Josh Duggar, sex scandal, painful reminders, homeschool movement, patriarchy, purity and modesty culture, Bill Gothard
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With the recent disclosure of sexual infidelity by Josh Duggar, I have been noticing a lot of people who have been influenced by Patriarchy, Quiverfull, Bill Gothard, Homeschool Movement, etc, trying to make sense of what is going on. Some of us are experiencing strong emotions as we think about this case, how connected we were to certain teachings, how the teachings have affected us and our families.
Yesterday, I found myself very angry at Patriarchy and how women are victimized and silenced. I was angry at the hurry-up-and-marry-young-and-have-lots-of-babies teaching we see in these groups. I’m sickened that Anna Duggar has most likely been isolated with like-minded people and so any counsel she receives is the typical mantra about divorce, repentance, etc. Reports in media have already alluded that Anna has no plans on leaving Josh.
I’m angry that the teaching that she has been exposed to says that you must have a happy countenance. This teaching does not allow for people to express feelings appropriately. If someone has a sad/angry face, they won’t be “attractive” to share the Gospel. This is how they deny themselves for Christ. I’ve got news for them. When someone is allowed to express their feelings, it is telling the truth. Do you see how truth can remain hidden in these groups when people are not allowed to express what is really going on? This teaching infiltrated my family, too. Some in my family have difficulty expressing themselves because they weren’t allowed to express negativity. All because of these teachings.
I’m angry that we isolated our children from “outside” family members for fear of their worldly influence. They lost precious relationships with cousins, aunts, uncles that they can never get back.
Every time a scandal comes out, it takes me back to my own painful story.
Okay, enough from me. Below is a comment from Anonymous posted yesterday:
Please pray for the survivors struggling to reclaim what is left of our lives post ATI cult. Each Duggar event is a trigger that cycles the anger, shame, guilt of the parents and students. We are grieving the loss of family, faith and the Godly families we worked tirelessly to produce. The lies we bought into destroyed our families and robbed us of precious relationships and joys!! We separated from our extended families to protect out children. Many grandparents died never connecting to our kids because we were taught “generational sins” pass down.
This latest scandal is all too common in our families’ dysfunction of understanding a healthy sex life is Gods gift not to be shunned. That poor wife is like our daughters who were raised to believe in the white knight sent by God, after years of protection, chastity vows and rings, and fairy tale lives promised in all approved reading material ( from Vision Forum and Doup Phillips/ATI approved !!!)
I am just sick again to have followed my husband into this snake put if lies with our children. Gods grace is so precious to me.
These words are sad and heartfelt. I’m sure many of you who have been connected with these teachings could be struggling with similar thoughts. If you have been impacted by the Josh Duggar scandal, feel free to share here. The sad story is that these teachings extend far beyond the families who were part of the teachings. If you have been impacted in any way by the Josh Duggar scandal, this post is for you.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
It’s Anna, not Amy.
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My mother has been impacted by this sinful mess. She used to watch the Duggar show on TV because they seemed like a godly, tight-knitted family, something she was denied when she was growing up. Now she sees the fairy tale family the Duggars presented on TV as lies. She is very heart-sick. What I’m most afraid of is how this will further impact her relationship with God negatively.
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Just a small picky: If you’re referring to Josh’s wife, she’s Anna, not Amy. 🙂
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OOpsy – got it! Thanks!
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Yes, I am definitely being triggered. But it is also giving me a reason to speak up and talk more about what I have experienced. I am not at all surprised that all of this happened or that it is coming to light. Or that the media is going nuts over it. Or that the LGBTQ community is angry, as they ought to be, over the cruel hypocrisy.
What bothers me the most is some of the anger directed as his wife. I’ve read a lot of comments from people who clearly have valid wounds from extreme fundamentalist Christians, but who are angry at his wife for not leaving.
I feel so lucky to have escaped this world before getting stuck in a marriage like this. And if I had, I could very well have been in her same shoes. And as a woman in that world, you have no voice. And divorce is this horrible evil sin, no matter the circumstance. I feel lucky to have a supportive family, friend group, and boyfriend who have encouraged me to re-gain my voice. Five years later, I am stronger. I know that my voice matters.
But every time a woman is victim blamed like this, it makes me wince and reminds me of sermon after sermon shoving down our throats the idea that women should be silent. That “forgiving” abuse is Christ-like. That the responsibility to examine sin is on the victim not the perpetrator.
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The latest statement that Anna takes partial blame for Josh’s perversions is taking me into a hot searing rage. The accompanying photograph of her looking adoringly up to the drooling fool is making matters worse.
It is triggering memories of that same deer in the headlights look that every wife employed when a couple went up to speak at my old-old SGM church. I remember being taught how to give that look although I never perfected it.
Then I wonder what Anna thought she could have provided in order to not share the blame. Moral Oral, whips and chains, leather, tossed salad? What?
Or has someone shamefully accused her of asking for it?
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Not sure which thread to reply to, so I’ll start here… When the first story came out, there were a few comments by other homeschooling families on my facebook feed and other places. And we even talked about it at our mom’s night out fellowship with our homeschool group.
What bothers me now, is I hear crickets from others in homeschooling. No one is making the connection or wanting to admit there is a problem!
I had friends tell me, “Well, you can’t blame the curriculum.” Yes you can! If it is teaching wrong things! Sigh.
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You better believe the curriculum is to blame. When Gothard tells young ladies who are sexually abused to look at how they are dressed, see if there was unconfessed sin in their life, it is blaming women, not the perpetrator.
I truly believe that Gothard’s teaching materials are essentially sexual grooming manuals. All the guys who were taught this know that they rule over women, not just wives, but all women. They also know that women will be blamed. It gives them a green light to explore whatever sex sins they want because they will not be blamed.
Gothard’s own material allowed him to sexually groom 30-40 women that have come forward. Who knows how many have not come forward. Doesn’t it makes sense that Josh would apply the teaching to his own life just as Doug Phillips did? When men feel they are entitled to women, feel it is their spiritual responsibility to rule over them, you better believe there are men who will take advantage of this and abuse. I am just sick of it and tired of people sidestepping these root issues.
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When it was reveled that Josh had sexually molested young girls, I was shocked to read all the comments defending him– He who is without sin cast the first stone; That happened a long time ago; He has repented and changed. (Though, apparently, people are a little less tolerant of his adultery than his molestation of little girls.) Some of us know how Patriarchy is stacked against females. It’s also not very healthy for the men. (I mean, come on. Josh is 27 years old and his mother is releasing his statement on her blog? How infantailizing!)
Some of us know what the blanket training that Michelle utilizes entails. We know what it’s like to have emotions trained right out of us. We know what it’s like to have others controlling the environment we live in so we won’t be “polluted.” We know what it’s like to have someone else managing and controlling our relationships, so that we marry someone we don’t even really know.
You’d think that after being gestated in a perfect little bubble that nothing could possibly go wrong. And yet it does. We’ve seen the leaders get caught in their own sexual shenanigans. Some of us know young people (or we were the young persons ourselves) who have been molested by fathers, brothers, and other adults. Every now and then a child is killed by parents using “To Train Up a Child.” Women are trapped in abusive marriages with no means to leave and support several children. And now one of Patriarchy’s most prominent figures has molested girls and sought to have an affair. (And is addicted to porn by his own admission.)
I want people to see this ideology for what it is. I want people to see beyond the facade. I want people to stop defending the Duggars as such a nice, loving, wholesome family. How many more scandals need to come out for people to stop idolizing this?
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Just tweeted this ^^^ h/t BTDT
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Darn. I misspelled infantilizing. You can blame me for that JA. 🙂 Although spellcheck still says it’s wrong even when I copy it straight from a dictionary website.
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It does make me sick. It makes me sick that young girls are taught that their only purpose in life is to get married! I’m not against marriage and am happily married.
It completely baffles me that people think that my two grown daughters should be “keepers of the home” only. Keepers of my home?
It makes me sick that Christian people I know think that if you aren’t married by a certain age – that there is something wrong with you or you have missed the call for your life!
It makes me sick that with all the really important issues of life that lots of Christian people are focusing on this stuff!
How did we get here?
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My brain is on summer break (last day of summer term was yesterday) and I completely missed it 🙂 I’ll send out a new one.
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Thanks for your comment, Keri. Those are very legitimate concerns.
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for some reason, the thought of anna being made to feel partly to blame [assuming that source is real] for his sexual sin is….such a a sad and heart-wrenching thought for me, personally. much of the culture puts the failure on the woman for “not satisfying” her man, and I think that’s generally garbage. Anna may have her own sins, but asking her to absorb this one- i dunno- that really upsets me.
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Sometimes the men in this movement never get a chance to grow up and make their own decisions. It stems from the idea of Multigenerational Faithfulness.
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008/12/layers-of-extra-biblical-belief.html
My husband (who is nearly 40 years old and the father of five children) recently told his parents we were considering enrolling our kids in public school at some point. They went berserk, because God’s perfect plan is homeschooling. Had I been present for this conversation, I would have simply told them, “You don’t get a vote.”
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I did neither grew up in this culture nor have lived it in my married life, so I have not found a real personal affect. I have, however, felt sad about the whole situation. While none of this surprises me, I am still saddened by those affected by poor choices all around.
An article was linked on the SSB Facebook page earlier that talked about how kids who grow up in the purity and courting culture don’t have a chance to emotionally attach to the person they are courting. That really stood out as significant to me and it says a lot. Which lead me to think about how parents who raise their children under Gothard’s, Pearl’s or Ezzo’s methods most likely do not have a healthy attachment bond to their children because their entire goal is to break the will of the child. This entire system is so screwed up when trusting bonds cannot be established and leads to much heartache down the road.
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BTDT – our conversation with my parents went the other way… They don’t approve of our homeschooling.. And they had no say… And, they respect our decision. I will/do leave it up to my kids about homeschooling vs. public school for high school. My oldest has chosen to continue homeschooling, for now. (She sees the drama at dance classes *gasp – yes, my daughter dances in low-cut, tight-fitting outfits!* and has decided she doesn’t need it.) My boys have a couple of more years…
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I had a very long life event list I wanted to say about why I am angry and Josh Duggar and others. but I will put it like this, they walk between the raindrops. They get away with the crap they pull and get all this support from friends and prayer etc.I know he is getting reamed in the press, but he still gets paid, DP still makes bank, MD still makes bank etc. My entire life I have lived hand to mouth supporting ministries, my family etc. I don’t mind doing that, but these guys blow millions of dollars and just walk away.
It has affected me personally because it makes the Christian faith look stupid, and it belittles Jesus, granted that really has no meaning at all, but it should. What bothers me the most and I mean the most, and I understand after 35 years in the industry this is totally pathetic and disgusting, at least that is what I get from the industry leaders, is how it hurts his wife and children. How women and children are treated like trash and the manly men blabber on about created order and the fatherhood of God and they would not know God if God fell out of the sky and landed on them during a sermon about God.
I mean they got upset because of Target using gender neutral signs for some toys and this is like a challenge of world views. But give these clowns a pass on the real issue, patriarchy but go off on say MD about his naughty words lol. The other thing that has really affected me was the smugness they have towards science like going to the Ken Ham circus masquerading as a museum. Even in the apology / revised apology / lawyer checked PR firm checked sanitized apology. They honestly don’t live in the same universe all us seem to.
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PS I was really proud of those two young ladies that made it through ranger training. Good for them, I wonder what the patriarchy crowd thinks of that.
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My husband and I didn’t grow up in Christian homes. We made mistakes so when we started hearing all these idea’s about kids growing up a better way (that’s how it was presented) it sounded good and better to us. Of course parents don’t honestly want their kids to make the same mistakes they did.
So, we fell for it until our kids got older and we were smack dab in the middle of one of them finding someone they wanted to date. He was an adult and we honestly just didn’t feel right telling him what to do. We realized it was all just so wrong. So we prayed and never told him what to do. He managed. You wouldn’t believe the grief we got because they held hands. They were engaged. I had to tell someone it wasn’t a “sin” to hold hands. I was actually told that because he lived in my house that we could tell him the rules. I laughed! They didn’t talk to me after that. No loss.
His engagement didn’t work out. I didn’t consider it a “failed courtship”. It is really just crazy what people can fall for. I’ve really tried to reach out to those who are still stuck in this cycle of cult and try to encourage them to see what God really says about all of this. That includes grown daughters too who aren’t married.
I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that most of this is done out of fear! Well, so what if our kids make a mistake. Don’t’ they have to learn how to deal with it just like we did. To ask God for wisdom and forgiveness. We didn’t have our son take along chaperone’s or chaperone him ourselves. How are people really going to get to know each other for real.
How can we expect these marriages to actually make it when they are built upon the premise that someone always has to be watching you and helping you. They have to learn how to fail and depend on God to help them before they get married! Just my thoughts now that I’ve calmed down a little but still feel very passionately about it all. We’ve actually had to go back to adult kids and apologize for some stupidity in getting involved in that. Thankfully they have been very forgiving!
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I have family members who are living this lifestyle but are very good to their kids but it has concerned me since they got into it. Now I’m really concerned and pray that they will hear God and use their discernment He gave us all. We are deceived in our own wounds and sometimes cannot see past those wounds.
Ironic thing that struck me as I’ve been reading about all the sexual abuse in the patriarch movement and about many children raised in the gay community on an ex-homosexual site. I see a common denominator with both groups, a majority of them feel that the non-supporters of their lifestyle are a threat to their beliefs and shun them, avoid mixing with them, tell their kids these opposers to their belief are a threat to them mentally, stifle the children’s from expressing their views, feelings etc. Many of these kids now grown tell how their parents taught them how bad the Christians are, get very angry if their kids befriend one, punish them harshly etc. while sexually abusing these kids and letting others in their circle abuse them as well. How sad…
I know not “all” of them do this but as with many far out groups, the children are the victims.
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The scandal has me triggered three ways to Sunday. I was raised in a fundamentalist household and my father was a sex addict. I know some people don’t believe that sex addiction exists, but…there it is. My dad did some vile, filthy things. He’d get caught, confess, cry, pray, apologize, go to counseling. Then he’d be at it again a few months later. And he was a minister. Couldn’t hold a job for more than two years at a time (with one exception).
Yes, I was one of his victims. When I heard the Duggar girls would be doing a documentary on child sex abuse, I submitted a post on my personal story of living with my abuser to Unfundamentalist Christians. It ran a couple of weeks ago. I just submitted another on sex addiction. Dan Wilkinson hasn’t told me if it will run yet.
I don’t know if Josh is struggling with sex addiction. But given the molestation of his sisters and now these documented attempts at infidelity, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. The problem is, I know how bad it can get. And I’m praying it won’t go there.
Because of the fallout with my dad, I had a breakdown two years ago. I’m still trying to recover, and I happen to find myself in a particularly rough spot at the moment. I suppose I’ll hang in there…and do my therapy by writing about the Duggars.
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I’m so sorry, April. That sounds so inadequate, but I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
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April (and to everyone else too!) – Thank you for sharing your story. I hope that you are able to find healing along your journey. This is tough stuff to deal with and sometimes these stories that come out make it suck even more.
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April, Damn your experiences are horrid & wrong. I am sick with sorry for what you have gone through. Istm that you are one smart woman. I hope you blog your story to the max. Your voice is needed, I need straight forward words from survivors to tell it like it was for them, I am not good with words, but I know when a writer is writing from their intellect and when they are writing from their heart. Peace to you, I am so sorry.
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Brian, did I accurately detect a Dean Koonz reference?! (anyone not into Dean Koonz, these are not the droids you’re looking for….move along, move along…)
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April, I’m sorry to hear you are at a rough spot right now,but thankful that you have a great outlet by sharing here and also your personal writing. You are a great writer and not only is it therapy for you, but I think others connect with it as well. Keep going, girl!
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Gail, fyi, your words are powerful, too. I so appreciate your poems!
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This whole mess really triggered me. Josh molested his younger sisters. He was the oldest and took advantage of them. Just like my older brother did to me. I still get flashbacks to this day, and this was over 50 years ago. 😦
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Opin a bit of a hint, but I did not think on it, sort of like Koonz does with his work, it came from a Higher Author 🙂
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That is terrible. I’m so sorry.
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I have been brainwashed by those teachings also. Not all of them, and I was not part of the quiver full cult, but, I did endure life inside a cult for 15 years.
If I could say one thing to you all to help you better understand this it would be please understand that they are brainwashed. They do not posses critical thinking skills, and they do not question what they are taught. They are zombies who are completely out of step with reality. Think about that for a moment. Its a scary place to be when you have people who love me that what I was in is wrong, but because I was so screwed up in my head I honestly thought *they* were the crazy ones.
I really don’t know if there is a god, but if there is, he is the only one that can make them see the error of their ways. I know how my eyes were opened, and it was extremely painful and stopped the entire course of my life for 3 years. I am still suffering the lingering effects of it. I lost everything. A brand new home, a high paying job, my health…I mean everything. But, that was my turning point in life. I don’t wish the hell I went through on them, but if it jolts them back into reality, then so be it.
Love to you all!
Lisa
Alexandria VA
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I feel nearly helpless and wish that I could do something to protect Anna:
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2015/08/will-anna-duggar-be-offered-as-next.html
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Note: There are many interpretations of the meaning of the scapegoat. I believe that, per the Jewish understanding that I was taught, that the position I reflect is accurate. The sacrifice offered before God through shed blood covered sin, but the scapegoat was an offering to the Law of sin and death. It is this law of death that I believe that Jesus conquered and condemned in the flesh — what the Law could never do. I’m not interested in engaging in a discussion of the many, intricate meanings of the scapegoat — as the concept is defined well enough for the germane purpose of the post.
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This just gets more and more troubling, basically, and the glib attitude that many had over such a horrible thing in May was bad enough. I hope Huckabee is thanking God that he broke away from this family, and I hope he’s ashamed for fighting so hard for Josh in the beginning.
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Your comment was so good, Lisa. I remember going back and forth with this in my mind. When I was by myself, I found myself questioning my pastor from time to time. I watched things that he said and did which were alarming. But then he would say something that made perfect sense and aligned with Scripture, so that would make me doubt my previous uncertainty. What is strange to me is that some well-meaning friends voiced their concerns to me and I dismissed them entirely, knowing that I, too, had reservations. I did think they were deceived and/or crazy just like you, Lisa.
Eventually, it took some key events that I saw displayed that cemented in me that I was in a cult. It’s interesting, even after leaving, I have had to “chuck” (haha) everything that Chuck O’Neal taught and start over again based on what I see in Scripture. This is a long process and we, too, have had to suffer loss and many years of ongoing pain (that continues to this day).
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Cindy K, a beautifully written article. Thank you for expressing it all so well.
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And Dr. Ablow’s take on Josh many months ago:
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^Note on the Arkansas police report: The police department was required under a Freedom of Information Act request by a news agency to produce a copy of the redacted police report. It would have been a crime for the police department to NOT produce it.
Instead the Duggars have blamed everybody but themselves, including tarnishing the name of the woman police chief, demanding her firing, hiring an attorney to have their son Josh sue the Arkansas Social Services for investigating their son (lawsuit when he was 19 years old). They then hired an attorney for one of their daughters to sue.
If anyone wasn’t in lockstep with their family’s “squeaky clean” image/pack of lies, the Duggars unashamedly wanted to *take that person* out, for simply upholding the laws and doing their professional jobs (law or social services).
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Dr. Ablow was excellent in this video – such common sense.
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Yes, Julie Anne. Dr. Ablow was spot on!
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Julie,
Its interesting to me that we all have different experiences that wake us up so to speak.
Ive seen so many articles about Josh that I have no interest in reading past the first few sentences, but I am grateful that you took it from a totally different point of view!
Very well written, and judging by the comments much needed by many!
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@Brian:
Successful sociopaths usually do.
Absolute masters of camouflage and deception, grooming allies in high places as well as their victims.
“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
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And an essay by conservative radio talk show host Janet Mefferd, that is several months old, about the questions she would have asked Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar if she had interviewed them:
http://janetmefferd.com/2015/06/questions-questions-what-i-would-have-asked-the-duggars/
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To quote Pastor Jeffress “Thats none of your business doctor”. Considering what these folks believe and how they give no privacy to anyone else in or out of their family a bit ironic.
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Velour,
Thanks for the video. That pastor Jeffress guy….
“That’s none of your business,” he repeatedly yells when Ablow asks hard hitting questions about whether Josh received treatment and the girls got proper counseling.
But yet this guy is one of the nation’s loudest voices for the purity crusade. Noting when it comes to what people do in their bedrooms is none of his business.
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Why is it that when I hear Jeffress saying “that’s none of your business” all I hear is Cain asking God “am I my brother’s keeper?”
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@Barnasbasinstraining,
And for all that Jeffress said that the problems of Josh Duggar would all solved, giving pat and trite answers to deep problems, that wasn’t the case was it? As Dee over at The Wartburg Watch said she had been searching for his name every single day on the internet because she thought the other shoe was going to drop and the story wasn’t over. (There’s a reason she’s a nurse!)
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None of your business, LOL isn’t this Pastor Jeffro the same guy constantly yelling about sex in the movies, celebrities living immoral lives , repeal of the sodomy laws by the Supreme Court ruling and recently gay marriage. If we are going to point our holier than thou fingers at other public figures you have to expect the same treatment in return.
He comes off like the inbred southern boy turned preacher. Why didn’t he just come right out and say what he obviously thinks ” child molestation is no big deal, rape is no big deal , object sexual penetration NO biggie, GET OVER IT and embrace forgiveness. After all he is your rapist n Christ ( oppsy brother n Christ ). Besides it was just incest, a family matter “.
This pastor makes me sick. Seeing little Anna accept some blame for Josh’s sins broke my heart. This is even worse. I hope that scumbag couple that has made a billion dollars from creating that site is pleased with the destruction they have caused. Today a police captain in Texas killed himself after being exposed for being on the list. In my area someone posted the list on the Fairfax Underground and it has people looking for names of people they know and posting their work places and everything else. The horrible consequences of all this will result in more suicides and divorces before this is all over.
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@Scott,
Here’s a Divorce Minister article about the list going public.
http://www.divorceminister.com/josh-duggar-and-ashley-madison/
Nobody made the people sign up on that website. They signed up because they wanted to. They put in their credit card information. They are responsible for their choices. Additionally, they put their spouses at risk of sexually transmitted diseases, financial risk, etc.
I was sorry to hear about the Texas police captain’s suicide. He took a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The San Antonio newspaper online didn’t have any further information about the story and we don’t really know what was going on in his life.
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Scott, I read that about the city employee in Texas and an apparent connection to the Ashlie Madison hack. Back in my evangelical days when things like this happened to people “in the world” there was a bit of a glee, some actually really loved it to see others crash and burn. I always felt awful for all involved, a personality fault on my part. I am fearful of the pain to follow many of these revelations.
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For me as man I would like to take Jim and Josh Dugger along with Bill Gothard out into a back ally and beat the living crap out of them. Although I was never involved in IBLP or ATI I saw the girl I loved and wanted to marry ripped away from me by her family and their cohorts to be brain washed over and again that she had no say in who she married, that our love was based on deception therefore it wasn’t love… and so on I could go. Angry for me is an understatement! People must have rocks in their heads or the colour of their sky must be pink in their world to defend Josh Dugger past present or future. I tale no pleasure in any of this. I feel deeply saddened for the lie Anna and others have been sold in the name of false spiritually that only ever serves the narcissistic, misogynous, self serving, arrogant people who sue the name God for self aggrandizement… I could go on but I think you all get the picture.
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Re Bill Gothard and the others: Some conservative Christian men, long-time elders at their churches in Europe, that I know have said that this form of American Christianity has more in common with radical Islam’s treatment of women than our equality and freedom and Christ. (And isn’t it curious that Gothard and all of the big name proponents of this have all been accused of, what else, sexually preying on young women.)
One of the posters here used a new term for the NeoCal’s War on Women:
“Shehad” (pronoun She + Had, sounds like Jihad). Spot on!
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@Scott:
According to MSNBC, blackmailers are already making major bank on it and divorce lawyers are anticipating a major upswing in bu$ine$$.
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From this piece from People.
Very few people around here are “baffled” that this happened. It’s called REPRESSION. Sexual repression only energizes unhealthy sexual urges. That is why is it never shocking when skeletons from a moral crusader’s closet fall out. We are at a point where it would be shocking if their closet was free of skeletons.
Perhaps their faith in their system should be rocked by this. Perhaps they should start questioning their system.
Sigh. Why does this make me cringe. In the end, I think they will only dig in their heels and double down on legalism/Patriarchy/Gothardism/etc. Because apparently Josh is acting the way he does because they did not enforce the Gothard principles strongly enough.
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“According to MSNBC, blackmailers are already making major bank on it and divorce lawyers are anticipating a major upswing in bu$ine$$.”
I would feel horrible making money off this situation, another of my many faults.
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Although I was never involved in IBLP or ATI I saw the girl I loved and wanted to marry ripped away from me by her family
I had something similar happen, chrissymonds. It was decades ago and I am now happily married to someone else and have been for years, but I still feel the pain of it and have absolutely no respect at all for the man responsible for it (love interest’s father). I think what he did to both of us is despicable and inexcusable. He did similar things to at least one of his other children too.
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IBLP and ATI survivors need to understand one thing, and one thing only: We did not fail the system. The system itself is a failure.
Anyone who is still going on about how ATI is a wonderful program and the rest of us simply didn’t measure up: You’re sadists and sociopaths. Wake up. Open your eyes to the facts.
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And Bill Gothard: Take your 49 principles and cram them right up your ass. Filthy old pervert.
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chrissymonds65, Your story is so sad. Every time I read more, the anger builds and I need to get an outlet. I’m furious at how many lives were affected by Gothard’s bad teachings.
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The two primary defenses I hear from Gothard apologists are:
1. “Gothard is a good man! With good intentions! He meant well! He spent his whole life giving us God’s teachings! Leave him alone!”
A: NO. Gothard is a sick twisted pervert. He’s a narcissistic sadist who spent 50 years using twisted, legalistic distortions of the Bible to beat people into submission and bend them to his own personal will. He is a horror of a human being.
2. “Our family has been involved with IBLP and ATI for [x] years! We’re doing GREAT! Gothard’s teachings have opened our eyes and brought joy and newness to our lives! You’re all unrepentant sinners who couldn’t hack the program!”
A: Seriously, we’ve been over this. Thousands of families who finally wised up and got out have reported firsthand the misery, damage, and abuse that Gothard’s lies precipitate. If you still think Gothard’s distortions are positive representations of the blood of Christ, you’re either stupid, crazy, or sociopathic.
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Dash said:
Yep. The sad thing is, the Duggars will blame themselves for not following the system rigidly enough, not being legalistic enough, not being sanctimonious enough, and not being conservative enough. They will only dig in their heels and double down.
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“A: Seriously, we’ve been over this. Thousands of families who finally wised up and got out have reported firsthand the misery, damage, and abuse that Gothard’s lies precipitate. If you still think Gothard’s distortions are positive representations of the blood of Christ, you’re either stupid, crazy, or sociopathic.” – Dash
Or: brainwashed from being in a cult.
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Same thing.
Stupid, crazy, AND sociopathic are the fruit of being in a cult.
“Insanity is part of these times! You must learn to EMBRACE THE MADNESS!”
— Ambassador Londo Mollari, Babylon-5
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And SCREAM LOUDER!
“And stop screaming. Nobody likes a religion with people screaming.”
— Internet Monk, “I’m weary of weird Christians” (?)
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Steve Taylor had Got Hard pegged all the way back in 1985:
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@Velour:
“Sin is not only morally wrong; if you’re able to step back and take a look at it from the outside, it’s also Terminally Stupid.”
— Fr Joseph Justice, the priest who supervised my RCIA catechism
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As heart broken as I was I am happy to say she met someone else and went against her Step fathers wishes and married him. Her mother supported her so he packed his bags and walked out. I unwittingly had encouraged her to stand against IBLP teaching. She knew it was wrong she simply had no way out of her circumstances at the time. She married a nice guy too
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You must have paved the way for her to stand up for herself! Are you saying that the stepfather moved out after his stepdaughter went against his wishes?
I’m glad everything turned out well for her.
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Yeah the step father walked out because she refused to give in and ignored his threats of hell and brim fire. Her mom stood by her and the dad’s ego was too big to let them go ahead. Her mom supported her. The back story is that I wrote a very nasty email after the girl called it off with me So you can get the picture I have copied and pasted it. I am not proud of this but I think it needed to be said. With the fall out that has occurred since this event I think the mans wife started to see though the faced that was her husband. Sadly she adored him and I have no doubt that his leaving shattered her. I don’t have copies of the other emails I sent them but I know the whole family saw them and began to doubt his spiritual state. He has no grace or forgiveness except on his terms which are straight out of the IBLP work books.
Dear Greg and Robyn.
This letter was written mostly before you went away. The continuity doesn’t flow very well but I think you will get the message.
Firstly I have a request. I want to talk to Jacqui without any one else present so that I may confirm that the email she sent to me are her thoughts and wishes and not you putting words in her mouth.
I need to say I am not sorry I tried to help Jacqui leave home. However I am not proud of the way we went about it. Maybe we should have had the courage to simply say she was leaving but I believe you would never have let her go. Then we would have had to call the police and that would not look good for you.
Greg and Robyn I really don’t know where to start with this letter because there a so many things to say and this is my forth attempt at doing it in the least inflammatory fashion.
I do love you and I deeply appreciate all you have done for me over the past few months. I don’t want to appear ungracious or ungrateful. Originally I had no intentions of acting on my feelings for Jacqui. I never considered the possibility that she would be or could be interested in me. So for almost a year I just kept my feelings to myself. Then I was beaten up, my bike was taken and I landed at your house. I am not trying to prove God did all this with the express intention of putting Jacqui and I together however Jacqui also felt the same way about me three months prior to all this occurring. I know your view regarding feelings but I can find no precedent for your views in scripture that is Bill Gothard’s teaching. I am curious how you can accept the views of a man who instructs others on how to raise families and children but has never been married, who has lived at home with his mother most of his life and worst of all is not inclined to accept guidance or biblical instruction from other men and finally makes his whole method of teaching like a secret society that you pay through the nose for.
You and Robyn are both highly intelligent people. You witnessed firsthand the damage that has been done to the McPherson’s and the Shaw’s by his false doctrine and yet you secretly imposed the very same practices on your own children. You threaten them with God’s punishment if they step out from under your covering words like “you don’t want that to happen! Come to mind speaking of the consequences that could occur. Your judgement of others that you believe happened because they didn’t follow the 7 principles set out by Gothard. Once more I ask you who made you judge or Gothard the final authority on how God deals with His children.
I guess to begin with we should start with the why. Jacqui was going to leave because I did. I always intended to leave and almost to the end resisted the temptation to ask her to come with me. I Hope she leaves of her own accord one day for her own reasons and her own wellbeing. It came to my attention that both of you were using me as a form of blackmail to control Jacqui. How cruel is it to threaten to throw me out if we didn’t keep a distance from each other. How do two people who love each other stay apart in the same house? How cruel is it to let me stay in the first place? Did you think we would both just get over it? All you did was push us closer together.
Secondly you were never going to give us your blessing. The list I wrote about my strengths and weaknesses for you was your way to control me with the idea that if I submitted to you I’d believe there was a chance you would change your mind. I am not that stupid. Then there was you thinking you could manipulate me with the IBLP doctrine and you thought I would do it for Jacqui’s sake. I will come back to Bill Gothard later. Well nowhere in the bible does it say you have any right to dictate others feelings or the right to deny others what is given by God. Emotions are not sinful otherwise God is evil. People do not need approval to love each other nowhere is there a verse that says two people need someone’s permission other than God. That is why we seek after God’s will. Last time I looked you were not God you are not God’s oracle. You don’t know God’s will for other people you have no authority to dictate what others may feel or whom they love once they reach adulthood. Did you notice that Jacqui is an adult whom you treat and dominate as a child? The latest thing to come out of this is you taking off in a hurry for a holiday when your motive was pretty much to keep control of Jacqui. My opinion of you is that you are a pair of twisted, sick, monstrous, Bill Gothard clones. That is pretty much what this all boils down to control! Your phone call to me apologising for your harsh treatment of Jacqui and I was about as genuine as your little farewell speech at Church 4 You. I imagine you are attempting to arrange a husband for Jacqui or already have as I write this. I hope that all goes terribly wrong for you I sincerely do. I am fairly certain the control, the guilt and fear you’ve inflicted on your children will come back on your like the plagues God inflicted on Egypt.
Also at the bottom of this is your precious image. Both you and Robyn aren’t as good at keeping secrets as you think you are but I won’t dig that dirt over. You have tried very hard to present an image of Godliness, humility and love towards others however I sat at your table and watched you mock and malign others. I watched you get defensive when others took the initiative to help Christopher and instead of being gracious you dropped him like a hot coal. Once people started involving those from your Friday night group into other activities you folded that as well. Then there is your whole attitude to Sharlott. What did you expect of her? You wanted her to change and when she didn’t conform as you thought she would you wiped her off after she went home I don’t see the work of the Holy Spirit in anything I have said here so far. How do you justify and show any of this to be guided by God?
By the way you don’t own Jacqui or your child. They belong to God you don’t have the right to cripple their emotions and dictate their choices in life. That is why James and Romans talk about trials building character that in turn causes us to trust God. It doesn’t say be cruel to your children for their own good. It does say don’t provoke your children to wrath. Later when they discover what you did was wrong you are going to have to explain your actions to them and maybe to God as well.
Let’s talk about deception for a while. Yes I acted deceptively so did you. Instead of confronting me if Jacqui and I were to close or in another room alone (mostly on opposite sides) you sent your daughter to spy on us and report back. Then you would interrogate Jacqui when I wasn’t around you would say nothing to me and be as sweet as sugar to my face but you would threaten her. How gutless not to mention two faced that is. Which one of Gothard’s seminars did you glean that behaviour from? What kind of testimony and witness is that to yours and Robyn’s daughters?
Then there is the innocent act of Jacqui and I comparing skin complexion at the kitchen table. No Robyn I didn’t miss the look you were giving her and I know what you said to her afterwards. Why didn’t either of you say something to me? It seems there was a lot of very unchristian blackmail and threats going on behind my back. I think the word is control right? Isn’t it ironic how that is the very behaviour you accused Leanne Shaw Of? I can see now why you didn’t get on with her you’re both alike!
You said with your mouth that Gothard was wrong in many ways then you start trying to push his doctrines onto me. You criticised the Shaw’s and McPherson’s for taking Gothard’s teaching as Gospel truth however behind closed doors where outsiders don’t see you, you adhere to them yourself.
Robyn told me when it all came to light that we didn’t have permission to have feelings for each other, not in those words but that was the intent. I need to ask you where you find that in scripture Greg. Next Robyn told me that basically you will choose her husband for her. Where do you find that law in the bible Greg
Then there is the law of image. Your and Robyn’s daughters are only ever allowed to express the emotions in public that are positive or pleasing to God and reflect your authority over them and their submission to you. There is such a thing as children obeying their parents but not to the point of it being abusive. Can you show me the precedent for this anywhere? Where does the bible say have bright eyes and always put on a happy face? It doesn’t! What you need to do is go through your bible and rip anything out that disagrees with Bill. Most of the Psalms, Lamentations Romans 4, 5, 8 and 12, 1 and 2 Peter and most of the book of James.
It is one thing to openly hold to a false doctrine because you believe it and are deceived it is entirely another thing to do it coercively because you know others know it’s wrong and you most likely do as well. That is control at its best and a lesser form of sadism at its worst. The only thing this really comes down to is how this reflects on you and your image to other people. It is the appearance of Godliness it is the same external image that Christ rebuked the Pharisees for. Ironically enough Jacqui and Kat are good examples of what Godly women are meant to be although you asking me about the way Kat dressed was not about her but your pride.
While editing this you had a little talk with Andrew Craig didn’t you Greg? So much for your gracious exit they say you can only hide your true colours for so long; in other words your sins will find you out. But then I saw your real character long ago proud and self-righteous I think the terms are. And you think you were doing Andrews job? No you couldn’t do Andrews job you’re way to rigid, critical back stabbing, legalistic and controlling. He has never said a bad word about you not even after the way you spoke to him. That is the true measure of the man of God’s character maybe you should read I Corinthians 13 over a few times. And then after this you ring him to apologise as you did to me, that was more about you trying to clear your conscience I doubt your sincerity
There is much more I could say but I won’t because it is just my objections to the way you treat others behind their backs.
I really don’t care if you thought I was too old for Jacqui or that my health may not be that great although I think the real reason is about how it all reflects on you so I don’t care if you approve of me or not.
Family services and Lutheran care would be quite interested in what occured while I stayed under your roof. I have evidence of emotional psychological and spiritual abuse. I really mean to say here that if I was you I wouldn’t go forward with ever fostering children. If I had my way you would be lucky if you ever had supervised access with your own children but then by the time you left gaol they would all be emancipated anyway. Legally speaking Jacqui already is, you can’t tell her where she can live who she can see what she can wear or whom she can marry. Of course if she doesn’t then she is stepping out from under God’s umbrella of authority which appears to be you even though Bill got that one wrong as well. Here’s a law for you deprivation of liberty. Here is another one… financial abuse; you can find them all clearly written under the domestic violence act.
I don’t hold any grudge against you however as you can tell I am angry at you. I am trying to love you although I find that incredibly difficult. You both have a lot of growing up to do in Christ and I would ask you to give serious thought to and examination of your beliefs especially regarding Bill Gothard
I am guessing here however I think you see Jacqui as rebellious as a younger version of Robyn who would go with anyone who showed her some affection. Firstly thanks for the vote of confidence secondly that wasn’t what drew me to her. I admire Jacqui for her modesty she never threw herself at me at any time or hinted about her feelings for me until it was made obvious by her to me. Even that was modest I love Jacqui. We both believe very strongly that God gave us permission to be together but you think you know better than both us and God. I have a fair idea that you are running about trying to control this whole situation. You may very well have interfered in what God has allowed in his Grace. I hope you can live with the consequences of playing God with other people’s lives because they are going to be severe.
Regardless of what I may have lost by doing this I am putting the care of others before what I want.
Chris Symonds
Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Deu 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Deu 18:16 “This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’
Deu 18:17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
Deu 18:18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Deu 18:19 ‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Deu 18:20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
Deu 18:21 “You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’
Deu 18:22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Be very careful how you respond to this letter I would advise you to prayerfully consider any reply you give.
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Me too… I did how ever warn her Husband that if he does the wrong thing by her a whole world of hurt will fall on him…
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Thank you for posting all of that, Chris. It’s an excellent illustration of how Bill Gothard’s teachings have played havoc with people’s lives and emotions an relationships. I hope that you have moved on and found someone for yourself.
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I’m still working on finding someone myself. Partly the problem is that I couldn’t afford therapy for decades; now with the ACA I’m finally seeing someone regularly and I’m hoping I can learn to release my rage against my upbringing so that I don’t keep pushing away women who are interested in me.
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All of this is such excellent proof that, while there may be salvation in Christ, there is no salvation in Gothard. Just guilt, hatred, and pain.
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Good for you, Dash. I wish you well in your recovery. Therapy is a lot of hard work, but I think you will thank yourself down the road.
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Dash. I moved on but no haven’t found anyone else. Sadly a few others who hold IBLP views made a point of targeting my reputation. So much for not listening to a bad report. It seems these people have license to go on a witch hunt and create bad reports on others. Their turn will come in God’s good time. I am living my life. I am not angry at them, I aggressively oppose the views they hold to and counteract them with scripture the rest is in God’s hands
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Keri said, “My husband and I didn’t grow up in Christian homes. We made mistakes so when we started hearing all these idea’s about kids growing up a better way (that’s how it was presented) it sounded good and better to us. Of course parents don’t honestly want their kids to make the same mistakes they did.”
Yeah. Sounds like you had the same reasons that we had.
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Dash said: The two primary defenses I hear from Gothard apologists are:
1. “Gothard is a good man! With good intentions! He meant well! He spent his whole life giving us God’s teachings! Leave him alone!”
A: NO. Gothard is a sick twisted pervert. He’s a narcissistic sadist who spent 50 years using twisted, legalistic distortions of the Bible to beat people into submission and bend them to his own personal will. He is a horror of a human being.
2. “Our family has been involved with IBLP and ATI for [x] years! We’re doing GREAT! Gothard’s teachings have opened our eyes and brought joy and newness to our lives! You’re all unrepentant sinners who couldn’t hack the program!”
A: Seriously, we’ve been over this. Thousands of families who finally wised up and got out have reported firsthand the misery, damage, and abuse that Gothard’s lies precipitate. If you still think Gothard’s distortions are positive representations of the blood of Christ, you’re either stupid, crazy, or sociopathic.
Dash, let me add a third that I have been seeing on FB this week.
3. “You can’t blame the parents for the son’s bad choices. We ourselves have had children walk away from our family, from the faith, but we are not to blame for the choices they are making.”
(I’m not sure if the blame is being laid on the offspring, or on God’s sovereign will, but the parents are saying that they are doing their best and so they can’t be blamed for the outcome. Just like the Duggar parents have only done/are doing their best and so, can’t be blamed.)
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(And let me emphasize that #3 above is not being said in isolation, but from people who are also insisting on the “truth” of #s 1 and 2 as Dash outlined them.)
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Free Woman: “brainwashed”
Yes, that is it, exactly. And only the Holy Spirit can set them free. They are too entrenched, too invested, have too much faith in the System to hear any criticism against it.
But when the Holy Spirit begins to move in their hearts, when the questions can’t be squelched anymore, or explained away — and perhaps it will take tragedy and heartbreak to reach that point, God help them; and perhaps it won’t (I wish it had been so for us) — then they will be able to look for and find the voices of survivors, and begin to find their way out of this horrible slavery to law and sin and hopelessness.
I bless SSB and TWW and others who maintain in the face of fierce opposition.
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Georgia mom Jessica to Anna Duggar. Message: Teach our daughters to breathe fire! Amen, Jessica!!!
http://www.11alive.com/story/life/2015/08/25/viral-raise-them-breathe-fire-t-shirts-coming/32335137/
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That’s a great article, Velour!
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This is certainly disturbing. http://gawker.com/is-this-where-josh-duggar-is-in-sex-rehab-1726687142
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A Georgia Mom’s Open Letter Regarding Anna Duggar
JESSICA KIRKLAND’S FULL ‘BREATHE FIRE’ POST
I know everybody is laughing about this Josh Duggar story. Oh, a DUGGAR on Ashley Madison, it’s so rich! I wish more people would talk about Anna. I normally keep things light on Facebook, but let’s talk about Anna. Let me tell you: Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience (or life experience, for that matter) and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle. Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing she could do, was to be chaste and proper, a devout wife, and a mother. Anna Duggar did that! Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get-go and this is what she got in reward- a husband who she found out, in the span of six months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible. While she was fulfilling her “duty” of providing him with four children and raising them. She lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and Godly and in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. “Be this,” they told her. She was. It wasn’t enough.
What is Anna Duggar supposed to do? She can’t divorce because the religious environment she was brought up would blame her and ostracize her for it. Even if she would risk that, she has no education and no work experience to fall back on, so how does she support her kids? From where could she summon the ability to turn her back on everything she ever held to be sacred and safe? Her beliefs, the very thing she would turn to for comfort in this kind of crisis, are the VERY REASON she is in this predicament in the first place. How can she reconcile this? Her parents have utterly, utterly failed her. Think of this: somewhere, Anna Duggar is sitting in prayer, praying not for the strength to get out and stand on her own, but for the strength to stand by this man she is unfortunately married to. To lower herself so that he may rise up on her back.
As a mother of daughters, this makes me ill. Parents, WE MUST DO BETTER BY OUR DAUGHTERS. Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves. They aren’t given it. They assume it and take it. But you have to teach them to do it, that they can do it. We HAVE to teach our daughters that they are not beholden to men like this. That they don’t have to marry a man their father deems ‘acceptable’ and then stay married to that man long, long after he proved himself UNACCEPTABLE. Educate them. Empower them. Give them the tools they need to survive, on their own if they must. Josh Duggar should be cowering in fear of Anna Duggar right now. Cowering. He isn’t, but he should be. He should be quaking in fear that the house might fall down around them if he’s in the same room as she. Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must. To say “I don’t deserve this, and my children don’t deserve this.” I wish someone had ever, just once, told Anna she was capable of this. That she knew she is. As for my girls, I’ll raise them to think they breathe fire.
.
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Jessica Kirkland kicks ass.
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@Dash,
Indeed! Jessica Kirkland did a FANTASTIC job. She wrote that open letter and posted it on her own Facebook page. Her friends and family were so impressed that it started spreading, and went viral around the world.
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And who a couple months ago (Summer 2017) proclaimed that God Hath Raised Up Donald Trump to lead us in (nuclear?) War Against North Korea. (To much Praise and Adoration.)
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