Pulpit and Pen blog disses on Evangelical leaders who claim 21 Egyptian martyrs were “true” Christians.
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In the face of unthinkable tragedy – the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, a contributor at Pulpit and Pen blog has gotten on his bully pulpit to criticize those who call these 21 Egyptian martyrs “Christians.”
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From Pulpit and Pen blog by anonymous author. Could it be J.D. Hall?
Southern Baptist and evangelical leaders were stumbling over themselves yesterday in a race to demonstrate who was the most sympathetic to our fellow Christians and these brave martyrs for the faith.
https://twitter.com/edstetzer/status/567171587326369795
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If you read the Pulpit and Pen article, the author does discuss the tragedy, but the main message is this: People, you can’t call them Christians when they are NOT Christians.
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Interestingly, today, R. C. Sproul, Jr. (who is admired by many of the Pulpiteers) posted a tweet:
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and a blog post today and had this to say in his article:
While Christians can mourn over the persecution of believers, they ought never be surprised or ashamed.
And he continues:
And as we are recording today, much on everyone’s mind is the video that has been passed around of multiple beheadings committed by ISIS against those in Egypt who go by the name of Coptic Christians.
I will be watching Twitter to see if Pulpiteers feel the need to correct their friend, RC 2.
The most disgusting thing to me is these are the same folks who are friends with Tony Miano, who some claim was persecuted when he was arrested in Scotland for using homophobic language and had to spend the night in jail. If you remember, Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland after hearing that his open air preacher buddy had been arrested twice within 2 weeks, also for using homophobic language. It was after those two arrests that Tony Miano planned his trip to Scotland:
https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/statuses/380386063279087616
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Miano knew the climate of the country and decided he needed to go to Scotland and made the choice to discuss the gay lifestyle in his Gospel presentation (because doesn’t everyone need to include that as part of their Gospel presentation?) and got arrested for using homophobic language. This “persecution” I believe was a planned event. After his release, he spent hours and hours on social media talking about his persecution in Scotland. It was easy to watch how he spent his time on his social media trail from afar (Twitter, YouTube, articles, comments on media articles, interviews). Tony brought attention to self and called it persecution. Why did he not use his time after the arrest to busy himself with Gospel work and postpone the media interviews? Hmm
So, Tony Miano gets the pass among the Pulpiteers because his Gospel presentation matches their idea of a true Gospel presentation. His persecution is bona fide because he passed the Pulpit & Pen test: first being a “true” Christian, secondly, presenting a “true” Gospel presentation when he was arrested = “true” persecution.
Award goes to Tony for having the full-meal deal: he passes as a Christian and he was persecuted doing righteous works . . . . . . . and everyone said,”wowowowowowow.”
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But those poor Coptic Christians. Nope, Pulpit and Pen is sad about their fate (and they are really trying hard to keep things kosher with their words under the sad circumstances), but you see, they didn’t pass the Pulpit & Pen muster. Because they were born into their religion and because Pulpit and Pen is able to judge the hearts of men all the way from Montana and wherever else the Pulpiteers live, those 21 Egyptian “Christians” died a sad death and will likely end up in hell. While they died a horrible death, they did not die the same kind of persecuted-for-righteousness-sake death, because they were not true Christians. In the blog post you can sense the sad violin music playing in the words because the Egyptian’s death likely means they all went to hell, so no trophy for them. (According to P&P logic, of course.)
So, that is how P&P is spending their time lately – going after Evangelical church leaders who are tweeting about the atrocities of the beheadings – and Pulpit and Pen feels it is their responsibility to let all the church leaders in America know this really wasn’t that kind of persecution – you know the kind that earned Tony Miano a symbolic golden trophy among his peers.
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Related links:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Sure, Tony, that’s fine.
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Sweet. Have some time to respond to this stuff finally. I’ll go through all the ones posed to me. First:
To clear up some confusion, I think people can eat whatever they want, and that if a weak brother thinks its a sin to eat meat, as the example gives, i think we ought to love them and bear with them and be willing at least in the presence to give up our rights for the sake of their weakness. But if that sam brother insists and teaches that if you eat meat you cannot be saved- that is a different gospel and goes from a conviction based on weakness and ignorance, to a position of heresy and the declaration of a false gospel which ought to be repudiated and rejected.
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The point I was making is that people can die for their false and still have a false gospel. Mormons would be a case in point. Different God. Different jesus. Different Gospel./ Very sincere in their beliefs
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I think this is where we differ. If someone wanted to add works righteousness to their salvation, I don’t consider that some issue of nitpicky “Perfectly Parsed Theology”
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Not at all. I have no reason to believe that synergists are not saved. The soteriological issue involves works righteousness. I got nothing but love for my Arminian and Amyraldism sisters and brother.:)
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He’s baaa-aaaack!
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Not at all. There may have been some confusion here- possibly by me for not being clear. I explained it a few posts up where i said i don’t have a problem with people thinking it’s right or wrong to eat certain foods. the issue i have is when these people say/teach that your salvation is somehow dependent on what foods you will or will not eat. that’s heresy.
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“BeenThereDoneThat
FEBRUARY 20, 2015 @ 5:26 PM
He’s baaa-aaaack!”
LOL. yah. I was busy. I work two jobs and had to work 3 back to back shifts. It was unpleasant, but I figured I would respond to people to talked to me not that i have a bit of time off, as I didn’t want to be a drive-by poster.
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@Dustin,
Just because Christians of different denominations don’t *do* Christianity the way you do (because of different cultural backgrounds, etc.) doesn’t mean that they aren’t Christians.
I just came out of an 8+ year ‘tour of duty’ of a legalistic, controlling, evangelical church that espouses what you and your church do. Their legalism isn’t love and isn’t advancing The Gospel. They are harming Christians within the church (even pastors/elders and solid families are leaving, long time Christians including senior citizens), harming the Lord’s name and the witness to believers and unbelievers.
And one of the things that the pastors/elders have in common at that problem-plagued church is this: Horrible relationships with their own fathers (either bad, alcoholic, addicted in some way or absent).
So…tell me about your relationship with your father.
P.S. When you don’t have LOVE you’re just a clanging bell as the Bible says.
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I do appreciate that, Dustin.
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I don’t feel all people outside the reformed camp are heretics, or even most of them. I don’t agree with the theology but like I said earlier- I got love for my synergists peeps. As far as sinful attacks on Dr Caner…I don’t want to derail this thread with that topic, though I will correspond with anyone who wants to know more, As for Westboro, I generally consider them a bunch of devils who we should pray for.
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@Dustin
Well, we can never accuse you of being “a drive-by poster.” You never have been here.
Did you happen to watch the video that Monique posted above? I can respect your right to your opinion, but I’m having a hard time reading it after watching that video.
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I agree with that first part. One thing I find beautiful and inspiration is the varied flavor and expressions of Christianity in the world today. The way it transcends cultures and personalities is pretty amazing to me, and I value and appreciate that.
Sorry you had to spend 8 years in that kind of environment. I know it can be difficult. I spent [thankfully] only about two years in a cultish, spiritually abusive church which was very painful to be a part of and then later when i left.very confusing and spiritually disorienting. So I feel you on that one, and I’m glad you were able to get out.
My own relationship with my dad is very good. He’s a good man who consistently set an example for me and my 5 brothers and 1 sister. He’s the hardest working guy I know and he loved us very well, and every week something comes up that reminds me of him. For example, I told my wife this story tonight, but I remember that when the ketchup bottle got empty and there was barely any left, he would give us the last of it, and then he would pour water into the bottle to “water it down”, and then use that diluted ketchup for himself. Small memory that I hadn’t thought of in years, but it’s that sort of thing that my affection for my dad is built on.
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No, not yet. working my way through the older posts and got distracted by this one. I don’t know what video your’e talking about. I’ll read it and get back to you shortly 🙂 And Julie Anne knows I only drop in every now and then. I don’t comment on everything, but i do read all her posts and lurk.
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Thank you Daisy, You have been very kind and discerning, and I appreciate that you helped clarify my position. 🙂
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Fair question 😉
It depends.
I am a complementarian, but i like to think I’m a pretty chill one. So i don’t regard women teaching as a primary issue, but i think it is an secondary or tertiary one. Mainly because I think that it is a sin for a woman to be the lead pastor in a church. Honestly I see it as open disobedience. I know that’s not a popular opinion, and no I will not get into the exegetical minutiae of why I believe that, but I’ll throw it out there. [As an additional observation, for free, it’s been my experience too that anytime a woman is a head pastor of a Church, there’s almost always other shady doctrinal things going on- often it goes hand in hand with being a gay-affirming church, for example]
That being said, I have known Churches where there have been men and women pastors that have been very fine, godly churches. I would have no problem calling these people sisters and brothers in the Lord, even as I disagree with them on the headship.authority issue. I would be united with them in the Lord, but unless they were the only theologically solid church in town, I would attend elsewhere as a matter of preference, much life many people here would not attend a strict complementarian church. Different strokes for different folks
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If Mormons confessed Christ at their martyr death, would that likewise be enough for you?
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Not at all. I’m cool with differing opinions. A lot of people, most of them much smarter than me, disagree with me on theological issues and I still consider them sisters and brothers. I like to keep as big tent in Christianity as I possibly can.
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These men “following” an old Church doesn’t mean anything to me. Personal faith in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone is what does, not the history of the church they identify with
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That’s awesome, Dustin 🙂 And I mean that. I have appreciated seeing a different side in you than we have seen in other Pulpiteers. I know we still have our differences, but I appreciate that you are willing to consider things from outside of your sphere.
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I should have read ahead. This is what I’m talking about, Dustin:
YES!
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‘I would attend elsewhere as a matter of preference, much life many people here would not attend a strict complementarian church’.
Dustin, I attended a complementarian church, 4th largest denomination in Australia, I now attend elsewhere, out of necessity, for healing because of how I was treated in that denomination, because I am female.
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@Dustin,
Having completed my tour-of-duty for 8+ years of a patriarchal, comp church they are just espousing the doctrines (patriarchy/comp) of men, and specifically the doctrines of men who have been arrested and prosecuted and/or sued for sex crimes. I ‘consider the source’ (creeps/sexual predators) when I listen to people shove comp doctrine down our throats and where it came from, the incredible destruction it does in churches, marriages, and families, rife with abuse.
At my former church they won’t permit Godly women to lead in anything, but they will support a Megan’s List sex offender leading. Go figure! I’ll take a godly Christian woman over a convicted felon/registered sex offender any day of the week!
The comp/patriarchal pastors I sat under were arrogant, mean-spirited, dishonest, and unethical. In short, insufferable. You can’t simultaneously claim supremacy over others (just because you’re a man) and then claim to ‘serve’ them. Buffing and shining your arrogance doesn’t make for a good servant. They have harmed Godly men, women, and children through their arrogant attitudes.
As for your claims that doctrine goes wrong in churches where women serve as pastors, the same can be said for the conservative churches and the problems they have: an epidemic of child sexual abuse in conservative, evangelical churches (and in comp/patriarchal churches). Source: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches.
After seeing the train wreck that the comp men have made of the conservative church, I’m just not buying their jive.
P.S. In case you didn’t know, many of the secret house churches in China are pastored by…women!
At this point, I really don’t care which gender I hear The Gospel from.
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”
dustin germain (@paperhymn)
February 20, 2015 @ 6:09 PM
“Tony Rezk
FEBRUARY 18, 2015 @ 8:45 PM
Thank you for writing this! I’m a Coptic Orthodox Christian and I am absolutely appalled at the notion that these brave men aren’t considered “Christian” when they follow a Church that traces its roots to St. Mark himself! “
These men “following” an old Church doesn’t mean anything to me. Personal faith in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone is what does, not the history of the church they identify with.”
@Dustin,
So? They [Orthodox Christians] do things differently than you do. And that doesn’t make them ‘wrong’ or ‘not’ Christians. The insufferable legalism and lack of love found in the American evangelical church doesn’t make people ‘Christians’.
As one conservative European Christian man said here quite a few months ago that the American evangelical church has more in common now with radical Islam than with the freedom found in Jesus. I concur.
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@Dustin,
The Rev. Billy Graham has said that his daughter Anne Graham Lotz is ‘the finest preacher in the family’. I agree and I have read her many books and articles.
If she were a pastor and I lived in the same community, I would gladly attend her church.
I tried the comp/patriarchal church and what a bunch of nut cases that turned out to be! (And I’m a conservative woman!)
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Thank you Julie!
First I would like to respond to Dustin’s comment.
Dustin said: “These men “following” an old Church doesn’t mean anything to me. Personal faith in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone is what does, not the history of the church they identify with”
I personally disagree, it absolutely matters the church they belong to, because the church they belong to, an old church as you call it, lives out her life in a clear manner and her believes are evident in its follower’s lives. Our church was started by St Mark himself, who was one of the seventy, if St Mark, taught us “wrong Christianity” in Alexandria, Egypt, then neither I or you are “true Christians”. I would hate to turn this into a debate about christian history, but if you don’t know how the early church conducted her worship then this will be a difficult conversation. Our church has kept the traditions of the fathers that we have kept till the present. (Don’t throw out traditions and tell me the bible is against it because St. Paul himself commanded Timothy and his followers to keep the traditions that they were handed). One of our patriarchs, Athanasius of Alexandria, I’m sure all of you heard of him, said that orthodoxy (or Christianity) is what Christ preached, the disciples taught, and the fathers kept. We can trace our history all the way to Christ, not too many churches can claim that. Now does that automatically immune you from error? Of course not, that is why it’s important to study christian history in its fullness. And if you do then you will find that the early church never believed in anything “alone.” There was no notion of “Christ alone, faith alone, or grace alone”. Worship was always communal. Christianity wasn’t a do it yourself religion. These believes didn’t come about till the reformation, and it was obvious that the reformers were reacting to a lot of church abuses by the Catholic Church at the time. If you look in the christian east, they never had the need for a reformation because they kept the same traditions and did not add to them, but the christian west had veered off with a lot of teachings that weren’t orthodox and thus a reformation was needed. So it absolutely matters what “old church” they belong to. You know the only time the bible says faith alone, or “faith only” is in the book of James, and it is only mentioned in a negative manner. You are doing yourself a disservice by ignoring history, ignore it at your own peril.
By the way, I am not here to pass judgement on anyone, I can never do that. I have my own salvation to worry about, and I am not God, and can’t look into the hearts of men and judge their spiritual standing with God. However, I think it’s vital to judge certain ideas or ideologies, while at the same time not judging people. For example I can love and respect my Calvinists brothers and sisters while I can argue that Calvinism is a very bad idea, in its theology. However, I personally don’t believe, and neither was I ever taught by my church, that Calvinists or other protestant denominations are going to hell because they don’t believe in what we do. That would be arrogant, prideful, and frankly lacks christian charity.
As far as the P&P article is concerned, below is my response.
This is what P&P said:
“Do Southern Baptist leaders and other evangelicals really not know what a Christian is or how you become one? Is it being born into an ethnic group that denies the dual-nature of Christ in his full deity and humanity? Is it embracing a meritorious, works-based salvation nearly identical to that of the Roman Catholic church? Is it in aggressively denying salvation by a personal, saving relationship with Jesus Christ? We ask because that’s what Coptic ‘Christians’ believe. This really isn’t new, and we have to wonder why our leaders don’t know what Coptics believe and if they do, what on Earth makes them think they should be categorized as Christians.”
First of all, I want to be abundantly clear, that the coptic church has always believed in the perfect humanity and perfect divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have not been in communion with our Eastern Orthodox brethren and the Catholic Church since Chalcedon because of misunderstandings, and politics, it’s a long and complicated story, but I invite anyone to look up what the Copts, and the other oriental churches believe in regards to Christology. We follow the formula of St Cyril of Alexandria, who was once our Patriarch. That formula is one (mia) nature of the Word of God incarnate” (mia physis tou theou logou sesarkōmenē). In this one United nature, Christ’s divinity is united to his humanity, without separation, alteration, and confusion. Of course no one in their right mind would consider Cyril of Alexandria a heretic. And we know Cyril choose the language of “one nature” because he was combating Nestorius who had held a two nature Christology, but the union of the natures was not hypostatic. Nestorius basically divided the humanity and divinity to such a degree that Christ was pretty much two persons, or at best a schizophrenic, God forbid! We are not Monophsyties and we anathematized both Eytuches (Monophysites) and Nestorianism.
Secondly, we don’t believe in a “works-merit-based salvation”, however we do believe that good works are a part of a genuine faith. The Lord himself told us time and time again that he will judge us according to our deeds. We do not pit works vs faith, or divide them, but rather we unify them. He who has genuine faith will have good works to show that faith. There doesn’t need to be a false dichotomy of faith vs works. See The epistle of St. James, and the Pauline epistles. Moreover, we believe that salvation is achieved by the holy trinity, who had begun the works of salvation, and we indeed have to respond to his work by our free will. (We are obviously not Calvinists) Thus salvation is achieved by the work of God and the response of man, this is called synergy. We can never merit or earn salvation but we are god’s fellow workers, and are supposed to work with God.
Thirdly, the only thing they got right about us, in a sense, is that we don’t believe in a just personal relationship with Christ, but we believe that we can be saved in the community of the church. Christ left us with nothing after his ascension, except the Church. It is within the church, the body of believers, that we can grow into a personal, and communal, relationship with Christ, and the holy trinity. If faith is really only personal then why would we need the church? The life of the early church ran in contradiction to “personal faith”.
Please forgive if I came off a little too preachy, I just wanted to clear some of this confusion up in regards to our Christology and our believes.
God bless,
Tony
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@Tony Rezk,
That was a nice post you made to Dustin. I would also add that the language that Dustin subscribes to (“Dustin said: “These men “following” an old Church doesn’t mean anything to me. Personal faith in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone is what does, not the history of the church they identify with”) is fairly new terminology in Christianity. And so if other people throughout time didn’t say that ‘exact’ phrase that Dustin subscribes to…then they aren’t Christians?
The problem I see with that thinking is that it doesn’t make room for the work of the Lord and the Holy Spirit…throughout time, places, cultures, languages. I give the Lord more credit than a large portion of the evangelical church gives Him, and I recently left an evangelical church where I had been a member for 8+ years.
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Dustin,
I have to agree with Michaela, your version of Christianity limits what Jesus can do. Look what happened to Paul. He was blinded directly from God and what a light he saw. Wow how wonderful it must have been for him to run right into the Living God like that. What amazing grace Jesus has.
As for the Mormon question; I believe there will be Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Presbys, Orthodox, Evangelicals, Armenian and maybe a few Calvinists in Heaven. All having placed their faith in Jesus Christ above the doctrine in their church. Now if you had asked it people who sacrifice their children in some Satanic worship, I would say, no. If you had asked if I believe in the book of Mormon, I would say, no.
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In reference to Michaela’s comment of Feb 21, 2015 @ 12:25 AM, it is interesting to note that Dustin omits two of the five Solae, sola scriptura (by Scripture alone) and soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone). It may be that Dustin meant no such thing, but it is encouraging that, in the age of the outpouring of the Spirit, no reference is made to Scripture alone. The omission of glory to God alone is encouraging in that God is not falsely made out to be some sort of trans-cosmic narcissist. Dusting simply gets it wrong where he stands on faith alone. “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24 ESV).
When Paul says we are saved by faith and this not of works, he must be reconciled with James. This is not so terribly difficult. Assuming Paul is speaking of the faith of the believer (and he may well be speaking of the faith or faithfulness of Jesus), then his objection is to works as a source of saving merit. For James, on the other hand, works are not seen as a source of saving merit but as the essential evidence of faith. Faith, which necessarily includes faithfulness, and which might better be translated “fealty,” is the narrow road by which we enter the Kingdom. The fruit of our faithfulness is God-empowered works. No works, no faith(fulness), no redemption.
One great fault of evangelicalism is that it has rested in faith-as-mere-belief without recognizing the need to cooperate, in faithfulness, in the sanctifying and transforming work of God through the empowering Presence of the Spirit. Truly, as Michaela says, Dustin’s formulation of the Faith “doesn’t make room for the work of the Lord and the Holy Spirit…throughout time, places, cultures, languages.” Inasmuch as evangelicalism has misapprehended the nature of faith (which, again, requires faithfulness), and inasmuch as it has embraced a truncated salvation which seeks only to deliver from the consequences and not also from the power of sin, it is to be feared that many who are on the wide road to Hell are under a delusion of false security.
Our Coptic brethren, having remained faithful to our Lord even unto death are surely to be counted amongst those of whom it is written:
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4b ESV)
Far from being excluded from the fellowship of the saints as claimed by P&P, they have entered the ranks of the heroes of the Faith.
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Gary W,
Preach on, Brother.
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Thank you Brenda R, and good morning. FWIW, I largely consider my contributions as consisting of bones to which you and others, having experienced the greater trials, must add the flesh and breath that brings to life. I would go so far as to say that those of you who have real-life testimonies of the redeeming and transforming power of our Lord are more effective in revealing the nature of the One Who is Love than all the expository preachers in the world. Well, with the possible exception of any expository preachers who have themselves suffered and who no longer preach, but only share.
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I know that I am a few days late in this, but Dustin stated:
“Suppose you met some people who told you they were believers. They stated they believed in the God of scriptures, believed that Jesus was his Son, that he died for their sins and that he rose from the dead. They believed salvation was by faith and grace, and that loving God and loving people were of supreme import. They were in close community with each other, attended their church weekly, loved their families and friends, served each other in sickness and in health, were openly evangelistic, took care of the widows and orphans, and created a loving environment in which they were able to thrive and affect the community around them. They only had one idiosyncratic belief. They believed that you could only be saved if you followed the OT dietary laws and restrictions. Other than that they were all good.”
Then he asks a bunch of questions:
“Could you be in unity with them? Would you let them attend your Church and mix and mingle with you and your friends? Would you consider them brothers and sisters in Christ and give them an audience as they explained their beliefs? What sort of actions would categorize your love and affection for them? Would you welcome them with open arms? Have ecumenical Church services with them? Would you draw them into your community and give them free reign to integrate themselves into your own service? Would you let them teach you about why they had their unique beliefs about how salvation relates to the dietary laws? Would you let those beliefs get in the way of unity, or would you dismiss that as ultimately a non-issue that you refuse to let divide the two groups? How united do you believe you could be with them?
My response:
Have you ever read the “lack of faith” section of the Bible?
Romans 14 answers your questions. Yes is the answers to all of your questions.
If those with lack of faith believe that they must eat certain foods, then you don’t trip them up, nor do you impose them to do something that you allow, because to them, it is a sin.
And, in Romans 2:14-16, it is clear that God judges us based on what we know, not what we don’t know. He judges us based on our conscience. And that is good news, according to Paul. For Jesus is the one who judges, not us. Your group has already judged. Why are you people playing God?
So, Dustin, I say this with all due affection to you…bite me!
Ed Chapman
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Ed, the only problem with your joining the discussion now is that Dustin retreated long ago. Seems he couldn’t take the heat.
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Gary,
Well, dog gone it. Maybe even if he isn’t in the discussion, maybe he is lurking.
Ed
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Ed, I see I should probably walk back my comment about Dustin retreating. I had not noticed his comments of yesterday evening.
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Gary,
Ya, I was just doing some back reading, and saw his yesterday comments.
And, Tony, I found your comment to be most informative. Thank you.
Ed
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Dustin,
And what about the heartache the Pulpiteers caused Tony, by declaring him and his martyred brothers as outside the Christian fold? Does that mean nothing to you, as well?
And please read carefully the response he made to you just before midnight. The men at P&P seem to be making a lot of false assumptions about Coptic beliefs.
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Tony, I really appreciate you sharing some background of Coptics and especially how you see it relates with Reformed. Thank you.
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Gary W,
Anyone who has received Jesus as their Savior has a real-life testimony of the redeeming and transforming power of our Lord. That includes you.
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Tony,
I agree, I am glad that you came here and gave us a clearer picture as to your beliefs. It grieves me that such intolerant and arrogant remarks were made to your/our brothers in Christ.
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“And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.” (Revelation 12:10-11 ESV)
Clearly the recently martyred Coptic Christians, our brothers, are active participants in the very conquest of the accuser of our brothers.
An with whom have the accusers at P&P aligned themselves? Well, with the accuser of our brothers, who is non other than “that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.” Rev 12:9 ESV
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dustin germain wrote:
“For example, I told my wife this story tonight, but I remember that when the ketchup bottle got empty and there was barely any left, he would give us the last of it, and then he would pour water into the bottle to “water it down”, and then use that diluted ketchup for himself.”
I love these kinds of human interest anecdotes. They cut across all lines of religion and creed and they appeal to what Lincoln called …the better angels of our nature…. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist can all find resonance and common ground amongst them.
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Gary,
I would give you a hundred like’s if it were allowed for your 10:27 comment.
Ed
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Muff Potter,
I’m wondering why they just didn’t get a new bottle of ketchup.
Christianity is easy, but people like P&P make it difficult. With them, you gotta jump thru hoops, and do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight.
I’d rather drink living water, than to eat their thick ketchup any day.
Ed
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I think you missed the point there chappie. Germain’s father put his kids first rather than himself. Belief backed up with action I’d say. If ‘good’ can only be ‘good’ with a certain coat of paint applied, then there is no absolute standard of good, only subjective versions based on the subjector and the subjectee.
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Muff Potter,
I saw his point not as the example of a caring father, but as a rebuke of “watered down” theology.
There is a difference between being obedient to the Law of Moses vs. to being obedient to the law of Christ. To them, Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself isn’t enough. They call that the watered down version. But to us, it is the whole of the New Testament.
Ed
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Thank you Julie for giving me the chance to explain our believes. That you Ed, Brenda, Gary, Michaela, and Dustin for the opportunity to discuss. I just wanted to add something else that I have heard around the Orthodox churches, “we know where the church is, but we don’t k ow where it isn’t.” Meaning we don’t limit the grace of God. If God chooses to save those who are outside of the Church, then that is his business, even if this is out of the norm. We obviously don’t believe in the total depravity of man, because we believe all men were created “GOOD” and that his original nature is good, but sin is a distortion of the good nature that we were created with. All men, are supposed to be icons of christ, and thus we treat them as such. God will judge us according to what we know, as Ed had mentioned already. To claim otherwise, then we would end up believing in an unjust and unmerciful God. Imagine God standing in heaven, would he ask us if we believed in the 5 points of Calvinism? In the catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception? In the orthodox concept of theosis? Or would he ask us what he made mention of during the sermon on the mount? If we clothed him, fed him, etc. Don’t get met wrong, it is important to have right believes, but it’s just as important to live out those believes.
Brenda, it’s okay if there is some ignorance, I accept that. I know a lot of people have not heard about us in the west, we only been making headlines the past couple of years because of the persecution we been facing in Egypt, but at least we have not seen anything like our brothers in Syria and Iraq, who are on the brink of extension. We been blessed to have survived in the Middle East for so long.
However, whats not okay is to make blanket statements about a community of believers, and not even present their correct believes in your initial argument, as P&P did!
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Pulpit & Pen seems to embrace the need to pursue a certain type of persecution mostly targeting those that don’t profess Reformed or Calvinistic Theology.
From what I’ve witnessed from listening to a Neo-Calvinist proclaim “if you aren’t openly wearing your suffering on your sleeve for all to see, then how can you be saved”.
My impression when you see Westboro and Pulpit’s toxic relentless attacks on social media toward those that profess the Gospel they are trying to fabricate some suffering and persecution for themselves in order to seek God’s favor.
As by appearance they embrace a works centered ministry instead of Christ Centered.
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@Tony Rezk
Thank you for sharing your faith with us. I know you came to this blog because you were searching for info on your martyred brothers. You may or may not realize that many of us who participate here have experienced spiritual abuse. My heart sometimes aches wishing that the church was everything I hoped it would be. Your comments have given me new hope.
Shukran, brother. I will pray for the Christians in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq. May there some day be peace.
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Pulpit & Pen @PulpitAndPen · 8h 8 hours ago
When you decide the take the “21” off of your profile pic for the next cause du jour, works righteousness will still be a false gospel.
Oh and reformation montana is coming up. gag.
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@ Tony Rezk:
I came across this other page by accident. Are you the same Tony Rezk who drew the icon here? If so, excellent!
http://lacopts.org/story/the-new-martyrs-of-libya-added-to-the-coptic-synaxarium/
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This morning in church we were learning about Spiritual giving. It made me think of the widow’s two mites ‘And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, ‘ and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. ‘ So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; ‘ for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God,’ but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.” Luke 21: 1-4.
It made me think of us Christians in western countries and how much do we actually give to God. I am not talking about money but about our lives. We give out of our abundance. These 21 men gave out of their poverty because they gave everything, They gave their lives.
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Dustin, yean, please just put a sock in it. Ye dinnae know whereof ye speak, laddie. Ye stand in the company of devils, & dinnae know, eyes blinded by the father of lies.
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Lol Hi Hester, yes that would be me! I was originally looking for picture of the martyrs to base my icon on when I stumbled on this website. I originally saw the video and was heartbroken, I had never seen such a large group of men being slaughtered like animals, and their last words were “Ya rab, Yasoo”, literally translated to, “My Lord, Jesus.” I was very upset and very angry, and I had to take my frustrations out on something lol, so I made that icon in their honor. Painting and art in general is very relaxing and helps me destress. but the good news is that these brave men have just been canonized in our church and recognized as martyrs for Christ. The Coptic congregation was really pushing for it.
Beentheredonethat,
I’m sorry for your past experiences, I know a lot of people who were spirtuality abused in some interesting churches. Please don’t give up on the church, The church isn’t dormant and the gates of hades did not prevail over it. I will encourage you to search for a church that you are comfortable with, but most of all, I will encourage you to search for a church that is truly grounded in its faith and spirituality mature. I hope I don’t sound mean but a lot of these churches where people get abused aren’t bad churches per say but their problems seem to be that they are spiritualy immature. No man is an island, we can’t do church alone, we can’t read the bible alone and interpret it correctly on our own. We need to study, learn, and apply from our Fathers and Mothers of the early church. Christianity is meant to be lived and not just studied. It’s not a mental excercise, nor a list of things to believe or not believe but it’s a life to be lived in Union with Christ. I won’t sit here and tell you to visit an Orthodox Church, lol that would be a bit biased, because I know there are still good evangelical churches out there that can still help you grow. If you ever need any sort of help or have questions, it would be my pleasure to help you. I know I’m still a bit young, 31, but I will do my best to assist you! God bless you!
Tony
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Tony,
I did come from a church that those more charitable would call a “New Religious Movement.” It was really more of a cult. It is taking time for my family to heal from the damage done. I come to Spiritual Sounding Board for the fellowship. The regulars here come from many different backgrounds, but, even when we disagree, we manage to get along pretty well. 🙂
Thank you for your gracious offer of help. Your generosity of spirit is familiar to me. I lived in the Middle East for six years while growing up. The only Christians I knew were expats like myself, since Christianity is illegal in that country. My next door neighbors were Egyptian Muslims. I didn’t know them very well, but I did babysit their young kids a few times. My family spent a week in Egypt in 1982. Our tour mainly focused on the ancient Egyptian sites. What I found common in many people from these regions are their hospitality and generosity.
I’m intrigued and blessed to meet, albeit virtually, a Christian who hails from that region. God bless you, too!
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I went thru Egypt once, the Suez Canal, while stationed on the USS John C Stennis. That would have been back in early 1998. I thought of Moses and the Children of Israel. I thought to myself, somewhere in this mess, the feet of Moses walked.
We were originally scheduled for liberty port visits to Israel, etc., in the Med, but plans changed due to Iraq. I’ve been in the Persian Gulf several times, with numerous stops in Dubai/Jebel Ali in the UAE, and a couple of stops in Bahrain. One stop in Muscat, Oman, and while the ship pulled into a port near Rome, Italy, I didn’t get off the ship, as I had just got on the ship the day before, after spending a couple of weeks and most of my spending money in Cicely, awaiting further travel to my ship. I really wish we could have went to Israel.
Ed
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Thank you, it was a pleasure conversing with you and everyone on this wonderful board! My only advice for you is to always be weary of anything that is “new and novel”, that’s usually a bad sign! I’m glad you had a great time in Egypt and I pray that one day it will go back to be normal. I think the Egyptian president is trying his best!
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At this point, I really don’t care which gender I hear The Gospel from.
As a complementarian, I obviously don’t consider it tragic or destructive, though certainly it can be misused and abused like all God’s gifts. As far as not letting women lead anything- I’m not cool with that. I think women can and should be able to lead many activities, though there are some I would not support. As far as sex-offending leading- if they have been forgiven by Christ I wholly support their involvement in the Church, with supervision and wisdom of course.
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It depends on what “do differently” entails. i’m on the record as saying that having different beliefs than me on many things is completely fine. despite what you say, it actually does mean that one of us is wrong, but it’s not issues that affect one’s salvation. but some issues can be, and I think specific issues surrounding the copts fall into that category.
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I would say that the scriptures and the revelation of God imits what Jesus can do. As far as Mormons…well, their Jesus/God might as well be a ham-sandwich, for all the similarity it resembles the God of the Bible.
That’s the trouble- when your Jesus isn’t the right Jesus [in their case their Jesus was the brother of lucifer, is one of millions of God’s, and in fact was not always God, but only attained that status as “God” through righteous living and persistent effort
Wrong Jesus, wrong Gospel.
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I omitted those two solas because while I certainly believe them to be of utmost importance, I do not regard them as primary salvific issues. That is to say that I think people can be Xtians and hold some really aberrant beliefs, like not believing in sola scripture, believing in evolution, believing in annihilation, etc.
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I disagree very strongly with your thoughts on my post, though mostly I’m sorry you feel this is an appropriate response to what I have said.
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Nah, nothing so deep as some illusion. Muff had it right. It was a reflection on how much I love this man, when I consider how much he loved us and sacrificed for us, and always had me and my brothers and mother at the forefront of his mind, and consequently what a good relationship we had, because he is impossible not to love and respect.
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Dustin, you said: That’s the trouble- when your Jesus isn’t the right Jesus [in their case their Jesus was the brother of lucifer, is one of millions of God’s, and in fact was not always God, but only attained that status as “God” through righteous living and persistent effort.
I’m not going to pretend that I know a lot about the Mormon religion, but “Jesus was the brother of Lucifer”. Really?? Would you agree that there will be other denominations that are saved? Catholics, Lutherans, Nazarene, Baptist, Methodist, . I could go on and on. Is there something about them that would give you pause?
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The safety of children in church is more important than accepting the repentence of a child molester as genuine. Many child molesters have dozens of victims before they are caught. And after they are caught, recidivism rates are high. It is highly repetitive behavior because children are the objects of their sexual desire and they are not attracted to adults. It is one thing for someone to repent of adultery; they have their spouse for intimacy but child molesters must stay away from any and all children! There is no known effective treatment.
A friend of mine dated a man at her church. He was a perfect gentleman – with her. He was caught molesting a very young child under the guise of helping him in the bathroom during Sunday School. He admitted to 200 victims, in the church and in the community. He grew up in that church, he volunteered to help the elderly (rides to church, lawn mowing etc.). He was well liked. He knew what he did was wrong; he had a lot of self loathing. He repented privately many times. But he never stopped molesting children. If he ever gets out of prison, I wouldn’t care if he repented on his knees and cried his eyes out at the altar, he still needs strict supervision from people who understand that recidivism is likely. While I would never judge his salvation, he had better not go anywhere near my grandsons. He is not safe. He would need to be escorted to the sanctuary for services and out again and be forbidden to go to the Children’s area. He should not volunteer with children and not even go to the men’s room alone. To allow a convicted molester to volunteer with children as in Michaela’s church is criminal negligence.
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Agreed. I would advocate no contact with children of any kind, as well as constant supervision while at Church. As in another person with them at their side, from the moment the enter church until the moment they leave,
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Dustin,
Do you need to see recognizable persecution among Christians?
I ask because a Neo-Calvinist proclaimed 3 weeks into his tenure that he didn’t see enough recognizable persecution among any of the church body to be saved.
My impression throughout his tenure was to pursue and even fabricate spiritual turmoil even if it meant keeping his Neo-Calvinist heavy handed doctrine a mystery throughout his entire 2 year tenure.
(a tenure he based his methodology on “Truth”)
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Dustin,
You had said:
“I disagree very strongly with your thoughts on my post, though mostly I’m sorry you feel this is an appropriate response to what I have said.”
Do you care to elaborate? You asked specific questions, and I gave you a biblical answer. How can you disagree with THAT biblical response? I’m not getting you at all.
Ed
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Dustin,
My impression is the basis for fabricating spiritual turmoil was stimulating his desire to be persecuted, in order find find favor with God,,,,even if he lied in failing offer full disclosure to the body.
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Dustin,
You had said:
“Nah, nothing so deep as some illusion. Muff had it right. It was a reflection on how much I love this man, when I consider how much he loved us and sacrificed for us, and always had me and my brothers and mother at the forefront of his mind, and consequently what a good relationship we had, because he is impossible not to love and respect.”
Oh…so that is why you put quotations around “watered down”. No one on a religious topic board puts quotations around “watered down” to uplift a father! It’s always a rebuke of doctrines.
Nah…not buying it.
Ed
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Dustin quoted me and stated:
“….So, Dustin, I say this with all due affection to you…bite me!
Ed Chapman//
I disagree very strongly with your thoughts on my post, though mostly I’m sorry you feel this is an appropriate response to what I have said.”
My response:
You represent P&P, so why wouldn’t I say that? You belong to a group of people that was hell bent on calling a boy a liar about heaven, and we all know that his confession is not from him. Someone else confessed for him. Or, if it was from him, it’s a forced feigned confession.
Nothing like a good ole fashioned Baptist Christian book burning ceremony, huh?
No worries, tho…I have the book in PDF Form on my desktop.
Ed
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Dustin,
This is off topic for a brief moment, but it pertains to my last post in regards to Malarky:
2 Cor 12:1-4, Paul was there. So, we already have it that people die, and go to heaven, come back, and has the ability to tell about it.
Why did Paul not tell his whole story of that?
1. It was a conversation carried over from chapter 11 where he didn’t want to brag about himself, except by telling people about his hardships.
2. He hid the fact that he was talking about himself.
3. He WANTED to brag about it. He wanted to brag about so bad, and THAT was the thorn. That thorn was Satan telling him to “BRAG ABOUT YOURSELF, PAUL.”
4. So, he wasn’t going to brag about those things, which is why he put it in a third person.
I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, begins 2 Cor 12:2.
There is no doubt that Paul was discussing himself in that:
Acts 14:19
And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
HOWEVER, even if he wasn’t Paul in 2 Cor 12, Paul left the door open in those 4 verses that states that it is possible for someone to die (and Paul did die, as he was dragged out of the city after being stoned…to death), see heaven, and come back to tell about it. When he puts this in a 3rd person, even tho he really is discussing himself, he is showing that OTHER PEOPLE may have a story to tell.
He stated that he knew someone that had been there. But if you were to tell Pulpit and Pen folks, they would have called Paul a liar, or at least told Paul that the person that told Paul was the liar.
Paul didn’t tell about his experience because he didn’t want to brag about himself.
That is a seed to show that people have stories to tell.
Next:
His mother CANNOT believe her child, all due to the fact that she is in lock step with the doctrines of John MacArthur, JD Hall, and other big names that preach against it. And because their so-called “experts” don’t believe it, and preach against it, the mother has NO CHOICE but to preach against it herself, and therefore, her kid is now known as a liar, for in his phoney confession, he states that he lied. But I don’t believe that he lied. But he now has a COERCED admission of guilt. This is a feigned confession. He knows what he saw, and now he is CONDEMNED as a liar, all because mommy doesn’t believe him. And what’s more, is that she is being courted, so to speak, by some REALLY big name people who have major influence to get books removed.
Next:
We believe that the gifts are for today, for the scripture states “WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT COME, THEN” those gifts will NO LONGER BE NEEDED, but that LOVE NEVER CEASES. 1 Cor 13. The conversation of gifts began in chapter 12. The gifts are needed today. That is why they are not done away with.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Those are all the gifts.
1. Wisdom
2. The Word of Knowledge
3. Faith
4. Gifts of healing
5. Working miracles
6. Prophecy
7. Discerning spirits
8. Tongues
9. Interpretations of tongues.
There are more gifts, too. This list is just from 1 Cor 12.
Seems that most only concentrate on tongues, healing, and miracles, bashing them. When do they end? As I stated above:
1 Cor 13:10
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Verse 8
Charity (LOVE) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
NOTE: KNOWLEDGE is one of the gifts.
Jesus is the one who is perfect, and he hasn’t come yet. And even when all of the gifts cease, LOVE NEVER CEASES (FAILETH/DIE), because LOVE IS ETERNAL (No beginning, no ending).
If these people who preach that the bible is sufficient, how do they miss these VERY SIMPLE words?
Finally:
If the bible is sufficient and men are not infallible as John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, and JD Hall claim, then all three of those people need to step aside and let the average pew sitter make up their own minds. In my opinion, some preachers have taken this sola scriptora thing to an extreme extent. They don’t allow individuals to make up their own minds. They are the thought police.
Anyone who has ever read the Bible from A to Z should already be familiar with the supernatural stuff. 2 Cor 12:1-4, Paul was there. So, we already have it that people die, and go to heaven, come back, and has the ability to tell about it.
Not only that, we should all know that we are a spirit, first and foremost. Therefore, when we die, we are still existing. Ghosts are not a far fetched concept, because when Jesus rose from the dead, his disciples thought that they had seen a ghost. So where did they come up with the idea of Ghosts exists to begin with? Obviously, people see ghosts, aka spirits. Our naked eyes cannot see spirits. God has to unblind us to see. Here is an example:
2 Kings 6:14-17
14 Then the king sent horses and chariots and a strong army there. They went at night and surrounded the city. The servant of the man of God got up the next morning. He went out early. He saw that an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my master!” the servant said. “What can we do?”
“Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Elisha prayed, “Lord, open my servant’s eyes so that he can see.” Then the Lord opened his eyes. Elisha’s servant looked up and saw the hills. He saw that Elisha was surrounded by horses and chariots made of fire
It is not out of the realm to see that the Bible indeed shows that supernatural things happen, and we shouldn’t be so skeptical as to call this child a liar in his initial claims. This child is BRANDED as a liar, no matter how you slice it. He is being used as a pawn by people with an agenda, just because they preach against what he claims he saw.
Well, in my opinion, those who preach against it are wrong. When that which is perfect come, then there will be no need for the gifts, and Jesus has not come yet.
Bottom line, his story is indeed backed up by scripture alone.
Ed Chapman
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Ed, I know you were itching to get back on that Malarky topic!! ha!
BTW, spiritual gifts and JMac are like water and oil. They don’t mix well.
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Julie Anne,
Yep. Dustin is a nice guy, so I know he can take it. I’m glad that he posts comments here, so that he can see the genuine “other side”, as to why we believe what we believe, using scripture to back it up.
Oil and water, yes. They don’t expect people to study their own bibles, without outside influence, which is why JMac made his own study bible. He want’s people to study what he concluded, rather than letting people make up their own minds. He is their Holy Spirit.
Ed
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Word!
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Marsha,
What happened at the church Michaela attended and to her are both criminal. I don’t know if any of you that have experienced issues with pedophiles or sex offenders have ever read Clara Hinton’s blog. She was the wife of a pedophile who was married to him for close to 40 years and had 11 children with him. He did not abuse his own children. He was a well liked active member and preacher of their church. She is now an activist to educate people of the red flags of pedophiles and how they gain allies so they can continue with their evil. It is difficult for her to write because she feels as if she should have known and didn’t see it although knowing something wasn’t quite right.
She and her son Jimmy speak at churches or wherever she is asked to come. She was set to speak at a church and later told not to come when they found out that she had divorced this man. Priorities in many churches are truly messed up. Let’s not listen to a woman who can help us keep our children safe, because she divorced this pedophile. I don’t get it. Her story is very sad, but has helped me understand why adults did not noticed what happened to my sister and I and finally let it go. When I speak about it now it is more from a factual state rather than emotional. I pray that Clara will heal through her blog.
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Ed, if you look at their doctrinal statement,you will see that JMac and Co. don’t reject all the gifts. Among other things their doctrinal statement says “… He gives the church spiritual gifts. He gives men [women need not apply] chosen for the purpose of equipping the saints for the work of the ministry”
In other words, John MacArthur thinks the HE is a gift.
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How can there be five solas? Sola means only. One cannot say Jesus alone and add anything else. Those who subscribe to the logical absurdity of multiple solas end up attempting to worship multiple masters. For example, while they claim to look to only Jesus, the reality is that many of them end up putting their faith in faith.
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