Chuck O’Neal and Beaverton Grace Bible Church to host Jeremiah Cry Ministries “The Soul Winner” conference. O’Neal will be speaking as well as Open Air Preacher Tony Miano.
What a combination: a suing pastor and open air preacher who behaves like the “spirit of Westboro” speaking on soul winning. The conference is May 7-9, 2015 at my former church.
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This is Miano’s style of “soul winning.” It sure looks like his goal is to intentionally offend:
We all remember he calls this evangelizing, too:
https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/591971536870871041
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Patterns Abusers Use: Image Control
Does anyone else find it strange that during this week of the Jeremiah Conference, my former pastor’s blog in which he fabricates all kinds of stories about me is mysteriously gone?
Me thinks he is trying to clean up his image.
A little background for those who don’t know the story. I was sued by Pastor Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church on February 22, 2012. Two months later, April 19, four domain sites were purchased using a similar web address to my old blog: BGBCSurvivors. Buying four similar domains already in use is a tactic employed by dishonest people who are attempting to “phish” traffic to their site. There are legal cases involving this activity.
Dee of The Wartburg Watch blog covered this story:
Charles (Chuck) O’Neal – the Beaverton pastor who sued Julie Anne Smith, her daughter, and others for defamation – together with other church leaders, has launched a website called True BGBC Survivors: Surviving Four Years of Hate, Reviling Accusations, and Criminal Slander. If you’ve been reading here, you will remember Chuck as the pastor who sued former church members for $500,000. The story went viral and was covered by news outlets around the globe. (Source: Wartburg Watch Blog)
This is not the first time O’Neal has tried to clean up his image. His church blog was redone and looks much more family friendly. Another example is his Twitter profile. This is what his Twitter profile looked like during the lawsuit:
He later “cleaned” it up to look like this:
Chuck O’Neal’s blog “True BGBC Survivors” was activated with its first posts on December 2, 2012, some four months after he lost the defamation lawsuit and:
Announcements, such as on Twitter, that this new blog had been launched showed up as early as December 10, and some comments were posted the next day. (Source)
This “business” card was also on the “impostor” blog. Below is a screenshot that I took from the original site. These were cards that Chuck O’Neal’s wife, Tonya, printed -5,000 cards! Cards were placed on parked cars in shopping malls and even at a church where several former members were worshipping. The church security personnel had to quickly scour the parking lot to remove the business cards from the cars. If memory serves, they collected over 200 cards. This is how my pastor and his wife and church members behave. Below is a screenshot from the now-removed blog:
Trolls
That brings me to another notable pattern I’ve seen before: trolls. Those of us who have maintained survivor blogs know that trolls come and attempt to create division. I also suspect their goal is to keep me distracted from blogging, because the blog and my readers’ insightful comments are a threat to their “ministry.”
Yesterday, SSB commenter, Sage, came to the blog and commented these :::::cough, cough:::::: kind words about me:
You and many of your followers are akin to Jezebel. You are a bully. A liar. A twister of scripture. You openly mock, question and condemn believers you know almost nothing about. You take people’s word who believe as you do as the gospel truth, without ever realizing their motives or questioning their charachter [sic].
and
I know for a fact there are outright lies told here. Whether she is so blinded by her hatred for the standard christian faith and it’s teaching, especially on male & female teaching, or because she does not do due dilegence [sic]- either way she is at fault for speaking evil of men and women of the christian [sic] faith who she says she shares faith with but does not follow the scriptures in how she treats them or handles disputes. She is at fault for the outright lies told time and time again.
I highly suspect that Sage was sent my way to distract me from the upcoming conference. Sorry, Sage, your behavior outs you.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Good for you, JA. I am ashamed to be sharing the badge of herb with such a person. Sage, indeed! A foxglove is more like it– right down to the failure of the heart that it causes.
Sorry if I’m a bit sharp; been having a tough month. When I’m this tired I have no tolerance for asps. 😉
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You’re fine, Witch Hazel 🙂 haha
PS – I’m sorry you’ve had a tough month!
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“You openly mock, question and condemn believers you know almost nothing about.”
I just find that ironic in context of Tony Miano’s pious remarks to Fred Butler about Julie Anne’s need of salvation, seeing as he has never taken the time to hear her story.
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That is to say, there’s a big difference between discussing or condemning bad or false teaching (which JA does) and condemning a whole person to hell (which TM and associates do on a regular basis). I’m pretty sure I’m not elect in their book but they can’t do anything about the Book of Life since Jesus holds me. Their spirit is Accusation, and it must be condemned as arrogant prideful sin.
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Tony Miano’s tweet about offending the perishing is not consistent with his claim that his heart is for the lost. Jesus wept over lost Jerusalem. I think Miano would have just written it off.
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None of that camp has heard my story except for Phil Johnson. The rest have heard it directly from CON – his twisted version. And interestingly, no one wants to hear it from me. It might have to do with my sex, the inferior one, ya know?
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Sage said,
I’m not exactly sure what this person means by that.
I will go out on a limb and guess Sage is referring to gender complementarianism, which encompasses, among other views, that women should not be preachers, and some gender comp churches extend this to also insist that women should not be teachers?
Or, maybe Sage was speaking in general terms of Julie Anne’s views about gender roles within the Christian community?
Either way….
On a previous thread, I wrote four or five posts explaining how Christian “male and female teaching” (i.e., biblical gender roles, traditional gender roles, gender complementarianism, whatever term you wish to use) was damaging to me personally.
I am a never-married, childless woman – conservative Christian teachings not only unduly limit married mothers, but they create conflicts for women who are single and childless.
I wrote more about that _in this post_ in an older thread (“Encouraging Shift…”),
and _in this post_ (same thread).
And, if you care to scroll up and back down that comment section from either of those comments of mine I’ve linked you to there, you will find a few more posts by me where I take issue with gender complementarianism and explain how it is harmful to women.
Maybe Sage would like to visit that thread and tell me how gender complementarianism is supposedly so wonderful? (Gender comp did nothing but hold me back in life. I had to reject gender complementarianism to have a chance at having a normal, healthy life.)
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Well, my two links in my last post didn’t work.
I’ll try putting one of the URLs in here, maybe that will work:
How Gender Complementarianism (Christian teachings about men and women) are damaging to people (especially women):
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/04/29/encouraging-shift-from-bethlehem-baptist-church-regarding-domestic-abuse-and-care-for-abused-women/comment-page-1/#comment-262124
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Sage said,
Let me guess, is this the ol’ “take 2 witnesses with you and confront the jerk in private” shtick?
I fail to see how such biblical passages apply when Julie Anne and the rest of us here are critiquing or opining about broad trends we see in the church today, or with public Christian figures who make public statements.
We have a right to comment on the statements, tweets, blog posts, radio shows, books, and other material these Christian figures release to the public.
Sometimes, venting or discussing some of these issues in public – even ones that initially took place in private – occur because the person (or persons) or church involved shun the individual who has a grievance. The internet may be your last avenue of redress.
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Julie Anne said,
As an experiment, try writing some of the same things under a male name some time.
I did that once many years ago. I was the moderator at a forum that got a bunch of IFB guys – they are very sexist.
When I wrote under my male pen name on the forum, though, they were far more respectful to me, didn’t insult me as much, and took my points seriously.
When I wrote under my feminine name, the IFB guys spent more time coming up with gender-related insults, telling me that women should not be teaching /leading men, etc.
When I wrote under my feminine name, my gender was the issue. -Not the content of my posts, but my gender.
When I wrote on that forum under a man’s name, all that was moot, and they were willing to deal with the substance of my comments and arguments.
Once I wrote under a male moniker, I stopped getting condescending lectures from them about why women should submit to men, why women shouldn’t do this or that.
It’s fascinating to watch. Also very sad… that some men can’t treat you as an equal but have all sorts of hang ups about talking to or with women.
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Daisy, funny you mention that. I was tweeting with Stephanie Drury of Stuff Christian Culture Likes and she said the same thing! And here’s the thing – I did not used to think this way at all. It never would have entered my mind. The first time I ever noticed it was with Grace Community pastors and it was confirmed to me when I asked another defendant in our lawsuit how her conversation went with one of the GCC pastors. I intentionally did not tell her my experience because I did not want to influence her answer. She said she had been treated like a less-than and it validated my experience 100%. Even after that, I brushed aside comments that others saw as sexist (even here on the blog when other MEN noticed it and told me).
Now, I have come to see it very prevalent in the complementarian camp. I find it disgusting. Here’s Stephanie’s tweet.
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What is the standard Christian faith? Is there a set of man written rules that you abide by so you can call yourself a standard Christian. I am a follower of Christ and if Jesus wants me to speak our against abuse in the Church then that is what I will do because that is what He did.
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Re: Julie Anne
MAY 6, 2015 @ 8:59 PM
Yep, sadly, that was my experience. When I began posting under a male name, I was listened to, respected, my gender was not the focus.
About the only positive thing I can say is that after I had been a moderator there for several years, the men got so accustomed to me being a moderator, they shut up about my gender.
It was kind of bad at the start, I can’t remember for how long, maybe about two years or so. But at some point, they stopped harping on my gender.
But it seemed like it took a long time. Men get inspect respect from some complementarians, while women never get any respect (or it takes a lot longer).
By the way… the reverse of this?
When I post under a gender neutral name, when I am not hiding my gender but not advertising it either, when men cannot tell if I am a man or woman, if they enjoy my comments – if they find me funny, witty, intelligent or a tough debate opponent – they always assume I’m a man. They are shocked when I tell them, no, I am a woman.
If you have the time, you should read (or skim) this:
Why Aren’t Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Person.
Also look up the history of the word “Mansplain.” I think that term got started by a lady named Rebecca Solnit, who wrote a book called “Men Explain Things To Me” where she discussed related issues, how men don’t take women as seriously as they do other men, etc.
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You know what, the first thing I spotted about CON’s “new” card is that he has removed the word “evangelizing” from his self-description. It’s a pretty sad day when a guy who calls himself a “pastor” yanks the Great Commission out of his activities…..
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Soul Winner?
Is this conference going to be about The Only Soul Winner, or about preachers and how God cannot save people without them? I see two preachers in the conference banner ad and no mention of Jesus.
Why do I think this is going to be a oonference all about themselves and their… humble-awesomeness?
Oh well, maybe Miano will learn a new strategy!!!!!!!! so Phil Johnson doesn’t have to write another mysterious FB post about how certain strategies are done by certain friends of his that exhibit a spirit of Westboro…and posts said FB post right after Miano makes his pathetic tweet. (Of course, that was probably a coincidence …the timing of Johnson’s FB post…right after Miano’s tweet… and had nothing to do with his tweet…even though Miano’s tweet defined Phil’s Westboro-ey concern.)
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Great comment Tim at 8:35 PM!
Matthew 23:37-39 in which Jesus longs for Jerusalem to be gathered under Him fits beautifully in comparing ministry methods. Jesus’ ways are so much different than most humanistic ways of what is defined as “evangelizing” today. To have that deep of love for a people who kept straying is but a mystery that industrialized societies deem difficult to understand. Instead of Christians taking care of one another (if one of us is starving it is our Christian duty to give to them directly), we send them to every government program possible feeling pretty good about ourselves (vain piety) instead of sacrificing from our own wealth and prosperity in loving/helping our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I often wonder how much Christian pastors/leadership, or any in authority who choose to lord over the people suffer and sacrifice for God’s people in these times. Jesus laid down His life, humbly and willingly for His sheep/people……for us. Can we really fathom such love…….truly? Rare is the humble man in this culture……rare indeed.
As the hearts of men grow colder and colder (for this is prophesied in the Word of God), I believe we will see an increased plethora of the “jezebel spirit” name calling and labeling. This cowardly phrase was used in my former church to sift out those who did not subscribe to the “lying signs and wonders” type and shadow arm of the charismatic “self made law.”
The “jezebel” labeling is a cowardly disgrace to the Body of Christ and used by abusive personalities who use extreme measures in brainwashing people in religion. Having sat under a pastor man who used this from his abusive pulpit, then was literally caught in immoral sexual sin and asked to resign from his lord over leadership position, brings dishonor, shame, and disgrace to the Name of Christ. And from these types, there is never any brokenness nor repentance, and no apologies to the sheep he has left bleeding in the corral. He simply packs up and moves on to the next ranch to abuse his next flock because he loves the sound of his own voice, which is but a loud, shallow gong.
To you Sage, I will say this with the upmost respect to your soul. Here at Spiritual Sounding Board, I have been ministered to in such a way that brings Praise, Honor, and Glory to Jesus, my Redeemer. This is His ecclesia, His Body, His (church) here that has brought such hope to my soul and I am truly thankful for this ministry. This is worship here, the precious Scriptures, the beautiful music that stirs my soul, and the fellowship of the saints. I, personally, have experienced more edification in my faith in Jesus alone, from this and a few other sites from fellow believers and followers than all of the years I have sat in an institutional church. For within those walls, many have been beaten up with words and actions and left for dead like road kill, this is NOT what Jesus intended for His Body on a daily basis.
The testimonies offered here by incredible people speak to me and bear witness to Christ for I have seen many say, “I will pray for you, or I am praying for you.” Jesus said, “My house shall be called a ‘house of prayer.’ ” We are called to love, care, and especially pray for one another as our Master has called us to do, in the secret place no less, so our prayers will be heard. I have literally witnessed the “living stones” practicing this command more on Julie Anne’s website than I have experienced in a church building environment.
And I am broken over such faith in Jesus alone, amongst His people here. I truly love these people and pray for them as God, the Holy Spirit, moves within me, leading me.
So dear, precious Sage, I want to say that we love you in the Name of Jesus and will be praying for you.
“And Jesus came and spoke to them (the eleven disciples), saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Matthew 28: 18-20
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Daisy,
I guess then because serving the God of the universe held you back in your opinion we should change God and God’s ways? Because you might of had to lay down your life, pick up your cross, lose yourself to find yourself we should just scrap the whole book because it just didn’t work for Daisy. Let’s ignore all the hardwiring that God has put into men and women. Let’s ignore the repeated passages on wives submitting to their husbands. Lets ignore the fact that when He had twelve slots to fill He didn’t fill a single one with a woman.
Because complementarianism doesn’t work for you Daisy we should scrap it. I’m sure it works for all the men of the world. I’m sure they love carrying the burden of loving even unto death like He did. I’m sure they love working till their hands bleed. I’m sure the burdens they carry of being teachers and preachers are a thrill- from being judged more harshly to being accountable for their actions and words to God. I’m sure the men love going off to war to fight & die to keep their women and children safe. I’m sure men have never said this ain’t working for me. This is hard. I don’t like this.
I’m sure we should ignore what feminism has done to the family- to children. To men. And to women- less happy, popping anti-depressents like they are going out of style, aborting and killing their own children, running around like crazy because they can’t keep up, can’t find a husband, don’t want a husband, becoming lesbians or transgenders- or God only knows what’s next on the list of depravities as you get further and further away from Him.
But Lord, Daisy has declared it. You are wrong. She is right. She’ll tell you Paul and Jesus had it all wrong when they were picking disciples and teaching on marriage. After all their is no longer any male or female- oh wait, Paul wrote that. The one verse she hangs her hat on- but then she has to discredit everything else that man says to prove that one verse. God you must of had it wrong.
Boy you think the God of the universe who could create all this would have made it more clear. “What, you tell me He did?” He made it very clear? Oh, you’re saying sinful human beings who love themselves and their sin more than Him will justify anything to get their way and their sin. Lord, tell me it ain’t so…
If there is one thing that is clear on this site it is that feminism is your god, not the Rock of Ages. You’d sell Him down the river in order to not have to abide by what anybody (even those who don’t believe) is clearly stated in His Word. The reason most of these “abusers” are abusers in your book is because they, their wives, their families and their churches disagree with you about the role of men & women. To you this is abuse. You call a couple millennium of believers, including your Lord and His disciples abusers in doing this but you have no problem with that because your lord is your feminism and egalitarianism. What was the normal 50 years ago is now considered abuse. You condemn your grandparents, your great grandparents, Jesus Christ and His disciples but as long at the end of the day you can delude yourselves into your feminism you don’t have a problem with it. So you become wolves to the sheep and the shepherd’s in order to have your gospel of feminism and your gospel of “nice” all the while being very unnice yourself in the process each and everyday becoming more filled with hatred and evil.
Repent. There are those who truly abuse people- men women and children. Let us reserve your wrath for them. Not every John Doe & Jane Doe (rarely on the Jane Doe) who believes as Jesus, Paul, your grand parents and most christians for two millennium. Choose this day whom you will serve- Yahweh or feminism. The Rock of Ages who has no problem saying, “I have come to case fire upon this earth; and how I wish it were already kindled…Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division.” or the god of the new age that is not about offending people. Choose this day whom you will serve.
As far as my claims on Julie Ann, let’s say I know families who have had outright lies spoken against them by her. I have first hand knowledge of the situation and there is no lie or accusation to big as to not spin and no accountability for her words. You gobble them up because you are sheeple.
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Sage: You said to Daisy–” Let’s ignore all the hardwiring that God has put into men and women. Let’s ignore the repeated passages on wives submitting to their husbands. Lets ignore the fact that when He had twelve slots to fill He didn’t fill a single one with a woman”
You are a real case!! Please read the whole Bible, not just your conveniently selected verses.
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Repent, Daisy! Repent!!!
Just because someone has a different point of view doesn’t mean they’re going to hell or need to repent of anything.
Sorry, Sage, but I can’t read anything you write without hearing a loud, angry voice coming from behind the screen. With sincere honesty, I can tell you that your tone is not inviting. I am hoping that you would like some conversation. If so, you may want to think about how you come across because you seem to have set up a very strong wall. Otherwise, I would guess that most of us will dismiss you because no one likes a stern talking to.
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After seeing the length of Sage’s last comment, I was thinking, hmm, could be Chuck? Well, I know that Sage is not Chuck O’Neal. He doesn’t usually misspell words and he doesn’t misspell my name.
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Sage said,
I know you have made the claim about JA speaking lies about people, your credence in this area has been called into question many times and you have yet to give us one example of a lie. You are here to cause division only. Now what does the Word say about that. JA did not bring this situation about. It was her ex pastor that chose to go against the Biblical principal of bring a fellow Christian to court and yet you support them by your silence about their actions.
I thought at first you might be TM or CON but it seems like you write too well to be them. If you came here to create a division of the followers of this blog and to bring the followers to a point of discarding JA and this blog, you are failing. Why don’t you put your keyboard away and concider praying and then listen to the Holy Spirit so you can begin to grasp the truth of the situation.
Jim
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Dear Sage,
I still love you despite your words to Daisy. This, my friend, is where the rubber meets
the road, all eighteen tires no less……
Miss Daisy was one of the first people to address my hurts when I first began visiting this website. Her encouragement brought forth joyful tears to my eyes, and peace and comfort to my hurting, struggling soul. She is salt of this earth and a true disciple of Christ and I personally look forward to the day I shall see and meet her at the Second Coming of our LORD Jesus, the Christ. She is my sister in Christ and I shall stand with her.
As far as feminism goes, I gave up trying to define this years and years ago as my life changed course and I was required to do things of which I was not equipped to do. I received training and now work in a man’s world and have received the greatest amount of encouragement and respect from the men with whom I work and come in contact with, and the greatest amount of opposition from ‘church’ women who love to throw in my face the vocation currently occupying my non-busy body time…..I drive semi-trucks, tractors/farm equipment, and can outlast and high school athlete picking rocks by hand.
Knowing who I am in the security of Christ defeats the concept of feminism……for the Holy Spirit stirs these verses inside of us “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:27-28
Love Galatians….just love it. Praise God.
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You go, girl!
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Regarding Sage’s post of MAY 7, 2015 @ 7:17 AM
Complementarianism is not biblical. As I said on a previous thread, gender complementarianism is a mixture of sexism and codependency, also combined with a faulty interpretation of the biblical text.
And no, it does not work. Secular culture also conditions women to behave and believe the same thing Christian gender comp (complementarianism) that Christians do, only they do not use the term “gender comp,” nor do they use Christian jargon.
If you read secular books by experts on crime, domestic violence, and related issues, you will see that the very traits Christians such as you brainwash women to believe in (eg, be submissive to your husband, it’s selfish to have boundaries, etc), makes girls and women more vulnerable to being raped, mugged, kidnapped, attracting abusive men, and, on a lesser scale, being taken advantage of by co-workers, family, and friends.
The Bible condemns codependency.
For example, the Bible teaches that women are responsible for themselves and to God for their lives and behavior, and not to husbands or other human men.
The biblical passages that talk about not being afraid of men, and the righteous being as bold as lions – applies to women as well as to men.
Gender comp ignores such concepts, and teaches women instead to be afraid of people, to defer to men (under misguided “submission” doctrines), and don’t defend yourself (expect a man to defend you), etc.
God would not ask or demand women to follow teachings that do not work for them in daily life. Gender comp only works for middle class white women who live in the United States.
Gender comp advocates presupposes that those who follow it are middle class, white Americans. Gender comp does not work for women who are single, divorced, childless, and who are in poverty and live in Africa.
I would suggest you read this for more on that:
On Being a Woman After God’s Own Heart – Biblical womanhood, or cultural womanhood?
If a Christian teaching purports to be applicable for all women of all times and cultures and societies, it must be workable for all women of all nationalities, income brackets, parented statuses, marital statuses. And Christian gender complementarianism fails at this.
(end of part 1, continued in pt 2)
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(part 2)
Sage said,
Responses.
1. God did not “hard wire” men and women to be one way or another.
That is an assumption that gender complementarians make,
eg., that all women are super girly girl, love to wear pink dresses, and knit scarves.
I fit none of that. I’m not a girly girl who likes to wear pink dresses and knit.
2a. The Bible says that all Christians, and this includes husbands and wives, are to submit to each other.
“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Ephesias 5:21
2b. And “submit” in Ephesians does not mean,
“The husband is the boss of the wife, and she must follow his orders.”
2c. Submission has to be voluntary, or else it’s not submission, but male complementarians will command women they are of no relation to to defer to other men.
3. Christ choosing men to be the first twelve apostles.
a. Christ later picked Junia, a woman, to be an apostle.
b. See: But The Twelve Apostles Were All Male
(they were also all Jewish, and one betrayed Jesus)
Sage said,
Feminism is not the problem. Gender comp is. Gender comp seeks to suppress women, which was not God’s intent.
Further, my mother had clinical depression, as did I, and we had to take anti-depresssants – and we had depression because we had been brainwashed to accept complementarianism, which is nothing but codependency. Being gender complementarian did not bring me joy – quite the contrary. Being gender comp contributed to my depression.
BTW, there is no shame in taking anti-depressants. (Faith, prayer and Bible reading does not heal people of depression.)
I tried anti-depressant medications to treat my depression, and they did not work for me, but they may help others. What helped me was a change in thinking – I realized that gender complementarianism (which is the same thing as codependency) was at the root of much of my depression.
When I realized that gender comp was totally bogus, and that it’s okay for me to not be a doormat, my depression lifted.
Let’s discuss what worship and idolatry of “the family” has done to everyone and anyone who is single, divorced, widowed, and childless: the extreme focus by conservative Christians upon the “traditional family” or “nuclear family” or “traditional marriage” excludes or marginalizes anyone who does not fit that very narrow demographic.
As of 2014, American adult singles comprise over 50% of the U.S. population, and as of ca. 2006 or 2005, only 18% of the U.S. population consist of never-divorced married couples who have children. Another slice of the demo pie consists of about 23-26% of married couples who do not have children.
Despite the fact that childless and single adults make up the majority of the culture, many conservative Christians ignore them to chase after “the family,” which they have turned into an idol.
Jesus Christ condemned such thinking and behavior in teachings such as,
I don’t agree with secular feminism in toto, but in so far as secular feminists teach and promote that the genders are equal, they are reflecting what the Bible says in passages such as Galatians 3:28 (there is neither male nor female in Christ), so they are correct.
Sage said,
The verses you “hang your hat on”, I would take it, since this is true of most other gender comps I’ve seen, is to take a few verses out of context and apply them to all women, or, you take verses intended only to address a particular culture at a particular time frame, and make such passages apply to women in 2015.
Other than Gal 3.28, there are examples in the Bible, both Old and New Testament, of women leading and teaching men, such as Phoeboe, Deborah, and Junia.
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Has Sage called us bitter yet? 🙂
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(part 3.)
Sage said,
I don’t know what “feminism” means in your sentence there.
I do not identify as “feminist.”
In so far as I remain Christian at all, my theology remains orthodox and conservative.
Politically, I am right wing, though not as keen on the Republican Party as I was, but I still don’t care for the Democrats. I am a social conservative, in that I am pro-life and still believe that the Bible teaches that homosexual sexual behavior is sin, etc etc.
(I mention all that only to demonstrate I am not liberal or a secular feminist. Guys like Sage will usually assume someone like me who rejects gender complementarianism must be an extreme left wing, pro choice, Democrat voter.)
I mean no offense to Christian ladies who self identify as “Christian feminist” or as “Jesus feminist,” but I find that there is so much baggage with the term “feminism” I have a hard time using it for myself.
So, Sage, I’m not a feminist. I can’t make feminism my idol if I’m not feminist.
(continued in Part 4)
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(Part 4)
Sage said,
Christian Gender Complementarianism lays the foundation and groundwork to put women in situations that sets them up to be abused, and it enables abuse in some cases, so in that regard yes, it’s abusive- and it’s repressive for all women, regardless of their marital status.
Gender comp is not biblical. Jesus did not support or teach gender comp. Neither did the apostle Paul.
Sage said,
I’m not a feminist. I disagree with secular feminists on many topics, as a matter of fact.
I actually disagree with the gospel of nice, because, guess what?
I was raised to be gender comp, which in turn is mainly nothing but codependency wrapped in biblical jargon, and one of the core tenets of Christian codependency is “niceness.”
I’m not a supporter of people being rude, condescending jerks, but I’m not on the “niceness” bandwagon, either.
A Christian author duo, a man and a psychologist woman, wrote a great book explaining how Christians teaching women to be “nice” is damaging to them, and the authors therefore encourage Christian women to be good, not nice.
Their book (and I highly recommend it) is called “No More Christian Nice Girl,” by authors Paul Coughlin and J. Degler.
Because codependency (i.e., being a super nice person and being a big doormat who lacks boundaries) is also sometimes passed off to Christian men as being “biblical manhood,” the male author wrote a book just for Christian men called “No More Christian Nice Guy.”
Sage said,
I don’t have anything to repent of.
The “Rock of Ages” to whom you keep referring treated women like equals. Jesus took women and their views seriously and treated them as intellectual equals. Jesus did not tell them to keep quiet and submit.
The Pharisees of Jesus’ day are the same as the gender complementarians of today in their view of women.
You kept mentioning my grandparents. I don’t recall mentioning my grandparents in this thread or the last one.
You may be confusing me with another poster here, named 100pinkapples, who said abuse runs in her family, and I believe she mentioned her grandparents a few times.
And from reading her posts, her history of sexual assaults by her male family members, was in fact grounded in gender complementarianism.
Gender comp produces much bad fruit, and Jesus said you can detect bad people or bad teachings by the bad fruit it, or they, produce.
It looks to me as though you, Sage, need to repent of your sexist, uncaring attitudes towards women in general, and specifically against people who have depression (you seem to mock them for taking medication), and you should repent of diminishing the sexual assault of women, which is what you did in this post I was quoting from.
Sage said,
Jesus Christ and his disciples did not teach or support Christian gender complementarianism. You only think they did, and you are mistaken about that.
I have to say too, I can’t tell if your posts are totally serious, or if you are trolling in Poe form, or what. If it’s been a Poe, I applaud. It was very well done.
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Thanks Julie Anne for the forklift….you are certainly an encourager! And please forgive me if my post sounded boastful for that was not the intention of my heart. I had to learn to farm after my wonderful father-in-law, whom was an encourager to me as well, died from a brain tumor and that brought my husband and myself to our knees before our LORD in asking Him for help. Literally, in prayer.
Truth be told publicly here….if I had a dollar for every tear shed in secret because of the trying, difficult times, I would be a very wealthy women, monetarily speaking. Since I am not wealthy monetarily, I believe all of here know where our true riches lie…
In Christ!
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Katy – you described so realisitically why gender comp roles just do not work. We are in a real world with real life issues. The real life issues we are dealt don’t have a “men only” or “women only” sign attached. That is man-made garbage. We do what needs to be done without regard for what is between our legs. Good grief, this is basic.
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Something I wanted to expound upon.
Above I wrote (though this is currently a post that is in moderation last I checked),
That’s right. Gender complementarianism can be harmful to men too, not just women!
Different churches, preachers, and denominations, can and do have different degrees and flavors of gender comp (gender complementarianism), however.
Some pastors and churches teach men that gender comp (sometimes referred to by them as “biblical manhood”) consists of men ruling their wives with an iron fist, like a dictator would.
In addition to that, these promoters of this brand of gender comp for men encourages men to engage in stereotypical Hollywood “manly-man” pursuits, such as…
Being very aggressive, loud, drinking beer, watching or learning mixed martial arts, belching loudly, telling vulgar jokes, having a love of televised sports, listening to classic or hard rock such as “The Rolling Stones,” etc.
(The IFB brand of gender comp might be some of what I listed above, minus “worldly” entertainment, such as listening to secular rock music.)
But overall, you know, typical, borish, frat boy behavior is passed off as being “biblical manhood” by some preachers, such as Mark Driscoll.
Not all men fit that ideal.
Some men are gentle, quiet, and prefer classical music to the Rolling Stones, and prefer playing the violin to watching NFL on the TV set.
Guys who are more sensitive and quiet don’t feel as though they “fit in” in the churches or type of Christianity that pass off gender comp for men in this way.
However! Some preachers, churches, and denominations promote the “Nice Guy” version of gender complementarianism or “biblical manhood.”
Basically, this Nice Guy version of gender comp for men is about identical to what is taught to Christian women:
Be passive, be a doormat, don’t stand up to people if they are mis-using you, it’s selfish to have boundaries, etc.
These men are taught under the Nice Guy version of gender comp to be very passive aggressive, repress all their anger, don’t come right out and ask their wives or whomever for what they want, let co-workers exploit them at their jobs, etc.
And recall, these men are being taught all this unhealthy behavior under the guise that is it “biblical” and what God wants, and it’s supposedly what Jesus taught.
Christian author Paul Coughlin said he was raised this way.
Coughlin has said in interviews and in his books that part of his codependent nature took a-hold of him in his youth. His mother used to verbally abuse him and sometimes physically abuse him. He used codependent strategies to cope with the abuse as a child.
Then, when he became older and a Christian and attended church, other Christian men encouraged him to be even MORE codependent.
Rather than teaching him to break free of the codependency he was mired in, he was taught that being a really super nice guy and doormat was what God expects of Christian men, that it was what Jesus taught and what God’s design was for men.
But then Coughlin experienced some of the same epiphanies I did. For one, being really, really nice person who lacks boundaries does not work – gender comp teachings do not work.
Coughlin did a biblical investigation and found that the passages Christians often refer to in order to defend gender comp (codependent behavior) were mis-interpreted and distorted and/or misapplied.
Since Coughlin dropped all those gender comp/ doormat interpretations, he became healthier and happier. He now writes blog posts and books educating Christians on the dangers of these teachings.
(One of Coughlin’s main concerns are Christian parents who raise their kids to be nice, sweet, doormats, because such teaching leaves these children open to being abused or exploited by other kids at school, or vulnerable to being targeted by pedophiles. Some kids commit suicide over the non-stop bullying they receive by peers.)
I have seen Christian men on other forums and blogs a time or two tell of similar experiences.
I normally see the “macho, boss, in-charge, manly-man, he-man” aggressive form of gender comp taught to men, but every so often, I do come across Christian men who say on other forums they had the “Nice Guy” version of gender comp forced on them by their church, and it hurt them deeply.
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BTW, I don’t know how Tony Miano would be surviving without his wife’s steady employment. Just last week he was asking for $800 for another 2 weeks of living expenses. How come she’s out working and he isn’t doing well at bringing home the bacon? He must not be getting his hands bloody, Sage?
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Julie Anne Re: MAY 7, 2015 @ 8:14 AM
I honestly cannot tell if that guy is for real or a Poe troll. If he is a Poe, I have invested way too much time replying to him. 🙂
Katy Re: MAY 7, 2015 @ 8:21 AM
Thank you, Katy, that was very sweet.
I am touched that any of my comments or posts have helped you that much. Sometimes I visit blogs like this to find comfort for my problems, but it’s good to know I’ve been able to help others at all.
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“Just last week he was asking for $800 for another 2 weeks of living expenses.”
What does this vague phrase mean…living expenses? Groceries? Gas? Starbucks and fast food? Remember when he wrote last year about needing donations to meet “payroll?” (For his volunteer staff??)
Maybe living expenses means tweeting a pic of his new “war bag” (murse) that he just got…’cause he’s all about going to war for souls (except in dangerous places).
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Katy said,
Sage told me that Galatians 3:28 was the “verse I hang my hat on.”
The fact is, that verse is in the Bible, but gender comps try to water down its meaning, or pretend that it is referring to “salvation”.
I don’t see how they can cherry pick one verse about “I forbid a woman not to teach” (never mind there are examples in the NT of women teaching men and God is fine with it, eg., Acts 18:24-26, Acts 2:18, 2 Timothy 3:14-15 [I believe this was referencing the grandma who taught her grandson the Bible?], etc), and then ignore something like Galatians 3:28.
From Acts 18:24-26 (Christian women teach a man and correct his lack of knowledge):
There’s an example right there of a woman teaching a man. With God’s approval.
I do recall another gender comp guy visited this blog several months ago, and Gal 3:28 seemed to bug him. I am wondering if Sage is the same as this other guy?
I can’t remember what the other guy’s screen name was, but he too had some kind of pet peeve over Galatians 3:28 and kept going on and on about how much he hated feminism.
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“I’m sure they love carrying the burden of loving even unto death ”
Is loving your wife unto death hard for you sage? Why didn’t God hardwire men to love their wives unto death, if he hardwired men to do anything?
My cousin is an atheist and he would never consider loving his wife unto death a burden, but I guess he is just better then you.
“I’m sure they love working till their hands bleed.”
You know sage my grandmothers, all born and raised in church worked till their hands bleed, so has my mother who was married to a comp man. Loretta Lynn actually has a song that talks about her mothers hands bleeding.
“I’m sure the burdens they carry of being teachers and preachers are a thrill- from being judged more harshly to being accountable for their actions and words to God.”
Please, they all are desperate to tell other people how to live, and what is wrong with everybody else. It is a very cushy self-serving job, nothing a dictator wouldn’t want to do. Doug Phillips, Bill Gothard, Jack Schaap. were not worried about what god thinks, I think all these men were comp.
My father was deacon and Sunday school teacher at my grandfathers church and he was on cloud nine because other people were subject to him and had do whatever he said.
“I’m sure the men love going off to war to fight & die to keep their women and children safe. I’m sure men have never said this ain’t working for me. This is hard. I don’t like this.”
And in the 60s it was decided to be cruel to force men to go to war, now women choose to go to war also. This really upset men like my father who wanted to go to war, but couldn’t, it upset him because women were stealing men’s thunder.
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How convenient it is for Sage to ignore the woman at the well. Jesus chose a woman to converse with and then had her tell others (yes, including men) the Good News. If my memory serves me right, Jesus appeared to two women first after his resurrection so they could witness his glory. Jesus considered women very reliable witnesses and communicators. As for the disciples, in the culture of Jesus’ day a female disciple would probably have been too radical for the Jews of that time. However, Jesus’ attitude towards women was very progressive.
For any trolls out there, it is very difficult to take anyone seriously who 1) doesn’t check their spelling (indicates ignorance) and 2) makes personal attacks on others who may hold a different point of view. Once you fall back on personal insults, you have lost the argument.
JA, what does “preacher of the Law (and Gospel)” on CON’s card mean? Didn’t Jesus say he came to fulfill the Law? Didn’t Jesus criticize the Pharicees for their obsession with the Law? Maybe you can set me straight!
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Julie Anne said,
I agree. Sometimes gender roles as defined by gender complementarians cannot and do not work in real life.
Sometimes in a pathetic fashion, gender comps will try very hard to make them fit, like trying to pound a round peg into a square hole.
Over at the other blog (this was a few years ago), someone posted a link to a gender comp site, or it was the main feature of a blog post there, I forget exactly. I was dumbfounded by the story.
In the story, a gender comp couple married. The husband had brain damage (due to having served in the Marines, I think, was hit by a road side bomb? Or maybe due to a car accident, I can’t recall the details).
Anyway. The wife had to take over all duties in the marriage, even the ones formerly done by the husband, the roles and duties considered by many gender comps the “man’s role,” like getting the oil changed in the car, financial decisions, etc.
Do you know, that even though this wife had taken over BOTH roles that the gender comps define, one being for the man, the other for the woman, that this gender comp site (which was like CBMW or John Piper’s site, I forget who) still defined the man in that marriage as the “head”, said the wife was being properly submissive, that their marriage was the very picture of a gender comp marriage, even though functionally, it was based more on egalitarian principles!!!
Her spouse was brain damaged and in a wheelchair and had little to no understanding of anything going on around him. He was not mentally (or physically) capable of participating much if at all in their marriage.
So, his wife was actually “the head” in the marriage, if we define “head” as gender comps do (the boss, who makes all the choices, who is in charge, etc). But gender comps still got intellectually dishonest and tried to hold that marriage up as being one conformed to gender comp. but it was not. That marriage violated several of the gender comp rules for marriage.
This is another red flag to me as how gender comp is dishonest and not biblical, and it lacks common sense.
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“If you don’t witness every day with a tract or your voice, then you should feel guilt.”
Paraphrasing what CON just said (watching him speak now live stream) and boy oh boy, this is one guilt producing, legalistic sermon, imo. I’m sorry you had to endure his preaching for so long, JA, if this is any indication.
GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY if you don’t evangelize every day — oh… and MEN preach, WOMEN share. Sharing the gospel is different than preaching the gospel…men, I guess, shouldn’t share. lol UGH
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I did not mean to make my entire post above bold face. I didn’t type the end tag properly, I am sorry about that.
Julie Anne said,
I used to have a Christian friend, “Ted,” (not his real name) who was the same way and Ted was a gender complementarian.
About the time I was drifting out of gender complementarianism, this male friend of mine – Ted – became alarmed, and was saying some of the same things to me Sage is, though my friend “Ted” was more friendly about it.
Anyway, Ted would tell me it’s a man’s role to support a woman, have a job, be the leader in a relationship. Ted was a few years younger than I am.
However. Ted was telling me all this when I had a full time, professional, 9 to 5 job, paying my own bills (I also did my own housework, I cleaned my own laundry, etc) – and he was unemployed, living with his grandmother, and his grandmother paid all his bills, and cooked his meals for him, and I think she was doing his laundry.
Ted got engaged a few years later, and his wife was the “breadwinner” in that marriage.
The guy Ted fixed me up with, who I was engaged to (let’s say his name was “Jethro”).
Jethro and I dated for several years, were engaged for a few years, and Jethro kept expecting me to pay his rent, vehicle payments (which were over $1,000 a month), and on occasion, for his groceries.
Now, why is it that this solid backer of gender complementarianism, Ted, was allowing the women of his life to financially (and emotionally) support him, and he fixed me, a woman, up with a man (his friend Jethro), who allowed me to financially support him (Jethro)?
How is any of that consistent with Ted’s, Sage’s, and Tony Miano’s teachings and beliefs that men should be the strong protector of women and support women?
Some of these gender complementarian men do not practice what they preach.
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Ann asked about “preacher of the Law and Gospel. Great question!
Remember these guys are stuck on the law. When we took his evangelism class, the first thing you do when meeting someone is to show them that they are a sinner. You take them through the “are you a good person” test which is heavily promoted at Living Waters (Ray Comfort’s organization – Tony Miano used to work there, btw)
The idea is you show people who think they are good that they are in fact not good and thus, show their need for a Savior. We are all sinners, needing to be saved by faith. That is true.
The problem I have with CON’s method, is that in his world you never “arrive.” Even after you’ve been a Christian for 30 years, he stands at his pulpit and judges people salvation and keeps people in a state of wondering if they are in fact Christian. He holds people in chains, yet the Bible says Christ sets people free.
What I saw was a steady flow of people leaving as new people came. The people leaving sometimes abandoned their faith entirely because he had brainwashed them that they could never measure up. Our friend who was on staff and was fired told him that he didn’t preach Christ. He might have preached Christ’s death on the cross, but what was missing was the grace and the hope of Christ in those who are Believers.
Do you see how this method would keep people under the “spell?” Those who are worried about their salvation need to keep coming back and trying to figure out how to get it right. You can’t rest in your assurance of faith in this climate.
The people who are under pastors like this are often very depressed Christians. They are being spiritually battered on a weekly basis and told only half of the Gospel, the law, without the grace. So, in essence, I believe it is a false gospel and why I called him a spiritual wolf.
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“I’m sure we should ignore what feminism has done to the family- to children. To men. And to women- less happy, popping anti-depressents like they are going out of style, ”
“What was the normal 50 years ago is now considered abuse. You condemn your grandparents, your great grandparents, ”
When I was born all four of my great grandmothers ware alive, I knew all of them.
The majority of my family all the way back to my great grandparents were born and raised in church. None of them were happy, or healthy.
Back then when little girls were being sexually abused by their fathers they had no resources to escape it, no word from anywhere that it was wrong. NOW, they hear it is wrong, back then they did not!
Women who were being abused by their husbands had to live in it.
My grandmothers lived in misery, they were nothing but slaves for my grandfathers. They had no choices, no voices, no rights, they were miserably slaves for men.
My grandfather who was a southern Baptist preacher was in chronic misery.
Most of my family has never had the money for antidepressants, my grandfather who was a southern Baptist preacher needed them very much.
Maybe selfish abusive men ruined the family, I know I had decided at seventeen I would rather be dead then married to a Christian man.
I told my mother I wish I had been aborted, she told me she wished she had been aborted too. We were both born and raised in conservative Christianity, we were both miserable and wanted to die. But there was a head of the house, so I guess in Christian man world as long as there is a man in charge, but the wives and daughters are wanting to drop dead everything is good. All that matters is the man’s happiness and peace of mind.
Christian men always blame women, nothing is ever men’s fault. I learned from my comp, wife beating, sexually sadistic, misogynistic father that I would rather be dead then married. If God would send me to hell for not wanting to be married to a comp man so be it, hell would be better then married to comp.
But comp men are to self-worshipping, selfish, heartless, misogynist, immature to blame themselves, they will blame everything on women.
My loser comp father and loser comp rapist were vile enough to blame many things on little girls, RAPED little girls! My comp father hated raped women and raped little girls with a bloody passion.
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Oh! JA, That sounds horrible and cult like. If you are always in spiritual limbo,then Satan has won! Why would our loving Creator allow his people to live in such fear? Why would our God give this “special knowledge” to just a handful of men who in turn reign it over their congregations as if the members are just one sin away from eternal torment? I am always leery of people who believe they have THE total answer. It is as if their whole world will crumble if they truely recognized the mystery of God. Hang in there!
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@ Ann
“doesn’t check their spelling”
I am very sorry for any spelling and grammar mistakes I make, I am dyslexic.
My head of the family complementarian father decided my mother would teach us homeschool, my father made us skip grades to save him money on school books, he then decided we didn’t need school after eight grade, to much of “HIS” money. We never graduated.
It is very embarrassing.
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100pinkapples – – No worries about spelling. I can spell well, but if I’m typing from my phone, I’m horrible. I only commented on Sage’s because I’ve seen enough of O’Neals words to know that he would not make those kinds of spelling mistakes. When trolls come to the blog, I like to sleuth 🙂
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Sage said,
I didn’t see that part of Sage’s post the first time I saw the thread.
Women can and do serve in the military. Some women want to fight in combat positions… but people like you discourage them.
When you teach women from the time they are girls that they are not capable of, or should not perform certain roles, you create a self-fulfilling prophecy for a lot of females. Some women do buck the trend and chase their dreams, in spite of such sexism, though.
If I were a man, I would want a strong ezer kenegdo by my side.
If I were a man, I would encourage the women in my life, especially a wife, if I had one, to be tough, fearless, butt-kickers.
If I were a man, I would not encourage the women around me to be demure, timid, unassertive, passive damsels in perpetual distress, who sit around waiting for me to give her orders – which is what gender complementarianism encourages women to be and to do.
It would be draining to have to be the god-like figure to such a helpless, needy woman all the time. (And, that would be me setting myself up to be an idol, and the Bible forbids idolatry.)
It would be draining to be a “Bat Man” or “Superman” all the time to a partner. If I were Superman, I’d rather share my life with a Cat Woman or a Wonder Woman, someone who was equally strong, who could help me face the challenges of life.
You’re not generally going to get those qualities or performance from a timid, retiring, June Cleaver type, who spends most of her time baking cookies.
(God created most women to be capable of being Wonder Woman, but women are conditioned by society and churches to take on the retiring June Cleaver role and mindset. It’s sad.
God created woman to be a lioness, or for some to have that potential, but gender complementarians keep telling women, “No, you are to be a tame, domesticated Golden Retriever dog who takes orders and direction from a master.”)
It’s a shame that people such as Sage choose to focus on the biblical passages that discuss women being sweet and gentle, but then completely disregard the passages that discuss that God also created women to be tough and fierce.
——
~ Women in the Military / Combat ~
-UAE’s first female fighter pilot [Maj. Mariam Al Mansouri] led airstrike against ISIS -CNN
-Ex-fighter pilot [Heather Penney] recalls her 9/11 suicide mission -Seattle Times
-ISIS fighters terrified of being killed by female troops -New York Post
-Meet the Badass Female ‘Poacher Hunter’ [U.S. Army Vet, Kinessa Johnson] Turning Africa’s Scummy Predators Into Prey
-Blue Angels pilot [Katie Higgins] breaks sound, gender barriers – CBS News
-Onna-bugeisha
From the Bible:
Jael.
But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him [enemy of Israel] while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died. (Judges 4:21)
Deborah
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Diane said,
Yes, what exactly is the difference between preaching the Gospel and sharing it? Gender complementarians like to play games with semantics.
Also, American Southern Baptist gender comps are fine with women preaching and teaching Bible content and the Gospel to foreign men in other nations, but not to men within the USA. That is another double standard.
Somehow, in the Southern Baptist gender comp view, teaching / preaching overseas is “different” from doing so to American men in America. I wish they’d explain that one.
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@100pinkapples~
I make many spelling and grammar errors and am known to do this ….. too much lol.
It’s all good~
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“I’m sure the men love going off to war to fight & die to keep their women and children safe”
Many women and little girls die while giving birth all over the globe, always have, but you don’t want anyone talking about that do you Sage.
My sexually sadistic, misogynistic, complementarian father told my when I was a little girl that the pain I caused my teenage mother when she gave birth to me pleasured him. Basically my gross complementarian father sees child birth as a good why to get away with sexually torturing women and girls, and this same creepy complementarian father has a belligerent hatred of raped women and raped little girls.
My father called women or little girls Jezebel, feminist, slut, why? Because they did not kiss his male bottom satisfactorily, he could not stand to live in a world were women and little girls could say NO! to him, in a world were women and little girls could escape him. He was a very gross man who needed Christianity to help him trap women and little girls, who needed women and girls to kiss his male bottom. He was beyond embarrassing, but he had complementarian men cheering for him.
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This topic reminds me of the whole “should she preach” cult that became a popular topic 2 years ago with the publication of Miano’s book (it was becoming popular even before his book was out). I used to do street evangelism with a few different groups, several years ago. My method was to talk to people one on one, and also take a turn “up front” in public, reading my testimony, reading scripture, or reading a short devotional type gospel message (always full of love and hope) that I wrote myself.
My joy in this was killed when there arose a trend/ movement/ cult within the street evangelism community, where all of a sudden it became immoral or unbiblical (according to those who hold this view) for a woman to evangelize in public, verbally with words, in the form of a short speech or spoken presentation.
What did it feel like? Shame. Rejection. Guilt. Condemnation. Oppression. Exclusion. Being Power- tripped. Being “not wanted”. I also realized that some evangelism conferences were now “by men and for men only”. I became disgusted and lost heart. I realized that this “camp” was turning into an authoritarian boys’ club, by and for men only. To them it was about “authority” and “roles”. As I left the entirety of Evangelicalism (and institutionalized Christianity), I got my joy back when Jesus brought me back to my first love, Himself. He reminded me of how sweet it was in the beginning, way back in the 80s, when we first met, and it was so simple. He reminded me of His absolute acceptance, His gifts He gave me, His Spirit He gave me, His ability to lead me Himself, and my usefulness in His kingdom. He reminded me that it is He himself, who gives me my identity, and the work He has for me to do in His kingdom whatEVER kind of work it may be. My first Love did not put me “under authority”, as in, of men, institutions, systems and harsh constrictions. He FREED me to follow, live and be in Him, to love and serve people in many different ways.
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JA wrote~
“The problem I have with CON’s method, is that in his world you never “arrive.” Even after you’ve been a Christian for 30 years, he stands at his pulpit and judges people salvation and keeps people in a state of wondering if they are in fact Christian. He holds people in chains, yet the Bible says Christ sets people free.”
Exactly what I just listened to, as he addressed his fellow “soul winners.” Even they are missing the mark if they are not evangelizing every single day, and should feel guilt(as he claimed he does) for not preaching (men only) or sharing (women) the gospel every day. You have not arrived as a true, guiltless soul winner if you do not do this.
I chuckled as he said…men preach and women share. He who defines…wins, right?
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@Barnabasintraining
“Has Sage called us bitter yet?”
Any moment now, I’m sure. The rest of his/her diatribe has followed the script.
It seems that Patriarchy is Sage’s hill to die on.
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I love you Julie. You, Dee, and Deb saved my view of Christians.
My mother is shocked at how you all take up for people, we were taught to kiss bottom and keep our mouths shut. You scare the hell out of abusers, they want you to shut up and let them get away with it.
I love it when someone hates sexual abuse of children, it is sad that you were the first Christian I discovered that does, very depressing:(
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This is a question I may want to raise at the other blog, on their next post about gender complementarians.
I know on the other blog, a woman likes to bring up the conundrum of inter-sex persons. She points out that inter-sex persons do not fit neatly into a male or female gender complementarian box.
Well. I saw an interview yesterday with Julia Sweeney (Sweeney Interview, on Salon)
Sweeney played the androgynous character “Pat” on Saturday Night Live. The recurring gag with Pat was that in every “Pat” skit, other characters never could figure out if Pat was a man or a woman, and this led to all sorts of silly misunderstandings and jokes.
I have, in real life, occasionally seen people in public who I could not deduce if the person was a man or woman. Their clothing, hair style, facial structure, could have gone either way. I don’t think most of the ones I’ve encountered were intentionally trying to be androgynous.
Gender comps have definite ideas of how men and women should behave, how each gender should be treated, and some even get anal retentive about how a woman should style her hair and dress and so on.
What do gender comps do when they come across an androgynous person?
And again, not all androgynous people are intentionally trying to be androgynous. I could imagine how insulted such a person would be if some gender comp person assumes them to be the incorrect gender from what they are, or lectures them on the supposed sin of being androgynous.
Here is an excerpt from the Sweeney interview, Sweeney speaking:
—–
“… it [her portrayal of Pat] started out as a complete joke; I wasn’t trying to make a statement about sexuality or anything, I was really trying to figure out how to make this character.
…”I wasn’t trying to make a statement about sex but once it became popular, the people’s reaction to Pat was really fascinating. I didn’t think it was that interesting that you didn’t know if Pat was a man or a woman; to me, so what? But people felt very uncomfortable not knowing. People would ask me to tell them but I didn’t have an answer, and they couldn’t stand that.
…”We still have some of these letters that said, ‘We find it immoral to have a character that you can’t tell if it’s a man or a woman.’
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100pinkapples, (hugs), you write very clear, compelling, articulate thoughts.
Daisy, while I have the feeling that your words may be lost on the (person? Troll?) you are addressing, may I say thank you for taking the time? I have found much food for thought and suggestions for further study in your posts, especially in this thread.
Sage, heartfelt thanks for bringing up the topics you did, even though your tone dripped venom and vitriol. The answers posted by others were extremely helpful to me. As the catalyst, I thank you.
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100PinkApples said,
That sounds familiar.
I was encouraged (under gender complementarian teachings) growing up to be that way too. I was taught that Christian girls and women are supposed to never speak up or speak out. I was taught to just sit and take rude treatment from people. I don’t do that anymore.
Since I tossed gender comp / codependency away, my confidence has increased a lot, I have lost most of my fear of people, and I can stand up to people now.
Other than my sister, who has a long history of being verbally abusive, me standing up to people the past few years has resulted in them showing me more respect, apologizing to me, etc.
(My sister has a deep seated problem, though, one that might take years of therapy to get over.) But your run of the mill rude person? If you stand up to them, they will generally back down and/or apologize to you once you stand up to them.
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@ refugee MAY 7, 2015 @ 1:24 PM
Thank you, refugee.
I apologize if I appear to dominate some of these threads. I don’t mean to.
I don’t have many people I can talk to about these things. And some of these topics really bother me, which is why I tend to go on and on about them. I hope I’m not annoying anyone in the process.
Ditching the gender complementarian / doormat (codependent) life style and mindset, which was drilled into me by my Christian family and churches from the time I was a kid, has been very freeing.
I am hoping maybe another person who grew up similar to me can read my experiences and learn from them and find freedom too. Being a woman and a Christian does not mean you are second class, and you don’t have to be a doormat! 🙂
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Thank you, 100pinkapples. I discovered early on that my experience was not a unique one and so many of us are working through similar church challenges. So many here have given me the strength and encouragement to continue. I’m so grateful for you and them. I love that we can learn from each other and hopefully find and experience what true Christianity is through this mess.
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“Like” “Like” “Like and “Like to;
Julie Anne
100pinkapples
refugee
Daisy
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@Barnabasintraining
“Has Sage called us bitter yet?”
Any moment now, I’m sure. The rest of his/her diatribe has followed the script.
It seems that Patriarchy is Sage’s hill to die on.
Ah patriarchy. OK.
I have to admit I haven’t read anything Sage has written after the I don’t know a thing about these people except that JA, et al are lying about them thing. S/he sort of lost me there.
And I’m OK with that. 🙂
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Regarding my list of women in the military in my post of MAY 7, 2015 @ 12:27 PM
I just saw this:
Trailblazing female Air Force pilot makes history as first woman to fly new F-35 fighter jet (on Daily Mail’s site)
May 7, 2015
-Lt. Col. Christine Mau got inside the cockpit of the new F-35 Lightning II on Tuesday for her first flight
-Mau is the first woman to fly the new fighter jet, which will replace the older F-16s and A-10s starting next year
-Mau is a decorated Airwoman, having also served in the first all-female air mission in Afghanistan in 2011
Also from the article:
—–
“She [pilot Mau] says she likes working in the Air Force, since she thinks planes give both men and women equal footing.
‘Flying is a great equalizer,’ Mau said. ‘The plane doesn’t know or care about your gender as a pilot, nor do the ground troops who need your support. You just have to perform.'”
This wasn’t the first time that Mau has made history either.
In 2011, Mau and three other woman took part in the first all-female combat mission over Afghanistan.
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I just thought of something else I wanted to add.
Sage wrote,
It’s not like Christians ever got what Paul and Jesus said incorrect before…
It’s not as though Christians ever used the teachings of Jesus and Paul to justify keeping black American people in slavery or anything.
Oh wait.
How the Bible was used to justify slavery, abolitionism
Southern Baptists Apologize For Slavery Stance
Some American Christians in the 19th century thought that the Bible clearly and obviously, when literally read and understood, taught that it was acceptable for white Americans to own black people.
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Your essential problem is you keep calling Julie Anne a “liar” and words even less kind than that, but you never mention a specific. Not one. Is that the way Jesus did it? Paul? Peter? John? James? Anyone who truly loves the Lord and loves truth? No. But that’s the way you do it. Either put up or shut up. If you can’t put up, them I’m going to call you a libeler, which is exactly what you are when you type up your ungrammatical, 7th grade education-level rants–unless, of course, there is some truth to them. Be specific. Repent yourself, look in the mirror.
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The previous post addressed, of course, to our apparently-halting-grasp-on-sanity resident troll, Sage.
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“For you cross Heaven and Earth to make one convert, and when you do you make him twice the child of Hell as yourselves!”
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The conference seminars:
Qualifications for Soul-Winning – You need to be “qualified” to evangelize?
Soul-Saving: Our One Business – If you’re not doing it, you’re not saved.
The Cost of Being A Soul Winner – How to live off of other people’s money so you can evangelize.
Compassion Required – Especially in chaotic times, tweeting is a way to reach people.
Presuppositional Apologetics – ???
How to Win Souls for Christ – Seriously, you don’t know how to do this by now?
Instruction in Soul-Winning – In case you didn’t get it during the seminar before this one.
The Soul-winner’s Reward – How to say you are blessed in a humble way.
Encouragement to Soul-Winners – How to respond to those who call you out on your insensitive tweets and how you treat people on the street (as seen on your video recordings).
Prayer (from Soul-Winning Explained) – Pray the right way.
Presuppositional Apologetics – Awww….not this again!
Gospel Equippers – How to read the Bible the right way.
The Majesty of God in Evangelism – All for God’s glory!
Evangelism and the Family – She shall not preach!
“Dangerous” – In quotes, so it can’t be all that dangerous.
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@Daisy:
My Dear Wormwood,
I refer you to my previous epistles on Semantics.
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
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@Daisy:
With “benefits” (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)
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@Daisy:
SOMEONE DID THAT AS AN ONLINE JOKE PRECIOUS MOMENTS CARD!
AND I CAN’T REMEMBER WHERE I FOUND IT ON THE WEB!
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Kathi, you are hilarious.
Well, heavens no! Those men are going to be so tired listening to those authoritative sermons, they are going to need sammiches brought out to them. I can see the ladies squirming in that little kitchen right now.
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HUG,
Try here:
Biblical Womanhood Is Nothing (And Neither Is Biblical Manhood)
It’s funny how so many gender complementarians say they respect the Bible, take it literally, yet, they manage to ignore or explain away all the examples in the Bible of women who do not fit their gender complementarian biblical woman ideal.
And, it’s funny, because what they do is read 1950s American cultural notions of “ideal family and womanhood” back into the Bible, rather than taking the biblical text as it is.
Christians have greatly misunderstood the Bible before on other topics, and they continue to do so today.
It’s interesting and warped that gender comps choose to interpret biblical stories and verses in the most sexist way possible.
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Kathi wrote,
That is actually a thing.
Years ago, I was heavily into Christian apologetics. There are different types of apologetics, and one category is Presuppositional. I think a guy named Van Til started it, or promoted it, or was associated with it.
Here is how Wiki describes it:
It might be a Calvinist view of apologetics (or the preferred apologetics method of Calvinists), if I remember right – I could be wrong though, about that.
I never took much interest in this category of apologetics. I found it somewhat weird and very boring, which means I only skimmed over pages about it.
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“SOMEONE DID THAT [Jael from the Bible] AS AN ONLINE JOKE PRECIOUS MOMENTS CARD! AND I CAN’T REMEMBER WHERE I FOUND IT ON THE WEB!” –
H.U.G.
@H.U.G.,
Here’s that funny Jael cartoon, which Tim Fall had posted over on his blog;
https://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/biblical-womanhood-is-nothing-and-neither-is-biblical-manhood/
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Above, I wrote:
“It’s interesting and warped that gender comps choose to interpret biblical stories and verses in the most sexist way possible.”
I’d like to add a qualifier to that observation
I think that is generally the case with gender complementarians, except for maybe when they are engaging in apologetics with secular feminists who claim that the apostle Paul was sexist, or that they find certain portions of the Old Testament sexist.
Then, in some of these cases, I have seen some gender comps back pedal and try to soften the very harsh-sounding passages of Scripture that a lot of women (and some men) find troubling.
Gender complementarians try to make the starkly sexist-sounding passages sound downright egalitarian and pro- women-lib.
Gender comps try to put the best possible spin on these very sexist sounding passages to say,
“Oh shucks, no, God is not sexist! The Bible is not sexist! This was down right progressive for the era in which it was written.”
(In some cases, there may be a grain of truth to some of those come backs, but IMO, not always.)
Such as (these are just a few portions I’ve seen people dispute, I don’t want to list every single one)….
See this page for a few examples:
Top 10 worst Bible passages
-Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist?
-1 Peter 3:7
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
– Leviticus 12
12 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. …
Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
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@H.U.G.
Credit for that great spoof of a Precious Moments card, according to Tim Fall’s blog, goes to Rachel Stone’s father.
“Rachel Stone (whose awesomely talented father drew that Jael picture) pointed out that a real woman of the Bible – a Biblical Woman, if you will – is one who points others to Jesus. In her essay on Edith Schaeffer, Rachel recognized that Schaeffer came from a different time in our culture, one that sounds so different that it might almost be taken as a different culture entirely.”
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Another woman in the military story:
A Female World War II Pilot Aged 92 Just Flew A Spitfire And Had A Lovely Time
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Roza Shanina, Soviet sniper in WW II, is a good example of women being exceptional at a very difficult military task. That being said, don’t draft my daughters.
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I meant to add in those seminar descriptions… Repeat after me…”loving someone means telling them the truth no matter how bad it sounds.”
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@100pinkapples,
You are and AMAZING writer and an AMAZING person! As I read your story (abusive, patriarchal, conservative Christian family) a poem that I read years ago on a city bus came to mind and I found it tonight online.
Paper Matches
Poem by Paulette Jiles
My aunts washed dishes while the uncles
squirted each other on the lawn with
garden hoses. Why are we in here,
I said, and they are out there?
That’s the way it is,
said Aunt Hetty, the shriveled-up one.
I have the rages that small animals have,
being small, being animal.
Written on me was a message,
“At Your Service,” like a book of
paper matches. One by one we were
taken out and struck.
We come bearing supper,
our heads on fire.
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100pinkapples,
If you are still reading here, I just want to say I hate what was done to you. And to let you know, I am so thankful for your voice here. I should have spoken up sooner, I echo what others have said already. You are articulate & you speak with passion, you are a fierce force against abuse. It makes me sick to think what you and the women in your family have lived through. I hope you are safe and have been able to give the gift of ex-communication to the men in your family. God Bless you, & fwiw you are a lot smarter than many of the eggheads I know with all their degrees imo.
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@Daisy:
Easily explainable.
What do Gender Comps have between their legs?
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@Daisy:
“ABOMINATION! ABOMINATION! STONE THE ABOMINATION!”, what else?
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@Daisy (I seem to be replying to you a lot today…):
Sounds a lot like a core of Objectivism to me. I remember Ayn Rand (she of the philosophy of Utter Selfishness) describing herself as “The Only Truly Rational Mind Who Has Ever Existed.”
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HUG said,
There are some women who defend and promote gender comp, too. I guess they can be chalked up to Stockholm Syndrome.
I used to be gender comp, as was my mother.
I think gender comp is insidious in how it suckers women into it.
If you are a Christian girl or woman who is very sincere about wanting to follow God and obeying him, you will do anything to please God, so when these Christians (the gender comps) tell you that God truly desires for you to be submissive to men, to refrain from leading and teaching, etc, and that it would hurt God’s feelings or upset God if you did not follow those beliefs – you go along with it.
Gender comps exploit women who are very sincere, trusting, and devoted in their service to and love for God. It makes me want to throw up.
It’s kind of like that young guy who wrote the book “Radical Runaway.” He used to be this really sincere, sweet, wanting- to- please- God- very- much kind of Christian. Well, his church exploited that tender hearted nature of his for their gain.
If you read his interviews, his church lied to him about the missions trip they were sending him on in Africa (I think it was Africa), and once he arrived, he was lied to, duped, and /or manipulated by the Christian hosts there. When he came back and spoke up about his spiritual abuse, his church told him to shut up.
End result, was once this kid figured out it was a pack of lies, that he was just being USED by his church / mission group, he momentarily lost his faith, IIRC.
This is what gender complementarians do to men and women, but especially to women.
Christian gender complementarians exploit your desire to please God, and if you are conservative (as I am), they also exploit your fears of, or dislike of, or disagreement with, both secular and Christian left wing views.
Gender comps have you convinced (if you are a conservative Christian woman) that gender comp is good, biblical, and right, because it stands in direct opposition to those (-this is how they spin it or tend to think-) godless pagans on the left who don’t revere the Bible or take it literally, and the leftists who support all the stuff you do not (e.g., abortion on demand, homosexual marriage, etc).
Gender comps really exploit Christian women (especially ones with traditional values).
Gender comps exploit you and hood-wink you into thinking that making yourself a submissive doormat to male preachers and to husbands is godly, God’s plan for you and your life, and it’s all for your benefit, honest it is!
I suspected as a teen that something was fishy about it all, but I didn’t see this all clearly until around my late 30s.
There are a lot of Christian women still today who are being snowed by all this “biblical womanhood” (“gender complementarian”) malarky, who think it’s biblical and pleasing to God.
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Daisy Says: “Gender comps really exploit Christian women (especially ones with traditional values). Gender comps exploit you and hood-wink you into thinking that making yourself a submissive doormat to male preachers and to husbands is godly, God’s plan for you and your life, and it’s all for your benefit, honest it is!
Well, this is what the statute book in my state says about the whole business of reducing women (and others) to a place of servitude:
“A person who knowingly sells, recruits, harbors, transports, transfers, isolates, entices, provides, receives, or obtains by any means [marriage?] another person for the purpose of coercing the other person to perform labor or services commits human trafficking for involuntary servitude. Human trafficking for involuntary servitude is a class 3 felony; except that human trafficking of a minor for involuntary servitude is a class 2 felony.”
This is a relatively new statute. It will be interesting to observe whether marriage will be sufficient to shield those “Christian” husbands and fathers who, in the name of patriarchy/complementarianism, impose a dehumanizing servitude on their wives and children.
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I’m glad to see this statute and hope that with the statute, more women will be free from the clutches of their abusive husbands. The church really needs to wake up when it comes to domestic violence.
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