Actually, I don’t really want to.
I cannot speak for other Lutherans, but I don’t care when other denominations say we are not Christians. That decision is made by God, not Billy Graham, Doug Phillips, Joyce Meyer, the Pope or commenters on a blog.
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I had forgotten that there was a fair amount of anti-Lutheran sentiment here. May I suggest the book “The Fabricated Luther’ bu Uwe-Siemon Netto for the truth about Lutherans and Nazism. As regards what Lutherans actually believe, one could refer to the LCMS and WELS websites (Old Lutheran belief) or ELCA (liberal).
Anyway, this post was about Tchividjian who is not Lutheran.
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No, Tullian Tchividjian is not Lutheran. Neither, to my recollection, are any of the abusive churches and pastors whose predations have been chronicled and called to account on this blog. Do I recall a blog article here by a then-recently-ordained female Lutheran minister, an article that described some rather impressive steps being taken by at least one Lutheran synod (is that the term they use?) to weed out immature, psychologically disqualified and potentially abusive pastoral candidates? Then, too, what other evangelical denomination has given us a J.S. Bach? Or a Dietrich Bonhoeffer?
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lydia00 said,
I don’t know if you saw this at the other blog or not, but I think it was on the really long thread about gender comp where I mentioned this gender comp friend I used to have.
He liked to argue about gender comp (as well as age of the earth, and the topic if ‘is baptism necessary for salvation’). I will admit to debating about topics a bit on blogs, but most of the time, especially in real life, I don’t like to argue and debate, but prefer a “live and let live” type attitude.
So, I didn’t want to debate this gender comp friend. He kept hounding me, though. Rather than debate him myself, I mailed him a copy of a book stating the egalitarian position and refuting some of the usual gender comp points.
I could tell from this friend’s subsequent e mails he had not read the book. I called him out on it, and he finally admitted he had only read the back cover of the book.
He told me he felt that the author probably didn’t have any biblical backing for her views at all (but she did, it was in the book) and that she was probably influenced by secular feminism (she had not been).
Anyhow, the sugar on top of all this is that this male friend of mine who was pretty stubborn on gender comp – he believed women should be subordinate to men and so on – he lived with his grandmother.
He rarely held jobs at all. To my knowledge, he only held one job, but quit after only a day (it was a minimum wage job) because he found it too stressful. He was too embarrassed to notify his boss he was quitting, so he had a family member go do it for him.
While he lived with his grandmother, she, IIRC, did his laundry for him, cooked for him. He was in his mid or late 20s at this time.
He got married in his late 20s, and did work for a spell at a low paying job for a bit, but his wife was the breadwinner who paid most or all of their bills.
I bit my tongue on that stuff for months, for over a year or more, until he kept getting so very pushy over the gender role stuff, even after I begged him to just drop it already, I did finally point out to him how RICH I found it that a guy who was insisting Man (male gender) should be Head of the Home and the Wife subordinate was being supported financially and emotionally by two women, first a grandmother, then by a wife.
This guy friend of mine had some emotional or mental health issues, so I felt a tad mean spirited in finally blurting that stuff out to him – I tried to be polite about it – but after months and months of this guy badgering me about gender roles, after I told him many times over we could just agree to disagree but he would not back off – I was so frustrated, I finally put it out there.
I don’t recall what his response was. I think he just ignored it and said nothing in return.
I cannot believe Christian men who are dependent on women, financially or otherwise, would continue to argue for gender complementarianism like that, to continue to say that women should be dependent on men.
But some of them are like that, they rely on women while at the same time supporting this Christian brand of sexism that says women should be under men. It is such a double standard.
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“fair amount of anti-Lutheran sentiment here.”
I have not read any one say negative things about Lutherans here. The Lutherans and Methodist I know actually act like Jesus.
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There’s not been much talk about Lutherans on the blog that I can recall.
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On the podcast, Tullian said that if it weren’t for his current job (then Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church), he would probably be Lutheran. But he planned on keeping his job so he could pay for his kids’ college tuition. That plan obviously failed.
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There’s a long history of Presbyterians criticizing Lutherans over how the Old Law is appropriated because of their different theologies. If you’re conversant in that conflict, you might see that in someone’s comments — without them knowing that they’re really scratching the surface of this difference. But that learning curve is steep and not many people talk about it.
I think that I’ve referenced it here on SSB in comments in an exchange with Martin Selbrede — and that was about two years ago.
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JA wrote: On the podcast, Tullian said that if it weren’t for his current job (then Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church), he would probably be Lutheran. But he planned on keeping his job so he could pay for his kids’ college tuition. That plan obviously failed.
I can hear this in Tullian’s discussion with Medford back when he was in conflict over grace and forgiveness, and then The Gospel Coalition dismissed him. What Tullian said was more consistent with what Luther wrote about being lead by the Spirit as opposed to following the Old Law as an unfolding of it through the New Covenant as is done in Covenant Theology. TGC follows straight up Covenant Theology in this case, and Tullian was talking like those who Presbys of old called “libertines” because they didn’t respect the Old Law and appropriate it in their New Creation lives.
Luther said that the way to tell if an Old Testament Law was applicable was to look to see if it brought any kind of condemnation that argued against a person’s justification before God through Christ. So if I read a passage in Proverbs that convicts me of a sin and the state of my heart before God (what John described in his first epistle as your heart condemning you), and I’m moved to confess that sin and grow in Christ and mortify my flesh through repentance and forsaking that sin, then I’ve correctly appropriated that Old Law. If I read it and it condemns me and I believe that I’m no longer a Christian and believe that my sin has separated me from God’s forensic esteem for me as in right standing with Him through Christ, then I’ve made the Old Law a rule book and have followed my flesh of striving to make myself holy. I’ve failed to follow the Law of Love through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Presbys and those Baptists who follow Covenant Theology appropriate the Old Law and figure out what Old Laws still apply by breaking them down into three categories and following only one category as rules. But as the insane yet very smart Gary North will admit, no one who follows Covenant Theology can agree about what Old Law falls into what category. This is what happened in Patriarchy and why it got so out of control. Anything with a hint of gender in it or elder rule was put into the necessary (moral) category. (In Covenant Theology, only the moral law is supposed to be followed. The Civil and Ceremonial laws are supposed to be set aside. But if you don’t know what category to put a particular law into, you end up in trouble.)
I’m not very familiar with Tullian, but his discussion of the Sovereign Grace Ministries abuse survivors with Medford was definitively Lutheran in this respect. His discussion of grace and how it affects us was very Lutheran.
The other element that may be at work that I get from Tullian (apart from his behavior concerning his wife and his obvious hubris) is that the Lutherans also hold a different view of what the Atonement imparts to Believers. The Christus Victor view holds that individual believers are imparted with the power to resist sin and to have greater love and a sound mind. We have authority which Jesus shares with us in His Name. It dripped from his comments in the discussion of SGM in that Medferd podcast.
Presbys follow the penal substitution view and believe that all the Cross did was satisfy God’s wrath against our sinfulness by declaring us righteous (in the forensic sense). Some also seem to follow what was the prevailing thought during the First Great Awakening in the US like Jonathan Edwards followed. They believe that there was also a “power” bestowed upon the church as a collective to have power to be a better church and to govern itself with a divine “something” to help its members. That power over sin is not given to the individual but to the church. This is why church folks like 9Marks write about how evil it is to leave a church without an elder’s permission unless you leave over doctrine only. TGC is all about this, including Al Mohler. It goes back to how Covenant Theology works.
In my experience, Dispensationalists (like Billy Graham) have a very Lutheran view of Soteriology (salvation and its doctrines) and what Jesus did for us on the Cross and how it affects us. I think that this is at the core of Tullian’s theology from those statements and little I’ve read. This is in stark contrast to TGC’s view and Covenant Theology’s soteriology. I think that’s what Tullian is talking about.
Lutherans share a very similar view on human autonomy with Calvinism, however, as well as a shared understanding of eschatology (the end times). So as I have learned personally, you can do pretty well in a Presby church if you’re a Lutheran — but only for awhile. When life makes the issue of elder rule or how or what Old Testament laws you follow or whether you follow a law versus the leading of the Spirit into the Law of Love, then conflict begins. I had this happen personally. And this is what I believe Tullian experienced with TGC.
Though in my own defense, I didn’t join the Presby church but only attended until I learned more about the doctrine, and the learning curve is very steep. What concerns me about Tullian is that he understood these doctrines, misrepresented what he believed or changed his mind about what he believed, but he remained partnered with a group of people with whom he did not share enough common belief to make it last. My question is whether that was a utilitarian move to pay the bills by misrepresenting his beliefs to his ordaining body and TGC that he did with intent, or whether he didn’t consider that his personal beliefs would effect his conduct as a pastor and representative of TGC. Was he burning the ideological candle on both ends, thinking it was okay to pledge his fealty to a denomination while he didn’t really believe what that denomination believed? Is this an issue of his character? That’s what concerns me. He sounds like he’s a spin artist who is not honest enough — at least not honest enough to pastor.
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Another quick way of looking at it: All Lutherans are Reformed, but not all Reformed are Lutherans. And in the right situation (anything touching on the Atonement or how you respect the Old Covenant/Testament), the differences between the Lutherans and the Presby/Baptist Old Covenant Theologians becomes painfully obvious.
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How’d I do, Keith Blankenship?
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JA: The anti-Lutheran views were expressed just a few comments up, by Katy and Lydia00, and have been expressed in other threads.
I am not complaining, I just want to emphasise that Tchividjian is not a Lutheran despite his having spoken at Concordia Seminary. It never made sense to me that he was invited. Glad he never actually tried to join a Lutheran denomination.
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Cindy K: I would like to respond in a a more complete way, but due to the press of business this morning, I will only make a few points:
1) Regarding eschatology, Lutherans are amillenial, many Presbyterians are not.
2)Lutheran soteriology is monergistic.
3)The relation of Law and Gospel is understood differently from the Presbyterians.
4) Presbyterians are not necessarily reliable in explaining Lutheran views.
5) No informed Lutheran would ever accept the label “Reformed”.
Would like to write more, but I have a jury trial today, and I need to get to work.
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“To the anti-Lutherans: please be advised that the writings of Luther are not the doctrine of the Lutheran Church, ”
Personally, I am “anti Martin Luther” not anti all Lutherans. Then i would have to be anti Dietrich Bonhoeffer, too.
If Baptists called themselves Boycians, I would have a field day with that guy, too. ‘o)
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“Glad he never actually tried to join a Lutheran denomination.”
I think he was raised Lutheran?
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Keith,
For later rehahsing… 🙂
My points were to help people understand why Tullian might identify as Lutheran.
1. Some Presbys and those who call themselves Reformed who are either Baptist or undefined “Covanant” identified claim that they are amillennial. So that gets confusing and makes it difficult to make generalizations. Pre- and amillennial are far more compatible with one another than those who are pre-tri/pre-mil rapture dispensationalists.
So that gets murky. (I ended up amillennial after making my way around through the options. My friend says that I’m really panmillennial — waiting to see how it all pans out.)
2. Lutheran soteriology is monergistic – yes, as is Covenant Theology. Dispensationalism is not, understanding that salvation takes place through a cooperation of man in response to God’s waking up of the unregenerate to receive Christ. The problem is that many dispensationalists understand that Covenant Theology or Calvinism means only monergism and nothing else — that God independent of man is responsible for election (the elect being those who are the Redeemed). So a “closet Lutheran” could get along with Presbys or Reformed Baptists on this issue.
I contend that a good portion of soteriology accepted by Dispensationalist Baptists is, at its core, more Lutheran than anything else.
3. Law and Gospel — So I take it that I got this right? The presence of condemnation is something of a litmus test for Luther to check whether you’re rightly applying the Old Law. ??? Presby’s break it down into categories and follow only moral law.
4. I agree. But I don’t know that some Lutherans are reliable either. 😉 I don’t know that I am, either. I could have learned about Lutheran doctrine from a wingnut and could have misinterpreted it along with the Dispy, Word of Faith, Presby, Theonomy, and a bunch of other stuff I’ve read or studied….
5. No informed Lutheran considers themselves Reformed. (Is that little or big R?) That one confuses me from my perspective, unless there are multiple differences in what reformed means as a label. Which might be why I did so poorly in the Presby church. 😉 It would help me tremendously if you could elaborate.
All that said for later discussion, I am glad that I don’t feel beholden or bound to a particular theology, and the ramifications of that can be profound. Where do I go to church? I’m a man without a country, save for the City whose Builder and Maker is God. That much I know.
Be trenchant and perspicacious in court today!
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I’ve always perceived Concordia as a group of institutions that is respectful of other Christians and can “play well with others.” That seems to be a rarity these days.
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Keith Blankenship,
I have nothing against Lutheran’s and think I said that I don’t know much about the belief’s of Lutheran’s. I do now have quite a bit against Martin Luther, but he’s been dead for a long time. I would prefer that he not be quoted in my non-denominational church. I don’t want many others quoted either. I have said on many occasions that I don’t agree with everything that goes on in the church. There is no perfect church, preacher or pew sitter. If we were, we’d all be with God in His Glory. How remarkable would that be?
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Tullian can always get ordained through the Church of the Subgenius and can just be honest about the slack.
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Well, Cindy K’s brilliant analysis is a warning to us all, or maybe just to me. In my experience, it has been theological differences that were one of the driving forces motivating pastors who dishonored me. All these lofty, but divisive, arguments! Would it not be better to pursue Jesus than to dogmatically pursue every subtle nuance of right theological thinking? Certainly the pursuit of right thinking has not produced good fruit, if TT, John Piper, et al. are any indication.
“We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion [theology?] raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.” (2 Corinthians 10:5 ESV)
But, just to cover my bases, I have decided to be a montanist who believes there is a certain synergy between God and man where election, justification and salvation are concerned. 🙂
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At the risk of being put into moderation for even naming him, BornForBattle, who posted here some time ago, is a prime example of those who heap abuse on others in the service of attempting to impose their theological views. Sadly, there are all too many “pastors” who fit into the same strident mold as B4B. Probably, however, TT, having been expelled from TGC, was more victim than perpetrator in this regard.
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I’m working on an update to this post right now.
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Gary W,
Doctrine divides us and love unites us. We can do well and grow in grace and truth if we walk in love. God brings us together in the knowledge of the truth. But as Lydia who comments here often says, these men are willing to “die on a hill” for doctrines that man put together in a systematic theology. As a learning tool, systematic theology might be a good thing, but it isn’t the Gospel with demons know well themselves. Without the illumination of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and our minds, it only becomes an intellectual exercise, void of love. And some use that system to achieve love, but that isn’t where it comes from.
How marvelous that God lets us understand Him in so many different ways and can appeal to us through so many different aspects of who He is, depending on who we are. It’s up to us to take that and use those elements of who He is as a foothold to understand all that He is.
And I’m just glad that we serve a God who meets us where we are, even if He has to come find us because we’ve wandered off — and rejoices when He does find us, redeeming us again and again. Meeting us wherever we happen to be isn’t a decision made based on doctrine but an act of passion and love. I don’t know any system that can put love and passion into the heart of another.
We human beings so easily confuse the tool with the purpose. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for it. But we fallible and fickle can so easily lose sight of that. At the end of the day, I trust that I am fallible and that the best insight is that which God gives me and wakes me up to see. And there, I chose to put my faith, though my “system” may look like a post party frat house as opposed to a library on many days. But at the end of the day, also, I consider that “I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day.” I just have to keep looking at my heart to make sure that I’ve committed things to Him and not to a tool or a system.
The glue that can hold us together, if we let it, is love.
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I think TGC threw Tullian to the dogs — while at the same time, they courted a man whose errors resulted in the sexual abuse of hundreds of children doing untold and immeasurable damage to child and family and the families that those adult children would have because of the baggage.
I’m not thrilled at Tullian’s petulant behavior, but that doesn’t absolve TGC of their thug life tactics. Maybe throwing him out saved him from becoming what the senior members of that group are today. And that’s something God can work with if Tullian allows that to happen.
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Cindy K,
Thank you for your comment of August 26, 2015 @ 10:07 PM, which I just now got around to noticing. I need the reminder that our Lord meets even murderous theologians where they are, as He once so famously did on the road to Damascus. Unfortunately, it seems that Paul was exceptional in this regard. In my experience the doctrinally inclined seem more apt to exhibit the spirit of another influential theologian, the murder of Miguel Servetus.
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Gary W,
Thank you for reminding me to pray for Tullian and those like him. I don’t do that nearly as much, and sometimes, not at all — depending on how angry I am because of the baggage of watching similar situations unfold. Observing/defining a problem is part of the solution, and for the Christian, prayer is another part of it. If we don’t pray in hope for him, who will? I’m sure that at least a few of those who have cut him away pray imprecatory prayers concerning him. (Not all do, but some do.)
I think that he has some good things going for him, too. He’s still young, and he has a chance to grow up. What we don’t know is whether he was naive to think that his outspokenness about the Soveriegn Grace Ministries fallout was going to make it back to TGC with consequences to follow or whether he was “captive to his conscience” when he stepped forward to criticize abuse in leadership. I hope that it was the latter. 😉 Again, I don’t know if he realized that he was admitting to the world that he was a pretty significant hypocrite when he admitted some lack of congruence between his own beliefs and those of the denomination to whom he vowed his fealty, or whether he just blurted out what was in his heart, not realizing how bad it sounded.
Does that make him exceptionally narcissistic or does that show us that he has a soul in there that’s not seared beyond hope? I worry more about the cool cucumbers who adopt a theology and then never change that from day one and who never talk about the elements of the belief system that give them pause or the ones that they have a harder time accepting. People that are swinging around are alive and dynamic. Those who conform their beliefs to something other than their conscience and never seem to grow bother me more. With them, the only thing that you see them recapitulate is their tactics. Whether Tullian is just not very self-aware or whether he really believes that there are no consequences for what he does, he is still in crisis and God can intervene. So I pray that He does, and I pray that Tullian yields to God’s desire to work in Him. Maybe his Damascus has happened and he hasn’t embraced the fullness of it yet. Maybe it is yet to come. May he surrender to it and call on God when He is near to him.
It would make for a wonderful book in a decade or two.
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