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Ex-Wife of a pedophile shares from her heart about mishandling of sex abuse cases at The Village Church and Josh Duggar
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My friend, Brenda, is the ex-wife of a pedophile. With the recent events of Karen Hinkley, who is now in church discipline at The Village Church because she annulled her marriage without the elders/pastor’s permission, and also the recent news of sex abuse admitted by Josh Duggar (of TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting fame), it has left many survivors in a fury of emotions. I’m sure these events would be especially difficult for someone whose marriage was destroyed by sexual abuse. As soon as I read Brenda’s post, I sent her a text asking if I could cross-post it and her response, “absolutely.”
God is not amused by those who rush victims/perpetrators through a quick repent/forgiveness charade in order to check in the appropriate boxes so people can “move on.” God is not amused by wolves who care more about the letter of the law than loving on wives who have been harmed by their sexual-abusing spouses. I am grateful to Brenda for sharing her post with us at SSB.
You can find Benda’s article, Heartbroken and Angry and other great articles chronicling her very difficult path at A Solitary Journey.
Heartbroken and Angry
by Brenda Ratcliff
Two recent news accounts of childhood sexual molestation, child pornography ad the church’s response have reignited anger and sadness in my heart. I have felt for a long time that the evangelical church is facing a crisis much larger than what the Catholic Church faced when it comes to perpetrators operating within its walls. Churches are probably the last safe hideout for perpetrating pedophiles and it seems that the more conservative the church, the greater likelihood that molesters are at work.
The fir
st story involves TLC reality star Josh Duggar’s admission to sexually molesting numerous little girls a number of years ago. When the molestation came to light, his father kept it a secret for at least a year–he then told the church elders who buried the story for a number of months prior to alerting the authorities. Josh was sent to what was first called a “training center” but it turns out it was only a family friend who simply put him to work. There is no evidence that he received professional counseling and certainly nothing seems to have been done to provide therapy and support for his victims. The police detective who took the complaint is a family friend and it turns out is now serving a 56 year sentence on child pornography charges. No charges were filed against Josh.
And then there is the story of Karen (Root) Hinkley, a former missionary to Asia with her ex-husband. While overseas, it was discovered that he was using child pornography for his sexual gratification. The sending agency brought them home and he found shelter in his very conservative church. The church indicated in an email that Jordan Root knew that he could be arrested at any minute but assured its congregation that they were taking good care of him because he was “repentant.”
Karen courageously filed for an annulment of their marriage and it was granted. The judge granted an annul
ment rather than a divorce because she alleged that the marriage was based on fraud–that she had been deceived from the beginning. I wish I had thought of that strategy! When the church discovered that the Root’s marriage had been annulled, they placed Karen in church discipline for taking such an action without their permission! Meanwhile, the real villain, the real danger to children, the man who has admitted to criminal behavior and to pedophilia is in the safe harbor of his delusional church.
Both stories illustrate what is so very wrong in conservative evangelicalism:
- Male privilege & double standards: It is still a man’s world in far too many corners of the globe and especially so in fundamental religions. When men misbehave, it is chalked up to “boys being boys.” However, when a woman is even perceived to have misbehaved, the hard hammer of judgment falls on her. Churches who insist on the submission of women within marriage or in the church create an atmosphere where men can do no wrong and women can do no right.
- Cheap grace & pseudo-repentance: All that the skillful and manipulative perpetrator must do is admit that he has “sinned” and seek restoration. Little thought seems to be given to verifying his version of the
“sinful” events or of acknowledging the real seriousness of these crimes and the very real threat these perpetrators pose to innocent children. He says he is sorry, that he is all better now and church leadership takes him at his word. Our children pay the price for this stupidity.
- Women & children are expendable: Because women and children are not valued as highly as the men in the community, their pain is not validated as significant as that of the males. Their wounds are not properly tended to; indeed they are often not even recognized. The unstated understanding is that women exist for a man’s pleasure–not too far from the women as property mentality!
- Religion is used to control the narrative rather than to seek justice: Jesus defined true religion as one that cares for the poor, the widow and the orphans. Partners of pedophiles may not be widows in the truest sense, but they have been abandoned in a profound and catastrophic way. And violated children whose parents and/or church fail to protect them vigorously and seek justice for them are orphans. Instead of protecting the vulnerable and abandoned, the church seeks to control the story, contain the damage and sweep it all under the rug, unless of course, the perpetrator is a woman.
I’m angry. I’m disappointed in the institution I have been a part of for my entire lifetime. And I’m sad–sad for the victims whose cries are ignored or stifled–sad that the Gospel is so perverted by those whose aim is control and power rather than justice and mercy. Dear God, save us from ourselves!
(special thanks to Gary W. who mentioned this article)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Ok. I left a message on the forum, but I just want to thank Brenda again for writing this. I think she captured the anguish that so many of us feel right now.
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The church needs to be leading in the correct way to handle these cases. Report immediately! Stop sweeping it under the rug. Because, when it comes out later, it looks WAY WORSE than if you would have reported it right away.
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(part 1)
I’m afraid a lot of education is needed among a lot of conservative Christians and politically right wing people about these matters, because they don’t get it.
On some of the conservative and Republican forums or sites I sometimes visit (I happen to be conservative and Republican too, though the GOP gets on my nerves these days), I see a lot of posters (who seem to be, or who claim to be, conservative, Republican, and/or Christian) who are really brushing off the Josh Duggar story as one of the following:
1. The story is a bunch of to-do about nothing! Everybody should let it go (with rationales such as “boys will be boys,” “it was years ago so who cares,” etc),
while others are depicting it as, or complaining about, things such as,
2. how liberals are using this story against conservatives or Christians.
(Many of them keep mentioning left wing entertainer Lena what’s- her- name, who did something similar (she admits to having molested her kid sister when younger, and no, I am certainly not okay with Lena molesting her kid sister, either).)
I exchanged some posts with some of these people, but most of them were being very obnoxious and refuse to set aside politics.
Some of them assume because I am being critical of how other conservatives and Christians are handling the Duggar story, or how they deal with abuse in general, that I must be a secular feminist and Democrat.
(Apparently, in their universe, if you identify as Christian or a Republican, you MUST agree with all other Christians and Republicans, 100% of the time, and on every issue, or you are not a “real” conservative or a “real” Christian. *eye roll* I kept getting a lot of that mindset at the political site I was on.)
It is very stunning, scary, depressing, and alarming at how many other conservatives, Christians, etc., are willing to diminish child sex abuse (or other types of abuse) to rally the troops around the abusers, or to say abuse is not such a big deal, because they care more about the reputation of their political party, religion, or church than they do victims.
(continued in part 2)
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(part 2)
Some of the conservatives and Christians I was chatting with on the political site about these things were paying lip service to being against abuse, of course.
However, IMO, their declaration of being against abuse is undermined when they go on to say things like, “Where is your PROOF that Josh’s parents did not report the incident for a long time,” (I got comments like that), or, “However, it was years ago, the family wants it private, just move on now,” (and other rationalizations are listed).
A few of them want to harp on the fact Josh Duggar was 14 years old when he did it, AND it was over a decades ago (those points kept coming up) – as if any of that matters, or is a defense for what he did (it is not), and how his family mishandled it.
Also, a lot of the conservatives and Christians I was talking to on the political site are ignorant of the very basics of the case.
I am not saying I am an expert myself, but I read a lot of articles about the Duggar story yesterday to at least have a basic outline in my mind of what happened (like, it took the father over a year to report to anyone what the son did).
That is one basic fact that pops up in many news articles, about how the parents delayed reporting it, but the conservatives I was talking to didn’t seem to be aware of it, and some asked me for proof of it (so I gave them links).
How can they sit there defending Josh Duggar, the Duggar family, but not even know some of the most basic facts about the story?
(continued in part 3 – the last part, sorry to be wordy)
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(part 3, the last part).
Some of the conservatives I was speaking with on the political site (I am a conservative as well, so I’m not bashing conservatives as an entire group here), are also ignorant about how the theological beliefs of the Duggar family set the daughters up to being abused and the abuse being swept under the rug (you know, the patriarchy and complementarian stuff and the problems it creates).
I tried to explain it a time or two, with pertinent links, and I was basically dismissed by a few of the more obnoxious participants as being a left wing feminist (which I am not).
They want to defend this Josh Duggar guy for what he did or water it down, and only because liberals are using this to bash the right wing.
Further, some of them are totally ignorant about how some conservative Christian theology promotes abuse (when I mentioned that, they basically said I am a liberal or a Christian-hating atheist, and I am neither).
Some of them don’t want to learn. My impression is they are more comfortable staying in a conservative bubble where they are unwilling to acknowledge the people from their own side are capable of doing horrible things. It’s more important to them keep throwing rocks at liberals and feminists.
I told some of them (the ones who were very obnoxious) that caring about politics, or the reputation of your political affiliation (or your church), as opposed to caring for the victims, and lack of justice done, is pretty disturbing.
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My own ex-husband is now openly living as a homosexual. In our evangelical church, I became a pariah, a “one-woman leper colony.” He voluntarily left that church and went back to his home denomination, but the attitude remained. Even when the truth came out about his homosexuality, the established leadership was less than supportive of me.
I found peace — I realized that the people in that church were not thinking clearly nor honestly. I pity them. My life is now much better than it was, more than twenty years out.
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My ex-husband is gay, openly living in the lifestyle. Our evangelical church, when we separated, automatically made me the pariah – the “one-woman leper colony,” even though he left that church and returned to his home denomination. Even when his situation became known — someone saw him and his partner at a local grocery store — I was blamed.
It took a long time, and a lot of hard work on my part, but more than twenty years later, I have a good life and I am contented. I do not imagine he ever can be, although he fools himself for a while, now and then.
The male leadership of our church just didn’t understand a great many things, and theirs was very sadly a simplistic religion. It can’t hold up under real trouble. My former pastor’s life has fallen apart, some of the deacons’ have, too. I pity them.
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Daisy,
One of the things I found disheartening was the number of people who were lamenting that they couldn’t get their “favorite television family” fix, that with all the garbage on television, they were desperate to keep this wonderful, wholesome fare available.
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What fantasy land are they living in?
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JA, the sad thing is, I can remember being totally charmed by that family, probably when the show was something like “16 Kids and Counting” or maybe less. It would have been possibly 10 years ago — has the show been on that long? I do know the kids and I would take a break from homeschooling and watch half an hour or so. I was always amazed, how they seemed to be able to make things work. I was always hopeless at homemaking and being organized.
Interestingly, the youngest of them now say they never really liked the show, that it gave them the creeps.
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Elisabeth, thank you for sharing your story. Interesting how you got the blame for what your husband did.
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My kids still watch the show. And I cringe and add my editorial comments.
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(And JA, I wanted so much to have a bigger family than we had. I don’t know, in retrospect, how I would have managed. But “big families” somehow showed you were blessed, and the bigger the family, the more the blessing, or so it seemed.)
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Welcome, Elisabeth. It’s always sad to hear of pastors who miss the boat and don’t know how to truly care for someone. I’m glad you are now happy.
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One of my kids would love to continue watching, but gets so much flack from the younger ones that it never stays turned on.
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I get that, refugee. I still would like to share my personal story with dabbling in the full quiver ideology. With 7 kiddos I got a “job well done” badge among the quiver full crowd, but I sure heaped a lot of guilt on myself knowing that I was intervening in the process by using Natural Family Planning to space out babies.
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The Duggars were invited to speak at our state homeschool conference (check out the right-hand-side on this page https://www.rockymountainsuperconference.com/speakers/). Waiting to see what they decide…
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It’s very interesting how ultra-conservative values often go hand-in-hand with blatant hypocrisy.
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“It’s very interesting how ultra-conservative values often go hand-in-hand with blatant hypocrisy.”–Dash
I agree. They talk about the failings of others to avoid having to take a hard look at their own.
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I’m fairly sure it was someone on this blog, this thread or the last, who was asking about the Gothard connection in the Duggar story?
(I may be mixing things up. It may be someone on another blog who was asking, I’ve been to so many the last two days, reading up on these stories I get mixed up).
If anyone here was wondering about the Gothard connection, I think I found it.
_Silence led to no case for Duggar_ (Arkansas Online, by Chad Day, May 23, 2015)
If you go down that page to the part with this subheading: “LITTLE ROCK CONNECTION,” that is where it’s mentioned.
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Elisabeth, Thank you for sharing. That had to be a difficult time for you. Also, very glad that you are in a better season of your life.
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If Josh D would have been tried and convicted as a minor, would the record now be sealed and he still wouldn’t be on any form of sex offenders list? Does it depend on the state of the offense?
It seems as though his wife knew of his past activity before she married him. Wouldn’t that give a woman pause to say, “hey, this may not be a guy I want to have children with.”? I know it would me. You know, he might have to change diapers. Won’t he be temped again by that. (How stupid that excuse is!!)
I can’t even begin to imagine how many she will end up with. If a couple want a large family, that’s fine, but it should never be a church obligation or a race to see who can have the most. I wanted to have a boat load when I was young, but by the 3rd (and 2 miscarriages) I really thought it would kill me to go through it again and said that’s enough. I probably would have been fine, but I was content after 2, the 3rd was a bonus a decade later.
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Brenda R: I think many states seal juvenile records. It is a crime to release juvenile records, absent a court Order or a statutory exception ,in my state. This includes juvenile criminal records. As regards registry, my state grants the judge more latitude for juvenile offenders.
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Oh my gosh, Daisy…we really need a “six degrees of Bill Gothard” chart to figure out how far his influence is spreading. 😦
His conferences used to draw hundreds of thousands of people. Can you imagine how many churches spread his bull crap about counseling sexual abuse victims?
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Keith,
This means that in your state the judge can say Yea or Nay to the offenders list? Quite possibly what degree the offense was?
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Brenda R: Yes, and it is very frustrating. I cannot give details, but I had a case with a juvenile offender who pled guilty. Later i found out the juvenile was volunteering in the nursery of a large church. If I were to tell anyone there what the juvenile had done, I would be breaking the law.
Xian Janeway: You have an unusual surname! This is not a criticism, but i don’t think I have ever heard or seen this name before. Is it an anglicised German name?
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Keith, it’s her pseudonym. She uses the same name on Twitter and elsewhere. She has an horrific story that is posted at TWW. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/22/the-village-church-child-pornography-is-child-sex-abuse-josh-duggar-christian-janeways-story/
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Sorry, just found it to be a curious name, like Oldfather is Altvater. A lot of families anglicised their names during WWI. No offense or prying intended to anyone. So i guess Xian is not asian. I really am on slow cook mode sometimes. Please don’t hold it against me. insert smiley here.
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http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/founder-of-josh-duggars-treatment-center-left-after-sexually-grooming-teens-and-young-women/
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Keith,
That has to be very hard for you. No details necessary. The thought of this happening is triggering for me with that much information. Not your fault. I want to know. We need to keep our kids safe, even if it is from other kids.
Brenda
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Only a handful of states routinely seal juvenile records. Arkansas is one of them but juveniles committing serious sex offenses are included in the state’s sex offender registry. Juveniles are included in the registries of 37 states with varying requirements relating to severity for inclusion.
In my state, juvenile arrests and convictions may be found in the states’s criminal justice data base along with adult arrests. People can ask for a court order to seal their juvenile record providing that a certain amount of time has past without new convictions.
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@XianJaneway
“Oh my gosh, Daisy…we really need a “six degrees of Bill Gothard” chart to figure out how far his influence is spreading.”
Gothard has been the darling of a number of political movers and shakers, and is also supported by the family who owns Hobby Lobby. The Josh Duggar story is finally bringing attention to his horrific influence.
Btw, I could relate to your dysfunctional family story on TWW. Did you also experience spiritual abuse? I was blindsided by all that I’ve had to deal with since leaving a cult. It was only when I began to let my family back in to my life that I remembered how bad it really is. I wasn’t prepared to deal with that on top of everything else.
Thank God for all the wonderful people who share on these blogs. I would be lost without this support.
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Daisy
“I must be a secular feminist”
Have you noticed that any woman or girl who does not kiss their bottom, flatter their egos, will not have sex against her will, will not get over rape, or treat rapist a way (nicely) that please Christian men, will not stay married to wife beaters are always feminist?
They make it sound like feminist are the only ones who hate rape, and it is bad to hate rape.
Any woman or little girl that did not kiss my father and rapist bottom were always feminist, un submissive sluts. And it is always worse in their world to be a feminist, un submissive woman or girl, or slut then a little girl rapist or a wife beater.
Bitter, feminist, un forgiving are bully tactics used by abusive people. They and theirs are causing so much pain and exploiting so many people and children it is important that we all forgive, keep our mouths shut, and get over it fast. They should not feel guilty, ashamed, lose any money or power, it is every body else job to hurt in silence to save them and make them feel good.
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“They want to defend this Josh Duggar guy for what he did or water it down, and only because liberals are using this to bash the right wing.”
Because sexually abusing (5) little girls is no big woo.
The confidence or arrogance of Josh Duggar to feel safe molesting five different people.
Michael Jackson got away with molesting a little boy with cancer, Michael Jackson’s followers terrorized the little boy so much the little boy had to change his name.
They know they have people who are going to side with them against the sexually exploited, because they are important.
The Bill Gothard teaching trying to blame the victims of sexual abuse, just shows how vile these people are. Nothing should ever be the mans fault or the sexual abusers fault. I wonder if Jim Bob tried to get the girls to take some of the blame.
The hyper conservative men in my Christian family had a way of bullying any negativity about sexual abuse, they mocked, belittled, and then dismissed rape. Women and little girls who hate rape need to read the bible, forgive and forget, get over it, and if she does not keep her mouth shut about it she is a un submissive slut feminist. Yes, little girls who hate rape are slut feminist.
Christianity makes things so easy for sexual abusers and so miserable for the sexually abused.
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100pinkapples,
I have talked to women about the sexual abuse that I endured while I was a girl. There response: “couldn’t you have told someone?”. I know right there that they will not understand no matter how I explain it. They don’t get that children are groomed to put a lock on their mouths.
I am reasonably convinced that much like David’s daughter, Tamar, these girls were told not to take this thing to heart. Those who would give an answer like that are obviously delusional as to how debilitating these events are. And, yes, quite possibly convinced that they were at least half at fault. I don’t remember which blog I read it on, but a 3 year old was reprimanded when she was being forced to forgive her abuser in a pastor’s office when she hid under the desk. All these men (and sometimes women) care about is not being found out. They do not want their images and reputations smeared.
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Something I don’t understand at all is how sexual assault has anything to do with politics. No matter what your preferred party is, if you have one, whether you are conservative or liberal there are going to be those who practice and/or cover up assaults of all kinds. I see no connection whatsoever.
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“I am reasonably convinced that much like David’s daughter, Tamar, these girls were told not to take this thing to heart.” – Brenda R.
That is exactly what I noticed when I read the police report on the New York Times website. The girls in the police report talked about the sexual abuse and then they all gave the identical pat answers, without variation, about everything being fine. I thought they had to have been coached about what to say.
I also thought the police report was pretty disturbing. So Josh Duggar had to have waited for other people to fall asleep (parents, brothers) to go into his sisters’ rooms and sexually abuse them. Then he sexually abused someone else who was sleeping in the living. Somebody else under her dress. Incidences where people were wide awake. Just an increasing escalation in his predatory behavior and brazenness.
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The Bill Gothard teaching trying to blame the victims of sexual abuse, just shows how vile these people are.
____________________________________________________
It would seem to me that based on what was going on with Mr. Gothard all along, the things he was apparently doing to most women within his arm swing that have been revealed in recent years, that he was constructing a theology almost exclusively for the purpose of projecting his viciousness onto others and absolving himself of responsibility for all the sexual abuse he was inflicting upon women. I cannot imagine the Bible and the truth had anything to do with it, the Bible and our faith were props that were being abused by Mr. Gothard in a manner quite similar to the way he treated women. That is what these people do: they molest women, the Bible, the truth.
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Michaela,
So, so true. This was not a spur of the moment crime of passion. It was well thought out. A sexual predator gets heightened pleasure out of not getting caught. So it’s much more fun for them to get away with things right in front of other people.
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“Christianity makes things so easy for sexual abusers and so miserable for the sexually abused.” -100pinkapples
I agree with your entire post about sexual abuse. However, is what we’re really seeing “Christianity”? I think what we’re seeing is a False Gospel that has NOTHING to do with following Jesus. These freaks make a mockery of God who loves children.
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@Brenda R
“Something I don’t understand at all is how sexual assault has anything to do with politics.”
I wasn’t sure if your comment was referring to me saying Gothard is a “darling of a number of political movers and shakers.” My point was really to emphasize his influence. His teachings are directly responsible for how the Duggars mishandled Josh’s molestations. I’m not much of a political person myself. If I was going to discuss a political angle, I would probably point out his ties to reconstructionism.
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I’ve read way, way, WAY too many comments on news sites the last few days. A lot of people see the Duggars as just some freakish family with some strange beliefs. They don’t realize the person who they’ve been closely affiliated with (Gothard) has taught tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of adults and kids to handle sexual abuse the way that the Duggars did.
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BTDT,
No, it wasn’t. I think it was Daisy who was talking about being on a political site and caught flack over her opinions. It was an after thought on my part. There has been so much information on these 2 cases the past couple of days. It takes a while to absorb and maneuver through the triggering land mines. I personally choose the best of the worst on voting days and don’t claim a party. I figure anyone that is a really good candidate won’t get in office because they don’t have the $$ backing them.
Brenda
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@Brenda R
Ok. Sorry. 🙂 I just wanted to clarify my comment if I came across wrong.
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BTDT,
Until the past few years I didn’t even know who Gothard was. I’m sure there are many people in the same position. I was blissfully unaware while going through life trying to keep my sanity in an abusive marriage. It was while I was prayerfully finding information, reading my Bible without the voices of years of preaching in my head and breaking free from false teachings that lead me out of that marriage and found out about all of these false shepherds and their controlling, manipulative theologies. The first was John Piper and it went on from there. Oh, how my beliefs have changed. The one that stays completely in tact is Christ. Men will not take Him away from me.
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“Oh, how my beliefs have changed.”
Same here. Sometimes, I wish I could go back to the black/white assurances that my former cult taught. “If you’ll just follow this program and raise your kids like this everything will turn out great.” Oh, sure.
My family is still relatively young (my oldest will be 14 in a little over a week). I’m trying to find some balance for raising them. Like Truth Detector said above, I sometimes think my kids would be better off around atheists than the kind of Christians found at The Village Church. {sigh}
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There’s no need to be sorry. It’s all good. : ) Maybe a break from the news would be good.
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I do agree with you on that account. If your children are around atheists, you can guide them in the direction that you know is right. It’s hard to overcome bad theology and manipulation. I feel for people that are trying to raise children in this world today. You never stop being a parent and wanting the very best for them, but as adults they have to take responsibility for their actions. If they have been taught bad theology, it’s hard to say, “whoops, sorry”, I should have taught you another way. I have though on many things.
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I could not agree with you more. The material on how to handle sex abuse really does sound like material to groom girls. He already puts the blame on girls and their immodesty for enticing men and so it’s a setup for abuse because he’s trained them to take the blame for any crimes. I’m so disgusted by all of this.
And I’m REALLY disgusted by Christians who are defending Josh Duggar. Don’t even get me going.
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I cloaked a bit on this one. These stories really hit hard to be honest, and the fact that it bothers me truly disgusts me about myself. You see I learned as a Christian is number one, you get over it, before it even happens no matter what it is. Death, abuse, burns, losing sight, losing the ability to walk etc. You get over it, The number one thing is that you shut up, especially if it is anything critical in the church or against the power structure, you shut up. I can tell you the extent of my recovery was basically this “Get over it.”. Deeply I thank you folks here, WW PP etc really helps.
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Thank you for your comment, incogneto. I think that’s why personal stories are so important. They help to lift the blinders in a different way than if someone was trying to convince you of something. The get-over-it mentality is what so many of us experienced. I can sure relate to it.
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Let me tell you about “Repentant(TM)”:
My younger brother is probable NPD, possible sociopath, definitely manipulator. I remember once when he got in trouble; he was so Repentant, so full of Remorse, so so Sorry, so so Sincere —
Then Mom turned away. CLICK! OFF! All that Utterly Sincere Remorse and Repentance gone, replaced by a gloating smirk.
Mom turned back. CLICK! ON! So Repentant, so full of remorse, so so Sorry, so so Sincere.
Mom turned away. CLICK! OFF! Gloat, gloat, gloat.
Mom turned back. CLICK! ON! Crying with Remorse, So So Sorry, So So Sincere.
CLICK! OFF!
CLICK! ON!
CLICK! OFF!
CLICK! ON!
THAT is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear of one of these guys “Repenting(TM)”.
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@Brenda:
And adult third parties (especially in authority) are also groomed — to believe and support and back the perp 1000% if anything comes out.
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@JulieAnne:
The Land of Us (CHRISTIAN(TM)) vs Them (HEATHENS(TM)).
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I grew up from a young teen into my 40’s in a ‘church of christ’ C of C- in the NW- Washington. I went to several (I moved a few times) but they were all ‘independent’ but interrelated of course. I think what most people do not understand is that sexual abuse is not something you ‘get over’ because it comes back and triggers at so many different milestones in your life. Especially when your children reach the same age- etc. But many other things in life trigger new needs to process again and again and deal with new aspects. Unbelievably the little C of C I grew up in (about 50 people) had 7 pedophiles and abused about 15 girls. That is what we figured out when we were grown. When we were young we didn’t know all the pieces– only some of them and were powerless to do anything about it. These are the most disgusting and disturbing things I have heard from ‘Christians’ regarding the C of C and the abusers.
1. Relating to a pedophile of numerous girls in the church over many years (most reported at the time) and one known rape (reported at the time) **Reported means- tell the Elders and then shut up. In relation to him— “He had a very bad childhood you know, he almost had to raise himself.” “I trust him still, just like I did before– I watched him with my little girls on his lap and he would so nicely smooth down their dresses to be modest” “He just didn’t know how to relate to girls because of his difficult upbringing” “We are happy he was able to become a foster parent” “he was still listed as a [friend of the church} in the directory in 2006.
2. Relating to the wife of an Elder who had a sexual relationship with a child who went to her for protection from her abusive father. “I was confused– she was ‘taller’ than I was” “She wanted it too” “I am so glad that God allowed that to happen because I read so many books and learned so much” “Leaders need to be careful with their hearts when they are counseling teens because it is {easy} to be too loving”
” I am so glad everyone understands because I love teaching children so much I would never want to have to stop that (she is also a certified public school teacher).
3. Advise to the victims—- “you are bitter” “you need to be forgiving” “get over it and move on” ” you sound like you are vengeful”
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Julie Anne said,
They are all over social media, not just on the Duggar story but the Village Church one, too.
Tons and tons of super gullible Christians who think a pedophile having repented means everything is hunky-dory, women should not leave or divorce a pedophile (they should stay and work on the marriage), a few Christians have said it’s okay to leave children around a known (repented / Christian) pedophile (!!!)
Or the ones going on about, “But we all sin!,” or “You don’t think that pedophiles deserve grace” etc.
– and on and on with the stupidity, naïvety, and incorrectly applied theology (ie, forgiving a pedophile, they think, means you should hang out with them all the time, allow kids to be around them), etc.
The stupid things I have seen by Christians on social media about Village Church or the Duggars (the ones defending the abusers) is amazing.
I feel like I need to soak my brain in bleach to recover from it.
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Brenda R said,
I don’t think child or spouse abuse is political either but there are others who use news stories about these things to score political brownie points.
I am a right winger politically – I am conservative and vote Republican.
When I am on right wing political sites, and they report on the Duggar story, for example, I’d say about 90% of the right wing commentators scream, yell, and rant about how the left wingers or left wing media is using a story like that to make all Christians, Republicans, and conservatives look bad.
Back months ago, when left wing celebrity Lena D. admitted to fondling her kid sister when she was a teen, many right wingers used that admission by her to tar and feather progressives, feminists and Democrats to say “look how bad their side it.”
Both sides do it – liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans.
I’ve been known to point that out when on right wing political sites and most other right wingers do not like it at all. Some of them accuse me of being a left winger.
A lot of right wingers think or assume that all (or most) left wingers are morally bankrupt and godless, and the left assumes the same is true of all (or most) right wingers. They like to use these news stories as “proof” the other side is horrible.
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BeenThereDoneThat Re: MAY 24, 2015 @ 4:14 PM
When I’m on right wing political sites discussing this sort of thing, a lot of the other right wingers cannot or will not connect the dots.
Even after I give them brief summaries with links to more material about it, they do not want to learn how and why the theological beliefs of some conservative Christian groups enables abuse.
They seem to want to stay in their comfy, cozy right wing bubbles where only liberals and secular feminists are trouble, or immoral, and capable of molesting children.
I can’t get them to see that some of the junk right wingers teach (and again, for anyone reading I am right wing too, so I’m not bashing right wingers due to political bias) is just as conducive to causing or enabling abuse as anything folks on the left may teach or believe.
Many conservatives are bound and determined to see only the left as the enemy. They are not willing to examine their own side, and how their own beliefs contribute (of course, I see a lot of progressives who are just as bad about that sort of thing too, they’d rather stay in their progressive bubbles where only pro lifers, and Republicans and Christians are evil, horrible monsters).
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Daisy,
“look how bad their side it.”
This is all so sad. People looking to use these stories for political gain and not seeing the victims. None of this truly has anything to do with the politicians that are running for office or supposedly representing us now. They have their own skeletons they would like to keep in the closet more times than not. The picture that keeps repeating itself is Bill Clinton with the Duggar Family. He’s not a conservative by any means. There’s a lot of future voters in that family, let’s see if we can get a few on the liberal band wagon.
I have always voted Republican, but really don’t see a great deal of difference any more. They are all out for one thing–themselves. I’m fairly skeptical of politicians in general. We need to get back to where political office was a public service and not the highly paid job with long term mega benefit plan it has become. Then maybe people can get a conscience and remember the victims suffering and not use it as a scheme to under mind the other side.
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I’ve never watched 98 kids and counting. Why? Because of their Calvinist religious overtones. No one but a Calvinist would think that it was a blessing from God to have so many children. Why? Because they think that it is the sole purpose of life…to populate the planet with the kingdom of God…from the MOTHERS womb. They are just as confused as Nicodemus was when Jesus discussed the term, “born again.”
They think that you are cursed if you don’t have children at all. Therefore, they think that they are BETTER than everyone else, blessed above all peoples. And with that thinking, who needs the Duggars as any kind of moral compass?
Then, the church that put Karen Hinkley in discipline?????? She does not need “church” permission for anything. Nothing at all. What her church has done is to institute “traditions of man”, which makes void the word of God. I hope that she runs away from that church.
Calvinist thinking in every detail is vile.
Yesterday, I watched a lesson of Church history, which, of course, the Catholic church was the main focus, as the vile ones who made lots and lots and lots of modifications to their own doctrines over many years. In this sense, Memorial Day was dedicated to Martin Luther who confronted the Goliath of the day, the Catholic Church.
Why am I saying all this? Church…who needs it? No one. No one needs church.
Everyone needs Jesus, without the church. Those who belong to Jesus is the church, and WE have say. Due to the Catholics, the word “Church” has a meaning that Jesus did not intend. Examples: Call no man your father…what do the Catholics do?
But now, look at what the Calvinists are doing? 98 kids and counting? Populating the planet with Kingdom kids? I got news for ya…it don’t work like that! Read what Jesus told Nicodemus!
Ed
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“Call no man your father.” Precisely!!! What are the entitled-attitude males at Karen Hinkley’s former so called “church” trying to do to her? They are attempting to fill the role of a *father* to a minor child! How infantilizing! How horribly, horribly dispicable!! Every authoritarian preacher attempts to arrogate the role of father-to-minor-child vis-à-vis those who are so unfortunate as to come under their influence.
It is the part of wisdom to listen to wise counsel. However, whenever an adult, whether male or female, voluntarily yields their mind, conscience and will to a supposed pastor (or husband), they are violating the proscription against calling another man father.
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Gary W,
Who determines what “wise counsel” is? I hear that a lot in “church” circles only. I’m sure it is heard around an attorney’s office, as well, but not really much in the real world.
I’ve touched on this before, that an elder is supposed to be one who has “been there, done that”, and therefore, he is wise in giving counsel to others in order for others to avoid the pitfalls that he has been in himself. The “been there, done that” is the same as saying that he’s “lived life” and knows what he is talking about.
However, too many people are seeking “counsel” from people who have no clue about anything except how to tie their own shoes.
Ed
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Ed,
Good question. If I’m the one seeking counsel, I’m also the one who gets to decide what is and is not wise. In matters of faith, and life in general, counsel is to help me think things through on my own–not to relieve me of the burden of being my own man. There are exceptions. If a physician tells me I have a cancerous spot on my skin that needs to be removed, I had best not second guess whether the spot is cancer or just a rash. Still, even a physician does not get to play the role of father-to-a-minor-child, with me as the child. The doctor can recommend, but I get to decide, even if my decision is foolish.
Certainly there is absolutely no place for any “church” leader to foist themselves on an unwilling congregant, as is being done to Karen Hinkley.
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Great comments, Ed and Gary. I love this, Gary:
If I’m the one seeking counsel, I’m also the one who gets to decide what is and is not wise.
At TVC, Karen is not allowed to decide for herself. One wonders if Karen would ever be allowed to annul her marriage. On what timetable, at what emotional physical cost? Thank God she took matters in her own hands and used her own brain.
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Yes, Gary and Ed! We will know wise counsel when we hear it. It should always be own judgment in the end.
I once got very good advice from my pastor and changed my mind. My first husband’s father was toxic. Every time he came back into the lives of his children, he would behave badly again and let them down. At one point he decided to meet our two year old whom he had not seen and announced that he was willing to see us again! No apology.
My husband was all for it and wanted him to come for Christmas but I wasn’t because I didn’t want him to be hurt again. We quarreled about it.
My pastor suggested I give in. If he had argued on the basis of wifely submission, I would have dismissed the advice. Instead he said that I was undoubtedly right but then I’d be left with a husband who would never be sure whether his father had changed. He might blame me for the estrangement in the future instead of his father.
That made good sense and I welcomed my FIL to our home. Unfortunately, he behaved badly again to my husband and even worse to his sister, but this time my husband was the one to set the boundaries.
Our pastor was a genuinely wise person but he never asked us to substitute his judgment for ours. He only pointed out things to consider. Maybe that was why his advice was so often sought.
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Gary W and Marsha,
Your answers was exactly what I was looking for. Advice given instead of orders barked.
But what makes a “church” elder/pastor anymore an expert at advice than your next door neighbor that may not go to church at all, or goes to a different denomination?
What is the purpose of an elder in a church, if you can get the same advice from those outside the church?
Basically, when I say that the Calvinists are no different than the Catholics, I am saying that they put a burden on people, where Jesus takes our burdens, they make rules and regulations where Jesus didn’t. They add the law back into the New Test where Jesus didn’t. They have “go-to” experts that claim to know more than you do in matters of the Bible, all because they went to College to learn Greek. That means that you are dumber than a doornail, hence a sheep. They tell you things that bring you down, not lift you up. And when they do this, their own lusts of many sinful things surface, and they get greedy. No one is allowed to use their own mind in this sect. Your own mind was made up by someone else, some 400 years ago.
We need another Martin Luther to take down their dynasty of deceit.
Ed
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That shows wise counsel, Marsha. And I like that there was no pressure – as it should be.
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While I have the final responsibility for deciding what advice to follow or reject, I am privileged to have one person in my life whose discernment, understanding and wisdom much exceeds my own. This person never insists that I accept their wisdom, but when I don’t events tend to prove that I should have done so. The person of whom I speak has no title, such as pastor or elder. She is my wife.
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Right on, Gary!
Ed
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Gary,
That was very kind.
Brenda
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@Brenda
Thanks. It’s also quite true.
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Gary,
There was no doubt in my mind.
Brenda
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I came across this blog post from a link in a thread from the Catholic Answers forums, and from the tone and words from some commenters it’s clear that I am not among friends, but I cannot help but ask: why the virulent anti-Catholic venom here, and on a topic that should have nothing to do with Catholicism or Catholic theological differences from those held by most (all?) the commenters and readers here? I grew up Baptist, in a fairly fundamentalist (ok, probably very fundamentalist) home, and I entered the Catholic Church in 2011 at Easter Vigil precisely because I became convinced that its claims and beliefs were actually the ones most scripturally supported and founded.
And I’ve yet to find any Catholics in my parish or online in the forums who fit the ugly characterizations that I’m seeing here of them. Ed, in particular I must say, in Christian charity, if you think Jesus came to remove the rules and the law, you’re theology is rather far out of bounds of any traditional understanding of scripture, and you seem to be reading a very different Bible than I. Jesus actually said that not ONE letter of the law would pass away, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, NOT to do away with it, and Jesus constantly talked about KEEPING the law, KEEPING his Father’s commandments, etc. Theology aside, a simple cursory look at the recorded, known history of the early Church and its teachings and practices shows us that the “rules” for morality that you seem to be implying were just made up by the Catholic Chuch “400 years ago” were not, but rather were the same essential teachings on morality that the apostles were taught by Jesus and which they passed on to their successors. Read St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Clement I of Rome, the Didache for instance, all 1st Century and early 2nd Century letters and writings from men taught directly first-hand by St. John and other Apostles and this continuity of “rules” regarding morality, behavior, and the continuing applicability of OT law such as the Ten Commandments is quite clear. The CC didn’t “add” any of this; it’s been proclaiming the same since the beginning. Theology aside though: are you suggesting that, as your comments seem to claim, we aren’t required anymore to refrain from stealing, adultery or murder because Jesus removed the law? In charity I must assume that you did not actually mean this, but it sure sounds this way from just reading your comments.
And I’d ask that we please leave behind at last the silly objection about calling no man “father”. Jesus was using hyperbole-as he frequently did-and in this case merely meaning to not place someone else in the same authority or position as God. He didn’t mean “don’t call your own Dad ‘Father'” and St. Paul writes in 1st Corinthians that he became father to those in the church at Corinth through the Gospel! The title for many Protestant pastors is “Reverend” which means “a person to be revered” and is quite clearly the same thing as calling a priest “Father” for Pete’s sake!
I don’t demand you agree with or submit to the Catholic Church’s theology or all its teachings, but I’m just asking, in closing, that you try to refrain from the ugliness in your comments, since the topic has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, and I really don’t see the reason for the hate anyway.
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And as an added aside; No, nobody made me remove my brain or demand I not use it anymore in entering the Church. In fact, the learning and questioning and growing; the discovery of things of the faith, of the meaning and fullness of Scripture and of Church history that I never saw or knew before has really never stopped since my swimming the Tiber in fact. I can’t speak for Calvinism, since I was never a Calvinist, but the Catholic Church does not “bring me down with burdens” or “make my mind up for me” in the least :).
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Blacksword,
Welcome to SSB. I’m not sure how this conversation got off on the Catholic tangent, it really isn’t related to the topic and so I’m going to request that we bring it back. I spent 4 years at a Catholic HS and my Christian foundation was really cemented as the Lord revealed Himself to me through His Word. Although now I am not Catholic and have issues with some of the teachings, there are certain aspects that will never leave me. One of my favorites was when I entered classes and the Brothers would say, “let us remember we’re in the Holy presence of God.” That was a beautiful reminder to me of an ever-present God. Thanks for your comment!
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Blacksword,
I am a protestant, therefore, I have a problem with Catholicism. In addition, the Matthew 5:17-18 that you reference is an incorrect “translation”, because Jesus did not say that he did not come to destroy the law. He said that he did not come to destroy the Tenakh (TNK) The T stands for Torah and the NK stands for the Prophets and the writings (Psalms). Torah is translated as our English word “Law” and Torah is not the same as the Old Covenant, which begins in Exodus 20, which is the Law that you are talking about. In essence, when you stated that Jesus did not come to destroy the law, you left out “the prophets”. Therefore, the complete meaning of what Jesus said is that he came to fulfill prophesy of himself, not to obey the Ten Commandments. That was not the point of what he said. By deleting the word, prophets, you bring about a different meaning altogether.
Next, why do I have a problem with Catholicism? That was not my point, either. My point was in Calvinism. John Calvin is a former Catholic. My goodness, so is Martin Luther. But, Martin Luther has a much different doctrine than does John Calvin. Both Calvinism and Catholicism adhere to the teachings of Augustine.
And that…that is why I have a bad taste in my mouth when weird interpretations of Matthew 18, aka church discipline, is mentioned, because Matthew 18 is easy to read, and to understand. The Church has no authority to discipline anyone for any reason. That was a Catholic concept, which was brought over to Calvinism, because Catholicism states that Rome is “The Church”, when we as protestants know that “The Church” is “assembly of believers”, not authorities. They have no jurisdiction to dictate to anyone.
Ed
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Ok, Ed, we’re going to leave Calvin and Catholics out of this discussion. It’s a distraction to the current post which is really important right now. Thanks.
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Blacksword,
And lastly, Peter was the apostle to the Jews, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was a Roman citizen. Peter had no business being in Rome, so all of your church father stuff is, in my opinion, not a valid claim to Peter being a pope in any way, shape, or form. No one took orders from him. The claim that in the epistle of Peter that the word “Babylon” is code word for “Rome” is nonsense.
So, yes, I have a bad taste in my mouth for any teaching from Catholicism that was brought over to the “Reformers”. And there is a lot. Me, I am not in the Reform group at all. I am not a fan of John Calvin. I despise him and his teachings. They are abusive, hence this blog post about an ex-wife being placed in “Church Discipline”, which I am sure that the Catholic Church would approve of.
Ed
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Julie Anne, I had a point to make, which is why I mentioned both. Church discipline for this ex-wife is wrong, based on the Bible. Church discipline is wrong for any reason to anybody. And that doctrine originated from someone other than the Bible. And that point needs to be made. It is not a generic all out Christianity doctrine. It is not practiced where I go to church, nor has it ever been practiced in any church that I have ever been at. It needs to be known that this is not normal. The process is abusive.
Ed
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“Everyone needs Jesus, without the church.”
chapmened,
This kind of thinking is not Scriptural. It’s not even Christian. But it is gnostic. The gnostics thought the material world was evil and the spiritual world was good. This kind of view that you posit entails a disembodied Christ. Christ is the foundation, not of Himself, but of the Church. He is the Head of the Church – as it says in Colossians 1;18: “And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;”
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“Call no man your father.”
Me thinks many Christians misunderstand this verse. Paul the Apostle considered himself a father. “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” I Cor. 4:15. The problem in the church isn’t authority; it’s the ABUSE of authority. Furthermore, is we were to take this verse at face value, then *no man* would include ACTUAL fathers. I don’t think we want to go there.
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“And I’m really disgusted by Christians who are defending Josh Duggar.”
Julie Anne, I hear ya on this one! I give you a link to an article that J.D. Hall wrote on the J. Duggar. Basically it boils down to: He’s sorry, God forgave him, now let’s move on. Somewhere else on one of these threads here at SSB, I recall posters using the term “sin leveling.” I’d never heard that term before, but that makes a lot of sense with regard to this subject. You know, all sin is basically the same because it separates us from God. Therefore, pedophilia is no worse than being breaking a glass out of anger and frustration – even though the former can land a person in jail! Oddly enough though, if it’s a person’s sin from another Christian camp – say the Pentecostals or the Catholics – then Reformed fellas like Hall have no problem harping on their sin.
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It wasn’t my intention to sidetrack the thread so I’ll bow out. But Ed, I respectfully disagree with you. I don’t know what “church discipline” really even means, but it is VERY clear in Scripture that the Church founded by Christ (which I claim is the very same Catholic Church today) always had and always was intended by Christ to have the ability to proscribe moral constraints and expectations of behavior on its members. He gave the Apostles precisely this in giving them the authority to bind and loose, and while the idea of discipline in some odd corners of the Protestant world may look frighteningly like a detour into the world of a Nazi death camp, certainly Mathew 18 stands for the proposition that one who will not follow Church teaching can be rightfully expelled from the group. Indeed, to say otherwise is frankly to say that the Church is unique as being the ONLY institution or entity in the history of humanity that cannot dictate any required behavior of its members! I’m an attorney and if I don’t abide by the ethical rules of behavior for the Bar (my “group”) they kick me out. Same with an employer, a fraternal organization, or even an internet social group for that matter! And your position to the contrary is so extreme as to be uniquely invented in the late 20th Century among the “home church” movement, but was previously unimagined in any Christian authority in the Orthodox, Catholic, OR Protestant world.
“Babylon” was also a common code word for Rome at the time, so while you may disagree with this interpretation, there’s nothing “nonsense” about it. And, for the record, St. Peter’s tomb is IN ROME today, right under the altar at the Vatican! It’s documented archeological fact, an excavation in the 20th Century found the first Century tomb of a man there with the words “Peter lies within” written, and containing the bones of a man estimated to be in his 50’s or 60’s, a man sturdily built. The Church was literally “built on the Rock” just as Jesus said, and his tomb is right where all the Early Church Fathers attested it to be.
I’ll also just mention that the teachings of the Church aren’t based on St. Augustine. That’s a rather bizarre notion. His writings are very important, but they are themselves based on CHURCH teaching and Scripture, so it’s the other way around really. I invite you to have a look at Catholic Answers Forums sometime and make some threads there where these issues can be more fully discussed, and I’m sure I’ll speak with you again there if you do.
Again, I apologize for any derailing. As I said before, I found this very good blog post from a link from the aforementioned website. I’m angry and distraught about the Duggar scandal, it’s sad and sick. But I felt like we could surely address that without unnecessarily taking shots at Catholics or Calvinists, plenty of whom are good, heartfelt believers as well. I never thought I’d be defending the Calvinists, but here I am! 🙂
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Here’s the link to the Pulpit and Pen article on J. Duggar.
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/05/22/the-gospel-is-for-josh-duggar-too/
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Ed, I’m warning you – don’t take the bait. LOL! If you two want to debate this topic, I can create a page for you. 🙂 let me know!
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JD and I have been Twittering today. He did a podcast where he discussed TWW and me, evidently. I’ve been getting bits and pieces of it sent to me.
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Here’s a good article. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7445238?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067
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Blacksword,
How was that “Bowing Out”.
Brenda
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Julie Anne, and Blacksword, and Darlene…
I’ve been debating for a long time. I’ve heard the arguments before. I can assure you that I am not alone in my beliefs. My beliefs are based on something. What do you suppose my beliefs are based on? Bible alone. So, as the warning goes, I will not take the bait. But, I can debate with the best of them…and win.
Ed
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Ok, Ed, Blacksword and anyone else, look at the top of the page and you will see front and center “Off-Topic Discussion.” https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/off-topic-discussion/
Feel free to take the conversation there and have at it 🙂
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Ed, Blacksword has left a comment in the Off-Topic area I linked above.
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I assure The Village hasn’t ask a victum to rush to reconcile. Forgivess we should all, rush too on all occassion. Forgiveness isnt for the perpetrator its for the victim. I can assure you that the shelter that the perpetrator found comfort in will have to face a grueling journey for his own redemption. Isnt that the point of the church to shelter sinners?
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Gawker has given us a little peek at the angry emails they’ve received from Duggar fans. Some of them are just mind bending.
“Take a poll and see how many men have attempted to molest their sisters. I bet you would be shocked.”
“Most do not care a wit about what happened just a feeding frenzy on the downfall!!”
“You are seeking to report on the past, which is of no consequence.”
“This happened 13 years ago. Everything was taken care of how the family and involved friends saw fit. It was there decision NO ONE ELSE’S.”
http://defamer.gawker.com/angry-duggar-fans-send-email-hellfire-leave-this-fami-1707773109
I know many of us have probably read responses like this already. What is particularly disturbing to me is that I assume Duggar fans are, by and large, mostly “Christian.” What is wrong with people of faith who consider the sexual abuse of children to be “of no consequence?’ I guess all that matters is that we continue to maintain a facade of happy families with obedient wives and children who all know their place. Because that’s how children are protected, right?
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@Jill
“Isnt that the point of the church to shelter sinners?”
Pedophilia isn’t just a sin. It’s a crime. Churches shouldn’t be sheltering criminals. And they most certainly shouldn’t be disciplining innocent victims of said criminal.
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BTDT, my blood pressure just went up after reading your first comment.
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JA, Ugh. I know I can’t speak for everybody. But I would guess that many of us who have been shaken by the Josh Duggar and Jordan Root stories the past two weeks aren’t just affected by the stories themselves. Particularly in the Duggar case, it’s the general defensive response that is so repulsive. I think many of us can’t stomach the fact that other believers see sexual abuse as no big deal.
I know my faith shouldn’t hinge on how other believers behave, but how “can two walk together, unless they are agreed?” I know we won’t agree on everything, but can believers have a basic agreement on how heinous the sexual abuse of children is? I think this all proves that Boz is correct that the evangelical church has an even bigger problem than the Catholic church.
Here is a quote from the comment section of the above Gawker article. This person, whoever they are, is on my wavelength.
“Let me amend this stuff for you, bro in order to more faithfully describe reality:
Take a poll and see how many men in patriarchal, hypermasculine, religious communities where women are seen as cattle, subservient and devoid of agency or rights have attempted to molest their sisters. I bet you would be shocked.
No, we wouldn’t be shocked. It’s par of the course in such environments and in fact, well documented.”
http://defamer.gawker.com/take-a-poll-and-see-how-many-men-have-attempted-to-mole-1708691591
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Julie Anne on May 26, 2015 at 5:40 PM
JD and I have been Twittering today. He did a podcast where he discussed TWW and me, evidently. I’ve been getting bits and pieces of it sent to me.
Well, bless his little pastoring heart . . .
So sorry, JA.
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