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Kevin Swanson, Generations With Vision Radio, Josh Duggar, Incest, Christian Home Educators of Colorado
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-by Kathi
On May 28, 2015, Kevin Swanson entered the foray of folks talking about the revelation of Josh Duggar sexually molesting several little girls when he was a teen. His radio show, “The Duggars – Why the Media Storm” starts off with the vague assertion that no matter what Christians may say about the Duggars, the world will attack because the world hates the Duggars because they don’t take birth control. Right.
“The liberals have hated the Duggars from the very beginning and they will admit that. . . .The reason they hated the Duggars was because the Duggars did not take birth control. That’s a simple explanation for why they hate the Duggars. They hate the Duggars because the world is into killing babies and they kill a lot of them.”
Instead of focusing on the issue at hand, here is what Swanson was not going to say:
- Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.
- Incest is worse than homosexuality. HUH?? Steve Vaughn chimes in saying, “They’re about the same.” To which he offers hearty laugh.
- Humble, repentant sinners will go home justified rather than the proud, unrepentant homosexuals.
- Most children sin, or that all children sin, or that all of us sin, or that some teens commit fornication, or that a lot of teens commit fornication.
- Incest is a capital crime in some cases, and we’re not going to tell you which cases incest is a capital crime as defined by scripture.
- The Duggars shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, shoulda, reported the problem to a different police officer, different judge, different church elders, and, and, and, and, and, and, and…
- The Duggars can be more real now after all their sins are out there for the public to see and that’s going to make for a better reality show.
- The whole sexual revolution with all of its millions manifestations was a really good idea.
- American conservative Christianity is in really solid shape. (Really, this is such a long, drawn out rabbit trail that makes absolutely no sense.)
Whew! Am I glad that Swanson saved us all from listening to an uncomfortable conversation about the real issues surrounding the Duggar situation. So what did Swanson manage to talk about?
Well, he did manage to state that his radio show, Generations With Vision, is a part of the parent organization Christian Home Educators of Colorado (CHEC). And, he did manage to mention that the Duggars have been invited to the Rocky Mountain Super Conference on the Family. He also mentioned that while the Duggars have not be asked to not appear at the conference by CHEC, the Duggars also have not informed CHEC that they will not be upholding their speaking engagement. So, as far as we know, the Duggars will still be making their appearance at this “super” conference. You know, all of this information would have made for a great disclaimer at the beginning of the show.
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So why has CHEC not revoked their invitation to the Duggars for this upcoming conference? It’s all about forgiveness. And, praying and loving the Duggars. And because sin is bad (because God said so), but Jesus went to the cross for that sin so who are we to judge? I think we all just got Jesus-juked.
If it’s all about forgiveness and not judging, then I want to know when the Duggars asked CHEC and Kevin Swanson to forgive them of their sins. When did Josh Duggar approach the organization and confess what he did and ask for forgiveness? When did Michelle and Jim Bob approach the organization and Kevin Swanson and confess how they manipulated the system to hide what their son had done and ask for forgiveness? Why does Kevin Swanson pull the forgiveness card so easily when he was not the one who was wronged? Why is he so quick to forgive and forget? Honestly, it is my opinion that Kevin Swanson views victims of sexual abuse as bitter and he has very little empathy toward victims of abuse.
Co-host, Steve Vaughn, summarizes this attitude by quoting Ephesians 4:31-32, “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” With this comes the call for all Christians to put it all away. Stop being bitter and slanderous toward the Duggars. Be tender-hearted and compassionate. Because that is what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.
To which I reply, “Shame on you!”
Shame on you, Steve Vaughn, for callously laughing at victims of incest. And for saying that homosexuality is the same as incest.
Shame on you, Kevin Swanson, for not taking seriously the issues that have been exposed about how the Duggars mishandled Josh’s sexual molesting of young children.
And, shame on you Kevin Swanson for the appearance of not addressing the issue because it may impact your parent organization’s “super” conference. Because, if the Duggars don’t show up, then you need to take out “We’ve Got the Duggars” on your banner and then people may not be as interested in attending.
photo credit: via photopin (license)
related link:
Kevin Swanson Spews Nonsense from His Mouth to Further His Birth Control Agenda
Spiritual Sounding Board 
A family from a TV show is supposed to be a draw for people who are serious about their families? Because even though we call them reality shows, they are scripted and edited and marketed as vigorously as any other show on TV. What you see on screen is not reality, and going to a conference to get advice from people you have only seen in that unreal setting isn’t wise. Really.
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Where does a parent draw the line with children and experimentation, playing doctor, normal curiosity etc? It seems like a lot of things that were considered normal childhood behavior is now classified as abuse or molestation. When did all of this change, is it the times we live in, do we know better now? Our culture in general? What age does something innocent turn into something evil? Do we try and preempt every thought our children might have, how young do we start teaching about inappropriate touch? A onetime event ~ get a pass and explanation of why it is wrong? If it ever happens again go to authorities immediately? And what are you supposed to do if something happens while a child is a sleep unaware, are you supposed to bring it to the child’s attention? Would that traumatize a child for no reason? Health departments across the nation better start offering parents classes on “Is it curiosity or molestation”. I want to protect my children and their childhood, I want it to be full of wonder and curiosity and innocence, but I also don’t want them to be abused or to be accused of inappropriate behavior themselves. What is a parent in this day and age to do?
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Kevin is just following suit with Todd Friel and Ray Comfort and even Creation Today’s Eric Hovind whom are all collectively making a living off of promoting and making products for the homeschooling world. It’s all about money for them even though I honestly think they have deluded themselves into thinking it is about “an opportunity to spread the gospel”, which is why each and everyone of them is not only minimizing the entire situation, but trying to spin it to their “HOME” advantage as well.
This is all so very frustrating to me because I have really delved into almost all of their ministries in my search for life after forced Catholicism and of everything I searched, their teachings on evangelism and understanding we need to first accept the law and the acknowledgement of sin before we can even see a need for a Savior, changed my entire walk with God. But now, after a TRIFECTA of creepiness from the homeschooling “giants” this year and last, all I see is a brain-washed, misogynistic, controlling cult that can only bear rotten fruit and I want nothing to do with it.
Am I deluded, is it possible to have huge revelation about the actual gospel delivered by a cult? Do I need help in my thinking in this? Any feedback from you all would be greatly appreciated as this board, even though I mainly lurk, it is the only place besides TWW where I feel I can get the info I need to dodge the inevitable bullets a sprayin!
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Great questions, Chantal. I’m going to copy a comment I posted on a friend’s FB wall because she asked the same thing. But first, please take a look at this short video which also touches on your question. It’s from a sex abuse expert who works to protect children from abuse.
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““Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” With this comes the call for all Christians to put it all away. Stop being bitter and slanderous toward the Duggars. Be tender-hearted and compassionate. Because that is what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.”
This is a favorite bible verse for abusers. Abuser says, Yeah, I did gross things to you, you hated it, I liked it, now forgive me and kiss my bottom. Because god forgives little girl rapist, and if rape was so bad god would have said so.
These men are bitter, very bitter that any one would speak out against sexual abuse, that any boy or man should feel bad about sexual abuse, that any boy or man should have to worry about going to jail, or being judged for sexually abusing any one.
It looks like Christians, (the mean Christians) want a monopoly on judgment and criticizing, they are here to judge and criticize everyone else. How dare any one think they can judge and criticize Christians, (the mean Christians). They can dish it out but not take it, they cant take their own medicine.
My own Christian father, hated with a bloody passion sexually abused little girls and sexually abused women, he had every bit as much hate for a raped little girl as he had for a raped grown woman.
Kevin Swanson and Steve Vaughn are obnoxious, immature, hateful, heartless, and selfish. These men’s morals are disgusting and embarrassing, any decent person would find them vile and embarrassing.
Christians have been spewing much hate speech at and about rape victims the past couple of weeks. I really believe that the majority of Christians hate rape victims and understand the rapist.
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Kathi, great article and also good for you for highlighting Kevin’s ultimate agenda: birth control. It really always comes back to this issue for him. He hates birth control (and abortion).
For those not familiar, he’s the same guy who placed an enormous amount of guilt on any pro-life woman who has ever taken birth control pills by claiming that they all have thousands of tiny embedded dead fetuses in their wombs. He never retracted his statement after many called him on it (including yours truly). I contacted him by Twitter, e-mail, on his FB page. He eventually took that broadcast down, but he still spews the same nonsense. It’s amazing how he can piggyback on the current hot topic and bring attention to his agenda. It never fails.
I have very strong negative feelings about how this man spews rhetoric in order to push his agenda. He’s over the top and WRONG.
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Chantal Evanoff said,
Regarding the Josh Duggar story in particular.
He was not “playing doctor” with his sisters. He molested them as they were asleep.
IIRC (and I may not be), I think some of the reports said some of the daughters woke up and found him molesting them.
It was not a one-time incident, either. Duggar molested four sisters and one baby sitter, and again IIRC, he molested the sisters several times over a year or more.
When kids “play doctor” there is usually a mutual consent thing going on where the kids agree to “examine” each other. You can’t give consent if you are asleep.
If you had a brother, would you want him molesting you while you slept, whether is was a one time event, or several times?
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JA said,
I’m pro-life, but a virgin, yet I had to take BC pills to deal with my one-time erratic period and other problems associated with my period. The guy is weird and uninformed.
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Kathi said,
A lot of the Christians screaming at other Christians to forgive Josh Duggar for molesting his sisters are sure bent on judging Caitlyn Jenner over being trans.
I’m not sure where exactly the double standard on that is coming from, maybe because Duggar claims to be repentant and Jenner is not and Jenner is proud of his choice.
Regardless of the motives at play, I find it galling that Christians who are falling all over themselves to defend Duggar are also wagging their index fingers in judgment at Jenner or transgender in general.
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Daisy, I don’t buy it that he is uninformed. On his own FB page medical professionals, including gynecologists/OBs informed him that he was off base and they have done surgeries and never seen embedded fetuses. I have the screenshots somewhere. It might be in the post I linked to at the bottom of the page. He knows and chooses to misled aka lie to women to promote his agenda. This is sick.
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I may be parting company a bit with some of you here, but I do think there is some truth to the idea that one of the several reasons why many liberals dislike the Duggars is that the Duggars have a lot of kids, and they eschew birth control.
I sometimes read liberal sites, including the comments on them by Average Joe liberals.
What I have seen on liberal sites is there are a lot of liberals, (not all, but a sizeable chunk), who are vehemently pro-choice to the point they harbor some hostility towards women who chose to have children, or who have a lot of children, or thre is hostility against women who aren’t completely accepting of birth control.
(I don’t agree with Swanson. I think he’s weird and sexist, I also think the Duggars have a lot of harmful views, I think they messed up in how they dealt with their son and their daughter.
So please anyone reading this, don’t take this last part of my post as necessarily a defense of Swanson or the Duggars, because that is not my intent.)
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Regarding Julie Anne’s post of JUNE 4, 2015 @ 1:22 PM.
I just wonder how Swanson would reconcile his view that “BC pill usage = dead fetuses” (what is the plural or fetus??) when you have a virgin person (me) who used BC pills for health reasons (not having to do with sex or pregnancy).
I’ve never had sex, so there was zero chance of me having any feti (fetuses?).
I wonder if Swanson would still be opposed to virgins using BC pills? If he would be, he really, really has some issues and definitely has some agenda at play.
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Teri,
What a great question. The way cult leaders and abusers work is they use some truth, or even a lot of truth, but then mix in with is false teaching. If they were only using false teaching, we’d spot it, but they have a way of manipulating truth and embellishing their own extra stuff in it.
What I have done is look at my former pastor’s hot topics. Now I reject those as hot topics and investigate for myself and come to my own conclusions. I won’t buy whatever a pastor says just because he is standing in a pulpit. No, I make sure it lines up with my understanding of Scripture and I try to listen to the Holy Spirit, too. (That’s something that you don’t hear very much of in these groups.)
Hope that helps! I’m glad you asked the question because I’m sure others are going through the same thing.
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“do we know better now?”
We do know better now. When I was born all four of my great grandmothers were still alive, two of my great grandfathers, both sets of my grand parents.
These things were happening in the twenties, and thirties. No one talked, no one talked about sex, no one cared about abuse.
I was sexual abused as a child, so were many of my cousins, one of my cousins committed suicide four years ago because he was raped as a little boy. Another cousin started robbing banks at gun point to support his addiction to drugs, he was sexually abused his whole childhood, the drugs helped him escape the pain, he is now in prison for over twenty years, he has two young children.
My advice as someone that has experienced much sexual abuse would be, talk to your kids as soon as possible about everything. When they start walking and talking show them from their shoulder’s to their knees, this area of your body is not to be touched. Teachers, preachers, aunts, grand mothers, grand fathers, girls older then them, girls younger then them, boys older then and younger then them, are not to touch them in these areas.
I have a cousin that was molested by a girl younger then her.
I would tell them that when someone touches them it is going to be shocking, feel gross, and scary, and they should say with force, DONT TOUCH ME!
And then come tell a parent or grand parent.
Tell them it is wrong, and the person doing it is wrong, not them.
Look in your child’s eyes when they talk and you talk to them, read their body language. If they get upset about going some where, care!
Is there an adult or child there that has been touching them, giving them bad feelings. If your child cries because you are leaving them with someone or are taking them somewhere slow down, be nice, and ask them questions.
I read an article about a man that had been sexually abused by a priest, the man said, he did not have the vocabulary at that young of an age to even know how to tell his parents.
I am not lucky enough to have kids, but if I did I would tell them they can talk to me about anything, I would slow down look in their eyes, read their body language and ask them questions.
Sorry if I was preachy. 😦
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I was born in a very conservative Christian family, I grew up in home school out in the woods. My first memory of being sexually abused I was two and a half or three, I could feel very much how wrong it was, that it scared and confused me, it gave me gross feelings.
Selfish Jim Bob saying all these girls didn’t know it was wrong or what had happened, that is a lie. Jim Bob makes me sick.
I don’t believe any of these girls can say what they really think or how they really feel, anything they say will just be them repeating what Jim Bob tells them to say.
They are his prisoners.
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100pinkapples said:
“They are his prisoners.”
What’s really sad is that these girls were basically brainwashed into thinking that their dad was “caring” for and “protecting” them, when in reality he was/is spiritually and emotionally abusing them.
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Did anyone listen to the Duggar’s interview on Fox? Was the interview longer than 15 minutes? I caught a 15 minute video, but in reading some other posts, I think I missed out on some things that were talked about. Anyway….
In the 15 minutes that I did listen, the Duggar’s said that Josh admitted to touching the girls breasts and vagina over their clothes while they were asleep. When they asked the girls about it, they didn’t know Josh had done it. Then they said that there were other instances, once while the girls were awake and sitting on the couch where he touched them again, over their clothes. It took Josh three times of telling them that he had been touching girls inappropriately before they took action outside the home. Three times!!! They should have acted the first time, especially since he touched them while they were asleep without their consent.
The Duggars also made it very clear that he only touched outside the clothes and it wasn’t as bad as rape. I’m sorry, but touching people inappropriately, under or over clothes, without their consent is sexual assault. I really think these people are clueless.
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“wagging their index fingers in judgment at Jenner ”
“What I have seen on liberal sites is there are a lot of liberals”
I read a lot of books, magazines, and websites. I don’t know who these people are that like the Kardashians, on the secular websites I go to every one hates them. They call them trash, they call Kris Jenner a pimp.
Every one was furious that Anna Wintour put Kim Kardashian on the cover of Vogue.
One of my Bazaar magazines had Kim Kardashian on the cover, I thought, what a waste of a magazine cover.
I watched the Duggars when the show came on because I thought it was so cute that they had a lot of kids, I always wanted a lot of kids. After I realized how demeaned and subjugated the girls were I stopped watching the show. One of the episodes I watched they were going on a trip, Jim Bob had Josh drive a car with the older girls in it, not very compassionate of him.
The Kardashians are a big family, I have watched that show, the daughters make fun of their mother for having six kids. And it looked like to me, that her daughters liked their stepdad much more then they liked her, they were always taking his side over hers.
Some Hollywood women wanted to start a boycott of Vogue, because Vogue put Kim Kardashian on the cover.
If it got reported that one of the Jenner boys, or the Kardashian brother molested the two little sisters it would be a very big deal.
People are saying that it is common for big families to have a molestation problem, this is so offensive.
I think if you talk to your kids, you can have lots of kids and they will look out for each other and will hate sexual abuse.
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http://gawker.com/19-excuses-and-counting-every-excuse-the-duggars-made-1708883481
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Kathi, I read in a news report with quotes from Michelle that he did touch under clothes as well, but it was very brief, only seconds. Ugh. More minimization.
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Looks like Ol’ Womb Tomb had been out of the spotlight for too long and didn’t like being upstaged by Duggargate.
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Julie Anne – Someone sent me a two-part series of the interview. That must have been mentioned later (after the first 15 minutes). Unless it was, and I totally missed it. I’ll watch the rest of it, but not for a while.
For CHEC to keep the Duggars on as their “main attraction” tells me that they are okay with the minimizing and hiding of the abuse. They’ll buy the “we did the best we could” line and see them as repentant of their actions. They’ll also support them in their “victim” playing card because they absolutely believe in no government intervention of the family.
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Police report: James said that in March 2002( redacted) came to him very upset and crying and said Josh had been sneaking into ( redacted) room at night and touching her breasts and vagina.
That was before Josh said anything to his parents. Correct me if I am wrong, in that interview Jim Bob said Josh was the first one to tell his parents, and then the parents spoke to the girls…who didn’t know anything had happened until the parents asked them.
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@CarmenS:
Because that’s the Spin.
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Here’s what I see. I see the homeschooling community very afraid. They are afraid of the government getting involved in their families. And, there are plenty of instances where CPS has wrongly taken children and the children were abused in foster care. It does happen. And there is medical kidnapping happening, too.
They’re afraid of “what if this were my son” and how they would handle it. They are afraid that it is happening way more than we know. They’re afraid that the Christian homeschooling community is suppose to be the “city on the hill” and instead is just as bad as the Real World (TM).
And so, they opt for ignorance, minimizing the victims, making jokes, justifying, and comparing. Because they are afraid.
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Carmen S. on June 4, 2015 at 4:28 PM
“Police report: James said that in March 2002( redacted) came to him very upset and crying and said Josh had been sneaking into ( redacted) room at night and touching her breasts and vagina.
That was before Josh said anything to his parents. Correct me if I am wrong, in that interview Jim Bob said Josh was the first one to tell his parents, and then the parents spoke to the girls…who didn’t know anything had happened until the parents asked them.”
I caught that discrepancy too.
I also wonder about the outside counsel that they say they girls and Josh received. Was it Gothard counseling or was it licensed, degreed therapists?
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100pinkapples- You didn’t sound preachy at all! I love your comments. I love that you you know exactly what to say to a child, how I wish I could have heard what you stated above when I was growing up.
My dysfunctional abusive parents didn’t have a religious bone in their bodies, so I sucked up religion (as a adult) like a hungry infant & it almost destroyed me.
I hate hate hate sexual abuse of any stripe, it kills, steals, & destroys and I am horrified & so sorry what your sperm donor ( he doesn’t deserve to be called father or dad) & the other mousey pitiful men did to you…
I too am a survivor of sexual, physical, verbal abuse so your comments always resinate with me. You have a way of expressing yourself that is compelling. I hope you have found safety & a place to start to heal.
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@ Bridget
I’ve seen it stated elsewhere that Michelle states on the police report itself that they were sent to a Christian run camp and not accredited counseling, (don’t have the stomach to check that out myself) but then in the interview they now say they went to an accredited counselor. My bet is that “accredited counselor” was most definitely affiliated with some part of ATI or some branch thereof.
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My oldest child is 5, and I’m preparing to have the “safe touch” talk with him. He’s already gotten some of it before. I’ve told him that he shouldn’t touch other people’s bodies without their permission, never touch or show genitals even if asked, and don’t allow anyone to touch his private parts. He knows the proper medical terminology for his body parts and uses them. No silly euphemisms. He talks about his private parts as comfortably as he does his arm or his foot.
Young children who are experimenting don’t usually go to great lengths to hide it. It’s innocent; they don’t know that what they’re doing is wrong. And experimentation usually occurs between children close in age.
Usually by the time a child is 8 or 10, he or she is mature enough to understand appropriate touch. A male at age 14 or 15 would be far past the age of basic genital exploration and would have a general understanding of sex and arousal. Experimenting at that age involves kissing and feeling up his girlfriend. A normal, healthy teen would not be interested in sexually touching a small child, and definitely not more than once. That’s a perversion. Anyone who claims differently doesn’t understand basic child development. Teens find little kids either funny or annoying, not sexy.
If you see two little kids playing doctor or touching each other inappropriately, take them aside and explain the concept of private parts. If you catch your teen masturbating or feeling up his girlfriend, talk to him about sex and consent. If you catch your teen molesting a preschooler, report it to the authorities and get them both into therapy ASAP.
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So basically it sounds like curiosity, playing doctor, experimenting sexually equals the children or adolescents being close in age (2-4) (5-7) (9-12) (14-16) both (mutual consenting etc.) Any big age difference or only one of them consenting or being able to consent equals molestation and needs to be reported. Clarified, thanks!
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Things happened when I was a kid, no need to go much into it. I committed the vile sin of bringing it up to a church leader. Basically, I was a liar, and if these things did happen I had it coming because I was such a vile filthy disgusting piece of human trash. I should forgive those that hurt me, I had a long time ago I was just trying to work through some of the issues that came up partly because of those events. Basically it is like this, God forgives the truly repentant, those that mouth the right magic words and tow the party line. For those who do not, God cant and wont forgive your sins, ever.
That about sums up my 34 years as a Christian.
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brian – I am saddened to hear your story. This should not have happened to you.
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I am always amazed at level of trust some of you have to share your deepest and darkest pain with the SSB community. My heart aches when I read each one. Brian, gail, 100pinkapples, Teri, thank you for trusting us. I value your voices – especially since I know that for every one who posts, there are far many more who read and who may be saying, “that’s me!!!” I believe your personal stories. And I hope that you find grace, peace, and hope in thie precious arms of our Savior. And this message goes to the quiet ones, too 🙂
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I must add, the people at PP, WW and here have been a great help, I must also admit I let my bitterness grow very deep because I am so use to it I dont let things go. Even when God has given me pause and rest I still hold on. I think it is because it is sort of “comfortable” I am working on letting God love me, I know He does.
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I would like to preface my comments with a bit of background on myself. I am a 44 year old woman, mother of five which i home schooled thru or to junior high, surviving an abusive twenty year “christian” marriage and an ongoing five year long (so far) divorce.
As a child between 7 and 13 I was regularly sexually violated by an elderly faith- healer/chiropractor often in the direct view and presence of my watching mother. When I initially complained to her about the wrongness on the way home from his “office”, she invalidated me and marginalized my concerns. My parents had borrowed money from him so that neither parent was willing to protect me or my three sisters. He was also interacting with my mother, who I believe was sexually abused, herself, as a child.
This man paid for me to go to summer interdenominational church camp outside of my town. At three consecutive summer camps I met safe adults who showed the care of Christ and I entered a thirty year long journey where I have seen God’s protection, direction, provision, and correction (Denzel Washington shared the same list at a commencement speech recently…we must have the same God, cause I had that list before he shared..). I know God is real and being aware of His presence with me and His constant love for me (which I have grown slowly to trust), has given me the strength to walk thru some very deep dark valleys. I am thankful that those camps were provided to me because of how God used them to forever change the trajectory of my life, and in essence, to save my life.
When I was fifteen, after that man had died of stomach cancer, one night while trying to fall asleep, his image came into my mind. He was standing before me looking at me blankly. I watched myself (in my mind’s eye) slap his face repeatedly with all the strength I could muster. I was trying to slap his face literally off. Over and over until I was mentally exhausted and crying out loudly. (Really I am not into new age visualization. I think it was God’s doing.) Then in my exhaustion, I looked at him again and i saw deep remorse and regret in his eyes as his face dropped down. My heart broke for him. I reached to embrace him in his pain. Forgiveness (or the feeling of forgiveness) flooded my heart and from that night until now, almost thirty years later, I have never entertained one bitter thought or one painful memory regarding him. It was like Christ, in that experience, made it “finished”. I have completely forgiven him.
I have still battled ongoing trust issues with my mother (realized early she could not watch my children) and I basically have no real relationship with her. Denial and self protection have walled her away from me. Sometimes I really long for a mother.
I have also experienced the most unbelievable spiritual abuse (you would not believe my story) in a well known northern California church. The details of what has happened perfectly set me up to face that deep rooted pain involving invalidation and abandonment. God knows how to get to the deep stuff. It doesn’t usually feel good or loving. But He is there in it, to heal the old wounds,by allowing us to face similar trauma. Healing is slow, slow, slow but it is happening.
All that said, it is not the end. I married a christian man from church seven years my elder when I was nineteen. Having covenanted with God at that camp to keep my mind, hands, and body pure for marriage, we had waited two and a half years of courtship, dancing with the “line”. I was aware of my fiance’s childhood sexual abuse (recipient and perpetrator) and his ongoing weakness in pornography. I felt compassion for him. I thought that compassion was love. He showed signs of physical abusiveness and major disrespect towards me before marriage but because unsatisfied hormones were in the driver’s seat of my decision making, I married him just to become free to express love sexually. Somehow I think that roots back to the abuse?
At three months into the marriage (and at three months before becoming pregnant), he told me that the marriage “was not making him happy”. He did not take any action to leave the marriage. I just kept going forward, or I thought it was forward. I stayed for twenty years. Always hoping that if I loved better, I could change our relationship and we would become the type of team/partnership I had always imagined. He was like a trapped animal in a cage where he didn’t want to be, working very hard to get me to leave him. I focused on trying to create a home (or the appearance of a home) and to improve impoverished conditions. I felt like a person trying to push the car up the hill to a better place, while he got at the top end trying to push it back down over the top of me. He once said scornfully that everything I touch turns to gold. Rather than appreciating this as an asset to our team, he competitively hated me for the ways God blessed me with direction and favor.
His addiction to internet porn and pursuits of other women (many times right before my eyes) raged throughout the marriage. All the guilt as a “christian man” that he felt, he turned into scorn aimed at me. The divorce has been literal hell on earth, although God has shown He is here through some miracles and by supernatural waves of fresh strength. Without Christ I would not have survived thus far. All the posts re: leaving a pedophile have been extremely encouraging to me. It does concern me how well many of you have perfectly described him.
Regarding Josh Duggar, I don’t watch television and I have never watched “the show”. It sounds like from the comments here that Josh may have made comments that reveal a dark heart. But all of this has really stirred my heart and I am just feeling grieved. As a fellow sister in Christ to many of you, I hope you can hear me reason out my thoughts.
I remember being on a debate project for a Critical Thinking college course. The subject was regarding the grizzly murder committed by an eight year old on another child in a city in the US which I now cannot remember. I was assigned to the side that said “the child is not responsible because he was a child”. I remember thinking “Just great! I have to defend this little sicko.” By the end of the project, after loads of research, and at the actual debate, I was able to help my group win the argument assigned us when I sarcastically and poignantly suggested immediate lethal injection for this criminal. The room went silent. Everyone realized and remembered that we were talking about a little boy here. I argued that children are a product of the environment that adults create for them and therefore adults are the responsible party when a child is involved in a crime. This idea may be why this Duggar thing is causing such a flair up- because when our children fail, we feel responsible. I argued that it is because we are responsible. (Two parents make a child, so when a woman is left as a single parent, she feels all the blame. But there is another parent who shares responsibility. In their absence, they are still contributing to that child’s environment.) While the offending child should be stopped and the victims should be believed and protected, as adults we must look at what environment that offending child has been influenced by. What environment have we created for them? As a mother who stayed in a marriage where my children watched some extreme abuse and disrespect and were also themselves direct victims of it, I am responsible for keeping my children in that environment as much as the one that was fouling that environment.
I have some questions/ponderings of us for our children’s sake:
1) Are offending children having access to explicit material that probably will do what it is meant to (fuel sexual arousal and lead to finding outlets)? Do we accept the presence of porn in our culture and in our homes (even Christian homes)? Does the church wink at pornography and call it the wife’s “puritanicalness” when it is not welcomed into the bedroom? Are we diligent to protect our children, including our teen-aged boys, from internet porn? Have we bought into “boys will be boys” (but only acceptable within normal ‘lusting’ perimeters)?
2) Now that sex ed is passing states to start in kindergarten, will providers of sex ed give knowledge that actually robs children of innocence and may promote the need to act out that knowledge? While many kids may be okay with knowledge, are all kids the same? If a child has a withdrawn or odd personality or an active imagination, is it possible that our attempts at sex ed could launch him or her into aversions? Can we see that sex ed in public school could fuel sexual acting out and may not prevent inappropriate sexual acting out? Since public schools teach that we are animals and that there are no moral absolutes, can they really control the line between exploration and felony behavior, as they enlighten the children with knowledge of anal sex and the like? Do we really expect children not to act out what they are shown? Do we not understand that innocence of childhood is actually NOT knowing? So when the fifth grade boy learns about anal sex and he is in an impoverished, possibly abusive home life, he isn’t going to take that bit of information, as his hormones are kicking on, and act perhaps beyond the lines? Will sex ed fully warn children what the legal parameters are so that the child can avoid legal repercussions in the rest of their childhood? Like are kids clearly told when it is that their animal instincts become criminal?
3) Why do we have children emancipate when they are 18? In many countries the age of consent is 12 or 14, probably because that is when bodies start saying they are ready to have babies. Wasn’t Mary thirteen when she became pregnant with Jesus Chirst, God the son? Why would God have her birth him, if it was bad for her body, or if she were too young to mother? Why does our culture delay the maturation process of our young people so that for five to seven years plus they may be a prisoner to their raging hormones? Didn’t Paul say, if you burn for one another, marry? Were there age requirements put on that? Some young people finish high school by ten years old, so it must be possible to learn what you need to learn that fast. Why do we drag education out so long and dumb down our education? In many societies, as children reach puberty they are also reaching adulthood. Why is it different for Western cultures? Are we responsible, by just the way we have structured our culture, for sexual misconduct?
The tough thing about this guy Josh, is that like it or not, he was a child when he did the acts. A child! Does not change the horribleness (probably amplifies it) but yet, like the eight year old murderer, let us reason this well. Some of the posts here that I have read, people have stopped sounding like adults. Probably the unhealed wounds getting poked at. The Bible says, “do not return evil for evil, but overcome evil with good”. Lashing around tare downs really won’t help you heal right. Also I recall scripture warning us not to learn the details of a sin too well. Watch your mind. Some of you seem to be devouring this thing like a juicy steak. And to me, that is just as sick. “Be careful little eyes, what you see. Be careful little mouth, what you say.” (A Sunday school song I remember).
Something influenced his behavior and before we all pick up our stones, we ought to think about what those influences are, what can be learned from this tradgedy, and whether we are just as guilty in the environment we allow to develop for our children.
There is a scene in the true story/movie “Machine Gun Preacher” (on netflix) that is powerful. Sam, the born again drug addict turned missionary to the children of Sudan Africa, is fighting to save children from being killed or abducted in village raids by the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA). He fights with his machine gun, blowing the bad guys away. He has saved hundreds of children (well, I won’t tell all just in case). One day, he gets a report of LRA moving toward the orphanage and he moves quickly to go blow them to bits. As he is shooting, he realizes that some of the gunners against him are children, abducted children just like the children he has rescued. Children who are being forced to kill. He realizes he is shooting at the very children that he is trying to save. With children who offend sexually (a sin that Christ died for), remember that somehow they have become trapped. They must be held accountable but please don’t forget, they are children.
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so your website supports the actions of LENA DUNHAM? are you really truly reporting ‘spiritual abuse’ or are you putting all your own evils under a rug? we are all fallen sinners. like i’ve said before the LGBT agenda has just as much if not ten times more problems with ‘spiritual abuse’ and pedophile problems. also, did you miss the interview with the victims? THEY WERE CRYING because of the LIBERL MEDIA cruelty. I don’t follow the same ‘religious patterns’ of the DUgars, nor anything ecclesiastical because of ‘native american’ heritage…… but there is something ‘fishy’ with the JIM JONES supporting liberal media these days.
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I have no idea what some people sleep is talking about. (Just so you know)
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Yes, we are all part of the “conspiracy.” (Insert a long dramatic eye roll)
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Some People Sleep: Dunham does get a bit of a free pass, because she is a libprog. Plenty of libprog child molesters out there, and some on the left are attempting to convince us to “tolerate” “minor-attracted persons”. Who knows, it may be the next big thing for them to crusade for. That being said, I think the response of Mr. and Mrs. Duggar was inadequate.
I urge everyone to leave the Duggar daughters alone. As the actual victims in this, they are entitled to their dignity. I have read some comments in various places attacking them, which is horribly wrong. There is not one “correct” way to respond to having been a victim of child molestation.
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Keith, that is ridiculous. I am liberal and progressive and I do not molest children nor tolerate those who do. I didn’t even know who Lena D. was until I read criticisms of her behavior with her sister on feminist blogs. I despise Woody Allen and will not see his movies. Do you link Denny Hassert’s molestation of a male student when he was a high school coach to his conservative political philosophy? I don’t and I bet you don’t either. So please do not make a link between child molestation and being on the left politically.
Crusade for tolerance of people who are attracted to minors? What are you talking about? If you mean that we – my fellow progressives – are going to argue that it’s normal then that is a reprehensible thing to say. I see this a lot, conservatives pick something heinous and say that liberals support it.
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Is ‘libprog’ the latest way to dismiss and diminish those of us on the left if the political spectrum? I hadn’t heard it before.
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Marsha: Do you want me to list all the left-wing people who have been convicted of child molestation?
“Libprog” I think is my own term. Maybe I picked it up somewhere. The Left “diminishes” me and my beliefs constantly, and without apology.
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Do you want me to list conservatives who have been convicted of child molestation?
Where is the connection between being liberal and molesting children? I believe in science, the equality of men and women, I believe in helping the poor and investing in public education, I believe in social justice. I believe in the separation of church and state. So somehow that will make me find little boys sexually attractive?
Conservatives can preach all they want against my political beliefs. This is a Democracy. But I am sick of being misrepresented about what those beliefs are. Nobody supports child molesters but child molesters.
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Marsha: No, I am not saying there is a causal connection between being ‘liberal” and child molestation. Neither is there one between being “conservative” and child molestation. There is an element of the left who support lowering age of consent laws and “tolerance” for “minor-attracted persons”. I think the DSM V even initially called pedophilia an “orientation”, but later claimed this was a typo.
Lately we seem to be having a bumper crop of female school teachers molesting their students. I would venture to guess that these women are not conservatives, by and large. But their politics don’t cause them to do this. They are evil and act accordingly.
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I would like to talk about ‘tolerance’ for people who are attracted to prepubescent children. I keep reading that it is somehow horrendous to call this a sexual orientation. Pedophilia is sexual desire for prepubescent children. That is the definition. Pedophiles are not oriented towards adults, they are oriented to children. What is the objection to calling it like it is? It is when we don’t that people make stupid decisions about not reporting crimes, about short prison sentences, about lack of close supervision after release and the like. Like the account of a church where everyone agreed not to report a man who molested a little girl in church. He claimed he did it because his wife was ill and unavailable. And of course he was very repentent. As he was the next time he molested a child. They failed to understand the seriousness of the crime and the effect on the victim but also the motivation for the crime. The man was sexually oriented to children and he acted on it. That makes him dangerous.
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I was wondering if any of you have picked up on some of the same questions I am having and am concerned about because it seems as if no one is talking about them.
These are my concerns: I read through the redacted police reports of the duggars– This is what I believed I read (I might be mistaken)– I believe I have read that the oldest girl Jana? was NOT molested but that 4 of the sisters were along with one other person (babysitter?). After reading the police reports and looking at the Duggars ages and list of kids, it would seem as if there was a VERY young child molested– I think it must have been the girl name Joy Anna? and it seems like she must have been very little– like 4 years old. In the police reports every one went through how the interviewer began by just ‘chatting’ with each child– and the ‘interviewer’ would ask them what they liked to do etc. and they answered like play kickball or something, but the one obviously ‘young’ one said play dolls or princesses or something like that. And I am sure one or two of the ‘incidents’ seemed like they took place while reading on a couch and another one he picked a little girl up and put her on a dryer and did something (that was the one that appeared to have been on bare skin) I just cannot wrap my head around why no one is talking about the little child. for a teenage boy to be in anyway motivated to attack such a young child is completely abnormal in everyway and very frightening to me.
the other thing that is so obvious is that the girls– although I know they are severely limited in their knowledge— they could not have gotten any ‘real’ therapy because they keep saying the same ‘talking points’ about ‘we have moved on’ ‘it is in the past’ etc. Anyway who has been abused knows that it stays with you and will be revisited many times in your life, there is no such thing as so easily saying– ‘it was no big deal and I have moved on” It just seems to me it is obvious from the parents to the children they are still in the very low knowledge level of anything that has occurred. Even for the older sisters to not seem to act like it is a big deal if their little sister was in fact also molested– I don’t think the older sisters understand how their own standing up for the molester can further hurt their little sister.
One more thing— I listened carefully what the girls said in the interview and what they said in the police report. I might be reading this wrong, but I think they are NOT saying or have never said they didn’t know what he did. They are saying they didn’t KNOW What it was– what it was called. I don’t blame them for not going into detail on television but I think if you listen to their words you will realize they knew that he did it, they knew when it happened, but they didn’t know????? what it was that he was doing? or what it was called?
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Well, well, well…..
Seems like the conference has been downgraded from a “super” conference to a “meh, it’s okay” conference.
https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/06/10/jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-reverse-decision-withdraw-from-homeschool-conference/
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There will be some disappointed people. I’m not, but I’ve decided not to go to any more state conferences until the main speakers aren’t promoters of patriarchy and all that goes along with it… (Check out the other “main speakers” of the conference. Sigh…)
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Here’s the main link to the rest of the crew: https://www.rockymountainsuperconference.com/speakers/
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I don’t blame you. I would hold anything remotely connected with Kevin Swanson as suspect.
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