***
Gender confusion, fuzzy lines, CBMW, Franklin Graham, and Target removing signs
***
“God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” Genesis 1:27 NASB
This tweet has caused quite an uproar!! Some people love it, some people hate it.
Recently, Target announced a new change to their stores and this new change has gone viral. There are many big-name Christian leaders speaking out against this move. What exactly did Target say? Here is the gist from the Target website:
Right now, our teams are working across the store to identify areas where we can phase out gender-based signage to help strike a better balance. For example, in the kids’ Bedding area, signs will no longer feature suggestions for boys or girls, just kids.
So, in other words, when you see pink Barbie doll bedding, you won’t see a sign above the aisle saying “girl bedding.” Likewise, you will not a Boys’ Legos sign.
***
What is the beef? Why are Christians so upset?
Part 1 – Grant Castleberry of CBMW
***
Grant Castleberry, Executive Director at The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW), has a big-time problem with Target and wrote, Missing the Target: Some Brief Thoughts on Target’s Cultural Capitulation. I’m sensing fear in these ominous words:
But in a world where the very concept of gender is being neutralized, and in a society where parents themselves are trying to outrun their own gender identities, dragging their children onto their own dark labyrinths (look no further than Bruce Jenner at the ESPY’s), this only adds to the problem.
Rather than reinforcing maleness and femaleness, this confuses it.
Instead of helping guide children towards embracing who they actually are, this blurs reality.
I’m sorry, Grant. I can assure you that when my daughter, Hannah, was a little girl and played with Legos (“boy” Legos), she was not confused about her gender. She still wore dresses and wanted to see how far the skirt would twirl. When my son changed his baby doll’s diaper and wore the doll in a carrier like I wore my babies, he didn’t lose his maleness. Instead, he learned how to nurture babies, a gift and skill he will use when he becomes a father. He can’t wait to become a dad.
More from Mr. Castleberry:
Despite the culture’s belief that we can outrun our gender—and the God of the universe who created it—we are ultimately destined to be as God has intended: male and female.
Come on. we are talking about sheets and toys, for crying out loud. Sheets and toys do not make a gender! Where is he getting this stuff?
The Bible teaches that men are wired by God to protect and to pursue, so it is not surprising that they naturally like toys that by-and-large involve fighting, building, and racing. Women, on the other hand, are wired by God to nurture and to be pursued, so it is also not surprising that they largely enjoy playing with American Girl Dolls, Barbies, and Disney princess dresses.
I would really like to see the Bible verses on this.
The problem with gender roles for the secular mind, and in this case, gender-designated signs for the toy aisles at Target, is that they confine.
Based on how my children played with toys, I think the signs did confine. Thankfully, my daughter didn’t mind shopping in the boy aisle when looking for her Legos. Why should our children be limited in what they play with or what they sleep on? When we talk about confining, CBMW and their like-minded friends are promoting confinement and calling it Biblical. To them, it’s inappropriate for a dad to be a stay-at-home dad while mom works full time. To them, a woman should not be in the military or have positions of authority over men. Castleberry continues:
After all God’s good design, which includes our gender, is not meant to restrict, but to enable us to flourish.
I agree that God’s design enables us to flourish, but not if you read much of CBMW. Their co-founder, Wayne Grudem has 83 rules for what women can and cannot do in the church. Those are restrictions and many of those rules are nowhere to be found in the Bible. The reality is CBMW and complementarians have a prescription formula for what they (read: men) deem women can or cannot do. Women, you do not have a voice in this matter.
In Marg Mowczko’s article, 25 Biblical Roles for Biblical Women, we see women doing far more than what Council for Biblical Manhood (CBMW) and Womanhood and The Gospel Coalition think “Biblical” women should be doing, here are just a few so-called manly jobs that God ordained women in the Bible to do:
- Deborah led and judged Israel
- Sheerah built towns
- Daughters of Shallum helped to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem
- Co-worker or laborer in the Gospel: Euodia, Syntyche, Junia, Phoebe, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, etc.
Back to Grant Castleberry’s article:
Ultimately, God has created boys and girls for more than toys.
Amen, I can agree with that!
He’s created them for a purpose far greater than Mattel or American Girl Doll.
Amen, I can agree with that, too!
He’s created every boy and girl for himself, to display his image and glory in the world. And he has created them as male and female.
Amen, and that doesn’t mean abiding by the rules and restrictions of CBMW – the restrictions they call “Biblical,” when in fact they are not.
And no Target sign can change that.
Okay, wait, so why the article and griping about the Target signs if they know removing Target signs isn’t going to change a thing?
Part 2 – Franklin Graham Speaks Out
Franklin Graham has also spoken out publicly against Target. Here are a couple of recent tweets:
**
**
Toys have nothing to do with gender.
**
**
Here is what Graham posted on his Facebook page:
The Washington Post reports that Target will stop using gender specific signage in their stores. In order to be gender-neutral, they won’t be separating things like toys and bedding into boys’ and girls’ sections. Oh really? And they won’t be using pink and blue colors to identify sexes. I think Target may be forgetting who has made their stores strong. It’s not gender-neutral people out there—it’s working American families, fathers and mothers with boys and girls they love. What’s next? Are they going to try to make people believe that pink or blue baby showers are politically incorrect?
Pink for girls and blue for boys is a cultural fad. Franklin has obviously bought into our culture by adopting this fad.
Take a look at this pretty girl. Isn’t she sweet? Look at the ruffles on her dress. Are those patent leather shoes?
Ok, I lied. This is really Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1880s.
I have pictures of my great-grandma and her brother from the late 1800s. Both siblings wore white dresses and had long hair. We might have a difficult time distinguishing between boys and girls when looking at pictures like this unless there was some other gender-specific accessory.
I read an article on Smithsonian.com, When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink? discussing the history of children’s clothing in America. Jo B. Paoletti, historian at the University of Maryland wrote the book, Pink and Blue: Telling the Girls From the Boys in America, about gender and color of children’s clothes:
The march toward gender-specific clothes was neither linear nor rapid. Pink and blue arrived, along with other pastels, as colors for babies in the mid-19th century, yet the two colors were not promoted as gender signifiers until just before World War I—and even then, it took time for popular culture to sort things out.
The article then goes on to say first it was pink for boys and blue for girls, and then later the US settled into pink for girls and boys for blue. Franklin Graham’s insistence in keeping with a cultural fad is just that, a cultural fad. He’s stepping on his celebrity Christian leader soapbox spouting off a bunch of extra hooey. When you’re a Christian celebrity leader, people seem to think whatever you say is stamped with the Biblical seal of approval and people buy it.
Mr. Graham continues:
I have news for them and for everyone else—God created two different genders. Jesus said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female (Matthew 19:4). You can’t get any clearer than that.
I don’t remember anything in that verse about pink for girl and blue for boy. The Bible doesn’t talk about boys not being able to sleep on Cinderella sheets or girls not playing with pirate Legos or any other boy toy, for that matter.
If you agree, share in the comments below—and let Target know what you think. Let them know that you are perfectly willing to shop where the genders God created are appreciated. (1-800-440-0680) Target is way off-target on this one!
Sorry, Franklin and Grant, when I read your words, all I see is blah, blah, blah.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
This story epitomizes all that is wrong with American Evangelicalism.
As for Grudem, the man lacks any credibility and obviously displays a callous heart towards the victims of sexual abuse. He was proud to rise to the defense of C.J. Mahaney, speaking in his new church plant in Louisville a few years ago. He still teaches at the Sovereign Grace Churches 9 month “Pastors College.” This in spite of the fact that Nathan Morales was convicted of 5 counts of sexually abusing young boys while in a leadership position at Mahaney’s church. This in spite of the fact that Grant Layman, an assistant pastor in Mahaney’s church at the time, and Mahaney’s brother-in-law testified at the Morales trial that church leadership knew of the abuse, knew they should alert law enforcement, but chose not to.
Until such time as Grudem repents of his actions and apologizes to the victims who suffered abuse while attending a Sovereign Grace church I will have nothing but disrespect for the man. Odds are I will go to my grave holding Grudem in low esteem.
https://thouarttheman.org/2013/07/08/the-hall-of-shame/
LikeLiked by 2 people
I understand Target wanted to be transparent about the change but why make a big deal of it by announcing it? They essentially painted a “target” on their backs once the fundegelicals got word of this new policy. Better to have just started replacing the gender specific signs without any hullabaloo.
LikeLike
When I look for clothing for boys or girls it would make it easier to find the section I’m looking for by the proper signage. I don’t really like to shop anymore and standing for long periods of time is not something that is easy either. My mind works in section mode and for ease of finding what I want I’d prefer they leave the signs alone. I feel the same way with the grocery store layout. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender line drawing. That being said, I have a daughter that wanted a Pretty Pretty Princess game when she was young. All of the kids played this game and it was my boys that usually won the game and were all done up in play jewelry and a crown on their heads. I have pictures to prove it. This did not make them feminine or want to be a girl. It made them want to win. It was a game!!!
When my kids were growing up Legos were just Legos. The boys and girls played with them. They were not gender specific. Lincoln logs were the same. Are their girl Lincoln logs now? I’ve lost track. The boys played with their sisters Barbie and Ken dolls with them as they all bonded. Outside of dump trucks, cars, matchbox cars and race tracks I can’t remember any real boy specific things that they ever wanted.
I like the reference in the OT to women as Ezer’s, strong warriors. I’m sure this is forgotten by the gentlemen who feel the need for separating girl and boy toys. Toys are such a non issue. I feel sorry for those like Bruce Jenner that feel the need to surgically distort their bodies the way they have. They don’t understand they were perfect just as they are/were. I also feel sorry for these men who have to nit pick over such petty issues.
LikeLike
It’s time to have a party! A manure pitching party that is held when the animal pens get pretty deep. All religious leaders that blindly buy into the “aggressive pursuit theory (male oriented) and the passive being pursued theory (female oriented)” are invited to the farm for some good wholesome hard work complete with plenty of stink, sweat, and possibly some blistered hands if not already calloused. There is no gender requirement, for males and females throughout the ages have had to do this important smelly job in working towards one goal:
It is called getting the job done regardless of whether you are male or female. Likewise, our LORD will use anyone, whether male or female, for His Name’s Sake, in sharing the Gospel in leading people to Him. Did not our LORD even use a donkey/ass to speak to a foolish man in the Old Testament? Just sayin……
Our daughter’s favorite color is blue so then is she committing an authoritarian religious cultural sin?
LikeLiked by 3 people
“These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. “(John 15:17-19 KJV)
What concerns me most about these conversations is the wolf pack mentality that takes over. Why is it ok for a corporation like Target to express their views but not ok for Graham and others to express theirs? This intolerance espoused by “tolerant” people is hypocritical at best. Let us love one another and pray for those we disagree with.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Katy,my grandmother’s favorite colour was blue–any shade of blue. And there are any number of family pix with little boys and girls all dressed up in dresses, too. That was the fashion then. (I bet was also a lot more practical when it came time to change babies’ diapers).
I think these guys need to stop being goofy, & start teaching Scripture–not their personal opinions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Annie,
No one is telling Graham not to express his views. We are just simply stating that he is wrong and why that is so. That’s not the same thing as saying he isn’t allowed to express his views.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Annie, as far as I am concerned Target can arrange their store however they wish. If it bothers me I will shop somewhere else. What does bother me is our American evangelical Christian leaders who feel it necessary to make a big issue of this. These guys are free to say whatever they want, but really, are there not more important issues out there? Kevin DeYoung recently authored a book titled “Crazy Busy.” I did not read it, but the gist seems to be that we are all running around frazzled because of all we are trying to get done in a day. Ask anyone of these celebrity Christian leaders if they have too much on their plates and I am sure they would all answer in the affirmative. So if that is the case, why waste the time on Target’s store layout? Call me skeptical, but I would submit it is probably because it makes for a good fund raising letter.
I am doubtful that when I am called to give an account of my life I will get an extra jewel in my crown because I used my influence to call into question Target’s shelf layout.
So much to do, so little time. Tough choices – visit one of the “least of these” in prison or speak up about Target ruining the morality of the nation by re-labeling their shelves.
As I said initially, this story epitomizes all that is wrong with American Evangelicalism.
God bless ‘merica!
LikeLiked by 3 people
Jesus, expressing His concerns in love….”You brood of vipers, you hypocrites, you white-washed tombs, etc.” Yes, Jesus chose His Words very carefully in addressing the hearts/mouths of people in His day and I believe He is still speaking to us today. We are speaking of leaders/teachers/and preachers that are having a monumental influence within the realm of Christianity and their teachings DO affect people and influence them tremendously. And when people do not read the Holy Scriptures for themselves in allowing the Holy Spirit to lead, teach, and minister to their souls, then it becomes easy to allow other people of great influence to impact your faith in Jesus, the Christ.
For too many years, I did allow these types and shadows of teachings from men such as those posted, to permeate my being and frankly, it messed up my faith in Christ alone, in allowing their philosophies emulating from their own vain imaginations to permeate my being/spirituality. When teachers speak foolishness, whether man or woman, we are allowed to address it in the public forum with words of caution and discernment.
I may be called out as a feminist here for speaking these words, but I wonder how these teachers address the fact that many women are aggressive and pursuers in our culture; in the work force, in social venues, in areas pertaining to family values, etc. Would these women be called terrible sinners for taking the bull by the horns and succeeding in this life? Would these types of male authoritarian figures become jealous, envious, and full of strife if the woman were to succeed beyond themselves?
I have heard far too many gender oriented sermons (a man’s place and a woman’s place) in our society and just have to cry at times when many of us have been called to do what these men/preachers/teachers would call a “man’s job.” Yep, I work in what is traditionally called a man’s job, in a man’s world, and deal with men on a regular basis…….and at times I do have to bite my tongue when I am belittled, mocked, and laughed at by men, it happens. And God is SO GOOD to give me the right Scriptures to sooth my bleeding soul so as to not speak evil in return.
So please forgive me if my phraseology comes across coarser than volcanic rock, there are times when one must shed a tear at man’s stupidity.
And Zooey….a resounding AMEN sister! A wonderful memory of your grandmother….and I would love to see those pics.
LikeLiked by 2 people
People keep confusing sex and gender, and it’s really irritating. Sex has to do with your genitals, gender is a social construct. And as you rightly stated, the Bible says plenty on sex but nothing on gender.
LikeLiked by 2 people
What a ridiculous petty thing for Franklin to waste his influence on.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Franklin Graham.
Type example of the Spiritual version of “Rags to Riches to Rags in three generations.”
LikeLike
@CookingWithDogs:
Maybe it was for the free publicity?
Piss off the Fundagelicals and you get all this self-energizing publicity machine without having to pay a dime! Hollywood learned this with Last Temptation of Christ, and in local SF fandom “The Christians Are Denouncing It!” was a sign it had to be good. Just wind ’em up and let them go…
LikeLike
@2Sam127:
Use the proper names, Sam.
It’s “WAYNEGRUDEMGOWAYNEGRUDEM!” and “Chuckles Mahaney” or “The HUMBLE One (chuckle chuckle).” Like “Douggie ESQUIRE(TM)” and “Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant Wilson”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
How does that differ from “The Man PENETRATES, COLONIZES, CONQUERS, PLANTS; the Woman lies back and accepts”?
P.S. The majority of G4 My Little Pony fans (outside the little-girl target demographic) are teen to young-adult males.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good point, Beth.
I’m cracking up. I just got out of my psychology class and during the lecture, my professor mentioned FDR and the old pink for boys, blue for girls. We both happened to read the same old Smithsonian article on the same day. What a coincidence!
LikeLiked by 1 person
**Like
Julie Anne
Beth
LikeLike
I applaude Target’s announcement and believe this move will be even more beneficial for boys. Girls generally have no problem wandering through the “boy’s toy section”, but boys are afraid of being stigmatized. My younger brothers wanted toy vacuum cleaners and easy bake ovens. Unfortunately, they secretly played with them and would never tell the other boys. They would not be caught dead or alive in a girl’s section. With Target’s new marketing, it will be much easier for this generation’s boys to interact with a wider variety of toys without the fear of being caught in the “girl’s department”.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Another article on the subject:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2015/july/how-we-made-too-much-of-gender.html?paging=off
LikeLike
Franklin Graham is a man who has lived comfortably on the coat tails of his Dad.
He sure spends a lot of time criticizing others while he pulls down almost a million in salary from his “non-profit” ministries-one of them is ironically named Samartians Purse.
Maybe they could re-name it to Franklin’s Slush Fund.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The wide variety of personalities in men and women found in the Bible shows that as sexes neither are hardwired for much of anything related to gender. Perhaps Mr. Graham and Mr. Castleberry could re-read the Bible with that in mind and see for themselves.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Beth Caplin The problem is that their “theology” hinges on gender and sex being the same. I think it’s sad how fragile they think it all is. For example, a few years ago I was mistaken for a girl by a waitress in Panera. I giggled and that was it. According to these guys, I should have been mortified.
I agree with HUG, though; I think Target mentioned this because they know how it drives so many Christians up a wall.
LikeLike
Target also recently changed their policy to allow women to breastfeed openly in their stores, fitting rooms especially. Makes things a heck of a lot easier for mommies with tired babies who are just trying to make it through the day.
I hated dolls as a child. I never knew what to do with them. I wanted to go fishing or have fort wars with my brothers; yet I ended up as a great cook and homemaker, if I do say so myself, and I love being a mom. My step-daughter spent a month in Africa last year, guiding wild game hunts, but can still cook a gourmet meal with the best of them, and has the greatest mothering instinct (she mostly uses it on things that have fur, but it’s all the same, I say). Gender roles are things that cultures cook up to keep things organized and avoid conflict in small communities. Often they are used to keep certain people in control and other people as servant figures.
Maybe CBMW/Franklin Graham would have been happier if Target had decided to play this song on a loop in their stores:
LikeLiked by 2 people
CBMW guy said:
Not me. When I was a girl, I preferred playing with either toys considered to be for boys or gender neutral stuff.
I mostly hated dolls. I did not like Barbie or crying dolls or other girly things.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Annie said
I don’t think anyone here is against Graham spouting off his views.
Some of us here are just saying his views on this are ridiculous and re-enforcing sexist stereotypes that have no biblical backing.
A lot of the things Graham and CBMW buddies think are examples of biblical womanhood are socially constructed and change over time. For instance:
_4 Things Now Considered Manly (Were Created for Ladies Only)_
LikeLike
I am so disappointed by Franklin Graham, who doesn’t have anywhere near his father’s understanding of God.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Song of a River – – – I laughed until I cried at that video. haha
LikeLiked by 2 people
I find it disappointing that this is considered an important issue to these guys. Really?
LikeLike
I’m laughing at this comment by Mr. Castleberry:
I never played with American Girl dolls, Barbie, but I may have had a Disney princess dress.
Nevertheless, day in and day out, I compete with men. As a woman in a male dominated industry, I not only compete with men, I lead men. And they willingly and enthusiastically follow me.
LikeLike
It is unfortunate that there has been such bad teaching in our culture and churches on what each gender is and is not “supposed” to do. My husband wanted to play the piano when he was a child but his Dad wouldn’t let him because he said it was for sissies (?sp). When I was growing up I was taught that women were stupid. I didn’t want to be a “stupid” woman or look like one. So I didn’t carry a purse, wear dresses and was the first girl to take auto in school. I became very independent. So when the Lord saved me when I was 28 I had a difficult time listening to Bible studies about submission to men and what women were not allowed to do. I realize it is difficult for men also. The churches me and my husband have attended taught male leadership. Where the husband makes the final decision, you are to obey him and you will be blessed. I kept trying to let him be the leader but he just doesn’t have it in him. In fact he said he was always making such bad decisions he didn’t want to make them anymore. So finally we realized it is ok if he doesn’t have the ability, I am fine with mostly being the leader😊. It disturbs me how women are suppressed and abused in churches. And I let my kids play with whatever toys they want, though my husband did draw the line in one area and wouldn’t let my son take naked Barbie dolls in public LOL, he is from the old school, grew up in the 1950’s….
LikeLiked by 1 person
Just wanted to let you know that this post inspired me to write a blog post. I linked back to this article. You can read it here: https://llawrenceauthor.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/of-boxes-and-labels/
LikeLike
So have Franklin Graham and others who are against Target taking away boy and girl signs gone after stores who never had signs like that in the first place and demanded they install them?
LikeLiked by 2 people
I taught my boys how to cook, how to knit, and sew. The son I mentioned in the article also “nursed” his baby doll. What do you expect? He saw his mama popping out babies and nursing. It makes sense that he would want to feed his baby the only way he knew babies are fed. For the record, I asked if it was okay to disclose this and he was absolutely fine. He said that all children mimic their parents.
If some of these guys are so worried about boys playing with girl toys, then why aren’t they taking their boys to work with them, instead of leaving them home with mom and sisters who are obviously girls? The aforementioned son just canned some salsa the other night and will be canning tomatoes tonight. His future wife is going to be blown away. I guess she can pretend she’s a boy. No, that won’t work.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I am excited about Target removing the obnoxious pink and blue aisle system from their toy section. But really it’s not like they are the first one’s to not label boy and girl toy aisles. Barnes and Noble bookstore already has all of it’s toys in one section without signage indicating gender. They have better toys than Target anyway. It is silly these guys making a huge deal about shelving of toys. But I guess with that awful list of restrictions on women it is not a surprise.
LikeLike
Frankly, I’ve never noticed the signs in any store’s toy department, and it wouldn’t matter anyway. I buy what I want to buy. My kids pick out what they want to pick out. A sign isn’t going to determine that.
What, is the store security going to monitor that parents and kids are purchasing “gender appropriate toys?” Maybe Franklin Graham would like them to? Maybe the checkout register should ping the UPC codes of toys so the cashier can verify your “gender appropriate” purchase. This is all ridiculous. Doesn’t Graham have anything better to do?
LikeLike
OK, I’ll bite, what’s an “American Girl Doll”?
“Just like Barbie, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?
LikeLike
@Minnie:
I wouldn’t call it “obnoxious”. More like they were using a simple color-coding that doesn’t work any more.
LikeLike
@Daisy:
My first car was a ’65 Stang (originally a “cute little woman’s car”), so that list was a real kicker.
Getting some mileage out of it in my current build for IPMS “Cruise Night” (local chapter’s annual car modellers’ month) — a 1/24 scale ’65 Stang with paint job & trim inspired by a My Little Pony main character (mare, of course — a Pony Car for a Pony). I’ll be sure to mention the Stang originally being a car for young women going for their MRS degree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
American Girl dolls are very popular and very expensive dolls based on a book series by the same name. It’s actually a neat concept, in which each American Girl is from a featured time in history. The books talk about what the girls would have worn, what chores they might have done, what toys they might have played with. I don’t know how “deep” the books are, the series has grown tremendously though.
LikeLike
I actually thought the old colors were ugly and distracting apart from there annoying gender stereotype connotations. I was in target today and the new wallpaper looks so much nicer. Most of the toys are on the same rows as before. Only a few things seem to have been moved to organize more by type. I feel that these guys are being truly ridiculous. There are lots on stores that never had pink and blue aisles or boy and girl signs and they never cared before.
LikeLike
Ironically, when I read what these two men have written on this “issue”, I find myself picturing them wearing a string of pearls. After all, it sounds like they need something to clutch whilst agonizing over Target, its corruption of boys and girls, and the destruction of America.
Apologies if anyone finds this sexist or stereotypical. But Castleberry and Graham just make it soooooo easy.
LikeLike
When I was 2-3 years old a neighbor gave me this box of toys including this huge doll that was almost as big as me. Her kids no longer played with these items so she cleaned out the closet. That doll was my new buddy and I insisted on taking her/him ( not sure but I think it was a unisex doll ) everywhere. My father was less then trilled, my mom couldn’t have cared less but it drove my sisters up the wall. They were sure I would grow up to be gay or a cross dresser, or even something weirder like that preacher that got caught in his office with a very high end sex doll.
When my grandmother came to visit she took my buddy away and stuck him on a shelf in the laundry room. That night I got up and launched a rescue mission. I stood on a chair, climbed on the dryer and got my doll. Just because of all this over reaction about boy stuff / girl stuff I was at great risk. I could have broke my neck climbing up there to get that doll and for what ? Was Fundie land really threatened by a toddler & a doll ?
You know sometimes I wonder if these overly focused pastors are driven by their own obcession to dwell on these issues. They seem overly concerned with appearing manly when they are often kind of, well feminine. Years ago I was in church and this visiting pastor talked about mothers raising sissys by taking them to haircuttery instead of a barber. He then mentioned wearing a suit set you apart from men that are feminine. A friend sitting next to me ( neither of us were wearing suits) leaned over and said , ” you know Scott this guy is a weirdo. What you want to bet he is wearing women’s lingerie under that suit”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
When I was a kid my Donnie and Marie Osmond dolls played right next to my big set of Star Wars figures – complete with Cantina scene, landspeeder and x-wing fighter. Because my son was the second born with an older sister, he spent time playing with My Little Ponies, Polly Pockets and Littlest Pet Shop along with his Matchbox cars.
Why are people so worked up about a toy not being in a specified aisle? If someone goes shopping for a doll and can’t find it in a toy section, then it’s time to go get a vision check.
LikeLike
To all of the founders of any manhood and womanhood organization who use the Bible as their battleground for such issues, I would have to ask, “Is making a big deal out of Target’s business really a Gospel of our LORD Jesus issue? Does Jesus really care what these men are calling out……really?”
And it occurred to me while in deep thought, if Franklin Graham’s philanthropic organization is called “Samaritan’s Purse,” well then, purses in our culture are associated with women, right? How many men do you see on the street’s wearing, carrying, or man handling a purse? So his organization takes on a more feminine name rather than a title that is more “gender neutral.”
LikeLike
Scott said,
For whatever reason, your post triggered thoughts of one or two fundy stories I saw a year ago.
I might be mixing up stories here – but there was a You Tube video by a preacher (who I think was fundamentalist) who was telling parents to smack their sons if the sons were effeminate (hope I spelled that right).
I think it was that same video / preacher where he told the parents to tell their tom boy daughters that girls playing sports was okay but the rest of the time, young ladies should dress like girly young ladies, have long hair, and wear make up. It was so freaking condescending.
I have no idea if that video (or either one, if it was two) is/ are still up on You Tube. They might have been deleted.
I think the preacher who talked about “smacking sons” later apologized for it?
This story was reported by main stream media, IIRC, and few Christian blogs at the time.
_North Carolina Pastor Jokes About Physically Abusing ‘Effeminate’ Boys_
LikeLike
HUG said,
Check out the
_Audi R8 Hello Kitty (Car)_
That may or may not be up your alley. I thought it was amusing.
LikeLike
Ugh! Those “pastor’s” words…I can’t think of anything else to say!
LikeLiked by 1 person
HUG,
Just curious. What is the draw with My Little Pony?
LikeLike
@ Loura Shares a Story.
I know, he was pretty awful.
One of the interesting things about undergoing a faith crisis – I accepted Christ as a kid, but have been having severe doubts about the faith the last handful of years – is that in the course of things, you start visiting other sites, forums, or blogs by Non-Christians. (I used to primarily associate or visit Christian sites.)
I should note, too, that when I began having doubts, my first course of action was to talk to or visit sites by conservative Christians.
I did not make a bee-line for sites by atheists or skeptics (as one of my Christian friends keeps assuming).
Now, I am not hostile to Christians or Christianity themselves, even in my current state of quasi- doubt, or whatever you want to call it, but I am turned off by abusive churches, and that sort of thing.
The interesting thing is that by visiting blogs and forums by atheists or liberals (I’m right wing myself), you will find more reporting about the strange or abusive stuff that self-professing Christians and churches are engaging in.
That link I gave you above is to an atheistic blog, though that story was covered by a few Christian ones too.
If a story is REALLY big, like the Mark Driscoll (former preacher at Mars Hill) blow up, it will be reported on by main stream Christian publications and some secular media, but usually not.
You get a truly eye-opening experience when visiting sites and forums by ex-Christians, atheists who are critical of Christianity, and other types of Non-Christians, etc.
(None of this is to say I am a big supporter of militant atheists who are deeply prejudiced against all Christians or theism in general, because I find them just as dogmatic and annoying as some of the Christians they write against.)
But really, if you want to see how churches and strange expressions of American Christianity are turning people off or hurting them, just start going to blogs, forums, and sites by atheists, ex Christians, liberal Christians, etc.
A blog like this one by someone who is still a believing / practicing Christian (Julie Anne) is also good, because she keeps tabs on some of these stories, which sometimes break on Non-Christian sites first, and I think she follows a few such sites.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Our kids, being historical re-enactors, found the American Girls books tried their patience. It appears the girls in the books are written with modern attitudes and turns of phrase, so the books don’t ring true to readers with a historical bent.
They wanted to like the books, and they did save their money so each could get a doll and a few clothes, and then sewed clothes for the rest of the time they payed attention to them.
Each book has a “fact” section after the main story that tells about the people and culture of the time and place the book is set in.
LikeLike
Oh, and HUG, American Girl dolls are secular. Doug Phillips put out a “christian” version of the doll called Liberty Dolls. Also way overpriced. I bet he saw it as another way to cash in on conservative homeschool christian families who wanted their girls to have something halfway decent to play with (our girls always thought the stuff in the boys’ section of the Vision Forum catalog looked far superior to the insipid stuff in the girls’ section).
LikeLike
refugee wrote
I think I read somewhere that some of the homeschooling groups were pushing 19th century books for girls, Elsie Dinsmore? I think that was the title /character name?
They were filled with creepy, pseudo-incestuous stuff, like little Elsie shaving her father?
LikeLike
Daisy they actually DID THAT AT the Vision Forum father/ daughter retreat. The daughters shaved daddy. I was really creeped out by that when I heard about it. They said it was about teaching daughters to serve their father, eeewwy. They also dress up and have a formal dinner dance with Daddy at this event. The joke back then was, when is the mother son retreat and are the sons going to shave mom’s legs ?
For those unfamiliar with the Vision Forum Reich it’s now out of business so you missed out. No dancing and shaving with your kids for you, LOL. The founder Doug Phillips is a first class pervert according to allegations in litigation against him. He climbed through a young woman’s window with his handy Vision Forum ladder, was discovered and chased down the street by her brother and father with a shotgun. Worse yet, according to the plaintiff he ejaculated on her body on several occasions, without her consent and against her wishes. Doug grew up in my area. I have known him for years. I believe the woman’s story 1000%
I wish they would have shot the guy.
LikeLike
Scott,
I am all for getting one more pervert off the street, but I am really glad they didn’t shoot this one. The wrong people, most likely, would have wound up in prison. The young lady needs her brother and father. DP will get his in this life, the next or possibly both.
LikeLike
I actually have an Elsie Dinsmore book on my bookshelf. I bought it because everybody else was talking about them in the Homeschool Movement. I thumbed through it and it’s been on my shelf since. I don’t think Hannah read it. I don’t remember hearing that the books were full of incestuous stuff like shaving, but I do know that Vision Forum had father/daughter weekends or retreats where little girls would shave their dads. I remember doing an article on it, including a video, and the video was “mysteriously” taken down. Hmmm
I remember the Liberty Dolls. If he played it right, it should have come with a purity ring, a purity contract for father/daughter to sign.
LikeLike
I’m not sure how shaving their dads is incestuous. Were there other things happening other than shaving?
LikeLike
I don’t know of a bible version that words this verse in this order?
“Humankind was created as God’s reflection: in the divine image God created them; female and male, God made them.” Genesis 1:27
I believe it is male and female.
LikeLike
Q,
What does the Bible verse you quote have to do with who plays with what toys? That only states that God made men and women; it gives no direction or commandment that men can only play with one type of toy and women only with one type of toy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Q – It seems that the order male/female is important to you. I don’t see anything in that verse that would imply that order is important. Can you help me to understand, please?
LikeLiked by 1 person
_A Critique of the Elsie Dinsmore Books_ via Rethinking Vision Forum blog
I am assuming this is by a female reviewer, but it might be by a guy (I only skimmed it. I think I read this over a year ago).
There’s more on the page, here’s part of it:
She goes on a bit more pointing out examples she feels are incestuous. Did I spell that right? Thankfully, any form of the word “incest” is not a word I have to use often.
According to that review, there is even more fun: Elsie tells black people if they believe in Jesus, they can be white when they go to Heaven.
LikeLike
Thanks for the Elsie link, Daisy. I went looking on Hester’s blog, because I remembered she had discussed this on TWW a few years ago. I couldn’t find anything. I remembered something about a much older man being attracted to Elsie when she was a little girl. Very creepy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Getting back to the Target boy/girl toy aisle subject.
I have to admit that a few of the troll’s comments to angry customers who thought they were dealing with an actual Target site were funny (IMO, anyway):
_Man Pretends to Be Target Rep, Trolls Angry Idiots on Facebook All Day_
As to the following. I am right wing, but I do feel that some other right wingers are total doof wads on some topics, or over-react at times, and yes, I feel that applies to Franklin Graham and Christian blogger Matt Walsh (who is mentioned on this page), i regards to this gender neutral toy aisle fiasco:
_Bigots Lose It Over Target’s Boy Toy Policy_
LikeLiked by 1 person
This, to me, is just plainly icky.
Ewwwww, me too Daisy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Why did Target decide on this policy only after the Supreme Court decision and the Bruce Jenner transgender publicity?
LikeLike
JA, The order only matters to me because the Holy Spirit inspired it that order, when you put quotation marks around the verse you’re not paraphrasing. Hopefully it was just an honest mistake and you will correct it.
LikeLike
JA quoted Genesis 1:27 correctly from The Inclusive Bible. (Sorry this link is so long. I would do TinyURL, but some people like to see what they’re clicking on.)
https://books.google.com/books?id=CwFVUVhm9QcC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Humankind+was+created+as+God%E2%80%99s+reflection:+in+the+divine+image+God+created+them;+female+and+male,+God+made+them&source=bl&ots=nUwdFOuJAq&sig=NloCPhVKxmax8CjIAnx_VzyL6GM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEwQ6AEwB2oVChMItPPQ_uKpxwIVlxqSCh2UqQLf#v=onepage&q=Humankind%20was%20created%20as%20God%E2%80%99s%20reflection%3A%20in%20the%20divine%20image%20God%20created%20them%3B%20female%20and%20male%2C%20God%20made%20them&f=false
Hopefully Q will realize his/her honest(?) mistake.
LikeLike
Thanks…BeenThereDoneThat, the quotations now make sense.
Wow, someones is purposely changing the word, I thought the goal in translating the bible was to get it as close to the original as possible.
Seems someone has an agenda and they are not afraid to change the word, that I believe is a grievous error.
JA – It seems that the order male/female is important to you? I hope not. For me it’s about the integrity of the original text. You could just correct it or say it is a paraphrase I suppose.
LikeLike
I apologize, Q, when you quoted that verse, I was thinking you were quoting someone’s comment, it didn’t dawn on me that you were quoting it from the post. I copied the verse from a site and didn’t even notice the order. Now I’m wondering which site I was visiting. I will make sure to double check next time. I would never intentionally change words.
I’ll just swap it out with different translation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t know a thing about the Inclusive Bible. Now I’m going to have to look it up.
LikeLike
Passionately kissing your adult, married daughter on the lips… Ewwwww.
I don’t know anyone that kisses there kids on the lips. I kiss my nieces and nephews all the time, right on their foreheads when I hug them. My niece that is 5 months old just laughs and laughs when I kiss her little chubby cheeks but to me , kissing children on the lips , even your own children is a bit odd. Probably harmless in some situations like a little baby but an adult married daughter, NO Way. I remember a lady that came out of the more bizzare end of the ” homeschool movement” posting on a similar site that polygamy and acceptance of incest was the next step for the movement. I thought that was crazy and off base at the time. Since then I have come to see she was very in tune with the reality of the movement. Obviously not all homeschoolers are at that end of of the movement, and even more just homeschool and are part of no movement.
Those books also had some racial garbage in them. Doug Phillips used to teach that slavery in America greatly benefited the slave and was God’s plan to evangelize Africa. Promoting weird parent child relationships wasn’t his only focus when he wasn’t busy with his peeping Tom activities.
LikeLiked by 1 person
My family and extended family kiss on the lips (across generations) – not passionately, just a quick peck.
LikeLike
My Italian family is very affectionate. Lots of hugging, touching, and kissing on the lips.
LikeLike
My family is of European descent. Maybe they are more kissy face 🙂
LikeLike
How many wrong assumptions can fit into one sentence?
“The Bible teaches that men are wired by God to protect and to pursue, so it is not surprising that they naturally like toys that by-and-large involve fighting, building, and racing.” – Grant Castleberry
1) The Bible does not teach men are wired to protect.
2) The Bible does not teach men are wired to pursue.
3) Lots of boys do not like toys that “by-and-large involve fighting.”
4) Lots of girls like toys that do “by-and-large involve fighting.”
5) Lots of boys do not like toys that “by-and-large involve building.”
6) Lots of girls like toys that “by-and-large involve building.”
7) Lots of boys do not like toys that “by-and-large involve racing.”
8) Lots of girls like toys that “by-and-large involve racing.”
9) Fighting is directly associated with hurting and endangering, not protecting. (I know, you could use your fighting power for good. But fighting is not intrinsically protective.)
10) Fighting is directly associated not with pursuing, but with the opposite – driving away.
11) Building is not directly associated with protecting – a gun can be built with Lego as easily as a fortress.
12) Building is not associated with pursuing – a weapon for driving away can be build as easily as a vehicle for pursuing.
13) Racing is not associated with protecting. Motor racing, for example, is a dangerous sport. (Racing could be associated with pursuing, which would mean that at least Castleberry gets something not totally wrong.)
14) If boys’ games showed a tendency for protection, you would see them not fighting but preventing any children from getting treated roughly, and they would avoid doing things that would make a sibling cry, etc. But since many boys play rough and sometimes hurt other kids on purpose, I guess boys are not hard wired to protect.
15) If boys games showed a tendency for pursuing (girls), they would invite girls to play with them, at any age. Since boys (children, not speaking of teens) actually prefer boy company, I guess they do not have a hard wired tendency to pursue.
(I could do the same to the next sentence on girls’ preferences and what they are hard-wired to be, but you get the picture.)
LikeLike
Retha said,
I don’t think Castleberry mentioned this in his paper, but, this is another one that is VERY common among Christian gender complementarians:
“Men are wired by God to be visually stimulated”
The Bible, as far as I can recollect, no where says that God programmed men to be more visually attuned than women are.
You can sit there and cite studies which CLAIM most men are more visual than most women, but that still ain’t the Bible! (Also, there have been studies or research debunking this one anyway.)
Some women are very visually oriented – I know I am. It plays into my career field too (which I don’t want to say exactly what that is).
I find this one so annoying, because gender comp material I’ve seen since childhood lectures, shames, and scolds Christian girls and women to stay trim, skinny, pretty, be too concerned about their appearance, because supposedly, men are NOT attracted to your personality, brains, humor or accomplishment, but ONLY what you LOOK LIKE.
And Christian ladies get that same pressure from secular culture!
The comps claim to be counter cultural, but they teach the same sexist garbage that secular culture does.
Also, I appreciate a fine looking man. I like guys with a full head of hair, guys who are taller than I am, guys who are trim. My first choice is not to date a balding (sorry, no offense to bald guys here, just stating my personal prefs), or a guy who is obese, or a guy who is missing his teeth.
Yet gender comps assume women are supposed to date these types of men – either because they assume we ladies do not notice what a man looks like, or we’re not supposed to care.
So you never hear the gender comps encouraging men to go get wigs, jog around the neighborhood to lose weight, or visit a gym at get muscular to look good for the ladies.
But we ladies are pressured (by gender comp sermons, blogs, and books) to exercise our brains out, wear lip stick all day, starve ourselves, and try to look like we are 25 years old, even when we are 45, 55, 65 years old.
Gender comps do all this under their stupid assumptions about how they think God designed men and women.
The Bible does not say anywhere that God “wired men to be visual,” nor that God programmed women to only care about emotional stuff or to be UN-visual and Non-caring (apathetic) about what men look like.
I can assure you that this is one woman who does in fact care about what a guy looks like, concerning whom I am attracted to and chose to date.
LikeLike
Julie Anne said,
I don’t know a thing about the Inclusive Bible. Now I’m going to have to look it up.
————–
You mean gender inclusive Bibles? When one of those was about to be released by NIV several years back, the gender comps went insane and howled about it.
_Rethinking Male-Centered Translations of the Bible_
LikeLike
Regarding this from my last post, I wanted to add something:
Funny enough, though, some of these egotistical mega church pastors do in fact hit the gym regularly, but one gets the impression they do not stay in shape to stay sexy looking for their wife but for themselves, to look good on TV, and to impress OTHER mega church preachers.
This was on Stuff Christian Culture Likes Facebook group and illustrates what I mean:
_Weight Lifting Dude Bro Mega Church Preachers Pose for the Camera_ (link to Facebook photo/ page)
I just look at that photo of those preachers at a gym, and I get the feeling they’re preening and working out to look good for each other – not to stay in shape for their wives.
LikeLike
Scott,
Egad, Phillips was teaching that drivel, too!? I thought it was just Doug Wilson who was so backwards. It’s worse than I thought… 😦
LikeLike
Serving Kids, did you see the end part of my post about Elsie books above?
Here is my last line from that post, to save you from scrolling up and hunting for it:
—–
According to that review (of the Elsie book), there is even more fun: Elsie tells black people if they believe in Jesus, they can be white when they go to Heaven.
——
That certainly conflicts with the children’s song that
“Jesus loves all the little children of the world, black / red / yellow / brown / white, he finds them all precious in his sight,”
or however the lyrics to that go.
LikeLike
Thank you JA, I did not know about that version either.
LikeLike
Amen Daisy! AMEN!
Finally, someone who actually spoke what I have kept hidden in my thoughts for a long while. The double standards/double mindedness concerning men and women with regards to visual presentations. I have heard within church circles, men complaining and commenting with little cutting remarks here and there regarding their wives’ weight and sometimes run-down appearance or the ‘she has really let herself go’ statement. And I listen with my heart a racing and my blood pressure a rising, my teeth clenching the end of my tongue, for each man that has spoken foolish words such as these within the sanctuary, are in some way, shape, or form, desperately in need of some toning and atonement themselves. These men are more than satisfied to point out their wives’ imperfections all the while believing they are in need of nothing and frankly, it breaks my heart. Oh, how I loathe those “visual double standards and the double minded blindness” of the pious.
Pat Robertson spoke some foolish things into existence here awhile back concerning women fixing up and taking care of themselves for their husbands, and if they choose not to, well then, the husband has that right to separate. I often wonder who Pat’s Mary Kay lady or Avon consultant is, for his make-up artist does an excellent job.
In raising our children, I have been “corrected” by several home schooling mothers regarding the issue of Barbie dolls in our home. I was accused of giving my daughter the wrong impression of how her body should look and that it would have a devastating effect on her self esteem growing up. It was strongly suggested that we purchase an American doll or other dolls that didn’t have such perfect make-up, hair, and bodies so as to not cause our child any harm.
Long story, short; our daughter never suffered one bit in the area of self esteem, body/figure awareness, nor did she encounter any demons coming out of those wicked Barbie dolls. She enjoyed those dolls, talked her brothers into playing ‘Barbies’ with her on several occasions, and she reciprocated with playing ‘farm’ with her brothers quite often. And she even had her own farm set just like her brothers……..I wonder how Focus on the Family would deal with that one.
And Daisy, I have actually sat in couples therapy, I mean Bible studies and Christian marriage conferences where they have spoken the “men and women are wired differently, men are visual and women are not……etc.” Funny thing though, there were NO Scriptures used to back up the teachings we received in any of these forums.
LikeLike
I remember when toys were toys, and the signage in toy stores said stuff like “Dolls”, “Building toys”, etc. — and everything didn’t have to be divided along gender lines. There were no pink Legos. No one saw a need to have boy versions and girl versions of gender-neutral toys. I would have found this Ida of having
LikeLike
Oops, misbehaving iPhone!
I would have thought, as a kid, that it was ludicrous that I should want to restrict myself to pink and pastel toys with “girly” themes. Frankly, I’ve found this trend in gender-specific toys, bedding, etc. to be ridiculous, impractical, and a marketing ploy to sell more toys. Where does it stop? Husbands and wives can’t share a bed because one would be required to sleep with bedding of the wrong gender? Separate couches for women and men? Gender-specific cars? We don’t make adults put up with such nonsense — why have we done this to kids?
I’m surprised THAT didn’t raise a hue and cry.
LikeLike
“Husbands and wives can’t share a bed because one would be required to sleep with bedding of the wrong gender?”
Well, you can buy a comforter with appropriate gender colors. Just make sure you sleep under the correct side. Hahahaha.
http://i3.cpcache.com/product/1229422188/her_side_his_side_purple_black_king_duvet.jpg?color=White&height=460&width=460&qv=90
LikeLike
BTDT,
I do so like the fact that Her side is bigger than His. I think that is only because she likes to cuddle and be close. That’s my theory and I am sticking to it!!!
Perhaps all of this gender specific nonsense is what is making more people “confused” and want to mutilate their bodies. rrprewett is so right. I don’t think there were so many boundaries placed on things that should be simple by most people. There are always going to be those that can’t stand girls playing war games and boys playing with dolls. We live in an imperfect world with people who have a screw loose or wound too tight.
LikeLike
Well, the current version is well-written, well-done, with some REAL storytelling within the limits of the franchise, and is demonstrating all-ages appeal. (Which according to the likes of Chesterton, Lewis, and Tolkien is the key to staying power in children’s literature.)
The current version was developed by Lauren Faust, who has quite a track record in the cartoon industry — and used to play with My Little Pony toys when she was a kid in the Eighties. Instead of the “official” girly tea parties, she used to send them off on quests to save the world from various stuffed-toy monsters and in-between live their lives as something more than CBMW girlies. When Hasbro tapped her to develop and launch their reboot, she got to do for real (and pay) what she had done long ago as a little girl. And that showed in the first season — someone who was doing it as a (paid) labor of love instead of just a toy commercial and paycheck. Though Lauren left at the beginning of 2nd season, the production crew she assembled has been carrying on her legacy.
There have been two or three professional documentaries on the subject (plus one off-Broadway musical). The first of these documentaries (90 minutes long) is on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMcuMDtNaqM .
LikeLike
Locked harems where the man only enters (and defiles his manliness) for sex and breeding (sons, of course)? And (optionally) turns it into an act of God like ISIS?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape/ar-BBlHDWR
LikeLike
@Daisy:
”
Didn’t remember the guy’s name; but to me he’s always going to be “The ‘Beat the Fag Out Of Your Kid’ Preacher.”
Kind of like Voddie Baucham(sp?) preaching “Beat the Shyness Out of Your Kid”, but with a sexual angle.
LikeLike